Dr. Jeffery Martin, The Finders Course Works, Sorry Haters |406|

Dr. Jeffery Martin thinks he has cracked the code to well-being — an impressive list of researchers agree.

photo by: Skeptiko

Intro

Meow. What a bitch, am I right?

That’s James Franco from the movie The Interview.

No, you’re not right. He’s not being a bitch. He’s completely right.

He’s motherfucking peanut butter and jealous.

He’s not jealous.

Talking about haters.

Now, the interview I have coming up with Jeffery Martin is quite long, extensive, talks about a million different things (including his new book, The Finders). But one of the points I had to pull out, because it just intrigues me, is the hater aspect of it.

Here’s a guy, who by all accounts, has made some major strides in advancing the ball, in terms of our understanding of consciousness and more importantly, our understanding of how the transcending of consciousness, in a kind of non-dual way, relates to wellbeing.

So, there’s some social science research combined with some practical shut-up and meditate stuff that is truly stunning. But, haters gonna hate.

Alex Tsakiris: It’s so unique what you’ve done, we just can’t stress that enough. Whether people like it or don’t like it, whether you’re that grumpy Buddhist neuroscience type who’s sitting there going, “This isn’t it,” or whether you’re a spiritual seeker who’s so attached to your own tradition that you feel like this guy is going to take the secret sauce out of what you already know. There are all sorts of reasons to be a hater on this stuff, and I’m sure you’ve encountered all of them.

Jeffery Martin: Yeah, we have a scientific framework, not a religious framework. I’m not a religious scholar. We have had such a massive amount of hostility directed at us in recent years as we’ve conducted these experiments and as we have been, sort of more routinely transitioning people from these various systems. And we’ve done, I feel like a lot of outreach. We’ve allowed a lot of people from those systems to use our programs for free or even subsidizing them in other ways or even adapting things in other ways and allowing them to run them in person, because they’re more comfortable running things in person. I feel like we’ve done as much as we can do to really sort of reach out and yet there’s still just such hostility that comes from those folks. I mean, how happy can you really be if you’re that hostile? If you’re really experiencing this stuff, it’s hard to be that hostile.

Like I said, there’s a lot to this interview and I’m tempted to stack up a bunch of clips, so you listen to, what I think are all of the most important parts of this interview. But I’m not going to do that, I’m just going to throw it to the wind and see what you pull out of it.

Stick around, my interview with Dr Jeffery Martin is up next on Skeptiko.

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Read Excerpts

Alex Tsakiris: Today’s guest has a new book titled The Finders. Now, let me read you a couple of blurbs from the back of this book. The first is from well-known neural psychiatrist, Dr Peter Fenwick.

“If a Nobel Prize existed for psychology, the work done by Dr Jeffery Martin and his team would be a strong contender.”

Again, that’s from Peter Fenwick.

Next from well-known consciousness researcher Dr Allan Combs.

“In this book Dr Martin takes his place beside William James and Abraham Maslow to give us one of the most important and groundbreaking works on consciousness and human potential.”

Heady stuff. Dr Jeffery Martin, welcome back to Skeptiko. It’s so great to have you here.

Jeffery Martin: Thanks so much, it’s great to be here. It’s wonderful to see you again.

Alex Tsakiris: Likewise. And I’m not really trying to make light of that at all, I think that that really puts this in context. Whether you agree with those blurbs or not, they’re blurbs unlike blurbs I’ve read. “Nobel Prize” “William James, Maslow.” What does that feel like for you?

We’re going to talk about this Finders Course. We had you on a few years ago, you were in the middle of it. You had it up and going and it was running but it just keeps gaining a lot of momentum. What’s going on Jeffery Martin?

End 00:01:31

Start 00:09:21

Alex Tsakiris: I remember the first time that we met, which is n ow probably five years ago, I can’t even count, but that was your vision right then and it just struck me, and it was awesome. I think it was, somebody needs to have that vision but your vision was, you’re sitting around with a bunch of people saying, “Hey man, come and check out my little [unclear 00:09:38] here and let’s get a few people together to do a course,” and Jeffery Martin’s going, “Yeah, but what if we turned on a billion people? What if a billion people woke up, what would that be like? How would that be?” What would the economic model for that be? What would the technology model for that be? What would the data from that be?” Do you know what I mean? And not talking about it in some new-agey, kind of the consciousness of the planet shifting, but more from a kind of Silicon Valley marketing, put it in a spreadsheet kind of thing. No, what would that mean if a billion people made this kind of transition that we say we can measure?

So we say we can measure these kinds of things like wellbeing in these different ways and we all accept that we can to some extent, and then you’re saying, “What if that shifted this way for a billion people?” That’s pretty audacious but you’ve been true to it. You’ve been true to it from the very beginning.

That said, recap for people because I think it’s really important. If someone did nothing other than the first phase of this work, it would have been a huge contribution, a huge contribution. The contribution that everyone sits back and says, “Well, somebody should do that. Somebody should do that. Somebody should do that.” And you did it, in terms of going into all of these communities that say they nurture this enlightenment awakening thing and saying, “Okay, great, who are they? Who are the people among your community who have achieved that?” and then you went and talked to them. And this has been years ago, this was at the beginning of your research, but how many of those people have you talked to and systematically tried to understand what they’re doing? Which is Phase One, we’re not even going to get into Phase Two yet.

Jeffery Martin: Yeah, Phase One involved, in some cases those long format interviews, those 6 to 12 hours, really digging in interviews. In some cases repeating those for people. So we have some longitudinal research subjects that we still will check-in with, to this day, in an in-depth kind of way.

Then, a lot of that was giving people a lot of the gold standard psychology measures that were out there, across a wide range of sub-psychology disciplines, from wellbeing and positive psychology type stuff to developmental psychology, personality psychology, psychopathology stuff. You name it. And also physiological measurement. So lots of brain stuff, heart rate, breath, breath rate, breath gases, GSR, you name it.

One thing that we haven’t made it to yet, I think even when I talked to you last, I was sort of hoping to make it to there, because my friend Deepak Chopra had been harping on me about it at the time. He’s an MD, he’s a doctor, and he’s still a doctor. People think of him as like this author or whatever else, but at heart he’s still basically a physician.

So he was like, you need to collect blood on these people and all of that. And we actually have never gotten around to that. I would still like to get around to looking at genetics and looking at genetic changes and looking at blood changes and stuff like that. But I’m sort of more on the neuroscience, electrons side of the world, not so much the wet lab side of the world.

So yeah, we did all of that. There were about 1200 people who participated in some way in that initial phase of the project, that we call Phase One of the research project. So it was a lot of people. It was across every, as far as I can tell, across every major and most major(ish), minor(ish) spiritual and religious traditions, but also beyond that.

End 00:13:29

Start 00:20:07

Alex Tsakiris: The work that you’re doing, you do approach it so much like a social scientist on one hand and then on the other hand, you’re fully in as a subject, as a seeker and you wear those two hats and you wear them quite bravely. I love that about you.

The methodology that you were just mentioning, the more I learn about your methodology in some of the presentations you’ve done and talk about it, we could talk probably for hours on some of the subtleties of what you’ve discovered there and how that is important in understanding your work. But I’ll just throw out a couple.

One, I love these talks that you give, and you can see, you get pretty passionate about some of these things, but you’ll talk about trusting the current experience of that participant in these surveys. So not what they thought 30 years ago when they started their practice but what they experience and think now and maybe you can talk to why that’s important.

And also, like you just mentioned, separating that from what they’re supposed to believe, what their tradition teachers, what their text teach. You seem to take great pains to really develop a methodology that needed to focus on the data in a particular way in order to get some of the questions that you wanted answered, and I just think that’s awesome. Do you want to speak to that at all?

Jeffery Martin: Sure, I’m happy to speak to that and anything you really want to talk about, it’s great. That’s right, so I intentionally did not read anything. I haven’t read any of my subjects’ books, even though I often would leave their houses with their books that they would give me as a gift, hoping that I would read it probably. But I didn’t read any of them. And the reason that I didn’t read any of them is because our project has a very specific philosophy around that, in terms of a scientific philosophy if you will, and that is that what I really wanted to get at is lived experience.

So, I know that I cannot, I know just from sitting down, if it takes 6 to 12 hours to get to a point where you think that you probably understand enough of someone’s phenomenology, and they spend the first, at least, hour or two talking exactly like they would in a book, and that’s not enough to really understand, that it takes hours from that point to really come to some sort of meaningful understanding. That tells me that maybe I should read their books before I sit down with them as a starting point, but I don’t even do that because it’s frozen in time at some point. Who knows how many years ago a book was written. I need to know who they are now. I need to understand their phenomenology now.

Alex Tsakiris: When you say phenomenology, bring that down to a concrete level that any “spiritual seeker” listening to this show would understand.

Jeffery Martin: Yeah, that’s kind of a sciencey term and a philosophy term, of course, it’s also used in philosophy, it comes out of philosophy. But basically, all that means is trying to understand someone’s internal experience, really. Just trying to get your arms, as much as you possibly can, with as much accuracy and as much comprehensiveness around someone’s internal way that they are experiencing.

End 00:23:30

Start 00:30:40

Alex Tsakiris: On that drive to Chicago, you saw the trees for something more than trees, for a forest, and then you said, “Wait a minute. I can maybe help people get to the forest.” And that launches you on this path of saying, “Okay, let’s create this systematized approach to taking what these people are doing, generalizing it,” turning it into a course, if you will, and then that becomes the focus of what you do next.

And you’ve now done that, collected an amazing amount of data. All along, being the social scientist in your demands that you measure, measure, measure because everyone else is talking about this shit and they’re not measuring it in a way that becomes really important as the story goes on.

So bring us more up to date on how that all unfolds.

Jeffery Martin: So basically the day came when Phase One ended and Phase One had been us talking to people who had already experienced this, sometimes and often times for decades. But we had people in the sample that were as little as just over a year, which was our minimum cut-off for persistence. You had to be in it for just over a year persistently all the way up to decades.

I can’t remember what our average was, I don’t talk about those numbers as much anymore, so they’re not in my head, for many years. But I want to say the average persistence was like 7 years or 12 years or something like that. Most of the sample had been in it for a while.

So what’s interesting is that the day basically came when post-analysis was not enough. You want to know what’s actually changing in an individual. Who were these people before? And it was very clear to me that they were not able to accurately remember or represent who they were before.

One of the things that we know about wellbeing research in general, is that when somebody gets happier and if they have a persistent shift to being happier, they sort of color their entire history with that happiness. It’s frustrating, I think, for people that make legit self-help products that actually do help people, because those people will often get to the end of the process and they’re clearly happier but they’ll insist that they’re not, and it because they’ve forgotten how unhappy they were at the beginning of going to that course or whatever it was that shifted them.

End 00:33:03

Start 00:42:24

Jeffery Martin: When psychologists look at those numbers they look impossible. You shouldn’t be able to have like a 50% drop in neuroticism. Your personality traits, just to pick one example of one tiny piece of data. Your personality traits are supposed to be relatively stable. You shouldn’t be able to take a four-month program and have a 50% drop in your neuroticism or whatever, right?

Alex Tsakiris: How about a couple of other data points, stress, happiness?

Jeffery Martin: Yeah, stress, happiness, I’m not thinking too much about these numbers anymore. But I think there’s like a 40% drop on depression measures, on the Center for Epidemiological Studies, depression measure, which was one of the main depression measures. All of the measures were like major measures. Huge shifts and the mysticism type measures, of course, as one would expect.

You know, for me personally, I would give these presentations every year at the INTEREST scientific conferences and stuff. They would just invite us to present every year because who the heck else is doing this, right?

I remember there were always like a few people that I was really waiting to see when I tipped them over with data. Like, just the die-hard skeptics in the room. The people who really just did not want to believe our findings. In many cases because they were Buddhist themselves, even though they were also neuroscientists or whatever else. So they have fundamental, philosophical, ideological beliefs that made them diametrically opposed to our data.

I remember, a couple of years ago, I think, I was presenting and there was one guy that was left. And I love him to death, I won’t say who it is, but I love him to death. He’s a friend of mine. I have enormous respect for his work. He’s one of, I think, the most important people in the neuroscience of this space, but much as we like each other and as much as we respect each other, he was a hardened critic of our work for a very long time.

And I remember, I was in this one presentation and we finally had enough pieces of data within the wellbeing and depression stuff and between the personality measure stuff, like the neuroticism drop and I could tell that the one piece of evidence that probably tipped it for him was the meaning measures.

So we collected data on personal meaning and there is this one measure that looks at meaning in two different ways. These people have very accurately, I mean, it’s impressive work that they’ve got into this with the measure.

So they look at meaning as, what they call presence and search. And search really is seeking and it’s like a negative form of meaning making but they’ve found a way to measure it. And presence is essentially like just being at peace with things. So it’s like the form of meaning you want. It’s like the positive form of meaning that’s so illusive for humanity.

And we had, just really clear, highly statistically significant results that basically showed that in this population of people reporting fundamental wellbeing that you have the seeking portion of meaning, if you will, really significantly dropping, and the presence form of meaning really significantly increasing. And I don’t think I’d ever presented that particular data before, but I could tell it was that piece and also a piece of data on disassociation, depersonalization. I could just see his face change and after that there wasn’t anymore criticism, it was like, “Okay, you’ve got the puzzle,” like, “I’m convinced, you’ve got the puzzle. Those are all of the puzzle pieces that I would need to see.”

End 00:46:03

Start 00:53:08

Alex Tsakiris: You go back to your story, right? Which is everybody’s story. “I’m unhappy. I’m not as happy as I think I should be. I’m not as happy as those TV ads tell me I can be. I want to be happier.”

So you have somewhat of a spiritual bent and maybe you have like an anti-religious bent like a lot of us do when somebody says meditation and you go, “Oh okay, meditation. What should I do?” And you go online, meditation. I know the Zen people meditate.” So you find the local Zen people that will let you come in and sit down and you start meditating or you start taking a yoga class and there’s all of this stuff that they’re saying around all of these things. So you wind up following it, in some cases for years and years and you wind up scratching your head and going, “You know what I really wanted, was I wanted to feel better. I wanted to feel more a sense of wellbeing. Am I really getting there with that?”

I think that’s what I read out of this aspect of spiritual salesmanship that I think  you’re directly debunking, which is to say, “If this is what you say you want and we can measure it in these ways, then why wouldn’t we want to, as directly as possible, try and achieve that? What’s wrong with that?”

Jeffery Martin: I agree, yeah, absolutely. And I would say, one of the problems with it, where the spiritual salesmanship I think comes in, is in the sales process. When I talk about what fundamental wellbeing is, it’s pretty much the opposite of the normal sense of self. So, if you’re in your normal sense of self and I’m trying to convince you that fundamental wellbeing is where it’s at, it sounds thoroughly undesirable to your normal sense of self.

End 00:54:52

Start 01:32:11

Jeffery Martin: I know one of the things that Russ Targ has I’m sure talked about publicly, this can’t be a secret, is that he basically took this clock off of his mantle one day and put some mirrors on it. He then bolted some lasers off of those mirrors and then, sort of put it behind a class panel at one end of the room and he brought people in and he said, “Make the pendulum move,” which was one of those rotational, not like left, right pendulums, but like one of those rotational pendulums on a mantle clock. He was like, “Make those move,” and he’d set up lasers to basically detect even the slightest movement, because he’s a laser physicist, bouncing off the mirrors. And this was government funded research to the tune of many, many millions of dollars, down here Palo Alto, California.

And one day, one of the research subjects who thought that this was just the most ludicrous thing that he’d ever been assigned to, as part of his internship at SRI, one day he’s sitting there and low and behold the thing moves and he learns how to move it. When asked about, “What was that like for you?” He described the same thing. He described, “It was a sense of a disillusion of my individualized sense of self and a self of merging with the apparatus and then somehow I could seem to affect it.”

