Terje Simonsen, The Future of Parapsychology |496|

Terje Simonsen, on the where parapsychology has been and where it’s headed.

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THE BOOK: A Short History of (Nearly) Everything Paranormal: Our Secret Powers Telepathy, Clairvoyance & Precognition

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Skeptiko-496-Terje-Simonsen

Audio Clip: [00:00:00] Do you do problems? No. Never? I always found them irrelevant, positions that never come up in actual games. Let me show you what I think you might like.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:00:13] That’s a clip from a Netflix show called The Queen’s Gambit about a woman chess player and I have an interview coming up in a minute with Terje Simonsen, who has written an excellent book about parapsychology. But as you’ll hear, we want to talk about a lot of other things, including chess.

Terje Simonsen: [00:00:33] I used to play chess with the Grand master of the Ordo Templi orientis, here in Norway. And he is quite famous because you know, The Norwegian black metal familiar in the music, they were famous for burning churches, and he was some kind of ideological load staff for them you know, Seaman Miska. And he did not to respect me because, you know, I tried to be a good guy and somehow I felt he was despising that because I wanted out for power and conjuring spirits. And so, but after I beat him seven times in a row in chess, he started respecting.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:01:09] But we did talk about parapsychology too. And I think there is a strangeness to where parapsychology has gone. It’s just made itself irrelevant. And I think part of the reason it’s made itself irrelevant is because it’s tried to thread that needle in a way that divorces itself from spirituality.

Terje Simonsen: [00:01:32] Very interesting. I share lots of your say, General considerations about this. What I miss in parapsychology is the say, the existential aspect of it.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:01:47] Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers and their critics. I’m your host Alex Tsakiris and today we welcome Terje Simonsen to Skeptiko. Terje has a new book , it’s republication of a book but he’s added some stuff, It’s a great book. A Short History of nearly everything paranormal, our secret powers, telepathy, clairvoyance and pre cognition. This is a book that is getting a lot of attention. It won the 2019 Book Award from the Parapsychology Association.It’s gotten very nice reviews and accolades from no less than Dean Raidn and other folks in the parapsychology community. So it’s really quite an accomplishment and Terje It’s great to have you on Skeptiko. Thanks for joining me.

Terje Simonsen : [00:02:45] Thanks for having me, I’m so good. I have always admired the interviews you have done, so yeah.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:02:51 ] We’ll see what you think at the end. We are going to have a good time. You know the Skeptiko drill, there’s so much to cover. I want to say that this book is is great. Anyone who is interested in parapsychology will enjoy this book. And I think we’ll find it important, it fills in a lot of gaps, I mean I feel like I know this field pretty well and there was a bunch of stuff I ran across, I didn’t know that or it filled in a little piece of this or that so there’s a lot to be gained from this book and it is quite extensive. So I’m really, really excited that you’ve put it out and I think a lot of people will want to have it as part of their collection. And as a way, I say that sometimes but you know, this is a great way to introduce other people to some of the stuff you’re always nagging them about if you’re into parapsychology, and you’re saying Rupert Sheldrake and you’re saying Dean Radin, and you’re saying these other people to put all that stuff into a context. Very, very well done so congrats on that.

Terje Simonsen: [00:04:02 ] Thanks a lot.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:04:06] So, that out of the way, I want to jump right into kind of the deep end of the pool. I know that you’ve studied this field a lot. Tell people more about your background, you know I pulled up your Wikipedia pag and very interesting I mean, Norwegian Historian, I’m not even sure how that fits into all this but I don’t know what that means. It sounds interesting and then as I was just kidding around here, I was kidding around about playing chess on the weekends with Magnus and then you said Yo, you have played with this trainer so you must be quite an accomplished chess player as well, which is kind of a little aside. But tell us a little bit about yourself, your background and how you came to do this. You’re also interested in the Esoteric stuff in general and Book of Enoch. There’s a lot of interesting stuff in your background. Tell us more about it.

