Mark Gober, Standing For Science and Liberty |535|

Mark Gober understands the attack on science from a Silicon Valley venture capital perspective.

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This time on skeptiko.

Clip: Is your relationship with my client entirely platonic. It’s not your relationship with my client. Mystery sex with her every time you met didn’t you he’s badgering the witness. You’re

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That’s Jim Carey from the movie liar, liar. Where a lawyer is cursed with having to tell the truth. You’re going to hear more from Jim Carrey and just a minute. And you’re also going to hear. How there’s this direct connection between lying. Telling the truth, truth, seeking and Liberty. .

[00:00:37] Mark Gober: Liberty is eroding at an alarming rate.

that’s today’s guest, mark Ober talking about his new book in end to upside down Liberty

, and more generally talking about the situation we find ourselves in today. Now I don’t want to go too traumatic, too conspiratorial. Cause that turns off people. But. We do go a little Nazi on this one. (-)

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[00:00:59] Alex Tsakiris: But sticking to the Nazi parallel. Cause it’s easy. We’re burning books now. When you’re banning people, de platforming people, people who have PhDs have a long history of publishing in peer reviewed medical journals, and they’re pulled from all the platforms

[00:01:20] Mark Gober: Everywhere we look there is an ideology.

And if you don’t agree with that ideology, whether it’s medically or politically or anything, you’re a conspiracy theorist, you’re spreading dangerous misinformation, which are, these are. Anti-scientific ideas, the exploration of science or anything in the world is to explore and to explore many different theories.

And right now there’s less and less of an inability to do that. One of the things I looked at in this book is the impact of mind control, uh, propaganda brainwashing through multiple venues. So mainstream media, but also through social media and tech. Because if we think about the way in which we view the world and the way, the reasons that we have opinions about the world are informed by what we personally experienced, which is very limited and what we’re told.

And that comes about through social media, the news books we read, and if what we can research outside of our own individual experience is being limited intentionally where certain ideas. Now we can’t talk about that. That’s going to be censored. That’s going to be shadow banned, where you can’t see it as easily.

Then there is a capacity to alter consciousness on a mass scale.

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I know, shadow banning censoring, yada, yada. But if you’ve been around this show for a while, you know, that the origins of the show are really with the frontier science people, I’m talking about people in Paris, psychology. In near death experience science and after death communication, science, reincarnation science. I could go on and on all the people who have pushed back against this crazy. You are a biological robot and a meaningless universe, and you have no connection to anything more.

We fought that battle. So why aren’t we battle tested? Why aren’t we, the first ones?

To stand up in sound, the alarm about where this ship is headed.

[00:03:08] Alex Tsakiris: And to a certain extent, I guess the reason I get so hyped up about it is that if we can’t call it from what we’ve seen in the last 10 years in the frontier science consciousness community, if we. We were there. We were the frontiersman arrows in the front and arrows in the back.

[00:03:42] Mark Gober:

I hear you, Alex. I think it’s that there seems to be. I’ve noticed not only in the frontier science community, but also in the spiritual community and the way that I look at it at the highest levels that it’s perhaps an inability and an unwillingness to recognize evil and the hiddenness of evil to say, well, I don’t see how that could happen.

I can’t understand the mechanism for how someone could do that. Therefore, no, it must be the we’ll take the benign explanation, which is that it’s just that people can’t shift their paradigms, which is part of it too.

Uh, divide. Uh, divide between those who can see or at least contemplate.

The hiddenness of evil. And those who can’t. Continuing with this clip

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[00:04:25] Mark Gober: , there are probably scientists out there who just can’t ship the paradigms.

They’re not part of a PSYOP and they just are. That’s how they are. But this seems to be systematic the way in which there are, there are six Sigma statistical results. Dean Raden talks about this in his book, real magic, which was endorsed by two Nobel prize winning scientists in the categories of telepathy, remote viewing pre cognition.

And psychokinesis, that means the odds against chance are more than a billion to one, meaning in any other areas. That’s a real phenomenon. And yet, if you talk about psychokinesis, if I talk about that to my professors from Princeton, they’d probably tell me I’m crazy. How does that happen? There there’s something there’s a, there’s a suppression going on.

I would say that I’m probably more open to this because of my professional experience. And maybe you have a similar experience. Alex. I saw stuff. I saw corruption firsthand in a way that was very damaging to people’s lives. So I worked a lot with intellectual property. I was in investment banking in New York first, which was more just traditional stuff, not in tech.

Um, but then I worked in the tech space where we worked with inventors at large companies and small companies who were challenging paradigms. So an invention, a patented technology is one that is both novel and non. That’s the legal definition relative to the prior art, everything that’s been done in the past, meaning that if you get a patent on something, you’re contradicting, you’re contradicting what the mainstream is doing.

And there’s a lot of pushback often. So you can imagine what might happen when you have some smaller inventors going up against big companies. What could happen, where the big companies who have lots of power can manipulate the system. So I saw it, I’ve seen the media manipulate things. I’ve seen the judicial system get manipulated all up and down, , the power structures.

So I’m, uh, I’m more open to it. And then the whole COVID thing happens. And it’s the same thing. A person has a somewhat benign observation that contradicts the mainstream narrative. They’re booted off YouTube. So there’s begins to be a pattern and. One has to recognize that not everyone is moral. I agree with mark on this one. People who’ve been in a highly competitive money oriented field.

quickly learn that not everyone can maintain the rural compass, but secondly, not everyone wears their moral compass. Like our risk botch.

the snakes in suits thing is real. But what if it’s more than that?

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[00:06:49] Mark Gober: And at a spiritual level, this could relate to dark forces. , that’s how I look at it,

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Okay, so maybe science isn’t in the best position to save us, but.

we can’t be saved. Right? I mean, maybe our political leaders will rise up and do the right thing. ,

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[00:07:04] Alex Tsakiris: , the politics of it that’s gone right. There is no real left, right? Red state Democrat that doesn’t really. Th the bill here. Right?

[00:07:14] Mark Gober: I agree with you completely. And it’s a super important point because there’s a paradigm that people are in of, well, if you’re not a Democrat than you’re a Republican and vice versa, and if you believe this, then you’re part of this political movement and it’s this very divisive mentality.

One of the things that I try to do in my book and ended upside down Liberty is to transcend that the left-right division and get it more to the spectrum of Liberty versus non Liberty, because really the left and the right have differing opinions on what the other party should be doing, which to me is counter to principles of Liberty.

And then that mentality becomes warped into an us versus them. And it, I think can warp our ability to objectively look at science because you might hear an opinion from. Let’s say if you’re a Democrat that, oh, the right wingers are saying, this is true. Scientifically, I’m not a Republican. I think Republicans are evil.

, and because I’m a good person, I can’t agree with that. Science. It’s like this, this weird work logic that removes objectivity from the situation. And I think it allows for greater mind control.

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So what should we do?

Maybe the first thing we should do is return to Jim Carey.

And take a good hard look at the reality of our situation.

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And you’re supposed to say, it’s all going to be all right. And you’re supposed to say, , whatever you dream can come true. And you’re supposed to say all those things, I do believe in manifestation power of that kind of stuff, but I don’t believe that any of it matters, Everything is divine and I’m that, I’m finding that ultimately.

