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Dr. Joanna Kujawa is a religious scholar and expert on goddesses and spirituality.

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Click here for Dr. Joanna Kujawa’s website

Click here for: The Other Goddess: Goddess of Eros and Secret Knowledge

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Alex Tsakiris: On this episode of Skeptiko. A show about the darkness and light of sexuality.

[00:00:09] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: I just decided to focus on sexuality because there is so much darkness around it. So I said, okay, why don’t I address it? Why don’t I bring it into light? Like they wanted to demean, for example, Martin Mandela and on other goddesses. And then the, my question is why there must be some liberating power in it and we have to claim it, but in our own way, not for darkness, but for love.

Alex Tsakiris: And why we might want to be suspicious. Of spiritual intermediaries.

[00:00:38] Clip: I, as an ordained person with an indelible mark can make. Holy communion is what separates you from me. So for instance, . If you’re gay and you’re not absolutely chased and celebrate you, can’t go to. If you vote for somebody who, uh, approves of abortion, you can’t go to communion according to some. So it’s become a kind of a politicized.

For thinking the right way. Stick around for my interview with the very excellent doctor Joanna Kohavi.

(———)

[00:01:12] Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to skeptical where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers and their critics.

I’m your host, Alex Securus. And today we welcome Dr. Joanna to skeptical. She’s here to talk about this book that I’ve pulled up on the screen, Mary Magdalen, and the goddesses of arrows and secret knowledge.

Joanna. It’s awesome to have you here. Thanks so much for joining me on skeptical.

[00:01:41] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: Thank you, Alex. I’m delighted to be here reviewed

[00:01:45] Alex Tsakiris: well, you know, we’ll see what you say at the end.

I’m sure we will. You know, I’ve been looking forward to this and the more I’ve dug into the book, the more I’ve really thought about so many things that I’d love to share and talk, and we’ve had some good emails back and forth, and I think we’ll have a fun spirited discussion, but a positive one. It’s like I said, you are my Dharma sister, man.

You’re into, you know, God, you’re into spirituality. You’re into all this cool stuff. Tell us a little bit about your background. I’m going to read a little bit before you do. I’m going to interrupt that I’m going to short circuit that. Excellent. Bye. People can check out your website and if they do, they’ll check out this very cool bio about.

Dr. Joanna and read a bunch of stuff. And there’s a little bit that I pulled out of there that I thought was really cool. Although through my university education, I was groomed to be a Catholic intellectual. The story I was told, made less and less sense. I subscribed to no religion. And yet I’m a passionate believer in spiritual evolution at the presence of spirituality in all aspects of our lives, will I love that rich spiritual lives not rigid, fear-based religion, but spirituality, which expands by embracing every aspect of our humanity and making it divine.

This calls for redefining spirituality and freeing it from old constraints and limitations imposed by past cultural conditioning. How beautiful.

[00:03:41] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: Ah, thank you. But it’s true. It’s true for all of us. I think for many of us for, I call myself a spiritual detective, but I think it’s probably true about every sincere spiritual seeker, right?

Like we, we know that you are more than we are told that we are by, by. I would argue, I don’t know if it’s controversial on the show or not by, by all traditional religions, you know, they, instead of uplifting us, you know, they, in some ways try to solve a spiritual evolution. However, they did some good things such as I would argue, they present certain sacred writings for us, you know, but I think that we should be able to interpret them as selves right then, and take something from that, that, that, you know, the hidden truth sometimes in between lines.

So it requires more effort than just going to church. It’s a quiet passion and.

[00:04:42] Alex Tsakiris: You know what let’s, let’s take what you just said, which is quite, quite beautiful, quite, you know, controversial to some, but to others, it’s just second nature and connect that forest to the book.

[00:04:55] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: Okay. So I actually, um, um, uh, at the moment, for last 16 years, I’ve been living in Australia and I before in Canada and Paris, but I’m originally from Poland.

And I was brought up in an interesting environment because in Poland, everybody, it was a communist regime, but everybody was also Catholic, deeply Catholic, like the very medieval version of Catholicism, you know, like what people believe in the 14th century, people believed in the 20th century, in the Poland eyelids.

Right. It’s changing now. So, you know, as a do good, I was going to church, you know, normal, right. And there are some beautiful Baroque churches in my hometown and I, our waist, you know, I noticed that, you know, the divine feminine was definitely worshiped in Poland because Virgin Mary is the main deal. You know, like this, this world, she represents basically religion almost.

And I solve assuming all this beautiful paintings of Virgin Mary on one side, but I noticed that there’s this other woman. Yes. So it’s, it’s um, black muddle NAF, just the Hava, you know, she’s actually called the queen of Poland. So she’s just like the main dag. Then my grandmother went on food, you know, for hundreds of kilometers, you know, to, to see the painting on the top of the mountain, you know, it, it is the whole medieval thing.

Right. And, and so, so this is. And then I noticed that in the hidden, in the names of a church, but it wasn’t, there are paintings of this other woman, you know, and it was the paint, the paintings of Mary Magdalen, right. Or Mary Magdalen. And that she was, I had this, um, sense that she was somehow close to Jesus.

So she was close to the teacher as I call him now. And, and, and that’s, there was something shame who is shame to about her, you know, but also something very fascinating and. I didn’t understand it then, but I thought that we have this strange polarity in our minds, you know, especially with the respect to feminine, which is basically, you know, either there’s this mother figure, which is completely pure and, you know, as sexual and the.

Very beautiful archetype, but also get really knitting, you know, like you can be vet and this is the only way to be. And there was this other archetype that was kind of demeaned, but it was very fascinating. So eventually many years after that, I started to explore this archetype that I think, but my motherland, you know, in bodies and looked into goddesses with perhaps came beforehand or were other embodiments of the same archetype.

And I started to look into also as sexuality because I thought that, you know, I started to notice that no matter imagine, and most likely was never a prostitutes, you know, and even like the Catholic church admitted in 1969, but you know, not, not many people and all that, that they did that. And I wondered why she was so pushed into.

Uh, to the margins, you know why she was demeaned on the one hand in, especially in the Orthodox tradition, Eastern Orthodox tradition. She’s like the apostle of apostles. On the other hand, you know, she’s at this. And neatened prostitute and it just didn’t agree with me somehow, the whole story somehow, I didn’t think that she was a prostitute and then some on the way, I also discovered the Gnostic teachings, the Gnostic gospels, and, and then Gnostic writings, not only the gospels and went into verse and I realized that she was also portrayed as in some of them as the favorite disciple of Jesus.

