Dr. Robert Davis… spiritually transformative experiences… ET and NDE and DMT and Samadhi.

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[00:00:00] Alex Tsakiris: getting real about the big picture questions.

[00:00:07] Clip: We have comfort, science, medicine, technology, and the physical world.

We searched for something greater beyond our understanding.

We search for the origin of the universe. The greatest conceivable existant.

[00:00:23] Alex Tsakiris: And how the data from a variety of spiritually transformative experiences is staring us right in the face.

[00:00:31] Dr. Robert Davis: People who, undergo these things are transformed in, in so dramatic ways . . , how do you explain the fact that atheists now believe in, . Supreme beings after having these spiritual, transformative experiences or dramatically change . , their opinions on, on major aspects of philosophical and personal life, .

[00:00:51] Alex Tsakiris: That first clip is kind of interesting. It’s from the movie proximity when he comes down looking for Jesus or just somebody who can tell them what the real story is. And the second clip was from returning guests. The very excellent doctor, Robert Davis, who I believe is really tapping into the keys of the kingdom when it comes to understanding E T and that is understanding spiritually transformative experiences. This is kind of a wide ranging discussion. But I think it lands on a couple of really important points. I hope you enjoy it.

Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversy of science and spirituality. I’m joined today by Dr. Robert Davis. Bob has been on the show a couple of times. He’s kind of a go-to guy for me because, well, a couple things. One, he has just this stellar academic background, all the credentials, n i h grants published, peer reviewed journals, all that stuff.

And then he goes off and he writes all these terrific books about all this off the wall stuff like spiritually transformative experiences, consciousness beyond the biological robot, meaningless universe, nonsense, UFOs, just because it comes up, Kundalini stuff. So he just recently, , sent me this. , which is a paper you just published in Edge Magazine, which is from the Journal of Scientific Exploration, which if you know this show, you know, it’s a terrific journal. It’s peer reviewed, top-notch people who are thinking outta the box but are really doing science. So Bob publishes this paper, spiritually Transformative Experience, triggers great stuff, piqued my interest, uh, particularly as it relates to tying just a, a lot of stuff together that is, um, Like for all of us, that is us listening to Skeptiko.

We get it. We get that. You can’t just talk about, um, consciousness without talking about near-death experience, autobody experience, psychedelic experience, maybe ET experience. And so what Bob is doing is kind of putting that all on the table again in a scientific way and saying, Hey, maybe we need to talk about all this stuff together in order to have a meaningful discussion.

But then Bob made the mistake. Of sending me a video he has recently stumbled across, which many of us have seen by this time, with Dr. , Gary Nolan at the Salt Connections, which if you’re unfamiliar, it’s kinda like Ted Talk kind of thing, like beefed up Ted Talk kind of thing where he says 100% aliens have already arrived.

So I am just laying the groundwork here and also for my friend Bob, to let him know that buddy, you, you’ve kind of, uh, laid, laid the foundation from me, pulling you in a million directions beyond spiritually transformed experiences and, uh, let’s get to it. Right.

[00:04:11] Dr. Robert Davis: Oh, please. I look forward to it. And thank you.

I can’t, I can’t follow up on , that introduction. Uh, thank you , , for that. You know, this is a chess game. , and, and there are so many pieces out there that that one tries to make sense of. And I, and I did that my whole life in a, in a scientific, uh, setting, you know, laboratory setting, of course, in a published or parish environment.

And, and since retirement, , I dedicate that same level of curiosity. To what I deem to be the most important questions of, of our time of all times. , you know, what is the nature of reality? What’s consciousness? All of these things that we don’t, that language can’t ideally ex explain, express the subjective experience, , the interactions with alternate realms, non-human intelligences, cos whomever, the deceptions and lies that are out there by so-called experts that we hear brain hacking, uh, galore, misinformation abounds,

[00:05:10] Alex Tsakiris: , but wait a minute.

, why do you put those things together necessarily? Like that’s the level that’s hold and that’s the level three stuff that you and I will talk about. And then sometimes I think we breeze past things in a way that doesn’t let other people into the conversation we’re having.

Because for you to say spiritually transformative experiences, Clearly if you study them scientifically as you have, they, we start to see these patterns across these all sorts of these experiences, patterns across near-death experience, out of body experience, psychedelic experience, dare we say, ET experiences.

So you break that down in a scientific way and you write the papers and read it and we all go, wow, there’s these cultural filters that we can apply on it. But when we strip past our individual personality, there seems to be what science would call an observable pattern.

But Bob, you can’t start laying on the deception and the misinformation cuz that NEC doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with that. Why is it so hard for. Other academics, intellectuals, people we rely on to kind of do the full stop with just where you’re at with the spiritually transformative experiences, which seems obvious and say, okay, that’s a reality that we have to deal with.

Why do we have deception and misinformation

[00:06:39] Dr. Robert Davis: on top of that? Well, it, it’s unfortunate and, and it, that, that some of that exists, it see certainly exists in all levels of society and certainly in ufology, . , uh, because of the existing misinformation that we have all been exposed to. And we continually hear that trying to seek the truth.

Now, if you, even today as we speak, for instance, NASA is having a hearing on the, on UAPs. Uh, the arrow just had it, you know, I would focus on the scientific evidence for, uh, any definitive word when, when people start going into this spiritual transformative experiences, which I don’t denounce, I, I fully, uh, am a proponent of the evidence and, and continue to try to seek ways in which we can make sense of it.