Terje Simonsen: [00:04:59 ] Well , my personal interest is, I think every kid is interested in fairy tales so I read quite a lot, say Norwegian folk tales, and also these Arabian stuff, 1001 Nights and also Greek Myths and Norse Mythology and all that. And what you’ll find in this part of these traditions, which is of course fantasy, is lots of magical stuff of different kinds. So I became interested in that and also, but of course at that time it was just as I say, fairy tales and fantasy. But I later became part of Christian Youth Club and I witnessed some strange phenomena and also people who I trusted told me about strange experiences, and I had no reason to disbelief what they told me. And so later also, I discussed with my family for instance, my grandfather, he was an engineer and he also told me about having experienced kind of paranormal stuff. So then it somehow went from being just fantasy and fairy tales to get into the real life and I also met some people later that gave me quite good demonstrations of Clairvoyance and Telepathy. So at that point in time, I find that I had to study this and I started because what if you go in and say in a Christian connection, they will often say, if such things happen, for instance, a healing they will say, this healing is from God or it’s from Satan you know, there’s no way you can round them. And I felt that could be a bit strange because if you really helped some people getting better how could that be from Satan you know, so it didn’t quite fit my view of a good explanatory model in this. And also I found that many of these traditional psychic phenomena were reported from different traditions all over the world. You could go to shamanic traditions for instance, and European esoteric tradition, Sufi Mysticism and so, and you will find these phenomena. So this black and white God Satan explanatory model that did not fit my need here. So I started studying parapsychology and also occultism and magic and all these esoteric traditions. And then I saw how I felt when get closer to this and I also started to study at the Norwegian University of Oslo and I got a mentor, Professor Jan-Erik Ebbestad Hansen, I think he is the greatest Norwegian expert in occultism. And he is, you will find his publication list is more than 100 publications, articles, books and different kinds. So I got him as a mentor and he asked me to write about Norwegian’s very important cultural journal called Janus, which was made by the anthroposophical society you know, with Rudolf Steiner, this Austrian spiritual teacher and also Steiner was Dr. In philosophy, he was not just kind of clairvoyant and mystic, he was really quite a clever academic as well. So somehow from a personal interest in fairy tales and just some say, spread observation from different traditions, it became more serious also in a scholarly way then, so he guided me into this Anthroposophy, and also somehow we ended up making a book about this, in Norwegian connection, very important cultural journal. Many great Norwegian writers have been, say searching for a higher meaning you know, there have been quite a lot of both atheism and also other reactions to what’s conservative Christianity of course, mostly healthy reactions. But people still ask the questions about the meaning of life and many Norwegian intellectuals that did not fit in either the Christian or the atheistic, they found their meaning and purpose of it in Anthroposophy. So, and also in Norway, the Steiner school, or Waldorf school I think it’s called internationally, is a quite strong influence. So very many, for instance the former prime minister of Norway, he is now chief of NATO, Jens Stoltenberg, he has gone to this Waldorf school.So it’s quite a strong, say, intellectual spiritual tradition in Norway based on Anthroposophy. So that piece would come. So I also dealt with quite a lot of people in that milieu, and they gave me support Also and so as I said, it’s a long journey starting out with Norwegian folktales. And, and strange stories in in the Christian community to do to do a full blown academic, I would not say career, but at least research and some publication since, as you said, I also published about the first book of Enoch, which is a very interesting, esoteric texts from antiquity that probably had quite a lot of influence on the Christianity. But say the bishops did not take it into the Canon in the western canon, it was part of the Ethiopian canon in the Coptic church. And also I wrote about Martin Buber very important to Jewish philosopher. And his, as many probably know, he’s a philosopher of dialogue, and he is from this Hasidic tradition, which is Eastern European Jewish mysticism, which say, ultimately is based on an interpretation of the Kabbalah. So, I have done different kind of, say, research forays into this esoteric tradition, and also published in writing also have been done a bit on this more classical hermetic tradition, with Renaissance roccultism, which was part of the very same flowering milieux in Italy in Quattrocento, the 14th century, very important part, this platonic Academy was started by a philosopher, Marsilio Ficino, under the auspices of the great bankier Cosimo de’Medici. So I have liked to see phenomenon, not just as: ‘Oh, that is strange’, ‘Oh, that was curious.”, but I like to see the long lines and the big pictures and all the connections, you know, so that is my say, academic and scholarly approach. But personally, it has been a very interesting journey, you know, to get to do I have interviewed about, I think, close to 100, clairvoyant, persons from different traditions, people from Jamaica,from a Canadian tradition, Norwegian Sami traditions , Native American traditions, Indian traditions, and so, so this, also this anthropological approach to see both similarities and differences between different kind of spiritual traditions all over the world. So that is also part of it, you know, like to somehow go up to the top of the mountain, and to see, get a broad view of the spiritual landscape, both the cultural, say, anthropological, and also the historical, you know. So the more overview you can get, the better it is.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:13:04] I’m glad you went through all that, I wouldn’t have necessarily pulled that from the book, which is going to be something interesting that we’re going to want to talk about, I hope we can get back to this very interesting needle threading of the Norse traditions, the magical traditions, the shamanic traditions of the Scandinavian people. And then this polarization insists in your society, European society, Western society, of Christianity on one side and atheism on the other side because a lot of times the US when we think of the Northern European countries, we think of them as being very atheistic you know, that’s how it comes through to us. And that is certainly very limiting when we want to talk about some of the stuff we’re going to talk about today. So maybe the first question I’d have, as it relates to parapsychology and this book is, what do you think, I mean, this is kind of a limited view. I started at parapsychology too, because I felt like in a way, it’s kind of a safe sciency way to explore some of this stuff. But I also felt it was limiting and I felt it was looming pretty quickly. And I always remember a friend of mine, Steve Volk, who wrote a terrific book called Fringeogeology, and Steve is a investigative reporter so he has the kind of sensibility for this. But he wrote a great chapter in that book about going to the parapsychology association conference, and they’re all atheists. And it’s like…

