Whitley Strieber, MKUltra Flypaper |480|

Whitley Strieber experienced military grade torture long before he encountered the visitors.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:029:39]  …they intentionally try to create this DID (disassociative identity) situation because without even fully understanding it, they know it creates an entry point, and I wonder if our intelligence organizations had halfway figured that out and we’re fooling around with how to create that entry point.

Whitley Strieber: You know let me tell you something about black magic. First, it’s quite real and second it’s like flypaper you touch it, you can never escape, can never escape, an organization touches it, that organization is part of it.

Alex Tsakiris: A Country?

Whitley Strieber:  A country too,,, and the more you try to escape from it, the deeper you get, there’s only one way to escape and that is to live a life of love, compassion and humility.

(more below)

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Alex Tsakiris: [00:00:00] Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science and spirituality, with leading researchers, thinkers and their critics. I’m your host, Alex Tsakiris and today we welcome Whitley Strieber to Skeptiko. He’s here to talk about his new book, which we have up on the screen there on Amazon, A New World. Very affordably priced, i even got a little discount online about eight bucks, just an unbelievably classic book. But we’ll get into that in a minute and we might also learn what’s going on with his very excellent website, Unknown Country and, of course, his podcast that I’m sure many of you have checked out at various times, Dreamland. So, you know, before we jumped into all that, I wanted to pause for a minute and bring a little bit of perspective to today’s talk. Because, you know, as I’ve kind of said on the show, there really are only two questions. Who are we and why are we here? So if you go look at science, that’s all science really fundamentally is ever asking. That’s all philosophy is ever asking. You might even say that’s all religion is ever asking and if you look at those two questions and you look at this new, now disclosed reality about the lights in the sky, about the craft that has been video released on the Department of Defense, The New York Times and all the news reporters, it’s on mainstream news, everybody and if we think how fundamentally that has shifted, that has answered or at least begun to answer those two questions, Who are we? Why are we here? and then you ask yourself, name one person,one person who you would say is most at the center of that monumental shift in all of history of answering those two questions, paradigm shift. Now we have a whole new way of answering them. Whitley Strieber has to be in there. I mean, he has to be, I think he’s the one but he’s certainly one of the very few. So there aren’t a lot of seminal events in this kind of paradigm shift this new understanding of who we are and why we’re here. But maybe if we’re just gonna pick out three of them randomly, we’d say, okay, maybe Roswell, that certainly kind of was a paradigm shift, no matter what you think about Roswell, no matter what your opinion is. A second one would be the current round of I don’t know disclosure I guess we could call it, that we’re going through that, some people call it a psyop. But it certainly isn’t official semi official disclosure. But the third event would have to be the publication of Whitley’s book Communion, which if people don’t remember, because they’re not older, when Communion was in the bookshelves back when they had bookstores, it stopped people in their tracks. They were not mesmerized I was gonna say, but that isn’t the correct word. They were transformed by their real memories of things that had happened to them. That’s how significant that book was. It shifted our whole perception of this phenomenon from a nuts and bolts technology phenomenon to an experiencer phenomenon. Whitley did that and then he changed it again along the way just by his own raw discovery and sharing that discovery with us. He shifted it again to a consciousness centered experience, saying that it’s not just about the experience, it’s about what the experience means at that consciousness level and then finally, if you followed his work in the last few years he shifted it again in the most significant way from a consciousness centered, which really means mind for a lot of people to an extended consciousness perspective. The work with his departed wife and in her near death experience and then her after death communication and with these ongoing, extended consciousness communication with these ones that he calls the visitors and what that means at a deep, dare I say spiritual level, but we have to because that’s what it’s at. It’s phenomenal, phenomenal person in our in our history, which we just don’t appreciate it. Do you have any thoughts on your position in all this your legacy position or anything like that?