So what a fascinating person, right? At the same time on my own personal journey, I just don’t want to confuse anybody yet. I, I started to, because when I moved away from Catholicism, I started to look for other options. Like, you know, most people do one way and give up that original religion. And I started to move towards as a terror Kindle.

Um, and I started to be interested in what is now called tantric teacher teachings, but it had nothing to do at first with sexuality, but rather the teaching, but everything is conscious. Everything is divine. And I thought, wow, it’s very interesting because especially as sexuality is being portrayed by the modern media and for centuries, it’s very much the me, right.

And here sexuality is also a form of divinity and, and we actually can arrive to the expansion of consciousness, new one over divine, through erotic rupture. And I thought, how beautiful and how different from what we are being normally told, especially by, by media. And also, you know, we, men had very little sexual freedom, but men had more sexual freedom, but they were also not taught how to honor that sexuality.

Right. It’s always something dark in us and I think we have to uplift it. So that’s why I started to, you know, Do this investigative work in my book, the other goddess, how to uplift it, why we are being told that such an integral part of who we are is so dark. And I just guess just to, just to say, I, I know that there’s a dark part to it because there’s a dark parts to everything, right.

But why do we have to focus on this dark part? Why don’t we learn how we can uplift it and honor this in a way that honors us and identity and the spirit within us.

[00:10:36] Alex Tsakiris: Great. So would you say that that’s more or less the main thing that you want people to take away from the book? I mean, the book is written.

For who I know women will connect with the book because it, it kind of is offering a re interpretation, probably a more accurate interpretation of what that feminine sexuality that we all understand. I mean, we all understand intuitively that there’s something about life and death with that feminine energy.

And we understand that sexuality is tied into that in a way that, you know, scares us, especially for a man, but at the same time, intrigues us drives us. Um, is that, how does that connect though with this experience that we’re talking about before of being that young woman in a Catholic church and, um, military, uh, communist Poland and seeing.

There’s more, there’s more for me on a very practical level. And then more for me, maybe on this spiritual level and more for me on this sexuality, who I am level that are all trying to be defined. So you’re wrapping all that together in the book, but is that what, how do I distill that down from the book?

[00:12:04] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: Okay. So I also partially it is also, especially at the end, when I tried to bring it all together, it is about getting out of the matrix, so to speak you not realization, but we, everything, this different paradigms, which are imposed upon us and it is basically, it should be a choice. You know, it should be almost as a spiritual duty to take the, I say at the end of a book, you know, 10 make a turn.

Make a turn now. And I was actually thinking about this film in old film at midnight express. Do you remember this? And when he’s certain moment, when all prisoners walk in one direction, and this is what. And we’ve done it for millennia and it’s certain point something clicks in his mind and he starts walking the opposite direction.

And I think this opposite direction is actually the direction of spirituality, of true spirituality, of not allowing anyone to brainwash us, to, to explore, you know, to, to go with your spiritual experience. Even if sometimes, you know, it can be scary because my experience is that it’s completely rewired me.

And I was said at the beginning, after the initial ecstasy, you know, I felt like, wow, now what am I going to do? Now? Everything that was important for me is less important now, you know, and I’m an ambitious person there used to be. And now I, I’m just kind of going on this different path, but I think that we are all, especially in times like ours, you know, called to take the different term.

[00:13:35] Alex Tsakiris: So, you know, you just kinda mentioned there, but people who check out the book will find that you’re, you’re very, self-disclosing very open and somewhat in some ways that will be surprising the foot cause a tiny bit spicy. I mean, you know, and what did you think about doing that? What’d you think about presenting it that way?

And I think that in a way I took that as a statement about everything you’re saying that you can talk about your sexuality along with being a religious scholar along with being all this other stuff. And you can just kind of put it out there in a kind of unapologetic way and also in a way that doesn’t seem to be spun.

You know, it just seems to be kind of, this is it. This is kind of what happened.

[00:14:25] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: Yes. Thank you. Thank you for sending it’s true. It doesn’t mean it’s actually the writing of it was easy, but publishing it. And now it’s like all out of that, you know, this is Joanna and okay. Experiences it, you know, it, it, it was not so easy, you know, I w I’m still sweating when I think about it, you know, because there can be a reaction to that.

Can it be a backlash, but when at the end of the book, I say, megabit turn, uh, I’m sharing my term, right? Like, so is, I, you have to be honest with your spiritual experience. And this is what my spiritual experience was with relationship to, uh, in relation to sexuality. Right? Although I had other experiences not related to sexuality, but the ones that I focus in the book, just for the purpose of the book, you know, do focus on sexuality.

So I thought. I have to be honest, I’m asking my readers to be honest and completely honest. This is, you know, um, as naked as possible, but in this part of the book, which is the first part of the book, that’s why in some interviews, I said, if you just want to know about Mary Magdalen and not about my experiences, go to part two, right?

Because the part one can shake you a little bit. If you, if you don’t want to go there. But I also, for many years studied tantra with tantric scholars, with Sanskrit scholars and in the book I described one of them. Uh, regular meetings, but I had a Sanskrit scholar who by the way, is also a Catholic priest.

Isn’t an interesting and PhD in Sanskrit, but completely into tantra with a Buddhist monk who escaped the bet. And now, because he’s the on-set successful center in Melbourne, Australia, and, and w when other independent Swami from, uh, from other lakes in, in, in Australia. And we were going, you know, through this tantric test texts, which is the most controversial of all of them from, um, 10th century, uh, Indian philosophy who actually wrote it down.

It’s from tantra LACA, which is the light on time, on the tantras and chapter 29. He’s about to call our ritual, which is the sexual ritual in tantra medic controversial ritual. And, you know, and as I was sitting by this man, and we are just, you know, everything was proper. We are proper scholars, nobody, you know, nothing happened.

And I felt that it was so lifeless. You know, like this, we are just reading this and it just, and it’s in cottage. So it’s difficult to understand because you know, the philosopher himself didn’t want people just to go over and do it. Right. Cause you, you should be, you know, have a focus on expansion of consciousness when you perform the ritual.

And I thought it was so lifeless, you know, and this color and it just so dry, you know? And I, and I thought, no, we have to, uh, I’m all about spiritual experience. Right. So I didn’t want to write this kind of book. That’s why it’s not an academic book. I wanted to write a book that is a easy read, but it’s entertaining and it’s completely honest.

