Leslie Kean, NETFLIX, Surviving Death, Game Changing |481|

Leslie Kean’s groundbreaking book, Surviving Death, is a top 5 NETFLIX series.

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Audio Clip: [00:00:00] The question of what happens after we die has intrigued humans for as long as we’ve been around. As a physician, I know that most people don’t think about death really until they’re forced to. Her brain was not functioning and she had the most vivid experience.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:00:16] That’s a clip from the terrific new Netflix series surviving death. Today on Skeptiko, we talk to contributing producer and author of the original book, Leslie Kean. Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science and spirituality, with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I’m your host, Alex Tsakiris and today we welcome back actually journalist and author, Leslie Kean to Skeptiko. Leslie has an excellent, excellent new series out on Netflix, titled Surviving Death. When I watched it, it was trending at number six on Netflix, which is just a huge accomplishment, particularly for a documentary of this type you know, that’s really packed with a lot of frontier science, important information. This is just a huge accomplishment and you’ll notice as you watch it, that she also appears in the film, and I gotta say, Leslie, again, you do a fantastic job. I didn’t know that this is going to be in your IMDb database right? This is your…

Leslie Kean: [00:01:32] Thanks Alex

Alex Tsakiris: [00:01:34] No, it’s really great. You have a great, great presence, and you add a lot to the production, which again, not to just kind of go on and on but the production quality of this thing is fantastic, It’s so watchable, It’s so cinema graphic and just a big congratulations on it. Before I leave this introduction though, let me just let you know, you know, if you don’t remember Leslie’s work, this is a very important journalist of our time. This is the person who broke the UFO Disclosure story in the New York Times, which, as we’ve discussed, I mean, there’s no way around it being one of the seminal events of I don’t know history, I mean the Empire of the planet announces that we’re being visited by aliens, at least that’s my read of it If you really are honest about what they wrote. She’s the person who one of the people has the byline in the New York Times, the newspaper of record, Leslie Kean is the one who wrote that. And of course, her credentials from the UFO standpoint stem from the book that she wrote in 2011. Very, very influential book, UFOs, Generals, Pilots and Government Officials go on the record, it was a New York Times bestseller. It was a big, big deal in the UFO community because it delivered what the title promises that she got these guys to go on the record a major, major important people. And then, you know, we talked to her after that in 2017, she wrote a book and it’s the book that this Netflix special is based on Surviving Death, a journalist investigates evidence for the afterlife. And then just as we mentioned, you know, really check this out on Netflix, you’ll really, really enjoy it. It’s a great six part documentary series packed with just a ton of great stuff. So Leslie, again, congratulations on this and thanks so much for coming on to talk about it.

Leslie Kean: [00:03:47] Thanks Alex, It’s great to be with you again and I just want to, just jumping off what you said I want to make sure it’s clear that I mean, this really isn’t my series. This is a series that was based on my book. But it was made by a film company called Breakthrough films. And, you know, I was a consulting producer, I had some input into it, but it’s their creation on a you know, all the stuff you’re saying about the cinematography and the beautiful way it’s put together and the structure and everything else, the credit has to go to Ricky Stern, who is the director and the other members of the crew that worked on it. So I just want to take my hat off to them because, as I said, it’s not really mine. But I had it, I , it was based on my book, I had input into it, you know, it’s because of my book that it all happened, I take credit for that. And these filmmakers are just fabulous, creative artists and I just feel so fortunate that they were the ones. I don’t think I would have wanted to do it with anybody else. These are, this is a film company that I’ve worked with before and they did a documentary for the History Channel in 2011 based on my UFO book, so now they’re doing this based on my newest book. So I’ve known them for a long time and they are really open minded gifted people. So I probably wouldn’t have wanted to do it with anybody but them and then they, of course, took the whole idea to Netflix and that was incredible that Netflix was going to be the platform for it. So that’s how it all happened.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:05:15] Awesome awesomeness. I mean, love that you want to share the love. That’s great. They deserve a ton of credit. Let’s play a trailer for folks, If they’re watching this video they can see it or just listening to it, well, it’s amazing. We’ll listen to Jim Tucker here.

