Nelson Apostata, Extended Consciousness, ET, NDE |553|


Nelson Apostata was an ancient history scholar before becoming interested in ETs and NDEs.



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[00:00:00] Alex Tsakiris: Um, This episode of skeptical. A show about love and the extended consciousness realm.

[00:00:10] Nelson Apostata: We can’t directly establish causation, right? If you look at what Richard Dolan was describing of the tall greys and the reported experiences of these people are overwhelming love, and you compare this to.

The near-death experience reports of this overwhelming love. And then you look at, for instance, the new Testament and it’s all about love. Love is all that matters. We also look at the counterculture in the sixties, 1960s with the Beatles. All you need is love.

And I just started to get a little bit suspicious of this. Why is it always just love? Why is it only about that? And not about for instance, material accomplishments in this world? Why is it always just life?

[00:00:54] Alex Tsakiris: And why we might not want to go all fan boy on the love thing.

[00:01:01] Clip: Hey, remember when you were in the, the Beatles and, uh, you did that, um, album Abbey road and, uh, , the song, it goes, uh, and in the end, the law you take is equal to the love you make you remember that.

Is that true?

that’s Christen in my experience, it is. I find the more you give, the more you get .

[00:01:40] Alex Tsakiris: I have an interview coming up in a minute with Nelson insert pseudo name there. Who did just a fantastic interview with me a couple months ago. I have no idea why I sat on this as long as I did. It’s actually so good that I’ve broken it up into two parts because we talk about. So many things.

And we talk about this other subject world. I kind of hint at, at the end, but it’s so different, that I wanted to break it into a separate episode.

But anyway, all this other great stuff is coming up now in my interview with Nelson, we rolled right into this. So I will say.

Welcome to skeptical where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I’m your host, Alex. and today we welcome a guy who just amazing to me that Nelson found. The show and then found me through the forum. I feel so grateful to have connected with him. He’s so smart and has brought so many brilliant.

New fresh ideas to the table, this kind of level three discussion. Is exactly what I love to do in these shows. So he doesn’t have a website. It doesn’t have a book yet. He’s just a really, really smart guy. And I hope you enjoy this dialogue with him.


[00:03:00] Nelson Apostata: Is that a lot with you then? Just if we cause I’ve, I’ve written notes, just the bad, the highlights of this and you remember our discussions way back. Cause you know, I know she was doing the, the website for you, the Facebook site and that you should videos. Yeah. I mean,

[00:03:16] Alex Tsakiris: so we go way back, we go way back my man.

So you know, we, we ought to start with I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s enough of a reason to chat out. What, what really just totally blew my mind is when you sent the latest thing about the slave mentality and the Romans, cause it just brings true and there’s a lot of subtle things to unravel there.

You know, w w we ought to start with kind of who you are and your background. And then I think, I just don’t know where to go on the Bledsoe thing. We’ll just do it. And then if it’s okay with you, I might not go forward with that just because all the reasons I told you, but I’d love to have that chat with you.

So Nelson you’re here. Tell, tell, tell me a little bit about, I really don’t know or can’t remember much about your background. Tell me, yeah.

[00:04:08] Nelson Apostata: So it’s I’m a classical scholar, so ancient, Greece and Rome. And was a researcher and tutor in different universities in New Zealand with us. And it was a really, just an amazing time just to be with old school professors who really respected just the ancient history and the cultures and the ancient religions.

But then I noticed that the new blood within the system, these new professors, there were more and more ideological and they were labeling. For instance, the ancient religions has just superstition not to be taken seriously. And the entire state of the art, for instance, I was a paid researcher in ancient Greek bars paintings.

And I just noticed that this was all being corrupted. And I just really wanted to just focus on the ancient world and just to immerse myself into this way of thinking in this material culture. And so my professors, but since they said that I could go on to be a pro to that the ceiling was limitless from for me, but I just decided with a heavy heart that I just couldn’t carry on with the way the academy had basically been Subverted by ideologues who were more interested in pushing them to the vendor than the actual engine

[00:05:39] Alex Tsakiris: past.

Can I interject a question? Cause I think this is like a super important point that I keep running into again and again, I don’t have the answer to it. To what extent do you think there has been this sea change that you’re talking about? Because I’m sure you could go find old timers there that you could kind of, maybe you did that you could pull aside and go, Hey kid, actually, it’s always been like that and here are the political games that I had to play and you know, all the rest of that stuff.

And maybe it varies from department to department. Maybe it varies from administration to administration. I don’t know. I have kind of an intuitive sense from just what I’ve done here, that there really is a change, but I don’t want to, I want to fight that too. And I really want to challenge that. Do you know what I mean?

Do you want to explore the whole, you know what, because I’m sure you have, you probably questioned that too, don’t you?

[00:06:39] Nelson Apostata: Oh, absolutely. And tracing it back to the fight for, to school for instance, way back in the early 20th century. But it even goes further back than that, that there are these machinations for them to come less and less about actual searching for, not for knowledge about history, for instance, in my case, And more just to to instill an ideology, just a few points that they just keep on hammering into the students’ minds, just the whole frame of the oppressive versus the oppressed narrative as you know, and cultural Marxism.


[00:07:18] Alex Tsakiris: so is it, is it new, is it same game, different, same playbook, different play, you know, where now it’s a different agenda being pushed board or is there really something new in terms of the consolidation of control and power? Do you feel like you had the ability to go to another institution and have it be different?

Or what are your, what are your more, your broader thoughts about that? Because you know what I mean, Nelson, I mean, we, we kind of get locked in and I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to get locked into just kind of, you know, the diatribe, oh my God, we’re oppressed. And this is the way it is. If that’s the way it is.

I want to talk about it, but I want to make sure we’re kind of exploring the whole part of it.

[00:08:03] Nelson Apostata: No, absolutely. I can understand that. And I think that people are like these more nuanced processes of history, of the development of things and just like a simple causation and a point where they can just mark that’s where it began.

Right. And then I think it is what you said. It’s Cumulus. And that more and more of these faculties have just been taken over by the by these ideologues basically. And the people who are genuinely searching after knowledge of the ancient past, that they slowly became an often unwittingly just pushed out.

And even if they were brilliant researchers and teachers that they just ended up retiring and then the new people who are coming in, we’re just taking it over. And once you get the elite capture of a certain faculty and they start consciously putting in their fellow ideologues into the positions of authority, there was very quick that the entire faculty just gets taken over and tenure for instances and illusion.

I’ve heard so many stories of for instance, an entire faculty just being just being fired basically. So everyone was let live and then they rehired only the ones that they wanted. And so that was, that was a run around the institution of tenure.

[00:09:28] Alex Tsakiris: the other thing I’ve heard about tenure is the other game that they play is they’re just changing the rules going forward. You know, cause I’ve heard from people that have come on the show, say I have tenure, but I’m a dying breed, you know, they’re just, and, and to your point, when they hire people, they just hire them.

And that’s part of their employment agreement. Is it non tenure track, you know, or they’ll, they’ll eliminate it. So they have a lot of little things, but if you think about it, tenure doesn’t really serve the system that they, it, you know, w would you want tenure, if you were running a department, would you really want tenure?

If you are running a university, would you really want tenure? And I think it kinda, to me, it also relates to this whole thing about capitalism. And of course, capitalism run a muck is a disaster. And that’s why we have these rules, but it’s almost like the reverse of that. Yeah. If I was running, if I was running a business, I bought no restrictions, no controls.

And the same thing. If I was running a university, I wouldn’t want tenure because that is, that is reduces my ability to control. And it’s funny how people see this kind of left. Right? They don’t see the shades of it’s just. People want total power to do what they want, whether they’re in business or whether they’re in academia.

And our job is to put those controls and tenure was designed to be a control. You, you probably should speak to that more because you, that was your, that was your, your life there for awhile. Speak to the whole tenure thing.

[00:11:06] Nelson Apostata: I, when I began, I just had this naive view that I could get into the academy, become a well-known researcher just through the competency that I brought to it.

But then I just realized more and more that they just talking to professors that they weren’t most of them that I encountered in different faculties, that they were really only interested in basically just getting published. That was the main thing for them actually. So it was just this, the selfish the selfish aim to just get published with parents, right.

You just have to keep publishing. And many of them were publishing dozens and dozens of articles, but the readership on these is almost zero. So you can even statistically see this, that how often an article is cited. Of course. And I think the average in the humanities is only one one citation.

[00:12:03] Alex Tsakiris: I, you know, one of the conversations I had a while ago, I don’t know if you remember, it was a Virginia tech professor named Dr. Henry Bauer and he’s an older guy and he’s been around and he’s really kind of seen a lot of things and he’s kind of gotten interested in the HIV aids thing. And that was one of the things that I don’t want to go too far into that, but very good science.

And he also got an interested in just people who’s in academia whose ideas were being suppressed, but what he pointed out from a big picture standpoint that I thought was really interesting and plays into what you’re saying. He said, if you look at it from an economic model in the fifties, there was this huge increase in funding for all sorts of academic endeavors, whether it’s in the humanities or the sciences or whatever there was money, it just, and then, and then there was a move in the seventies to.

Reign that in. And when you reduce the pool, well, the fish that were in there and we’re kind of swimming and getting along, cause there is plenty of food started having to attack each other. And that’s what I think that competitive environment was utilized by maybe. And I’ll get your opinion on this became a tool and a vehicle for people who wanted to control the situation, control the message, whether it was a corporate entity trying to advance its drug or whether it was someone who is trying to advance a certain idea.