In, in like a, uh, trying to separate the sense of the nonsense, uh, the misinformation from what truly is scientific. In other words, And not biased by even science itself. I see misinformation in science because the explanations for these near death outta body, Kundalini, et cetera, uh, experience that transform people in remarkable permanent ways.

Uh, and they try to seek explanations with fierce determination from that moment forward. Their explanations are discipline specific. They’re biased. So we are being fed not intentionally with misinformation, but with inaccurate biased, uh, perspectives that are based on one’s previous educational, uh, experience.

If I’m a neuroscientist and I do an experiment with giving somebody d m T and they say they interacted with non-human entities, perceived an alternate reality, and now they believe in a deity where before they were atheists and they’re, and life after death in the whole nine yards, and they’re transformed.

And this has happened. We see this in studies at John Hopkins and in other places. Well, that’s meaningful. That means something, but, but does that really mean the person interact with an alternate realm as they claim and believe during their nine to five job in an office setting at this time, even though it happened, you know, five years ago, it’s real like the back of their hand.

Yet the neuroscientist will give an explanation that’s brain-based ego dissolution based on connectivity increases in this region versus, you know, that point of view when in fact that could be a, misinformation may be the wrong term, but the reader, the reader is misinformed or, uh, don’t, is interpreting it too literally.

[00:09:19] Alex Tsakiris: . Hold on. Let me lemme pause you there because Sure. We, we might start mixing things together again in a way that I wanna really. Make a concerted effort to pull apart. So you ha I have this experience, right? I’m in the Rick Strassman studies in New Mexico, they’re ordained by the government where you’re gonna gimme D M T I take the D M t I go and I go into the Shapeshifter world, the shaman world, and I see these other things and they look a lot like what et contactees have described and this and that.

I have that experience and as you describe it, that experience is real to me. And then as you point out in your books, , which are terrific because your books are not just scien, they are scientific because you’re a scientist , but they’re also experiential. , . I , you have experience with the U F O phenomena. You have experience with the after death realm, whatever. Even though we can’t describe that completely. So you’re kind of coming at this from a different perspective. And I think when you then talk about, the neurologist who’s trying to process that.

I think we have to kind of make a, a, a, a cleaner break there in terms of that. Neurologist a lot of times is operating in this, . , as I call it, biological robot, meaningless universe, materialist perspective. That is just a major misstep. We don’t have to bring them into the club and say, oh, they have an opinion too.

No, they’re just kind of flat earthing it in a way. For somebody like you who’s looked at all this evidence and all this science, you would just kind of be nice, but you’d pat ’em on the head and say, you know, go do about 10 years of research and then come back. So I think sometimes we confuse the issue when we talk about the neurologist who is just not clued into, ha has this dogmatic view of things that has clouded their vision.

And we put that side by side with who we’re gonna talk about in a minute. Uh, a Dr. Gary Nolan, who from every way we look at it, is playing a game, man. He’s pedaling an agenda. He’s cia, he’s, and once you’re partially cia, you’re CIA all the way, and there’s all these other connections. So whether he is all that or not, I’m not against Gary Nolan.

It seems like a great guy to me, but I’m just saying that potentially is a different character on this playing field than your normal, you know, run of the mill. Sam Harris, just kind of clueless neuroscientist who’s caught up in their own, I’m an atheist, therefore I gotta protect my turf kind of thing.

Do you understand what I’m saying? Am I kind of belaboring a point there that, that that needs to be drawn out? Or is it obvious to everybody?

[00:12:06] Dr. Robert Davis: Yeah, the, the, there’s, there’s a lot there. And that’s, that’s why I approach it almost as, as if it is a chess game. You know, you, you bring up my personal experiences.

Yeah. I saw two orange jobs. I had a shared death experience, not near death, a shared death, . , a knowingness that my colleague died, which we discussed, uh, something that’s, uh, indescribable but intensely meaningful, uh, and had a kundalini awakening, . , remarkable energetic shift. Very positive, uh, very meaningful.

I’m not alone. It flipped me. . , like it does many, many people. . , and that has been well documented by, by, I think she was a, you interviewed her, a researcher professor at University of Argon. . , what’s going on. And then you have Straussman you mentioned with the DMT studies and John m the psychiatrist they met, they, they compared their notes between the, the people who claim to be had that interacted with non-human entities associated with the U A P and Straumann’s evidence with d DMT subjects.

And, and they were blown away, literally, quote unquote by the, the similarity of the ex experiences of these two distinctly dissimilar groups, . , and I take that and I embed that in the article. Then I’ll, I’ll take other pieces that I regard as quite interesting from so-called experts.

I, I try to seek out that, that kind of objective information as best as possible. Not that they’re correct, no means, nor is my interpretation of the evidence correct, but I’m trying to make sense of nonsense or misinformation. Not intentionally, not purposely, not always. Purposeful deception. Not always, but we see evidence of that certainly.

And we’ll get there, , to make a coherent hole as best as possible. So the neurologist will flat earth it, you know, will put, uh, his or her diet tribe on it. Discipline specific and bias as I mentioned. But, but then you have, uh, you mentioned Gary Nolan. I don’t know if you wanna go there now. Uh, well, regarding his field, a geneticist immunologist from Stanford University, Nolan Labs name after him when you go on and on with his vita.

And he comes out at the SALT conference just a few days ago and he says a hundred percent. , he believes a hundred percent ET is real and they’re here

[00:14:25] Alex Tsakiris: pause right there. Pause right there. We’ll play it.

