179. What Happened When the “Father of Stealth” Told His UFO Secrets? Hint — It’s ESP


When military intelligence insider Ben Rich told this UFO investigator UFOs were powered by the same force that causes ESP everything changed.


Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for an interview with UFO researcher, and author, Grant Cameron. During the interview Cameron explains how his research led him to uncover the connection between ESP, telepathy and the UFO phenomena:

Alex Tsakiris: One of the things that we like to do on Skeptiko is to keep pulling on a string and follow it as far as we can. That’s led me to you because when you look at human consciousness and you start looking for explanations for things like telepathy, precognition, out-of-body experiences, and other altered states of consciousness it eventually leads to this UFO thing, and the numerous reports of mind control and telepathy associated with it. So when I heard you say government insiders who really know about the UFO have told you that you can’t really understand this UFO phenomena without having an expanded view of consciousness I was intrigued.  Tell me how you came to this conclusion.

Grant Cameron: …We tracked this guy down and he turns out to be Dr. Eric Walker, who was former President of Penn State University. For 15 years he was the Chairman of the Board of the Institute for Defense Analysis, which is the top military think tank for the United States military. He was the co-developer of the homing torpedo. He was friends with Vannevar Bush. He had this incredible, unbelievable background of military and connections with Presidents and stuff like this. So when we go to him, we’re interviewing him as UFO researchers. We’re not thinking about the mind and consciousness; we couldn’t care less about that, no connection whatsoever. We’re talking to him and we’re trying to find out about this supposed UFO group that runs the whole thing, the MJ-12. We’re asking him questions about MJ-12. “Did you have contact with the aliens? How did the thing operate? How did you cover-up the UFO thing?” And suddenly in the middle of one of these interviews in 1990 he suddenly cuts off the conversation talking about hardware, about bodies and all this, and he suddenly says, “How good is your sixth sense? How much do you know about ESP?” And Walker says, “Unless you know about it and how to use it, you will not be taken in.”

…Then in 1993 there’s a related story about a conversation that takes place with Ben Rich. Ben Rich was the guy who ran “Skunk Works”, where the U2, the SR-71, the Stealth fighter, the Stealth bomber, they were all developed by what was called Skunk Works. Ben Rich ran it and he would get a number of questions about was this UFO technology? He’s giving a lecture in 1993. He’s dying of cancer. He gives a lecture at UCLA to a bunch of engineers and he’s talking and he says, “We’ve got the technology to take ET home.” He gives his lecture, he finishes the lecture, he’s walking out, and one of the engineers who was interested in UFOs runs after him. He asks, “How are these things propelled? How are UFOs propelled?” And Ben Rich turns around and says to him, “Let me ask you a question. How does ESP work?”

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Alex Tsakiris: Today we welcome Grant Cameron to Skeptiko. Grant is a highly-regarded UFO researcher who’s made some fascinating connections between what we know about the UFO phenomena and the kind of extended human consciousness we talk so much about here on Skeptiko. Grant is in the process of publishing two new books and regularly blogs at www.presidentialufo.com. Welcome, Grant, thanks for joining us.

Grant Cameron: Thanks, Alex, for having me on.

Alex Tsakiris: So Grant, one of the things that we like to do on Skeptiko is to keep pulling on a string and follow it as far as we can. That’s what I think led me to you because when you look at human consciousness and you start looking for explanations for things like telepathy, precognition, out-of-body experiences, and all the altered states of consciousness that serious researchers like Rick Strassman has looked into with his DMT research. Or even Terence McKenna used to talk about.

When you try to take that in whole, and then you keep pulling at it, that string eventually leads you to bumping up against this UFO thing and the numerous reports of mind control and really consciousness-bending kinds of ideas that you run into. So when I heard on an interview and I heard you saying that the government insiders who really know about the UFO KIP thing all say that you can’t really understand this UFO phenomena without having an expanded view of human consciousness.

Well, I guess that really got me intrigued and that’s what I was hoping we would talk about today. So let me start with this. I want to jump right to the end and tell me how you came to this conclusion about consciousness being fundamental to understanding the UFO phenomena.

Grant Cameron: Okay, maybe I should first set up a little bit of my background. What happened was I got involved in 1975, just at the end of the Vietnam War right along the Canadian/U.S. border where the U.S. have all their Minuteman III missile silos, that’s where we had a bunch of sightings. Now before then I’d never thought about UFOs. I had no interest whatsoever.

But I did have an interest in stuff like Edgar Cayce, reincarnation research. I was very interested in the work of Dr. Michael Newton. I was very much interested in near-death and consciousness and stuff. But UFOs I had no interest whatsoever.

So I started in 1975 and I had these sightings and really the consciousness thing didn’t come up for like 35 years. It wasn’t until I was at a conference last year in Phoenix, Arizona and I’d filed a lot of UFO material. It started with sightings, realized that sightings really wasn’t getting us anywhere, and got into the government aspect of the documents and somebody must know about this sort of stuff. So for 35 or 37 years I collected material and documents and all this sort of stuff…

Alex Tsakiris: Now, Grant, let me interject here. You’re kind of glossing over the extent of your research which I think is phenomenal. We can talk about the whole field of UFO research and how an independent UFO researcher like you has the guts and determination to do this, but you’re a guy who’s filed how many Freedom of Information requests? And how many have you filed and how many pages of documents are we talking about that you’ve gathered in your research?

Grant Cameron: Oh my goodness. I’ve got over 100 Freedom of Information requests with the Clinton Library. What you do is you basically go to different departments and what I’d done was I tried to find who had the answer. I figured well, the President of the United States is supposedly the most powerful man in the world. He must know.

So I would file with various presidential libraries looking for their documents on UFOs. And also on remote viewing psychic phenomena, this sort of stuff, trying to find out what the President knows about these very sort of intricate, involved parts of reality and figuring at his level he must have a better idea than you and I in the public would know.