They saw an opportunity that, wow, now I have these guys jumping through all sorts of hoops for relatively nothing in terms of what I can give in terms of a grant or a citation or all the rest of that. What do you think about Bauer’s analysis of that from an economic model?

[00:13:58] Nelson Apostata: Well, I didn’t actually see that into you.

I’ve seen most of your interviews, but it just, there’s a fascinating point what you brought up because I just remembered straightaway. As you said, that Clifford gets, he’s a cultural anthropologist and very influential and he was maybe the most cited of any anthropologist in the last decades. He said explicitly that he got into the academy when it opened up during that time that you were mentioning that there was an explosion.

Of positions in the university system and that he got in at the right time during the way. And I, and he was really influential with just changing anthropology from something that you could empirically and sort of objectively analyze that you could really have discussions about measurable facts.

So something that is post-modern that you just it’s just an opinion. And the meaning of words are just completely turned around and twisted. And so you can’t really even have a discussion about facts anymore and anthropology and cultural anthropology, at least. And this just reminds me that I’m looking at it from a conspiratorial angle, that if you want to take over a faculty at a university, you would open up the number of positions, get your people in or on your side.

And then once they’re in, like, let’s say, you’ve got half of the faculty who are more just old school who are just interested in the material, you open it up so that there are twice as many people, but you’re hiring the ones that you want. And then you constructed again, like a funnel constructing more and more, and that’s what’s happening.

[00:15:51] Alex Tsakiris: That’s quite brilliant. I hadn’t heard of that before, but doesn’t that make a lot of sense? That’s that’s really quite interesting. So, so Nelson, what, what should we, there’s so many interesting things we could talk about again, we’ve had this wonderful, wonderful relationship. It’s so cool to talk to you for the first time, but I can’t, I say this all the time, but you know, I feel connected to you just through the emails and the forum and over the years and this connection we have through the show and it’s, it is great to talk to you, but it doesn’t feel even like it’s the first time talking to you, even though it is, but in the recently we’ve had an email exchange that has really, I don’t know, just taking blown my mind, as I said earlier.

And there’s a couple of different parts of that that we would might want to talk about. Where, where do you think we might start? What’s on, what’s on your agenda.

[00:16:46] Nelson Apostata: Okay. First off, I have to give credit to Marty Gaza, who is an expert on the field of UFO. And he did this amazing series on brothers of the certain podcast with whom you’ve had interviews before.

And he did a series on UFO’s. And I believe if I’m remembering correctly, that Marty was actually a consultant at Fox news for one of their shows on UFO’s, that he was the expert that they had, where people would call it. About their sightings and Marty would then analyze the likelihood that that actually was a UFO, not just some natural phenomenon or some sort of aircraft.

And so if anyone wants to see this, then in more detail than the S series with Marty on brothers of the certain podcasts. So just to say that, and this really just the series blew my mind and he comes from this studied looking at UFO. Whereas I come from the perspective of academically studying and teaching mythology, ancient religions, and just the way that people thought that in the ancient world.

And so the two of us, we were talking on the brothers of the certain discourse forum, Martina, and we did have some disagreements with details, but just overall, it was amazing how much there is this continuum between the phenomena in the ancient world of miss talking of these beings, which are far more powerful than humans who shapeshift, who capricious who behave unpredictably, that they can implant thoughts into people’s minds.

Abducted people at will and who can breed with people. And then if we look at that as a general phenomenon, just looking at that as a, as a pattern, just as a, as a Metro analysis, we go then through folklore. And speaking of exactly the same thing, one of the greatest focal researchers said that that’s the main theme and the folklore is basically hybridization between these entities and humans.

And then we go into the witch trials and the middle ages and coming into the early modern period where they’re talking about the same things. This is a central theme, for instance, the malleus smell of the car, which is the main text of the witch trials is the interbreeding between humans and these demons as they call them that they’re basically these these paranormal entities.

And then if we go further into euphology going wave it as well before Roswell and everything, but we’re getting into, into this as well. There are these beings who are coming down from the sky, or somehow appearing from the earth. They seem extremely telepathic. They can shapeshift seemingly well, the Luma.

And they can basically abduct people and breed with them. And they’re obsessed with bloodlines and they’re creating this progeny, which is a hybridization of human. And what I will call on this interview, just UFO being just as in quotation marks, because it’s very difficult to define what these entities are, whether they’re gods or some sort of consciousness or some sort of material, purely material being, if we want to call it

[00:20:35] Alex Tsakiris: We’re going to interweave this discussion back to the first part of the controlled message.

And we’re talking about the controlled message in academia, which seems to be lying behind that. You know, why are things moving in a certain direction? Why is the theme kind of relativism and what I always point out, why does it go back philosophically to materialism? You are meaningless. You are a biological robot, which is the underlying point, I think, in the humanities.

And they don’t even realize it because they’re not tuned into consciousness, really being the fundamental question in science. So they don’t even notice when someone is steering them in a direction that leads towards affirming this kind of scientific materialism. But I think that’s the game at hand and you’re nodding your head.

So I think we’d agree, but I, I think I now know don’t want to get too far off the trail, but I, I can’t resist throwing this just little sub point on the table is I almost feel like when we keep talking about UFO’s and UAPs, there is a certain kind of conditioning PSYOP thing going on there because I can’t believe the number of people I talked to and say, well, let’s talk about ITI.

Let’s talk about abduction and there’s there. They’re resistant to going. And, and there’s like a pullback and it’s like, well, I don’t know. I don’t know how I feel about that. I believe in UFO’s I believe, but I’m not willing to go there and I’m like, okay, think that through for me and tell me how you’re putting that together, you know, in, in if you’re, if you’re putting that together, you know, specifically in terms of saying, well, I think they’re all drones operated, you know, then.

Okay. But it just seems to me that that what’s been planted into the system is this kind of block. There’s almost mental block that like, I will accept the evidence of the UFO UAP, but I won’t even begin to go there with the ITI because it leads to all the things you’re talking about. It leads to abduction, it leads to genetic manipulation.

It leads to what is our history, how far back does our history go? And of course it leads to the extended consciousness realm. And what role are these beings, entities, whatever, playing in that, in that game, in that extended field. But if I can roll that back, what do you think about that? That’s kind of a crazy idea.

I know, but do you think there’s anything to that Nelson, have you noticed that stop point, that gap, that speed bump that people have mentally between UFO’s and eat.

[00:23:26] Nelson Apostata: But I have, but I actually experienced the UFO myself as I communicated two years ago. And I just assumed that it was a nuts and bolts sort of craft and that it was just simple. And just a very, very briefly described this, this friend of mine from America, we were at a hostel in Australia and he’d taught me that he isn’t sort of a telepathic communication with UFO’s and then in the state where he lives in the U S I think it was New Mexico or Arizona, where the it’s really desert like and clear skies.

He said that above his house every night, there are these UFO’s and that they’re all over the house and that he and his two sort of housemates that they had this telepathic communication with this light. And I asked them how well, to what extent is this connection that you have with them? And he said that he can tell when these lights are in the sky telepathically and that they’re not hostile, but more than that, he, he has no idea.

And so he was saying that this UFO had been following him around the whole world from America to Australia when, when we’re backpacking, just that it was present sometimes. And so one night we’re on the balcony of the whole. And it was the evening. And he just said, I can sense that this UFO is here now, and we’re looking at the sky.

And we saw him on the horizon towards the blue mountains, towards the interior of Australia at the light, which looked like a star and it started moving and it was in a zigzag like this. And it was changing direction at a very sharp angle and not slowing down whatsoever. And at this time I’d only just hurt her very cursorily, just what a UFO supposed to be.

And I just assumed that there would probably be some sort of craft up there, some flying source and maybe that was making this light. And so I was just amazing was telling people in the hostel and one of the people in the hostel there in Sydney and the kitchen of the hostel, he said, no, you should be careful with these lights.

They’re prophesied in the book of revelations. And that they’re from the devil. And he was very adamant about this. And I just got a bit concerned that if you tell people that they have all of these these ideas, these preconceived ideas of what these things are. And for myself, I just believed it was nuts and bolts.

Right. And then I was talking to you years later and on the form they’re skeptical. And that’s just telling this other experience that I had of this. Reincarnation flashback, which I’ll call it in quotation marks. And it was that at the hospital there in Australia and Sydney, it was in the evening. And I was walking from the hospital to the beach about 50 meters where, and I was at the car pipe between the hostel and the beach.

And then suddenly I could feel this energy in my body, this energy flow, and got very strong going up and down from head to toe. And then suddenly I couldn’t move. And I just stood there in the middle of the night and no alcohol or drugs or anything like that. I don’t take drugs running just to make clear.

And so I was just standing there feeling the same energy and couldn’t move a muscle. And then suddenly everything went blindingly, white, electric, white sort of light, and then slowly out of this whiteness. And I could, I couldn’t feel my body anymore. I couldn’t sense time. I saw out of this whiteness, the scene before my eyes of this landscape, which somehow I knew was in the ancient past.

And it was looking down on this river valley, which was outside the valley. But by the river was this template. And on the Portico of the temple was the figure who was dressed in white clothes, had a bald head shaved head. And I was looking down at him and somehow. That this was a previous incarnation of an Egyptian priest.