The freedom from it is, uh, is something people are kind of hungry for in a way. They’re like, I don’t want to be me either. . , and I go, well, it great. Cause you never have been.

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I so love what Jim Carrey is saying right there. But I got to say. It doesn’t really hit me. Where I live.

Back to a final clip. From today’s interview with the very excellent. Mark Ober.

[00:09:12] Mark Gober: I want to go back to something you said earlier about like, you know, should we be changing people’s minds or are they on their own path? And for me, what I like to do is put information out and those who are interested might gravitate towards it. I’m not going to change people. And actually, I don’t know their karmic path or their spiritual path.

Maybe they’re not supposed to change.

[00:09:30] Alex Tsakiris: I just remember talking to a guy and I won’t mention his name, but . He got very serious and he goes, never get between a seeker and their guru. I’m like, well, I’ll take that one on myself. Yes, I’m going to get between a seeker and their guru. So if your guru is. , , any of the people who are peddling this plan, demic pedaling, just trust me, give me all your rights in all your liberties. And you’ll be fine. If that’s your guru, I will try and disrupt not physically, but intellectually. I will try and disrupt that connection. And I do feel like that’s my job, because I think the foremost value is one love everyone, but to tell the truth, and that’s what I think you’re trying to do. And that’s what I’m trying to do too. We’ve got to tell the truth.

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All right. Let’s get to some truth telling. Here’s my interview with mark Ober. If you like it, spread it around.

[00:10:30] Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to skeptical where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers and their critics. I’m your host, Alex scarce. And today we welcome back. Mark Gober to skeptical. Mark, as you may remember, is a very talented guy, investment banking background in Silicon valley and New York.

I mentioned that cause I always find. Super interesting. I mean, you will find mark to be intelligent. No doubt , the first book we had him on to talk about an end to upside down thinking very well-written even won a prize for it. But, uh, w you’ll hear through, out in this interview, I think, and the reason I like it is mark has his foot firmly planted in this world.

You know, making money, being successful, being successful in school, doing all those things. And then as you’ll hear, he’s kind of drifted off into this other world, this skeptical related world of consciousness and upside down thinking and his latest book, an end to upside down Liberty. So anyways, I just remind you, that’s what I think is so funny.

Talking to mark in particular, but people like mark who are accomplished in a lot of different areas. So I don’t know, I just kind of spun that out there, but mark, welcome back. Thanks for joining me.

[00:11:58] Mark Gober: Thank you for having me, Alex. I’m looking forward to this.

[00:12:01] Alex Tsakiris: So as I mentioned, Europe, the book a couple of years ago, all about consciousness, an end to upside down thinking kind of pointing out this ridiculous, this of consciousnesses and EPA phenomenon of the brain kind of stuff that is so entrenched in science and is maybe a little bit less entrenched, but we’re reminded that it still is entrenched.

And now you’ve followed it up with a book and into upside down Liberty. Tell us about the book. Tell us what is.

[00:12:36] Mark Gober: So it ended up upside down Liberty looks at the nature of government and the way in which society is organized generally. And what prompted the investigation in that area was really the whole COVID thing.

Um, starting in 2020, we, we saw that governments played a very important role in our lives. They told us which businesses were essential and which ones weren’t when we needed to be locked down and when we’re not locked down, et cetera. So I started to look into, well, what is government’s. How does the media play into that?

And ultimately what the book looks at is, um, the idea that the way we do government around the world is inherently threatening to Liberty, which is problematic, not only from a, just a traditional physicalist lens, but also from a spiritual lens. It’s problematic. So that’s it in a nutshell.

[00:13:25] Alex Tsakiris: So you’re making some leaps there that, uh, we ought to explore, cause I’m right there with you.

But I have problems explaining this to people. Number one, and number two, even kind of believing it myself in a couple of different ways. So let’s start with the point you made about the connection between spirituality and what you’re calling liberal.

[00:13:51] Mark Gober: Well, so this is, uh, a big leap for many people, because one has to believe in something other than scientific materialism or what some would call physicalism in order to even go there, which is this idea that consciousness doesn’t come from the brain. And that’s what my first book and my podcast and my second book were really about.

And that the idea that our identity is not our body, but rather our consciousness is our identity and the body is a vessel or the vehicle through which consciousness has an experience. So a lot of what I’ve done is looked at the science to suggest that that is true. So things like near death experiences, side phenomenon, lots of stuff you’ve covered on your show.

Then there are some inferences that we could make. If we look at things like the near death experience, um, Dr. Bruce Grayson and his new book after which talks about near death experiences and what he’s seen, uh, he’s from the university of Virginia, he says about 25%. And he says a quarter of, of near-death experiences include a life review.

And Dr. Jeffrey Long has said in the range of 20% of people have near death experiences in his database, uh, have a life review. And what’s the life review. This is an instance where a person relives his or her whole life in a flash, sometimes reliving the experiences through the eyes of other people and feeling the effects of his or her actions on that person.

So if, for example, for my podcast, I interviewed Dannion Brinkley who has had four near death experiences. And each time he had a life review, he had to relive the deaths of the people that he killed when he was fighting in Vietnam through. So he claims, and he also felt the pain of the child who would no longer have a father because he had killed the father.

However, in his later life reviews, after he had become a hospice volunteer, since the near death experience changed him so much, he got to experience what it was like to be the dying person, um, in the hospice and getting to see how he himself comforted that person. So that’s just an example. We see many other cases of this.

So if we combine that life review, we say that’s a real phenomenon, not just a hallucination, this idea that there are consequences to. Actions in life and we hold ourselves accountable. That’s actually one of the big things in the life review is that it’s not like there’s a third party judging, which is what many religions have kind of turned it into.

It’s actually yourself, which aligns with his idea of a unified consciousness that you’ve talked about so much on the show, but this idea of, of consequences to our actions and a moral imperative, as you often say that that’s. If we combine that with things like the research at the university of Virginia, over 2,500 cases of young children who have memories of a previous life.

Sometimes these are kids between the ages of two and five years old. Often sometimes the, the researchers are able to verify what the child said by finding something from this alleged past life, finding a person’s actual historical records, or sometimes even medical records. If the child has birthmarks or physical deformities that align with this alleged previous life.

So all that’s to say there’s evidence for reincarnation. So if there’s reincarnation and this idea of a life review, which is suggestive of potentially a learning process inherent in life, that there’s an evolutionary process, uh, involved in consciousness itself. That might one might infer that the purpose of life or part of the purpose of life, to the extent we can comprehend it is to evolve at the level of our consciousness to move toward a state ultimately of unconditional love.

That’s what many people come back saying, but there might be other more nuanced things that we’re trying to learn in any given life. So that is a long-winded way of saying that if we are to evolve, as I see it, we need to have Liberty. We need to have the freedom to be able to make our own choices as much as possible.

And ultimately the way I look at it is making our own choices as long as they’re not harming someone else. If we look at government government restricts that Liberty in here, So I will just pause there Alex and let you respond.

[00:17:45] Alex Tsakiris: Okay. Well, I don’t really have a response other than to say, I didn’t think it was long-winded at all.

It’s just right down main street in terms of my logical progression. I’m totally in line with you. And I think that that it’s the path that the data leads us towards. And that’s what you’re saying to speak to the leap though, the chasm that you’re jumping, and I want to jump there with you.