So Clinton was very interested in consciousness and UFOs. Hillary was very much into—you know she got caught with this channeling thing with this Jean Houston in New York City, this big scandal where she was talking to Gandhi and Eleanor Roosevelt. So they were really interested and I filed a lot of Freedom of Information requests there and I basically traveled to all the different presidential libraries looking for these documents. It really wasn’t that successful except for the Clintons.

In terms of documents I probably have oh, maybe 10,000 pages of material. A lot of it is not the hard answers sort of stuff but stuff that sort of relates. So I’ve collected an awful lot of material just trying to put it together and there really wasn’t much of an answer.

I’ve had these sort of moments of insight. One was when I had my first UFO sighting in 1975 which it’s sort of just a hit you and it’s like whoa. I didn’t believe this existed. The other one was when I saw Dr. Michael Newton talking about Life Between Lives. He lectured in about 1990 in Laughlin, Nevada. I saw that lecture and that just changed my life. The third one was when we got into this consciousness thing. This was last year in Phoenix where all the UFO lecturers—and this conference goes on for about a week and it’s lecture after lecture for a whole week.

I listened to all these different lectures and there seemed to be this thing where various people who were talking were talking about consciousness. It wasn’t the main part of their lecture but it was just a sub-topic in the lecture. For example, Dr. Steven Greer who did the disclosure news conference trying to expose all the high-level government witnesses, he talked about this consciousness thing, that this is at the basis of the UFO interaction with the Earth. David Sereda and all the various abduction researchers who would talk about this mental telepathy thing that was going between the abductees and the aliens. Nothing happened by word of mouth. It was all telepathy.

So this is sort of a sub-topic. But it wasn’t until the last lecture, and the last lecture was given by Colin Andrews. Colin Andrews is, for people who know the crop circles, the famous crop circles in England, Colin Andrews is the key researcher. He started in 1982. He is the top researcher on crop circles and he gave this lecture which was called “Circles of Consciousness” or something like that.

It was one of these mind-altering things that when I heard his lecture talking about the fact that the aliens were making crop circles but they were also controlling the people who were hoaxing crop circles. That was his whole lecture, that 80% of the crop circles are hoaxed but that the people that he talked to who are hoaxing the crop circles were talking about some sort of interaction, some sort of force that was getting them to make certain types of circles.

So his thing was that the aliens control the whole thing, the real circles and the hoax circles. It was this whole idea that the aliens were sort of in control of what is going on. They’re part of the cover-up and they’re part of this interaction with the human race that they’re leading us along. I got this instant insight for 35, 37 years of research where suddenly everything fit together. All these stories that I could relate to you, these little things that I’ve known for years and years and years. Everything suddenly fit together.

Alex Tsakiris: Grant, hold on because there’s a lot going on here. I want to back up for a minute and say that this realization that you had that these pieces fit together, I think is kind of interesting. I share your perspective on it. From the beginning, these accounts have always had this element to them. This extended consciousness. We had Stan Friedman on this show a while ago and this show that we’re doing today, Grant, will be only the second show that we’ve ever done that touches on UFOs.

Again, our approach to it is to look at the connection between consciousness but Stan Friedman, of course you know, did some pretty extensive work on the Betty and Barney Hill abduction case in 1950. He’s not that interested in consciousness so he immediately brought to the table well, yeah, this guy pulls off the road, has no reason or explanation for why he’s done it, and then is communicating telepathically. So you have both the mind control—why would this guy who’s really kind of fastidious and would never get in the dust and the dirt pull off on this gravel road and get outside of the car? And then how did he know this stuff without communicating?

So from back in the ‘50s there are these reports. I just want to emphasize what you brought up, that this has been hanging around there for a long time and no one’s really put the pieces together. Now that I’ve interrupted you I want to get you back on track.

Grant Cameron: Okay, let me clarify that compared to there’s a part of the UFO community that believes very deeply in the abduction stuff. If you listen to the two top researchers, who were David Jacobs and Budd Hopkins, they talk about the fact that after 1975 we knew everything we knew about UFOs in terms of sightings. You had to get inside the craft to know what was going on. And they would talk about this interaction between abductees and the aliens but they made the connection that other than that, all the people who have talked to the aliens, it’s all hoaxes.

Like back to the 1950’s. The Betty and Barney Hill thing did not start until 1962 when they started to make this thing public. Before then, for example, when they were first abducted they went to NICAP, which was the biggest UFO group in the world at the time. It was headed by Major Kehoe and Major Kehoe said, “This is nonsense. Little aliens do not abduct people on the roads.” He basically would not touch this thing with a 10-foot pole. The same as J. Allen Hynek who was probably the most prominent UFO researcher in the world, the same thing. He said, “Stay away from abductions. It’s no good. Don’t go to abductions.” And a lot of people avoided that sort of interaction thing.

One of the things that people left out, when you get Hopkins and people like this who are talking about the abduction thing, they say everything else is nonsense. I started back with the work of Wilbert Smith who ran the Canadian government UFO program. The Canadian government investigated this thing from 1950 to 1954 and there’s a Top Secret memo. It’s a legitimate Top Secret memo. It was declassified by the Canadian government and in that memo, Wilbert Smith who is running the Canadian government UFO program writes to the deputy minister of the Department of Transport, giving a report on UFOs. He said…

Alex Tsakiris: Grant, let me interject here because this is really an important memo for folks who are still on the skeptical side of the whole UFO thing. What I want you to do is talk about in real simple terms who Wilbert Smith is, which you just did, and how did Wilbert Smith come to write this memo? Why was he down in D.C. and why should we believe what’s in the memo? And along the way, of course, you have to tell us what’s in this memo.

Grant Cameron: Okay, he was called a senior radio engineer and after the program was shut down and he was actually promoted to the head of communications. He worked at Shirley’s Bay which is outside of Ottawa, the Canadian capital, and basically it’s the NSA of Canada. He ran Radio Ottawa which is trying to pick off Russian communications. He was in charge of all the radio frequencies, AM/FM radio frequencies. So when FM radio came in in the late ‘50s, he would negotiate with the Americans on radio frequencies along the border. “You get this frequency; we get this frequency.”

