Category: Near-Death Experience

the scientific study of near-death experiences.

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140. Dr. Lakhmir Chawla Frustrates Near-Death Experience Researchers

Alex Tsakiris
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George Washington University Medical Center Professor, Dr. Lakhmir Chawla, answers critics of his near-death experience research. Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for an interview with Dr. Lakhmir Chawla.  During the interview Dr. Chawla discussed whether his discovery of a surge in the brain’s electrical activity seconds before death might, or might not, be related to near-death experience: Alex Tsakiris: A moment ago you referenced the discovery of the first black swan as reminder of how science has to be prepared for unexpected discoveries.  Part of the frustration I hear from near-death experience researchers is, “hey, we keep finding all these black swans; where are the rest of you?”  They keep finding cases where patients report a near-death experience during a time when there’s no brain activity -- that’s a black swan. Then they look at your finding, which is interesting and surprising, but is quite speculative as far as being related to near-death experience and they say, “where’s the balance?” Dr. Lakhmir Chawla: I think that’s a very important point. At the end of the day, if near-death experience is going to enter a very durable research area it has to answer some of these questions.  Because right now we know that near-death experiences are very important to patients. So the stakeholders are very interested in it. So it will always have its relevant people who are very interested in it because it’s a big deal and it talks about the aspect of life when life potentially ends. What we’re suggesting in this paper is that we have an interesting finding at the time of death. It may have nothing to do with near-death experience, but the need to understand what this is or isn’t has a lot of value. Now, I’ll tell you, the other important issue is that we have patients who we allow to pass away and then we take their organs. Currently we use EKG as the metric for when they’re dead. Some people have suggested that you should wait and see if they have this spike because that may, in fact, be the border. And this has real consequences for the quality of the organs that are taken from these patients if they’re allowed to sit for even a minute or two minutes longer. So, the implications are beyond the near-death experience. Example of how Dr. Chawla's finding was reported Play it: Download MP3 (41:00 min.) Read it: Alex Tsakiris: Today we welcome to Skeptiko  Associate Professor of Medicine at George Washington University Medical Center, Dr. Lakhmir Chawla.  Dr. Chawla, thank you so much for joining me today on Skeptiko. Dr. Lakhmir Chawla: Delighted to be here. Alex Tsakiris: So, Dr. Chawla, in 2009 you published a paper with the surprising discovery that some of your patients who were very close to death experienced a final surge in brain activity and the paper has gained quite a bit of traction, media attention, mainly because of this quote of yours: “We think that near-death experiences could be caused by a surge of electrical energy as the brain runs out of oxygen.” It‘s been a while since that paper was published.  So first I want to ask you, do you still think that what you saw has anything to do with near-death experience?

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128. Dr. James Fetzer On Survival of Consciousness and Near-Death Experience (NDE) Science

Alex Tsakiris
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151
Near-Death Experience
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The author of, Philosophy of Cognitive Science, discusses why NDE evidence doesn't measure up. Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for an interview with philosophy of science and human consciousness scholar, Dr. James Fetzer. During the interview Mr. Tsakiris and Dr. Fetzer discuss evidence for the survival of consciousness, and whether this evidence undermines our current model of mind=brain consciousness: Alex Tsakiris: So let's take a big step back and say that when someone has a flat EEG they are not supposed to have any conscious experience, let alone the kind of conscious experience near-death experiencers are reporting. What you say might be definitionally true and all that, but we just have to deal with the fact that people are having a conscious experience when they shouldn't be having it. And that's highly suggestive that consciousness doesn't operate the way that we thought. It isn't a product of the brain but is somehow separate from the brain and continues after the brain is severely compromised, if you want me to say it isn't dead. Dr. James Fetzer: Well, as soon as you begin talking about an ordinary concept of consciousness you have to acknowledge that consciousness involves responses to stimuli in the environment that we access through our different senses, taste, touch, smell, sight, and hearing. Therefore, if we're going to talk seriously about a form of consciousness that persists after death, we're going to have to account for how it's possible to have sensory experiences for an entity that is no longer embodied. In other words, if you no longer have your senses, if you no longer have a capacity for taste, touch, sight, smell, or hearing, how can you possibly have any conscious experiences after you're dead? What we do know, Alex, is that when the brain is deprived of oxygen, the kinds of experiences that are typified by the reports of those who have these near-death experiences occur. Alex Tsakiris: That's absolutely not true, Jim. You just haven't delved into the. Dr. James Fetzer: Alex, that's all just fine and dandy and I did not previously express any concerns about it. You have been pressing me on this point and I'm explaining to you that based on classic criteria from the philosophy of science, your proposition of the survival of consciousness after death is a paradigm case of an empirically untestable claim. Dr. James Fetzer's website Play it: Download MP3 (28:00 min.) Read it: Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host, Alex Tsakiris. On this episode of Skeptiko we return to a topic that I've addressed many times before, and that is near-death experience science and how it squares with the mainstream science model of consciousness. That is, of course, that consciousness is solely and completely a product of the brain. Now I've wrestled this issue to the ground before, but it was really fun to dialogue with someone who I greatly respect and admire for his ability to courageously follow the data wherever it goes on a whole variety of topics that are certainly very, very controversial. Here's my interview with Dr. Jim Fetzer:

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125. Atheist Debates Existence of Soul with Near Death Experience Believer

Alex Tsakiris
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Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris and atheist blogger Greta Christina square-off for a debate on near Death Experience (NDE) science. Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for an interview discussing the existence of the soul and the science of Near Death Experience. During the interview Tsakiris points out the lack of research among NDE skeptics, "And really, if we're going to play the kind of credential game, you really wouldn't want to stack Dr. Bruce Greyson, Dr. Jeff Long, Dr. Pim Van Lommel, one of the most highly regarded cardiologists in the world who's been studying near-death experience for 30 years-you wouldn't want to stack them against Keith Augustine, who really doesn't have any kind of medical credentials. So I'm talking to you about published research in these cases." Ms. Christina responds, "There is what seems to me to be extremely shaky research and there's no consensus about it in any sense-in fact, the overwhelming consensus among neurologists is that no, these people are, I'm not going to say crackpots, that's too strong a word. But these people are mistaken. They're being led down the garden path by their wishful thinking. And again, when you look at the history of thousands and thousands and thousands of years of human knowledge, where supernatural explanations consistently get replaced with natural ones and it's ultimately when the research has been really done and it's been really examined, it's never been the case that it's happened the other way around." Near the end of the debate, Ms. Christina sums up her argument "...even if I conceded everything that you've said in this whole conversation, all that it proves is that consciousness is weird and that we don't understand it. That's all that it proves. It doesn't prove anything about there being an immaterial soul that animates consciousness. It doesn't prove anything about immaterial soul surviving death." Tsakiris responds, "I don't mind hearing your opinion, but you've got to back it up. You're saying that every time somebody gives you research you go and look at it and it's debunked. Well, tell me. Tell me what's been debunked. You haven't cited any real NDE research. You cited Keith Augustine and then you want to say Skeptical Inquirer and Skeptical Magazine?" Greata's Blog Post: Why Near Death Experiences Are a Terrible Argument for the Soul Play it: Download MP3 (43:00 min.) Read it: Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host, Alex Tsakiris. For a while on this show I've maintained that there really isn't a good, solid, scientific argument against near-death experience science. If you've followed this show  and you've listened to the guests that we've had on, people like Dr. Jeffrey Long, Dr. Pim Van Lommel, Dr. Peter Fenwick, Dr. Bruce Greyson (who we haven't actually interviewed but who has contributed by email), if you stack them up against the skeptics we've talked to, Dr. G. M. Woerlee, Dr. Kevin Nelson, Dr. Susan Blackmore, Dr. Steven Novella, or even Dr. Sam Parnia (who's kind of in the middle of this issue but we really have to put on the side of the skeptic) if you stack up the two arguments there's really no comparison.