I just want to kind of in skeptical fashion, pull back is the individual versus the collective, because a lot of the great wisdom traditions throughout time have come to all these same things and then have come back to the same point of saying yeah, but since it’s really is just about you and your journey in your soul, Ascension education evolution was the word you used, then maybe it doesn’t matter so much what all those evil doers are doing, which is what I rustle with too.

But I know you get what I mean. How do you handle that question?

[00:18:51] Mark Gober: I’ve been wrestling that, that issue myself. I mean, that’s a, it’s a tough question too. I think to comprehend with our limited human minds, there might be things that are beyond our comprehension that we just are never going to fully grasp.

But the way I like to think about it is exploring the notion of paradox. This idea that two things can be true at the same time, even though they’re contradictory, um, regards you’re on Buddha at the gas pump, always talks about this. The paradigm understanding paradox is one of the most important things in, in spiritual evolution.

Many of the great teachers say that. And to me, the ultimate paradigm. In, in reality, as I see it is this idea that we are one interconnected consciousness and yet at the same time, we’re individuals. So as Dr. Bernardo Castro says, it’s like, we’re, Whirlpool’s within a stream of consciousness. We are both the Whirlpool and the stream simultaneously.

How could that be true? How could there be a market and Alex, and at the same time, there’s no differentiation. And I think that’s the paradox that we’re forced to hold at the highest level, that there is no individual, but there is, there’s only a collective, but there’s not that to me, relates to this dualistic notion of good and evil, because at some level there’s only unconditional love one consciousness.

That’s what everyone talks about in the mystical experiences. It’s the same thing, or very similar ideas of a unified field. And yet there are things happening that are clearly contrary to unconditional love atrocities that, that many of us see all over the world. How could that be true at the same time?

So to me, there is, there is no evil and at the same time there is, and I’m reminded of. Uh, a little video I saw of Dr. David Hawkins, a spiritual teacher who was also a psychiatrist. So he was interesting to me because he deconstructed the ego at a practical level, but he talked about ramen and Maharshi the great Indian Sage who used to say things like the world that we see doesn’t exist.

And Hawkins said, he’s right at the highest level of reality. That’s true. Um, but at the same time, there are many people who aren’t living at that level of reality and they’re enduring great suffering. So what Hawkin said is that it’s a spiritual error to ignore the suffering at the level of this relative, where there’s, where there are individuals.

So to me, that’s how I reconcile it is that there is no evil, but there is, and we have a spiritual duty to do something.

[00:21:00] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. So I don’t know if people are following us, but now we’re getting into it because that’s a very Western approach to kind of take the deep, deep teachings of it and then say, yeah, but none of that matters because I’m a doer, I’m a Western guy.

I want to make it happen. Kind of like, ah, I’m not, I’m not, I’m a Western kind of person, but I’m also an American Yogi too. Have you ever seen the movie flip side by Richard martini? Interesting guy. He, uh, got very interested in the past life regression in between lives, , regression of a new. And he actually went to a weekend retreat where he and other people were going through a past life in between life regression with the Newton Institute kind of people.

But the anecdote that he tells that it always sticks in my head is this woman is regressed to a past life. And she remembers a life when she was in, , the Holocaust in the CA in a concentration camp. And she remembers being led to her death. She realizes that the showers aren’t showers, she knows.

That she is going to die and all these people are going to die and immediately the thought rises in her. What should I do? Should I attack the guards? Maybe I should at least take somebody with me. You know, all the thoughts that I think so many people hear about these Holocaust stories, they all go, why didn’t they do this?

Why do they, you know, it’s like one that’s impossible. You know, people don’t realize how impossible it is, but the other aspect of it is hurt. She comes to the sense that I will stay with my people. This life may end, this life will end. I will walk into the gas chamber. I will be killed and this life will end further in her regression.

She remembers dying and remembers the feeling of empathy for the perpetrators, for the guards and feeling at that deep soul level that we’re talking about, that her suffering was over and their suffering had just begun. And they’re suffering to a certain extent would, would be much, much harder to unravel than her suffering of just ending this life.

I’m not suggesting that we let them roll us up and just destroy us with the plan. DEMEC that’s not my thing. I’m just kind of calling into question how looking at this from a spiritual perspective might cause us to really put first what you’re saying, which is, what does it mean to love everybody?

What does it mean to love, , Anthony Fowchee and bill gates and whoever else you want to hate on or, or in pizza gate, James, Ella Fontus and John Podesta. What does it mean to truly not agree with or support what those people are doing, but to realize that, you know, It is on some level, uh, not in our hands to administer the justice.

That’s cool. Come to them. Any thoughts on any of that?

[00:24:24] Mark Gober: Yeah, so actually in my second book and ends upside down living, I talk about 10 approaches for living from the spiritual perspective. And there’s a section on forgiveness and I referenced an interview that Rick Archer did on Buddha at the gas pump, a woman who was being murdered.

And there was a mystical experience that happened while she was being murdered, where the attempted murderer effectively had an awakening and saw what he was doing and realized, and it ended up letting her go. Um, but in that process, she felt she was able to experience his pain and was able to have forgiveness for him, even though he was murdering her.

So I think that aligns with what you’re saying. And I agree with you that there’s a balance though, that I try to hold and struggle with, which is accepting that reality of having empathy for all, even though. Acting in ways that are contrary to unconditional love. And at the same time maintaining boundaries and saying that this is not aligned with how I look at life and therefore there have to be boundaries.

So it’s not, uh, it’s, it’s less of a victim mentality. I think

[00:25:28] Alex Tsakiris: I like that. , how would that look like from the spiritual perspective and still holding our ground and saying, no, this isn’t right. We will not stand for this. What does that look like to you, mark?

[00:25:43] Mark Gober: I think it depends on the situation.

, and it depends on the nature of, of what the perpetrators are doing. So I’m going to leave that general in the general case because it, I think it depends in some cases it might be, for example, if there are medical interventions that you don’t agree. Is to say no. Or if there are policies that come down from government, that one finds in moral to say, I’m not going to do that.

And I mean, the extreme version is Nazi Germany, where the law was to do things that were horrible to Jews and minorities. Um, the law was something that many people found immoral in. Some people said no. And some people say yes,

[00:26:18] Alex Tsakiris: right? So the slippery slope thing though, right? I mean, there’s been a lot of analogies to every day.

We hear the, the, the parallels with Nazi Germany, Nazi, Germany it’s to a certain extent, it’s the thing we always hear. It’s like way, way too much play for, uh, Nazi Germany there. They deserve every bit they get, but we can spread the hate around to cause a lot of, , people throughout history that have done the same thing and have done it in modern history as well.

But sticking to the Nazi parallel. Cause it’s easy. We’re burning books now. I mean the new CEO of Twitter who just, you know, just came out and said, I’m not obligated by the first amendment. That’s not, I don’t have to do any of that. And you’re a Silicon valley guy. I know this stuff. I just interviewed a guy , from Google, , AI guy, and he says, Hey man, we got a trillion searches a day or some kind of crazy number like that.

He goes, well, we’ve got a scale problem. You don’t as a tech guy or close to tech guy, IP guy, you understand all the complexities that they’re dealing with at the same time, they are at the they’re at the heart of this evil in a way that we can’t quite pull apart. I mean, it seems to suggest that there.