Whitley Strieber: [00:05:17] Yeah, I certainly thought about it a lot. You know, how did I end up dropped into this particular bag. I was not living a life that was connected with this in any way. When I was, when it happened, at least that’s not what, I thought I wasn’t. But that wasn’t the case.My uncle and my father were involved in the whole secret world in some ways. My uncle pretty much opened up to me and introduced me to General Arthur who, and I based what they told me, I based my novel Majestic on what they told me about Roswell and the aftermath of Roswell and since then I’ve pretty well gotten the whole story straight. So I have a really quite accurate timeline from there to here and the difficulty has been that I’ve been asked to keep secrets in some cases and there are therefore holes in the narrative and I’m hoping that I will get some kind of closure on this at some point. But as far as my personal life is concerned, I wrote a book years ago called The Secret School, at which is a sort of an exploration of strange childhood memories or are they memories? I’ve never been sure. Some of them I’m pretty sure of. Ironically the one I’m most sure of I did not mention in the book because I didn’t remember it when I was writing the book only later and that is that I was in some kind of very intense and very disturbing, educational program. As a little boy, I thought at first it happened in 1947 when I was, would have been three or four, but it actually happened in 1962 and it involved it using something called a Skinner box, exactly and I was very unsure about this memory until I mentioned it to a man who is in an entirely different world and an entirely different career path from mine, a very successful man, one of the world leaders in his field, who also happens to be arguably my closest friend and we have been friends since childhood and our family friendship, you know, in the southeast and anywhere in the country, for that matter. These family friendships can go back a long time, goes back three generations now and our kids and grand-kids are the fourth and fifth generation. So it’s a long friendship and I trust him deeply. I trust him, I would trust him with my soul and I mentioned it to him and to my amazement, he said, well, you know, they tried to recruit me, too. I was seven when this happened. He was nine and there’s a great deal of difference between the mind of a seven year old and a nine year old. He remembers very well being in the room when the two Air Force people, a man and a woman who his parents knew they were friends, tried to recruit him for the program and they they pitched it as a program for extremely bright children and that there would only be a few people in San Antonio selected for only five or six children and he was one of them because they had that, the Air Force had been behind the general IQ testing of children.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:09:27] Aren’t you lucky? Aren’t you the lucky one?

Whitley Strieber: [00:09:29] Not really.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:09:31] And you know when I heard you, the first time I heard you tell the story, I was stunned by your openness about struggling to come to grips with it and how the account of your friend and his parents who basically said get the hell out of here you’re not putting my son in any Skinner box, I don’t care what you call it and what you keep adding to the story which is just revealing more and more layers Whitley, It’s not like you’re adding anything to the story, you’re revealing more about the story. But the two things I just want you to touch on about that story was number one that you’re, It’s a horrible word complicit, but your family was complicit in this at a level that you didn’t understand until you were much older. So there was no option on their part, they had already kind of signed up for this, we don’t even know what they had done before.

Whitley Strieber: [00:10:24] I don’t know…

Alex Tsakiris: [00:10:26] The other thing I remember about your story that was particularly poignant to me and I want you to retell it if it’s true, but you dressing up as you’re in your Sunday best to, you know, go for the special program in sitting, in waiting and doing that for the first weekend but then the second weekend, you had this, like fear, panic and the parents were like, oh, get ready, we’re all ready and you’re like, not even knowing how to process that but saying, this is not something that’s right or good or proper.