—

Thanks again to Dr Jeffery Martin for joining me today on Skeptiko. One question I’d had to tee up from this interview is, has he done it? Has he cracked the code? Is this the answer? Could there be such an answer to this enlightenment transcendent awakening kind of thing? Has he at least advanced the ball in a direction that we all want to take things? What do you think? Let me know.

0:00 – 0:07 today’s guest has a new book titled the

0:03 – 0:09 finders now let me read you a couple of

0:07 – 0:11 blurbs from the back of this book the

0:09 – 0:15 first is from renowned neuropsychiatry

0:11 – 0:18 dr. Peter fennec if a Nobel Prize

0:15 – 0:21 existed for psychology the work done by

0:18 – 0:24 dr. Jeffrey Martin and his team would be

0:21 – 0:26 a strong contender again that’s from

0:24 – 0:29 Peter fennec next from well-known

0:26 – 0:33 consciousness researcher dr. Alan Combs

0:29 – 0:38 in this book dr. Martin takes his place

0:33 – 0:40 beside William James and Abram as low to

0:38 – 0:43 give us one of the most important and

0:40 – 0:47 groundbreaking works on consciousness in

0:43 – 0:49 human potential heady stuff dr. Jeffrey

0:47 – 0:51 Martin welcome back to skeptic oh so

0:49 – 0:53 great to have you here thanks so much

0:51 – 0:55 it’s great to be here it’s wonderful to

0:53 – 0:57 see you again likewise and I’m not

0:55 – 1:00 really trying to make light of that at

0:57 – 1:05 all I think that that really puts this

1:00 – 1:09 in context whether you agree with those

1:05 – 1:13 blurbs or not their blurbs unlike my

1:09 – 1:17 clerks I’ve read Nobel Prize William

1:13 – 1:19 James Maslow what does that feel like

1:17 – 1:22 for you we’re gonna talk about this

1:19 – 1:24 finders course we had you on a few years

1:22 – 1:26 ago you were in the middle of it you had

1:24 – 1:29 it up and going and it was running but

1:26 – 1:34 it just keeps gaining a lot of momentum

1:29 – 1:36 what’s going on Jeffrey Martin well of

1:34 – 1:39 course most of those people we’ve had

1:36 – 1:44 relationships with for you know over ten

1:39 – 1:46 years and so they’ve been trying their

1:44 – 1:48 very best to get us to put out more and

1:46 – 1:51 more and more information from our data

1:48 – 1:55 for a very long time so basically people

1:51 – 1:56 have been super excited and thrilled you

1:55 – 1:60 know when they got a copy of that book

1:56 – 2:03 in their hands because you know they’ve

1:60 – 2:05 been waiting for it frankly for so long

2:03 – 2:07 and so if you actually if you go to the

2:05 – 2:09 finders book calm I think it’s the

2:07 – 2:11 website you’ll see you can see even more

2:09 – 2:13 I mean it’s it’s a crazy array of people

2:11 – 2:15 from the

2:13 – 2:19 of the transpersonal psychology

2:15 – 2:22 association – Deepak Chopra – you know

2:19 – 2:25 Peter Fenwick like you said – just sort

2:22 – 2:28 of you name it Andy Newberg I mean

2:25 – 2:32 there’s like no corner of this world

2:28 – 2:34 that is sort of left out which is you

2:32 – 2:35 know wonderful we’re super grateful for

2:34 – 2:38 that but of course these have been

2:35 – 2:40 people that we’ve you know generally

2:38 – 2:43 worked in some way with for a very very

2:40 – 2:45 long time interfaced with and been

2:43 – 2:48 involved in either their research or

2:45 – 2:51 their in our research or both so these

2:48 – 2:54 it’s you know it’s a it’s a set of

2:51 – 2:58 long-standing relationships where we’re

2:54 – 3:01 absolutely as enthusiastic about them

2:58 – 3:03 and what they do with their research and

3:01 – 3:04 their work as we are with our is that

3:03 – 3:09 the one that you know the one decision

3:04 – 3:12 that we made actually was to go with

3:09 – 3:14 testimonials that were primarily from

3:12 – 3:17 people that were involved on the science

3:14 – 3:20 yes let me jump in there though because

3:17 – 3:22 I’m afraid that I may have jumped people

3:20 – 3:26 right into the middle of this thing and

3:22 – 3:29 we need to maybe back up who is for

3:26 – 3:32 those folks who don’t remember who is

3:29 – 3:35 dr. Jeffrey Martin and what is this

3:32 – 3:37 finders thing about that’s a good

3:35 – 3:39 question

3:37 – 3:41 you know it’s funny I don’t feel that

3:39 – 3:44 relevant in the whole thing ironically I

3:41 – 3:47 feel like I’ve sort of just been taken

3:44 – 3:48 along on this journey that started about

3:47 – 3:50 twelve years ago really it started I

3:48 – 3:52 would say about 15 years ago I was

3:50 – 3:54 researching things like synchronicity

3:52 – 3:57 and whatnot back then I was primarily an

3:54 – 4:01 entrepreneur not so much a researcher

3:57 – 4:03 and I you know built a bunch of

4:01 – 4:08 companies and done all sorts of stuff in

4:03 – 4:11 the media but for all of that success

4:08 – 4:13 fundamentally I I was not unhappy but it

4:11 – 4:15 just seemed like there were a lot of

4:13 – 4:17 people that were happier than I was and

4:15 – 4:21 given that I was working you know all

4:17 – 4:22 day I felt quite hard and that I’d done

4:21 – 4:24 everything that I’d been told it was

4:22 – 4:25 supposed to be the things that made you

4:24 – 4:27 very happy

4:25 – 4:30 it didn’t seem really fair

4:27 – 4:31 I wasn’t happy right or that there were

4:30 – 4:36 all these other people that were happy

4:31 – 4:39 or that I was and so I really sort of

4:36 – 4:44 set out on a quest to figure that out

4:39 – 4:46 and that you know here we are over a

4:44 – 4:49 dozen years later but a dozen years into

4:46 – 4:50 this project and so up to that point

4:49 – 4:52 I’ve done what everybody had done right

4:50 – 4:54 I mean I take it a zillion seminars I’d

4:52 – 4:57 read my way through all of the world’s

4:54 – 5:01 philosophies and religions and practiced

4:57 – 5:04 stuff here and there and you know I mean

5:01 – 5:05 I was decades into that type of search

5:04 – 5:07 for wellbeing and I’d sort of come to

5:05 – 5:10 the place where I felt like there really

5:07 – 5:12 weren’t any answers in any of those

5:10 – 5:14 directions I had given up on all of that

5:12 – 5:17 for all of that you know intense amount

5:14 – 5:19 of effort and it just occurred to me

5:17 – 5:23 that you know I probably was either

5:19 – 5:25 gonna take one of a few tracks at that

5:23 – 5:27 time one of the world’s largest media

5:25 – 5:29 company has had a senior executive

5:27 – 5:32 position open to sort of consolidate and

5:29 – 5:33 invent the next generation of media so I

5:32 – 5:35 was thinking about that offer which

5:33 – 5:36 would have seen me going to New York

5:35 – 5:38 which was not where the power base of

5:36 – 5:39 that company was and said that didn’t

5:38 – 5:40 seem like politically the best decision

5:39 – 5:43 but it did seem like an interesting job

5:40 – 5:48 right or continue to do the same thing

5:43 – 5:50 with my companies or really just saying

5:48 – 5:52 you know I’ve got to make a major life

5:50 – 5:54 shift here and go try to figure this out

5:52 – 5:56 which was exactly what I did and so I

5:54 – 5:59 really just sort of liquidated

5:56 – 6:02 everything and I went back to school and

5:59 – 6:04 I picked up training and neuroscience

6:02 – 6:07 and psychology and qualitative research

6:04 – 6:09 I tried to go to start of the best

6:07 – 6:14 institutions for each one of those

6:09 – 6:16 different things and then from there set

6:14 – 6:18 out on this course of research are

6:16 – 6:20 trying to find the happiest people that

6:18 – 6:22 I could to see if I could possibly

6:20 – 6:25 become one of them I’d join their ranks

6:22 – 6:26 and you’re leaving a couple of parts out

6:25 – 6:28 of the story that we kind of cover more

6:26 – 6:30 in the first interview so I don’t want

6:28 – 6:33 to rehash all that but one is that you

6:30 – 6:34 have a certain amount of baggage that

6:33 – 6:36 you’re bringing with you from a

6:34 – 6:39 spiritual standpoint in terms of your

6:36 – 6:41 upbringing and we all do but but that’s

6:39 – 6:44 there for you and

6:41 – 6:46 that’s really cool and number two is

6:44 – 6:48 you’re putting out there pretty good

6:46 – 6:50 about who you are but you’re still in a

6:48 – 6:52 way being humble I mean you’ve done some

6:50 – 6:54 pretty amazing things before this you

6:52 – 6:57 know and you’ve written and you’ve

6:54 – 6:59 accomplished both in the business world

6:57 – 7:01 as well as kind of in some of these

6:59 – 7:03 other worlds and and then I guess the

7:01 – 7:04 other thing is you know you get into and

7:03 – 7:07 you’re gonna be a social scientist right

7:04 – 7:09 so all of a sudden you’re at Harvard and

7:07 – 7:13 you’re read over on the west coast we’re

7:09 – 7:14 at Cal at CIS CIS you know number I

7:13 – 7:16 think which is I think the number one

7:14 – 7:17 chronic qualitative school in the world

7:16 – 7:21 for qualitative research you know you

7:17 – 7:24 just plow into this stuff that everyone

7:21 – 7:29 has looked at and said somebody needs to

7:24 – 7:30 do this I think and you do it and now

7:29 – 7:36 you’ve done it

7:30 – 7:39 so or we’re still doing it yeah but I

7:36 – 7:41 just want to add that it’s quite an

7:39 – 7:44 amazing journey that you’ve been on just

7:41 – 7:46 amazing it is I I can’t disagree at all

7:44 – 7:49 it’s been an incredible journey you know

7:46 – 7:51 I feel like life has just sort of pulled

7:49 – 7:54 me along like I’ve just sort of been

7:51 – 7:56 grabbing on to this tale that’s just you

7:54 – 7:58 know running at full speed attached to

7:56 – 7:60 some sort of creature

7:58 – 8:02 I’m just getting sort of pulled and

7:60 – 8:05 pulled and pulled and pulled and pulled

8:02 – 8:07 further and further and further and in

8:05 – 8:08 this case this rabbit hole I mean before

8:07 – 8:11 that yeah it was a you know it was a

8:08 – 8:13 bunch of other things whether it was you

8:11 – 8:15 know I was instrumental I think you

8:13 – 8:17 could easily say in the digital

8:15 – 8:18 television revolution early on and

8:17 – 8:21 there’s all sorts of things like that so

8:18 – 8:23 yeah I’ve had a pretty interesting track

8:21 – 8:24 record I liked I you know it’s

8:23 – 8:26 interesting I was talking to somebody

8:24 – 8:27 the other day and they were like you

8:26 – 8:29 know if you look back it’s it’s kind of

8:27 – 8:30 fascinating because you’ve just sort of

8:29 – 8:32 consistently been involved in these

8:30 – 8:35 projects that affect hundreds of

8:32 – 8:36 millions or billions of people and I was

8:35 – 8:39 thinking to myself gosh I sure hope this

8:36 – 8:42 is another one like that hope that

8:39 – 8:44 wasn’t broken that chain of events was

8:42 – 8:46 it broken when I shifted my life a dozen

8:44 – 8:48 years ago and and headed in this

8:46 – 8:49 direction we’ll see because I think this

8:48 – 8:52 is the one thing you know it wasn’t

8:49 – 8:53 wasn’t any of the media stuff it wasn’t

8:52 – 8:54 any of the computer stuff it wasn’t any

8:53 – 8:56 of the business stuff

8:54 – 8:60 wasn’t any of the investing stuff wasn’t

8:56 – 9:03 into that stuff that I think really

8:60 – 9:05 needed to be as widely accessible as

9:03 – 9:07 humanly possible I think this is the

9:05 – 9:11 stuff that needs to be as widely

9:07 – 9:13 accessible as humanly possible and so

9:11 – 9:15 you know we’re working on that I think

9:13 – 9:17 we’re a long way from that at this point

9:15 – 9:18 but we’re getting up every day and

9:17 – 9:20 working on it that’s for sure

9:18 – 9:22 well that’s an incredible vision and I

9:20 – 9:24 remember the first time that we met

9:22 – 9:27 which is now probably five years ago I

9:24 – 9:29 can’t even count but that was your

9:27 – 9:31 vision right then and it just struck me

9:29 – 9:33 and it was awesome I think it was

9:31 – 9:35 somebody needs to have that vision but

9:33 – 9:37 your vision was you’re sitting around

9:35 – 9:40 with a bunch of people say hey man come

9:37 – 9:42 check out my little song guy here and

9:40 – 9:45 let’s get a few people together to do a

9:42 – 9:47 course and Jeffrey Martin’s going yeah

9:45 – 9:49 but what if we turned on a billion

9:47 – 9:52 people you know what a billion people

9:49 – 9:55 woke up what would that be like how

9:52 – 9:56 would that be what would the economic

9:55 – 9:59 model for that be what would the

9:56 – 10:03 technology model for that be what would

9:59 – 10:05 the data from that be you know what I

10:03 – 10:08 mean and not talking about it in some

10:05 – 10:11 new agey kind of the consciousness of

10:08 – 10:15 the planet shifting but more from a kind

10:11 – 10:17 of Silicon Valley marketing put it in a

10:15 – 10:21 spreadsheet kind of thing know what

10:17 – 10:25 would that mean if a billion people made

10:21 – 10:26 this kind of transition that we say we

10:25 – 10:28 can measure so we say we can measure

10:26 – 10:30 these kind of things like well being in

10:28 – 10:33 these different ways and we all accept

10:30 – 10:36 that that we can to some extent and then

10:33 – 10:39 you’re saying well what if that shifted

10:36 – 10:43 this way for a billion people that’s

10:39 – 10:45 pretty audacious but you’ve been true to

10:43 – 10:48 it you’ve been true to it from the very

10:45 – 10:50 beginning that said recap for people

10:48 – 10:54 because I think it’s really important if

10:50 – 10:57 someone did nothing other than the first

10:54 – 10:59 phase of this work it would have been a

10:57 – 11:01 huge contribution huge contribution the

10:59 – 11:02 contribution that everyone sits back and

11:01 – 11:04 says well somebody should do that

11:02 – 11:06 somebody should do that somebody should

11:04 – 11:08 do that and you did it in terms of going

11:06 – 11:11 and to all these

11:08 – 11:13 communities that say they nurture this

11:11 – 11:16 enlightenment awakening thing and saying

11:13 – 11:17 okay great who are they who are the

11:16 – 11:19 people among your community who have

11:17 – 11:20 achieved that and then you went and

11:19 – 11:22 talked to them and now how many of those

11:20 – 11:24 people this has been years ago it is at

11:22 – 11:27 the beginning your research but how many

11:24 – 11:31 of those people have you talked to and

11:27 – 11:32 systematically tried to understand what

11:31 – 11:34 they’re doing which is phase one we’re

11:32 – 11:38 not going to get into Phase two yet but

11:34 – 11:41 yeah phase one involved in some cases

11:38 – 11:42 those long format interviews the six to

11:41 – 11:44 twelve hour really digging in interviews

11:42 – 11:46 some cases repeating those four people

11:44 – 11:48 so we have some longitudinal research

11:46 – 11:52 subjects that we still you know we’ll

11:48 – 11:55 check in with to this day at an in depth

11:52 – 11:57 kind of way and then you know a lot of

11:55 – 11:59 that was giving people a lot of the gold

11:57 – 12:01 standard psychology measures that were

11:59 – 12:03 out there across the wide range of sub

12:01 – 12:05 psychology disciplines from well-being

12:03 – 12:07 and positive psychology type stuff to

12:05 – 12:11 developmental psychology personality

12:07 – 12:11 psychology psychopathology stuff you

12:11 – 12:14 name it

12:11 – 12:17 and also physiological measurement so

12:14 – 12:24 lots of brain stuff heart rate you know

12:17 – 12:26 breath breath rate breath gases GSR you

12:24 – 12:28 know sort of you name it even one thing

12:26 – 12:30 that we haven’t made it to yet I think

12:28 – 12:31 even when I talked to you last I was