Part of this system that could potentially be all that Nazi-ism, that we’re also worried about. And let me make sure I put a point on that. So people don’t think I’ve just kind of rambling around we’re burning books right now, today, essentially. Right? When you’re banning people, de platforming people, people who have PhDs have a long history of publishing in peer reviewed medical journals, and they’re pulled from all the platforms being YouTube, Twitter, Facebook.

For as long as we’ve been a country would be considered protected under the category of freedom of the press. You know, it’s just a different technology, but we would have always, always considered that we’re in different territory and that territory looks a lot like what we’re talking about here. So I don’t know how, you know, how far are we down that, that.

[00:28:42] Mark Gober: Well, first, I want to comment on what you said about Nazi Germany. I agree that it’s one of many examples and there are contemporary examples. We can point to that. Aren’t just discussed as much, but I like to mention it because it’s an extreme that many people acknowledge as real. Uh, but we shouldn’t forget the others.

Where are we on the spectrum of, you know, Liberty, Liberty is eroding at an alarming rate. I mean, I felt there was urgency to write this book and it’s not a comfortable topic to be talking about. And it’s, I’m sure many people will have differing opinions on what I’ve written. Uh, but I felt like it was necessary anyway, because of exactly what you’re saying, Alex, that everywhere we look there is an ideology.

Then there is a capacity to alter consciousness on a mass scale. And capacity to literally mind control and brainwash people. But from the skeptical lens, it’s a law it’s consciousness, manipulation. You are shifting people’s consciousness in a certain direction. And if all reality is just consciousness, what happens when many people put their consciousness in a certain direction, this gets into phenomenon.

Like psychokinesis the idea that mind can impact matter at a physical level. And that’s how I look at it is that’s my, one of my biggest concerns is that you could take good people, move their consciousness in a certain direction, and it can shape our world in a way that is not favorable.

[00:30:56] Alex Tsakiris: I want to pick up on a couple of topics you just mentioned, uh, mind control and the assault on science would be.

Two of the ones that I think are critical to kind of flush out here. But I got to start with the first one in that I’m really concerned about the way that, , this community, the frontier science I’ll call it community. You’re a board member of ion. So I should mention, and you’re kind of plugged in and you mentioned like Bruce Grayson, boy, I just interviewed Bruce Grayson and one hand fantastic.

Who can’t love the tremendous, tremendous contribution that Bruce Grayson has made. And those people at UVA have made, but at the same time, , wake the fuck up. I mean, I kind of really pushed him on. The conspiracy surrounding near-death experience. And you know, you can go and everyone can sit around in a clap hands at all.

Wow. You guys have done so much screw that you haven’t done anything. You haven’t made any real dent. You haven’t moved it. But what really pissed me off is to even suggest to Bruce that there is some. , conspiratorial nature to the, uh, sidelining of near-death experience to the, to the quote unquote, a skepticism about near-death experience to me that it’s been made patently obvious over the last 10 years, but the real Trump card on it is it’s now made even more obvious by what they did with COVID.

But if you can’t call it, if you’re on frontier science and you can’t call it. And, uh, you know, after I, after I interviewed GRA Grayson, uh, interviewed Eben Alexander. And he was at least willing to come a lot closer to acknowledging it cause he fucking lived it, right. He lived Sam Harris coming out of left field saying this guy is completely lacks any credibility.

Wally’s a neuroscientist neurosurgeon at Harvard medical school and Sam, Harrison’s a kind of a, nobody intellectually to be throwing stones. It’s not accidental. It is systematic. It is part of this mind control project that’s been going on. Part of the disinformation project that’s been going on forever.

And to a certain extent, I guess the reason I get so hyped up about it is that if we can’t call it from what we’ve seen in the last 10 years in the frontier science consciousness community, if we. We were there. We were the frontiersman arrows in the front and arrows in the back.

We should be the people that said, look, here’s how it happened back then. And here’s how it’s being amped up 10 times in terms of the co-opting of science, really the just complete assault on science. So I kind of covered a lot there in the rant, but I do want to kind of call out the frontier science people for not getting on board with the, with the conspiracy stuff.

Jesus Christ. Yeah. I’ll just leave it. I’ll leave it at that. I have to work though.

[00:34:03] Mark Gober: I hear you, Alex. I think it’s that there seems to be. I’ve noticed not only in the frontier science community, but also in the spiritual community and the way that I look at it at the highest levels that it’s perhaps an inability and an unwillingness to recognize evil and the hiddenness of evil to say, well, I don’t see how that could happen.

So I’m, uh, I’m more open to it. And then I saw the same thing when I started researching consciousness and I’m like, what’s going on here? It’s the same thing. They’re, they’re calling these people, pseudo scientists. And there’s tons of evidence to suggest that they’re actual scientists doing probably more rigorous science because there’s so much scrutiny.

And then the whole COVID thing happens. And it’s the same thing. A person has a somewhat benign observation that contradicts the mainstream narrative. They’re booted off YouTube. So there’s begins to be a pattern and. One has to recognize that not everyone is moral. I think most people are good. That’s been my observation, but some people are at the extreme end psychopathic, which is a psychological phenomenon in which a person doesn’t understand empathy and just wants power.

And at a spiritual level, this could relate to dark forces. Uh, that’s how I look at it, but at a more mainstream level that everyone can acknowledge psych psychopathy is a real thing, and most of us can’t relate to it. So one almost has to go into the mind to be able to try to understand it. And a lot of people, I think don’t want to do that, or they’re not, they’ve never done it before and they’re happy living their lives as is.

And I want to just close with one anecdote before I let you respond. A friend of mine well-educated , said to me when we were, when I was first getting into consciousness research, and I was sending a bunch of my friends, you know, the research I was doing and how it changed my life. Oh my goodness. Like there’s, there’s more to life than what I thought there’s actual meaning.

And he was like, mark, my life’s pretty good. And I don’t want to rock. So I’m not going to go down this road with you. I actually think you might be right, but like, I’m not going to go there. I think a lot of people are in that boat, especially when it relates to evil, because the other topics with consciousness they’re very comforting and some people will say, yeah, it’s comforting, but it’s just too much for me.

This stuff is, could be terrifying for some people. And they might say, I don’t want to do it.

[00:38:00] Alex Tsakiris: I think what you’ve said is just super profound and it directly parallels kind of the path that I’ve been on. And if we’re going to retrace those steps a little bit, So we look at again, our frontier science and I’m going to hold Bruce Grayson up as the punching bag again.

And he’s done all this fantastic work in bringing forth near-death experience. But when you push him and you say, Bruce, this has really been about consciousness all along and about science being built on this notion that you’re a biological robot and meaningless universe, and that has a purpose behind it.

And the purpose is people are easier to control if they believe that their life has no meaning. And even if there’s all this cultural push in the background in terms of religion, in terms of wisdom, traditions, and just in terms of human nature to say, well, I know my life, isn’t meaningless. That doesn’t matter to the mind control culture shapers.

You still play that game. You still push that button. Just like we see the fear button being pushed now, and you don’t stop pushing it. You just keep pushing it, pushing it, pushing it. That’s what was going on. That’s what I suspect. And I think you’re alluding to is going on with the, you know, near-death experience.