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124. Near Death Experience Science in Bereavement Rescue

Alex Tsakiris
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106
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Father Rod Walton author of, Bereavement Rescue with Near Death Experience, discusses the evidence for and uses of NDE science. Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for an interview discussing the use of near death experience science in dealing with the loss of a loved one. During the interview Father Rod Walton explains why science is important to his work, "I think people really want evidence. Most people, once you give them evidence, it changes them. I often use Ken Ring's book, Mindsight, about people who have been born blind.  They don't even see in there dreams... they only can smell, taste and touch... but when these people have a near death experience they do see for the first time.  When the bereaved realize that this doesn't add up, it affects them. It makes them willing to listen. They're getting hope based on facts rather than just perhaps and ifs and pie in the sky." Father Walton also discusses the Christian churches unwillingness to accept this new science, "Many Christian communities have great tunnel vision. They're only looking in a straight line. They don't look left; they don't look right. I don't think they're searching. I don't think they're seeking. I think they're just following tradition and dogma." Father Rod Walton's Bereavement Rescue Play it: Download MP3 (18:00 min.) Read it: Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host, Alex Tsakiris. This show, Skeptiko, has always been about following the data. That's kind of been our tagline. Just follow the data and you'll find your way through these controversial, unsettling, breakthroughs in science and you'll come to a new understanding about who you really are. That's the theme of this show, if you will. But today's interview with Rod Walton got me thinking about what it really means to follow the data. In particular, the data behind near-death experience science, a topic we've covered a lot on this show. As you know, we've spoken with some of the world's leading researchers and we've spoken with some of the leading critics, as well.

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121. Skeptical of Skeptics, Chris Carter Tackles Near Death Experience Science

Alex Tsakiris
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Author Chris Carter discuses how Near Death Experience Science is misunderstood and misrepresented by mainstream science. Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for an interview with Chris Carter, author of, Science and the Near Death Experience. During the interview Carter explains how the acceptance of paradigm changing science like near death experience and telepathy wouldn't change science as we know it, "...I do not agree with you that the acceptance-say of telepathy, or the acceptance of the near-death experience as a genuine separation of mind from body, I do not think that would challenge any aspect of science. I don't think it would change the way that neuroscientists come in and do their jobs. I think that everything would be exactly the same. They'd continue looking for the same chemicals, the same neurotransmitters, the same areas of the brain that light up. They'd still be trying to work with split brain patients and patents who have damaged brains. I don't think that anything would change. Except, yes, their conversations down at the pub on weekends would change. Absolutely. The philosophical conversations would change. But I really don't think that it would impact anything in science simply because modern neuroscience is completely neutral as to whether the brain produces the mind or whether the brain acts as a receiver/transmitter for the mind." According to Chris Carter the real dividing  point between mainstream science and the breakthroughs of near death experience science lie in conventional view that everything we experience can be reduced to just brain activity, "Materialists like to claim successes in modern science have been due to a Materialistic outlook. You've probably heard that before. But this is nonsense. The three men most responsible for the scientific revolution, Galileo, Kepler, and Newton, were not Materialists. One of the reasons Galileo recanted his views is because he feared the Church would excommunicate him. Newton spent the last half of his life writing on theology. I mean, Materialism is an ancient philosophy that basically asserts that everything has a material cause. Therefore, the brain produces the mind. This dates back at least to Democritus in ancient Greece. It was thought to gain support from the physics of Isaac Newton, although Newton himself did not agree. Newton himself instead followed the Dualism of Renee Descartes. It was really the 18th century philosophers such as Diderot and Voltaire who spread the doctrines of Materialism and Mechanism. They did this in order to combat the religious fundamentalism and superstition, and the persecution that were common in their time." Chris Carter Play it: Download MP3 (39:00 min.) Read it: Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host, Alex Tsakiris. Before we get to today's interview with Chris Carter, I want to take a minute and tell you about something that happened to me this week. One of the benefits of doing Skeptiko and having it achieve the little bit of success that it has is that I now get books sent to me on a regular basis. Little surprises in the mail. A new book. A new movie to review.

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119. Dr. Pim van Lommel Transformed by Near-Death Experience Research

Alex Tsakiris
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222
Near-Death Experience
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Cardiologist and NDE Researcher Dr. Pim van Lommel discuses how his research with near-death experiencers has changed his beliefs about life and consciousness. Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for an interview with cardiologist and author of Consciousness Beyond Life: The Science of the Near-Death Experience, Dr. Pim van Lommel.  During the interview Dr. van Lommel explains how he began his research, and how what he learned from his patients led him to a personal transformation, "I started to ask my patients who survived cardiac arrest if they could remember something of the period of unconsciousness. To my big surprise, out of 50 patients asked, 12 of them told me about their NDEs. This was the start of my scientific curiosity, how could people have an enhanced consciousness when they are unconscious, when the heart doesn't work, and there is no breathing, and their brain has stopped functioning?"  Van Lommel continues, "When you have spoken to patients who have had a near-death experience, their emotions, their reluctance to share their experience with you... it's so honest. You just believe them because they're so honest. You get convinced that there is more than what we can see, what we can measure." Dr. van Lommel also discusses how his controversial findings have been accepted by the medical community, "The gap is not as big as you presume.  It just looks that way because the Skeptics are very active. The Skeptics have their own truth and they don't listen to somebody else who has a different opinion. So there's a gap and there will always be a gap. There is no discussion possible with Skeptics because they have the truth.  But a lot of physicians are a little bit more open, but they won't write articles. They won't write or tell about it in public. I know some physicians who have had a near-death experience. They said to me and wrote to me that, 'what happened to me now I've always said this is impossible, and now it happened to me.'" Play it: Download MP3 (40:00 min.) Read it: Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host, Alex Tsakiris. Before we get started with today's interview with Dr. Pim Van Lommel, I want to take a couple of minutes and talk about skepticism and a couple of things that have come up in the Skeptiko forums.