12:30 – 12:33 sort of hoping to make it to there

12:31 – 12:35 because my friend Deepak Chopra but

12:33 – 12:37 harping on me about it at the time he’s

12:35 – 12:38 an MD you know he’s a doctor and he’s

12:37 – 12:40 still and he’s still a doctor like

12:38 – 12:42 people think of him as like this author

12:40 – 12:45 or whatever else but at heart I mean

12:42 – 12:46 he’s still basically a physician and so

12:45 – 12:49 he was like you know you need to collect

12:46 – 12:50 blood on these people and all of that

12:49 – 12:51 and we actually have never gotten around

12:50 – 12:53 to that I would still like to get around

12:51 – 12:54 to looking at genetics and looking at

12:53 – 12:56 genetic changes and looking at blood

12:54 – 12:58 changes and stuff like that but you know

12:56 – 13:01 I’m sort of more on the neuroscience

12:58 – 13:04 electrons side for the horrible not so

13:01 – 13:06 much at the wet lab side of the world so

13:04 – 13:09 so yeah we did all of that with it was

13:06 – 13:12 about 1,200 people who participated in

13:09 – 13:14 some way in that initial phase of the

13:12 – 13:15 project what we call phase one of the

13:14 – 13:18 research projects it was a lot of people

13:15 – 13:20 I was across every you know I think

13:18 – 13:21 across as far as I can tell

13:20 – 13:25 across every major

13:21 – 13:28 most major major issue Irish you know

13:25 – 13:29 spiritual and religious traditions but

13:28 – 13:31 also beyond that

13:29 – 13:35 okay let’s throw some out traditional

13:31 – 13:37 Christian Catholic kind of did you hit

13:35 – 13:39 that absolutely you know we had all the

13:37 – 13:41 Abrahamic traditions someone who

13:39 – 13:43 considers himself a Christian mystic did

13:41 – 13:44 you have any of those in there oh yeah

13:43 – 13:46 for sure and they were they were

13:44 – 13:48 interesting because you know the funny

13:46 – 13:49 thing about the Abrahamic traditions is

13:48 – 13:53 that the Mystics are pushed to the

13:49 – 13:56 margins and you know like they’re never

13:53 – 13:59 gonna get on Christian TV or you know

13:56 – 14:02 whatever right they’re like I’m so

13:59 – 14:05 completely blackballed that it’s amazing

14:02 – 14:07 and I didn’t know that until I started

14:05 – 14:08 interviewing them it was fascinating to

14:07 – 14:10 find that out you know yeah yeah I’m not

14:08 – 14:13 trying to cut that off I’m just trying

14:10 – 14:16 to give people a sense because you say

14:13 – 14:18 that and I in some ways you’re so

14:16 – 14:22 comfortable saying it that it doesn’t

14:18 – 14:25 fully capture what I envision it being

14:22 – 14:28 like for you to set up these long-form

14:25 – 14:32 six-hour interviews and now you’re

14:28 – 14:35 talking to a Zen master of a particular

14:32 – 14:38 branch of Zen Buddhism that’s different

14:35 – 14:40 from this other slightly different one

14:38 – 14:43 over here in this Korean one and this

14:40 – 14:46 Vietnamese and you’re talking to all of

14:43 – 14:49 them in comparing and contrasting and

14:46 – 14:53 nexuses Sufi mr. annexes I mean give

14:49 – 14:54 people just a sense of how broad this is

14:53 – 14:56 there’s so there are two interesting

14:54 – 14:59 things about that the first is just how

14:56 – 15:02 incredibly different they are within the

14:59 – 15:05 same tradition right and so like I

15:02 – 15:08 remember tera vaada Buddhism was you

15:05 – 15:09 know this fascinating one because it

15:08 – 15:11 turned out that there were a lot of

15:09 – 15:14 American tera vaada Buddhist teachers

15:11 – 15:16 which made it really convenient right

15:14 – 15:17 because language barriers are brutal

15:16 – 15:20 when you’re trying to get at someone’s

15:17 – 15:22 internal phenomenology and so I was like

15:20 – 15:24 super grateful that we hit this version

15:22 – 15:26 of Buddhism where there were lots of a

15:24 – 15:28 lots of people who spoke English as

15:26 – 15:31 their first language that she could go

15:28 – 15:33 talk to but what was very you know

15:31 – 15:35 frustrating about that is that like

15:33 – 15:35 everyone that you talked to they all had

15:35 – 15:38 the same

15:35 – 15:40 so it was all like you know arising and

15:38 – 15:42 passing away and stream entry and first

15:40 – 15:44 path and all that stuff but like you

15:42 – 15:46 would ask them okay well what is your

15:44 – 15:47 phenomenological set of characteristics

15:46 – 15:49 for determining someone who’s reached

15:47 – 15:52 first path or whatever writer had stream

15:49 – 15:54 entry or whatever and like they were

15:52 – 15:56 just so totally different like one

15:54 – 15:58 person’s list for a rising and passing

15:56 – 15:60 away match to another person’s list for

15:58 – 16:02 stream entry or whatever else and you

15:60 – 16:04 just got this sense like you know holy

16:02 – 16:06 cow this is kind of nuts so there was a

16:04 – 16:07 lot of difficulty around stuff like that

16:06 – 16:09 you forget about cross tradition it’s

16:07 – 16:11 like within the same tradition it was

16:09 – 16:14 and it makes sense right because you’re

16:11 – 16:17 trying to interpret these texts that are

16:14 – 16:18 a zillion years old right I mean I

16:17 – 16:20 there’s this fascinating dissertation

16:18 – 16:22 done by this lady named Beryl Seder

16:20 – 16:23 well who’s I hope I’m pronouncing that

16:22 – 16:25 right because I’ve never actually heard

16:23 – 16:26 it pronounced but it was from one of the

16:25 – 16:28 universities in Pennsylvania and she

16:26 – 16:30 looked at the new thought movement in

16:28 – 16:33 America and she was a period historian

16:30 – 16:35 right and so she just she was interested

16:33 – 16:38 in like women’s power dynamics within

16:35 – 16:40 society and for whatever bizarre reason

16:38 – 16:42 she wound up picking the new thought

16:40 – 16:45 movement as the lens to look at that

16:42 – 16:48 through for this very hardcore period

16:45 – 16:50 historian style dissertation so I ran

16:48 – 16:53 across that when I was researching the

16:50 – 16:55 self-help community prior to researching

16:53 – 16:56 all of this stuff I was looking at his

16:55 – 16:58 self up community mostly because I was

16:56 – 17:00 trying to figure out what I should use

16:58 – 17:02 myself you know what what actually might

17:00 – 17:04 work in the self-help Commuter to make

17:02 – 17:07 me happier right and so I ran across

17:04 – 17:09 this this dissertation on the new

17:07 – 17:11 thought movement and now the new thought

17:09 – 17:15 movement occurred like 150 years ago to

17:11 – 17:18 100 years ago or so you know roughly and

17:15 – 17:21 so and it occurred in America and it

17:18 – 17:24 occurred in English right and so in

17:21 – 17:25 theory any of us ought to be able to

17:24 – 17:27 pick up one of those books and

17:25 – 17:29 understand what the heck they’re saying

17:27 – 17:31 and of course that’s the it’s these are

17:29 – 17:33 all the books and all the works that

17:31 – 17:35 form the foundation of the modern new

17:33 – 17:37 thought movement and a lot of some

17:35 – 17:39 degree the New Age movement and the

17:37 – 17:40 power of thought movement in the secret

17:39 – 17:43 and all of them right they all point

17:40 – 17:45 back to these people and I think you

17:43 – 17:47 know if you go back and you read those

17:45 – 17:49 books you think to yourself I totally

17:47 – 17:51 understand this no prob

17:49 – 17:54 right but then you read Barrels

17:51 – 17:56 dissertation and you realize that you

17:54 – 17:58 don’t understand anything that you’re

17:56 – 18:02 reading that it is embedded in a

17:58 – 18:06 socio-economic context that you are so

18:02 – 18:09 completely removed from in 2019 you know

18:06 – 18:11 I mean the late 1800s and how they were

18:09 – 18:12 thinking about spirit being in these

18:11 – 18:14 debates that they were having around

18:12 – 18:16 with spirit infused and matter or was it

18:14 – 18:17 separate from manner and how did that

18:16 – 18:20 relate to women’s power dynamics and

18:17 – 18:22 society and how is that language all

18:20 – 18:23 coded through all of these texts in ways

18:22 – 18:26 that you and I would never pick up the

18:23 – 18:28 nuances of so we so we read those books

18:26 – 18:29 and we’re like oh we totally understand

18:28 – 18:31 these and the reality is we don’t

18:29 – 18:32 understand them at all that’s what you

18:31 – 18:34 learned from reading her dissertation is

18:32 – 18:36 you can’t read these people’s books in

18:34 – 18:39 English from like a hundred years ago

18:36 – 18:41 and understand their points and

18:39 – 18:42 understand the nuances of their points

18:41 – 18:43 and so I don’t think it’s surprising

18:42 – 18:45 that if you sit down with a bunch of

18:43 – 18:48 Tara vadas Buddhist teachers in the West

18:45 – 18:50 and they’re deriving their ideas from

18:48 – 18:52 books that are hundreds of years old

18:50 – 18:54 written in a non-english language that

18:52 – 18:56 they can’t come to some sort of

18:54 – 18:59 agreement on what the phenomenology

18:56 – 19:00 should be of their various stages or

18:59 – 19:03 even what the end point should look like

19:00 – 19:05 of their thing or whatever else right

19:03 – 19:06 because we can’t understand stuff that

19:05 – 19:09 was written a hundred years ago for

19:06 – 19:11 crying out loud in our own language you

19:09 – 19:13 and it seems like it should be clear as

19:11 – 19:15 day when we read it you know until you

19:13 – 19:17 read a period scholars work that just

19:15 – 19:19 teaches you you you don’t have any idea

19:17 – 19:22 what you’re actually looking at so I you

19:19 – 19:24 know I think these it’s it’s things like

19:22 – 19:25 that that help me to contextualize and

19:24 – 19:28 you know just sort of be cool with it

19:25 – 19:30 when I sit down with folks because I

19:28 – 19:31 just sort of understand the situation

19:30 – 19:34 that they’re in even if they don’t

19:31 – 19:35 necessarily understand the situation

19:34 – 19:36 that they’re and you know you go talk to

19:35 – 19:38 a bunch of new thought people today and

19:36 – 19:39 they all think that they totally

19:38 – 19:40 understand that old New Thought

19:39 – 19:43 literature you know they’re never gonna

19:40 – 19:45 run across barrel stators dissertation

19:43 – 19:46 for God’s sakes right or a book she

19:45 – 19:48 actually turned it into a book it’s

19:46 – 19:49 watered down a little bit in the book

19:48 – 19:52 but it’s still a powerful book it’s

19:49 – 19:53 called each mind a kingdom or every mind

19:52 – 19:55 a kingdom or something like that

19:53 – 19:57 if you’re into that kind of thing man

19:55 – 19:59 that’s like an amazing book well I’m

19:57 – 20:03 glad that you’re into that kind of thing

19:59 – 20:06 I do and I think that’s maybe the

20:03 – 20:10 of this work that you’re doing because

20:06 – 20:13 you do approach it so much like a social

20:10 – 20:17 scientist on one hand and then on the

20:13 – 20:20 other hand you’re fully in as a subject

20:17 – 20:24 as a seeker and you wear those two hats

20:20 – 20:26 and you wear of them quite bravely and I

20:24 – 20:27 love that about you

20:26 – 20:30 the methodology that you were just

20:27 – 20:31 mentioning the more I learn about your

20:30 – 20:33 methodology and some of the

20:31 – 20:35 presentations you’ve done and talk about

20:33 – 20:38 it the you know we could talk probably

20:35 – 20:40 for hours and some of the subtleties of

20:38 – 20:42 what you’ve discovered there and how

20:40 – 20:44 that is important in understanding your

20:42 – 20:47 work but I just threw out a couple is

20:44 – 20:48 one I love these talks that you give and

20:47 – 20:50 you can see you get pretty passionate

20:48 – 20:53 about some of these things but you’ll

20:50 – 20:56 talk about trusting the current

20:53 – 20:60 experience of that participant in these

20:56 – 21:01 surveys so now what they thought 30

20:60 – 21:03 years ago and they started their

21:01 – 21:06 practice but what they experienced and

21:03 – 21:08 think now and maybe you can talk to why

21:06 – 21:13 that’s important and also like you just

21:08 – 21:15 mentioned separating that from what

21:13 – 21:18 they’re supposed to believe what their

21:15 – 21:22 tradition teaches what their texts teach

21:18 – 21:25 and you seem to take great pains to

21:22 – 21:27 really develop a methodology that needed

21:25 – 21:30 to focus on the data in a particular way

21:27 – 21:32 in order to get some of the questions

21:30 – 21:34 that you wanted answered and I just

21:32 – 21:35 think that’s awesome do you want to

21:34 – 21:38 speak to that at all

21:35 – 21:39 sure I’m happy to speak to that anything

21:38 – 21:41 you really want to talk about it’s great

21:39 – 21:44 that’s right

21:41 – 21:47 so I intentionally did not read anything

21:44 – 21:49 you know I haven’t read any of my

21:47 – 21:51 subjects books even though I often would

21:49 – 21:53 leave their houses with their books you

21:51 – 21:54 know they would give me as a gift they

21:53 – 21:57 could hoping that I would read it

21:54 – 21:59 probably but I didn’t read any of them

21:57 – 22:02 and the reason that I didn’t read any of

21:59 – 22:04 them is because our project has a very

22:02 – 22:06 specific philosophy around that in terms

22:04 – 22:09 of a scientific philosophy if you will

22:06 – 22:11 and that is that what I really want to

22:09 – 22:14 get at is lived experience right and so

22:11 – 22:16 I don’t I know that I cannot I know just

22:14 – 22:17 from sitting down if it takes six to

22:16 – 22:21 twelve hours

22:17 – 22:23 to get to a point where you think that

22:21 – 22:26 you probably understand enough of

22:23 – 22:28 someone’s phenomenology and they spend

22:26 – 22:30 the first atleast hour or two talking

22:28 – 22:32 exactly like they would in a book you

22:30 – 22:34 know and that’s not enough to really

22:32 – 22:38 understand therefore not that it takes

22:34 – 22:39 hours from that point to really come to

22:38 – 22:42 some sort of meaningful understanding

22:39 – 22:44 that just you know that tells me that

22:42 – 22:45 maybe I should read their books before I

22:44 – 22:47 sit down with them as a starting point

22:45 – 22:48 but I don’t even do that because it’s

22:47 – 22:50 frozen in time at some point right who

22:48 – 22:52 knows how many years ago a book was

22:50 – 22:53 written I need to know who they are now

22:52 – 22:56 I need to understand their phenomenology

22:53 – 22:60 now when you say phenomenology bring

22:56 – 23:02 that down to a concrete level that any

22:60 – 23:05 spiritual seeker quote-unquote listening

23:02 – 23:08 to this show would understand I mean

23:05 – 23:10 that’s kind of a science eternam huh and

23:08 – 23:12 if it’s in a philosophy term of course

23:10 – 23:15 it’s also used in philosophy that comes

23:12 – 23:17 out of philosophy but basically it’s all

23:15 – 23:19 that means is trying to understand

23:17 – 23:21 someone’s internal experience really

23:19 – 23:24 just trying to get your arms as much as

23:21 – 23:26 you possibly can with as much accuracy

23:24 – 23:29 and as much comprehensiveness around

23:26 – 23:32 someone’s internal way that they are

23:29 – 23:36 experiencing feeling of oneness feeling

23:32 – 23:39 of internal peace ability to shut down

23:36 – 23:41 the mind all these things we hear and