[00:14:28] Clip: It would be helpful to qualify yourself because you are going to make some very bold statements here today, and I would love for people to understand why they should believe you.

And so perhaps can you give a little bit of your background? Sure. Um, so I’m a professor in the Department of Pathology at Stanford. Uh, the primary research work in my lab is cancer immunology, virology. We also do a lot of work in bio threat, so we’ve worked with Ebola, Zika, uh, COVID, um, when it was a big problem.

. , primarily the work in my lab is the development of instrumentation and algorithms to understand the complexity

of the immune system in cancer. And in

the process of doing that, we’ve created a, any of a number of technologies, which we spun out into companies. It’s now nine companies, two of them are on nasdaq.

Uh, and these immunology instruments are used pretty much around the world, uh, in almost any advanced immunology, uh, analysis and work. Understood. And I’m curious, do you believe that extraterrestrial intelligence. Has visited Planet Earth. I think you can go a step further. It hasn’t just visited. It’s been here a long time

and

it’s still here.

[00:15:41] Alex Tsakiris: . We’ll end it there and then we’ll, we’ll come back to it. . , but . , I wanna let you know where I’m going with Gary Nolan. Sure, sure. And that’s, that. I think he’s carrying water for somebody else. . So . What are you thinking when you see, . , Gary Noland, who is he to you? What is he doing? What is he talking about?

[00:16:00] Dr. Robert Davis: . . Gary, . , I think is the modern day version of John Mack. . , similarities and obvious differences.

Of course. John Mack, again, your audience, I’m sure is familiar with him for those not, he was, again, a psychiatrist at Harvard who had a fight for tenure after advocating again that he. Believe that people believe that they interacted with Monument Intelligence, et cetera. . , but Gary Nolan is saying that as it applies to, you would think the nuts and bolts we have, . . Some metamaterials, . , analyzing it.

I’m consulting with the C I A and others who have access to it, and, and he’s, you know, likely not disclosing it. And that’s why he maybe says I’m a hundred percent certain without disclosing it. . , not a purposeful disinformation, but a maybe, maybe a little misdirection saying he ha he’s convinced. . , he has the evidence, but it’s not the right time to share it.

And in a sense, uh, you know, he’s, he’s letting the cat out of the bag before the evidence in, in detail is provided. That’s the only thing I could think of why he says a hundred percent, . , unless he’s preparing us for some disclosure that’s about to happen, .

[00:17:08] Alex Tsakiris: But, but here, . Here’s the pause I gotta put in that, and that’s that, you know, this is who else, . , Gary Nolan is.

And I have, I’ve pulled up on the screen right now. Yeah, I got it. I got it. That he makes to fauci at the end. . , when Fauci retires, he says, thank you, Dr. Fauci, for your tremendously positive contributions to immunology and virology. And I just gotta play a couple other little clips into this one to fully put that.

Into context .

Cuz the first place I’d go with the Gary Nolan thing, which some people might have forgotten, but Diana Walsh Poko, who wrote the book, American Cosmic, which was extremely influential book. The main characters in that book are , two guys. And there are pseudonyms in the book. One is James and one is Tyler Durden.

And James is the good guy. He’s the guy who’s doing the real science. And, and here’s what she says about, , about James. And James is outed later as none other than Dr. Gary Nolan.

Okay.

[00:18:24] Clip: So the thing is is, and I thought, and I hoped that I could conveyed that. . , at first I was very suspicious and to the point of being frightened really, of a lot of the people that I met because they were not at a level that, you know, there were, these were not people that I’d ever met before, and there were some who were.

Professors and who were studying this as well, and I, I kind of bonded more with them. Like James in the book, I bonded with James a lot more and he’s a good friend of mine. And so, . , the other people that are, you know, way out there and doing the, that space

[00:18:59] Alex Tsakiris: . Can I just interject something because the weirdness never stops?

Yeah. That’s James, right? James is also an experiencer who’s had multiple experiences with ET if you wanna call it that for simple terms. And his main driving ambition research project is to kind of. Counteract this ability that ET has to seem to just bump into us in the extended consciousness realm wherever he wants.

And he wants to have greater control of that. so again, you know, maybe I’m making too big a deal out of this, but James hen Diana Walsh Paco’s book, which is this phenomenal book showing about the invisible college and how there’s these good guys. Who you can really trust. And I’m not gonna give you his name, his name is James, but his name is really Gary Nolan as it’s later revealed.

And he’s a good guy. He’s a scientist like I am, you know, cuz she’s a tenured professor in religious studies, right? But this is also Gary, in, , August of 2022 when he’s saying fauci tremendously positive contributions to immunology and virology. Now, I don’t have to remind folks, but I think I will, who Dr. Anthony Fauci turns out to be now in 2023. So, a, as I play these next couple clips into this, I want you to keep in mind, what is Gary thinking? How is Gary, the Stanford scientist, the Stanford immunologist? Now all the data’s in, you can analyze it, you can look across the board. How is he maintaining that position?

[00:20:37] Dr. Robert Davis: Given, given,

[00:20:39] Alex Tsakiris: yeah. Hold on one sec. Let me play it. I know I’m jabbering it up here, but that’s uh, I’m not gonna

[00:20:45] Dr. Robert Davis: That’s alright. I can apologize for that. I’m just gonna play it in. We’ll,

[00:20:48] Alex Tsakiris: plenty of time to talk. Let me get this. Sure.