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118. Dr. Jeffrey Long Responds to “NDEs are an Illusion”

Alex Tsakiris
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Near-Death Experience
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NDE Researcher Dr. Jeffrey Long responds to recent comments by Dr. Sam Parnia regarding near-death experiences being a "trick of the mind". Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for an interview with physician and New York Bestselling author, Dr. Jeffrey Long. During the interview Dr. Long is asked to respond to recent comments by fellow NDE researcher Dr. Sam Parnia suggesting that the near-death experience phenomena may be an illusion, Dr. Long said, "... I strongly support any researcher that has a reasonable opinion about near-death experiences. I think the one opinion that I think is not reasonable at this point in time is the absolute blanket statement that NDEs are illusions. There's just too strong evidence forthcoming from my research as well as the research of others. I mean, by the time you have near-death experiencers with crystal-clear consciousness, the out-of-body observation seemed to be overwhelmingly correct in both prospective and retrospective studies, near-death experiences in those totally blind from birth, near atypical near-death experiences even while under general anesthesia, and it goes on and on. I think that's pretty thoroughly refuted... when I read the interview it sounded to me more like Dr. Sam Parnia considered NDEs to be a research question. In other words, that's why he's doing this prospective study. The comment that stuck out more to me is 'I don't know' in terms of what the cause of near-death experiences are." But when asked what evidence would suggest that Dr. Parnia's suspicion is correct, Dr. Long presented a highly unlikely set of circumstances, "for NDEs to be accepted as an illusion then each and every one of all of the following must be true for all NDEs: 1) The predominately crystal-clear consciousness during NDEs would always have to be an illusion. 2) Accurate OOB observations (out-of-body observations) during NDEs must all be false. 3) NDEs reported under general anesthesia, they all must be false.  4) The consistency of NDE reports, both from very young children who are not socialized, and older children, and adults -- the consistency of all those groups must be explainable by some yet unknown means. 5) We also have to explain the consistency of the content from NDEs around the world, including cultures very different from Western cultures. All that must be explainable." In conclusion, Long states, "therefore, the belief that NDEs are only illusions would require both: 1) the lack of acceptance of established and corroborated, extensive NDE evidence and 2) faith that science will someday have explanations for what we've already observed and find unexplainable." Dr. Jeffrrey Long: What Must Be True If NDEs Are an Illusion VIDEO: Stanford Research Institute (SRI)  investigations into ESP and psychic phenomena featuring Uri Geller. Play it: Download MP3 (31:00 min.) Read it: Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host, Alex Tsakiris, and on this episode of Skeptiko, well, I have a couple of different things I want to try and mish-mash together and create a show for you.

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116. Dr. Sam Parnia Claims Near Death Experience Probably an Illusion

Alex Tsakiris
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344
Near-Death Experience
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Interview with NDE researcher and AWARE Project leader explores limits of experiments on near-death experience. Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for an interview with the NDE expert and author of, What Happens When We Die?, Dr. Sam Parnia.  During the interview Dr. Parnia is asked why he suspects NDE is an "illusion", and a "trick of the mind".  When pressed, Dr Parnia stated, "...It may well be. You're pushing and I'm giving you honest answers. I don't know. If I knew the answers then I don't think I would have engaged and spent 12 years of my life and so much of my medical reputation to try to do this. Because to appreciate people like me, I risk a lot by doing this sort of experiment. So I'm interested in the answers and I don't know. Like I said, if I was to base everything on the knowledge that I have currently of neuroscience, then the easiest explanation is that this is probably an illusion." While Dr. Parnia's position regarding the validity of the NDE phenomena stands in contrast to most other near death experience researchers he continues to push forward.  His AWARE Project asks cardiac arrest patients who experience a NDE to recall hidden pictures placed above their bed.  This methodology has been criticized by NDE experts who give it little chance of yielding positive results. Dr. Parnia responds, "I don't know if be successful or not. That's an important point to make. As I said, I don't have a particular stance. It's possible that these experiences are simply illusionary and it's possible that they're real. Science hasn't got the answers yet. So we have to go fair-minded. Right now what we have is a setup that can at least, we hope, objectively determine an answer to the question." Dr. Sam Parnia Bio Video lecture at Goldsmiths in London Is Dr. Sam Parnia’s AWARE Study of Near Death Experience Doomed to Fail? Play it: Download MP3 (38:00 min.) Read it: Alex Tsakiris: We're joined today by the author of What Happens When We Die? He's a leading expert on NDE research. He's best known as the lead investigator of the AWARE Project. Dr. Sam Parnia is a Fellow in pulmonary care at Cornell University and he's a doctor. I mean, in addition to being a researcher, he's also there in the ICU saving lives. Dr. Parnia, thanks so much for joining me today on Skeptiko.

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114. Near-Death Experience Skeptic Dr. Susan Blackmore Responds to Critics

Alex Tsakiris
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264
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Interview with author and consciousness expert Dr. Susan Blackmore explains why Skeptics and atheists cling to her opinions on NDE science. Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for and interview with oft quoted near-death experience skeptic, Dr. Susan Blackmore. During the interview Dr. Blackmore acknowledges that dispute her reputation among near-death experience doubters, she has not remained current in the field, "It's absolutely true; I haven't written about this subject for a long time and I haven't kept up with all the literature, either." Blackmore continues, "... I gave up all of this stuff so many years ago...if you are a researcher in the field it behooves you to read as much as you can of the best work because otherwise you can't be a researcher in the field. I'm not a researcher in the field. I have not been for a long time." Dr. Blackmore also responds to criticisms of her interpretation of Buddhist teachings. In her book, Dying to Live, Blackmore stated, "... in Buddhism these experiences are not meant to be taken literally". This statement has been criticized by Buddhists scholars. During the Skeptiko interview Blackmore responds to those criticism, "Well, I'm not a Buddhist scholar. I don't read Sanskrit or original language. I'm not a scholar of Buddhism in that sense. But I have been training in Zen for 30 years now. I've also trained to some extent, much and much less in Tibetan practices. Most of what I wrote there is based on that long practice." Check out Dr. Susan Blackmore's Website A Critique of Susan Blackmore's Dying Brain Hypothesis by Greg Stone Play it: Download MP3 (53:00 min.) Read it: Alex Tsakiris: Today we welcome back Dr. Susan Blackmore. She's a writer, lecturer; in fact, you may have seen her excellent presentation at the TED conference a couple years ago, which is quite an honor itself. She's also a visiting professor in psychology at the University of Plymouth. Dr. Blackmore, welcome back to Skeptiko. Dr. Susan Blackmore: Thank you very much.