23:39 – 23:43 then you’re trying to as a social

23:41 – 23:46 scientist say okay what does that mean

23:43 – 23:48 to you not what does that mean in some

23:46 – 23:51 religious context or spiritual context

23:48 – 23:53 but yeah how does that show up in your

23:51 – 23:56 moment to moment perception and I you

23:53 – 23:57 know it’s interesting because one of the

23:56 – 23:58 things what another one of the

23:57 – 24:00 fascinating things that we learned very

23:58 – 24:03 early on was that people are not

24:00 – 24:06 speaking in metaphor they are trying to

24:03 – 24:08 speak to you with as accurate a

24:06 – 24:10 description in language as they can of

24:08 – 24:12 their experience right and so like one

24:10 – 24:16 of the things that when they say oneness

24:12 – 24:18 like that is an accurate description to

24:16 – 24:20 them of their it’s as accurate as they

24:18 – 24:22 can get in language of their experience

24:20 – 24:24 it’s not some sort of metaphor right or

24:22 – 24:26 when they say when I transitioned it was

24:24 – 24:29 in an instant and it was almost like I

24:26 – 24:30 woke up from a dream right that’s that

24:29 – 24:34 that’s like as good

24:30 – 24:36 a concrete example as they can as they

24:34 – 24:38 feel like they can provide you as

24:36 – 24:40 another human being they’re not trying

24:38 – 24:42 to provide some metaphor some loosey

24:40 – 24:44 goosey things some get you in the

24:42 – 24:46 ballpark type of thing they’re like okay

24:44 – 24:49 searching my entire experience what is

24:46 – 24:51 the most concrete example that I could

24:49 – 24:53 provide to this person that I’m talking

24:51 – 24:55 to so one thing that’s interesting about

24:53 – 24:57 this population of people is that they

24:55 – 24:59 use their language typically very

24:57 – 25:01 precisely and very carefully and

24:59 – 25:04 thought-out very carefully and it’s

25:01 – 25:08 often it’s often an attempt to directly

25:04 – 25:09 convey their experience and then the

25:08 – 25:11 rest of the world sort of sees it

25:09 – 25:13 different than that which is sort of

25:11 – 25:15 funny right people often think Oh waking

25:13 – 25:18 up for a dream it’s like some metaphor

25:15 – 25:19 it’s like oh now my mind can spin off in

25:18 – 25:21 a thousand different ways that the

25:19 – 25:23 person might know they mean like when

25:21 – 25:26 you wake up in the morning and you were

25:23 – 25:28 having a dream and then suddenly you’re

25:26 – 25:29 not having a dream and you’re awake

25:28 – 25:32 they’re like that exact experience

25:29 – 25:34 that’s what I am referring that’s it’s

25:32 – 25:36 like that’s as close as I could

25:34 – 25:37 don’t spin it off into some sort of you

25:36 – 25:39 know what did I mean metaphorically

25:37 – 25:42 about waking up from a dream taking some

25:39 – 25:43 poetic license so it’s stuff like that

25:42 – 25:44 you know from a phenomenological

25:43 – 25:46 standpoint that you wind up discovering

25:44 – 25:48 I should say phenomenology of course

25:46 – 25:49 deals with anybody’s internal state not

25:48 – 25:52 just these people’s internal state it’s

25:49 – 25:53 it’s a method of inquiry into that but

25:52 – 25:55 yeah that’s the types of things that

25:53 – 25:57 these people would report obviously a

25:55 – 25:58 tremendous sense of peace you know

25:57 – 26:02 that’s really I think the most

25:58 – 26:04 fundamental thing for a long time I had

26:02 – 26:07 sort of this list of stuff that people

26:04 – 26:08 would add stuff to and I would cross

26:07 – 26:11 stuff off of and I was always looking

26:08 – 26:12 for the common denominator and I think

26:11 – 26:14 maybe the last time I was on the show I

26:12 – 26:16 don’t remember if I told this story but

26:14 – 26:18 you know this is one moment where I was

26:16 – 26:20 driving from a research interview in

26:18 – 26:22 Springfield Illinois up to another one

26:20 – 26:26 in Chicago and the person in Springfield

26:22 – 26:27 Illinois had crossed the very last item

26:26 – 26:31 that I thought was going to be a

26:27 – 26:33 commonality off of my list and it was I

26:31 – 26:36 was years into it at that point right

26:33 – 26:38 and it was just like this devastating

26:36 – 26:42 personal moment for me I was I mean I

26:38 – 26:43 remember I was like literally crying for

26:42 – 26:45 the first part of that drive

26:43 – 26:47 because of the impact and that sounds

26:45 – 26:49 ridiculous but I was like you know I

26:47 – 26:52 spent all these years I spent all this

26:49 – 26:54 money I’ve spent I’ve put in just my

26:52 – 26:57 heart and soul into this and it and that

26:54 – 26:60 last guy just basically made it fail it

26:57 – 27:01 was sort of what it felt like and then

26:60 – 27:04 by the end of that Drive by the time I

27:01 – 27:08 got to there’s a little outside Chicago

27:04 – 27:10 sort of in an Indiana suburb by the time

27:08 – 27:12 I reached there I’d sort of

27:10 – 27:13 recontextualize and I realized that I’d

27:12 – 27:16 been looking at the trees and had missed

27:13 – 27:19 the entire forest and so this list that

27:16 – 27:21 I had were a list of trees and they

27:19 – 27:23 caused me to miss this the overall

27:21 – 27:25 forest right and that the thing that was

27:23 – 27:28 common across all of these people was

27:25 – 27:31 sort of this fundamental shift in their

27:28 – 27:33 core psychology away from a sense of

27:31 – 27:36 discontentment that’s common certainly

27:33 – 27:38 was common in me at that time and it’s

27:36 – 27:40 common in most of the mainstream you

27:38 – 27:41 know population of humanity around the

27:40 – 27:43 world there’s just sort of this

27:41 – 27:44 fundamental sense of discontentment that

27:43 – 27:46 we all have at the root of our

27:44 – 27:48 psychology and it manifests in all kinds

27:46 – 27:50 of ways you know in the extremes it’s

27:48 – 27:53 fear and worry and you know anxiety and

27:50 – 27:55 stuff like that but it no matter who you

27:53 – 27:57 are no matter how great your life is you

27:55 – 27:60 still have the sense that something is

27:57 – 28:02 just not quite right and so you know

27:60 – 28:04 your mind is constantly trying to figure

28:02 – 28:06 that out and for a normal and this is

28:04 – 28:08 normal right this is what psychology

28:06 – 28:10 would consider normal and healthy your

28:08 – 28:12 mind is just sort of constantly trying

28:10 – 28:14 to figure this out you know and it’s

28:12 – 28:16 going it’s like okay well when I have

28:14 – 28:19 you know a Learjet

28:16 – 28:22 then I’ll finally be you know then that

28:19 – 28:24 that will finally be quenched right and

28:22 – 28:25 then you get the Learjet

28:24 – 28:27 right and you’re like happy for an hour

28:25 – 28:28 and a half or something and it’s

28:27 – 28:29 quenched for an hour and a half or

28:28 – 28:31 something right and then your mind is

28:29 – 28:36 like okay well the Learjet didn’t do it

28:31 – 28:39 I must need another child it’s just one

28:36 – 28:41 more child that I need and so let’s go

28:39 – 28:43 off insert in that goal right and it’s

28:41 – 28:45 like are like the normal human mind is

28:43 – 28:48 just constantly generating all of these

28:45 – 28:50 goals most of you know some human minds

28:48 – 28:53 generate very simple goals that can

28:50 – 28:54 constantly be achieved or maybe you know

28:53 – 28:57 you do get the Learjet if you have a

28:54 – 28:60 more complicated we have a more

28:57 – 29:02 sort of aggressive human mind whatever

28:60 – 29:03 but you know the more of these things

29:02 – 29:06 you get the more you sort of give up on

29:03 – 29:08 happiness I think it’s funny the most

29:06 – 29:10 accomplished people and I know I’ve just

29:08 – 29:12 had the privilege to interact with a lot

29:10 – 29:14 of people who sort of run the world and

29:12 – 29:15 they’re often the most unhappy people

29:14 – 29:17 that you can imagine because they’ve

29:15 – 29:19 sort of got everything you know it’s

29:17 – 29:22 like what goal have they not achieved in

29:19 – 29:24 their life by this point and they’ve

29:22 – 29:26 just given up on anything you know

29:24 – 29:29 filling that void or ending that

29:26 – 29:30 fundamental discontentment and so for

29:29 – 29:32 them it’s just you know mostly just full

29:30 – 29:34 steam ahead on the accomplishment track

29:32 – 29:36 because that’s what there is right and

29:34 – 29:38 at least the more things you win on the

29:36 – 29:40 more you get the little brief periods of

29:38 – 29:43 peace or whatever else whereas the

29:40 – 29:45 average person I think you know lots of

29:43 – 29:46 times they think you know they they they

29:45 – 29:48 have all of these cultural things that

29:46 – 29:51 that they’re told that they should get

29:48 – 29:53 maybe like a Learjet right and they’re

29:51 – 29:56 never going to get it and so they just

29:53 – 29:58 assume well I could have been happy if I

29:56 – 29:60 could have had some of those things

29:58 – 30:02 right and so they just sort of accept

29:60 – 30:03 their lot you know to some degree but

30:02 – 30:07 the reality is it’s just this

30:03 – 30:09 fundamental heart of human psychology of

30:07 – 30:11 traditional human psychology as it seems

30:09 – 30:13 to have evolved to this point and what

30:11 – 30:15 shifts with fundamental well-being is

30:13 – 30:16 the most amazing thing ever even though

30:15 – 30:18 it’s the most ordinary thing ever and of

30:16 – 30:20 course you hear people say phrases like

30:18 – 30:23 that and it’s very confusing I think to

30:20 – 30:25 the average person but what the it’s

30:23 – 30:26 it’s what’s so ordinary about it is

30:25 – 30:28 there’s just like this little shift that

30:26 – 30:31 happens way at the bottom of your

30:28 – 30:33 psychology away from that fundamental

30:31 – 30:34 sense of discontentment and towards a

30:33 – 30:38 sense that everything is really okay

30:34 – 30:43 when did you know that on that drive to

30:38 – 30:45 Chicago okay drive to Chicago you saw

30:43 – 30:49 the trees for something more than trees

30:45 – 30:53 for a forest and then you said wait a

30:49 – 30:56 minute I can maybe help people get to

30:53 – 30:59 the forest and that launches you on this

30:56 – 31:03 path of saying okay let’s create this

30:59 – 31:05 systematized approach to taking what

31:03 – 31:07 these people are doing generalizing and

31:05 – 31:10 turning into a course if you will and

31:07 – 31:11 then that becomes the focus of what you

31:10 – 31:14 do next

31:11 – 31:16 and you’ve now done that collected an

31:14 – 31:19 amazing amount of data all along again

31:16 – 31:22 the social scientist in you demands that

31:19 – 31:23 you measure measure measure because no

31:22 – 31:25 one else everyone else is talking about

31:23 – 31:27 this shit and they’re not measuring it

31:25 – 31:30 in a way that becomes really important

31:27 – 31:33 as the story goes on so bring this more

31:30 – 31:36 up-to-date than how that all unfolds so

31:33 – 31:38 basically the day came when phase 1

31:36 – 31:41 ended and phase 1 had been us talking to

31:38 – 31:43 people who had only experienced who had

31:41 – 31:46 already experienced this sometimes and

31:43 – 31:47 often times for decades you know though

31:46 – 31:49 we had people in the sample that were as

31:47 – 31:51 little as over just over a year which

31:49 – 31:52 was our minimum cutoff for persistence

31:51 – 31:55 we had to be in it for just over a year

31:52 – 31:57 persistently all the way up to decades

31:55 – 31:59 but mode yeah I can’t remember what our

31:57 – 32:01 average was I don’t talk about those

31:59 – 32:04 numbers as much anymore so they’re not

32:01 – 32:05 in my head for for many years but I mean

32:04 – 32:07 I want to say the average persistence

32:05 – 32:10 was like seven years or 12 years or

32:07 – 32:12 something like that and so you know most

32:10 – 32:17 of the sample had been in it for a while

32:12 – 32:20 and so what’s interesting is that the

32:17 – 32:24 the date well the day basically came

32:20 – 32:25 when post analysis was not enough you

32:24 – 32:28 know you want to know like what’s

32:25 – 32:30 actually changing in an individual who

32:28 – 32:31 were these people before it was very

32:30 – 32:33 clear to me that they were not able to

32:31 – 32:35 accurately remember or represent who

32:33 – 32:36 they were before you know one of the

32:35 – 32:37 things that we know about well-being

32:36 – 32:39 research in general is that when

32:37 – 32:41 somebody gets happier and if they have a

32:39 – 32:43 persistent shift to being happier they

32:41 – 32:46 sort of color their entire history with

32:43 – 32:48 that happiness you know it’s it’s

32:46 – 32:51 frustrating I think for people that that

32:48 – 32:53 make legit self-help project project

32:51 – 32:55 sort of products that actually do help

32:53 – 32:56 people because those people will often

32:55 – 32:57 get to the end of the process and

32:56 – 33:00 they’re clearly happier but they’ll

32:57 – 33:02 insist that they’re not you know it’s

33:00 – 33:05 because they’ve forgotten how unhappy

33:02 – 33:06 they were at the beginning of that of

33:05 – 33:08 going to that course or whatever it was

33:06 – 33:15 you know that shifted them so our human

33:08 – 33:16 system renormalize no way to know who

33:15 – 33:17 the hell these people were I mean they

33:16 – 33:19 were telling me their stories a little

33:17 – 33:20 bit about you know who they were before

33:19 – 33:24 but I just knew that I couldn’t believe

33:20 – 33:26 any of it except in broad strokes and so

33:24 – 33:27 came basically where we wanted a B data

33:26 – 33:30 you know where we wanted

33:27 – 33:32 before-and-after data and so that’s

33:30 – 33:37 where the finders course protocol came

33:32 – 33:38 from so we started I always believed

33:37 – 33:39 that we would get to this with brain

33:38 – 33:43 stimulation which is what we’re working

33:39 – 33:45 on right now hard core like weird that’s

33:43 – 33:46 our that’s one of our two most major

33:45 – 33:49 projects right now because the

33:46 – 33:53 technology is sort of finally there but

33:49 – 33:54 back back then five years ago it was

33:53 – 33:55 very clear and I would say six seven

33:54 – 33:58 years ago when we first started thinking

33:55 – 34:01 about these creating a protocol it was

33:58 – 34:04 very clear to me that brain stimulation

34:01 – 34:06 was not going to get there you know we

34:04 – 34:08 we tried everything at the time I was a

34:06 – 34:11 professor in Hong Kong for a year and

34:08 – 34:13 doing research interviews in Asia and

34:11 – 34:15 being in Hongkong I took advantage of

34:13 – 34:17 the you know reduced regulation and

34:15 – 34:19 litigious environment and all of that

34:17 – 34:20 and we just really went to town we had a

34:19 – 34:23 neuroscience lab there at Hong Kong

34:20 – 34:25 Polytechnic or the 64 channel AG system

34:23 – 34:28 and so we just really went to town

34:25 – 34:29 testing brain stem and it was just clear

34:28 – 34:30 that none of them were gonna reach the

34:29 – 34:33 regions of interest in the brain that

34:30 – 34:36 we’d previously identified using other

34:33 – 34:38 neuroscience work and so we went back

34:36 – 34:40 and we went to the questionnaires that

34:38 – 34:42 we had people fill out and all of the

34:40 – 34:44 data and just tried to find anything