Audio Clip: [00:05:32] The question of what happens after we die has intrigued humans for as long as we’ve been around. As a physician, I know that most people don’t think about death really, until they’re forced to. Her brain was not functioning, and she had the most vivid experience. My near death experience changes how I understand that. We think these people, they’re gone but they’re always watching after us. Someone said, What is your name? This thing is talking to us. The first story that Ryan ever told, he said, Mom, I think I used to be somebody else. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, this is the biggest claim ever. I don’t believe we know everything. Their loved one from the other side is there helping them cross over. These signs and messages, they’re always around us. I would say send me a card note when you get to heaven. I can’t explain it. But I know it was him. This is real people should not change everything.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:06:40] Okay, I’ll end it there. So just, you know, great, great stuff to tell folks again, it’s a six part series, you’re being very modest but it does follow the excellent research that you did for your book, and the methodology that you have, I mean, you’re a serious journalist and when you approach these topics you have that journalistic sensibility of Okay, what are my best sources? How do I build my case? And how do I present it as fairly as possible? And that comes through in the series.

Leslie Kean: [00:07:18] I mean, there really wasn’t any writing because there’s no narrator. So the, you know, the characters that are being portrayed and the people like Jim Tucker, the experts are going to, are telling the story themselves, which you know, what was one of the things I love about it, I don’t like narrator’s and documentaries, particularly. So it was more about I mean the way it was shaped was there were just lots of drafts, you know, people would, they would go out and do a shoot and then we talk about the structure of the particular episode. And there were so, it’s like writing a book, there are so many drafts you know and the editing process is just, I don’t know how they do it, I mean, the amount of footage that was shot for the series, and that wasn’t used, and the editors had to go through all of it and make this incredibly cohesive piece out of it. I really admire just the talent that went into this. In terms of the structure I mean, for instance, having near death episodes, near death experiences be the first episode I think was really great because it’s, it’s very just sort of expansive and beautiful to watch. It’s fairly simple to understand and it kind of gets people into sort of the positivity I mean, there’s there’s some issues that come up with near death experiences. But you know, there’s a lot of discussions we had about the order in which to present things because in my book, actually, the reincarnation stories were presented first.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:08:44] Let’s walk through some of these because…

Leslie Kean: [00:08:46] Okay…

Alex Tsakiris: [00:08:46] People are gonna find, people who listen to this show, they are actually going to be familiar with a lot of the cases, what’s going to be especially compelling is as you said, the way that you put it together and as kind of a source where you can kind of corral in a family member or a friend and say sit down and watch this you know, all the stuff I’ve been telling you in bits and pieces, here it is put together.

Leslie Kean: [00:08:46] Yeah okay ,and of course I don’t want to give everything away because I want people to see it but you know the show opens with the Case of Dr. Mary Neal, who you know, a lot of your audience may be familiar with her story because she’s been out in the media before but what was so compelling about it was she’s a, you know, a very highly educated medical doctor and she was literally drowned for literally 30 minutes, she was under the water, I mean, it is just, you know, you don’t live through something like that. Yet she was able to come back and she had a very, very vivid and NDE and she was in the hospital for three months after and had to have all these surgeries and then when she first got there the doctor said, there is 0% chance that she will not be brain damaged from this, yet, she wasn’t. So, you know, it’s just a highly evidential case, when the cases are documented by the doctors who actually have witnessed the way that person was, the state of death that that person was in, and yet they come back, and they come back with conscious experiences that they had when they had no brain, or no heartbeat when they were basically dead. How can you explain that? That’s what’s so interesting about it.

Leslie Kean: [00:10:40] I don’t know if you should give that away, should you? For people who haven’t…

Alex Tsakiris: [00:10:42] Leslie! Leslie! they are gonna want to go and watch this show. Do you think this little..

Leslie Kean: [00:10:48] I know.

Alex Tsakiris:[00: 10:49] No, it’s gonna…

Leslie Kean: [00: 10:51] I don’t know.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:10:52] And she said that, she said that before, again, as you said, you know, it’s not a,it’s not..

Leslie Kean: [00: 10:56] I guess it’s not brand new. Yeah, I just wondering because when I first saw it, I didn’t know that was coming because I didn’t really know the case and it was like, really hit me when it came. So I don’t want to, but if you don’t think it’s an issue it’s your show, go ahead.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:11:08] Well, in her case, one of the aspects of it that are just particularly kind of next level, spiritually challenging, is she comes back with the information that her oldest son. I’m saying it, I’m saying it…

Leslie Kean: [00:11:09] You can’t resist it , go ahead.