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112. Christian Apologist Dr. Gary Habermas Skeptical of Near Death Experience Spirituality

Alex Tsakiris
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163
Near-Death Experience
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Interview with resurrection of Jesus expert Dr. Gary Habermas reveals challenges facing Christians encountering near death experience science. Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for and interview with distinguished professor of Apologetics and Philosophy, and best-selling author, Dr. Gary Habermas.During the interview Dr. Habermas discusses how we should examine evidence of supernatural phenomena like NDEs, “… let's just say that we've agreed that it looks like Naturalism is the odd man out, so, you go, this is a religious world… where should we go? One thing I would caution against is getting too far away from the evidential paradigm where we say okay, just because there's a supernatural world it doesn't mean that everything that's supernatural has equally good data in its favor.” Habermas also asserts that while Christian claims of the supernatural resurrection of Jesus are well established, other supernatural claims may not be, “we have specific evidence for specific doctrines, like the Resurrection of Jesus would be the best example, but there are others... but when we're saying that John has a near-death experience and John perceived that he went to Heaven and met Shiva or met an angel and John's Jewish and he interprets that in his Jewish context. What is the evidence that John was in Heaven? I could have evidence that John was seeing something down the street and that brains don't work that way in a Naturalistic context. So now I have some ideas about mind being beyond the brain. But where is the evidence that John spent time with an angel in Heaven? Most of the take-away type experiences and most of the transcendental-type experiences are without evidence. There's virtually no evidence that NDEs in another world are evidence. Let me put it this way. What if I had a thesis—now this is not my thesis—but what if I had a thesis that said when I have this-worldly evidence I can make a this-worldly conclusion. But when I have other-worldly data without evidence, then I have to let that hang out there until I get some data to distinguish As from Bs. Otherwise, they're just nice stories.” Dr. Gary Habermas Play it: Download MP3 (75:00 min.) Read it: Alex Tsakiris: We're joined today by Dr. Gary Habermas, a distinguished professor of Apologetics and Philosophy and Chairman of the Department of Philosophy and Theology at Liberty University in Virginia. He's a best-selling author, lecturer, and frequent debater, very open to debating his views in a very entertaining and open-minded way. He's best known in the fields of the historical Jesus and New Testament studies, and he frequently appears on major radio and television outlets. Thanks for much for joining us today, Dr. Habermas. Dr. Gary Habermas: Glad to be with you, Alex. I'm looking forward to a good chat with you.

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109. Is Dr. Sam Parnia’s AWARE Study of Near Death Experience Doomed to Fail?