Well, we’re not sure, you know, this it, because it’s a direct assault on this idea, not just about the epiphenomenon of the brain, which means he goes, I don’t care about F not in the brain. I don’t even know what it means, what it really means. Is that they’re trying to tell you that you are meaningless, that you, your soul doesn’t really have a play in this larger game of your life.

And then I would tie that back to what you said about how science plays that out and how science wants to play the game. And they say, Dean Ray, God bless Dean Raden six Sigma result one after another, you know, uh, observer effect, you know, we’ll just put, uh, all that kind of stuff as , quantum Doug told me on the show, you know, a lot of people have gotten Nobel prizes for less but I’m digressing slightly because what I wanted to bring up also as part of this, and I think it has to all be laid out so that we can understand how the game is being played, because some of it is go along to get along in science, and this is the path of least resistance and we get it. And do I really want to sit down at that dinner?

I’m going to, with all my friends in the psychiatry department at university of Virginia, do I really want to feel bad that uncomfortable? That they’re all looking at me because I really came out and said what I really believed. And I didn’t couch it in all this careful, maybe kind of crazy middle ground kind of stuff.

Do I really want to endure that? You know, and do I really want to endure then going socially going to the club or going to. Whatever and having the same thing happen. But the other thing that I think is at play is the Stockholm syndrome, which is that, you know, these people have now been in academia.

They’ve been subjected to this for so long that they’re kind of happy captives within, you know, they’ve kind of been blinded to what their science has really told them. And again, the reason I keep bringing it up is because if frontier science can’t be the, the tip of the spear on this.

We’re in trouble,

[00:41:19] Mark Gober: I want to give a quick shout out to Dean before I respond to that, which was, which was important. Alex Dean has a new study out, which is to me, totally mindblowing, which shows that the mind.

Impacts the level of quantum entanglement and your listeners might not be aware because it just came out. So I just want to say that’s a new study. Of course it will need to be replicated, but this is game changing stuff would impact quantum computing and beyond. But with regard to academia and the scientific community on what, what should the frontier scientists be doing as you were talking, Alex, you reminded me of what I was asked once on a panel of, well, how do we get this message out there?

And one of the scientists who was on the panel with me said, well, we need to, we need to change the education system and get the message out there, which I agree with. And I was at my answer. It’s going to have to come through the media because there’s plenty of science and the message just hasn’t been amplified properly.

And the more I look at the media, the more I realized that’s going to be a challenge. So I do think it is important that within academia, there’s more vocalization of the stuff, which it requires bravery and it requires taking risk. People could lose their jobs. They might not get tenure. This is what I hear all the time.

So it’s when you have to feed your family, you have to make trade-offs and make, make tough decisions. So, I mean, I’m not in that position. So it was hard for me to say. Um, but I, I think it needs to come from all angles to get the message out there. And I’m just going to add real quickly being at Princeton.

I was so indoctrinated with materialism. I didn’t know it at the time. I didn’t know it until I deconstructed things afterwards. It’s deeply embedded into everything within the highest levels of academia. It’s, it’s almost implied. I mean, I was technically a psychology major, even though I started in economics and did behavioral economics.

Okay. I don’t remember talking about the hard problem of consciousness or acknowledging that we don’t understand consciousness and maybe it doesn’t come from the brain. It was sort of this presumption throughout everything in the psychology department and otherwise, so there’s this cultural rigidity which, uh, is going to have to shift.

And I don’t fully know the answer to it.

[00:43:20] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah, I agree. And so let’s talk about, , the book and it’s very kind of out front. I can’t imagine how this is playing with some of your friends and you do sit on these panels and you do talk to a lot of these people. They care what you think, but you also care what they think.

How was this very conspiratorial book? And I say, it’s conspiratorial. Cause it’s about conspiracy theories throughout the book is about conspiracy theories. The only problem is that they’re all true, you know, so we can call them that because that’s the common term. But how has this playing for you personally?

It’s not making your friends. I can’t imagine.

[00:44:01] Mark Gober: Well, we’re still early. The book was re released very recently and I haven’t heard from all that many people, I’ve gotten a bunch of really positive responses and it might be that some of the more negative responses I just haven’t heard from yet. And as the book gets out more, I’ll hear from more and more people.

But I can just say from having had conversations with people in my network who are much more mainstream. What I’m talking about is, is so out there, it is so contrary to the way they look at the world or things that they’ve even considered as possibly true. So I would imagine there will be pushback. Um, there was pushback with my first book talking about consciousness, not coming from the brain.

My second book, talking about living a spiritual life, given those assumptions. And now this book is saying we have to rethink government and acknowledge the reality of evil and conspiracy in light of all that. But from a spiritual lens, personally, I have to think, well, what’s, what’s my duty. Why do I exist?

This is my second bucket. Ended, upside down. Living is a lot about this. And part of the reason I wrote it, I wanted to share with people, , approaches that have been talked about throughout time, many great spiritual teachers, but also to hold myself accountable. If I’m really going to be on the spiritual path, then I have to live life that way.

, so when I look at, I mean, everything is a balance of risk and reward and I have to consider reputation. Damage potentially, um, on, on, from one perspective, from other than other perspective, people might really respect it, but I have to consider all, all sides of it. To me, the net benefit is far outweighs the downsides because we’re, I think in an extremely precarious situation globally, where Liberty is being eroded at an alarming rate, it’s disturbing to think about what could happen.

And I’m in a unique situation where I left my firm, actually right before the pandemic, I just, I just didn’t feel called to do it anymore. I didn’t know what I was going to do next. And two books have come out, but I’ve been in this situation where I’m able to research and spend a lot of time focusing on this stuff, meditating, really thinking about it.

And there’s a duty, I think, to share that with people, for those who are open, because we don’t know what the positive impacts could be. If even a small number of people shift their consciousness and this. Direction. So I often referenced the butterfly effect, which is a real mathematical phenomenon where a meteorologist changed one of his assumptions by a decimal point.

And his outcome ended up being vastly different. His weather prediction was different. So the analogy that people often use is a butterfly flapping its wings, mathematically speaking, flapping its wings in China. Mathematically speaking could create a hurricane in New York. So to me, it’s, it’s worth it from that perspective.

[00:46:36] Alex Tsakiris: Well, I also think kind of from a silver lining perspective, I’ve talked to a lot of people just individually that have made changes in their life as a result of the plan demic that are resets resets in a positive way. I know, like for me, in a small way, you know, Big into yoga. And I used to go to I’m now I’m outside doing yoga and I made a little sign, you know, come join me and do yoga with me right here, you know, and, and beautiful Cardiff and slotted beach and Del Mar where I live out on the beach.

And it’s like, I would never go back. I would never go back to being inside of the studio. And I’m trying to spend more and more time outside. I’ve talked to a bunch of people who said, gee, you know, this really forced my hand in terms of homeschooling and I homeschool and now I love it and I would never consider going back.

So I, I love you’re reminding us about the butterfly effect. And I also think there are some unintended consequences, very positive unintended consequences that have come from people being forced to reset and then having , enough of a spiritual core, like you’re talking about to say, okay, how will I reset?

Towards my spiritual goals. And at the same time in alignment with pushing back with what I see as some bad things that are happening to our culture, what do you think about the silver lining thing?