And then I was watching him as a past life experience. And I don’t know how long I witnessed this fall, but then the scene started to disappear and the whiteness came back, it’s electric light, and then I could sense my body again. And the energy was just flowing up and down, shaking my body and I could slowly start to move again.

And that was my reincarnation experience. And this will become more important as we discussed what this could have actually meant because it’s very existential. And has your view listen as well, notice the similarities between what I just described and near death experiences as well, but I told you about this reincarnation flashback on the forum, and then you use it.

And then you said to me that there’s research that UFO experiences and near death experiences are often within a short period of each other. And that, that just blew my mind when I heard that, because I thought straight away of this reincarnation flashback and how similar this is to a near death experience.

And that this flashback was within a few days of seeing the UFO that the hostel.

After this friend of mine had left Australia back to America, I was looking at the sky every evening. And, but then two days I think it was of him leaving. I saw this this star like light in the sky doing this again, this time on the other horizon, towards the Pacific. And it was on the highest and moving in that characteristic shape.

And then it suddenly just went down and I don’t know if it went over the horizon or into the sea, but yeah, that was what happened basically. And the reincarnation flashback was within this week to 10 long, a 10 day long period. So it’s extremely unlikely that that was a coincidence. I feel,

[00:29:50] Alex Tsakiris: yeah, there does seem to be something to the opening up to this extended realm.

And I’m always hesitant to go too far there because fundamentally we don’t understand consciousness and that’s been my that’s what my gig, my soap box for 10 years is until we can admit, okay, we don’t understand it. We don’t really know how to process a lot of this stuff. And I, I just continue to continue to go there.

I mean, the fundamental question is, is consciousness fundament. Because if consciousness is fundamental and all is emerging out of consciousness, well, then it’s a different game. And, and that is the essentially when we go to the spiritual, that’s what the spiritual wisdom traditions, especially the ones that I’m then most tuned into the yoga ones.

I mean, that’s what they’ve always said is that it’s all an illusion, it’s all Maya. So it’s all a play. And third does seem to be a certain truth to that, but that would, that would cause us to look at all of this stuff differently, all of this completely differently, you know, and I think we don’t really want to go there right away.

At least we want to sit here and try and figure it out. But I always want to kind of bracket the discussion of figuring it out with this idea that at some fundamental level, we don’t really understand. We don’t understand what past life memories are. And I think like if I just throw my 2 cents in one of the misunderstandings that I think a lot of people leap to is if you, if you listen to Jim Tucker from the university of Virginia and you watch the cases that he’s reviewed, or you read about the cases and you read the peer reviewed journals and you look at the science behind it, you know, the correlation between.

Violent death and birth marks. I mean, gosh, you can’t get, I mean, that’s, that’s pretty hard to, hard to walk away from. And if you just look at the number of cases they get that are vial, that, that have a reincarnation memory associated with it and have a violent death associated with it compared to the general population.

Well, that jumps out to, as a statistical anomaly. And then of course

[00:32:24] Nelson Apostata: that’s a folk tradition in India as well. I have learned meditation in India and just spend time in the countryside and talk with the people. And this is a folk belief of exactly what you say. So the science and the folk tradition is showing the same thing again.

So it seems very unlikely that that would be consistent. Yeah,

[00:32:45] Alex Tsakiris: that’s great. I’m glad, I’m glad you threw that in there. So

[00:32:49] Nelson Apostata: I just wanted to go back to your question originally about the sire angle. And if there is a site that the UFO phenomenon is just being narrated as nuts and bolts, right. And I believe that there is this just, if you look at the pattern, they just want the simple narrative that is just reductive materialistic, that it’s a threat maybe they can create, but the problem reaction solution, they can create this one world government.

Global threat, therefore, a global solution being a concern on a conspiratory language, but you see even this with with valet, for instance,

[00:33:29] Alex Tsakiris: as the whole, hold on, before we, before we jump into valet, which is a whole other thing I want to comment on what you just said, because when you were telling me about your story, the one thing that flashed to me, which is another crazy angle in when you first started talking, you said, you know, we’re going to have to be willing to go to that next level.

I always call it level three inside baseball, where we may lose some people, but that’s okay. You know, we just,

no, no, no, it’s no problem. We just have to go where it takes us. But Nelson, what I thought about is that when, when you were talking about seeing the UFO in thinking that it’s nuts and bolts, the first thought I would, oh my God, this sounds like so many of the screen memory, things that you hear from UFO, from ETA abductees, right?

You’ll you’ll hear about this. Over and over again, you know, I just interviewed a guy named Ralph Blumenthal who was in New York times reporter, and maybe we’ll come back to him, but he wrote a terrific biography on John Mack. And John Mack was a course, the Harvard professor who got interested in people who had these abduction experiences.

And he said, wow, I’m a, I’m one of the world’s leading psychiatrists. I know when people are making stuff up, these people are not making this stuff up. Part of that experience is this screen memory. You are okay. You have in, it’s often very simple kind of ideas that, that are almost like, you know, nursery school level Ryan’s kind of thing.

But w what, it, it, I just had an instant connection with what you were talking about. There’s nothing to worry about. This has just nuts and bolts machine, you know, it’s like, it’s such as over-simplified exists explanation for what you’re experiencing, that it did pop to mind that it could potentially be a screen memory and that doesn’t preclude it from being all those other things that you’re saying too.

It would just suggest that there may be is some cooperation between whoever is implanting some of those screen memories and your idea, which I think is, is, is my conclusion too, is that, of course you want people to think that it is a nuts and bolts. Of course you want people to think in down a materialistic science standpoint, because you hit the nail on the head.

I think then it becomes a military threat. Then it becomes the impetus for us to further control and use our standard playbook of military industrial complex. We’re going to protect you kind of thing. It all fits together. Before we jump on, I have like five other topics that you’ve already kind of brought up that I want to get back to including the past lives memory thing.

But I did, I did. I kind of get that right. And I kind of took it one step further with perhaps ITI is part of that planting that screen memory of. Don’t worry. It’s just, it’s just an object. It’s just nuts and bolts. It’s just a machine in the sky.

[00:36:49] Nelson Apostata: So how would you define the screen memory by the way?

[00:36:53] Alex Tsakiris: Well, the screen memory, isn’t so much my term, it’s just a common term among abductees that they feel like.

And it’s also a term that is used for people who have trauma, dissociative identity kind of thing of where it’s like in hypnosis, where there’s a block, you know, as soon as you start thinking about something, you’re just blocked from going any further. So the screen mint, the screen memory among the abduction community.

And I don’t want to overstate it because I’m certainly not an expert is implanted memory that when they examine it further, seems inconsistent with what they would normally, how they would normally process the situation. You know what I mean? So it’s just stands out as kind of an unusual implanted memory that doesn’t exactly fit the scenario.

You know, why are my clothes, why am I wearing someone else’s clothes? You know, it’s like, well, there’s an explanation for it. There’s an explanation for everything that pops into mind that rationally doesn’t make any sense.

[00:38:01] Nelson Apostata: We always come back to the existential question then with UFC. Of consciousness, the nature of consciousness. And it reminds me so much of NDAs as well. And we’ll get to this in a second. I think later on that there’s this seemingly absurd or irrational bizarreness, even most of this phenomenon that it’s difficult to really just make sense of.

And this is one of the reasons why I started to question what these NDAs actually could be. And I do you want me to get into that now? Actually what,

[00:38:39] Alex Tsakiris: maybe let’s pause. Let’s pause on that for a second, because I kind of wanted to finish a point that I was, maybe I was not getting there fast enough, but with the past life memories, The one problem I see with that is like, like I was saying, you know, you can go down to the gym Tucker path and the science that the university of Virginia has compiled on that and you walk away and you go, wow.

And then the one thing that strikes you is the big lie, you know, well, how can science ignore this? This is overwhelming data that’s replicated over and over again. And Jim Tucker is doing the right thing. He just says, I’m just compiling more and more and more data, more casework doing it as carefully as I can.

And you can appreciate this from your academic background is I’m just going to pile it up. And I’m going to stack the corded wood with cases from the north America as well, because there’s a certain amount of dismissing this because they’re from India or Sri Lanka. But the, the problem with that is that then I think a lot of people take the next step and I’m unwilling to take that next step. The next step is to suggest that it is literally true, that you are literally literally remembering a past life and that you can understand that in the context of your life.

And if you really step back and look at that. And that’s why, I guess how I would relate that back to your story of the, your past life or memory or what you suspect is a past life memory. Of the ancient

[00:40:07] Nelson Apostata: Egypt or notation marks as well. That’s why I did put it in Quantico. Quotation. Max’s.

[00:40:14] Alex Tsakiris: I sense that you have that sensibility, which I think is great.

And I, I mean, I guess this is kind of even more of a philosophical question, but you’re of that mindset to, to be the right guy to talk about this is that that is a recurring theme in this, in terms of how do we move forward? How do we use that, that data, that new data that is trying to be suppressed and trying to be denied, but then how do we not overstep with it?

Because if you understand the implications of what I’m, ER, you understand where I’m going with that is that past life memories do not only make sense in linear time. And yet they’re talking about escaping time and space to have those memories. So there’s an, there’s already an internal contradiction that no one talks about.

How can you have a past life memory? What does that mean? Why do you think your life is primary? Are you living multiple lives at the same time? You know, which life is primary is fundamental. All these questions kind of just get pushed aside and say, well, we’ll know, can you take me back to a time when I had this past life memory without really thinking it through.