But he also controlled the military frequencies and the Intelligence frequencies and handing out radio frequencies to these people. He was given the job to research the Flying Saucer thing. He was very interested. He said that he was down at a conference in Washington, D.C. and a couple of famous UFO books had come out. He started to ask questions and he said he basically got these confirmations. So he writes back to the Canadian government and he’s reporting on what he learned at the Canadian Embassy in Washington, D.C…

Alex Tsakiris: As part of his job. This is what he’s supposed to be doing. It’s also his passion and his interest but this is a real guy in Canadian security in the U.S., in D.C., and asking around, “Hey, what about this UFO stuff?”

Grant Cameron: Yeah. And he’s going through the military attaché which was attached to the Research and Development Board in the United States. The Canadian military liaison guy was giving him a lot of this information and the Research and Development Board in the United States was in charge of the hydrogen bomb, all the weapon research. This was the key sort of research and development aspect of the American military.

So he’s getting this material and he reports back the basic things that UFO people have always, for 30 years, have talked about this UFO thing. He was told Flying Saucers exist. The most highly classified subject in the United States, rated two points higher than the hydrogen bomb. This was written in December of 1950, two years before the first hydrogen bomb was detonated. So this is before the hydrogen bomb and he’s saying this is a higher classification than the hydrogen bomb. Then he says that there’s a small group headed by Dr. Vannevar Bush, who was the scientific advisor to Roosevelt during WWII…

Alex Tsakiris: The go-to guy, Vannevar Bush. He’s the go-to guy for everything, right, at the highest level? So atom bomb, nuclear…

Grant Cameron: Everything. All your atomic bomb, your jet engine, proximity fuse, every major development during WWII, the scientific aspect was headed by Dr. Vannevar Bush. So Smith is saying he’s given the job to figure out this Flying Saucer thing. So Smith is going back and saying “Flying Saucers are real.” He was told by American officials and he doesn’t say like some guy. He’s saying American officials are telling him this is for real and that if we have anything to exchange they’re willing to exchange. So for 30 years in the UFO community, I along with everybody else, quoted these four points. But the very next line in the document, everybody has left out…

Alex Tsakiris: Now hold on. Before you get to that next line let’s do a little cliffhanger here. Who was the intended audience for this memo? When does this memo become public? And what other evidence do we have that this was completely legitimate? What other confirmations do we have from other individuals that this did in fact happen the way that Smith said it did?

Grant Cameron: Okay, it was written in December 1950 to start with. It wasn’t declassified. Stan Friedman was actually one of the people who forced it to be pushed out, but it wasn’t fully declassified until 1978, I believe it was.

Alex Tsakiris: So almost 30 years later.

Grant Cameron: That this thing was declassified. And what happened was that when Smith was dying, he was dying of cancer of the lower bowel. He knew he was dying. He told his wife to get rid of the files. So the files were held by his oldest son and they were then moved to a researcher in Ottawa who knew that this memo existed because Smith had a copy in his personal files. So there was push from these researchers who knew what was in the files to get the Canadian government to declassify the documents.

So when they finally declassified the documents in 1978, this Top Secret document became public. Now, the way the government got out of it was they said he didn’t have the right to put Top Secret on it. They tried to find different ways to sort of invalidate the document but it is a valid document. It is in the Canadian research libraries and nobody denies that it wasn’t written and it wasn’t Top Secret. They’re just playing on the edges of whether they should have been Top Secret to start with. So this document is there. Smith writes it and he’s writing it to the Canadian government and…

Alex Tsakiris: And then we have confirmation from a U.S. official who says…

Grant Cameron: What happens is Stanton tracks down an interview that Smith does at the Canadian Embassy with a scientist, Dr. Robert Starbacher, who in the 1950s was a consultant to the U.S. military to the Research and Development Board. In 1983, after the document becomes public, Smith’s personal files become public and this interview, this handwritten interview with Dr. Starbacher, which gives part of the material—not all of the material in the Top Secret memo—but some of it. Stanton decides to see if this guy is still alive.

He finds the guy in Florida, Dr. Robert Starbacher, and he talks to Robert Starbacher.

“Did you give this interview to Wilbert Smith?”

He said, “Yeah, I recall giving this interview at the Canadian Embassy.”

He says, “What was the background?”

He says, “Well, one of the consultants in Washington at the Navy section, I was called into a series of meetings at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base where they had a crashed Flying Saucer and they were briefing a bunch of high-ranking scientists at the Research and Development Board.”

He didn’t have time to go—he was working the Canadian DO Line Project. But he started naming off these different people to Stanton who had gone. He named off Dr. Bush, of course. He named off Von Neumann who was the initiator of the computer, Dr. Von Braun. He named off a number of high-ranking scientists. Then he named off one scientist who was still alive. That’s kind of a long story. Dr. Eric Walker, who’s the former president of Penn State University.

We actually go to him and he confirms a lot of this stuff. So Starbacher does give confirmation for the fact that he did tell Smith it was the most highly classified subject in the United States, that Flying Saucers were real. All we know is we didn’t make them; we don’t know who made them. And so it sets the basis for the fact that Smith has not just connections with people in the United States but he has connections with the U.S. government.

In fact, his son confirmed to me as a rumored story that at the end of his life, his father had told him that yes, he had actually gotten access to the crashed Flying Saucer. He was shown a crashed Flying Saucer outside of Washington, D.C. and he did see the bodies. So Smith was at this very high level, classified area where there was actually interaction between the U.S. and the Canadian government.

Alex Tsakiris: And we should add that Wilbert Smith is someone that you have researched, a fellow Canadian that you have researched extensively. So you’ve spent several years collecting as many of his notes and documents and interviewing family members and friends. So it’s really been a major interest area of yours. Is that correct?

Grant Cameron: Yeah, yeah. And I have all his files which are four DVDs full. There was a lot of material.

Alex Tsakiris: But I want to come back and unravel and get back to the next line in the memo.