Whitley Strieber: [00:10:57] Well, first of all, a couple of logistical corrections it was Thursday nights, not weekends and we were,when mother began to dress us for this, to get us to dress because she wanted us to look our best. My parents had no, they had not been told the truth about what was happening, I’m sure. Let me let me go back to the strange one thing, my father has to have been one of the most tight lipped human beings who ever existed. He was very, very kept everything, everything very close to the chest. But, um, Colonel Guy Hicks who was the officer in command, when Captain Mentelle, back in 19 in the early 50s, flew his Mustang toward a UFO and crashed and it’s a famous UFO incident at the Mentelle incident. His family ended up living just down the road, just a block away from us and my father and mother specifically sent me over there to play with his children and I remember, perhaps them asking me questions about it, but I don’t remember in any detail. But what was going on that he was even there and there was an FBI agent who lived down the street across the street from us. So something was up in that and you’re right, I think when you say there was some kind of locomotion there, I don’t think my parents realized how traumatic this was going to be. They probably didn’t know what a Skinner box was but the other parents, the husband was a trial lawyer and he had been involved in a brainwashing case and so he knew everything there was to know about mind control and mind changing systems and so forth. So that was why they declined to let their child go into this. It was pitched to the parents, as he tells me, I don’t remember my parents never mentioned anything about what they had been told. As a real honor, you know that, but they took my sister and a boy who lived across the street with us, with me because they, what they were really going to do was not pleasant and they needed, I think they needed some companionship from me because I think I would have been too panicked to function had I not had other children who were familiar to me with me. But as I recall, there may have been other children involved. I have all kinds of weird, half imaginary, half maybe real memories of, that I don’t discuss because they’re too vague and too incendiary really. But I do remember one time being so upset that they took me to the flight line and now this did happen on a weekend and they had took me out to the base, to the Air Force Base and they showed me around and they were very nice to me and they took me to the flight line and let me sit in a Sabre Jet and they were trying to make me more comfortable there but that didn’t work and the program started in August just before school started,about two weeks before school started I think. By October my immune system had completely collapsed and I was getting sickness. I was getting cold after cold,disease after disease. My mother took me to our doctor and he told her that I had no white blood cells and she mentioned she talked about this before and the result was that I was taken not to a hospital like a local Children’s Hospital, I was taken to Burke General Hospital, the military hospital and I was isolated there for about maybe three or four days, I know mother came and slept with me one night or maybe all nights, I don’t know and I was given shots of Gamma Globulin, then I was taken home and not allowed to go to school and not allowed to see any other children until the January of that year came,I was out of school until January, that was in October and I was no longer in the program. So that’s what happened. I attribute the visitors coming into my life, somehow or another to that programme.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:16:22] I need to kind of lay out a couple of connections that I’ve stumbled upon and i want you to comment on them because you have, you’ve laid out these threads but I appreciate that you are reluctant to stitch things together in a neat and tidy way when it doesn’t belong in a neat and tidy way and I really respect that.

Whitley Strieber: [00:16:44] You can’t do that, then you’re then you’re living an illusion.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:16:48] Well and that’s why we trust you and that’s why, you know, in your book you say at the beginning that you’re not a liar and you don’t tolerate, you don’t tolerate liars and I love that.

Whitley Strieber: [00:17:00] No i don’t.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:17:00] Because that’s what we need. So a couple of pieces to string together here. One of course is that MK Ultra program, which all indications would seem to point to the fact that this was part of the MK Ultra program, people have looked into it know that, you know, it’s not just a couple of doctors up there in Canada fooling around. There are 150 programs at least that we’ve traced before they shut down all the information, many places throughout the United States. One of the little tidbits that I picked up from a UFO researcher Grant Cameron who I like and respect and he had a great point about the Wilbert Smith memo, that’s pretty famous. It was released back in the 50s through a Freedom of Information Act. I won’t repeat that sir because I’ve told it so many times and I’m sure you know it. But you know, he’s a Canadian. He’s working the Canadian weird desk, if you will and finally enough UFO stuff piles up on his desks that he’s telling his boss, I need to go down to the States and he goes down and he meets Sandibar Bush and he meets all these other guys and they say, you got some good stuff so you’re in the club, we can tell you a little bit about what’s going on and they say yeah, this is the main thing. The UFO thing is the thing ( Coughs ) Pardon me. But what is in the Wilbert Smith memo to his boss that was never supposed to be public, is the last sentence says they understand it to be a mental phenomenon, and are pursuing it in those lines and he suspects and I agree with him that the rise and the impetus for the MK Ultra program was at least partially if not significantly driven by the fact that they had made some kind of contact and they had immediately, had it came up this idea of this materialistic,you are a biological robot and meaning it because they were speaking or communicating telepathically and then they in typical military fashion, then it became okay, how do we do it? How do we weaponize it? And so that’s one thread I want you to pick up on. But the other thread that’s really sad is the splitting, is the dis-associative identity disorder and the weaponization of that and as we learn through cult practices through satanic ritual abuse practices in the very real way that we study it among criminals who do that, that this is somehow in some way we don’t completely understand a tool a mechanism to crack people open to somehow make them more pliable in this extended consciousness realm that again we don’t completely understand and I know you’ve written about this and spoken about these things but I was wondering if you could tie them together a little bit here?