And then I think as our challenge in terms of pushing this consciousness, frontier is to just kind of point out these obvious problems. Do you have any, do you have any thoughts on that?

[00:41:38] Nelson Apostata: My thoughts on this are that there are a number of angles that we’ve been taking by. The actual investigators, such as the university of Virginia professor with the but the reincarnation stories that he’s been compiling and Dr.

Long, for instance, and others put them along with the near death experiences. And they’re really investigators who are compiling the data and they’re specialists in their field and highly qualified in that field. But then there is the, the analysis of the data and looking at different data sets as well.

For instance, what you’ve been doing on your show is looking at all these different fields, which originally seemed to be disconnected, like when you started talking about UFO’s. I was really just I found that just quizzical really, I didn’t really understand where you’re going with that. And some of your audience also were wondering what you were doing with this, but then we look at the similarities, just the overall patterns between these different fields.

And we’ll put that in quotation marks as well. So these different data sets and we’ve got near-death experiences, for instance, we’ve got reincarnation memories and we’ve got euphology and I just, and we’ve got mythology as well. And so if we’ve got all of these different fields of study and folklore as well, so many of them, if we look at it as a very, very broad.

We’re seeing very, very similar phenomenon, for instance, this sensation of timelessness that these experiences have that time becomes meaningless, that, that space, or also becomes meaningless just with a thought. This UFO seems to just what the duct is recalling is that they’re, then they’re at that place and that there’s this, this locality with this whole pattern, and this is what I think is necessary for the few people in the world who have enough knowledge with these different data sets were being trained as well to analyze data that we can just see these overall patterns and not be distracted by the smaller details.

And we can just see the overall pattern for instance, of what you were describing of timelessness and spaciousness within all of these data sets.

[00:44:00] Alex Tsakiris: But it’s tough, isn’t it? And I’d go back to your background. I thought it was so interesting. You said you were studying these Greek vases, right? Like, and you were probably one of the top experts in the world that, that I imagine just from what you’re telling me, not that you were the top, but one of the top.

And so there was someone out there’s someone out there what’s that.

[00:44:21] Nelson Apostata: Compared to the general population.

[00:44:22] Alex Tsakiris: So there’s someone out there on the site doing the archeological, dig sifting through that stuff. That’s bringing back to you the little pieces and then you’re compiling those little pieces and then there’s someone else who’s analyzing it, as you said, well, great Nelson, that’s great. And you’ve put it together and you’ve put it.

[00:44:44] Nelson Apostata: And just to be clear, I’ve always been more of than analyst, not an investigator. So I specialize in the, the analysis, not the actual excavation, it’s not archeology. So I’m looking at it as more of a meta analysis of all these different religions, these ancient religions and the ancient cultures and how they thought, and really immersing myself and seeing the overall patterns of this and to figure out how they thought, how the material culture was

[00:45:16] Alex Tsakiris: awesome.

Totally awesome. And I kind of assumed, so, and I just was wondering if you wanted to take what you just said and take that even further, right? Because. As you described at the very beginning of this show, then your mind, when you learned about some folklore and mythology that you weren’t familiar with, you immediately expanded your paradigm, which was already kind of there, you know, and I think that’s, what’s constantly, constantly going on.

And as you point out, what it’s going to take is then merging that paradigm with about four other paradigms to nudge even closer to it. And when you look at it from that perspective, I don’t know, it’s a big job.

[00:45:58] Nelson Apostata: Yeah. And we’ve got to be careful with all of this, that when we’re seeing the patterns, which are actually very repetitive and they’re very significant, I think, but we still have to be skeptical that just because there is a correlation with all these data sets that it is actually a causation, because maybe it isn’t the same exact mechanism that’s behind every single one.

But I still think it’s significant that we still see this pattern for instance of timelessness. And non-locality within all of this within mythology folklore, within euphology with the near-death experience science and within. Studies as well,

[00:46:38] Alex Tsakiris: so great. And I want to jump right back into the mythology thing, cause it’s really kind of a hot button issue for me, but I can’t resist before we go there.

Do you have any examples from your personal experience as a researcher where this correlation versus causation thing did crop up? I always think of the cave paintings and the initial thing is, oh, that’s pornography. You know that it’s like they dig around. They go, well, no, it’s not at all. You know, it’s like D D anything like that in, in the work that you did, where there was kind of this, if not you, someone else who had to do a major kind of, oops,

[00:47:17] Nelson Apostata: just basically what I would say is that most of the people in academia now who are being paid to work, they are extremely condescending of the ancient cultures. And they are actually rewarded for explicitly describing these religions as superstition explicitly. And this is such a huge prejudice, but you’re just assuming that it’s nonsensical just fantastical ridiculous ideas that these people had.

And I’ve seen this, I’ve seen people, actually, one person in particular that I’m thinking of, he was rewarded given the. For an essay competition, the national essay competition in New Zealand for writing that the ancient religions where superstition

[00:48:07] Alex Tsakiris: so interesting. That’s such a great point because it fits perfectly this, about this other thing we’re talking about, which has been kind of my gig for a long time as the main message being propagated is you are meaningless and you do not.

Consciousness is an illusion. And it’s so funny that people in the humanities don’t understand that, but that would be the natural extension of that. And it’s also fine. Like we’re talking about that. Like, I look at the reincarnation research at Jim Tucker and I guess this is what I was kind of alluding to is like, you know, great reincarnation.

How about just using that just to completely break down this scientific materialism, dogma and its implications for consciousness, because this to me relates directly back to your point. If there is this extended realm, if a reincarnation is in fact, the evidence for that is, is strong. Then that guy no longer looks credible.

Not that he ever did look credible, but I guess what I’m saying is doesn’t a lot of the stuff we’re talking about, including reincarnation science, including near-death experience science.

Do you think that that part of the pushback on that is that it fundamentally undermines that guy you’re talking about in a way that probably he doesn’t even realize, and that, you know, maybe that’s really the game that’s afoot without a lot of people knowing it with inside of academia,

[00:49:43] Nelson Apostata: it’s always difficult to analyze what people are actually motivated by what their inner life is. So I don’t really want to comment too much on that, but I think a lot of probably is unconscious with many of these individuals that they’re so sick in this worldview of reductionist materialism and this meaningless universe.

And that it’s just ridiculous superstition, what the ancients were doing there. They really probably haven’t even heard and alternative. View of this, that like I w I just come at the whole past with this open mind that Navy, what the ancients were describing was literally true, or at least the kernel of truth of what they were experiencing, but a radical idea.

But what if, what they’re describing in the religions and in communication with these entities, which they were obsessively trying to do to get real world effects, maybe they weren’t actually connecting with some entities, or maybe these myths that they’re describing actually are some entities which are visiting human.

And that it’s not just nonsense. That’s the question that I have, I’m open to this. Whereas most academics are just completely closed,

[00:51:03] Alex Tsakiris: right? And at this point, it’s almost like we need to leave academia behind and scientific materialism behind because if it is an operation, as we both kind of suspect, if it is a PSYOP, if it is a conspiracy, then to kind of constantly refer back to it is almost serving its purpose to a certain extent.

So if we kind of lose that route, And or what do they call that stage of the rocket and leave that behind and kind of zoom forward. I want to get right to your point, because right when you set it from the beginning, this is kind of a skeptical moment. I’m uncomfortable with where a lot of people are taking the mythology, folklore, jock, valet kind of stuff, because jock delay of course, was the first one to, I don’t know if it was the first one, but I think he was, I think he was the first one to really draw this, you think?

[00:52:01] Nelson Apostata: Yeah. I think definitely the most influential,

[00:52:03] Alex Tsakiris: yes, good way of putting it. Certainly the most influential and definitely one of the first people to draw this connection between folk lower fairies, other mythical beings and their striking similarity to what people are reporting as the. UFO experience and the ITI experience, the abduction experience, the contact experience, all those things.

What I also point out is that, you know, Jack valet, I interviewed him. He also walks around with a little bit of a slag in his pocket from the UFO that he that the ship that he has, where it’s a physical thing. And he’s put an under the microscope and said, Hey, we don’t know how to build this material.

We don’t know how to manufacture this material. We don’t not fuse these metals together from a technology standpoint. So he is standing with one foot in one world and one foot in the other world. And that’s where I think we all have to stand on this. And it returns to my thing about reincarnation. If we fundamentally don’t understand consciousness, then we have to be really careful about where we go with extended consciousness.

And I’ll just tie a couple of threads back in without really winding them too tight because we can’t, I think the genetic engineering component of this is central, and I’m glad you brought it up from the beginning. I think the work of a Bruce Fenton. Have you heard, do you know Bruce in his, I think his.

Is absolutely critical to understanding this. And for also, also for re-establishing a potential timeline, his timeline is 800,000 years. Okay. So what if we can show some evidence of genetic manipulation for the last 800,000 years for an ongoing process of genetic manipulation, it changes the whole thing so dramatically, and we’re less focused on our little world in our little slice of time that that is being manipulated and shaped in and injected into.

What do you think about all that?

[00:54:17] Nelson Apostata: Well, even the concept of time out perception of it is so limited, it seems, whereas these beings seem to be in this far more expensive reality of time. And you see this in mythology as well of the gods that they’re in this timeless realm. And so then just the blink of an eye as many human lifetimes and that they can punish humans.