Grant Cameron: So in 1950 when Smith writes this memo to the Canadian government, describing what he’s been told by officials of the United States, he talks about the UFO stuff which everybody quotes. The very next line everybody leaves out. I left it out for years, too. He said, “I was further informed that U.S. authorities (and you’ve got to get that—U.S. authorities) are investigating along quite a number of lines which might possibly be related to the Saucers such as mental phenomena, and I gather they are not doing too well since they have indicated that if Canada is doing anything at all along the lines of geomagnetics they would welcome a discussion with suitably accredited Canadians.”

So he’s basically saying that they’ve got this connection with mental phenomena and if there’s anybody inside Canada who’s working on it, if you get cleared to talk on a classified level, we’re willing to talk to you because we’re trying to figure this thing out. And the key part of this whole thing is that in 1950, no matter what anybody in the UFO community wants to say, there was no discussion. None whatsoever in any literature that there was any interaction between the aliens and human beings.

The first interaction that’s publicly been made known was when the contactees, which were people who were talking to the Blonds, appeared in 1952. George Adamski. There was a bunch of them in 1952 that started to say, “We’re talking to aliens and we’re having meetings with them.” Smith writes this memo two years before. There is no discussion in UFO literature about an interaction, whether it’s talking to aliens or whether it’s telepathy.

So the important part of this whole thing is that in 1950, Smith is saying the American authorities already know that mental phenomena is part of this Flying Saucer phenomenon. The American government, who will say right up to today—Obama released a statement just a couple of months ago saying we have no evidence. We don’t have anything. And here’s Smith saying in a Top Secret memo, which is not discussion of whether this is a legitimate memo, in 1950 he’s already saying the American authorities know about the importance of mental phenomena associated with the Flying Saucers. So they’ve known the mental phenomena aspect right from Day One.

Alex Tsakiris: So, Grant, that’s fascinating. Now make the connection for us for MK-ULTRA. Tell people a little bit about what is MK-ULTRA, particularly because it happens up there in Canada.

Grant Cameron: Okay. The whole MK-ULTRA and all the related programs didn’t become public until the mid-1970s and it became public in a big scandal in the United States. Richard Helms had been involved. When it first became public, it had been sort of discovered immediately that the vast majority of the documents had been destroyed. This was basically the CIA working on mind control and on trying to work on this aspect of using the mind as a weapon of war, interrogating people, finding out what the Russians were doing, and all this sort of stuff.

When you look back at the thing, there’s this very significant meeting that takes place. Smith writes this memo in December of 1950 and one of the people that’s mentioned in the Top Secret memo is Dr. Oman Salant, who was the head of the military research board in Canada. Smith mentions him, that he’s briefing him as well. He’s writing it to the Department of Transport but the Defense Department, this Oman Salant, is involved.

Alex Tsakiris: I guess what I’m asking is don’t we have to look at that a little bit differently now that we understand the Smith memo and the next line that you talked about? Because I understand the Russian connection. We had Joe McMoneagle, who was Psychic Spy #001 at Stanford Research Institute as part of the Stargate Program. We interviewed him and we understand that there really was this perceived threat from the USSR.

But I think what you bring to the table here is that there’s this other element going on which is this UFO, the understanding that the UFO phenomena is related to these mental phenomena and I think that that plays into this, as well. Maybe I’m taking it too far. Would you agree with that?

Grant Cameron: Well, I don’t think we really get the UFO connection until later. In the ‘50s, ‘60s, ‘70s I don’t think you get these pieces falling out like the MK-ULTRA, that whole scandal about the fact that the CIA was interested in the mind and the military aspects. It’s not until later when I get these other pieces that pop in that were always in my head, that sort of fit in where it says the UFO connection is really important.

The one was I mentioned Dr. Robert Starbacher and he was giving material to Wilbert Smith and when Stanton interviewed him he says, “Well, who was there? Was anybody alive? You’re mentioning all these guys who are dead.” He said, “There’s this one guy from Pennsylvania. He was real arrogant. He thought he knew everything. He attended all the meetings.” We tracked this guy down and he turns out to be Dr. Eric Walker, who was former President of Penn State University.

For 15 years he was the Chairman of the Board of the Institute for Defense Analysis, which is the top military think tank for the United States military. He was the co-developer of the homing torpedo. He was friends with Vannevar Bush. He had this incredible, unbelievable background of military and connections with Presidents and stuff like this. So when we go to him, we’re interviewing him as UFO researchers. We’re not thinking about the mind; we couldn’t care less about that, no connection whatsoever.

We’re talking to him and we’re trying to find out about this supposed UFO group that runs the whole thing, the MJ-12. We’re asking him questions about MJ-12. “Did you have contact with the aliens? How did the thing operate? How did you cover-up the UFO thing?” And suddenly in the middle of one of these interviews in 1990, he’s interviewed for about eight years. I’m running this team of researchers around the world. I’m not talking to them. There are people who say, “I can get Walker to talk.”

“Okay, here’s his phone number.” And what we’d do is we’d take all the interviews that are done with him and we put them in a book. In 1990 in the middle of one of these interviews, he suddenly cuts off the conversation talking about hardware, about bodies and all this, and he suddenly says, “How good is your sixth sense? How much do you know about ESP?” And the other guy goes, “Well, not really.” It’s not of interest to him. And Walker says, “Unless you know about it and how to use it, you will not be taken in.”

Because the question was about who’s running the group. What’s this MJ-12? How many people are in the group? How are these people operating? And he says, “Unless you know about ESP and how to use it, you would not be taken in by this MJ-12, this over-riding group that runs the UFO program. Only a few know about it.” We saw the interview and I put it in the book. We published the book in 1990. We’re about to re-publish the book. We put it in this book in 1991.

We never mentioned it in the book. We never brought up this mention of the fact that ESP was involved because it meant nothing to us. We were into the hardware and the bodies and all this sort of stuff. But he mentions this in 1990. Then in 1993 there’s a related story about a conversation that takes place with Ben Rich. Ben Rich was the guy who ran Skunk Works, where the U2, the SR-71, the Stealth fighter, the Stealth bomber, they were all developed by what was called Skunk Works.