Terje Simonsen: [00:14:47] Yes, yes.

Alex Tsakiris: [00: 14:47] And like the fuck guys, that’s it? At the end of the day that’s what you came up with? And I think there is a strangeness to where parapsychology has gone and what its future is, which is, it’s just irrelevant, It’s just made itself irrelevant. And I think part of the reason it’s made itself irrelevant, is because it’s tried to thread that needle in a way that divorces itself from spirituality. And I wonder, I know that’s kind of jumping right into the deep end of the pool. But that’s where I wanted to go so that’s kind of a big one. What do you think about where para psychology is heading and the state of it right now, today?

Terje Simonsen: [00:15:36] Very interesting. Yeah, I share lots of your say, General considerations about this. What I miss in parapsychology is the say, the existential aspect of it. So I totally agree with you. But on the other hand, you have great guys as to say it being Dean Raidn and he does in fact write good articles that are published in respectable journals. So with guys, like him in the field, I think it will still be saved somehow. But as you said, it’s a limiting approach. And if you, say, go into the Jungian tradition – where you ask for the depth of the soul, you know, and the bigger picture, which means a personal engagement – that is a much more fruitful approach, as I see it. And also, decidedly, the strength of the phenomena that you will experience both in, say, personal life and also if you do research, will be much stronger.And then you deal with those things existentially, rather than you deal with it just a kind of a detached observer. Because really, I write about this in the book also, if I may be allowed: I compare it to a sexologist, you know, doing erection -research on people sunken down in a pool of ice cold water, you know. And, as I said, then the frame-conditions really, really hinder the phenomenon in question from arising, so to say… So I’m trying to be a bit funny.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:17:24] I get it and I think I get also, I mean Dean Radin, world class, top notch and also there’s a certain, you know baptism by fire that the parapsychologists have gone through that is to be admired. But a lot of those people have kind of stayed outside of quote unquote, parapsychology like Rupert Sheldrake you know you talk about him a lot in the book. He’s never carried that tag, right? I mean, parapsychology, he has kind of a, okay if you want to throw me in that group, but that’s not really who I am, I’m a Cambridge biologist. Dean Radin, it’s different because ions came along at a very early point and funded his work, which is fantastic because again, he’s a world class scientist and some of the experiments he’s done. The pre sentiment experiment is pivotal, pivotal to our whole understanding of kind of nailing that down from a six sigma result kind of thing. Similarly with his double slit experiment with the photon beam and the mediator I mean that is on par with you know, the original research that those guys did 100 years ago you know. All that all that research that was done by Schrodinger and Niels Bohr, and all that stuff, I mean, that is of that level, it’s an extension of that but it really moves it forward. But, so I kind of want to recover on the bashing of parapsychology because the work we both agree, is absolutely essential, It’s fundamental to kind of moving forward. And they’ve done a lot of that work, I would suggest as you were kind of alluding to a little bit, they’ve kind of obsoleted themselves a little bit because once they show that we really can’t measure everything which is, I think the main finding from parapsychology is that materialism is dead basically , materialistic science is dead. So from there, where do you go next? And then it starts getting very esoteric, if you will. And I don’t know if they have the tools to do that. It’s interesting that Dean Radin latest book is on magic or spirit.