34:42 – 34:46 that might help us get to a navy model

34:44 – 34:48 and this is gonna sound funny probably

34:46 – 34:51 to listeners I think it always sounds

34:48 – 34:53 funny to people but we asked a question

34:51 – 34:57 I mean no kidding right we asked the

34:53 – 34:60 question that was so what worked for you

34:57 – 35:03 right and people answered that question

34:60 – 35:06 right but I didn’t actually believe that

35:03 – 35:07 we would get accurate answers on that

35:06 – 35:09 question and the reason for that is

35:07 – 35:10 because one thing that I learned about

35:09 – 35:13 spiritual teachers by the time we were

35:10 – 35:15 doing serious data analysis was that

35:13 – 35:17 they really never taught or talked they

35:15 – 35:18 didn’t seem to they didn’t seem to teach

35:17 – 35:22 or talk much about the thing that

35:18 – 35:24 actually worked for them and so that’s I

35:22 – 35:25 know a little bit of a strange puzzle

35:24 – 35:30 because you would think that like if you

35:25 – 35:31 know what am I most admire and most

35:30 – 35:33 significant transition was from

35:31 – 35:36 something called headless way which

35:33 – 35:37 people can go look up so my own personal

35:36 – 35:38 shift of consciousness came from

35:37 – 35:41 something called headless

35:38 – 35:42 right a headless way sounds ridiculous

35:41 – 35:45 you know it’s basically like you

35:42 – 35:47 pointing at your face you know asking

35:45 – 35:48 yourself do I have a head I mean it

35:47 – 35:50 sounds like the most ludicrous method

35:48 – 35:52 ever right and so when I was

35:50 – 35:54 interviewing people you know I would be

35:52 – 35:56 like you know well tell me about your

35:54 – 35:58 background they oh you know 25 years of

35:56 – 35:60 you know this type of Tibetan meditation

35:58 – 36:02 and this other Buddhist meditation

35:60 – 36:03 before that and what I’m like oh is that

36:02 – 36:05 what transitioned you and they’re

36:03 – 36:06 they’re like and you would see it like

36:05 – 36:07 it almost like a deer in the headlights

36:06 – 36:09 right because they didn’t want to say it

36:07 – 36:11 was headless way and you want to say

36:09 – 36:12 that they spent 30 years sitting on a

36:11 – 36:15 cushion

36:12 – 36:17 you know torturing themselves and then

36:15 – 36:18 they pointed at their face one day and

36:17 – 36:21 that was the thing that transitioned

36:18 – 36:24 them to fundamental well-being right and

36:21 – 36:26 so and so I just didn’t I I never

36:24 – 36:27 bothered to look at the answers on that

36:26 – 36:28 question because I just didn’t think

36:27 – 36:30 that they would be accurate but they

36:28 – 36:34 actually did turn out to be accurate so

36:30 – 36:37 that was a bad mistake on my part and we

36:34 – 36:38 were able to sort those into a handful

36:37 – 36:40 of categories you could make it five or

36:38 – 36:42 six categories depending upon how you

36:40 – 36:43 want to think about these methods and

36:42 – 36:45 then we BIST basically started

36:43 – 36:46 systematically trying them out and it

36:45 – 36:49 turned out that they work for a large

36:46 – 36:52 percentage of people so that became the

36:49 – 36:54 protocol and that was a game changer for

36:52 – 36:57 us because then you could invest money

36:54 – 36:59 in research you know up to that point I

36:57 – 37:00 mean you can’t just say yeah I can’t

36:59 – 37:02 just go into a Buddhist community and

37:00 – 37:03 pick out who’s gonna transition next

37:02 – 37:05 week so that you can you know measure

37:03 – 37:07 them before and afterward so it would

37:05 – 37:10 have been an expensive and almost an

37:07 – 37:15 impossible proposition but having that

37:10 – 37:16 protocol made that possible and so then

37:15 – 37:19 we had a problem with the protocol of

37:16 – 37:22 people not doing it because it’s long

37:19 – 37:24 it’s four months it’s you know at least

37:22 – 37:26 an hour and a half to two and a half

37:24 – 37:27 hours a day I mean like you’ve got to

37:26 – 37:29 really want this

37:27 – 37:31 so when you say protocol let’s make sure

37:29 – 37:33 we understand there’s something out

37:31 – 37:36 there called the finders course you run

37:33 – 37:40 the finders course an online course that

37:36 – 37:43 is a combination of video and small

37:40 – 37:45 group sessions with different exercises

37:43 – 37:47 you’re doing protocols you’re following

37:45 – 37:51 both inside the group and individually

37:47 – 37:52 including meditation including positive

37:51 – 37:54 psychology

37:52 – 37:55 including all these things it’s broken

37:54 – 37:58 off it’s a 12-week

37:55 – 37:59 kind of program right I think 17 weeks

37:58 – 38:02 beginning to end now

37:59 – 38:05 okay 17 weeks there’s aftercare at the

38:02 – 38:06 end of it there’s also a lot of data

38:05 – 38:09 gathering so you’re gonna have to fill

38:06 – 38:11 out a bunch of forms at the beginning

38:09 – 38:13 that it’s gonna kind of like you just

38:11 – 38:15 said pinpoint where you’re at so you

38:13 – 38:17 can’t fudge the numbers and say I was

38:15 – 38:20 happy any of it you know back here when

38:17 – 38:23 you first did it we ran all the numbers

38:20 – 38:25 on all these standardized well-being

38:23 – 38:27 measures and this is where you’re at and

38:25 – 38:29 this is where you’re at now and that

38:27 – 38:32 might not matter to you but it matters

38:29 – 38:34 to us because again we’re also looking

38:32 – 38:36 at what does this mean for the planet

38:34 – 38:38 what does this mean for a billion people

38:36 – 38:40 and that’s always been a goal of this

38:38 – 38:44 and and that is at the time this was

38:40 – 38:47 just a research project but now I know

38:44 – 38:49 it’s really more of just a product that

38:47 – 38:52 we’re deciding to put out there you know

38:49 – 38:55 we reached a point not long ago where I

38:52 – 38:58 would say I mean it’s been with in

38:55 – 39:00 recent months of doing this interview

38:58 – 39:03 where we just don’t need anymore data

39:00 – 39:06 like that you know I mean we’ve got five

39:03 – 39:09 years of data you know like another

39:06 – 39:11 cohort of data added to that is not

39:09 – 39:13 going to make it more significant it’s

39:11 – 39:16 not going to increase the power or the

39:13 – 39:17 statistical power or effect sizes or

39:16 – 39:19 anything like that I mean we just we

39:17 – 39:22 basically just don’t need anymore

39:19 – 39:23 and so we’ve cut way back on the data

39:22 – 39:26 collection part of it and then the

39:23 – 39:28 question for us was do we kill it you

39:26 – 39:30 know or do we continue to make it

39:28 – 39:32 available frankly and we really thought

39:30 – 39:35 about it

39:32 – 39:36 and we decided you know this is as far

39:35 – 39:38 as I know the most effective thing

39:36 – 39:39 that’s out there so we probably

39:38 – 39:42 shouldn’t kill it

39:39 – 39:46 on the other hand we’re our research has

39:42 – 39:47 moved on to other areas and so so anyway

39:46 – 39:49 we’re keeping it out there and we’re in

39:47 – 39:51 the process of transitioning it into

39:49 – 39:53 literally just being an online course

39:51 – 39:55 essentially which is what we which is

39:53 – 39:56 what it looked like from the very

39:55 – 39:58 beginning but we never thought of it

39:56 – 39:60 that way and the reason it looked like

39:58 – 40:02 that was because the way we got people

39:60 – 40:04 to ultimately go all the way through it

40:02 – 40:06 was to make it into what looked like a

40:04 – 40:07 class instead of a psychology experiment

40:06 – 40:10 right I mean everybody that’s ever

40:07 – 40:11 taught psych 101 knows that even when

40:10 – 40:14 you’re even for extra credit

40:11 – 40:16 even for part of their grade you know

40:14 – 40:19 you still can’t get people to do like

40:16 – 40:23 middle of odds of experiments over the

40:19 – 40:24 course of you know a semester they still

40:23 – 40:26 will drop out of your experiments and

40:24 – 40:28 significant numbers it’s annoying as

40:26 – 40:30 that is and of course most psychology

40:28 – 40:31 research is when you read most

40:30 – 40:34 psychology papers they’re basically done

40:31 – 40:35 on undergraduates that are in a psych

40:34 – 40:37 101 class or something like that I mean

40:35 – 40:40 they never say that they very rarely

40:37 – 40:42 admit to that but the vast majority of

40:40 – 40:44 human psychology results are psych 101

40:42 – 40:46 students or whatever who are basically

40:44 – 40:48 forced to do it for part of their grade

40:46 – 40:50 or to get extra credit depending upon

40:48 – 40:51 the institution’s policy in the part of

40:50 – 40:55 the world and what the professor can get

40:51 – 40:58 away with for that from our perspective

40:55 – 41:00 what we decided to do we experiment a

40:58 – 41:02 lot of things and then we just decided

41:00 – 41:04 to make it we made it look like a class

41:02 – 41:05 basically we made it look like a public

41:04 – 41:06 class that we were always completely

41:05 – 41:08 straightforward with people that it was

41:06 – 41:10 research they always had to signed

41:08 – 41:12 consent documents for the you know IR

41:10 – 41:15 bees and stuff like that and obviously

41:12 – 41:17 they had to tolerate endless hours of

41:15 – 41:20 data collection in order to take the

41:17 – 41:21 class and all of that so I don’t think

41:20 – 41:23 anybody had any illusions about whether

41:21 – 41:24 or not it was actually about they were

41:23 – 41:26 actually participating it whether or not

41:24 – 41:28 they were you know being studied right

41:26 – 41:31 the headline that we’re gonna find in

41:28 – 41:33 the finders and anyone who comes across

41:31 – 41:36 your research the headline is quite

41:33 – 41:39 dramatic and astounding but it is what

41:36 – 41:42 the data is this is phenomenally

41:39 – 41:45 successful in transitioning people to a

41:42 – 41:47 new state of well-being that isn’t

41:45 – 41:50 comparable to anything we’ve seen in the

41:47 – 41:51 past I mean how far can we go with that

41:50 – 41:54 how far do you feel comfortable going

41:51 – 41:56 with that yeah you know people can go to

41:54 – 41:59 non sinn vaka org and look on the

41:56 – 42:01 publication’s page and they can see a

41:59 – 42:03 talk that I gave to a division of the

42:01 – 42:05 American Anthropological Association as

42:03 – 42:07 one of their keynotes that has like it’s

42:05 – 42:09 like an hour to our talk or something

42:07 – 42:11 and just has it all in there and so that

42:09 – 42:14 really probably is the last tranche or

42:11 – 42:15 set of data that we will spend a huge

42:14 – 42:17 amount of time analyzing and thinking

42:15 – 42:18 through and so that I would consider

42:17 – 42:22 that or up

42:18 – 42:23 data and so that was a 70% transition

42:22 – 42:26 rate essentially to these types of

42:23 – 42:28 things and people can look and they can

42:26 – 42:30 see the Signet mean the you know when

42:28 – 42:33 psychologists look at those numbers they

42:30 – 42:35 look impossible I mean you shouldn’t be

42:33 – 42:37 able to have like a 50% drop in

42:35 – 42:39 neuroticism that’s a you know your

42:37 – 42:41 personality traits for just to pick one

42:39 – 42:43 example of one piece one tiny piece of

42:41 – 42:46 data your personality traits are

42:43 – 42:47 supposed to be relatively stable you

42:46 – 42:49 know you shouldn’t be able to take a

42:47 – 42:51 four month program and have a 50% drop

42:49 – 42:54 in eroticism or whatever right highlight

42:51 – 42:57 a couple other data points stress

42:54 – 42:59 happiness yeah stress happiness there’s

42:57 – 43:01 a G’s I mean I’m not thinking too much

42:59 – 43:04 about these numbers anymore but I think

43:01 – 43:06 there’s like a 40% drop on depression

43:04 – 43:09 measures on the Center for

43:06 – 43:10 epidemiological studies depression

43:09 – 43:11 measure which is one of the main

43:10 – 43:13 depression measures all the measures

43:11 – 43:16 were like major measures you know huge

43:13 – 43:18 shifts and the mysticism type measures

43:16 – 43:20 of course as one would expect I you know

43:18 – 43:22 for me personally one of the most I was

43:20 – 43:24 I would give these presentations every

43:22 – 43:25 year at the interested scientific

43:24 – 43:27 conferences and stuff right they would

43:25 – 43:28 just invite us to present over here

43:27 – 43:31 because who the heck else is doing this

43:28 – 43:34 right and I remember there was there

43:31 – 43:36 were always like a few people that I was

43:34 – 43:39 really waiting to see when I tipped them

43:36 – 43:42 over with data you know like the just

43:39 – 43:45 the die-hard skeptics in the room right

43:42 – 43:47 the people who really just did not want

43:45 – 43:49 to believe our findings in many cases

43:47 – 43:50 because they were Buddhist themselves

43:49 – 43:52 even though they were also

43:50 – 43:54 neuroscientists or whatever else and and

43:52 – 43:57 so they just had they had fundamental

43:54 – 43:60 philosophical ideological beliefs that

43:57 – 44:02 made them diametrically opposed to our

43:60 – 44:04 data and I remember a couple years ago I

44:02 – 44:07 think I was presenting there was one guy

44:04 – 44:08 that was left right and I love him to

44:07 – 44:09 death I won’t say who it is but I love

44:08 – 44:12 him to death he’s a friend of mine I

44:09 – 44:14 have enormous respect for his work he’s

44:12 – 44:16 he’s one of I think the most important

44:14 – 44:21 people in the neuroscience of this space

44:16 – 44:22 but you know as close as as much as we

44:21 – 44:25 like each other and as much as respect

44:22 – 44:26 each other you know he was a hardened

44:25 – 44:28 critic of our work for a very long time

44:26 – 44:30 and I remember I was in this one

44:28 – 44:32 presentation and I was just sort of we

44:30 – 44:34 finally had enough pieces of

44:32 – 44:36 data between well being the between the

44:34 – 44:38 well-being and depression stuff and

44:36 – 44:41 between the personality measures stuff

44:38 – 44:43 like the neuroticism drop and I could

44:41 – 44:46 tell that like the one piece of evidence

44:43 – 44:49 that probably tipped it for him was the

44:46 – 44:52 meaning measures so we collected data on

44:49 – 44:55 personal meaning and there is this one

44:52 – 44:57 measure that that looks at meaning in

44:55 – 44:58 two different ways these people are very

44:57 – 44:59 accurately I mean it’s of impressive

44:58 – 45:02 work right they’ve gotten to this with a

44:59 – 45:04 measure and so they look at meaning as

45:02 – 45:07 that what they call presence and search

45:04 – 45:09 and search really is seeking and it’s

45:07 – 45:11 like a negative form of meaning making

45:09 – 45:14 but they’ve found a way to measure it

45:11 – 45:16 and presence is essentially like just

45:14 – 45:18 being at peace with things and so it’s

45:16 – 45:20 like the form of meaning you want right

45:18 – 45:23 it’s like the positive form of meaning

45:20 – 45:27 that’s so elusive for Humanity and we

45:23 – 45:29 had just really clear you know highly

45:27 – 45:31 statistically significant results that

45:29 – 45:33 basically showed that in this population

45:31 – 45:36 of people reporting fundamental

45:33 – 45:38 well-being that you have this the search

45:36 – 45:41 seeking portion of meaning if you will