Alex Tsakiris
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273
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Cornell University Professor and NDE researcher seeks to verify out of body experience after clinical death. What will you see when you die? According to near death experience researcher Dr. Sam Parnia you may see a carefully hidden image placed several inches below the ceiling of your hospital room. Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for the opening round of a dialog with well known near death experience researcher Dr. Sam Parnia. Dr. Parnia has made worldwide headlines with his novel approach to proving whether out of body experiences of cardiac arrest patients demonstrate proof of an afterlife, or whether such reports are merely a, “trick of the mind”. Dr. Parnia’s group is using visual targets placed near the ceiling of the patient’s hospital room in an attempt to objectively establish whether near death experiencers can see what others can't. According to Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris the study is unlikely to produce positive results, “I’ve spoken with a lot of near death experience researchers. They’re telling me Parnia’s methods go against what we’ve learned about NDEs”. Tsakiris continued, “near death experiencers have been know to bring back some remarkable, verifiable information about what happens after clinical death, but there’s little to suggest they will see and remember Dr. Parnia targets.” Tsakiris also questions whether Dr. Parnia’s skepticism about near death experiences has led him to create an experiment that’s designed to fail, “it’s a subtle thing, Dr. Parnia public statements about his skepticism of the near death experience doesn’t mean he’s intentionally trying to debunk the survival of consciousness hypothesis… but it does make you wonder.” Watch Dr. Parnia's video lecture Play it: Download MP3 (17:00 min.) Read it: Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host, Alex Tsakiris, and on this episode of Skeptiko, I'm going to be opening up a dialogue with Dr. Sam Parnia. Now, the unusual thing about that is that Dr. Parnia isn't here and he isn't going to be joining me for an interview. In fact, what I'm doing is preparing some questions that I'm going to transcribe and then send to Dr. Parnia in hopes of getting a response from him. So let me explain a little bit about what's going on. Dr. Parnia, as many of you are aware, is a well-known near-death experience researcher, a guy who splits his time between the UK and New York's Cornell University, where he's a Fellow there in pulmonary care. What Dr. Parnia is really best known for is the Aware Study, a very novel, interesting way of looking at near-death experiences that's received quite a bit of media buzz, primarily because of the way the experiment is done. What Dr. Parnia and his group have devised is a way of putting targets-that is, pictures inside the room of someone who may experience cardiac arrest. They may experience clinical death. Up above their bed, very close to the ceiling, is a target that they can't see unless they're way up in the ceiling looking down, okay? So the idea is that near-death experiencers routinely report that they're out of their body, that they're having this out-of-body experience and Dr. Parnia and his group said, "Hey, let's devise an experiment so objectively see whether they can report information that only they could see." In other words, when somebody comes into the hospital, let's put them in a room. If they have cardiac arrest, let's go and talk to them and see if they saw our target that was placed above their bed that only they could see. If a lot of them see it, then this survival of consciousness thing must be real. If they don't see it, then it's not. So that's the Aware Study, and it's generated quite a bit of buzz, quite a bit of interest, and as the man behind the Aware Study, there's been a lot of speculation about exactly what Dr. Parnia's angle is on this research. I mean, is he a true believer who's looking to establish another line of evidence for the afterlife? Or is he a die-hard skeptic or materialist looking for a novel way to debunk all of this NDE nonsense? Well, those questions have certainly been stirring around in my mind for a while, but it really wasn't until a few months ago when a Skeptiko listener sent me a link to a video lecture that Dr. Parnia had given that the ball really got rolling in terms of inviting him on Skeptiko and trying to open up this dialogue. So the link that was posted in the Skeptiko forums is from a lecture that Dr. Parnia gave to a skeptical group in the UK, hosted by Dr. Chris French. As many of you know, Dr. Chris French is a very well-known, outspoken UK skeptic who's been on the Skeptiko show before. I think twice, actually. So let me play you the first of a couple of audio clips from the video lecture that Dr. Parnia gave and then I'll pick up and continue on with this story and what's happened so far. And we'll get into my questions for Dr. Parnia. Here is the first clip: "If, when you turn off the switch i.e., you turn off the brain, you don't get any blood flow into it. If people truly have consciousness, they really are able to see things as they claim they can do, then you have to accept that maybe Plato and others may have been correct. So far, we don't know. We've set up a study for the Awareness Study and we're trying to investigate it. And I think the key thing that we can do objectively is to use some kind of hidden target..." So that will give you a little feel for the tone of the lecture. Very reasonable, balanced sounding stuff. So I watched the lecture. I immediately had a bunch of questions. I emailed Dr. Parnia and requested an interview. He quickly got back to me and said, "I'd be delighted to talk to you, however, due to a number of commitments that I have right now, I wonder if you'd be kind enough to watch a lecture I recently gave at a skeptical organization, hosted by Chris French, blah, blah, blah." And he also added this: "I'm not so focused on cases where people have had near-death experiences in non-specific medical conditions. This tends to be most of the cases that people discuss and therefore leads to a lot of discussion, debate, etc." Now, of course, there's really nothing wrong with this statement. I mean, he's a doctor. He's interested in controlled medical conditions as they relate to NDE. Fine, fine, fine. But if you've been along on the Skeptiko thing long enough, you know it's not always that easy. Sometimes these seemingly innocent-sounding statements are really a coded message for a lot more. Like in this case, as Dr. Parnia is saying, "Hey, I'm a doctor working in the critical care unit of a hospital and I've decided to look at NDEs in that setting, period." Is he saying that? Or is he saying all this other NDE research you hear about is a bunch of crap because it's not done by a doctor working in a critical care unit and it should all be disregarded? Now, I'm not saying that's what he's saying, but I'd like to ask him if that's what he's saying, because you could read it that way. So part of this whole process of opening up a dialogue is to try and figure some of these things out. So with some of those questions stirring up in the back of my mind and some other questions that I have from watching his video, I fired off an email and tried to arrange an interview. And in the email, of course I tried to explain that I had seen the video, that it had generated quite a bit of discussion among our forum and I pointed him to that, and I also outlined a couple of questions that I'd like to ask, including some specifics about his research methodology. And that's when the tone of the emails started to shift a little bit. Now, I don't know if it was because of the specific questions that I asked or if it was because he finally took a look at the Skeptiko website and realized we're not quite as pro-skeptic as he might have thought. But whatever the reason, Dr. Parnia went from quick email responses and "If you have any questions, get back to me. I'll organize a time to speak," to long delays in our correspondence and "Could you please send me a list of specific questions and I'll respond by email. You can then post them on your site." Well, I still pushed for the phone interview. I suggested, "Hey, we can wait a month or two, whatever it takes. We'll work around your schedule." But he was pretty insistent on the email format and eventually even, you know, dished me off to his secretary to send the questions to-which is fine, he's a busy guy and I know he's got a lot going on. So in an attempt to honor that request, I am transcribing this podcast right now and going to send it to Dr. Parnia's secretary, and hopefully we can get some written responses to some of the questions I have, and some of the questions that Skeptiko listeners raised on our forum. So here goes-my questions to Dr. Parnia regarding his Aware near-death experience research project: Question 1, and why not start with a biggie? Isn't this experiment doomed to fail? Okay, let me flesh that out a little bit. At this point, I've read dozens of NDE cases and I'm sure Dr. Parnia has read many, many more than I have. But I've skimmed through at least 100 and I see all sorts of reasons why someone might have a near-death experience and an out-of-body experience and not be able to see these targets that he's placing in this experiment. So let me play you another short clip from Dr. Parnia's lecture and then I'll tell you more about what I mean: "And so if we get say 500 people who all supposedly die and come back and all that sort of stuff, and they call claim they saw Dr. Smith and they have all these incredible stories and they can describe what was happening, and we can demonstrate that it was happening when they're going through cardiac arrest and the brain is shut down, then supposedly, if they really are out of body, they should see that picture." Wow. I'm going to have to break that down for you and play you bits and pieces of it because there are so many interesting points to pull out of there. But let me start with the first part. I just think his numbers are way off. So he starts off by saying, "If we get 500 people who die and come back and all that sort of stuff..." which first of all, his tone seems rather dismissive, but take that out for a minute and focus on the number. Let's say he gets 500 people that come back and say they've had a near-death experience and they recall their resuscitation process. I don't know how he's going to get 500 people to do that. I mean, the average hit rate in these clinical trials in terms of number of people who have cardiac arrest compared to the number of people who recall their near-death experience is 1 in 10 to 1 in 8. So let's take 1 in 8 and say his 500 people now represent 4,000 patients that are going to experience cardiac arrest. Well, that's way more than the number that he hopes to get in his study. I think his study was 1,500. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. I mean, his big problem is, and I'm sure he knows this-I just don't know why he's not bringing it up-is that your typical NDE experience would never report this kind of information, this kind of target information. First, there's a bunch of near-death experiences where the person doesn't really recall the resuscitation at all. They recall other parts of the event very clearly, maybe the trauma, the being of light, the judgment, but they don't recall the resuscitation. A bigger and more obvious problem is people who do recall the resuscitation but the position that they're in in this out-of-body state, which all sounds very weird but it's really all we have to go with, but their position doesn't allow them to see the targets that Dr. Parnia has set up. And you know, in preparing for this, to give you an example, I went to the Near-Death Experience Research Foundation website and I searched through and I very quickly found some cases that will give you a little bit of a sense for what I'm talking about. Here are just a few. This is Barbara, a near-death experiencer who says: "I had been sitting up in the corner of the room, outside my body for some time. I was at the ceiling in the corner, watching and listening because my body wasn't comfortable to be in." Okay, so the important thing is, she's in the corner by the ceiling. Would she be able to see the target? I don't know. I don't think so. Here's Nicki: "I turned to the other side of the bed and stepped out of my body. I began to walk around the room, trying to talk to my living family members but they could not hear me." Okay, clearly she's not in a position to see the target. Now, I'm not saying that anything else about her near-death experience is valid or anything like that, I'm just saying that in the way that Dr. Parnia has set up the study to measure it, she has no chance of seeing the target. And here's the last one I'll share with you, from Arnie: "During my surgery, I found myself up in the corner of the operating room ceiling where I could look down from overhead on my surgery. I couldn't see the operating team and equipment surrounding the table because a large, overhead lamp blocked much of my view." Okay, now there's a couple of really interesting points here. One is how high is he? Is he just above the lamp? Is he all the way up to the ceiling? Is he in that two or three inch space that Dr. Parnia hopes that he'll be in to see the target? I don't know. But the other interesting thing, and the point that we have to take into account, is from Ernie's account here his vision during resuscitation seems to be much like our vision during waking life. He has a perspective. He's seeing it from an angle. There are certain things in his way and he can't see through them. Well, this is very problematic for Dr. Parnia because it means if that patient's out-of-body experience isn't positioned exactly precisely where it needs to be, they're not going to have any chance of seeing the target. And lastly, of course, I have to add there's the matter of focus. I mean, would we expect NDErs to look at and remember these "targets?" I mean, obviously they're very important to Dr. Parnia and his group, but are they important to the patient? The person who's dead and floating outside of their body? And that, of course, challenges the last little snippet from the clip I just played you. Let me play it for you again here real quick: "...if they really are out of body, they should see that picture." So he seems to be asserting very matter-of-factly that these patients should see his target and the question I'd have is for all the reasons that I just mentioned, why does he think that's so? Why is he so sure that these patients should see the target? And I guess that leads into another question of what's the history here? What's the history of this research? Are we building off of preliminary studies where under maybe less tightly controlled conditions they've had targets up on the ceiling and people have seen them? I'm not aware of that research. Maybe it's out there. That would seem like a logical stepping-stone. Or, are there a lot of accounts of people being able to see the pictures on the wall and tell those in their accounts? Again, I don't see a lot of that in the cases that I've read but maybe he knows better than I do. And while we're on the topic of talking about history and design of the experiment, you know what kept going in the back of my mind and I kept expecting to hear it is why aren't we doing something like Dr. Penny Sartori did? It seems to me her approach was much more naturalistic in that she said, "Okay, here are these accounts that we're getting from people who've had cardiac arrest and had a near-death experience. Let's take their accounts as they come in and let's compare them with the control group that didn't have a near-death experience and let's see which one is most realistic." Maybe Dr. Parnia can do that with the data that he has. So a question I'd have is does he plan to do that? It seems like a follow-up or replication of Dr. Sartori's work would be very appropriate, very illuminating. But having said all that, and having raised all those questions, I have to tell you that I'm not particularly optimistic that we're going to get an answer to those questions. And the reason I say that is from the next clip that I want to play you from Dr. Parnia's lecture. This is the one that really grabbed my attention. It's about 47 minutes into the lecture, so it's almost at the end. Let me play you this clip: "If, on the other hand, it's just an illusion, it's a trick of the mind, which it may well be and I suspect it will turn out to be, then we would expect no one to be able to see those pictures." If NDEs are just an illusion, a trick of the mind, which it may well be, and I suspect it will turn out to be. Of course, this is just his opinion. Open-minded researcher willing to look at the data, follow it wherever it leads. But consider for a minute the implications of what he's saying. He's suggesting that the Aware Study that he's done, which as I've pointed out doesn't have any chance of succeeding, should be the final decider. It should trump the 20 years of prior NDE research that's been done. It should put a nail in the coffin to all this NDE research. Am I overstating what he's stating? I don't know. Let's see if he'll answer the question. But the more I listen and read about what Dr. Parnia says, the more I see a debunking exercise. Another setup. A setup to fail. And of course, there are a lot of other good things that can come out of the Awareness Study. He's looking at a lot of important issues as they relate to the dying process. What's going on in the brain during this process? But all of that will be forgotten and buried from the headline if he proceeds with this study, which is doomed to produce the kind of low hit rate that will certainly support his "suspicion." Later on in his video lecture he says it will be an interesting situation if only one or two people see the target. I'd be amazed if one or two people see the target. But again, I could be way off. That's why we have to sit back at this point and hope that Dr. Parnia responds to some of these questions or hope that he finds 30 minutes to come onto Skeptiko and talk to us and tell us what's really going on regarding these issues. That invitation, of course, is always open to Dr. Parnia. But until then, I need to send this podcast off to transcription and forward it on to Dr. Parnia's secretary. And that's what I plan to do. Well, that's going to do it for this episode of Skeptiko. If you'd like a link to the video lecture I've been referring to, please visit the Skeptiko website. It's at www.skeptiko.com. You'll also find a link to all of our previous shows and an email and Facebook link to me, a link to our forums, and a bunch of other good stuff. So check that out. Stay with us. I have a couple of interesting interviews coming up. I'm going to play some interviews that I did a long time ago that are really fascinating, fascinating interviews relating to the Christian perspective on the near-death experience. One is from a very well-known Atheist who I really enjoyed dialoguing with. The other is from a very well-known Christian Apologist who I also greatly admire and enjoyed speaking with. I didn't agree with either one of them, but I sure enjoyed talking to them. And that's the pleasure of doing Skeptiko. Anyway, that's it for this time. Take care and bye for now. oined today by Professor Michael Marsh, a highly regarded academic biomedical researcher and physician who was formerly a Professor of Medicine at Oxford, and then later in his career returned to Oxford to complete a PhD in theology. Now, his doctoral thesis was on near-death experience and out-of-body experience, and that's also the subject of his recently published book titled, Out-Of-Body Experience and Near-Death Experiences: Brain-State Phenomena or Glimpses of Immortality?