Hey, conspiracy

[00:20:52] Dr. Robert Davis: theorists, as you know, questioning Albert Baller, CEO of Pfizer or Anthony Fauci, former head of everything important is basically an attack on site itself. So if there were a test that could have revealed that many of the laws and measures that were undertaken during the pandemic were unnecessary and the CDC ignored that test, then that will be what unscientific it depends on what they say it is stupid.

Yeah. Bloody conspiracy theorist. You remember Albert Baller saying the R FK in questioning certain medications is questioning science itself. . Anthony Fauci essentially said in a weird judge, dread I am science.

Let’s remind ourselves what these smug dictators were telling us just a matter of months ago and try to remember this is the world you’re still living in. This is the price you’re still paying.

[00:21:44] Alex Tsakiris: . Is your level of concern that

[00:21:46] Dr. Robert Davis: we’re gonna discredit public health

[00:21:48] Alex Tsakiris: officials to the point

[00:21:49] Dr. Robert Davis: of, you know,

[00:21:50] Alex Tsakiris: look at Russia.

[00:21:51] Dr. Robert Davis: I

[00:21:51] Alex Tsakiris: see you look at them and I raise you proxy war with them.

And

[00:21:54] Dr. Robert Davis: also we can say that they even caused Donald Trump. That’s not gonna

[00:21:57] Alex Tsakiris: work for long. They actually have a good vaccine and none of their citizens will take it cuz they don’t trust their own government.

[00:22:03] Dr. Robert Davis: It’s very dangerous,

[00:22:04] Alex Tsakiris: Chuck, because a lot of what you’re seeing as attacks

[00:22:08] Dr. Robert Davis: on me, quite

[00:22:09] Alex Tsakiris: frankly are attacks on science.

Oh, you are

[00:22:12] Clip: the embodiment of science. Are you? What a scientific thing to say that an entire dogma could be embodied in an individual

[00:22:19] Alex Tsakiris: okay. That was a very excellent, , Russell brand , we could also go to mainstream media at this point, which has the, the science is so overwhelmingly turned against what they perpetrated with the jab thing and how the science was completely, , the other way and they turned their back on it.

, so I’m gonna return to Gary Nolan. I can’t let him off the hook for, for what he says about Fauci. I think that reveals more than just about anything else we can hear him say about his background, about Stanford, about his grants, about his C I A work. He’s carrying the water for somebody else, because no one in their right mind would, would say that at this point about fauci.

To me, it kind of reveals it all.

[00:23:03] Dr. Robert Davis: Well, I, I, yeah, I don’t know if there’s a cause effect there. I, that may be one way to interpret what he said, but, . , another way, the way I would interpret it, . , would be that he’s, he’s looking at fauci s past achievements. I do know a well-respected virologist, . , . , who, uh, actually patented, . , the rotovirus.

. , and, and I asked him, . , during Covid what, what he thought about fauci. And all he said was, the man is absolutely brilliant. His contributions to the field of virology are, are unquestioned. That’s why he holds the position. So I think the point statement I think was related to that, and I wanna be on your good side, more political and, and in recognition of his great past and ignoring his covid contribution, which in retrospect could, could be, and I’m not one to interpret, it could be a disaster.

. , you know, it could be. You know, but it’s more of an emotional disaster. Dis causes left on society are, are unimaginable. That’s, you know, that’s where I focus. So we yet to even realize that I think, .. , what it’s done to, to people all over the world.

[00:24:08] Alex Tsakiris: . Did you read RFK Jr’s book on Fauci? Are you aware of it? No. No. Okay. So it’s kind of the definitive work on his history and his, his history is the opposite of what you just said. If you carefully go through it. He’s mixed in with the whole, . , AIDS H I V thing in a very unscrupulous way, . . Very, very despicable career . , in medicine, in my opinion. And the, in the opinion of many people who’ve read that book, which by the way was the number one book on Amazon for the longest time and got zero reviews. I look at it, got zero reviews in any mainstream publication, so there’s no, . , New York Times Wall Street.

They completely ignored it. Just like they’re trying to ignore him now as he’s running for President. Point being, there’s 150 pages of notes, you know, footnotes in that book to the research that Fauci did, which contradicts what your friend, who’s just probably going with the mainstream narrative unforgivable, I think for a serious academic in virology to be tremendously grateful for his contributions without looking at him as.

Potentially someone who’s just run the largest scientific scam in history, which at this point, there’s no other way. The burden of proof would be on someone to say that the emmic was something other than the largest medical scam in history. The burden of proof suggested it is. So I’m open to the possibility that it isn’t, but man, you’re gonna have to convince me, and if you can’t, then what does that say about Gary Nolan?

That’s why I keep coming back to this, because what does this say about how we’re supposed to understand one aspect of the spiritually transformative experiences, and that is the et. If Gary Nolan is the guy who’s partially responsible for controlling the narrative, then he’s controlling your narrative as well in a way that maybe you haven’t fully considered.

[00:26:15] Dr. Robert Davis: Well, you’re, you’re, you’re exactly right. He, he’s a focal point of public. Attention as well as attention by many in academia. . , so of course he, he can persuade, . , he consults with the cia. He consults supposedly according what he says with all people’s in the know. As far as U aps are concerned, he does, . , meta material analysis.

He is an admitted experiencer. . , people identify certainly with that. Who else within the community other than, . , those who just. Don’t focus on him. And there’re probably most people in society and, and just go if they’re interested in ufology on, on what, uh, the dod, nasa, et cetera are, are all doing about it, as well as the Galileo project, which Nolan is also involved in.