45:38 – 45:43 you know really significantly dropping

45:41 – 45:45 and the presence form of meaning really

45:43 – 45:47 significantly increasing I’d not and I

45:45 – 45:49 don’t think I’ve ever presented that

45:47 – 45:51 particular data before but I could tell

45:49 – 45:52 it was that piece and also a piece of

45:51 – 45:54 data on disassociation and

45:52 – 45:57 depersonalization was just I like I

45:54 – 45:58 could just see his face change you know

45:57 – 46:00 and after that it was there wasn’t any

45:58 – 46:02 more criticism it was like you know that

46:00 – 46:04 okay you’ve you’ve got the puzzle like

46:02 – 46:06 I’m convinced like you’ve got the puzzle

46:04 – 46:09 those are all of the puzzle pieces that

46:06 – 46:12 I would need to see that’s really what

46:09 – 46:13 we’ve done but so anyway now we’re gonna

46:12 – 46:15 keep we’re keeping the course out there

46:13 – 46:17 the course it’s renowned now it is a

46:15 – 46:19 course actually it’s not we’re still

46:17 – 46:21 collecting data because we figure why

46:19 – 46:23 not but we’re collecting a lot less of

46:21 – 46:24 it than we’ve ever collected in the past

46:23 – 46:26 and we think you know maybe some PhD

46:24 – 46:28 student will come along someday I want

46:26 – 46:29 to dig into a bunch of it or whatever

46:28 – 46:32 else there’s no reason to not be

46:29 – 46:34 collecting the data because at the same

46:32 – 46:37 time people can also sort of see their

46:34 – 46:38 own change we use you pens online

46:37 – 46:40 psychology measures thing for a chunk of

46:38 – 46:42 it and so they can see their own before

46:40 – 46:43 and after results on all of these

46:42 – 46:45 leading measures that’s basically now

46:43 – 46:47 actually a class and where are

46:45 – 46:49 searches moved on to is very different

46:47 – 46:52 than that let’s talk about that because

46:49 – 46:53 I’ve spent a good deal of time rehashing

46:52 – 46:55 stuff that we already talked about but I

46:53 – 46:57 think it’s it’s important because if you

46:55 – 46:59 jump into the middle of this and just

46:57 – 47:01 talk about what’s going forward it’s

46:59 – 47:03 such an amazing story it’s so unique

47:01 – 47:06 what you’ve done we just can’t stress

47:03 – 47:07 that enough whether people like it or

47:06 – 47:10 don’t like it

47:07 – 47:12 whether you’re that grumpy Buddhists

47:10 – 47:15 neuroscience type who’s sitting there

47:12 – 47:17 going this isn’t it or whether you’re a

47:15 – 47:19 spiritual seeker who’s so attached to

47:17 – 47:21 your own tradition that you feel like

47:19 – 47:24 this guy is gonna take the secret sauce

47:21 – 47:26 out of what you already know there’s all

47:24 – 47:28 sorts of reasons to be a hater on this

47:26 – 47:30 stuff and I’m sure you’ve encountered

47:28 – 47:31 all of them but here’s what happened I

47:30 – 47:33 sent you this email I said hey your some

47:31 – 47:36 things we would like to talk about you

47:33 – 47:37 just boomed like laser zeroed in said

47:36 – 47:39 hey I think we’ve talked about a lot of

47:37 – 47:42 that stuff already here’s some of the

47:39 – 47:44 stuff that I think is going on right now

47:42 – 47:47 that would be interesting to your

47:44 – 47:51 listeners so the data that you have

47:47 – 47:54 allows you to scrutinize spiritual

47:51 – 47:58 claims in a way that wasn’t possible

47:54 – 48:01 before it’s a knife and in your hand you

47:58 – 48:04 are not unwilling to wield that knife

48:01 – 48:06 sometimes at some folks who you think

48:04 – 48:09 deserve it so here’s what you said we

48:06 – 48:11 basically feel like those systems that

48:09 – 48:14 is religious systems like Buddhism and

48:11 – 48:18 others have failed for a millennia

48:14 – 48:21 failed humanity essentially except as

48:18 – 48:25 some sort of minimal cultural carrier

48:21 – 48:27 it’s not difficult to transition people

48:25 – 48:29 this is what you’re saying is hey I’ve

48:27 – 48:31 been doing this guys we’ve run it we’ve

48:29 – 48:33 collected the data we know how to do it

48:31 – 48:35 it’s not difficult to transition people

48:33 – 48:37 which everyone thinks is impossible so

48:35 – 48:41 the fact that these systems aren’t

48:37 – 48:44 routinely doing it at scale is an

48:41 – 48:46 indication that they’re best left in the

48:44 – 48:48 past I mean that’s gonna piss a lot of

48:46 – 48:49 people off right there

48:48 – 48:52 I mean I don’t care if you’re in that in

48:49 – 48:54 the audience seeing your data or not

48:52 – 48:56 yeah process that yeah you know we have

48:54 – 48:58 a scientific framework not a religious

48:56 – 48:60 framework right I’m not a religious sky

48:58 – 49:01 though obviously we’ve had a lot of

48:60 – 49:03 religious scholars on the project and

49:01 – 49:05 associated with the project and whatnot

49:03 – 49:07 because they’re interested in meeting

49:05 – 49:10 people who are relate to the things that

49:07 – 49:12 you know they studied or whatever but to

49:10 – 49:15 us it’s it’s it really is sort of

49:12 – 49:18 becoming that clear you know we have had

49:15 – 49:22 such a massive amount of hostility

49:18 – 49:24 directed at us in recent years as we’ve

49:22 – 49:25 conducted these experiments and as we’ve

49:24 – 49:28 been sort of more routinely

49:25 – 49:31 transitioning people from these various

49:28 – 49:32 systems and we’ve done I feel like a lot

49:31 – 49:34 of outreach

49:32 – 49:36 you know we’ve allowed a lot of people

49:34 – 49:39 from those systems to use our programs

49:36 – 49:41 for free or even subsidizing them in

49:39 – 49:43 other ways or even adapting things in

49:41 – 49:44 other ways and allowing them to run them

49:43 – 49:45 in person because there are more

49:44 – 49:47 comfortable running things in person

49:45 – 49:50 then not even making them use our online

49:47 – 49:52 format and protocol and you know I feel

49:50 – 49:55 like we’ve done as much as we can do to

49:52 – 49:57 really sort of reach out and yet there’s

49:55 – 50:01 still just such hostility that comes

49:57 – 50:03 from those folks and you know I I mean

50:01 – 50:04 how happy can you really be if you’re

50:03 – 50:07 that hostile if you’re really

50:04 – 50:09 experiencing this stuff it’s hard to be

50:07 – 50:10 that hostile you know you’re more I

50:09 – 50:12 would like to think you’re a little more

50:10 – 50:14 like us where you’re asking yourself

50:12 – 50:15 what can I do to help this person and

50:14 – 50:17 that’s really significant I mean I think

50:15 – 50:20 the outreach part is really significant

50:17 – 50:24 for people to hear people who are

50:20 – 50:26 critics it’s like you know oh this guy’s

50:24 – 50:28 just doing it for the money or as

50:26 – 50:29 heavy-handed or he’s isn’t that whatever

50:28 – 50:31 you want to say about the way he’s

50:29 – 50:33 conducted his research and I think at

50:31 – 50:36 this point it’s just beyond question

50:33 – 50:38 like he just said it’s research look at

50:36 – 50:39 the outreach look at when people come to

50:38 – 50:42 him and say hey I really think this

50:39 – 50:43 could benefit this group if we did it in

50:42 – 50:45 this way and I think the general vibe

50:43 – 50:47 that I get back and I did from the

50:45 – 50:49 beginning when I heard he was like okay

50:47 – 50:51 great well you know here’s how you might

50:49 – 50:53 go about doing that good luck to you you

50:51 – 50:55 know I mean how can you criticize that

50:53 – 50:58 but here’s the other thing you said in

50:55 – 51:02 the email to be spiritual salesmanship

50:58 – 51:05 around fundamental well being has just

51:02 – 51:07 been completely bogus yeah I think so I

51:05 – 51:08 think we got to process that a lot I

51:07 – 51:11 think we got to really break that apart

51:08 – 51:14 because we have to understand

51:11 – 51:16 and what that resistance what that

51:14 – 51:19 jealousy is about it’s not the whole

51:16 – 51:22 story the big story is what you’re

51:19 – 51:25 talking about 70% of people can feel

51:22 – 51:27 better about themselves and beef along

51:25 – 51:30 their path whatever that path takes them

51:27 – 51:33 they can help but there is a built-in

51:30 – 51:34 resistance to the system that I’d like

51:33 – 51:37 that you bring out your sword and you

51:34 – 51:39 want to slash away at spiritual

51:37 – 51:41 salesmanship around this idea of

51:39 – 51:44 fundamental living has been completely

51:41 – 51:45 bogus in what ways has it been bogus in

51:44 – 51:48 this area you know when I first started

51:45 – 51:50 trying to research this area it was so

51:48 – 51:52 hard

51:50 – 51:54 and the reason it was so hard was

51:52 – 51:57 because the general view of it within

51:54 – 52:00 the psychology establishment was that

51:57 – 52:03 the claims are so anti materialist right

52:00 – 52:05 and so it’s all just get enlightened and

52:03 – 52:08 then basically you’re the path ahead of

52:05 – 52:11 you is just paved with gold it’s all

52:08 – 52:13 just perfect synchronistic unfoldment I

52:11 – 52:14 mean you know you if you’re hungry and

52:13 – 52:16 you want an orange you just hold out

52:14 – 52:17 your hand and visualize an orange and

52:16 – 52:19 the orange shows up in your hand you

52:17 – 52:21 know but but if you’re really advanced

52:19 – 52:22 you just infuse the orange ‘no sin to

52:21 – 52:25 your system you don’t even bother with

52:22 – 52:28 that or these are actual things you know

52:25 – 52:29 that we heard and so i think that

52:28 – 52:31 traditionally one thing that’s been

52:29 – 52:33 interesting about the people who have

52:31 – 52:35 pursued fundamental well-being which is

52:33 – 52:37 a tiny percent of the population a tiny

52:35 – 52:39 tiny tiny percent of the population

52:37 – 52:42 probably in the hundreds of thousands of

52:39 – 52:44 English speakers you know native english

52:42 – 52:45 Western English speakers so that’s a

52:44 – 52:49 very small group of people right who

52:45 – 52:50 have really really pursued it I’m not

52:49 – 52:52 talking about people who don’t want

52:50 – 52:56 their ego to be happier or whatever but

52:52 – 52:58 who have really pursued this fundamental

52:56 – 53:00 wellbeing shift it’s a relatively small

52:58 – 53:03 number of people and it was a and by and

53:00 – 53:05 large it was a mostly unhappy group of

53:03 – 53:08 people and so that’s colored a lot of

53:05 – 53:10 things relating to this in the West and

53:08 – 53:12 from a public standpoint

53:10 – 53:14 well there’s also let me play play this

53:12 – 53:17 out and see what you think you go back

53:14 – 53:20 to your story right which is everybody’s

53:17 – 53:22 story I’m unhappy I’m not as happy as I

53:20 – 53:25 think I should be I’m not as happy as

53:22 – 53:27 those TV ads tell me I can be

53:25 – 53:29 I want to be happier so you have

53:27 – 53:31 somewhat of a spiritual bent and maybe

53:29 – 53:33 you have like a anti religious bent like

53:31 – 53:35 a lot of us do when you say somebody

53:33 – 53:38 says meditation you go oh okay

53:35 – 53:40 meditation what should I do and you go

53:38 – 53:42 online you meditation I know the Zen

53:40 – 53:44 people meditate so you find the local

53:42 – 53:46 Zen people that’ll let you come in and

53:44 – 53:49 sit down and you start meditating or you

53:46 – 53:51 start taking a yoga class and there’s

53:49 – 53:54 all this stuff that they’re saying

53:51 – 53:56 around all these things so you wind up

53:54 – 53:59 following it in some cases for years and

53:56 – 54:00 years and you wind up scratching your

53:59 – 54:03 head and go you know what I really

54:00 – 54:05 wanted was I wanted to feel better I

54:03 – 54:07 wanted to feel more a sense of

54:05 – 54:10 well-being am I really getting there

54:07 – 54:14 with that I think that’s what I read out

54:10 – 54:16 of this aspect of spiritual salesmanship

54:14 – 54:19 that I think you’re directly debunking

54:16 – 54:21 which is to say if this is what you say

54:19 – 54:24 you want we can measure it in these ways

54:21 – 54:26 then why wouldn’t we want to as directly

54:24 – 54:29 as possible try and achieve that what’s

54:26 – 54:32 wrong with that I agree yeah absolutely

54:29 – 54:33 and I would say you know one of the

54:32 – 54:35 problems with it where the spiritual

54:33 – 54:37 salesmanship I think comes in is in the

54:35 – 54:39 sales process I talk about what

54:37 – 54:41 fundamental well-being is it’s pretty

54:39 – 54:45 much the opposite of the normal sense of

54:41 – 54:48 self right and so if you’re in your

54:45 – 54:51 normal sense of self and I’m trying to

54:48 – 54:52 convince you that fundamental well-being

54:51 – 54:56 is where it’s at

54:52 – 54:58 it sounds thoroughly undesirable to your

54:56 – 54:60 normal sense of self right that’s so

54:58 – 55:02 profound but let’s break that down a

54:60 – 55:03 little bit yeah let’s really get into

55:02 – 55:05 this and let’s really talk about all of

55:03 – 55:07 this because I think this is it’s

55:05 – 55:09 important and for a long time you know

55:07 – 55:12 we’ve we’ve avoided these types of

55:09 – 55:14 conversations I think out of I don’t

55:12 – 55:16 know politeness but it didn’t get us

55:14 – 55:18 anywhere it just kept getting us

55:16 – 55:19 attacked more and more and more and more

55:18 – 55:20 and more and more and more and now I

55:19 – 55:22 think we’re sort of done with avoiding

55:20 – 55:25 these types of conversations and you

55:22 – 55:27 know whatever else because it just to us

55:25 – 55:29 it just seems so clear having cut a

55:27 – 55:31 swath across so many different

55:29 – 55:33 communities right the patterns are just

55:31 – 55:35 there all over the place and they’re not

55:33 – 55:36 limited to one particular group or

55:35 – 55:38 another particular group or whatever

55:36 – 55:40 else right so let me go back and

55:38 – 55:41 let me let me talk a little bit if I

55:40 – 55:43 could just real quick about what you

55:41 – 55:46 said a minute ago right we know it’s not

55:43 – 55:47 that we don’t see a value in religion

55:46 – 55:50 and spiritual systems we absolutely do

55:47 – 55:51 right we use a lot of their methods that

55:50 – 55:54 they’ve come up with for hundreds of

55:51 – 55:57 years they’ve been a very important

55:54 – 55:59 cultural carrier across millennia across

55:57 – 56:02 the rise and fall of Empires that tend

55:59 – 56:03 to wipe out knowledge and histories and

56:02 – 56:06 whatever else they have they have been

56:03 – 56:08 like a cultural carrier thread through

56:06 – 56:10 that a culture carrier of what obviously

56:08 – 56:13 personal carrier of the knowledge that

56:10 – 56:15 this that fundamental well-being exists

56:13 – 56:17 and that you can reach it and of having

56:15 – 56:18 clues for how to reach it and I think

56:17 – 56:21 that’s very valuable and if you think

56:18 – 56:22 back to if you you know if you think

56:21 – 56:24 back to who knows how many hundreds of

56:22 – 56:27 years ago like those little tibetan

56:24 – 56:30 Tinka symbol things were created right

56:27 – 56:32 but that’s an amazing technology you

56:30 – 56:34 know this if you measure those things

56:32 – 56:36 there most of them the real ones are

56:34 – 56:37 like a 10 Hertz binaural beat designed

56:36 – 56:40 to be held up to each side of your head

56:37 – 56:43 I mean like somebody hundreds of years

56:40 – 56:45 ago created a genius piece of