Alex Tsakiris: [00: 11:10] Because it does, it does really hit you on that next level. I mean…

Leslie Kean:[00:11:16] Really?

Alex Tsakiris:[00: 11:16] We’re just gonna kind of talk kind of freely like I like to do, you know.

Leslie Kean:[00:11:21] Okay.

Alex Tsakiris:[00:11:21] The series is, is great and you have to do what you just said that, wow-wee isn’t this amazing that scientists are finding out that consciousness survives death. That is fantastic. But there’s a yada-yada aspect to that for people who’ve been around it for a long while, you get someone like this, who is a medical doctor, is now just kind of sheepishly going, Yeah, everything I thought I knew is bullshit but I have to kind of continue to kind of say that. And then she says, In the most profound, heartfelt way, because her connection with her son was obviously very deep, and is still very deep and she comes back from her NDE saying she was told that her son will have to be taken, will pass and we’ll pass in, they just tell her exactly as it turns out to be a slightly different, but they tell her when that’s going to happen. And the challenging thing about that, obviously, for us is it zooms way past the Gosh, you know, the Scooby Doo kind of pull off the mask at the end, are the doctors right or wrong? It’s two, is anything in this existence what we think it is?

Leslie Kean:[00:12:36] Yeah, I mean, I agree with you, it is really raises a huge amount of questions and you know, the other question that would raises, if indeed, there were beings there, which is the way she described it, who were imparting this information to her? Why would they even tell her this? And she had no idea, just putting aside the profounder questions that you raised about what it means about our existence. It’s also like, you know, she never really understood why she was given this information. And she had to live with it every day of her life. And her sense was that he was going to die at a young age, you know, and so by the time he was 18, she was ecstatic that maybe it wasn’t going to happen, but then of course, it did. So that’s another question and I think what’s interesting about the way the filmmakers portrayed, dealt with NDE’s, in the whole first episodes, they didn’t only show the sort of glorious, you know, aspects of it, which is what everybody thinks of as an NDE, there are struggles that go along with it. And when we went to Seattle to be with Kimberly Clark, sharp counsels these people, we learned that there’s a lot of struggles and difficulties that they have and I don’t see that that also is an aspect that I haven’t seen covered in most documentaries that are very kind of woowoo about, oh, they go see Jesus, and they’re happy for the rest of their lives because they’re not afraid of dying you know, it’s not that simple. And I like the fact that we open up the door to complexities around it.

Alex Tsakiris: [00: 14:02] Yeah, that integration problem is really kind of an issue. And it seems to be a broader issue with this understanding of extended consciousness that the whole series deals with, right? So you look at integration problems in NDE but you also have integration problems with people who have an extreme encounter with a ghost encounter or just a spiritually transformative experience, which isn’t so much about the film, but it is. And then you have the denial of the integration problems, like in reincarnation, I love the clip when Ryan’s dad and Ryan is the kind of famous story of the Hollywood kid, right?

Leslie Kean: [00:14:42] Sure. I mean, so episode five is about like using sort of ghosts and apparitions. And then that moves into an end of life visions or end of life experiences. So this is people who are who are consciously dying. They’re not on drugs, you know, they’re dying. They’re in hospice but they’re awake and alert and the kinds of visions that they have, in which they experience their loved ones who have already passed on coming to assist them with crossing over that’s sort of the theme. And we went with a hospice doctor named Christopher Kerr, who’s in Buffalo, New York and I thought the segment was absolutely beautiful. I was not part of that, the filmmakers handled that whole thing. I mean, I didn’t research it, I didn’t meet Chris, Dr. Kirk and I think they did a fantastic job. And it’s just very moving but it also opens you up to the possibility that when you’re close to the end, and you sort of have one foot in that world, you’re going to be, there’s some spillover into your world you know, and these people have these experiences and to them they’re very real, and they help them die within peace and with you know, sort of an awareness that there is something else coming along. And Dr. Kerr has been documenting these cases for many years so I found that, that’s what five is basically.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:16:00] I thought the segment with Dr. Christopher Kerr was absolutely amazing.