Ben Rich ran it and he would get a number of questions about was this UFO technology? He’s giving a lecture in 1993. He’s dying of cancer. He gives a lecture at UCLA to a bunch of engineers and he’s talking and he says, “We’ve got the technology to take ET home.” He gives his lecture, he finishes the lecture, he’s walking out, and one of the engineers who was interested in UFOs runs after him.

He says to Ben Rich, “How are these things propelled? How are UFOs propelled?” And Ben Rich turns around and says to him, “Let me ask you a question. How does ESP work?” And the guy says, “Well, it means that all points in time and space are connected.” And Ben Rich turns around and he says, “That’s how they work.” And so here’s this top guy in U.S. military research who’s saying ESP, that’s how UFOs are propelled. So you get these connections years later that basically put this together.

Alex Tsakiris: Grant, let me layer something else on top of here that I’ve heard you say that changed the way that I think about this whole topic. I don’t know to what extent I fully, fully agree with you but that’s that you look at the UFO phenomena through a national security lens rather than as a scientific phenomenon. You insist that we look at it from a national security perspective. Tell us what you mean by that.

Grant Cameron: Well, let me clarify that. I wrote an article. It’s on my website. If you go to my website, on the right-hand side you’ll see Articles. I wrote an article I used to call “The 64 Reasons the Government Decided Not to Tell You the Truth.” The #1 reason is because it’s classified. This is military technology. If we can develop things that can fly around and nobody can capture them; if we can get this mind technology where we can go and grab the head of the Soviet Union or Russia and get into his head and give him messages like what’s happening with abductions and be back in Washington for lunch, that’s the kind of technology we want.

Alex Tsakiris: Let’s slow down and talk about that because we have to look at that for a minute. From a historical perspective, hey, that’s always been Priority #1 for any nation-state. Not only defense but offense. Whoever has the best weapon wins. And wins decisively. And their ideology and their whole culture advances. So this is really Priority #1 for any state. And we don’t have to look back too far in our history for evidence of that, right? So you can’t really make that point strong enough that this would be the top priority for any kind of new technology.

Grant Cameron: Yeah, it’s called “Military Lead-Time.” If you have a weapon and you suddenly decide to use it in a war, how long did it take you to develop it? If it takes you 60 years to develop it; you suddenly use it in a war, the other side can go to their leader and say, “Well, we’re going to fight this off and how long is it going to take?” “Well, about 60 years.” You know right now from the Iraq war, you can wipe out everybody else’s tanks in about two weeks. If you have a weapon, it’s over.

But there’s the other aspect of this whole cover-up thing, the 64 Reasons. One is the government is covering up for their reasons, military security and the fact that we’re paranoid and the Chinese and everybody in the world is trying to get us. We have to have this security and defense to protect the United States of America. But the other aspect is the aspect that connects with the mental phenomena and that is that the aliens are covering up as well.

The aliens could land on the White House lawn anytime they want; they could come onto the TV and announce themselves. They don’t and there is a cover-up by the aliens and that’s what I say, is that if you take a look at what’s happening and what I say the UFO community has missed is that in the UFO history, if you look it is like the aliens are turning the pages of a book.

There’s just one thing after another:

1947 to 1952, they do nothing except fly around and let people see them.

1952, they start to talk to people.

1961, they start abducting people.

1967, the cattle mutilation stuff starts. It does not start before 1967.

1982, the crop circles start. You get the aspect of people starting to remember various parts of abduction stuff that they didn’t remember in the ‘60s. They’re remembering different parts now.

It’s almost as if the aliens are just slowly turning the pages of a book and we are going through the way they want this thing to be unraveled. They could have told us in 1947 what was going on but they’re just slowly taking us along a path. That’s what is so important about this mental aspect thing is that if you take a look at the UFO history and you look at stuff, you see that the things that are happening now did not happen.

In 1975 it was a completely different world. The things that happened then don’t happen now. Ground trace, for example. You used to hear stories about aliens landing, ground traces. Little aliens walking around with little rods outside of their crafts. It does not happen anymore. There are no reports. There used to be hundreds a year. There’s none. It’s like the aliens are taking us down a path and this mental phenomena is part of what they’re doing.

There are some incredible stories inside the UFO community that show that they are doing this kind of stuff. For example, let me give you one. The Rendlesham Forest story is one of the top stories in UFO and that’s a story about a craft landing at a U.S. Air Force base in Britain and the people going out and touching the craft and seeing this stuff. All sorts of reports and stuff like this. James Penniston, who is one of the main people who was at the site, gets near the craft and he touches the craft.

He’s been interviewed and he talks about this message that he gets. It’s a message that comes in zeroes and ones and they later put the message together. It’s a 14-page long message of zeroes and ones. And he gets this message and it has this interpretation. I won’t get into the interpretation. But he’s interviewed about a year and a half ago and he was asked, “This 14-page message of zeroes and ones, you had to put it down, you got it instantly in your head when you touched the craft. Could you do it again?” And Penniston said, “Yes. I could write the message again.”

Fourteen pages of zeroes and ones and he can actually re-do that message. Not just an ordinary message from a mailing. Incredible message that is 32 years later, he can still remember the message, every dot, every zero in that message for 14 pages. That’s an incredible thing and that’s the aliens giving something to us that is not just a message. It’s an incredible message.

Or the story of the most famous abductee in UFO history now is Stan Romanek. A lot of people will say this guy’s a hoaxer. One of the things that he’s incredibly known for is getting these very complex formulas, mathematical formulas that he just suddenly gets up in the middle of the night and starts writing these formulas. Under hypnosis he writes these very complex formulas. One of the formulas was a formula by one of the top people who was involved in the mind control and remote viewing program, Dr. Hal Puthoff, who ran the SRI program for 25 years for the CIA.

One of his formulas he’s gotten out of the mind aspect, the remote viewing. He’s gotten into the UFO thing, into zero-point energy. One of the formulas that Stan Ramanek writes is one of the formulas that had only been published one time in the world and it was a formula by Hal Puthoff on zero-point energy, and this abductee gets it.