56:43 – 56:46 consciousness altering technology

56:45 – 56:48 they’re right

56:46 – 56:50 a lot of these things that they’ve come

56:48 – 56:53 up with were brilliant and cutting-edge

56:50 – 56:55 in their day the problem for us is that

56:53 – 56:57 it’s you know what we look at it

56:55 – 56:59 critically is that at some point that

56:57 – 57:01 just seems to have stopped right I mean

56:59 – 57:03 for the last hundred and fifty years

57:01 – 57:06 there’s been a siam ager scientific

57:03 – 57:08 revolution going on right where have

57:06 – 57:12 been where are the modern tincture bells

57:08 – 57:14 coming out of these traditions that was

57:12 – 57:16 just bleeding edge science and

57:14 – 57:18 engineering at some point however many

57:16 – 57:19 hundreds of thousands I don’t know the

57:18 – 57:22 history on those sainte-chapelle things

57:19 – 57:25 right are those simple things they were

57:22 – 57:27 at one point on the absolute bleeding

57:25 – 57:29 edge of science and technology of human

57:27 – 57:31 consciousness but but it’s I think it’s

57:29 – 57:34 undeniable that at some point that

57:31 – 57:36 stopped right and I’m living evidence of

57:34 – 57:38 that I should never have had to spend

57:36 – 57:41 the last twelve years of my life doing

57:38 – 57:43 this right I mean for hundreds of years

57:41 – 57:46 those traditions could have been keeping

57:43 – 57:48 up with science as it was evolving I

57:46 – 57:52 mean the EEG was invented over a hundred

57:48 – 57:53 years ago at this point right I mean

57:52 – 57:55 anyone from any of these traditions

57:53 – 57:57 could have been like hey let’s see

57:55 – 57:59 what’s coming out of our meditation

57:57 – 58:01 teachers head and see if we can start

57:59 – 58:05 advancing this right but where was that

58:01 – 58:06 per se right so it’s not that it’s not

58:05 – 58:08 that throughout all of human history

58:06 – 58:10 there was no value I think there was

58:08 – 58:12 tremendous value but it’s almost like

58:10 – 58:16 that that value proposition stopped

58:12 – 58:18 advancing at a certain point and human

58:16 – 58:20 culture kept moving on and now there’s

58:18 – 58:22 this tremendous out of phase miss you

58:20 – 58:24 know one of the things that we pick up

58:22 – 58:29 on in in our participant research

58:24 – 58:31 especially people who come in to the

58:29 – 58:35 finders course when it was an experiment

58:31 – 58:37 as it’s very clear that you know they’ve

58:35 – 58:39 been involved in Buddhism not because

58:37 – 58:41 they love the the lore of Buddhism but

58:39 – 58:42 because they think that that’s where

58:41 – 58:44 some method might exist that might

58:42 – 58:45 increase their well-being right it’s

58:44 – 58:49 almost like most of them are trying to

58:45 – 58:51 avoid the dogma of Buddhism but get the

58:49 – 58:53 method that they think might actually

58:51 – 58:55 you know assist them and some way I

58:53 – 58:58 remember I was sitting I was researching

58:55 – 59:01 this famous Tibetan guy one time and I

58:58 – 59:03 was sitting in a small group of kind of

59:01 – 59:05 like elite people that he was teaching

59:03 – 59:07 waiting for him to get done so that I

59:05 – 59:08 could you know talk to him afterward I

59:07 – 59:10 had an appointment scheduled with him

59:08 – 59:12 afterward and I he’s like come early I’m

59:10 – 59:14 gonna give this teaching and so I came

59:12 – 59:15 early to give this teaching he’s talking

59:14 – 59:18 about the Buddha coming out of the side

59:15 – 59:19 of his mother being born out of the side

59:18 – 59:22 of his mother and all of this various

59:19 – 59:26 dogma to this roomful of wealthy

59:22 – 59:28 Westerners frankly who were like can we

59:26 – 59:31 please get to the meditation park right

59:28 – 59:33 like the last thing they wanted to hear

59:31 – 59:35 was the Buddha coming out of the side of

59:33 – 59:37 his mother or whatever else right and

59:35 – 59:40 but they’re having to sort of suffer

59:37 – 59:42 through that in some sense to get to the

59:40 – 59:43 thing that they actually showed up for

59:42 – 59:44 which was meditation that they were

59:43 – 59:46 hoping would relieve some of their

59:44 – 59:48 psychological suffering and so so it’s

59:46 – 59:50 not that I think that there’s that

59:48 – 59:52 there’s a wholesale lack of a value

59:50 – 59:56 proposition there but you know let’s

59:52 – 59:57 face it we’re not all in P n SE for some

59:56 – 60:00 reason we’re not all in fundamental

59:57 – 60:02 well-being for some reason and and these

60:00 – 60:04 are the systems that have taken a crack

60:02 – 60:05 at it for hundreds and thousands of

60:04 – 60:07 years

60:05 – 60:10 at this point and so I don’t think that

60:07 – 60:12 you can say wow look at the success that

60:10 – 60:15 that has been and you certainly can’t

60:12 – 60:17 say wow look at how they’ve kept up with

60:15 – 60:21 their technologies and how they have

60:17 – 60:23 evolved into modern eras you know no one

60:21 – 60:26 sitting in that room of wealthy people

60:23 – 60:27 wanted to look like one of their life to

60:26 – 60:30 be like that Tibetan teacher’s life

60:27 – 60:32 right they wanted this integrated into

60:30 – 60:36 their own life they wanted a modern

60:32 – 60:38 secular Western version of this that

60:36 – 60:42 solved their fundamental core well-being

60:38 – 60:46 problems and then you know allowed them

60:42 – 60:49 to live a modern Western lifestyle not

60:46 – 60:52 having to renounce meat or sex or money

60:49 – 60:54 or you know dress in some certain way or

60:52 – 60:57 you know any of those other things like

60:54 – 60:59 they want to go to work tomorrow or do

60:57 – 61:00 their investing tomorrow or whatever it

60:59 – 61:02 is that particular group did and so

61:00 – 61:04 that’s where that’s that’s what I was

61:02 – 61:05 trying to convey basically sort of you

61:04 – 61:07 know that’s where we come out there’s we

61:05 – 61:08 think there’s tremendous value and a lot

61:07 – 61:10 of these things and to the degree that

61:08 – 61:12 they help but they help I think that’s

61:10 – 61:15 fantastic well we really feel like

61:12 – 61:18 there’s this whole other approach that

61:15 – 61:19 is more suited to modernity and then I

61:18 – 61:21 the other thing that I would add to that

61:19 – 61:24 would be on the flip side of the

61:21 – 61:27 spiritual salesmanship thing you know it

61:24 – 61:28 is incredibly tempting to give in to

61:27 – 61:32 spiritual salesmanship

61:28 – 61:35 it is incredibly tempting to say you

61:32 – 61:38 know what your sense your your

61:35 – 61:40 synchronicity will increase to the point

61:38 – 61:42 where life will be effortless for you

61:40 – 61:43 Alex this is the thing that you’ve been

61:42 – 61:45 looking life is such a struggle for you

61:43 – 61:48 I know it’s been such a struggle for you

61:45 – 61:51 up to this point in your life but you

61:48 – 61:53 can have this deep inner peace and just

61:51 – 61:55 this perfect unfolding or everything is

61:53 – 61:57 synchronistic and like this life is

61:55 – 61:59 waiting for you Alex that you just can’t

61:57 – 62:02 man you just can’t imagine it you’ve

61:59 – 62:03 just got to have this shift right and so

62:02 – 62:04 that’s what I mean when I’m talking

62:03 – 62:08 about spiritual salesmanship right and

62:04 – 62:09 there are absolutely you know types of

62:08 – 62:11 fundamental well-being where it feels

62:09 – 62:14 like every moment is a hundred percent

62:11 – 62:16 synchronistic there’s no doubt about

62:14 – 62:19 that right that is not a lie if I’m in

62:16 – 62:20 that place to say to you it

62:19 – 62:23 can feel like life is a hundred percent

62:20 – 62:25 synchronistic all right however I know

62:23 – 62:27 people who are in that place of a

62:25 – 62:29 hundred percent system synchronistic who

62:27 – 62:32 have lost their houses to foreclosure

62:29 – 62:34 who have gone to prison who have had

62:32 – 62:37 what outwardly to the rest of us would

62:34 – 62:41 seem like highly negative life events

62:37 – 62:43 and so for them to also say the other

62:41 – 62:46 part of that statement which is you know

62:43 – 62:48 life will just unfold magically for you

62:46 – 62:51 there will be no more struggle now what

62:48 – 62:53 their meaning internally is oh I lost my

62:51 – 62:54 house well big deal who cares I’ll just

62:53 – 62:57 go sleep under a bridge

62:54 – 63:01 no big struggle right but what you hear

62:57 – 63:03 as a normal human being is not oh I

63:01 – 63:06 won’t all I may lose my house but I

63:03 – 63:08 won’t care if I’m sleeping under a

63:06 – 63:11 bridge for the rest of my life that will

63:08 – 63:14 still feel you know sort of fine and

63:11 – 63:17 synchronistic and you know whatever else

63:14 – 63:19 and so there’s the ending and they know

63:17 – 63:21 when they’re communicating these things

63:19 – 63:24 how you’re hearing it they know that

63:21 – 63:25 you’re not understanding it in their

63:24 – 63:27 from their own perspective right but

63:25 – 63:29 they’re kind of justifying it from their

63:27 – 63:30 own perspective and it’s sort of

63:29 – 63:32 justifying what they’re saying from

63:30 – 63:35 their own perspective because they’re

63:32 – 63:38 not really lying to you right that is

63:35 – 63:40 how they’re experiencing the world it is

63:38 – 63:44 deep inner peace it is a hundred percent

63:40 – 63:46 synchronicity it is an imperturbable you

63:44 – 63:48 know from where they’re at it does feel

63:46 – 63:50 like everything is happening exactly as

63:48 – 63:51 it should no matter how adverse the

63:50 – 63:53 events that are happening to them or

63:51 – 63:55 whatever else right but they’re not

63:53 – 63:57 saying to you oh hey by the way I lost

63:55 – 63:59 my house last week you know they’re

63:57 – 64:02 leaving out facts like that and they’re

63:59 – 64:05 letting sort of your brain fill in this

64:02 – 64:07 sort of magical existence that you can

64:05 – 64:09 have if only you’ll transition it’s a

64:07 – 64:11 fundamental well-being and so in that

64:09 – 64:14 sense you know we kind of take issue

64:11 – 64:16 from that’s where I talk about that’s

64:14 – 64:18 what I mean when I say sort of spiritual

64:16 – 64:20 salesmanship it’s not necessarily pure

64:18 – 64:22 dishonesty from their own internal

64:20 – 64:23 phenomenological experience but on the

64:22 – 64:26 other hand they’re not really giving you

64:23 – 64:27 the whole picture either in terms of

64:26 – 64:28 their own struggles and their what you

64:27 – 64:30 would what the normal person would

64:28 – 64:32 consider their own life struggle right

64:30 – 64:32 they’re giving you the part where it’s

64:32 – 64:35 like man

64:32 – 64:38 I want that you know your egos like yeah

64:35 – 64:41 I’m tired of struggling life sucks I

64:38 – 64:44 want that but they’re not telling you

64:41 – 64:47 that what your ego calls struggle well

64:44 – 64:49 you know still exist for you basically

64:47 – 64:51 on the other side those life events that

64:49 – 64:53 your ego refers to as struggling in the

64:51 – 64:55 world are not gonna probably go away for

64:53 – 64:57 you there’s challenges with that too

64:55 – 64:59 though I mean and I think you understand

64:57 – 65:01 that but as soon as you get into the

64:59 – 65:03 prescriptive model and away from the

65:01 – 65:06 descriptive model of the social

65:03 – 65:08 scientist your layering your own values

65:06 – 65:09 on there which sure you know we’re

65:08 – 65:11 pointing at those people and saying

65:09 – 65:14 their values but I don’t want to bury

65:11 – 65:15 the lead because the leads no it’s no

65:14 – 65:18 question that’s travel lead story is so

65:15 – 65:22 important which is as a social scientist

65:18 – 65:25 as you cut away everything that isn’t

65:22 – 65:28 then it opens up the possibility for

65:25 – 65:29 everyone to determine what is what is

65:28 – 65:31 for them what part of their tradition

65:29 – 65:33 they want to take what part they don’t

65:31 – 65:35 need how much of it is social

65:33 – 65:37 engineering how much of it is someone

65:35 – 65:40 trying to get in their pocket for their

65:37 – 65:42 cults for their religion for their build

65:40 – 65:45 a church down on the corner how much of

65:42 – 65:48 it is some kind of larger scale SIOP to

65:45 – 65:51 control and manipulate all that stuff as

65:48 – 65:53 the social scientist you cut cut cut cut

65:51 – 65:55 cut and you say all right I now have the

65:53 – 65:58 essence you can go with it from there

65:55 – 66:01 but I certainly understand and we can

65:58 – 66:03 all appreciate a little bit of rage that

66:01 – 66:06 comes up in interacting with these

66:03 – 66:09 communities who are so insistent that

66:06 – 66:12 they’re layering is the only layering

66:09 – 66:13 that one can do on that but I guess this

66:12 – 66:16 is there anything more we want to say

66:13 – 66:20 about what you’ve labeled is integration

66:16 – 66:23 how we how we yeah this awakening that

66:20 – 66:25 comes through the finders course comes

66:23 – 66:27 through this experience and then

66:25 – 66:29 integrating it into our life yeah

66:27 – 66:31 absolutely you can say a lot about it

66:29 – 66:33 and let me let me add that you know

66:31 – 66:36 there are especially I think in the

66:33 – 66:38 non-dual community the modern sort of

66:36 – 66:39 contemporary non-dual community and if

66:38 – 66:42 you think about someone like Scott

66:39 – 66:43 killaby Scott has publicly identified

66:42 – 66:46 himself as having participated on our

66:43 – 66:46 research to people and so I can say that

66:46 – 66:48 he’s participate

66:46 – 66:51 research I’m not gonna give out you know

66:48 – 66:52 data about him or whatever but just to

66:51 – 66:55 say that I you know I have sat down with

66:52 – 66:58 him at length had very meaningful

66:55 – 66:60 conversations with him etc etc he’s a

66:58 – 67:03 great example I think of someone who is

66:60 – 67:05 doing their level best to avoid those

67:03 – 67:07 sort of dilemmas those Western moral

67:05 – 67:09 dilemmas if you will from a spiritual

67:07 – 67:11 salesmanship standpoint right I remember

67:09 – 67:13 reading this post from him there was

67:11 – 67:16 this thing going around about a guy

67:13 – 67:19 named Fred Davis who is I think a very

67:16 – 67:20 effective actually non-dual teacher and

67:19 – 67:21 I don’t remember actually what the

67:20 – 67:23 scandal was there was some sort of

67:21 – 67:24 scandal going around and I remember

67:23 – 67:26 thinking that doesn’t really seem like a

67:24 – 67:28 big deal it’s a big deal I think if you

67:26 – 67:30 have a certain belief system around how

67:28 – 67:31 all of these people are supposed to be

67:30 – 67:33 perfect beings that you know don’t spit

67:31 – 67:34 their food out when they’re talking to

67:33 – 67:36 you over dinner and stuff like that

67:34 – 67:38 right but if you don’t have a view of

67:36 – 67:41 them as being perfect beings you’re like

67:38 – 67:43 what’s the big deal there yeah so Scott

67:41 – 67:46 wrote this post where he was like

67:43 – 67:49 essentially like well here’s all the

67:46 – 67:51 shit that’s been wrong in my life I mean

67:49 – 67:54 it was just this amazing transparent

67:51 – 67:56 post and I think the non you know some

67:54 – 67:58 of these non-dual teachers in the

67:56 – 68:01 non-dual portion of this overall