And I credit Abby Loeb, you know, in the same breath as, as to commend them in, in one sense. I don’t know if that has anything else up their sleeve. . , but they’re like a John Mack in a sense that they’re, they’re risking their reputation, their status in some ways, . , and

, . , they’re pushing the envelope and you need one white crow in a sense says, or a scientist who does make that.

Incredible discovery maybe, or, or it comes out of citizen science, uh, you know, in terms of the public generating research, . , on their own with limited funds to try to unravel this chess game that we all seem to be playing. ,

[00:27:37] Alex Tsakiris: I think you’re a hell of a lot closer to unraveling it . , than these guys are. That’s my point. I think these guys, Avi Loeb, if you listen carefully to what he’s saying, . , he doesn’t believe in et.

I mean, he, not only does he not believe in et, he doesn’t believe in U F O. Right. So when, when you fully process that, that’s back to what I was saying, like with your stuff, with the spiritually transformative experiences, and then you talk to Sam Harris and he’s like, well, hey, I think consciousness is still an illusion.

You know, and I’m gonna spin this stuff about meditation, but it’s still all brain-based consciousness is an illusion. It’s like, you really don’t have a seat at this table. Like, I don’t know if you’re just making that stuff up or not, but you really don’t have a seat at that table. Avi Loeb, when he says UFOs, Hey, if we ever run across to ’em, they might be real.

It’s like, bro, if we ever run across them, you are somehow, you, you don’t really have a seat at the table. You, on the other hand, my friend, is who I’m . , turning to in this discussion because you definitely got a seat on the table. You are way, way ahead of the curve. . By virtue of this spiritually transformative experiences across the board where you include this U A P U F O experience and quotes like this from that article. . As with any experience that’s filtered through our layers of culture, language, and individuality, STEs, that his spiritually transformative experiences also share several similarities, themes and features.

Man, we could do a whole hour just on that because it’s so deep. That is not where Gary Nolan is coming from. Gary Nolan is trying to misdirect us away from that. Avi Loeb . . He’s trying to misdirect us by saying, well, none of that stuff could possibly even be on the table because there’s no such thing as consciousness.

Consciousness is an illusion. So, Here’s where I’m gonna take you to

this guy, Ray Hernandez, beyond UFOs, a project to try and wrap our arms around those experiences. And a project that you were directly involved in, you were called to be a part of, because you do have not only the academic credentials, but you have the academic muscle to know how to collect data. Tell us about that project, because I think it relates more to the real story of what’s going on behind Gary Nolan and the rest of these guys than the fake story.

. So tell me, . , what was this project?

[00:30:11] Dr. Robert Davis: . , the Dr. Mitchell’s research Foundation for extraordinary experiences, I’ve, uh, was developed by, uh, and certainly the sixth person walked on the moon. Founder of the Institute . Of . , no Sciences. . , great. . , Dr. Ed Mitchell. . , over time, . , Ray Hernandez and a few of others developed the, the study and I came on board about a year or two, . , in progress after I wrote my u f O book.

. , they heard me on some podcasts and, and invited me to, to join and I was thrilled. I was a, . Kidney candy store. I was interested, always interested in UFOs, and I was always interested in research. And I, this is a tremendous opportunity for me to interact with many scientists and, .

And eventually I, I told them, . , I’m gonna get this published. And I did in the Journal of Scientific Exploration, I wrote it up with Ross Calon primarily. Ray Hernandez was also a co-author. And, . , without Rusk, I I, statistical analysis, it wouldn’t have been been accepted, but so referee journal, and I’m proud about it because it does say something quite significant.

Uh, again, it’s not, it’s not accepted by nasa, the DO D arrow, . , because it, it’s not nuts and bolts. We’re talking about spiritual transformative experiences, qualitative subjective experiences, and we did a survey of over 3,200 individuals. Many people are very familiar with that. . , and the results, you know, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m not gonna go into great details about it, but we, there are many limitations, obviously, . , but the fact that some 3,200 people are in it, you know, it kind of weeds out the, the people who you can’t.

To trust or mis misinforming us purposely or, or schizophrenic, for instance, and are making it up for whatever reason. There’s a secondary gain, nevertheless, a large sample size that was controlled as best as possible statistically in terms of validity and right reliability. And again, I thank Russ Scalp pone for that.

We came up with some interesting data, which has been supported by subsequent studies by Kathleen Martin at the, . Experience of research team at Muon and a few others. But what we found was that the, the majority, again, approximately 80, 85% regarded as a positive interaction. The more times I interacted with the U A P.

. either physical or non-physical, either as an abductee or a contactee, they regarded it as a positive experience, especially if those interactions were more frequent in nature. And we saw an increase in positivity, which again, was statistically derived in terms of four specific criteria that were weighted most heavily in terms of positivity criteria.

So again, it was, was finally tuned analytically. . , and using that criteria, we, we saw an increase in positivity with increases in interactions, whatever that meant to them. Entering another matrix, an alternate real and non earthly environment. Or a, a spacecraft lying on a table, being subjected to experimental paradigms.

. , be given a hybrid. We know the whole story. The point is, . , initially of course, it’s, uh, horrific. Let’s not, let’s not discount that too. , hold

[00:33:19] Alex Tsakiris: on before you go horrific, because I wanna go horrific too. . , but I, I wanna pause. Sure. And, and let people know why I was kind of trying to rally you up a little bit is because of this, like, . , you got the goods here, Bob.

You’ve gone and done the fricking work and like the last time you were on and I tried to push you on some of the data, and you push right back and say, no, I know how to do this kind of research. I know how to scientifically collect data in a scientific survey and analyze it statistically and get it published in a peer reviewed journal.