Leslie Kean:[00:16:05] I did too.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:16:07] Other people will find it just…

Leslie Kean: [00:16:09] Stunning, wasn’t it?

Alex Tsakiris: [00:16:11] Stunning. It’s stunning and challenging on a number of different levels. I mean, the guy just seems transformed by his experience with this data, which I think is, all of us who don’t have, I haven’t had a near death experience. I don’t know anyone, I’m not, I’m kind of spiritually dense but I soak this stuff in, and I look at the work of somebody like Christopher Kerr and I go wow, you know, we can be transformed. Anyone who watches this series can be transformed by seeing how these people are transformed how their life has changed. I love the story of Dr. Kerr how he says, you know, he was just a regular doctor, if you will, you know, believe in all the bullshit that doctors are told and he he recounts this in the series, he goes, I was in and I was visiting a patient mind who was in the advanced stages of AIDS, I had gone through his medicals and had come out and told the nurse, yeah, he’s got about three or four more days you should get…and she’s just nodding her head writing, she goes, No, actually, he’s gonna be gone really quick.

Leslie Kean: [00: 17:21]

The reason she knew that was because she said he was being visited by you know..

Alex Tsakiris: [00: 17:25] Exactly.

Leslie Kean: [00: 17:26] He’s nurses who are the ones that are with the patients, not the doctors, they know when certain things start to happen. They know what the pattern is because it happens all the time. It’s just fascinating and then he jumped in himself, and he started to enter into that world himself. And he was transformed by that.

Alex Tsakiris:[00: 17:47] In the, it’s exactly as you say and what I love is that, that little clip, he goes, you know, I realized at that point when I look back that I didn’t know what the hell I was talking about. And that, you know, I’ve interviewed people in hospice before and people who’ve worked in hospice and there is just a wealth of information as you’re alluding to, among those people, they just know this shit and they can’t talk about it because they’re bound by a medical system that is incomplete, orchestrated denial about all this stuff. But they know this stuff, you don’t really ever. So anyways, this guy, as you see in the film is transformed by this and is now in service to people and he’s doing it with the stethoscope around his neck but what he’s really doing is what Leslie? I mean, talk about it.

Leslie Kean: [00: 18:38] He’s really, I mean, he visits these people, a lot of them are in their homes and he just talks to them and listens. That’s what he does and it means everything to these people. And he keeps records. So that, you know, is a research process or there’s a database that’s being, but the main thing is the human contact that he provides them. And the validation of their experiences that they’re authentic, that they’re real, that they’re meaningful, and he likes to hear about them from people. And I think, you know, it’s so moving in the in the series to be able to see the interaction that he has, with these people you know, it’s so intimate, it’s so meaningful, and it’s very emotional, I found that whole segment to be very emotional. There’s a mom who had lost her little girl, you know, and you hear from her you know, and what the girl was saying and how it’s affected the mother and there’s just a lot of the whole series really is about the personal experiences of regular people who have lost loved ones, and in various different scenarios and various different ways. They’re, asking the questions and they’re finding ways to connect with their loved ones once they’ve passed you know, that’s really, it’s ,and I think that it’s so much about that. It’s about what people go through when they’re asking questions about life after death, and they’re coping with it and there’s nothing sad or really morbid about it, but it’s meaning, it’s meaningful and moving. You know, for instance, the couple that in the previous episode about that grief retreat, remember this, that couple who had lost their son in the boy scout accident, I mean, I was, I found that to be the most emotionally wrenching, but uplifting at the same time, but just to the raw grief that they were able to expose to our crew. And then to have something happen to them that really helped them it was just, you know, it’s very emotional, the whole thing. But it’s really about people. As much as it is about research, which as you point out is an important part and it’s sort of in the background but I think what these filmmakers like to do when they make movies is to focus on, they call them character driven movies, they like to tell stories about people. And I think that’s a lot of what the emphasis is, in the series overall, you’re going on these journeys that people are going through, and they’re a lot of the times it’s people who weren’t asking for anything to happen or weren’t looking for it you know, if you have a near death experience, you’re not looking for that. They just happen to people just like everyone, like you and me. And I think episode six is probably the closest one to my book, where we have three cases of these young children who remember their past lives and Jim Tucker is there and he’s investigating the cases and they’re you know, that’s a little more scientifically oriented.