So in this part of the book, I do actually describe my own tantric experience, which was very spontaneous. And I call it an act of grace because I’m not a tantric teacher. So I don’t even know how to repeat this experience. It just happened to me. But according to the tantric scriptures, I fulfilled the criteria, you know, at this particular moment.

So I just met with a man and, and, and I was just getting over as significant relationship and, you know, and it just happened and it was a mind blowing experience. You know what happened? Actually, I felt. And so did he, because I can’t, according to this tantric teaching a woman is a conduit for the energy to move.

And then the energy spills on the man. And he was just, fortunately, he was a spiritual man, so he knew what was happening, but my whole body was act back to the top. And I felt the movement of the energy from my body. And some people ask me if, if you don’t mind to be a little bit graphic, how do you know that it wasn’t just an orgasm?

And I said, because it was a conscious energy, like I would feel that something like in tantric teachers teachings, they talk about Kundalini energy, anything like that, you know, GFE stuff, and then you feel it. And it just something at the, you know, it wakes up in you. It’s completely conscious. It is you, it is like your highest self, but it’s you that you even didn’t know, you know, but you have, and it’s conscious and it starts to move through your body energetic.

And, you know, it first blew up in my heart and this is when I reached up and spilled on the man. And he was just like, wow. Right. And then, you know, it went right to my forehead and then it just posts in a very intelligent way and decided to. Like in one particular direction. And it was an experience that lasted several months when I actually couldn’t almost function because I actually didn’t see the material world.

I saw like particles and energy around me. And they mean time. I had to like finish my PhD and so on. It was like, you know, it was completely unreal because I was transported somewhere else. And I was given this beautiful vision, I think, of a energetic universe really. Right. So, but it did happen for sexual experience and the, and just like it was described, you know, in, in the script.

But, uh, so I felt like I have to share this kind of experience. Otherwise, people get this kind of Neo tantra, you know, what do you do? You know, say some mantras, do some breathing director. I don’t know. It’s sure you can try it. Or, you know, we get this dry academic text then, you know, even, even if you are an academic, like me, I still felt like, you know, like that it’s supposed to be a re erotic rupture that takes you to, you know, higher consciousness.

And this is just like, it couldn’t be more boring, you know, but I got them excited about it. So I felt that the only way to actually do it differently it’s to share my own experience.

[00:20:43] Alex Tsakiris: Great. Brave, brave, brave to do that. But, but here is, this is such a great point now, because now we’re going to talk skeptical.

Uh, this is the fun part because I’m with you. And I think that’s again awesome that you can share that. And I think a lot of people can, can find benefit to that cause you’re right. The Neo tantric thing just gets so played out in one way or another, or just, Hey, here’s a way to hook up with somebody in a new way kind of thing.

And, uh, and, and you’re really, obviously you’re reaching for something much more than that. And, uh, and as you say it, it was spontaneous. It isn’t, it even wasn’t like you were sitting there, you know, just make trying to make it happen. It more, you were putting yourself in a position where it could happen, but here’s the skeptical part.

So we’ve had this nice email exchange and I’ve been sent you this survey and you were nice enough to answer the survey. And one of the questions was. Religion and you chose the answer. My favorite answer, unnecessary intermediary. And I think that’s what it is. Right. So when you were that girl, that young woman in, Poland, and you’re looking at the Madonna and I didn’t realize she was like the Saint of Poland and she’s got scars on her face, you know, and she looks very, very troubled, you know, isn’t it interesting as a whole culture, a whole country to take on why was that who you would adopt, but anyways, that’s it?

It is. But what do we do with the fact that it’s unnecessary? If it truly is unnecessary, we can process that in a couple of different ways. One, you. Personally as this might not be necessary, or it might not be the way I heard you say it in the story, because on your website also, there’s this nice little mini documentary that was done about your immigration experience in Australia.

People check it out and it’s great. But I saw that as kind of a personal challenging of is this necessary must I saw for her like the Virgin Mary? No, I can do more as a woman. I’m intelligent. I know I’m smart. I can go. I can learn. I can go to Paris. I can go to all these different places. I can do things.

What an awesome thing at the same time. I wonder if you, how you process the kind of challenging that necessary newness on the institutional level, because if we’re going to really tear that down, What is necessary about Catholicism. If we look at all the nasty, horrible, evil things that have been done by that institution, and now we’re going to open up the possibility that they’re not necessary in order to connect with the divine, that has huge implications.

So that I think is kind of the starting point, but you know, where I’m coming with, the next part is what’s necessary about tantra, but to get there, I want to start with, you know, isn’t that your answer, your answer, you gave the right answer. In my opinion, what is religion? It’s an unnecessary intermediary.

How far can that take us?

[00:24:10] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: Okay. We don’t know it’s as far as a human and divine potential within us. And I think what it takes it’s really, I’m not as. Interested in dismantling any institutions. I think they will die of natural death. You know, if we do not give them energy, if we do not support them, you know, they will die of natural death.

But I think we have to focus on that on individual, which if enough individuals focus on it, it will become also a collective spiritual journey. You know? So you have to, we all have to be absolutely brave, you know, wherever the spiritual journey takes us. And, and, and, and we just, we just go there and then we realize, you know, that what we’re taught is not true.

And it was not easy for me. You know, I was brought up as a good Catholic girl, so just going against it, you know, it was going against every fiber in my book. You know, and especially that I started at the Pontifical Institute and I was everybody’s favorite, you know, was this smart Catholic girl. And, you know, everybody loves me.

I had a fantastic experience as a student. You know what I mean? Like it was like all the doors were open. If I stayed that, you know, I could go to one regret I have is that I didn’t go to the Vatican library, you know, because I would have this kind of opportunities, you know, to study in the library and see what’s actually there.

So it wasn’t easy, but then it was another realization, but it happened because nothing to do with tantra when I was sitting in a church and thinking like, you know, I am a CNR, forgive me. And I think I had this. No. Why do I have to start from this center point of view? You know, what, if I am a divine being, you know, who wants me to be the sinner and that’s, you know, in, in, in, in Gnostic gospels, I think it’s in the gospel of Mary Mangala.

When I think Peter asked a teacher, tell us about the scene and the teacher, Jesus says various no scene. And when he explains what he means by that, right. We just did with the consequences of our choices basically. And so. This getting away from the institutions for me is an individual act of Supreme spiritual rebellion.