[00:48:12] Mark Gober: So I referencing my second book again and ended upside down living another approach. In addition to forgiveness I talked about for life is nonjudgmental ism, which is the idea that.

We can’t know at a cosmic level, why things are happening. It’s just way too complicated. We don’t have the helicopters perspective. It’s almost like we are walking through maze and all we see is what’s immediately in front of us and we can’t see what’s way ahead of us. But if you had this perspective of the one mind to broader consciousness, that’s beyond space and time, there’s more to the story.

, so therefore we can’t really judge things as quote unquote, good and bad because there are these potentially unintended consequences. Someone has a tragedy in his or her life, but it can lead to amazing things later in life that were not foreseeable at the time of the tragedy. And at, from the lens of spiritual awakening, people often talk about a dark night of the soul, where they have a horrible event.

And for me, I had one. So in 2016, when I first got into this stuff, I was listening to podcasts. I heard about, you know, spirits and, , just paranormal phenomenon that I wouldn’t have thought about before. , prior to. I was, I thought life was meaningless. Some things weren’t going well, professionally, like some deals weren’t going the way I wanted.

, in my personal life things weren’t going the way that I wanted. And you know, I’m such an accomplished accomplishment, focused person. And, you know, it was a tough time for me. Then I happened to stumble across these podcasts. My life shifted in a new direction, but I was probably more receptive at the time because I was in that dark night of the soul period.

And now it’s led to a very different life, which has been much more fulfilling over the last few years. So if you apply that to at the collective level, I see what’s happening right now as a dark night of the soul, whether we will come out of it as, as an open question. But I agree with you, Alex, there are unintended positive consequences and on the really positive side, if we do come out of this, and I think if some of these corrupt systems are collapsed or, and, or we’re able to build new systems in parallel, we could have a world that is potentially so positive that we can’t even imagine it.

And that’s what I try to hold in my mind.

[00:50:10] Alex Tsakiris: Let’s talk a little bit about the assault on science that has been this plan damage, because that’s one of the angles I’ve been trying to cover. Cause I don’t normally like to get into those kinds of topics or even current event topics. I try, although I really break the rule all the time, but kind of stay in my lane of science and spirituality.

But again, as I’ve kind of maybe emphasized maybe too much in this show, I see a direct through line between the attack on science that was parasite ecology, which, you know, both was, it’s hard to say who won there. I think in some respects, like you’re saying, Dean Raden definitely won, but in the larger sense, maybe he didn’t win because when they can sideline the whole thing and just ignore it, then, you know, did you really win?

But I’m digressing again because what I really want to talk about is. We’re at a whole new level with the assault on science. I just dipped into a little bit of the mask science, the COVID mask thing. And the reason I like to stay with the mask is it’s so much less controversial than talking about the virus and talking about the vaccine and all that, just the mask.

It’s just phony science. It just, I look back at the interviews that I had, you know, with Sheldrick and Raiden and Richard Wiseman and the controversy. That’s not even close to that in terms of big it’s so fake it’s like anyone should be able to see that it’s fake and our guard has been let down, or maybe our fight has been let down, but there’s just no meaningful pushback on just the most atrocious science that has come with this planned emic and the associated.

Decisions that are being made off of it. And that’s something you cover in the book, but maybe you want to talk about here at kind of that high level of assault on science kind of thing.

[00:52:12] Mark Gober: Yeah. Well, we see it with consciousness science. I saw professionally with some new ideas that were out there that were threatening to big companies.

We’re seeing the same thing. Now, if there’s science that comes out that is threatening to the narrative, which threatens those who are in charge of the narrative, whoever those people may be, it’s being shut out. So I’ve been trying to reconcile this too. And how do we deal with it and how do we, how do we even communicate with those who believe the narrative so strongly.

I’ve been in this position, like I said, where I’ve had the time to investigate and to look at what the mainstream is saying, look at their claims and then to actually look at some of these other studies and what the alternative people are saying, and to evaluate both, I can understand for those who don’t have the time to do that, if you’re just super busy with work and your family, and you just see what’s on TV and you see the headline from CNN who you’ve trusted your whole life and the New York times, and you just go with it.

You who, who, who you think they’re really going to lie to the world about something so big, it takes a lot to overcome that mentality. So it takes independent investigation. It takes a willingness to acknowledge the possibility of conspiracy and evil. And a lot of people don’t want to do that. Um, but the suppression is unbelievable.

It’s unbelievable. And in so many different areas of the pandemic, it which continues for me to reinforce the idea that there is something going on. It’s it’s not innocent, , because the suppression seems to go in wonderful. It goes in the direction of fear. You should be more scared of this and it goes in the direction of, we should take away your liberties as a result of that.

That seems to be the direction of the manipulation of science. Typically,

[00:53:52] Alex Tsakiris: I want to pick up on one thing you just said, and that is acknowledging the possibility. And it does relate back to the consciousness thing, too. It relates back to the little anecdote you told about your buddy who said, you know, nah, thanks mark.

Find the way I am, you know, by the way, do you want to come over and watch the ball game this weekend? Please. Let’s watch the ball game. I don’t want to think about anything else. And I think back from, to the total spiritual kind of perspective, We know that, that this spiritual masters and the yogis have told us all along that, that, that doesn’t change for people very easily.

And it only changes when they’re ready and you can’t shake somebody by the shoulders and say, wake up and see the science wake up and see what they’re doing to you any more than you can say, wake up to your divine, spiritual wholeness, you know, wake up to the it’s one in the same and kind of very interesting.

Way that if you given any thought to those parallels of this spiritual awakening and the, how many people do not, if we could, not how many people I can be I’m there. Right? I did not want to wake up spiritually. I was scared as crap of waking up spiritually because the associations I had with them, my life where my religious background of Greek Orthodox and the was scary as crap.

And it wasn’t positive, but it was like, I didn’t want to cut touch that, that lightening rod or that electric wire, whatever. But there is a parallel now I think between that kind of reluctance to go through a spiritual transformation and. That we see with people who we talk to and the normies and the people driving around alone in their car with a mask on.

And you want to just go say, wake up. And it’s like, there’s something much, much deeper that they don’t want to wake up to. What are your thoughts on that?

[00:55:54] Mark Gober: Well, going back to the anecdote of my buddy, we had the conversation maybe four years or so ago, five years ago when I first was getting into consciousness.

And that was his reaction. I don’t want to go there, mark. I don’t want to rock the boat this summer when I was talking to him about this new book, same reaction, different topic. So it’s like there, there are somewhat independent paradigm shifts, even though they’re interrelated, because I think there’s a consciousness elements, all this conspiracy, which you’ve covered very well in your show.

Uh, but they’re, they’re somewhat independent and they can be siloed. It’s it’s similar. , and as a result, we are seeing divides in the spiritual. Of those who are spiritual, but will reject the notion of a conspiracy and think it’s dangerous. And actually we’ll think that Liberty is dangerous. Somehow Rick

[00:56:37] Alex Tsakiris: Archer has told me that directly told me that directly, that w you know, talking about any of this stuff is dangerous and conspiracy theories are dangerous and he’ll contradict himself and then hope it’ll come back.