Alex Tsakiris:[00:21:29] Remind people who Jim Tucker is.

Leslie Kean: [00: 21:32] He’s a chop, Jim Tucker is a child psychiatrist, he’s with the department or the division of Perceptual Studies at the University of Virginia. And this is an amazing place, I recommend that everybody go to the website of it’s abbreviated, we call it dops, DOPS. And look at what they do they are a group of scientists there, a large group of them who look at all these things they, and Jim is particularly focused on reincarnation cases. And he is following in the footsteps or I should say he really has his own footsteps now, but he took over the work of Ian Stevenson who was another psychiatrist who worked for decades, he was really the one that brought these cases into the world. I mean, he spent decades traveling around the world, documenting cases of young children who remember very specific details about previous lives, things they were not exposed to and couldn’t possibly know. And so he’s written volumes and volumes of case studies on these.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:22:31] Just interject people probably know this but one of the little points that’s interesting, and it is nicely done in the series again, is that the work originally began when he got a grant from I think, the Polaroid or Kodak

Leslie Kean: [00:22:48] TheOx ?

Alex Tsakiris: [00:22:48] TherOx yes, you’re exactly right. From the TherOx guy. I forget his name.

Leslie Kean: [00: 22:54] I forget his name.

Alex Tsakiris: [00: 22:55] Yeah and then he goes over to countries where reincarnation is accepted, right? So he goes over to Sri Lanka, India and stuff like that, where they’re more likely to be collecting these stories. And he does, he brings his very Western scientific approach. But then he does this and then the other research that him and Jim eventually get into is even physical evidence of like, that people who’ve know this research, it’s incredibly compelling that where there’s actually an injury, you know, oh, I was shot in the chest the last time I died, oh, there is a birthmark right there in my chest or whatever. So there’s, again, this super impressive work and then I just want to emphasize what you said, Jim Tucker, is a star. And he’s a star academically, intellectually, but also, he’s another guy like this Dr. Curve figure, that you just think there’s a lot going on here at a deeper spiritual level, in terms of what he’s bringing to the world, the light, the love, the comforting that he’s doing shit on a much more powerful spiritual level that we can all see right below the surface. But we like that he’s presenting it in a very straightforward, they’re here the facts, ma’am.

Leslie Kean:[00: 24:14] Yeah, well, two of the first case is a new case, actually and that didn’t you know, where there wasn’t as much data on that case. That’s the case of a mom in Indiana and a little boy named Atlas and you know, what’s fun about it is that we see Jim going to her house meeting her for the first time doing the processes that he does when he investigates a case and it’s not it’s not like it was fully fully fully fleshed out.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:24:39]

Described that scene it’s fantastic, I mean, she Googles this information then Jim comes in and what does he do? How does he get quote unquote, test?

Leslie Kean: [00:24:46] Well, he has and this is similar what he did with Ryan Hemans years ago, he has a kind of a photographic test. So this little boy remembered being another boy who was actually, died as a small child. So He wasn’t very old when he died. But he remembered the name of the child the name of the mom. And so Jim brought in a bunch of photographs and he brought five sets of photographs in. In each one had two different images. So five sets of two and they were very similar to each other the two images. So one of them, for instance, was a playground, which was right next, very close to where this boy in the previous life lived. Because the little Atlas, its settings to go to the playground. So he would show him like two pictures of the playground or whatever, the real playground and then another playground that looked a lot like it and he did this for five times. He also included a picture of the previous parent, Mom, the previous Dad, you know, things that they’re like, it’s like a recognition test, almost like what’s Tibetan Buddhists do? You know, only with these photographs, and it was amazing to watch Atlas, you might agree, Alex, how just and Jim commented on this, he was just so like, there was no need to figure anything out. He just, that one, you know, he would right away, he knew, which was the real one, the one he recognized. And in all five of them, he got the right, and Jim comments afterwards that, you know, five out of five is pretty significant and really mean something. And he was also commenting just as a psychiatrist, just how much confidence the boy had and how sure he was of everything he pointed to there was no hesitation, there was no Hmm, let me say, you know, none of that. So that was really a wonderful thing to film and to watch.