For instance, they can do terrible things on mass to humans causing global catastrophes generations after they’ve been insulted by an individual. And this is explicitly talked about in the Greek myths, as well as. STR one of the most fundamental sources of Greek mythology, along with Homer, explicitly states that the gods have a different timeline than humans.

[00:55:09] Alex Tsakiris: Right. And, and I, you know, we keep, we keep hitting on a lot of the, a lot of the same things. Where else do we want to go? I’ll tell you where I want to go. I want to see if we can get some degree of closure with the UFO E T thing, by bringing it back to what we’re experiencing right now and what we’re seeing right now, particularly as it relates to the control and the global control and the message and how the message is being shaped.

It is stunning to me that people. Even entertained really intelligent people really entertain this idea of disclosure as if, as if it’s a current event that happened when the New York times released these videos from 10 years ago as if that is somehow disclosure. I mean, even in our memory and our living memory, we have to scratch our heads and go, well, wait a minute.

What about all those other cases? What about a Roswell? What about, you know, all these cases? What about the flap in DC? All these I could go on and on, but you get the point. So I want to go there and I want to talk about that and bring the UFO ITI thing up to the present, but I want to make sure we leave some time to talk about the romance, because as I maybe mentioned to you, I don’t know if it was before or after we started recording.

You have quite an amazing insight. My little foray into that stuff that, that kind of blew my mind. So w w start with what’s going on today with UFO disclosure.

[00:56:52] Nelson Apostata: So I basically agree with Marty Gaza from the brothers with a certain podcast that there’s disclosure it’s so limited. And actually just from my perspective, just reading that document, the unclassified version was just so insulting the language just as the audience idiots, just hardly saying anything basically.

Nothing sent which right. That

[00:57:15] Alex Tsakiris: yeah. When you say that, remind people, remind people what, you’re, what you’re referring to there, the document that you’re referring to,

[00:57:23] Nelson Apostata: and this was in June of this year, 2020, one of the duty of the U S government to release the information that was held on UFO. If I understand that correctly.

[00:57:38] Alex Tsakiris: Right. And, , what a lot of people point out and rightfully should be, but a lot of people don’t make the connection is, so this was introduced by Donald Trump, in a bill that was tied to you know, as buried in a bill that the government should have to release all information within 180 days.

And the whole thing was absurd from the beginning. And it, it kind of is disappointing to me the extent to which our community, this broader community. Falls into the same game. It’s like we’re watching the sports channel, you know, either in Europe and the American sports channel is the sports channel everywhere in the world.

It’s like, Hey, what are we going to talk about today? And, well, let’s talk about it and talk about it and talk about the same thing over and over again. And there’s no information. They don’t even have to program people to do that.

They just move the cheese a little bit and people follow that. How could it be any more absurd? Why would anyone in the world think that they would really say anything after 180 days, they haven’t released to anything in 60, 70 years or however long they’ve known about it? Why would they feel compelled to release anything in 180 days?

And I, again, I go back to the disclosure thing, cause I interviewed both Leslie Kane and Ralph Blumenthal who were the two, had the byline on the New York times, big disclosure thing. And December of 2017, 2018, I can’t remember now dates are flipping out of my head, but the idea that, that forget about everything else, forget about how we’ve threatened to kill people, forget about how we’ve said.

We will take your family out in the desert and, and bury them alive. If you ever disclose any of the things that you’ve seen, forget all about that disclosure will now be this video that we just released. And we’ll have a bunch of talk about who was the guy, piloting the ship and what do they know here?

It is such an obvious, obvious kind of ploy trick. Not even, it’s not even that sophisticated.

[00:59:45] Nelson Apostata: Because the timeline is so restricted that it’s just going a tiny bit back into the past. And the number of cases that are unexplained is also so limited. Whereas even on 60 minutes, there were pilots saying that they are over the carrier fleets.

They’re seeing the UFO’s almost on a daily basis for years.

[01:00:07] Alex Tsakiris: What does this say about the extent of the control of the message and the extent to which the population is easily manipulated by a controlled message?

To me, it’s, it’s it doesn’t leave a lot of, a lot of hope. I mean, this is stuff that I think anyone should be able to kind of figure out pretty, pretty easily. And I’m surprised. I mean, do you pop out, I’m not even want to mention names cause they’re people I really like, but the people I’ve had

[01:00:36] Nelson Apostata: on, I can just tell you, I almost ignore this then just with this government disclosure business.

Cause it’s just so. That they’re just creating this tiny frame with which to understand the

[01:00:50] Alex Tsakiris: phenomenon. And the question I’m asking is , why do so many people in our community, the leaders in our community buy into this, and it’s not even that they’re buying into it. They’re just seem to be compelled to talk about this talking point of disclosure, rather than going.

This is obviously a PSYOP. We don’t know who exactly is behind the PSYOP. We don’t know the, the, the entire method, but completely S political PSYOP. And, you know, you can go look at the shows that I’ve done, where the leading people are going. Nah, I don’t think so. You know, Lou Elizondo, even though he’s a lifetime spy disinformation agent, I think he’s telling the truth this time.

I’m like, well, what have we learned? What have we learned? You know, it, all this stuff that we’ve

[01:01:35] Nelson Apostata: investigated. Yeah, absolutely. And that’s why I just, just tend to look at the overall patterns way, way back into history. And I’m just going beyond this frame, not giving even this official disclosure, much attention, really, because it’s so irrelevant.

It’s only really relevant in terms of being a asylum, but it’s not actually that relevant as part of the data set itself. Right. So this is what I wanted to sort of draw back on is that even though it’s disappointing, right? The disclosure was going to be disappointing anyway, for most people, but it’s disappointing the reaction of many investigators as well.

But I think if we go beyond that and just focus on the data that we’ve got from all these different fields that your show has covered over the years. And I think this is extremely significant that we have so many similarities and core characteristics of, as we’re saying in mythology and folklore. And then even in even in we 4g and near near-death experiences and in reincarnation studies and the chance that that would be a coincidence, I find just extremely unlikely, for instance, even a near death experiences.

If you go on the database and look up aliens or ITI or something, you’ll actually see even that, that these entities seem to be appearing will reportedly anyway, in there there’s experiences.

[01:03:11] Alex Tsakiris: See, the problem I have with Nelson is most people, including myself at times, have problems resolving the dataset of.

The current disclosure, the UFO’s the obvious, you know, our best pilots, our best observers reporting them in the sky, the videos of them in the sky, the accounts of people who have a hard time resolving that with folklore mythology, as we understand it. And I’d say, you know, like I have, I have a hard time talking to people if I don’t want to talk about COVID and I don’t mind talking about COVID, , I talked to him.

The other day, he’s a major broadcaster in Canada and you know, and he, I wanted to talk to him about the bigger spiritual questions of evil. Is there evil behind some of these people who we see are running this program, he could not get there. And I understand why he has his kids that he’s sending to school that are encountering a mobile vaccination.

And I don’t care what anyone thinks about vaccination pro or con what he doesn’t like as they have a moldable vaccination station and his kids are minors. And there said, Hey, it doesn’t matter if you’re a minor. It doesn’t matter if your parents are consenting. You can come on in here and you can decide yourself, you know, and it’s against the law and all the rest of us get, he is like consumed with this because he’s a parent and he lives in Canada and it’s just a trampling of laws and rights and stuff like that.

This is where people are at. And I think there’s a corollary to where people are at with UFO’s and the corollary is, well, are they, are they a threat? What’s going on? What is going to happen in my lifetime is ITI going to take over in my lifetime. And I think when we hit people with the folklore mythology dataset, which is very real, as you point out it is somewhat irresolvable, you know, you cannot resolve,

[01:05:16] Nelson Apostata: I agree with it.

I just don’t think it is resolvable. It’s just the perception that it seems so complicated that it wouldn’t be resolvable, but even for instances, Joe at-will showed we’ll have this incredibly paradoxical seeming data set of the new Testament. And then just as one researcher just had this brilliant insight that Josephus was the template for the new Testament and researchers before him.

But I studied the new Testament as well, myself and they, this was the typical attitude before at Woolworths that it’s irresolvable the new Testament who wrote it for what reasons? Why are there these contradictions? And it’s so ancient that we’ll never know, but I just disagree with that. I think you can have insights and you can see patterns like apple did, for instance, absolutely classic, just in terms of analysis that he could find a pattern and he could so firmly establish causation as far as you possibly could.

I think, as a researcher of antiquity and now even more and more of the mainstream, even in academia, they’re just going with it. They’re not really giving him credit, but they’re, they’re agreeing with him. So I think we can come to resolve. Analyses with these things.

[01:06:41] Alex Tsakiris: I love it. I love it. So let me push that a little bit further.

Let’s try and connect a couple of these data sets. I’ll expand your, your phrase there. Take the Bruce Fenton data set, which I think is very important in my mind because he has some really good science behind that. He has the Astros tech tights and the dating of those. He has bunch of other stuff, including genetics, very, very powerful stuff.

So from that falls out a couple other, a couple of things. One calls falls out is a clear path, a clear pattern of genetic manipulation. And the other is a timeline that now extends back to 800,000 years. But the other thing that falls, that falls out of that, that a lot of people don’t immediately grab onto is a very kind of a F a faction divided E T and may be species divided, ITI that we can certainly identify with, you know, Hey, this is my planet.