And that still means something, man. It does, if it’s done correctly and their peers are really looking at it and that. Lends tremendous credibility to what you are saying when I pull up that edge article and spiritually transformative experiences. Now, people know what I mean. Bob knows what he’s talking about with this particular . , spiritually transformative experience, which was the ET encounter.

And how do we know that’s a spiritually transformative experience? Because we ask people and they say, . I had this experience that no spiritually transformative that makes you more of an authority. On how these spiritually transformative experiences work across the board.

Across the board being NDEs, OBEs, like we’re saying stress men and you just take D M T kind of thing. That conversation, they are trying to pull us miles away from that conversation. Gary Nolan, I would suggest just like Lou Elizondo before him, who was carrying the, you know, go watch the videos on Lou Elizondo from a year ago.

He’s off the stage right now cuz he somehow discredited himself. But his thing was like, man, it’s about protecting our airspace. And, you know, hey, if it’s up there and it’s a threat and this and that, so he had a message, he delivered that good. Before that it was Tom DeLonge. You know, Hey man, you know, I’m, I’m the cool generation Blick 180 2.

Here’s my message carrying the water. I would suggest that that’s the only way to view, uh, Gary Nolan and Avi Loeb is they’re just carrying the water with another message. You, my friend, are not, you are at the next level of trying to put this together. And the first step is to say there is an experience associated with this.

And as you have written about and researched about so fantastically, it is the most profound experience we can imagine. It is a spiritually transformative experience. If we look at cultures, if we look at time, these are the things we value most are these experiences that scientists would say are spiritually transformative.

Now you’re saying that is at the core of all this stuff that these guys are talking about. Do you, do you get where I’m going? Do you get why I’m kind of poking you a little bit on that?

[00:36:15] Dr. Robert Davis: Yeah, there’s no question. And thank you for your kind words. . , as an authority, you know, I may be familiar a little bit with the, with the literature, trying to put the pieces together.

. You don’t know whether or not you should include as, as objective evidence, as that’s not biased, of course. . , what’s the value validity of the information that you hear in ufology G and beyond?

And that’s why . , . , and you allude to it beautifully, the the data that’s qualitative in nature that we generated in survey designs, . , it lacks . , . In terms of what hardcore materialists regard as, as reflections of the ultimate truth.

. , despite the fact that, that people who, who undergo these things are transformed in, in so dramatic ways . . , how do you explain the fact that atheists now believe in, . Supreme beings after having these spiritual, transformative experiences or dramatically change . , their opinions on, on major aspects of philosophical and personal life, .

To me, you know, at least it can be argued Metaly philosophically, which I’m not. But you can regard that as being the ultimate reality truth if it, if it makes one more ecologically sensitive, and that’s maybe a big issue. Uh, one of the pieces that I think. You are aware of and, and, and certainly many others are, when people have these kind of experiences, it seems like of course they’re not the center of the universe anymore.

. , they become like a particle of the wave. If you wanna go into that wave particle duality thing, I mean, if you really go in that direction and, and also, . , make the analogy between the subjective experience and, and true reality because the unit of experience that underlies the, the spiritual transformative experience, that unity where I feel interrelated with, with the world reality, the environment like I never have before, and it feels beautiful, normal, natural, peaceful, loving, all that glittering gold new age stuff, but it’s, but it’s there.

[00:38:14] Alex Tsakiris: . let me interject something here, Bob.

Sure. Because I think you’re doing it in more of a way . , than you might even realize. . The thing I always point out is, so the survey you guys do at free and you publish. Is about experience in a way that we generally accept in science, right? So if someone is experienced depression, we accept that they are experiencing depression.

If someone is experiencing grief, we accept that they are experiencing grief. We don’t double clutch on that. We don’t say, . , what is the physics? You know, how does it relate down to quantum physics kind of thing. . and we don’t just stop there. We say we can measure that .

That’s what you’re bringing to it. It’s not like you’re off in . Your own kind of thing. Oh, it’s all anecdotal. . You are applying rather well understood scientific principles to experience, and you’re just applying ’em in an area that no one ever wanted to apply it to because it was the third rail, and you’re gonna get electrocuted on your career.

[00:39:15] Dr. Robert Davis: . , you’re exactly right. With respect to how we rely on surveys, . , in order to inform our medical community how severe the pain is, how severe the depression is, you’re exactly right. And often, often tailored appropriate doses of a specific drug to, to, uh, minimize the severity of that particular symptom.

Largely survey based, largely anecdotal. How, how else can a psychologist, psychiatrist, medical physician get an understanding of your physical condition that, to understand how you express it yet? Yet, you’re exactly right. Yet when, when you see survey results as it relates to the free survey or other surveys, and that’s all they are in, . Spiritual transformative, experience related, uh, research, all, all surveys except for the D M T, which is survey in terms of understanding the semantic thematic content of the individual’s experience under the DMT or, or psilocybin, but also correlating that with some underlying e E G neurophysiological patterns, whatever that may mean, not.

And that’s not an answer other than there’s major changes going on. There’s no question about it. You know, is, is it DMT in the pigram? We can only, we could only throw these things out and, and suspect . . ,

[00:40:33] Alex Tsakiris: lemme just recap what you’re saying.

Yeah. Cause it’s important is so we go look at Strassman and Spirit Molecule and we repeat it and we mix in the D M T component, I would say almost as a way . Of apologizing for the fact that what all that research is really about is the qualitative, the anecdotal. That’s what it’s all about.