Alex Tsakiris: [00: 26:35] It was a wonderful thing to watch, for me, it was just the subtext of it is as exactly as you described, one, Jim Tucker is just, he’s just a guy that’s operating at a much deeper level. So he’s talking about five out of five of these photos. He’s not trying to convince you of the statistical significance. He’s more pulling you in and the way that you said it. Did you see the boys reaction? Did you see how he responded to, look at that photo of his mom, and he’s a little bit sheepish about because he knows his quote, unquote, mom is here and he says, his old mom, and you know, all the stuff that you can, it’s next level stuff people in terms of what reincarnation, we don’t know what reincarnation is, we don’t know what reincarnation means. We just know the profound experience that this guy said it and add to, you know, the other little cultural aspects that the previous point died tragically in 2005 and Atlas is born in 2011 so what does that mean in terms of reincarnation? He, you know, I love the the racial implications, right? The boy was an African American kid in Brooklyn, and you can’t be a whiter guy with it. And he says, He initially says to his mom, I love this. Imagine if you’re this kid’s mom, and he goes, Yeah, I really miss going to the park. Like you said the playground.

Leslie Kean: [00:28:04] Right.

Alex Tsakiris:[00: 28:05] Oh, really? You mean when I took you to the playground? And he goes, No, my mom with the really pretty hair. But that’s gotta be hard to listen to nomadic reincarnation or not.

Leslie Kean: [00: 28:18] And that was mild compared to what some parents have had to deal with you know, and these really, really intense cases. But yeah, and then when he, when Jim Tucker was interviewing the little boy Atlas, and he pointed to the picture, he says, that’s my mom and then Jim says, Oh, you mean this mom? Or you know, your mom here? And he goes, No, my other mom or my what? No, my old mom, he says. No, my old mom. It’s just chilling to see that happen. This child is just being totally genuine in the moment, you know. So it was in, because we didn’t have any current case for a while, we were hoping so much that have something to be able to include that was happening now and that we could bring Jim in on it and fortunately this case happened for us. So it’s just such a beautiful way to open up that episode because after that, we go into these two other cases that have been thoroughly researched and have a lot of data and a lot of complexities and lasted for years and really affected the parents and you know, just more intense than the one and we went and revisited the boys now as 15 year old and 21 year old’s, these two famous cases, which I think is the only time they’ve ever really gone on camera like this for you know, anything.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:29:36] Compelling, compelling stuff, again, for people who followed any of this research that interview with Ryan, when he goes out to LA, please set that up because we have to talk about it because I think it’s super important on this next level kind of thing.

Leslie Kean: [00:29:56] I mean, that was an awkward scene in LA, very complicated. But anyway Ryan, so I wrote about this case in my book in some detail and he was, when I covered it in my book, of course, I just spoke about it, him as a five year old, a four and five and six year old was when all this stuff was happening and just to summarize it, he basically had 55, literally 55 memories of this previous life that were able to be verified as accurate. So it was a long process to find who he was in the previous life.

Alex Tsakiris: [00: 30:28] Tell the story, tell the story again.

Leslie Kean: [00: 30:29] Yeah.

Alex Tsakiris: [00: 30:29] For folks who don’t know it’s a great story

Leslie Kean: [00:30:30] Okay.

Leslie Kean: [00:54:53] Thank you for honoring this series and for all your comments and for watching it and inviting me to come on. I really appreciate it.

Alex Tsakiris: [00: 55:02] Oh, you’re so welcome. Our guest again has been the incredible Leslie Kean. That series again is Surviving Death , check it out on Netflix. You will not regret it. Thanks again, Leslie. Take care.

Leslie Kean: [00: 55:16] Great to be with you Alex. Take care.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:55:22] Thanks again to Leslie Kean for joining me today on Skeptiko the one question I’d have to tee up from this episode is, What was your favorite episode in the series? See how I’m trying to lead you on to watch the series on Netflix because it was really, really good. So what was your favorite? Let me know of course, please do it a Skeptiko forum. I’d love to hear from you over there. I have a bunch of good shows coming up. Stick with me for all of that. Until next time, take care. Bye for now.

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