And it enough people do this. The institutions will not survive. Right. So I’m not,

[00:26:25] Alex Tsakiris: but come on you, you don’t, you you’ve written a book about Mary Magdalen. Why do we, why by propping up these different figures within this phony institution, how does that help us? I mean, if it’s purely a, a kind of metaphor, a story that we can use, uh, great.

But it, it always becomes more than that. It always like in the book, when you’ve been talk about other goddesses like ISIS, you’ll talk about, and then you’ll say, you know, even the early Christian fathers of the early church, couldn’t dismiss it again. We’re propping up what. We either have to, it seems to me like we either have to bring down the scaffolding and bring it all the way down and build it back up and say, okay, what is the reality of that history?

How are we supposed to understand it? And then build our understanding of where you’re jumping to the end and say, divinity is everywhere. It’s, it’s, it’s at the tip of our nose, it’s in everything, it’s on everything. So then I think the question becomes, how do you wind up to be that young woman in that church individually, but collectively, how do we all wind up being that person in that church?

Because we all are, I mean, these institutions are heavy normous influence. I was brought up in Greek Orthodox church. I looked at the same kind of iconography, uh, the incense, you know, go kiss the father’s hand and get. Uh, mind control. I mean, if we’re really going to be honest about it, that is mind control for a six, seven year old kid.

Don’t we need to it’s it’s one thing to say, gee, if we don’t give it any energy, it’ll die. It’s been quite for thousands of years and it hasn’t stopped.

[00:28:21] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: I, I completely get your point, but I think we are all collectively evolving spiritually. So if we take each of us, takes a different turn than there is no chance for them.

And you say, and it’s a third question that I actually didn’t consider before why this class, you know, Mary Magdalena, which is part of the Catholic routine or Christian routine. But I wanted to say that even I see her as she was just framed, you know, it’s a particular, a particular archetype and they frame her in a particular way because she was somehow dangerous.

And I think if she’s dangerous, perhaps we can learn something from her. Do you understand? She, she, I believe that, you know, whether historical she’s historical or not, she’s an archetype of some particular expression of walking away from brainwashing, you know, and in Gnostic writings, she’s the one who knows like that.

But, you know, Peter represents, you know, the church and all corporations, right? Like he just says Peter in his bed and, and, and, and he doesn’t understand, you know, why she’s favored by, by the teacher. And, and, and she represents for me. And she represents for me this walking away, like she, she didn’t build the church the way Peter did, or Paul did.

She just went, she just went to the wilderness, or, you know, I have my own theories, which I just enjoyed exploring, but she’s really about noses about. In a knowing, you know, exploring your divine potential. So that’s why I felt like, so I’m not buying into the Catholic or Orthodox Merrimack valley. And I said, what is architecture?

We suggest, and for me, she represents this rebellion against the structure

[00:30:05] Alex Tsakiris: and that’s fine. That’s great. And I think the archetypal metaphorical, you know, Joseph Campbell kind of you’ve referenced in there kind of thing. Hey, awesome. And that can be fulfilling to you, you know, spiritually, and maybe you can inform and motivate other people, but at some level there’s a, there’s a truth there that underpins that, that has to be understood.

I think before we can go any further, you know, one of the things we’re kind of bouncing around about kind of an, I was halfway kidding, but halfway serious buzz, you know, the Damien Echols in the Mitch Horwitz thing. So it’s like. The Damien Echols thing is kinda much more relevant to your work in a way that takes about four jumps for people to get to.

So Damien Echols is west Memphis, three, Johnny Depp gets him out of prison. They do this documentary and he gets released from prison. He was a guy who, along with two of his friends, they raped and then murdered these three little kids. These kids are 8, 9, 10 years old. They were convicted of that by two different juries.

They were never exonerated. That’s a misunderstanding people have, but they were released through a deal with the Arkansas. You know, I had them for 20 years and was unsure whether they could overcome it and another retrial. So anyways, but the reason why. He raped and killed those three little kids was revealed by Damien.

When the police interrogated them, the place do a good trick. This is the trick that police around the world do. They said, Damien, we know , you didn’t do this crime, but who did it? And the first thing goes, well, satanic, he goes, I think it was satanic because you know, they urinated in the kids miles and they did some other things which no one knew about they hadn’t released anything.

So he’s kind of like all good police detectives are looking for someone to give him information that implicates himself, which he did, but I’m kind of diving the ground. The point there, the reason that he chose to murder this eight year old kid and to perform this sex act on him was because he was, he was trying to do sex matters.

And this was the sex magic that his inspiration Allister Croley had laid out in his books. And he said the most preferred object of your sex magic would be a young boy, about eight years old. Right. That’s what he said. So the point then becomes, is that real, is that somehow connected to the same wisdom of the Hindu tantric tradition?

Or is it , just some messed up kid in Arkansas who reads some book. Well, we can’t really dismiss that way either because Allister Croley was for real about it. I mean, anyone who reads the Alister Croley biography knows he was doing all that stuff. And he was probably doing the stuff with kids and maybe it even went as far as Damien did, but they were doing that in an effort to tap into that same energy you’re talking about.

Now they’re tapping into it in a very different way, in a negative way, which raises a whole bunch of questions. But the question then becomes, is it necessary? Is that what’s necessary. He thought it was necessary. Alister Croley had convinced him that that was necessary ritual in order to tap into that energy.

So when we get into sex magic, it’s , very, very tricky and can go very, very dark.

[00:34:04] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: Hmm. No, that’s a legitimate question, Alex. Thank you. So, and it’s not easy to deal with, so, uh, it’s not necessary to do this, right.

There are methods. Each method has a dark side to this, and unfortunately I think it is. I don’t understand why people focus on this kind of methods you can achieve. Uh, expansion of consciousness, not only for tantra and not only for this, I wouldn’t even call it tantra, you know, previous kind of experiences, but there are other ways of achieving it.

But I see because there is a dark side to it. I do not explore it. I just very briefly mentioned about, you know, the dark side of this. I decided to cut it out, you know, because I think there’s enough focus on this, but what you’re saying, I don’t know enough about this man, but if he indeed did it and you know, and if it is indeed proved, then this is.

This is horrible misuse, you know, and I understand that this is a dangerous pop and that’s why some of us works like for example, Kula ritual and, uh, um, chapter 29. It was really written not only that it was within, in Sanskrit, which was, you know, obviously the educated language at the time in, , , in India.

But it was written in, in the coding because only people. Who were chosen by a evolve teacher would be allowed to do this.