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108. Christian Theologian Claims Near Death Experience Not Communication With Divine

Alex Tsakiris
0
146
Near-Death Experience
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Oxford Professor of Medicine, and theologian, Michael Marsh finds much he doesn’t like about near-death experience claims of spirit communication. Many within the mainstream medical community have reservations about near death expereincers who claim to experience an afterlife, but many are surprised to hear the same doubts from Christian theologians. Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for an interview with Professor Michael Marsh, a former Professor of Medicine, at Oxford who returned to Oxford to complete PhD in Theology. Dr. Marsh, who recently authored, Out-Of-Body Experience and Near-Death Experiences: Brain-State Phenomena or Glimpses of Immortality?, rejects claims made by near-death experiencers. When asked if those who claim to encounter Jesus during their near-death experience are communicating with Christ Dr. Marsh responded with and emphatic, “no!” Marsh also offers his opinion on how near death experiences compare to biblical accounts of an afterlife, "I don't think there's much that compares with our ideas of resurrection or theology. We talked a little bit about spirituality, and I don't think that the sort of disclosures that we have… the inconsistencies of the pictures of so-called heaven, and the pictures of so-called Jesus and all the rest of it are consistent. You might expect them to be consistent if people really had been to heaven and seen Jesus or been in the presence of God.” Read Dr. Marsh's book Play it: Download MP3 (37:00 min.) Read it: Alex Tsakiris: We're joined today by Professor Michael Marsh, a highly regarded academic biomedical researcher and physician who was formerly a Professor of Medicine at Oxford, and then later in his career returned to Oxford to complete a PhD in theology. Now, his doctoral thesis was on near-death experience and out-of-body experience, and that's also the subject of his recently published book titled, Out-Of-Body Experience and Near-Death Experiences: Brain-State Phenomena or Glimpses of Immortality? Dr. Marsh, thank you for joining me today on Skeptiko.