Terje Simonsen: [00:17:24 ] Yeah, yeah.

Alex Tsakiris: [00: 17:25] So I think he sees the dilemma there and wants to bring the lab to it. But there’s another aspect of this that I really want to touch on because you don’t talk about it in the book, but I think you’re I wonder what you’re holding back on this one of my favorite points in the book and we could probably spend an hour on this one right here, but you have a point where Verner von Braun turns to Fletcher, who is, it’s James Fletcher I think, who’s running NASA. And he says, oh give them the money, GM. We all know this stuff is real. Tell us the scene there, fill out the rest of that scene and then let’s talk a little bit about what’s going on there.

Terje Simonsen: [00:20:31] This was the American project, normally referred to as Star Gate, where the American military and CIA for about 20 years tried to use psychic spies.

And this was part of and say, The Cold War. The Russians had started many laboratories to do psychic warfare. And they thought that if the Russians have these kind of people on their rosters that we have to have them as well. There was a conference where Russell Targ, who also was a colleague of Hal Puthof, they were trying to get funding for the research at the Stanford Institute, Research Institute, very closely linked to to Stanford University. And they had been doing already some research with Ingo Swann, a very famous medium and they wanted to somehow institutionalize their research. And they asked Fletcher, said to Jim Fletcher – who was the leader of NASA – for money, and then Wernher vion Braun turned to them and said exactly what you said, and then they got them on and…

Alex Tsakiris: [00:21:55] There’s a lot more to this story that we have to fill in and you told part of it, but who is Wernher von Braun, for people who don’t know.

Terje Simonsen: [00:22:01] I took for granted that he was known from beforhand, and Wernher von Braun was the rocket guy who worked for Hitler. He was running the V2 program that sent some beasts of rockets over the English channel during the Second World War. And there is this very relevant biography about him. He was not very bright at school until he understood that mathematics could help him send up rockets. Then he started already school about making his own small rockets and you know, and putting fire to some neighbor’s houses and everything you know, so he was really dedicated to his rocket projects and a fantastic engineer. He was kind of opportunists. He was not really Nazi, but he was not very opposed to the Nazis, as long as the Nazis founded his research.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:22:54] Maybe on that, I don’t know, I’ve heard other accounts you know, I mean, his biography is certainly going to spin it that way. He was brown shirt before he had to be brown shirt. And he was SS, you know so, but he was also project paperclip. Which factors in very importantly to this right, so at the end of the war we would go in and we grab as many scientists as we can and Russia does. And so his buddies, his project paperclip buddies, were in MK Ultra and like, that’s one of the things that I didn’t get from the book, but you know, Star Gate, Hall Puddof and Russell Targ, their boss is Sidney Gottlieb. They’re in MK Ultra, they are in MK Ultra and MK is from the German mind control. And it’s picking up the work of what the Nazis were doing in terms of mind control. And this isn’t like fantasy you know, conspiracy stuff. This is just what happened. So it’s kind of an interesting connection and I think there’s a lot of threads to the MK Ultra stuff that have to be fleshed out in the Star Gate stuff because sometimes we talk about Star Gate and remote viewing, again in this kind of very parapsychology, nerdy you know, oh they were just doing these cool experiments things, It’s like, now as part of a program to you know, really, really dig into what could be done with the mind and that whole thing about the Russian competition, no doubt, no doubt true, but no doubt also a cover story for what we wanted to do because it’s not like, we were just like, Oh God, we being the US, were just like oh gosh, they’re doing it, we have to do it. It was more like, let’s get in there and…