No, this is my planet. Oh, well, I’m going to shoot at you. You’re going to shoot at me. I’m going to win. You’re going to lose. It sounds

[01:07:56] Nelson Apostata: very familiar.

[01:07:57] Alex Tsakiris: It sounds very familiar. So, you know, back to my point of irresolvable. So if we take those and run with it, run with 800,000 years of genetic manipulation, ongoing genetic manipulation, which is consistently reported by abductees is it’s all about genetics.

It’s all about this. Here’s where it doesn’t resolve for me. When I hear people talk about a mythology, they’ll say, like you said, a while back, they seem to be obsessed with bloodlines. No, I look at Bruce Fett and say, dude, they are so fucking far past bloodlines. They’re done genetic splicing in a million different ways and creating all these different in their garden.

They’re creating all these different varieties and they’re pairing them down and they’re doing all this stuff, the idea of a literal bloodline and that, you know, it, it just is it’s, it’s a very It’s it’s a reading of the folklore in mythology that doesn’t get as closer in that way. It can’t really be resolved.

It can only be resolved when we say, oh, perhaps that’s a metaphorical connection to what Bruce Fenton is saying, but we should never dare take that literally that, you know, they’re worried about who they’re fucking so that they get the, the right offspring kind of thing.

[01:09:21] Nelson Apostata: Yeah. That’s a huge can of worms, right?

Because was it just the ancients describing a laboratory style, genetic manipulation using language such as bloodlines and breeding into breeding? Or was it more the laboratories? There are objective scientific manipulation of the genetics, but just taking the ancients, literally the gods in quotation marks were lustful sexually aroused by human individuals and mated with them.

Right. And actually this is what a ballet passports not only are actually in that classic book. And since on the continuum of folklore to euphology, he doesn’t actually go back into mythology, but he does make the connections between between sorry, focus. The witch trials and you theology. And I actually just wrote this quote as well, because it’s so important, but could considerable problems arose?

However, when one had to identify the physical process of intercourse with demons, this is clearly a most difficult point. And then he writes him back. It’s as difficult as that of identifying the physical nature, offline sources who wrote that. And that was valet. That was ballet’s quote. And he was referring to the theologians in the middle Asians who are wrestling with the, the implications that there seemed to be these entities, these demons, but were interbreeding with humans, especially human females and creating offspring.

And how is this even possible? Is this some sort of physical process, some sort of bloodline compatibility. And when we use the word bloodlines and all that, it’s more of an old style of language, but they didn’t have the vocabulary to describe this, but just looking at it on its surface. I still think we have to be, to be true to what the ancient and the medieval sources were saying that there is, this lust seems to be, there seems to be a last of these entities, like Sexual desire of these entities for meeting with humans.

So it’s not just some sterile laboratory

[01:11:44] Alex Tsakiris: thing. So I I’d go a couple of different directions with that one, that level of I don’t know what to even call it, but, but that, to me, that resonates with this extended consciousness realm that we’re talking about. Those level of emotions are to me, seem. to most fit with the angels and the demons and the extended consciousness realm that filters through us.

So I immediately want to pivot on that and say, Hey, what do we really know? What do we really know of as lust and lust being this very human emotion, but in so many ways, it seems to transcend our humanness and that’s both the allure of it. And it’s also the destructive element of it and that’s been recorded forever.

So when we talk about ITI with that, I go back to my question. What does ETS near-death experience look like? What does ETS past life? What does ETS life review look like? To me that gets us closer than reading the Sumerian tablets or reading the Ana Knocky. You know who say w w I was just hearing some of the other days and expert in the Anunnaki say, yeah.

You know we tried the genetic I’m paraphrasing. Obviously we tried the genetic engineering in a clay pot, but that didn’t work so good. So then they had to shift to, you know, and you read this stuff and you go, oh fuck man, genetic generic, generic. I don’t think they tried it with a clay pot. I think they realized that might not work so well.

So th th that’s what I mean, where it’s irresolvable

[01:13:19] Nelson Apostata: and that’s where we get into this whole other layer of false research, or I don’t want to call it disinformation, but such. Such as the one who translated the Sumerian texts for anyone who doesn’t know. And it’s, it’s just being very much criticized, has translations of certain words.

And that it’s very much just leading into his pet theory of this. And I just, I don’t want to go there to the mushroom cause that’s not my field,

[01:13:46] Alex Tsakiris: but I think we, we would, we would have to interject that over time. Some of spit, some of Zachariah situations, speculations have proven to be much more accurate than the original academic interpretations of it.

So we’re in this no, man’s land that where we kind of returned to of like, yeah. Did he take it too far? And did he misquote it? Yes. But was he on somehow the right track in some way? We don’t know. Right.

[01:14:14] Nelson Apostata: But yeah, because just from my perspective, just looking at it as academically as possible, I would just use the standard trends, academic translations of these texts, like the Numa Aleisha and these other, like the Gilgamesh epic and all of these different ones and just use the standard academic translations, which are accepted by everyone.

And you don’t even need some specific special translations of words to just see just this overwhelming pattern of of interbreeding between gods and humans. And this is in different contents, even going right into the folklore of the American Indians. RD six killer clocks, the professor of anthropology, right.

And her reports of these that latest is now

[01:15:01] Alex Tsakiris: people start people is with that

[01:15:03] Nelson Apostata: and several books as well now. And it’s just remarkable the continuum throughout time. And even of beings that we would have encountered in mythology of these certain time beings even what David has been passing on, which he was just absolutely made a laughingstock off in the mainstream, but what is this as of a coincidence that you’ve got people, these traditional people on the other side of the world and America birth, this relatively unbroken tradition of folklore, and they’re even experiencing these serpentine seemingly interdimensional metamorphosizing beings that are serpentine and they seem hostile to humans.

And just as a researcher, who’s open-minded, you just have to take these seriously. You just can’t just pass them off as.

[01:15:59] Alex Tsakiris: Hey, that’s a, that’s a super great point. And I think you, I think you did, I think you, you won that one in terms of that’s a very direct here and now example of where we are forced to resolve that we are forced, which is your point.

We do have to kind of, and that’s what I think you’re advocating. Hey, that has to be part of your paradigm in a here now kind of world. Because as you point out, if we go to the native American tradition, some of those encounters are not that they’re more or less present day kind of thing, or within a couple of generations,

[01:16:37] Nelson Apostata: yeah. You know, like her latest book, I think it’s the latest book, the one on a different seeming species of a UFO beings. And one of the sections on this as on these reptilian sort of entities, which has shape-shifters and she’s getting these reports apparently from veterans, from Vietnam and from more recent reports as well.

So it’s very recent, all of her accounts. And I just find her relatively trustworthy source and then professor of, or retired now, professor of anthropology. And she seems to. Good protocols for the collection of data and not seeming to have leading questions. Unlike, for instance, Y saw from, for instance, the Betty and Barney hill case way back in the fifties with the hypnosis that was done in this, the audio of this, which is available on YouTube, that you can actually hear the original recording.

And this hypnotist is asking extremely leading questions and as filling in even what the meaning of certain things are. So I was just very impressed with RD six o’clock book for instance, on, on these different seeming species of UFO beings, if we can call them that in quotation marks, and this is very strange, right?

That there would seem to be these species, these factions, which are fighting against each other. And that they’re actually in their counters with humans, explicitly telling the humans that there are these factions of these beings and that they’re fighting against each other. And that some are extremely hostile to humans, these reptilians and the which are also shaped shifters as well to at least some degree.

And these other species, if we can call them this of these UFO beings, which seemed to be more friendly towards humans and even protecting humans from from disease, curing people and taking them away from a war zones, for instance. And I just see this pattern over and over again. Factions or species of these UFO beings, which are then conflict with each other.

And humans seem to be in the middle of this and quite unwitting and even quite minor players in the whole cosmos. And this is actually exactly what we see in the theology that humans are actually very minor and the scale of the cosmos and the difference species, if we can call them that of these gods in conflict with each other, for instance, in Greek mythology, it’s between the, the Olympians and the Titans.

And there’s this great struggle between zoos, for instance, the king of the Olympians, the lead of the Olympians, and Prometheus’s the Titan who was eating humans. It seems giving them technology, giving humans technology, and use being so so angry at us that he tortured, Prometheus’s in perpetuity.

And then you’ve got in this fragmented Hess yard who was one of the most important sources of mythology that it explicitly detailing how duke decided that there was too much interbreeding between. The Demi gods and the gods, and that this was becoming a danger to the purity of the bloodline of the gods and that he was going to wipe out the Denny gods with these bloodlines are if we can call them deadlines.

So it’s very much a pattern again, that we see in you follows you. These factions were fighting amongst themselves and humans seem to be in the middle of this and just small players. And then you’ve got the theology basically saying the same thing.

[01:20:42] Alex Tsakiris: Hey, let me, let me jump in there. That is, that is wonderful.

And I see where now I see more clearly where you’ve been going all along and I just hear would be my, my pushback, but the interesting part of the discussion we can have to me, it seems like a one, it seems like a Wivell matters kind of question. It also seems like an as below, so above kind of question in terms of we see the same thing.

Within ourselves. And within our culture, people who are deemed as less worthy, less valuable, and we’ve done this throughout our, our recorded history. You know, these people can be ignored. These people can be butchered killed in all sorts of ways in slaved, all these things. So this idea of there being this hierarchy that we impose that is beyond any kind of moral imperative of some ultimate highest form of the consciousness is, is always that question.