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99. Dr. Jeffrey Long Takes On Critics of, Evidence of the Afterlife

Alex Tsakiris
0
372
Near-Death Experience
,

Near-Death experience researcher Dr. Long offers a point-by-point response to skeptics of his New York Time best seller, Evidence of the Afterlife. When near-death experience researcher Dr. Jeffery Long decided to publish his 10-year study of NDEs he knew there would be controversy, and critics.  His conclusion, that consciousness survives bodily death and moves to an afterlife, is unsettling to many within a medical community built on death being absolute and final.  But rather than shy away from critics, Dr. Long has engaged them. Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for an in-depth interview with near-death experience researcher, Dr, Jeffrey Long. During the 45-minute interview Dr. Long offers a point-by-point response to skeptics of his New York Time best seller, Evidence of the Afterlife. In response to the criticisms of former Skeptiko guest Dr. G.M. Woerlee, Dr. Long said, "I think one of the biggest defenses from people that don't believe in an afterlife, and this was brought out in your interview with Dr. Woerlee, is this barrier where they won't hear it. They won't respond to it. It's just not something they care to address, which is somewhat surprising. I think all scholarly discussion of really any topic requires an open-minded dialogue about the evidence. It really starts with evidence." Regarding speculation that NDEs result from regaining consciousness during CPR chest compressions, Dr. Long said, "When you talk to the patients who have actually survived CPR one thing that is very, very obvious is that the substantial majority of them are confused or amnesic when they're recovered. If you read even a few near-death experiences, you immediately realize essentially none of them talk about episodes of confusion when they just don't understand what's going on. You really don't see that at all. In fact, our research found that 76% of people having a near-death experience said their level of consciousness and alertness during the NDE was actually greater than their earthly, everyday life.  So, you have to come away with the conclusion that even if there's blood flow to the brain induced by CPR, it's not correlated with the level of consciousness and alertness reported during near-death experiences." Dr. Long continues, "But also, in addition, the substantial majority of people that have a near-death experience associated with cardiac arrest are actually seeing their physical body well prior to the time that CPR is initiated. Once CPR is initiated, you don't see any alteration in the flow of the near-death experience, suggesting that blood flow to the brain isn't affecting the content in any way." Dr. Long also discusses the nature of NDE skepticism, "The other issue I've seen with skeptics is they often have their pet theory. Their theory of how the world works, how things work, and it's very, very difficult to dislodge them from their pet theory, even with overwhelming evidence." In the end Dr. Jeffery Long believes in his evidence, "I have confidence in the substantial majority of people. When they hear evidence, and it's presented in a straightforward way, they're smart enough to understand what's real evidence and what's evasiveness." Jeffrey Long, M.D., is a near death experience researcher and physician (radiation oncology). His book, 'Evidence of the Afterlife' (HarperCollins), was published in 2009. From Dr. Long's website: Does Near-Death Experience (NDE) Evidence Prove an Afterlife? Consider the Evidence, and Determine YOUR Answer! Play it: Download MP3 (43:03 min.) Read it: Alex Tsakiris: We're joined today by Dr. Jeffrey Long, a practicing physician, he's a radiation oncologist, and a near-death experience researcher. His book, Evidence of the Afterlife, is the most comprehensive study of NDEs ever published and it's been a huge success. Dr. Long, welcome back to Skeptiko.

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Dr. Jeffrey Long’s Near-Death Experience Research a “Game Changer” for Science |94|

Alex Tsakiris
0
335
Near-Death Experience
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The most comprehensive research into near-death experience deals a kill shot to skeptics and aims to change how science views the afterlife. photo by Kenny Holston Science has studied the near-death experience for more than 20 years. Most research has concluded NDEs are real and unexplainable, but scientists have been slow to accept consciousness beyond death. A new scientific study by Jeffrey Long, M. D. may change that. The research compiled in  his new book, Evidence of the Afterlife, represents the largest, most comprehensive study of near-death experience and according to the study's author is, "a real game-changer". Dr. Long explains, "we looked at nine lines of evidence that indicate the reality of near-death experiences and their consistent message of an afterlife. With each of these lines of evidence we carefully reviewed all prior scholarly research on the subject and made our contributions with our original research... from my point of view, the scientific term is compelling, but you can put it another way -- the nine lines of evidence that I present is proof of the reality of near-death experiences." The conclusions of Dr. Long's research are paradigm smashing for near-death experience skeptics who've argued that limited brain functioning may explain NDEs. "What near-death experiencers see correlates to their time of cardiac arrest and it is almost uniformly accurate in every detail. That pretty much refutes the possibility that these could be illusionary fragments, or unreal memories associated with hypoxia, chemicals, REM intrusion, anything that could cause brain dysfunction", Dr. Long stated. "I looked at over 280 near-death experiences that had out-of-body observations of Earthly ongoing events... If near-death experiences were just fragments of memory, unrealistic remembrances of a time approaching unconsciousness or returning from unconsciousness, there is no chance that the observations would have a high percent of completely accurate observations. They'd be dream-like or hallucinations. But 98% of them were entirely realistic... In fact, these observations of Earthly ongoing events often include observations of things that would be impossible for them to be aware of with any sensory function from their physical body. For example, they can see the tops of buildings. They can see far away. In my study over 60 of these near-death experiencers later went back and independently attempted to verify what they saw in the out-of-body state. Every single one of these over 60 near-death experiencers that reported checking or verifying their own observations found that they were absolutely correct in every detail.", Dr. Long said. While some near-death experience researchers have been reluctant to make the leap from NDEs to proof of the afterlife, Dr. Long is convinced by his research findings, "I've gone over every skeptic argument I can get my hands on. At the end of the day, I have no doubt in my mind near-death experience is for real. It's a profound and reassuring message that we all have an afterlife. Every single one of us. And it's wonderful. It is probably the greatest thrill of my life to be able to carry forward that important message to the world. I wouldn't do it if I weren't absolutely convinced that it's correct." The conclusions of this research will be controversial, but Dr. Long stands ready to take on the critics, "I would be delighted to debate any near-death experience skeptic, any time, any place, on any media, as long as they're scholarly, well informed, and as long as it can be a very high-level, intellectual debate." Jeffrey Long, M.D., is a physician practicing the specialty of radiation oncology (use of radiation to treat cancer) in Houma, Louisiana. Dr. Long has served on the Board of Directors of IANDS (International Association for Near-Death Studies), and is actively involved in NDE research. His book, Evidence of the Afterlife (HarperCollins), was published in 2010. From Dr. Long's website: Does Near-Death Experience (NDE) Evidence Prove an Afterlife? Consider the Evidence, and Determine YOUR Answer! Read it: Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host, Alex Tsakiris, and on today's show I have an interview with Dr. Jeff Long, author of, Evidence of the Afterlife.  As you'll hear, Dr. Long is probably one of the most qualified near-death experience researchers. He's just compiled a huge body of that research into this book. This guy delivers the goods. I had a chance to interview him a few months ago for the documentary film that I've told some of you about that we're putting together. He's on top of his game. A medical doctor, well qualified in the field of medicine; also a very accomplished researcher.