[00:35:33] Alex Tsakiris: isn’t that start to sound a lot. Like that guy in the Vatican who wears that crazy hat and turns out a lot of his people like to re rape little kids to, you know, where, Hey, we have this super secret ritual that only the same thing in a Greek Orthodox church, you know?

No, one’s, it’s it’s basic mind control. It’s cult training 1 0 1 secret society, secret ritual, only the knowing do it. Unnecessary it’s everywhere. The divine is right there on the tip of our nose. Right? Why do we want to, why do we want to introduce unnecessary intermediary steps? Don’t we want to disintermediate, so you stumble across it.

If you do it like you’re doing, it’s good to be aware of it. I understand that. And I understand the power of metaphor that you’re bringing forward, but I guess I’m going to push back on. I think it’s a misstep to suggest that, well, you’re not suggesting it, but for someone to lead someone down a path that say, Hey, this is a shortcut, or this is like a good way to go.

It’s like misses the larger point of what you said. So beautifully divinity is everywhere in every. When we talk about it from one particular perspective of the divinity of sexuality, then do we tend to lose focus on the divinity of nature or the divinity of family or the divinity of just your ordinary washing the dishes?

[00:37:16] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: Oh, absolutely not. I just decided to focus on sexuality because there is so much darkness around it. So I said, okay, why don’t I address it? Why don’t I bring it into light? You know, because we cannot just endlessly push it to the side and let the perverts, you know, practices. And so on. I just said, okay.

So how can we look at in a positive way that if we can integrate it into our lives, but in no way, I suggest that people should practice some tantric rituals, you know, especially some dark ones. I didn’t practiced them. I just had an experience, but it was very spontaneous and I didn’t plan to do this. It just happens, you know, but maybe I studied it so much and I call it the act of grace and because I experienced it in such a beautiful way, I believe that I had to share.

You know, I chose to share it. Maybe I don’t have to, but that doesn’t mean that it takes away from anything else. I just couldn’t. I kind of, it’s a small book. I cannot write about everything, but you are there, right. You can experience divinity in any way. So it doesn’t have to be sexual way. I just say we kind of keep it in darkness because it didn’t mean us.

And I think that the secret powers, which we’re talking about, you know, they want to do demean the spot. Like they wanted to demean, for example, Martin Mandela and on other goddesses. And then the, my question is why there must be some liberating power in it and we have to claim it, but in our own way, not for darkness, but for love.

But you are absolutely right. I wouldn’t advise anyone, just, you know, use some sexual rituals, you know, to, to get high on consciousness because this is not what it is about.

[00:38:55] Alex Tsakiris: And I certainly don’t want to misrepresent your book because your book doesn’t come across like that at all. I made it as extremely positive and affirming and giving us new ways of understanding the human condition that is sexuality and female sexuality that.

There’s so much legitimacy to, you know, in the, in, in this cancel culture that we live in and in this transhumanist culture that we live in, which is denying the feminine as a, as a kind of roundabout twisted other twisted way. Right? So, you know, we can look at Alister Croley and twisting sexuality into it’s kind of the, the, the dark left-hand path of it, but then we have the other, and you even touch this touch on this in the book and your chapter on technology.

I don’t know if you go all the way to the transhumanist stuff, but maybe you want to speak to that because that’s another way of twisting and distorting. This sexuality is to completely to deny it and to do, you know, the rapper who identifies as a woman for 30 minutes. So he can set the. Deadlifting record and then identify as back as a man.

I thought that was well-played, but it gets at this deeper thing of what’s going on in terms of trying to twist our understanding of who we are as, as human beings.

[00:40:19] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: That’s an excellent statement, Alex. So perhaps I would maybe start explaining, but then I’m not talking about the women and men, I’m talking about masculine and feminine energies and I’m very union about it.

So I mean like we ha we both have, you know, masculine and feminine energies, animals, and anema within us. And I think that, so it’s not against men by any means, you know, I love men. I love my, you know, husband and so on, but what I’m saying, it’s about this, ah, civilization, and I don’t think it was a natural movement.

I think it was a control movement by someone, you know, that. But we moved too much in one direction, which is this kind of rational type of mind, you know, which is very logical, which is very cause and effect, which is very technological, which takes us now to trust humanism, which I think is very scary.

You know, I think trans humanism is something that we really have to consider nowadays and that we somehow on the way, and I think it was systematic, this other, which I call feminine, but both men and women had it form of intelligence of consciousness was consciously repressed by someone. And this intelligence shows us.

You know, unity of everything that we need in everything that you were talking about. And perhaps it’s completely different way of evolving without, you know, noodling in your mind, which I think actually is completely evil. And it, it will, I worry that it may stop a spiritual evolution of our personally, I believe that spiritual practice can overcome anything, but it is an another obstacle.

Let’s put it. So I think that this form of intelligence, which unfortunately we call masculine, but I prefer to call it logical. Rational mind, which, okay. They gave us some, you know, things and tools and so on, but it’s extremely meeting and it’s not serving us anymore. And we are taking it way too far and we are forgetting the other form of energy would just, you can call it, go this consciousness.

Or some people are more comfortable with Christ consciousness, this more holistic way of perceiving things which focuses on spirit and the divinity of everything. And we left it behind. So part of the book is looking into this, you know, why, why, why all of us, whoever represents this, this other consciousness, why they were pushed to a side.

And I’m not saying even with all of his goddesses were great or anything like that, but, um, they are represented often as you know, in the book as S. It’s kind of a guardians before different portals between death and life, between, uh, you know, evolution, you know, or going from transcendence, you know, very hard, the read, which is supposed to be a form of a portal that one of the goddesses, you know, is always portrayed with.

And most of them, including Mary Magdalen, when you think like we lost something on the way. And in fact, I think, but it was, uh, intentionally repressed and demean and we have to reclaim it because we are completely are going in the wrong direction. And, you know, trans humanism, I agree with you. This is a super scary stuff.

And, and, and I hope we will never go there, but I think it is probably unless there are some technological disaster, some war, some, some people hope for some solar flare or something destroys bad, but if it doesn’t happen, you know, we have. Uh, we have to deal with us and I think we have to use as spiritual tools.

You know, this is the only way we have to use that spiritual tools.

[00:43:57] Alex Tsakiris: You know, I got to say, I kind of appreciated , the, I don’t know, woman’s perspective in the book and that, and, uh, and really bring it because I get what you’re saying. You know, the it’s not just about women versus men and there’s the divinity and feminine and masculine, but it’s like no hats off to you for coming and saying, you know, Hey, really understand at this deeper spiritual level, what goes along with being a woman on this journey and especially from a historical perspective, because that’s what Mary Magdalen gives us.