So you get these not just ordinary messages. You’re getting these things as if the aliens are putting this in here and actually taking us along a path and giving us stuff that we would have not have gotten on our own. They are leading us so that—they’re covering it up but they’re gradually releasing it. Now I’ll say the disclosure, when we finally find out what’s going on with UFOs, is when the aliens tell us.

Alex Tsakiris: Yeah, and boy, there’s just so much there to pull apart. I just can’t leave that without touching on one point that I think you make and that’s that to understand the government deception and the government cover-up, one of the things you bring to the table is to say it doesn’t have to be masterminded if you just look at it from the national security lens. You can have a lot of people that can just be set off to do a task that’s purely national security and it can wind up looking very nefarious from a high level when in fact they’re just hey, we have to make sure that we’re on top of this kind of thing.

Let me leave that for a minute because there’s a lot to pull apart there. What I really want to do is circle back around now and talk about some of the things that you’re talking about from these other glimpses we’re getting of expanded human consciousness and see how they might fit together. Then I think we can’t even really talk about the aliens versus us and this time versus that time. I think all those things start to get a little bit fuzzy.

The person I bring into this discussion I mentioned earlier is Joe McMoneagle, who we had a chance to interview a few months ago, and of course is Psychic Spy #001. One of the anecdotes he told that I thought was just fascinating is he sits down with Hal Puthoff at Stanford Research Institute and as you just said, Hal has been hired by the CIA to figure out this remote secret spy thing and how we can spy on the Russians using psychics.

He looks over at his file that they unsealed, that is totally Secret, no one can get into it, and there is a copy of Raymond Moody’s Life After Life book. The reason why this is relevant is because Joe McMoneagle has had a very profound near-death experience while he’s an Intelligence officer for the United States in Germany. In this near-death experience he leaves his body and is having an out-of-body experience and then goes to Heaven and encounters this being that for any other way we’d talk about it is God and makes this connection at this level of consciousness that is clearly way above our level of consciousness and gets this mental download.

Again, you’re talking about the Rendlesham Forest case. You look at near-death experiencers or many other spiritually-transformative experiences that have been reported throughout time, whether they’re Kundalini or Christian experiences. Often there’s this download of information that just gets put into the brain and sometimes they can’t even repeat it when they get back. But there is this higher order of consciousness. So don’t we have to start trying to make that connection too, and try and see how the whole thing fits together?

Grant Cameron: Yes, but it’s still a big package of unknowns. I mean, you sort of get the connection that you can get these downloads, that consciousness is an extremely integral part that may be the whole thing. That consciousness is like the Eastern philosophies.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. Maybe fundamental.

Grant Cameron: That consciousness is the basis of the whole thing. In the Western world, and I have some problems with science. I always say science is not there to solve a problem for us because science is basically, if you take a look, John Alexander who’s a high-level military guy who’s gotten into the mind and into UFOs and stuff, he always mentions the fact that in the National Academy of Sciences, the higher the level you get of science, the more they disbelieve any sort of phenomenology, whether it be UFOs or mental phenomena or remote viewing or stuff like that.

At the National Academy of Sciences level only 4% of the people believe in phenomenology. They have nothing to do with it. So basically you have like Atheists. Phenomenology Atheists. The UFO community always wants scientists to run the program and I say, “No. Keep them out of it because they’re tainted by sort of a Christian religion where everything is material. That you have a God with a beard and we’re going to go to Heaven with streets paved of gold. I think you have to move away from that into sort of an Eastern philosophy thing.”

But as I say, I’m one, you might have Colin Anders, you have Steven Greer, you have maybe a dozen people in the UFO community who believe strongly that that consciousness is a basic core of this phenomenon. The rest of them would say this is absolutely nonsense. This is crazy. This is nuts-and-bolts. Don’t talk to me about this consciousness stuff. It’s nuts. It’s not well-received in the UFO community.

It’s a very new aspect and I’m saying to the UFO community now we’d better start taking a look seriously at this, as nutty as it might have appeared in the 1950s. This is what’s going to give us the answer to what is going on here. If you start looking at the nature of consciousness, the nature of the universe. Is it really a material universe? How does it work? This entanglement property, all these advanced physics ideas. But we are very, very far away. I don’t think we really understand very much of it.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. Of course we don’t. But, Grant, it’s interesting what you say because when you take even a small step back from the UFO phenomena as we’ve talked about here, it becomes obvious that consciousness and this extended human consciousness or alien consciousness is central to it. It’s funny that there’s this controversy within your community about a phenomena that jumps right out at you from all the different angles that we’ve talked about.

I’ll tell you, from my perspective, and we’ve been at the extended human consciousness work of others through this show for a number of years, the next step is the spiritual aspect. The parapsychologists, let’s say, the parapsychology and the psi community that we’ve talked to a lot here, if I could roll in also the near-death experience science community or the out-of-body experience science community. All those have a similar blind spot in that they want to look at consciousness and extended human consciousness but they always have this kind of soft spot for scientific materialism.

They wind up saying some of the same things that you have in that we haven’t understood it or don’t understand it completely and all the rest of that. I really have been pushing things in another direction and that’s that all the reports of this extended consciousness we talk about very quickly get to this spiritual connection. I’m not talking about it from my personal spirituality. I’m just talking about it as a core part of the phenomena; a core part of the experience.

Joe McMoneagle, who is deep, deep in this stuff, he doesn’t talk about his near-death experience as being just a mental experience. He talks about it being a spiritual union with a consciousness that is of a higher order and from his perception, is of a much, much, much higher order. That may be offensive or upset people who are strong Atheists and as you point out, which is really more of an anti-Christian thing, but I’m not talking about anyone’s personal spiritual beliefs or personal religious beliefs.