So, I, I mean, I’ve just got to call Rick out on that. Cause it’s over and over. We, we we’ve called each other out on it publicly, and I’ve had him on the show and I’ve talked about a lot, so it’s not like new information, but there is a classic case of somebody who’s a very, very, very public figure. Very important figure in the alternative spiritual community.

I’ll tell you another one is Jeffrey. Michelin does see the thing that he recently came out with. I mean, it’s like, what is he talking about? Has he completely lost his sense? Because the other way that we should tie this back to. Cause we talked about that. Other thing is the people who see this as some kind of political play in this kind of left, right.

Red state blue state, I mean, has it we’ve, hasn’t what we’ve gone through. Cook thoroughly, thoroughly convinced you that that is completely ridiculous and is just not really where the game is being played. And yet, you know, people like Jeffrey Michelin are completely attached to that in a way that makes it possible to break through and have these next level conversations.

[00:57:59] Mark Gober: Yeah. Well, I haven’t personally talked to Rick about these issues. I’m sure. At some point we’ll have an interesting conversation. I love his show Buddha at the gas pump. I think it’s one of the most important shows in terms of spiritual awakening journey and it’s really me. Um, but this, this device that we’re seeing, it’s, I’ve been

[00:58:15] Alex Tsakiris: trying to do T T let me pull you in so that you’re not asked to Pash people that I’m bashing.

I don’t understand that peop people who insist upon seeing this through the traditional political spectrum, any more than I understand people in frontier science who insist on seeing this through, , all is right and well with science, we just need better peer review and they don’t see the conspiracy behind it.

So the, the politics of it that’s gone right. There is no real left, right? Red state Democrat that doesn’t really. Th the bill here. Right?

[00:58:55] Mark Gober: I agree with you completely. And it’s a super important point because there’s a paradigm that people are in of, well, if you’re not a Democrat than you’re a Republican and vice versa, and if you believe this, then you’re part of this political movement and it’s this very divisive mentality.

Some of them and therefore, and because I’m a good person, I can’t agree with that. Science. It’s like this, this weird work logic that removes objectivity from the situation. And I think it allows for greater mind control.

[00:59:54] Alex Tsakiris: I agree one last topic and it’s a topic I always bring up because it just has to be front and center in this discussion.

And it’s, it’s difficult cause it totally throws people for a loop, but that’s ITI at UFO and we’re right in the middle of it. We are at an unprecedented point in history where this has been acknowledged then, and they’ve released the videos in the most phony political PSYOP kind of way, but there’s no getting away from the evidence and there’s no getting away from the fact that.

Despite what we all thought 10 years ago. And Richard Dolan wrote in his book after disclosure, that they’ll never disclose because then we’ll never stop asking the questions. Why did you lie? Why did you threaten these families? Why did you kill these people? Well, they did disclose and none of that happened and in some ways it’s a very discouraging, uh, uh, event as it relates to like the plan DEMEC and the destruction of Liberty and stuff like that.

Because I think that is another example of. Something that’s happened in the past, that has parallels. That’s happened to what’s happening here. You don’t think they can hide the truth. Hell yes. They can hide the truth quite well. And they can lie about it for extended periods of time and they can turn people in circles and they can co-opt whatever group you form and they can misinform and then they can come in and dribble in some good information, mix it into the pot.

So that’s all talking about the method of ITI, UFO disclosure. Then there’s just the implications of the reality of it. What does that mean in terms of us and where we sit in this world? What could that possibly mean? In terms of, if there is an underlying motivation behind this, if there is some direction behind all this craziness that’s going on, could it be connected to.

This other intelligence or other intelligences, which seems to be the case late a ton on the table. So just pick what you want to

[01:01:59] Mark Gober: talk about. Well, I’m really interested in that topic too. Um, and in my book I mentioned the potential for metaphysical good and evil and what that means for everything. , so in the, in this book, I talk about, you know, I get, I give some controversial views about politics, about the way in which government threatens Liberty inherently and propose a new way of doing governing.

That’s much more voluntary, which on its own is going to give people issues. I’m sure. And then I throw on the spiritual part too, and say that we have to consider these other aspects that you mentioned, Alex, that there’s a metaphysical aspect to reality. And how is that playing into politics and how does it play into the meaning of life and why does, why does politics even matter?

How does that fit into. Metaphysics a lot of political discussions don’t go there. Uh, but staying on your point about ITI and this idea of other intelligences more broadly, whether they’re multidimensional beings, actual physical beings from other dimensions and planets, I don’t know. We have to consider it.

, we, it goes back to this idea of mind control and how much information is being suppressed. And you’ve covered a lot of this on your show that the ETF phenomenon, there’s probably so much that we don’t know. And then certain things that we think are real that might be disinformation. Um, and then at our, on a related note, how can these forces be tapped into for both good and evil?

And to what extent is that being. To enact good and evil on the planet. , and then you start getting into stuff that you’ve been looking at too. And I don’t feel like I have a grasp on this, but I’m interested is looking at ancient texts, you know, the Gnostic texts and some of the ancient mythology is what’s what’s misinformation from that.

What is just pure mythology and what might, where might there be hints of truth? So, in my book, I actually quote the non-commodity texts, which were discovered in 1945. Uh, farmers were looking for manure and found these, uh, these tablets there that seemed to have been removed from the new Testament potentially.

So that makes me interested in those who speculate that it’s removed from the traditional religious texts. I get curious. Why, why might that have been removed? Is there something of interest there? And there’s one of the texts within the non-commodity scriptures is called the rulers and there’s a quote, I’m paraphrasing it here.

They talk about, , when humanity left the garden of Eden, they said the text says the rule. Left humanity in a great state of confusion and to a life of toil so that they would be preoccupied with the things of the world. And wouldn’t have time to focus on the holy spirit. That to me sounds a lot like this world.

[01:04:26] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. I I’m with you. I think it’s super important. I don’t know how to begin to kind of deconstruct it. So you’ve obviously listened to a couple of my things there. One, the one place I start is what we do know in terms of what wouldn’t get passed along the non-commodity library. The dead sea scrolls. I mentioned very interesting, like the dead sea scrolls and the connection with Josephus.

I’ve had a bunch of biblical scholars on everyone references Josephus, but at the same time, they acknowledge that it’s just a terrible, terrible historical source that has created an incredible amount of havoc in terms of these books that we have, that people live their whole life on. And to have generationally kind of look back up at mom, believed it.

Dad believed it. Grant had believed it. And that’s a very hard thing to kind of pull yourself out of. But if I can, I I’d switch back to the ITI thing. Cause I always like to throw this in there because even I forget it, sometimes they’re in the ed room. One of the ways that there is community is being divided and it’s fractured in a bunch of different ways is a lot of talk about consciousness as it relates to ITI.

And I don’t know if ITI is multi-dimensional and I don’t know why is everyone hung up on the nuts and bolts reality of it. So I’m going to pound on a drum that I pound on a lot is look at the nukes. So the UFO’s fly over our new air force bases. And one by one, they go to each missile silo and they shoot down a red beam and they shut off each one of the missiles.

And this is reported from people above the ground, the soldiers who are out there responsible for protecting the perimeter of the base. It’s also reported from inside the guy who’s responsible for pushing the button and sending those missiles on their way to Russia. There is no way this can happen, but it just happened.