And that’s what these other goddesses give us. And there is there you’re, there are differences. Okay. You know, there are differences and you’re talking about those differences and then you’re talking about how they play in this theater that we’re in. So I thought that was great. And I think when we contrast that with the transhumanist agenda and the technocrat agenda, um, there, it really draws clear the lines there and it, it there’s this cultural part of it that just kind of a, a joke that’s been going on in academia for the longest time, the wokeness kind of thing, and the political correctness thing.

And that’s one path. And then there’s this trans humanist path that I think really caught a lot of people by surprise in just saying, well, It’s about a T and you talk to boss, , we’ll have to talk about her. Uh, you know, it’s kind of a T it’s the matrix, it’s the, uh, you know, uh, cyborg kind of thing. It’s Elon Musk and you’re going to be neural linked.

It’s all that stuff is just coming at us. And at the same time, people are still recovering from the political correctness, woke stuff, and I wonder. What do you think about, about some of that? You know, I always kind of thought that the, you know, go woke, go broke. Thing is so true, but when a lot of people didn’t see is it’s also true spiritually go well, go broke spiritually.

You know what I mean? If everything is relative ism, if there is nothing to stand on, then how do you connect with that moral imperative that really drives spirituality, the decision to do the right thing, to be good, uh, that, that doesn’t come, that doesn’t work. If well, everything is relative, everyone hasn’t, there’s really no right or wrong.

And, you know, Machar, what’s kind of thing. Uh, you know, I just, what do you think about that? That wokeness.

[00:46:43] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: Well, eight is actually a very confusing topic because I have conversations with my mother who is, you know, obviously much more conservative about the fed is just way too much. Right. And I was trying to explain with the Hep, some of it.

Some of us and who probably disagree is that some people who are different in any way. So for example, if you were gay or, you know, you, or they had no voice in society, they had to pretend who they are. So now we claim the identity and I think that’s appropriate. And I think that sometimes possibly, and it’s just a matter of balance if, you know, they go maybe too far, because they said, you know, we were repressed for forever and now look at me and this is what we do.

And, you know, they try to shock you because they want the acceptance and, you know, and, and that’s appropriate. However, the whole thing about, and maybe there, and I think there is, I’m probably exposing myself for so much criticism, but it’s a, probably a small number of people that feel, you know, but they’re wrong person in the wrong body.

I have no experience with us, but from what I read, it’s, you know, probably a small part of population and the rest. Very skeptical and maybe very even shocked, or I don’t want to say sharp, but amazed in a way, like what’s going on. So again, I’m going to say something, but it’s probably very controversial, but I think a man identifying as a woman and participating in women’s sports and destroying it, I cannot support it.

[00:48:19] Alex Tsakiris: Why do we have to kind of put people to a test like that? I mean, it’s ridiculous to even say, oh, Dr. Joanna, what do you think about that particular issue? It doesn’t matter. I think the path through this is, as you said, is the spiritual path is that everything is divine.

So to the extent that you think God made a mistake with your body, okay, maybe God made a mistake with your body. We don’t know, but it’s still your journey. It’s your journey to figure out one way or another. It’s not the state’s journey. It’s not the medical industry’s journey. It’s your personal spiritual journey.

So all the rest of it is just bullshit. And I think that I I’m with you in terms of the way that it’s manufactured and the way that it’s elevated and put in our face and pushed to the front of. Consciousness and social issues is highly highly suspect because it just isn’t that controversial in the same way that it isn’t controversial to say that women were treated horribly by our culture for the longest time.

My you don’t mind generation immediately before my mother, she was very artistic. She was very creative. She had no options. Be a secretary, be a nurse, be a teacher. That was it. That’s not right. We don’t need a women’s studies department to tell us that isn’t right. We need. Uh, connection with the divinity to see it all around us and to see that she was leading a rich spiritual life and that she should be able to do that in the way that she thought.

So it does seem, and that is, it does seem manufactured. And it does seem to be primarily a social engineering control project, political operation project, rather than a genuine kind of thing. And my opinion,

[00:50:24] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: you know, I think that the perhaps is the same will happen for example, to Christianity, which means, you know, there is, uh, an, I don’t know, what’s wrong with a social structures throughout human history, but you know, we know of human history because it’s probably longer than, you know, academics and archeologists tell us, but it starts with the original why taught experience, spiritual experience, lack, you know, as people around Jesus, you know, which is experience of cross consciousness and so on.

And then. The structures, the social structures take control of it. And it becomes this thing that, you know, now where I’m talking like Catholic church or any church really, you know, and, or any religion, because, you know, I went through the journey, you can go to another religion and it’s better that, you know, and then just save a long enough and you see the same abuse.

Right. But the same brainwashing. But, so I think this is what happened probably with, uh, you know, what you put walk movement that’s there, there was a genuine, not. Desire to express, you know, I deserve to be loved and accepted in society like everyone else, just because, you know, I’m not in the majority sexually or with my sexual orientation or if my choices, I deserve it and that we have to respect, but then, and I completely respect it, you know, and this people imagine like being transgender or, you know, gay even like hundred years ago, never mind, you know?

So, so, so, so this has to be acknowledged if this people should have voice, but when somebody is using it, the way that Christian original teachings of every great being, you know, Jesus was Buddha or what are the avatars or, you know, how they embodied in, in, in human consciousness were used by, you know, this water called social engineering, which is actually very astutely put.

And, and the question is, you know, yes, it’s definitely used because it’s blown out of proportion instead of, you know, like individual respect for everybody’s differences, it turning. We had thing, which actually in my personal opinion is actually demeaning, the original impulse, you know, I just want to be loved them accept and it’s made into this weird social thing,

[00:52:39] Alex Tsakiris: th the other thing that I’ve run into, and I’d be interested in your perspective on this, because you have spent so much time within the religious academic community is that they have to kind of take part of the blame for this because you are so beautifully spiritually first. You put spirituality at the center and then everything comes out of that.

Religious studies has for the longest time, got away with putting spirituality in the backseat or not even in the, in the bus, you know, spirituality is like, The fundamental question, like another, the other survey question I asked you consciousness, and you went th you know, it’s a scientific question. You went again with the right answer.

Max plank consciousness is fundamental. Everything is consciousness, and it grows off of that. I remember a few years ago, I, this guy becomes, is such a good guy, a tantric guy to his interesting tantric studies and stuff like that. But he gets kicked around on this show for the one appearance that he made.