Whitley Strieber: [00:20:06] Well, I think that what happened to me in that three or four month period cracked the Cosmic Egg. I know it shattered my sister and it shattered the boy from across the street, it ruin their lives. I attribute they both had very difficult lives and I attribute it to this because I don’t see there’s anything else to explain it, it was a very placid, normal 1950s neighborhood, you know, in other words, there was nothing there, except this, that to make them what they became and the boy across the street lived at home he barely, he had sort of a marriage, but he was, he lived in the room he grew up in until the day he died at 53 and he was interviewed by Edward Conroy and he mentioned remembering something about our childhood that I think was verifying in a way that somebody didn’t like and that’s my theory because of course, what I’m going to tell you involves a VA hospital so it could have just been malpractice. But he fell off a ladder, and went to the VA hospital and they loaded him up with so much Cortisone that he died and I don’t know if they murdered him, or malpractice, could have been either. But the…and my sister had a very difficult life, she could never settle somehow. To my knowledge neither of them had any memory of the events that took place in Randolph and they both died before I made…the neighbor died before I remembered it and my sister didn’t have any memory of it. I asked her about it when she was alive, she’s passed on now. But what I think is this with regard to MK Ultra. When the files were released, the judge ordered or allowed the withholding of a quite a number of records which are still classified and still are hidden away at this point. I’m not sure they can be legally classified anymore. I think it was 44 boxes of files. In other words, a lot of files. I believe that these files probably included maybe among other things, material about this type of program and they were withheld because it was so incendiary that children had been involved. But children still are involved. It’s not over. It’s not over and you know you talk about ritual abuse and that bizarre story of the finders comes to mind, which you may have discussed on your show before, Yeah, you’re nodding, so I’m not gonna go into it in too much detail. But I know an enormous amount about it and this program was very, like, in some ways I think what was done to us and what was so very chilling to me was when I read the finders material first, when it first showed up, years ago back in the in the 80s, I was shocked of course but then later when I remembered my experiences more clearly back in the late 90s of Randolph, there was more to it than that, there was also a trip to Mexico, to Monterey, to a special school in Monterey.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:24:16] You experienced it? When would, when does that fit into the time frame?

Whitley Strieber: [00:24:20] I’m not sure, I must have been, It must have been during that same period, probably in my seventh year and it was in the it was I remember the flight was very exciting to me because we, I believe we drove to El Paso to Laredo and then flew to Monterrey but it was on a wonderful, one of those old Ford tri motors, an old airplane, which in those days were still flying in Mexico. They were not, you know, this was the early 50s and so they were still in operation and I found that very exciting. In any case, in the finders material you will find that the children said that they had been recruited because they were super intelligent and they were on their way to Mexico and that shocked me and frighten me and the reason is I have, which I am not going to go into detail about because I don’t know they’re locomotion within my mind. I have horrifying memories of that place. When I went to Mexico with my wife, some years ago we stopped in Monterey, we stayed at the same hotel I’d stayed in with my sister and dad, The Gran Ancira.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:25:50] Really,why did you choose to do that?

Whitley Strieber: [00:25:53] I wanted to, well we were going to meet friends in Mexico, I’m part Mexican so I have a lot of Mexican friends, friends and family.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:26:04] But why go back to that same hotel? Was it closure for you?

Whitley Strieber: [00:26:08] I was trying to, I was trying to reignite the memories. I did it very intentionally and then I also drove up and down the streets in the hills above Monterrey, trying to find the place frankly and I never did. I didn’t find anything that was connected. That struck any familiar chord in my mind, I didn’t see anything that I would say that was the place, that was when I was trying to, I was trying to reconnect with buried memories basically and I failed, but I’m sure that if that happened and if it was, if the memories I have of it are true, then it was an absolute nightmare and the purpose of it would have been to cause the children to feel guilty and to therefore cement their loyalty. I wrote a book called In Hitler’s House under a pseudonym of Jonathan Lane, which mentioned something that Hitler called the blue ticket. The blood loyalty and the way this worked was when a person was inducted into the SS, they were made to do something really, really terrible that everyone else had done in the group and then they made them feel part of the group and they had a horrible secret so terrible, they could never tell anyone. This is also what was used in the recruiting of children and in Africa in the wars that used child armies.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:26:15] I mean this is standard playbook, gangs, blood in, blood out.

Whitley Strieber: [00:27:57] Right.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:28:00] Every criminal organization has picked up on it. It’s been around for a long time doesn’t make it better or anything like that.