I’m just saying the spiritual aspect is clearly a core part of this phenomena and I just wonder if anyone in the UFO research community has gotten there. I think John Mack was kind of headed there but John Mack, of course, a Harvard psychologist who got interested in the abduction phenomena and did a lot of research in talking to abductees and came to the conclusion that it was psycho-spiritual. So where has that whole line of research gone within the UFO community?

Grant Cameron: Boy, absolutely there’s a division there but what I always point out is it comes down to the male and female thing. I know you’ve been to UFO conferences but if you go to UFO conferences you’ll see a real separation between men and women. Men are into the hardware, they’re into the technology. How does this thing fly? Where’s it from? And if you take a look at women, they are into the spiritual aspects of the thing.

We’ve got to take a look at what the women are doing and what the men are doing and that it is a unity of the two. But right now it’s still a separation. You have the men who are into the hardware and you have the women who are into the spiritual, the experiences of people. They will go a lot farther in looking at the abduction experience as being almost a spiritual experience.

But if you talk to men you’ll talk to Robert Collins and his abduction experiences. They’re evil. They’re here; we have to try to fight them off. So you have the men who are basically saying it’s an evil type thing, a national security thing. We’ve got to fight it. And the women are at a higher level. There is a real division inside the UFO community.

The reality, I think, is going to fall where you describe it that it’s going to be more of a spiritual experience. We’re sort of influenced by the government that everybody’s an enemy and it all comes down to us versus them. So we see all the aliens, we see all the latest UFO movies it’s always the great Americans bringing freedom and democracy to the world, fighting off these evil aliens who are trying to take over the world. Whereas that’s not what I think it is.

If the aliens wanted to take over and destroy us they could have done it 100 years ago. Why would they wait? It’s not. It’s more of a spiritual development of the Earth at their pace as they unfold this thing for us. The women have already caught on to how this works.

Alex Tsakiris: One last area I’d like to get into, and it’s been great talking. I appreciate all the time you’ve spent on this. You obviously have not only a passion for this but you’ve matched it with a deep, deep knowledge. I really respect and admire the way that you’ve gone about researching this and filling this unexplainable void that we have out there in terms of why an independent researcher like you has to be filing hundreds of FOA requests and gathering and publishing this data while we have this huge apparatus in the media that is just completely blind to it. Let me get off of that pedestal.

I want to talk about the psychedelic connection because another guest we’ve had on this show is Dr. Rick Strassman, who was at the University of New Mexico. As far as I know he’s the only researcher who was given permission to study the effects of DMT on subjects. So he gathered up a bunch of students there at New Mexico and gave them rather high doses of DMT. They saw not only aliens but fairies and other independent entities that seemed to operate in this other realm.

And of course this work with psychedelics is mirrored by many other researchers. Anyone can go and Google “Terence McKenna” and you can get all sorts of interesting ideas about the connection here. What are your thoughts on what the psychedelic community and the psychedelic research and what we’ve found out? What’s your thoughts on how that might connect to all this?

Grant Cameron: I don’t really know. I have really not thought about it except as you’re describing it, it’s sort of like this small percentage of reality that we really understand. When you get into these different states of mind that everything sort of changes. I really don’t have much of an opinion except that it just shows how limited our knowledge of reality is. We really are just starting out. You’re probably going to need another 30 years of experiments and somebody getting an insight on a new experiment that will nail down what’s actually going on there.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. What I think a lot of folks don’t realize is that the materialism in science mirrors the materialism in our culture. So our materialistic society and how we’re materialists and how George Bush says, “Don’t worry about the Iraq war, just go shopping,” the connection is real. It’s not some abstract connection; it’s real. It’s only in a world that you construct where it’s just about matter; it’s about goods; it’s about survival, that you’re able to rationally do these things. To gather things and then go bomb other people.

If you have this expanded view that says we’re all somehow connected, and we don’t have to understand what that means, but we’re all connected, our idea of time is not what we think it is, as soon as those things break down you can’t run a nation-state. You certainly can’t go bomb other people and do all the other crazy stuff. You can’t deny basic water and health and the things that we do to all these people so we can—you just can’t run the game.

And I’m not saying that’s necessarily good or bad because hell, I have too many advantages to say that. I banged my head against that when I first got into this. It was like, gosh, darn it, why aren’t these scientists looking into this? If only they knew! It’s like hey, the whole process, the whole system is orchestrated so that anyone who has that awareness is kicked out from the beginning. You can’t have those yahoos running it and saying the Emperor has no clothes.

You’re coming at it from a whole different perspective and saying, “Hey, the UFOs are running the show.” I come at it from another perspective and say, “Hey, as a nonreligious person, as a non-Christian, God is in control. God is clearly in control.” When these near-death experiencers die, they tell you they see God. You just can’t get past that.

And it’s funny because I’ve talked to a bunch of near-death experience researchers. I just had a great interview with a guy who I think is one of the real champions of that, Melvin Morrison. We had this discussion and he came to the same thing. He said, “You’re right. I have to play around with that concept because imagine this.” He’s an outsider. He’s a near-death experience researcher. He’s a physician, pediatrician. Teaches at a hospital. But he’s still an outsider, right? He’s ostracized because he researches NDE stuff.

But even within the NDE community he’s an outsider if he goes and says, “Well, yeah, they do talk about God and we have to figure out what that would mean.” That higher-higher-higher-higher-higher-higher consciousness that we would then call God. We have to factor that into the equation. We can’t just waffle it and say, “Well, yeah, maybe we’re all connected in some way.” You know, that’s not what the best evidence is telling us. The best evidence is telling us that there’s something pretty close to what we’ve always been told is God.

And with all these different religions and wisdom traditions and Native Americans and Aborigines have always pointed to and said, “There’s like a real, real high guy up there and that’s God and that’s more than all this other stuff.” So that’s where I’m coming at it from. That’s just a hard thing to get over, given the way we’ve orchestrated the whole deal that we have to work inside of our materialistic world.