Terje Simonsen: [00: 24:56] It is really very complex, but my perception – I’m definitely not really deep into this – but if you go into it you’ll find they have done some kind of rather ugly mind control experiments already in the 50s. Because this remote viewing program we are talking about, Star Gate, is rather from the 60s and 70s, and even 80s and 90s. But already in the 50s, there was some very ugly stuff going on that really killed people. And there were lots of things like inducing psychosis, you know, with mind altering drugs and all that, which is really evil and, say, bad stuff.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:06:05] We don’t know the consciousness of animals and how far it extends into this extended rome that we’re talking about you know, one of the jumping off points, I think for parapsychology as we talked about, from the very beginning you know, the important part of this book and I really appreciate you allowing us to go to this kind of level three and talk about all these things that aren’t directly related to the book. But this is foundational, this book the short history of everything paranormal. And this deep, deep dive into all these experiments that have been done as part of parapsychology are fundamental. I mean, you can’t have this level three conversation we’re talking about, if you don’t know the body of research, if you don’t know the basic history and I think you understand from this conversation, that TJ is extremely accomplished in not only that, but he’s taking in all these different directions. So support this guy who’s done all this research by purchasing the book and by supporting his work. And if you can, I’m going to do it right after this show, write a review of the book on Amazon, authors really liked that and no one ever does it. And I’m certainly going to do it right as soon as we finish up this interview. So with With that being said, I guess I’ll skip over the animal part of consciousness, although I think you’ve kind of touched on that in an important way. And kind of what I want to talk about is, I want to go back to this Norse tradition and I want to pull it in a completely different direction and just pick your mind a little bit. One of the most interesting interviews I’ve done in a while is with a near death experience researcher named Gregory Shuhan and what he did is this kind of cross cultural analysis of near death experiences throughout history. And he found that so many, virtually all the traditions he looked at their after life beliefs, were informed by near death experiences. So and these are you know, accounts are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years old. I wonder in your investigation, both across cultures, but particularly in the Norse culture, are there any interesting connections to this traveling to this afterlife space that you’ve run across that you think are interesting or worth talking about?

Terje Simonsen :[01:08:43] Interesting approach! We have of course reports from those phenomena also in Norway. In fact, the most famous one is from when Christianity had appeared, from the Middle Ages, from the 13th century. There’s a very famous story about a guy who fell asleep, and somehow was transported to The Other World for about 14 days. And also in some Norwegian folk tales, we have people passing over to The Other Side and coming back. But I don’t know if, say, if it’s also in the sagas. I’d have to think about that right here, if the sagas also tell about these stories. Of course, they have lots of other, say, descriptions about what’s happened on The Other Side and so, but…

Alex Tsakiris: [01:09:35] As an aside here, I mentioned one of the really interesting things about his research that I think speaks to it is he found a lot of cultures where they would have the sagas as you’re saying it or the myths. And then someone in the culture, in the group would have a near death experience you know, they’d get hit on the head or they’d be wounded and they would try and they would come back and they would say, this is how it happened. And they would change their belief system. So the shaman would then come and say you know what, guys, you know, Tertia really did it. So you know, maybe we need to change the thing about boat sailing into the river with fire and you know…

Terje Simonsen: [01:10:16] Yeah, yeah.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:10:18] Found that over and over again, I thought that was extremely interesting.

Terje Simonsen: [01:10:22] Very, yes, yeah. Do you know, this field is so enormous! So I cannot go into all, but it’s very interesting what you say. Also if you read the old Greek myths, the Orphic traditions, for instance. And Plato; he refers to a very interesting history of, you know, when…

Alex Tsakiris: [01:10:43] The battlefield nation.

Terje Simonsen: [01:10:44] Yes, yes. And fantastic stories they are everywhere. But, as said, that so many, when you go into this traditions, I’ve seen so many similarities, but also quite a lot of differences that somehow reflects the culture the way the experience occurs. So it’s difficult to say, what is part of the core shamanism and what is some more arbitrary cultural, historical dependent factors. And that might also be that even the spiritual world develops. Goldstein, I will tell you that that somehow the angels are is not only we get information from the angels, but even the angels learn from us and our experience. So our evolution interferes with the evolution of The Spirit World. So maybe The Spiritual World is not a fixed field, but it’s a field developing itself. That could be the case – probably IS the case – you know. But that’s difficult to know, you know. Yeah.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:11:47] That is quite profound I think. So Terje with that, where do you see your investigation of the paranormal, in particularly parapsychology? Where do you see that going in the future with this book, and with other projects you might work on?