Because . , if you go look at the Ayahuasca experience, right, and you go down to, Hey, I was down in Peru and same thing, I’m taking SREs men’s work, and they had the D M T and down there they gave the D M T, and then one person goes, well, you know, as a matter of fact, I didn’t drink.

They just came along and they just moved the feather and I had the same experience. And now you go, whoa. . , the stress man has to push the materialistic, and I’m not saying he’s pushing it, but the way that gets interpreted is it’s about the D M T versus if we look more broadly at your work, I think your work points us to, what’s really going on is there’s something called a spiritually transformative experience.

And we’re not exactly sure . What the correlation is between that and this biological robot part of us.

[00:41:45] Dr. Robert Davis: . and that’s the heart of the current debate. . there’s no way to get an objective measure one, having an n d e. . , it’s impossible, . , . , because it’s spontaneous in nature, . Except the one.

In which you can control here. Here’s some psilocybin . , DMT at an appropriate dose. . , and you get some incredible things happening. . , the value of psychedelics is, is significant in terms of those who can play around with it and try to make sense of something that changes their personality.

And at the same time, you can get some hard data. So it pleases the, . Materialists. And, and they go in that direction in terms of an explanation. And the question is, , do you interpret hallucinations as real events? You know, they don’t, they, they regard these reports as hallucinatory nature and not evidence of an alternate reality, whereas another person would, would look at it , in the reverse.

, so, , how do you relate to this objective experience of these transpersonal events and we know the statistics, just to remind some people, 70%, for instance, of people who have a near death experience. You know, Alex have a divorce within seven years. It’s remarkable. . much higher than expected. But we see this with STEs. We need more data.

We’re scratching the surface, not only how it affects the person involved, the experiencer, but the family members, first, second, third person. . , and that’s where we need to go. The se thematic, the semantic content of what the meaning, meaning was of that event. Look for these com comparisons and, and it’s gonna take a long time before science adopts this as a true, valid reflection of reality.

[00:43:28] Alex Tsakiris: . . You are in the middle of creating this documentary, which you think is going to move the ball forward a little bit in terms of the issues that you were just talking about in terms of consciousness.

It’s called the Consciousness Connection. Lemme play a little bit of just the end of the trailer and then we’ll talk about it. Will we break through

[00:43:46] Dr. Robert Davis: the stigma of the science

[00:43:48] Alex Tsakiris: of the extraordinary and challenge the true nature of reality

[00:43:54] Dr. Robert Davis: in the consciousness

[00:43:55] Alex Tsakiris: connection?

. This is, we’re putting your energy and it’s where we should be putting our passion and our energy and the meta materials and the anti gravitational stuff. I’m not saying that’s not a path, but in terms of a more direct path, we have to go with the experience.

. , it is the closest thing we have to potentially finding out the meaning of this. It’s the experience and that’s where you are.

[00:44:26] Dr. Robert Davis: . It is a passion is and energy, my experiences I mentioned earlier, certainly fueled that gave me the determination, that little hint that there likely is something more. My experiences told me something that beyond belief, never thought I . , could experience. What I did, , so I’m trying to make sense of it. . , but I’m making the documentary because I’m trying to find the pieces . , in key researchers, . , who look at, . , human to human interaction on an invisible pathway or existential per perception, human to physical system interaction, psychokinesis a near-death experiences.

Certainly we’re gonna be filming at the International Association for near-Death studies. We went to Monroe Institute, on and on ions, . , and yes, Gary Nolan, let’s, you know, let’s bring that into U F O. Not, not everything. You’re very selective what he’s doing. You have a top knock academic addition like many others, Dean Raden, . , Evan Alexander, . . And unfortunately as a producer, you know, I’m out there saying we need funding for travel primarily to, to get from here to there to, to make these kinds of interviews. But more than that, Alex, and you mentioned it, the experiencer, we do have experiences near the people who’ve had many of these.

And that’s the value of the film,

[00:45:42] Alex Tsakiris: okay Bob, so last question then. . What concerns do you have about the signal to noise ratio . , if one does take, as you are talking about the big tent approach, which I think is awesome, . , talk to a lot of different people. But tying it back to the misinformation, disinformation, how do you balance that,

[00:46:02] Dr. Robert Davis: oh. Very, very careful. I will do my very best to make sure that that’s not the case, because the intent, and I can’t be perfect. Certainly we’re all, we all human and make those errors of inductive reasoning. . , deception abounds and it certainly exists . , in all media forms, and I can , held hostage to that.

So I, I and Dave be, and Wilson Hawthorne, that my co-producers, uh, we talked about that and, . That’s why we don’t want to in include UFOs., and we debated that and, . , you know, getting Gary Nolan on, on board is, is wonderful, but let’s focus . , on other stuff. I don’t wanna really go there. I don’t want to go there. We talked about Chris Bledso, let’s get some orbs, you know, and all that jazz. He’s doing another documentary and you can’t, and he doesn’t even address that.

You can’t get, you can’t do it before. He got the documentary. Come on, come on up, spend the night, you know, take all the videos you on. I wa he’s wonderful. I have great, great respect for him. Uh, CIA’s involved. Um, uh, John Alexander I know, spoke with him and he’s been up there and, and he believes, and I made me admissions before that, that Chris Bledso is the one responsible.

He’s the one that calls down these orgs. Well, that’s his interpretation, but the CIA is always a cia, retired or not. And they, uh, will gather information among the citizenry and, uh, they’ll see what they’re up to. And that’s probably the best source of information they can get. Uh, that’s what, that’s their discipline when they do it very well.