His name is Hugh urban religious studies at Ohio state university. Respected professor wrote a book on Scientology. And what I really picked on him about is he tells the now famous story about L Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology and Jack Parsons out in the desert doing the. Sex magic ritual, horah, Babylon thing to bring forth the antichrist and, uh, again, a Alister Kralik connection.

Again, that guy gets a lot of life, but the point is that the way that Hugh urban process did is the way that he is forced to process it by his religious studies department at Ohio state university. And that is, I don’t know if it’s true. I don’t know if there’s anything to it, but they believed it and that’s what’s most important.

And I’m like, no, dude, you got go exactly opposite. The first and foremost question is, is there some possibility that it is real in some way, does consciousness really exist? Does it extend beyond our being into this other dimension? That is the first question to ask. We don’t skip over that question and say, well, they believed it.

Let’s just process all this from some kind of sociology people get together and do things, stuff. Hasn’t how does religious studies get by with the such nonsense of dropping the ball and not being spirit first? Even if the, even if you’re atheist, you can be spirit first and you can say, well, dammit, I’m an atheist and I before, but before I can go any further, I have to establish whether or not.

My philosophical belief in the biological robot and a meaningless universe, there is no consciousness. I have to decide whether that’s true. So you decide if it’s true. It’s obviously true, but religious study seems to just kind of sidestep it, which seems completely ridiculous.

[00:56:02] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: No, that’s actually very, very fair statement and a question.

So I must say, I agree with you. It is very so two positive and negatives for academia. So I agree with you. It is extremely meeting and very early in my, even before I was an academic, I realized that academia and this kind of rational search, because again, academia is completely committed to this rational part of mine, logic, you know, ours, there are still Tarion and Patheon, you know, so it is, I will check, consider limiting.

And especially when you study religion and spirituality, it is very disappointing because they, they deal with only artificial menthol, irrational model. Right. They do not deal with real spiritual experience. Although nowadays it’s changing. I must say, you know, I also participate in some writing papers that you know, how to see spiritual experiments.

But I had a similar experience because academically, some years ago was writing about spiritual experiences as spiritual journeys, you know? And so on my people, you know, have to sometimes leave that house to have a spiritual experience as well. And, and, and I was like such a lonely figure. You know, I’m not that anymore because this people thought I was a competent.

You know, like, so, uh, Curry wise, it was a suicide because academia is all better mechanistic. You know, how many mentions, how many people you get, you know, in other people’s papers who go on academia.com and you know, this is, uh, and, and, and nobody was really interested when I was talking about spiritual experience.

And only some years later, I met a few academics who actually write about it, but not in a, again in a very meeting way, very often, right? Because it’s be original experience. We’d have to come back to what we discussed previously does at 15 into this kind of materialistic, rational mind frame. And this is how academics operate.

This is just another structure. It’s not a social structure, academia. It’s not necessarily, it’s definitely not about the pursuit of wisdom. It is more about, you know, categorizing things. Right. So other people who did presentations at this conference would say why people travel for pilgrimages? Because this visit visit has to be like in categories.

Nobody wanted to say, well, maybe they want a spiritual experience and we should ask what it is. But in a way, I thought that was a lunatic because I was insisting on something, but, you know, it’s just useless. So, so unfortunately these are very serious limitations of academia. And I realized that, and it was very frustrating for me.

One good thing about academia, especially in a, such a luminous topic, you know, uh, like spirituality is that they do check best sources. And when I started to look into the alternative traditions, Okay, I’m going to be controversial again. How many embodiments of Mary Magdalen can happen on planet earth at the moment?

And everybody gets a channel and everybody, and I actually was trying to go to democratic. So when people were, I think to me, I believe that I’m an embodiment of Marine Magdalan, but I had the, the others. Do you think it’s possible? And I said, sure, maybe, you know, we connect it to some consciousness and it speaks through you and they would get upset with me because they want to be the only ones, you know?

So I think, okay, so what academia good is extremely limiting because if there’s only one form really meeting form of consciousness, but at least they check our sources. So what academia taught me is discernment. You know what I mean? Like, okay,

[00:59:38] Alex Tsakiris: I’m a discernment,

[00:59:40] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: discernment, discernment, like, okay, I can. I own your spiritual experience, but you know, certain things, right.

Especially in my book about one popular spiritual teacher in this area, but I think he makes sad jobs sometimes. And I think like, honestly, you know, like, uh, maybe, maybe this route for you, but, you know, I hear I’m just going to be skeptical because, you know, I have no judgment, you know, because he didn’t do anything wrong, you know, he didn’t rip children or anything.

So if it works for you, but you know, honestly now, so, so, but yes, academia is extremely meeting and they do not even talk with not even over long stick, you know, spiritual experience. So.

[01:00:23] Alex Tsakiris: Well, you know, one of the strengths of your book is that you do go cross culture with the goddesses immediately. Yeah.

From the beginning. So talk about that. Talk about the other goddesses that come into play and how you play off the Mary Magdalene thing and how you find these other threads that turn out to be incredibly powerful, because when you do weave them together, it’s pretty hard to argue with the thesis that you’re kind of bringing.

[01:00:55] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: Actually, it came from my own spiritual experience again, because as you know, I was moved over to and when I went back to Mary Magdalen for Gnostic teachers teachings, and I just realized, you know, but there are certain, certain symbolisms, you know, but the same goddess is represent the same powers without a present with the same symbols that they’re all dressing red, but they use this.

There is a scholar, which is actually the image for transcendence and so on. And I started to ask myself the question, you know, could way basically, uh, be a metaphor or representation of is that different form of spiritual consciousness that we’re speaking about. Right because there are all of these similarities between Hindu goddess is verus for example, goddess, RADA, you know, whose portrait.

Exactly. But it’s rather, but actually as Sundari even more so who is, or even go this Kali, which is, you know, can be shared, uh, we can be redeeming it’s, you know, it’s most controversial of them. She’s also considered the goddess of, uh, you know, a tantric goddess. It, they have the same symbolism, you know, that you have the same color, the same, uh, the same elements around them.

You know, the same flowers, the rose, you know, the red color, this call, you know, the passage between death and life. So it, these similarities are very difficult to ignore.

[01:02:22] Alex Tsakiris: So you do cover that extensively, but you also cover other goddesses that people run across, uh, Aphrodite, ices. You, you weave those into the story too, which I think is powerful because you remind us why this archetype is an archetype and how it does speak to us.