Whitley Strieber: [00:28:32] No, but it was, I think it was first articulated by Hitler himself.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:028:39] Can I interject a question? Because when you’re talking about the finders and I don’t want to trace that whole history for people, can go back and find it in this show and and other places and John Brison was the guy we’ve interviewed who’s done some terrific work, original research, interviewing Martinez who is the customs officer, his partner in DC who kind of cracked the case. Here’s what’s interesting about the finders, which I’d like you to speak to, is the horror, the weaponization. I don’t take horror out of it because it immediately throws people off the weaponization of these extended consciousness realms bleeds together into multiple purposes like you’re saying. One Hey! it silences people, they’re bonded now they can’t, they’re bonded through fear, they’re traumatized and they can’t do that. It also creates a situation where you know in the finders cult, we can now find Hey! Isn’t this a tool to blackmail other people you know and we do a Jeffrey Epstein brown stoning operation way back then, which they were doing, but again, cross purposes. But the third aspect of it, which I think is really most intriguing to me and I suspect it is to you too because I’ve seen your writing on it, is the breaking open, the cracking open in order to create an entry point for extended consciousness, including the visitors, including what we would call demonic beings and again, this is, I interviewed Dr. Tom Zinser a clinical psychologist in Grand Rapids Michigan who worked 20 years with a lot of people with dissociative identity disorder and many of them satanic ritual abuse victims and then it’s exactly his finding, is that that’s why they do it. They intentionally try and create this DID situation because without even fully understanding it, they know it creates an entry point and I wonder if we were as horrible as it is, if our intelligence organizations had halfway figured that out and we’re fooling around with how to create that entry point.

Whitley Strieber: [00:31:01] You know let me tell you something about black magic. First, it’s quite real and second it’s like flypaper you touch it, you can never escape, can never escape, an organization touches it, that organization is part of it.

Alex Tsakiris:[00:31:21] Country?

Whitley Strieber: [00:31:23] A country too and the more you try to escape from it, the deeper you get, there’s only one way to escape and that is to live a life of love, compassion and humility. If you do not actively work on that you will not escape and you have this whole community of people who are so arrogant, I’ve known many people in intelligence work, I grew up in a family that was involved in it for God’s sakes and it makes people arrogant. If you can know, secrets that your neighbor can’t know, it feeds the ego in a very sick way. You have to work hard to be humble. You know, the first blessing the visitors, when the visitors really started to work with me, at the graves, I mean, the first lesson was a lesson in humility. Now, the dark side is extremely clever and it would know that I might be drawn in to accepting it as not the dark side because it gave me lessons in things like humility and compassion. But you have to live those lessons and it might very well give you those lessons in an effort to recruit you into something very dark, in order to trick you into believing it’s the game, demons who want to trick you into believing their angels. But if you get deeper than that, you find you’re in control, you can control it and all of these asses who were trying and are trying to basically engage the dark side on behalf of the United States of America have failed in that respect in my opinion and you keep seeing little things bleed out like the Jeffrey Epstein stuff and recruitment that took place for years inside the Catholic Church, which has been publicly exposed as ritual abuse, but the deeper processes of recruitment that were involved have never been publicly exposed and probably never will be. But they they’re, in my opinion and then the Epstein case, what happened to all of the videos is a silence has come about that, who has them? I remember back years and years ago my family had a lot of connections politically in Texas and there was much laughter about the fact that LBJ had gotten a hold of some film of J. Edgar Hoover dancing around in a dress and that film resulted in Johnson getting a hold of all of Hoover’s files, Hoover’s secret files on politics. Johnson took over from Hoover basically and then later, of course, it was revealed that it was all quite true and Hoover was across dresser and there were big parties, FBI parties with cross dressing and stuff. People who do those things, there’s nothing wrong with it now. In other words, we’ve disenfranchised that as an evil act. But in those days, it was extremely secret and considered very, very perverse and bizarre and that’s how the people who needed to do it, but these four people thought of themselves, including someone like Hoover.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:35:47] Yeah but I think Hoover was pretty dark in other ways too. It’s not just a guy who liked, yeah, you know,he, like so many of those victims became a perpetrator right? I mean, it’s clear.

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