And maybe I’m not being direct enough. So the point I would make is. Do we think consciousness is hierarchical. Are we willing to speculate that there is a hierarchy and that hierarchy would point to something that we would identify as God. And I think that most of our wisdom traditions would tell us along with the science that I see, like the near death experience, science is telling us that the Prometheus’s a head fake, the reptilian alien is a head fake in the sense of, if you think that’s God, you’ve kind of missed the point, the point is they’re going to have a life review too.

And they have a soul and their soul is on some kind of journey that we can’t understand. And this is why I’m being reluctant to go there. Cause we can’t really talk about this stuff in any meaningful way, but at the same time, I think if we don’t talk,

[01:22:38] Nelson Apostata: I think that’s a limiting belief. I think we can, we just need to look at the data.

And if we look at near-death experiences, it’s undeniable that there’s a hierarchy of souls shown, showing that all the way up to what you could call God. And we see this in the mythology as well. They’re talking about hierarchies, it’s extremely hierarchical. So we just look at the data and the data shows overwhelmingly that it’s not egalitarian.

There, there are hierarchies. And in these wisdom traditions in these extremely intense. Meditative traditions and a Tibet, and then India, we’re seeing exactly the same thing as well,

[01:23:19] Alex Tsakiris: let me just interject here because I want to get your thought on this. The way I read that from , a lot of the Indian tradition in the non dual tradition, is that what we’re, what we’re really looking at is confusion is a misunderstanding is a less than full learning.

And that if we did look at it more broadly, and I’m just throwing this out as a hypothesis, is that, that kind of hierarchy is attuned to our consciousness down here. But that the ultimate reality is that we’re all just bubbles in the ocean. And there’s a lot of bubbles in the ocean.

And every time a wave hits, there’s a bunch of new bubbles. Don’t get too hung up on your bubble and don’t get too Promethease man, that’s a big bubble, but it’s just a fucking bubble. That would be the non dual philosophy that we’re all kind of back to that.

[01:24:12] Nelson Apostata: Sorry to interrupt that this is the biggest debate in Indian philosophy, right.

And the Dante of Juul was, and versus non-dualism and qualified non-dualism. So you’ve got these mixtures of, of viewpoints fine, but I just think, look at the data, right? Yeah. The data is showing that there are hierarchies. So I just think you’ve got to somehow get around that. You could say that there, that there’s something beyond that, but to just deny that there is hierarchy within the NDA experiences would just be to just falsify things.

Right. I just want to be clear about that.

[01:24:50] Alex Tsakiris: . Then let’s agree on that and see where that takes us, because sometimes what I hear you saying, and I hear this in the, in the mythology folklore you know shapeshifting alien kind of thing is. An assumption that that hierarchy is different than I would assume it to be.

So when I look at Ted Bundy and I look at somebody who I think was being influenced by beings in the extended consciousness realm, I’m not sure where to put Ted Bundy in that hierarchy. When I look at the people who are behind some of these global control mechanisms that seem to be imposed on us. When I look at, you know, the Wivell matters, the Aanuka Lucas sold into a satanic ritual abuse cult at six years old by her mother.

I don’t know what her, how her mother fits in the hierarchy. I don’t know how the people who brought this child to a mansion and were the highest ranking, the European rulers and raped a six-year-old. I don’t know how they fit into this hierarchy, but I would suggest my gut instinct is that if we’re thinking of it as purely a human hierarchy, we’re kind of missing the point.

And I would say the similarly that if we’re thinking of the reptilian, who’s raping the abductee, which we hear about in the tea encounters as somehow fitting into this hierarchy and we’re going to slot him or her in there, or there, I don’t think we have the ability to do that in a way that is reliable.

[01:26:34] Nelson Apostata: I agree because we just, we, we can’t really look into the minds of these individuals, right? We have to also leave open the possibility that there is direct entity possession of people. And this goes way back into the ancient past.

[01:26:49] Alex Tsakiris: And we wouldn’t even know where to slot those entities.

[01:26:54] Nelson Apostata: I can even give you some, some data points here, which I actually wrote down bull sharks because we didn’t really discuss much of this.

We’re just really opening cans of worms here that according to Wikipedia on spirit possession, I’ll just quote the sentence quote. In a 1969 study funded by the national Institute of mental health spirit, possession beliefs were found to exist in 74% of a sample of 488 societies in all parts of the world.

So 74% of societies, that’s a great,

[01:27:30] Alex Tsakiris: that’s a great quote. Wikipedia finally pays off.

[01:27:34] Nelson Apostata: Yes. And I just think you’ve just got to follow the data with these things and there’s too much speculation, too much philosophy. Without really getting the feet firmly on the ground of the data itself.

[01:27:46] Alex Tsakiris: Right. But, but I’m going to drill on this a little bit further.

I I’m suggesting that that data again is even when we creep closer to it. So all about exactly what you’re doing is that the data moves us closer to being a little bit less wrong. We’re always going to be wrong, but a little bit less wrong, but we’re where I see a lot of people going with that.

And it seemed like you were with me and you agreed is that the implications that are unclear the implications of where we would slot the demon, that’s possessing someone in the hierarchical structure is unclear to us. . Just like it’s unclear where we would slot somebody who is out there living right next to us that you’re going to walk past the street.

That is an advanced human being of a spiritual order that we can’t really understand. Maybe that person would be slotted like way, way up there. I don’t think we know. And I think we, we make the mistake when we assume that that this order is somehow within our grasp. I don’t think it is.

[01:28:54] Nelson Apostata: No, I agree. I agree with that because how do we even define what is a more evolved being, if we can just use this hierarchy as a structure.

We’ve identified this in the data, but how do we even define what is then a more advanced being for instance, the typical ancient religious few was that especially in the east and India and Tibet was that the, the more advanced being was just just beyond the physical and release the attachments of the physical, so to speak and was in a freedom from the chain of birth, death and rebirth.

But this is going to open a huge can of worms here, because I hadn’t actually heard anyone say this before, but I was reading about what cargo staff young, the psychologist wrote about his UFO experience. Cause he wrote a book on you close as well. And he relates a dream that he had, where he was by a lake in the stream.

And it seemed very, very vivid and real. And on the edge of the lake, there was this light, which was obvious and grew larger than became a UFO. And from this, this UFO came, this beam of light and it Shaun on him. And somehow he had this intuition, this feeling that he Calgo start viewing the individual was actually a projection of the U S.

So that he was created by the UFO. And this to me was absolutely mind-blowing when I started thinking about this. Cause I respect I fields just as is or Udacity just to open up these these more hidden fields and just as experienced as to relate them. And it’s just seems so bizarre that a UFO would actually be creating yourself your own ego, your own physical body.

And then I started to wonder, was this to get back to the very beginning, was this reincarnation experience in quotation marks that I had? Was this a projection, some sort of telepathic sort of reality that I saw that was completely controlled by this UFO, but how do I actually know that this was real?

What I saw, maybe it was just like seeing a movie, a film by this UFO or something that wanted me to see, but it has no basis whatsoever in reality, like as a historical reality. .

[01:31:32] Alex Tsakiris: I’m totally with you. I really appreciate where you’re going with that historical reality.

Again, that that is just another looking glass, another lens through which to look at. And I guess I always come back to this point, all the data, all the data sets. We have suggest that we have the most disadvantaged viewpoint of all this shit, right? So it’s like if you’re going to process that back in the here and now reality, everything we have tells us, man, you’re, you’re kind of at a, at a, at a loss, like people who have transcendent experience and say, I knew everything.

I knew the answer to all the physics questions I could even ask in my head. They immediately came to me and then I came back and I don’t have it anymore. I had, you know, unlimited telepathic and spiritual powers and I don’t have them anymore. So I just think I just got to check myself, check you when we come back and say, okay, now I’m here now in this time-space reality.

And I’m contemplating what young wrote in his book. It’s like, cool. But realize we’re really at a disadvantage when we do that.

[01:32:42] Nelson Apostata: Absolutely. I agree with you there, but there are other, just looking at it at this level of recollection, right. That young is recollecting what he was experiencing and I’m recollecting what I experienced.

And I can say as well, like a Richard Dolan, the, he had an excellent video recently on the psychology of aliens. Let’s just call them aliens for now. Right? You can. I prefer the term UFO being because it’s more open, but, but he just made the amazing point that these tall grays that they they seem to be really scary if you just think about it.

But so often these experiences are reporting that they are feeling these overwhelming feelings of love and Dolan is just making, just putting these two together and just saying like, how is this even possible that these people are experiencing more love, reportedly anywhere than they’ve ever experienced before in the presence of these 12 grade?

And this, this, just to me, just shows that these beings seem to be able to manipulate our consciousness, our feelings to such an enormous degree, for instance, Ray Hernandez, another example who you’ve interviewed, he was, was going down the stairs and just had this thought put into his head, seemingly just this is nonsense.

The seeing this UFO down with his wife, healing the dog, and he just walks up to the bedroom. Right. And it’s just so controlling. It’s extreme

[01:34:12] Alex Tsakiris: controlled. That’s a scream memory, by the way, you know, I was stumbling with the term. That’s a great example of a, of a screen memory or an implanted thought, ,

[01:34:20] Nelson Apostata: if we take into consideration this data, that these UFO beings are extremely telepathic and can control people’s thoughts and feelings and actions to such a huge degree, including overwhelming feelings of love that they’ve never experienced at such a degree that we have to leave it on the table.