Terje Simonsen: [01:12:06] Now? Very interesting. Well, as I tried to say, I feel some kind of intuitive guidance for what I do when I write. Now, I’m just out there, trying to speak about the book and the themes in it. And so I will do probably for the next two years, I suppose, to get it really out there. But I could be interested in writing about spirits and angels – and that’s because there are quite a lot of reports of people meeting spirits and angels – and that aspect. So this is something that is there. I have read a lot about it, but I have not gone deeply enough into it to write a book about it. So that could be the next 500 page book, I think; about spirits and angels.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:13:00] As you mentioned right there about this book which is a rerelease. There’s a lot of work that’s gone into it obviously you’ve collected so much and it is over 500 pages .It is extremely well written.

Terje Simonsen: [01:13:12] Thank you.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:13:13] Very, it’s very easy to read and absorb and it’s also packed with a lot of information. So again, if this is at all a field that you’re interested in and if you’re still here an hour and a half later, you must be interested in it. Check out this book and support this author in his important work. Terje it’s been absolutely fantastic, thank you for allowing me to go in so many different and hopefully interesting directions.

Terje Simonsen: [01:13:41] Thank you Alex. I could say also there has happened so many strange phenomena when writing this book, you know, and a friend of mine said: You have to write a book about the book! Because there have been, you know, precognition, there has been telepathy, there have been strange phenomena covering the whole process. I have here, two meters beside me here, I have two audio cassettes from 1989, made by an extremely psychic woman here in Norway. And as far as I can listen, whatever she says, you know, she described what I am experiencing today on those two cassettes from 1989. It’s crazy. I would not believe this, if not experienced myself. But the point of that is linear time. You know, it’s not that real, all that real. There’s aspects of us that transcends the linear time.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:14:34] You know I can’t quite leave that set because that would be another direct finding, if you will, scientific finding of this work that you’re documenting in the book, right. So one thing that parapsychology kind of nails completely is exactly what you’re saying that we always knew that linear time was an illusion. And now it is, you know so Dean Radin’s present MIT experiment again, which he replicates more than just about any experiment in history and gets a six sigma result which if you know anything about statistics is over the chart.

Terje Simonsen: [01:15:11] I know.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:15:11] That experiment is presentiment it’s transcending getting outside of space time, isn’t it? I mean…

Terje Simonsen: [01:15:19] Yes, and he also did experiment, with a Nobel Prize winning chemist, with Kary Mullis, who passed away two years ago. And Kary Mullis has confirmed that he went through this experiment, and it worked for him; he was able to see the future, even if it was just a few seconds, and he said: ‘I was able to perceive three seconds into the future and that should not be possible’. So this Nobel prize winning, trailblazing chemist has confirmed the validity of the evidence in Radin’s research.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:15:55] And then the final comment we would have to make as an exclamation point on what you just said because it relates back to a really interesting point you made about your personal spiritual journey is that we are all engaged in this field, perhaps. That we are both getting from it and giving to it. And I think that speaks to what you’ve done here with this book in terms of adding to the field and then the field is coming back and adding to your life you said quite directly in terms of accurate experiences.

Terje Simonsen: [01:16:32] Thank you, Alex. I like that.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:16:34] Quite wonderful. Terje It’s awesome talking to you, thanks again so much.

Terje Simonsen: [01:16:40] Thank you for having me.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:16:42] Thanks again to Terje for joining me today on Skeptiko. The one question I’d have to tee up from this interview is what do you think the future of parapsychology is? And the second part of that question is to what extent does the pair political aspect that I keep alluding to, what does that mean for the future of parapsychology? If you think that exists, maybe you think it doesn’t? Let me know your thoughts. Not getting a lot of response to these questions. Are you interested in these questions? Are these the right questions? Are there other questions to ask? Let me know more stuff coming up on Skeptiko. Stay with me for all of that. Until next time, take care and bye for now.

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