And he did it. What does that say about ETS ability? Vis-a-vis our technology. What does that say about the moral imperative of ITI ETS? NDE is I like to say it, it begins to hint at it in the same way that you take an, I do to take the near-death experience accounts and say, we can’t take these literally, but what do they begin to suggest?

And then switch over if you would, to the Ukraine where the UFO’s did the same thing, but instead of turning the nukes off, they turned them on and they went to the silo and they shut down the red beam. And one by one, they turn the new axon and the Russian soldiers. What are we going to do? The earth will be destroyed.

We have no way of stuff. We’re not in control. This is our most advanced technology and we’re not in control of it. And then the ETS turned them back off. I don’t know what that means. I don’t know how many different species there are. How many different intelligences there are. I don’t know about time travel.

I don’t know about the rest of it, but people who want to dismiss UFO’s and ITI as purely a problem that has to be, can be chocked up to consciousness and some kind of interdimensional Hocus Pocus that we don’t know of are missing the point that they have demonstrated a mastery of our most advanced technology.

And that would kind of get, should give us pause on both those fronts in terms of the nuts and bolts reality of it. Not that there isn’t a consciousness reality of it too, but then also what could potentially be the agenda on, you know, as we’ve been talking about on a spiritual level, because they’re telling us something on a moral level and both you and I mark would say, well, that moral level is really.

Speaking to something on a spiritual level that we don’t quite, or w we get, but we don’t want to quite go there all the time.

[01:08:48] Mark Gober: Well, I’ll start with the reality of ITI slash other intelligences that are out there. And I first like to go to John Mack and the work that he did, Harvard psychiatrist look at, looked at cases of abduction.

I have his books. They are extremely well documented, very detailed, and he kind of reminds me of Dr. Ian Stevenson from the university of Virginia psychiatrist was looking at things very closely and was like, look, if I want to, if I want to take all these data points in the most logical conclusion is reincarnation of all these kids with past life memories, John Maxime, to come to a very similar place.

And there are many others that have looked at this too, but there’s something going on. I don’t think I’m an expert on it. There’s a lot that I don’t know and understand, but the fact that there does seem to be something going on. Indicates we need to ask the questions that you’re asking Alex is how does that interplay on a physical level with geopolitics what’s, what’s going on beyond what we can see.

And it’s very similar to the world of consciousness. Why people have a hard time accepting it, it, it implies, there are things that we can’t access with our senses, and it also implies that there are things that we know, but we have an amnesia too. These are really hard concepts to accept because they shadow reality.

And since, I guess my reality has been shattered so much, I’m very open-minded to at least the possibility. I don’t know what’s true and what’s not, but I think we have to consider it. And also we have to be very skeptical of history. Um, because we’re seeing right now that history is being manipulated and event will happen in the news.

We’ll frame it one way. And that, that it might go down in the history books as hap having happened that way. When in fact it leaves out many other things. So how does that ripple into what’s happened in the past and what has not been disclosed in the media that might have been more mainstream at one point, which could relate to ITI or, or otherwise, and.

I guess where I would close on that is we have to consider it and look into it very closely.

[01:10:35] Alex Tsakiris: Absolutely. So, uh, mark, we could, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed all, all of this and you’re, you’re such a deep thinker and you’re at another level that allows you to talk about all these topics and weave them together in a way that very, very few people can.

So I strongly encourage anyone to, who’s interested to pick up all of these books. If you’re unfamiliar with an end to upside down thinking, you’ll find it just really, really readable well, uh, sourced in terms of the support for what he’s saying and the same with this new book, an end to upside down Liberty.

Where do you plan on going next? And what are you going to, I guess the book is just out now. So where do you, what do you want to do with it and where do you plan to go next with it? Mark?

[01:11:25] Mark Gober: I wish I knew my life over the last five plus years has been a continuous mystery of I follow what I’m passionate in and what seems to align with my values.

So I’m going to continue doing that and life seems to present itself with things that I need to do so generally that’s how I think about it. But what I feel right now is there’s urgency to get the message out about this stuff. So I really want to get the message out about the book and get people, at least questioning these topics.

I want to go back to something you said earlier about like, you know, should we be changing people’s minds or are they on their own path? And for me, what I like to do is put information out and those who are interested might gravitate towards it. I’m not going to change people. And actually, I don’t know their karmic path or their spiritual path.

Maybe they’re not supposed to change. So it’s more about making things accessible for those who are interested. And that’s generally how I look at it. Um, and we’ll see where that goes. I think also as I, as the world unfolds in different ways, I might get pulled into a new area.

[01:12:21] Alex Tsakiris: I think that’s great. And I really, I really agree with you on, on one of the points that you made.

I feel so strongly similarly is that, you know, we just have to do our best in personally figuring this out and figuring out how to take action, because I am a Western guy too, you know, I love the Eastern philosophy of non dual. And sometimes that means non do you know, don’t have to do, you know, don’t be careful about what you do, but I just remember talking to a guy and I won’t mention his name, but he was in.

He was in the TM called for a lot of years, you know? And he was celibate for a lot of years and it’s not Rick by the way. But, uh, although Rick was too, and then, you know, traveled the world, teaching for their guru and then only to find out he was all about having sex with his girls and, you know, re cheating when the money and doing all that other stuff.

So, you know, be careful who you follow and stuff like that. But the, what this guy told me, I’m burying the lead. He said he got very serious and he goes, never get between a seeker and their guru. I’m like, well, I’ll take that one on myself. Well, fuck. Yes, I’m going to get between a seeker and their guru. So if your guru is.

You know, we can name any, any number of people in the, in the news who are cult leaders, but we can also name, you know, if your guru is, , any of the people who are peddling this plan, demic pedaling, just trust me, give me all your rights in all your liberties. And you’ll be fine. If that’s your guru, I will get in.

I will try and disrupt not physically, but intellectually. I will try and disrupt that connection. And I do feel like that’s my job, because I think the foremost value is one love everyone, but to tell the truth, and that’s what I think you’re trying to do. And that’s what I’m trying to do too. We’ve got to tell the truth.

[01:14:22] Mark Gober: I agree with you, Alex. And I commend you for what you’ve been doing. You’ve been going out there on a limb with many topics, and I’ve learned a ton from your show, and I know your listeners have too, so thank you.

[01:14:33] Alex Tsakiris: Oh, well, that’s nice for you to say, but, uh, thanks. We’re we’re colleagues in this endeavor markets.

It’s fantastic to talk to you and we’ll have to do it again soon. Thanks a lot for coming on.

[01:14:46] Mark Gober: I would love that. And thank you again for having me.

Thanks again to mark over for joining me today on skeptical. The one question I’d have to tee up from this interview.

Is do you think frontier science. Parapsychology near-death experience all the rest of it has a special role to play. In. This kind of full frontal assault on science? Is there something special in what they discovered? Because the counterargument to that is, Hey, that’s just because you went and looked at para psychology and you saw that it’s everywhere. It wasn’t anything special about parasitology and consciousness science over the last 10 or 20 years, it’s really everywhere. And that’s a reasonable counter argument. So I’d like to hear what your thoughts are on that. Track B now. Let me know.

Until next time. Take care. Bye for now.

(music: Tomie’s Bubbles Candlegravity). [box]