And I go back to that other point, how it speaks to us speaks seems to speak to us differently if we’re a man or a woman. And I think that’s a, that’s a good thing. So men can kind of grow a little bit and women can kind of feel empowered a little bit that, Hey, this isn’t something new that we just cooked

[01:03:01] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: up.

That’s right. And I think, you know, I think that we are, you know, in this reality in which we live, we are called in polarities, but you know, some polarities are beautiful such as like being a woman and being a man, for example. Right. And, and you know, the beautiful energy and chemistry. And I talk also about the erotic connection in my book, that’s going to happen because of this.

And then I also don’t want to be the meeting here to men and women in the, whatever it is, you know, this male and female energies playing together. And I think we are here for a reason. In this particular way, and this polarities actually allow us to transcend themselves as well. You know, there are also tools, you know, and, and maybe not everything has to be so terribly serious.

And some of the gods, especially ancient Greek gods, I just said the reason they different interview and we agree to, nobody showed us how to be playful, you know, but we’re not particularly, you know, we’re responsible, but we’re really like spoiled celebrities, but you know, like an Aphrodite, I just talk about it where she lost her power and so on.

But, you know, they were very charismatic and, and, and they were, and they had lots of fun, you know? So this is part of this as well, and how to be empowered as a woman and how to be empowered as a man in a uplifting, you know, an attractive way so to speak. Right. So, so, so we can play with.

[01:04:26] Alex Tsakiris: Awesome. I love the way that you put that.

So there’s, there’s a lot to this book. The other thing people will find is it’s a beautiful book. I mean, just looking at it, it’s just the art, I think you can see on the cover, but then even in the pages, you know, are done. So what, what do you think about beauty as we do associate beauty more with this feminine energy, what was your thought in making a book like this that looks like this

[01:05:01] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: beauty is very important for me.

I think I’m kind of naturally, and it’s not even an intellectual choice. I’m naturally in to beauty and I see beauty in many things, you know, so even in, we have a very small garden and you know, I’m not, I see beauty everywhere. So that’s very important for me. And that’s part of the reason why. Uh, and I think beauty is a form of transport.

You know, as long as we, again, do not demean it into some special attributes. So, uh, so when I was writing this book, I, when I was writing this book, I wanted to be very readable, you know, so I didn’t want to write the academic book for many reasons. And I want, and I hope for this, that, you know, it will be very pleasant reading because I associate beauty also, not only as translators, but also essential plus.

Right. So I hope that this book would be that. And as far as for COVID, I want to thank Shiloh Sophia, who is an artist from California, very prolific artist who, you know, offered her painting for his book. And I actually, you know, was looking at different paintings. And then I was in meditation and I actually asked the book, what face would you like to have?

And, you know, and I reached out to several artists and you know, this one came right through and I actually have gave Shiloh, Sophia, you know, different paintings, which one would you be at? You know, be willing. And she said the vet one. And I thought, okay, so the book wants to have this face, you know? So I decided it’s not me anymore.

It’s you know, now it has its own life. It’s almost like a child, right? It’s cause it’s alive and it wanted to have this beautiful face and this is what it is. So I think beauty is very important as a form of transcendence and spiritual experience. You know, Plato also wrote about it in his dialogue. It doesn’t have to be called kind of Apollonian beauty and can be also a form of central review.

The experiencing with consciousness is divine in simple things in life. You don’t just like being in a garden or, you know, making off of someone, you know, that matters to you.

[01:07:07] Alex Tsakiris: How wonderful, how wonderful. Okay. So w. Other thoughts about the book stuff that we haven’t covered in. And where do you plan to go from here with it?

Do you have another book in mind? Are you working on something else?

[01:07:22] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: No, not at the moment, because at the moment I’m just enjoying the process and that’s the whole writing of the book was a form of liberation for me, because I realized as I was writing this book and decided to write it this way. But a as you mentioned, it is full of self exposure in a very intimate part of your life, my life, but also, you know, that I was a complete slave to social engineering before, because I, for all my life, I was completely obsessed with work, my academic friends thing, and I was also a part of the literature.

Kind of elite, you know, because they like to call them since like that. And they fought, but I completely lost my mind as well. Like my academic colleagues. And then I decided I just don’t care anymore. You know, that’s my expression of my freedom and of my spirituality and my spirituality, spirituality looks like that, you know?

And it’s not, that has to look like, but it’s just my experience of it. So at the moment, I’m just enjoying the process. Like, you know, this interview, I think after that, I will take a break, you know, because I need some rest. And if I write another book, it probably would be about conscious. About this other form of consciousness.

Right? So, because it just kind of naturally evolved into this, but could not be a part of his book because you know, it’s just a different book.

[01:08:46] Alex Tsakiris: Well, in so many ways, you’ve written the beautiful, beautiful book about consciousness, because that’s, that is ultimately what it’s about. Um, our guest again has been Dr.

Joanna Cueva, the book that you’re going to want to check out the other goddess. Ben. Awesome. You know, I loved every part of this. I loved talking with you beforehand, connecting, studying it, thinking about it. The book was, it really sent me on a journey. You know, I remember I was just mentioning to my wife.

She goes, oh, what, who are you interviewing? I got this woman who’s academic written, a book on goddess has got goddess energy or goddesses. And she’s like, she perked, perhaps she goes, oh God, I like that. You know? And it just, even that little bit though, Connected me with that divide that is there, that because we live in a male dominated culture back to the kind of reality of the wokeness kind of thing, which we did need wokeness in a way let’s, we’re both saying that, you know, we can’t deny it is that men especially can really benefit from this book because it, it does in a very genuine way, ask you to look at a different perspective in a different way, in a way that, that you do have a way of, of kind of getting there with some of the things that you mentioned that, you know, we have heard about before.

So that’s wonderful.

[01:10:18] Dr. Joanna Kujawa: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I’m so glad you enjoyed the book.

Thanks again to Joanna for joining me to dance kept co the one question I tee up from this interview is. How do you understand this relationship between sexuality and spirituality? And isn’t it. Awesome. That she’s written a book about this. I think it is awesome. And I think her point about. How we’ve let darkness.

Dominate the discussion of sexuality. Is really an awesome, awesome point. There I’ve answered the question, which I usually try not to do, but now I went ahead and did it. What’s your thoughts on it? Let me know best place. Skeptical forum. I wish you all would come over there. It’s getting pretty lonely.

Until next time, take care and bye for now.

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