Grant Cameron: Yeah. You’ve just got to transfer that sort of God thing to find a way to make a buck out of it and then people would accept it. Or take the threat out. I’ve mentioned numerous times in the UFO community if you take a look at the interaction between abductees and the aliens, it is actually direct ESP. Direct mind-to-mind interaction. The ESP experiments that have been run by humans have all this noise-to-signal ratio that’s bad at the best of times. Here it’s like there’s absolute no noise whatsoever. There are just interactions.

So if you look at that, that’s a major threat to say, governments. If you can read somebody’s mind, what do you if you’re a politician now running for the 2012 election. You stand up to make a speech and everybody knows exactly what you’re thinking? There is no scam anymore. That, to me, to an establishment is something like let’s keep this out of here. This is not something we want.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. But if I can make one more point and drill into this, I’d be interested to get your opinion on this. And that’s that I just can’t stress this enough so I’m going to stress it one more time. I’m not coming at this from a religious perspective. I don’t have any agenda to push in terms of any religion or even any kind of spirituality. I just come at it from looking at the facts. And the facts are the abductees don’t talk about the aliens as being God. They see this level of consciousness that is greater than them but they don’t see it as God.

And God here is just a placeholder. People are going to freak out. They do all the time whenever you say God. But a placeholder for a very, very high consciousness. And the people who have the Kundalini experience, who have the spontaneous prayer experience, who have the near-death experience in particular, they do talk about “God.”

I don’t see too many people really making that differentiation. They just go in and say, “Oh, yeah, well, the abductees had this ESP experience or this out-of-body experience so it’s like the aliens are God.” Well, you know what? I don’t know if that’s true or not but the data that we do have suggests that it’s something very different and that people know when they’re encountering something like God. They can differentiate when they’re encountering something like an alien consciousness.

Grant Cameron: It’s at a lower level. It’s like a lower frequency or whatever. It’s the same sort of experience. Like consciousness would explain everything from God all the way down to the most basic material things. It’s all still consciousness. It’s sort of different vibrations at different levels and so your ESP that’s happening at the alien level is at a higher level than what we have talking to each other on the Earth. I started out and that was my experience.

Before UFOs I was at the university and my major was religion and I did the near-death experience thing. I talked to the different chaplains and asked all the weird questions of the various chaplains like, “Were there any miracles? Did anybody ever predict their death? Did they tell you exactly when they were going to die?” I had all these weird things that surrounded death. There definitely was a religious aspect to the thing that’s different than the UFO interaction between aliens.

I went to chaplains rather than ministers because with chaplains there’s no garbage there. It’s basically they’re dealing with dying people all the time. They’re not there trying to recruit you to the Roman Catholic religion or the Lutheran religion or whatever. It’s basically they’re dealing with dying people and that’s who I wanted to talk to. It’s like when you come to death there’s no more crap. Everybody’s telling the truth; everybody’s basically telling you the way it is.

And Atheists. I had numerous ones where, “Did you ever have an Atheist? Did they ever come back with a near-death experience?” It still came down to this higher God-thing, which as you say, it’s different than the alien thing. But we’re just looking at different levels of this consciousness thing, that it’s all consciousness.

But in the UFO community, people do not understand that. They’re still at this basic level of nuts-and-bolts, us versus them, military aspects. There is a difference but it’s still consciousness. It’s whatever level you’re at that is explaining the same thing. Once you understand consciousness you can put them into different levels and explain what’s going on. But we’re so much in the material world that consciousness really hasn’t been researched very much by anybody. That’s the basic problem we have.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. Hey Grant, tell us what’s going on, what’s coming up for you in terms of books, appearances, anything like that.

Grant Cameron: I’m re-doing this book that we did in 1990 that basically tells the story about Wilbert Smith and going to the States and Dr. Eric Walker and we go into Area 51, the updated story of Area 51 that gives the reality. That’s being republished. Richard Dolan is going to republish that within the next three to four months.

Basically I’m giving the consciousness lecture. I think this is, as I said, one of three top periods in my life. The one was when I had the UFO sighting; one when I saw Dr. Michael Newton speak about Life Between Lives, and the third was when I had this consciousness thing last year at Phoenix. I’m giving this consciousness lecture first in England in the beginning of August. Then in Philadelphia. At the end of September I’m giving the consciousness lecture at the UFO Conference next February in Phoenix, Arizona. Then I’ll be giving it in Orlando in May.

So it’ll be the same lecture and as it will be a more developed lecture as I go along. But this is the lecture I’m giving now. I’m saying it’s the most important thing the UFO community now has to learn. This is a critical thing. If you want to understand what’s going on and understand the fact that the government has always known this, you’d better start looking at this aspect of consciousness because we have entirely missed the boat. We are floundering around, still looking at sightings and tracking sightings and stuff.

I think we have missed one of the key aspects of the whole phenomenon which gives us a lot of the answers as to what’s going on with UFOs. And that is the consciousness thing. It’s a consciousness lecture and Colin Andrews is going to follow me in London. He’s giving the consciousness lecture. He knows mine; we’re exchanging information on consciousness. He’s going to give the one on the crop circles again about consciousness and crop circles.

I think you’ll see it slowly move into the UFO community. It will be fought by a lot of people but this is, as I said, this is something the UFO community has missed and I’m going to start talking about it. To me it was a revelation. I was missing it, as well.

Alex Tsakiris: Great. So for more information, www.presidentialufo.com.

Grant Cameron: I appreciate your time and your interest. It’s strange to see somebody else outside of the UFO community take this interest and I’m glad you did. I hope that our two communities have more interactions because I think we have something to offer each other that will help each of us understand what the other side is doing and help us understand the answers we need in our field.

Alex Tsakiris: I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s this never-ending process of opening yourself up to more and more of what’s out there. It’s always a little uncomfortable. I’m sure some listeners to this show are a little uncomfortable, tip-toeing into the UFO field. But gosh darn it, you just have to follow the stuff wherever it leads. That’s really our charter, isn’t it? We just have to go where it takes us.

Grant Cameron: You got it.

Alex Tsakiris: Well, thanks so much for joining us today. I just am delighted with the way this came out and I hope people enjoy it.

Grant Cameron: Beautiful. Thanks, Alex.