Maybe NDS are also a manipulation that is not the foundation of reality, that it could be the UFO’s manipulating our consciousness while we’re somehow loosened from our physical bonds.

[01:34:55] Alex Tsakiris: Totally. It’s totally a possibility. It just doesn’t add up to me. It’s like the super Sy explanation for after death communication.

It doesn’t really make any sense if you, if you think it through, because it doesn’t fit the reported phenomenon that you hear all the time. ,

it’s also like when I hear about the simulation theory that we’re living in a simulation . You know, in the same thing, I would say here we are, they are somehow projecting a feeling of infinite love and oneness simulation simulation of what, what are they simulating?

This is, again, this is now outside of time and space. It’s outside of our physical, emotional, you know brain-based experience, chemical kind of thing, right? Because near-death experience, we no longer have a brain. We no longer have a body to process it at a biochemical level. So if ITI is doing that, what are they simulating to me?

I would read it as they’re simulating something that is real is authentic. And they’re trying to co-opted in some way

[01:36:03] Nelson Apostata: possible. Or for instance, there’s a layer of say a field of, let’s say Rupert Sheldrake morphic resonance field. Let’s just say, just to hypothesize this, and then it’s something so subtle that we can’t measure with our current instruments, but that somehow we are then experiencing reality. So to speak within this, within this layer of our consciousness, but it’s not the ultimate foundation of reality.

And that somehow these UFO beings are able to manipulate this more subtle reality and give them. Experiences which are so vivid, so real theming and filled with so much emotion. And it is still on this sort of intermediary level between physical normal consciousness and the ultimate foundation of let’s say some idealistic universe of, of consciousness is immaterial and completely free of material.

[01:37:06] Alex Tsakiris: So again, you know, a possibility and certainly something that has to be thrown on the table and considered as an explanation for some of these cases, it doesn’t, to me fit with the overall data on the near death experience experience. Because one thing I always try and remind people of what the near-death experience is.

You, you almost have to bifurcate it in term into two parts. One is, is it evidential of extended consciousness? And you go, boom, boom, boom, over and over again. Okay. It is so back to this getting past scientific materialism, where there from that, then can we make certain assumptions? Can we begin to find patterns in the stories in the accounts?

And I think we can, again, you referenced Jeff law. Statistically, you start seeing patterns that you can’t totally go there, but you can say, Hey, that, that doesn’t really, that seems to be pointing towards something. You know, I, I always referenced the Netflix. Excellent, special surviving death, I think is the name of it by Leslie cane again, who did a fantastic job, but that the opening scene of that six part series on Netflix is this woman who her name escapes me right now, but she’s become quite famous.

She was a doctor and quite an quite an accomplished doctor. And she was kayaking down in central America and her kayak turned over and she was under water for 20 minutes and she died and she had a near-death experience. Classic near-death experience, the crux or the real kind of point of her near-death experience is she reaches a point where many indie years do where she actually has a choice.

Again, this speaks to the issue of freewill philosophically, the choice shall she returned to her life as she knew it, or she’ll she stay in this other realm, she chooses to return as she’s walking out the door. And this makes no sense to me. I don’t know how to make sense of it, but this is her account as she’s quote unquote, walking out the door.

I’m kidding. They’d go. Oh, by the way, your son, sorry, but he only has 10 years till. So she returns and her husband and her are living with this, which is unimaginable to me. You know, having kids that your son has 10 years to live, but they’re like, we don’t know, you know, life is, life is a mystery who knows, and this and that 10 years pass.

And they’re like cautiously celebrating because he hasn’t died within several months. He walks out into the street and is hit by a boss and is killed. So that account to me, doesn’t sound like E T and the hundreds and hundreds of other accounts that I’ve read. Don’t sound like E T they sound like more, what we’d identify as , genuine compassion, genuine love, genuine experiences of the highest order of feelings of this spirituality that we all experience at our best and, and most profound times that is uplifting.

And the counter to that I think would have to fit inside of some other paradigm. So if there is another paradigm in which that would fit, then I think you have to offer some kind of explanation for how that would work. And even what would be the goals of such, such a paradigm in all those wind. But to me sounding very materialistic sound very much like, well, the aliens need to, to collect gold, to get their atmosphere back.

They sound so not spiritual that they are almost a non starting point.

[01:40:59] Nelson Apostata: Okay. I agree with you on your analysis of the data, just on the data of the NDA. So we can establish that with enough Stuart yet. I think that that is a genuine pattern that there is, this love is hugely important and that there are hierarchies that there’s God.

[01:41:18] Alex Tsakiris: Let me just add, I have to, I have to add one thing because it’s an important distinction. It’s not a feeling of love, right? Because it can’t be a feeling of love because when we use that language, we’re talking about a biochemical reaction inside of this biology that we walk around with and these people.

And it’s an important point from the near-death experience. We know they are relieved of that, of, of, of those requirements. They no longer have a physiology that could process that biochemical reaction. So we would have to speculate on that whole level as well.

[01:41:59] Nelson Apostata: Yeah. That’s speculation as well, because we could call it a sensation or a, well, what, what, what could we even call it?

I don’t know, but I think it is a it’s an assumption that you can’t experience what we couldn’t quotation marks called feelings in these outer body experiences. And then these non-cooperative experiences, because we’re just assuming that one can’t, but I know, I know this is the, the reported experience of these people that they can’t feel, for instance The same sort of drives that they have fear and things that, that they seem to have had before.

But I still think that they can feel certain things, for instance, love and sometimes fear

[01:42:45] Alex Tsakiris: and yeah, but Nelson I’m, I’m saying it more from a kind of a nuts and bolts materialistic standpoint. If you’re going to drag along the whole biochemical reaction inside the body and the inside the brain, which people want to do that is gone.

So whatever you’re going to speculate about you, whoever it is you’re saying can spill, still experience the feelings you’re going to have to leave behind all the neurology, all the physiology, all the biochemistry associated with what we commonly talk about as experiencing feelings, you know, and you know what I’m saying?

[01:43:24] Nelson Apostata: Yeah. So we just have to be open, I think, to the possibility that when you’re in these altered states of not being corporate real, that you’re, you can still sense certain things, certain longings as well, for instance, see loved ones again, but I just think it would be minded just to.

I assume that certain sensations are only physical, such as love or fear or longing because it doesn’t seem to fit with the data.

[01:43:56] Alex Tsakiris: Well, but my point is, once you get there, then kind of all bets are off because now you’re talking about your are shape-shifting reptilian and you, you, you, you just have no you’re, you’re, you have no way of really talking about what a shape-shifting reptilian is.

When we talk about you experiencing what you’re you experiencing, what your brain is setting off in your head. That’s one thing. And if we talk about that, shape-shifting reptilian coming in and raping a loved one of yours. We can talk about that. But as soon as we shifted that other realm, again, kind of all bets are off.

We, we don’t, we don’t even know what your experience is anymore.

[01:44:42] Nelson Apostata: We can’t directly establish causation, right? We can’t really establish it, but I would just go back to this, looking at patterns again, and this is going to come into the sire angle of things. And that if you look at what Richard Dolan was describing of the tall greys and the reported experiences of these people are overwhelming love, and you compare this to.

The near-death experience reports of this overwhelming love. And then you look at, for instance, the new Testament and it’s all about love. Love is all that matters. And yeah, it is very much just on this Jesus character that we also look at the counterculture in the sixties, 1960s with the Beatles. All you need is love.

And I just started to get a little bit suspicious of this. Why is it always just love? Why is it only about that? And not about for instance, material accomplishments in this world? Why is it always just life? And I just started to get suspicious that this was some sort of sire, and I’m not saying it is, I’m just throwing it out there as a devil’s advocate.


[01:45:53] Alex Tsakiris: right. And so the only thing, and this is going to hopefully get us into this kind of last topic that we wanted to talk about. Because I want to talk about the Romans. I want to talk about the Christian

PSYOP and I want to


. It’s been an absolutely terrific chat Nelson. Where do we go from here? Where do you go from here? Are you writing about this publishing any of this or is it just cooking up there in your brain?

[01:46:18] Nelson Apostata: It’s in the cooking mode at the moment and how I’ll be in touch with you after the show.

And I’ll send you some links as well. I don’t even have a website yet, so I’ll, I’ll give you some links of I’ll start some things up as well, because I am planning. Actually writing a historical novel. And I’ve like even David Mathison and our discussions with each other he recommended I would write a book and I really appreciate his work by the way, David Matheson.

So I don’t want to be too harsh on some of these great thinkers and researchers

[01:46:49] Alex Tsakiris: and well, it’s been terrific. And thanks again, Nelson we’ll we’ll stay in touch.

[01:46:54] Nelson Apostata: All right. Thank you very much. It’s been a pleasure.


[01:46:56] Alex Tsakiris: Thanks again to Nelson for joining me today on skeptical. The one question I tee up from this interview is.

What do you make of Nelson’s suspicion about love in the extended consciousness realm. I love the. The pullback, the paranoia, the conspiratorial mindset. It’s so importantly refreshing from a. From an academic from an academically trained. Real philosophy. From. From a really deep thinker, academically trained deep thinker, like Nelson, it’s quite refreshing. And I think it took us in so many interesting ways.

But what do you think about his theory? Let me know. Come to the skeptical form like Nelson did and make some brilliant comments. I’d love to find you there. Until next time. Take care. And bye for now.


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