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93. University of Kentucky Researcher, Dr. Kevin Nelson Skeptical of Near-Death Experience Accounts

Alex Tsakiris
0
171
Near-Death Experience

Near-death experience skeptic, Dr. Kevin Nelson says the burden of proof is on experiencers to show their experiences are real. We all dream, but do we know when we're dreaming?  Recent research from Dr. Kevin Nelson of the University of Kentucky suggests that near-death experience is akin to dreaming, and uses the same rapid eye movement mechanism associated with sleep.  In a recent interview on Sketiko.com, Dr. Nelson defends this controversial research that contradicts the accounts of thousands of near-death experiencers: Dr. Kevin Nelson: Then you ask how can we have experiences with a flat EEG? My question to you is, that's an extraordinary claim. Where is the data that says the experience that they later remembered actually happened at the time the EEG was flat? Alex Tsakiris: Penny Sartori's research, where she went and interviewed people about their resuscitation process and found that people who have a near-death experience are much more accurate in reporting the specific events that go on during resuscitation, is pretty good, solid research that backs up what so many of the near-death experiencers say, which is that this was... Dr. Kevin Nelson: Where's the data? Alex Tsakiris: Well, that's data. I mean, if you ask people... Dr. Kevin Nelson: No, what is her data? Alex Tsakiris: Her data is that they're statistically significantly more likely to recount the... Dr. Kevin Nelson: No, that's her conclusion. What's her data? Alex Tsakiris: Her data is the number of events in the resuscitation process that they're able to recall. That's the data. Play it: Download MP3 (13:15 min.) Read it: Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host, Alex Tsakiris, and on this episode of Skeptiko, I'm going to dig into the near-death experience research a little bit further. It's just fascinating to me. Every time I turn over a new stone, it gets more and more interesting. The stone I was looking to turn over today came about when I was Googling near-death experience research. What pops up over and over again in the most popular mainstream science kind of publications like CNN Health or CBS Science News, Time Magazine, these folks who just touch on this, what pops up over and over again is some research that was done a couple years ago by this guy at the University of Kentucky named Kevin Nelson. You're going to hear from him today. The way CNN summed up his research is as follows: "Nelson thinks that near-death experiences are a part of the dream mechanism and that the person having the experience is in a REM (rapid eye movement) state."

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90. EEG Expert Can’t Explain Near Death Experience Data… and, Dr. Penny Sartori Finds More Than Hallucinations in NDE Accounts

Alex Tsakiris
0
211
Near-Death Experience
,

Neurologist and University of Toledo Neuroscience Researcher, Dr. John Greenfield considers the EEG data from patients with near death experience (NDE). For near death experience skeptics, medical evidence of a flat EEG during an out of body experience has always been a stumbling block.  After all, a brain dead patient can't hallucinate.  But, does a flat EEG really mean no brain activity?  NDE  doubters have claimed activity deep inside the brain, beyond the reach of EEG instruments, must account for the complex "realer than real" experiences reported by those who briefly pass into the afterlife.  Now, University of Toledo Neuroscience researcher, and EEG expert, Dr. John Greenfield explains why this claim doesn't hold up. "It's very unlikely that a hypoperfused brain , with no evidence of electrical activity could generate NDEs.  Human studies as well as animal studies have typically shown very little brain perfusion or glucose utilization when the EEG is flat.  There are deep brain areas involved in generating memories that might still operate at some very reduced level during cardiac arrest, but of course any subcortically generated activity can't be brought to consciousness without at least one functioning cerebral hemisphere.  So even if there were some way that NDEs were generated during the hypoxic state , you would not experience them until reperfusion allowed you to dream them or wake up and talk about them", Greenfield stated. NDE Researcher, Dr. Penny Sartori, examines memories of resuscitation by patients suffering cardiac arrest. With near death experience cases making there way into the, New England Journal of Medicine, Journal of Psychiatry, and other major medical journals, NDE doubters have looked to the timing of patient memories as a way of explaining this unexplainable phenomena.  If memories of out of body travel, and all embracing love occur after ones brush with death, NDEs may still fit within our medical science worldview. The timing of NDE memories is the research question Dr. Penny Sartori sought to answer, "I worked in the intensive care unit and because of the nature of my job, of course, I'd come across a lot of death. And of course makes you wonder what happens when we die.  For five years I gathered data, where I spoke to patients in the intensive care unit and particularly patients who'd had a cardiac arrest. When these patients revived, as soon as they were medically fit, I approached them and asked the simple question, 'Did you have any memory of the time that you were unconscious?'" "For the people who had a near-death experience and out of body experience was really quite accurate and I decided then to ask the control group, the people who'd had a cardiac arrest but had no recollection of anything at all. I asked them if they would reenact their resuscitation scenario and tell me what they thought that we had done to resuscitate them. And what I found is that many of the patients couldn't even guess as to what we'd done. They had no idea at all. And then some of them did make guesses, but these were based on TV hospital dramas that they'd seen. I found that what they reported was widely inaccurate. So there was a stark contrast really in the very accurate out of body experiences reported and then the guesses that the control group had made.", Dr. Sartori reported. While research like this may never be enough to convince dogmatic skeptics, the medical evidence for near death experience continues to challenge us to reexamine our beliefs about what lies beyond death. Play it: Download MP3 (29:04 min.) Read it: Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host, Alex Tsakiris, and I want to start by thanking those of you who've contacted me directly since the last episode of Skeptiko and have joined me on Facebook or joined me on Twitter. It's been great to get to know you, to dialogue a little bit, and I hope we can keep that going.

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