Even, um, even getting up front and close, establishing personal relationships with people who are experiences to try to extract information, . , . , and deceiving them. Receiving them, um, to do so, gaining their trust, but also taking their brain, you know, call ’em brain hacking, whatever you want. But there’s an ulterior motive.

. , they’re not mean and vicious, but they’re deceptive. You know, they’re deceptive people. They could be being vicious too, but I was just gonna say, I was just gonna say, but that’s unethical. It’s unethical, you know, to be that way with another human being as far as I’m concerned. You know, mission aside, they’re, and they admittedly tell people are encounter intelligence.

They

[00:48:10] Dr. Robert Davis: admit that. .

[00:48:11] Alex Tsakiris: . , so I, I said last question, but actually I’m gonna stretch it out with one more question because like, look at, at a deep level, if one reads your books, One understands that you have this deeper spiritual connection yourself. . The signal to noise ratio isn’t lost on Dr.

Robert Davis. I’m not sure that we can extend that courtesy . , to some of these other folks. And in particular, you know, the little thing you just did on the cia, it’s like, . , I guess I’d wrap this into the question of, you know, what do you think about my lab?

Because one of the holes in the free survey that you did with Ray Hernandez is, Hey man, these things are 80% positive. Well, number one, we can’t be absolutely sure that. Deception on that other side in terms of screen memory and all this other stuff, which we acknowledge isn’t somehow contaminating that in a way that we of just effectively cannot measure because the technology on the other side, on the non-human intelligence is sufficient to disguise it from us.

So I just throw that out there and if you wanna respond to that, that’s kind of one thing. But the other thing is then we go to the other 20%, which are negative. And it is clear to me at this point that the military abduction thing is 1000% in play. And the reason I’d say 1000% is cuz Gary Nolan said a hundred percent, we gotta beat him.

But the other thing is if you just look at the data, like look at Ren Shim Forest. I was just looking at that again, because there’s a new book out. That’s more research, more interviews with the participants, with the observers, the military guys who were there. That’s 1980. You know what they do to those guys who observe it, who see the trees being knocked down.

See the trace elements on the of the craft? See the, the craft fly over the nuclear missiles and target. What do they do with those guys? They round their ass up. They bring them back to the base. They lock ’em down. They bring in the men in black, kind of, not literally, but they bring in the heavy hitters.

They illegally induce them with sodium pentothal. They subject them to just the worst kind of tortured interrogation. They threaten them that you will be killed, your family will be killed if you ever tell anyone about this. And this is not just unique to the Reynolds Fromm Forest case. This is, we hear this all the time.

the connection that I haven’t heard a lot of people make is that’s my lab. That’s at least the beginnings of my lab because it’s saying the military understands the abduction process enough to say, we gotta figure it out. We gotta know what those guys know. And if that is your 20%, what you guys found on free, I’m not sure.

That’s not the big story, rather than the 80% think it’s

[00:51:12] Dr. Robert Davis: positive. It’s a, it’s an interesting take. You can’t discount that as a possibility. And I thought, I thought of that. How do you exclude, um, my labs and I, . My labs has happened? Yes. Question is, does it still happens? I don’t know if abductions happens, like sauces aren’t seen and we don’t have trace elements anymore, you know, you know, things change over time.

Why does that mean, . , motivations have changed, objectives have changed decisions, . , in some un acknowledged access program has changed or modified to conform for whatever reason, to, . , comply with changing events. . , I don’t know. Could that 20% be, . The myelitis, be be whisked away and sub subject sodium penal and scream memory.

Yeah. It happens. I know somebody, . , who it happen to, . . And that’s the basis for my books. Here’s the facts. Go figure it out. I’ll throw in a little 2 cents of my bias. Yes. But I’m trying to orchestrate it. . , and, and here’s that section of, of mu instruments, that section, that section.

But let’s bring it together and, and make music as best as possible. . And that’s the basis of what I’m trying to do. And whatever that means to people, if they can support. In whatever way, and I hate to keep bringing it up.

Visit our website@atconsciousnessfilm.info. . , we have a GoFundMe page, and thank you for the opportunity for, for mentioning this and for the time in which to do so. So, . , to help you travel, we’re not expecting to make money on this. This is a, uh, would Dave and Wilson tell me is a passion project.

They’re, they’re artists. As, as producers, cinematographers, they make money. Great. You know, I’m retired and, and, you know, 10, 20 years at best. And that’s, and I’m okay. The point is, it’s a message. It’s not ego. Maybe a little bit that I, so the human, yes. So there’s a little bit of ego, admittedly, but more importantly, what can I, what can I bring to the table?

Leave a legacy of. And maybe resonate with some people that, that benefit in some way. .

[00:53:12] Alex Tsakiris: Well, it’s excellent, Bob.

I always really, really enjoy the perspective you bring to this and the work, you know, you put in the work. So thanks again. I’m sure we’ll do it again when that, when that movie gets out.

[00:53:24] Dr. Robert Davis: Thank you so much. It’s always a pleasure speaking with you. Alex .

[00:53:27] Alex Tsakiris: Thanks again to Dr. Robert Davis for joining me today on Skeptiko.

, one question it up from this interview is what are spiritual? What are spiritually transformative experiences telling us about encounters with E T. Or you could ask that in reverse and kind of get an interesting question as well.

Either way, take a stab at it and let me know what you think love to hear from you until next time. Take care. Bye for now.

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