67:58 – 68:04 spiritual religious sort of world have

68:01 – 68:07 in recent years really tried hard to be

68:04 – 68:10 straightforward about this and I’ve been

68:07 – 68:12 very very impressed by that because

68:10 – 68:13 that’s a that’s a brave thing to do for

68:12 – 68:15 their businesses if you’re in

68:13 – 68:17 competition with a guy across the road

68:15 – 68:19 in the non-dual space and that guy’s

68:17 – 68:21 talking about life being perfect for you

68:19 – 68:23 in their version of non-duality after

68:21 – 68:25 you transition and then you read a post

68:23 – 68:27 from someone like Scott who’s talking

68:25 – 68:29 about his own personal struggles and his

68:27 – 68:31 own difficulties in his own life and

68:29 – 68:34 it’s just being brutally honest and just

68:31 – 68:36 laying it all bare because of course we

68:34 – 68:37 all have them when you’re like us and

68:36 – 68:39 you sort of know all these people and

68:37 – 68:40 know that they all have them some are

68:39 – 68:42 just choosing to talk about them and

68:40 – 68:45 some aren’t choosing to talk about them

68:42 – 68:48 that is just so amazing to me and so

68:45 – 68:50 brave and it is a trend and so it’s it

68:48 – 68:53 is a coming trend there is a push back

68:50 – 68:55 in at least a section of that non-dual

68:53 – 68:57 community here in America that is like

68:55 – 68:59 really just trying to bare-knuckle it

68:57 – 68:60 and I think we really need to give

68:59 – 69:02 acknowledgement

68:60 – 69:04 to that so from our standpoint for

69:02 – 69:05 integration you know what we’ve been

69:04 – 69:08 trying to convince teachers of for a

69:05 – 69:09 long time now is that they don’t need

69:08 – 69:10 they should I don’t think that they

69:09 – 69:13 should really feel in competition for

69:10 – 69:14 seekers they really have you know it’s

69:13 – 69:16 like there’s not that many seekers

69:14 – 69:17 really sincere seekers out there and so

69:16 – 69:19 if you’re trying to earn a living doing

69:17 – 69:21 this that could be challenging and it’s

69:19 – 69:23 like oh my gosh I don’t want to lose my

69:21 – 69:24 secret or that other guy because there’s

69:23 – 69:26 you know how am I gonna replace that

69:24 – 69:28 secret it took me forever to get that

69:26 – 69:30 guy and so there’s a lot of sort of this

69:28 – 69:33 business stuff that goes on behind the

69:30 – 69:35 scenes in these worlds as well right one

69:33 – 69:37 of the things that I think you’re gonna

69:35 – 69:38 see happening if we’re successful

69:37 – 69:41 especially you’re gonna see it happening

69:38 – 69:42 is you’re gonna see a transition for

69:41 – 69:45 these people and how they think about

69:42 – 69:48 themselves because to my mind I think a

69:45 – 69:50 spiritual teacher is not necessarily

69:48 – 69:53 always the greatest help in

69:50 – 69:55 transitioning someone but they are an

69:53 – 69:57 immense help on the other side of

69:55 – 69:60 transitioning because there aren’t that

69:57 – 70:03 many people in the world who have been

69:60 – 70:05 through the life integration process of

70:03 – 70:07 this stuff right I mean on the other

70:05 – 70:09 side of this the reason that you the

70:07 – 70:11 reason you don’t see more genuine

70:09 – 70:13 advertising around this stuff is that

70:11 – 70:15 for instance it’s very common for a year

70:13 – 70:17 to two years after the transition to

70:15 – 70:19 have a significant drop in motivation so

70:17 – 70:21 there’s a fundamental shift that occurs

70:19 – 70:22 in your goal attainment you know your

70:21 – 70:25 goals have basically been driven by an

70:22 – 70:27 erotic impulses in you which drop away

70:25 – 70:30 right and when you’re when you’re

70:27 – 70:31 neuroticism drops and your goals fall

70:30 – 70:33 away guess what falls away with that

70:31 – 70:35 motivation right and it’s like your

70:33 – 70:38 brain has to go through a period of time

70:35 – 70:40 or it’s unraveling your former

70:38 – 70:42 motivation system and rebuilding a new

70:40 – 70:44 motivation system and everybody wants to

70:42 – 70:46 hear I’m gonna get enlightened and I’m

70:44 – 70:49 going to be ten times more effective in

70:46 – 70:51 my job right nobody wants to hear I’m

70:49 – 70:53 gonna have issues with motivation or

70:51 – 70:55 nobody wants to hear I’m going to

70:53 – 70:57 transition to this entirely other way of

70:55 – 70:59 seeing the world and a consequence of

70:57 – 71:02 that is that I’m gonna feel sort of like

70:59 – 71:05 an alien now living in normal reality

71:02 – 71:08 because 99.5% of the rest of the

71:05 – 71:10 population is experiencing life in this

71:08 – 71:12 highly neurotic way

71:10 – 71:14 my wife my boyfriend my girlfriend my

71:12 – 71:16 husband my wife my boyfriend my kids my

71:14 – 71:20 whoever write every friend I have

71:16 – 71:22 everybody at work literally my entire

71:20 – 71:24 world but and you know and I used to

71:22 – 71:28 experience that I just experienced it

71:24 – 71:30 yesterday I still have a you know fairly

71:28 – 71:32 decent memory of what that experience

71:30 – 71:33 was like but you know I don’t want to

71:32 – 71:36 sit around and talk to these people

71:33 – 71:38 about their neurotic stories anymore my

71:36 – 71:41 life is no longer a game of me sitting

71:38 – 71:42 there validating your neurotic story so

71:41 – 71:44 that you’ll sit there validating my

71:42 – 71:48 neurotic story right like that to me is

71:44 – 71:50 like just a reduction in my piece not a

71:48 – 71:52 leveling up of my piece and so I’m just

71:50 – 71:54 not interested in doing that anymore you

71:52 – 71:57 know I’m not that interested in reading

71:54 – 71:58 the novels that I read for years or

71:57 – 72:00 watching the TV series with you because

71:58 – 72:02 they’re all these story driven neurotic

72:00 – 72:03 sort of things you know that are

72:02 – 72:05 designed to hit me in certain ways and

72:03 – 72:06 make me feel certain ways or whatever

72:05 – 72:09 like I’m at peace I don’t need that

72:06 – 72:11 stuff anymore right and so there’s like

72:09 – 72:15 these significant life changes that

72:11 – 72:18 occur and who’s talking about that right

72:15 – 72:19 because like I mean how many people are

72:18 – 72:21 going to sign up for your program to

72:19 – 72:22 some degree and we take a huge risk on

72:21 – 72:23 this right because we have all kinds of

72:22 – 72:25 research out there that basically says

72:23 – 72:28 this is what it’s like on the other side

72:25 – 72:29 of this and so you know you like you

72:28 – 72:32 sign up with us you sort of know what

72:29 – 72:34 you’re getting I understand the dilemma

72:32 – 72:37 and I’ve seen I even know the histories

72:34 – 72:38 of a lot of these organizations you know

72:37 – 72:40 at what point different advertising

72:38 – 72:42 things were incorporated or at what

72:40 – 72:44 point methods were shifted to go from

72:42 – 72:46 being an hour to being twenty minutes so

72:44 – 72:47 that you could pull more people and even

72:46 – 72:49 though you know it’s not as effective as

72:47 – 72:51 the hour nonetheless you can’t grow to a

72:49 – 72:52 certain size if you don’t have it at ten

72:51 – 72:55 or twenty minutes or one minute or five

72:52 – 72:56 minutes or you know whatever it is I get

72:55 – 72:58 the business decisions that were behind

72:56 – 73:00 all of these things even though to the

72:58 – 73:02 adherence it’s all nothing is business

73:00 – 73:03 it’s none of this it’s all nothing to do

73:02 – 73:05 with business but of course these were

73:03 – 73:08 all strategic marketing and business

73:05 – 73:09 decisions that have been made as I was

73:08 – 73:11 listening to this over the years I was

73:09 – 73:13 thinking to myself how are we going to

73:11 – 73:17 avoid this I mean I spent the mid-90s

73:13 – 73:18 sort of running a chunk of the the heart

73:17 – 73:20 of one of the worlds at the time the

73:18 – 73:21 world’s first and most significant

73:20 – 73:22 advertising glamour right and I’ve got a

73:21 – 73:25 background

73:22 – 73:27 in advertising and marketing and I was

73:25 – 73:29 listening to these people’s business

73:27 – 73:31 descriptions you know and how they

73:29 – 73:32 devolved them over time and the decision

73:31 – 73:34 that they’d come to and how they’d

73:32 – 73:36 morally justified them inside their own

73:34 – 73:38 minds and all of that and the whole time

73:36 – 73:39 that I’m listening to that I’m noting it

73:38 – 73:41 for research but I’m also sort of

73:39 – 73:43 thinking to myself holy crap you know

73:41 – 73:46 how can you get around that and I think

73:43 – 73:47 there isn’t a good way to get around it

73:46 – 73:49 you sort of have to you have to make a

73:47 – 73:51 decision to go one way or the other it

73:49 – 73:54 has to either be I’m gonna give you the

73:51 – 73:55 life as a synchronistic golden path you

73:54 – 73:56 know everything is going to be perfect

73:55 – 73:58 for you and not tell you that I just

73:56 – 73:59 lost my house I’m gonna sort of leave

73:58 – 74:00 that part out of it

73:59 – 74:03 but I’m being honest about how this

74:00 – 74:05 moment is feeling for me or you have to

74:03 – 74:07 be like you know you’re gonna have major

74:05 – 74:10 life changes here you’re gonna your life

74:07 – 74:12 as a finder it’s going to be to some

74:10 – 74:14 degree a moment depending upon where you

74:12 – 74:15 land the degree of agency you still have

74:14 – 74:17 all of that I mean let’s leave all that

74:15 – 74:19 aside for the moment in terms of

74:17 – 74:20 debating the nuances of fundamental well

74:19 – 74:22 being and the different types of it and

74:20 – 74:24 all that and let me just say generically

74:22 – 74:27 you know to some degree your life is

74:24 – 74:29 going to be a moment-to-moment decision

74:27 – 74:31 of how much of that deep internal piece

74:29 – 74:33 are you willing to erode for personal

74:31 – 74:36 effectiveness in the world because the

74:33 – 74:38 entire rest of the world is sort of anti

74:36 – 74:42 that internal personal effectiveness and

74:38 – 74:44 so integration at its heart 4p NSE comes

74:42 – 74:46 down to psychological deconditioning and

74:44 – 74:47 undoing all of those old programming

74:46 – 74:48 patterns because you don’t have the

74:47 – 74:51 sense of self reinforcing them anymore

74:48 – 74:52 and optimum ways to do that and you know

74:51 – 74:54 that’s a lot of our research and a lot

74:52 – 74:56 of our work right now and so that’s all

74:54 – 74:57 really important but the fundamental

74:56 – 74:60 question of living in the world comes

74:57 – 75:03 down to how much of my piece am I going

74:60 – 75:04 to erode in order to have an X degree of

75:03 – 75:06 effectiveness and so there’s a there’s

75:04 – 75:09 for instance a high divorce rate among

75:06 – 75:11 people not advertised right like who’s

75:09 – 75:14 putting that in their you know web pages

75:11 – 75:16 right hey come and get enlightened then

75:14 – 75:18 you’ll probably get divorced but there’s

75:16 – 75:20 a high degree of divorce right among

75:18 – 75:23 this right because you wake up and you

75:20 – 75:25 have you know this spouse that is still

75:23 – 75:26 there they’re not awake they’re not

75:25 – 75:28 happy that you’re happy all the time I

75:26 – 75:29 mean as much as we would like to think

75:28 – 75:31 that they have our best interest at

75:29 – 75:33 heart in every moment of our life you

75:31 – 75:34 know the reality is like now you’re sort

75:33 – 75:36 of the shining example of what their

75:34 – 75:37 system has been yearning for

75:36 – 75:39 since they were a little kid or what

75:37 – 75:41 anyone in the relationship understands

75:39 – 75:44 there’s dynamics and when those dynamics

75:41 – 75:46 change everything changes you know let

75:44 – 75:47 me just anyway no I just want to take it

75:46 – 75:50 in a slightly different direction

75:47 – 75:53 because you said something I think that

75:50 – 75:55 might be very I wasn’t saying profound

75:53 – 75:59 but it’s not just profound I think it’s

75:55 – 76:01 probably true from a guy who is a bit of

75:59 – 76:03 a futurist and has kind of created this

76:01 – 76:06 future I know you’re very much

76:03 – 76:10 into tech not for the sake of tech but

76:06 – 76:13 as a tool for maybe facilitating this

76:10 – 76:16 transition and I wonder if that’s also

76:13 – 76:20 informing this future you see because if

76:16 – 76:23 tech does begin to play more of a role

76:20 – 76:27 of this then we have technology that’s

76:23 – 76:31 facilitating change it lessens the need

76:27 – 76:34 for someone in the physical form doing

76:31 – 76:39 that on a one-on-one or even one on ten

76:34 – 76:41 basis but it would then maybe bring the

76:39 – 76:43 high touch aspect back into the

76:41 – 76:45 integration like you’re talking about

76:43 – 76:47 because it would just seem to me that

76:45 – 76:49 potentially that’s what you also

76:47 – 76:52 envision or am I wrong there yeah I do

76:49 – 76:54 think that it’s difficult for me knowing

76:52 – 76:56 what I know now of course we can all be

76:54 – 76:59 wrong you know in the next 10 seconds

76:56 – 77:02 right but it’s difficult for me to know

76:59 – 77:05 to to think knowing what I know now that

77:02 – 77:07 this is going to be translatable to six

77:05 – 77:10 billion people in a non technological

77:07 – 77:12 form we’ve analyzed the data from the

77:10 – 77:14 finest course every way we possibly can

77:12 – 77:16 and one key thing about the finders

77:14 – 77:19 course that failed I think our biggest

77:16 – 77:22 failure to date is that we have not been

77:19 – 77:23 able to find a way to match people up

77:22 – 77:25 with a method that works for them that’s

77:23 – 77:26 what the entire course tries to do right

77:25 – 77:27 you basically go a week to week to week

77:26 – 77:29 and you try different stuff that is all

77:27 – 77:31 the best stuff that rose to the top of

77:29 – 77:32 our research and you do it in a certain

77:31 – 77:35 systematic way that increases its

77:32 – 77:37 effectiveness and all that but the

77:35 – 77:38 reality is fundamentally what we were

77:37 – 77:39 trying to get out with that experiment

77:38 – 77:41 what we were trying to do with that

77:39 – 77:43 experiment was not really refine our

77:41 – 77:45 understanding of fundamental well-being

77:43 – 77:47 which we did but it was to figure out

77:45 – 77:49 can I give you a pencil and paper

77:47 – 77:50 questionnaire or interview you for a

77:49 – 77:52 couple of minutes or so

77:50 – 77:55 thing and then say you know what Alex

77:52 – 77:57 Headless way is your thing man that’s

77:55 – 77:58 what you need that’s the thing you know

77:57 – 77:60 just do it for this week and you’ll be

77:58 – 78:01 you’ll be awake by Friday you know

77:60 – 78:04 you’ll transition to fundamental well

78:01 – 78:05 being by Friday and it’ll all be good

78:04 – 78:07 come back to us and you know I’ll give

78:05 – 78:08 you some integration stuff just let me I

78:07 – 78:10 mean maybe it’ll happen Wednesday

78:08 – 78:11 Thursday you know whenever it happens

78:10 – 78:13 just you know just ping me and I’ll

78:11 – 78:15 shoot you some integration stuff over

78:13 – 78:17 right so we never we have not yet

78:15 – 78:19 reached a point with our data analysis

78:17 – 78:21 that has allowed us to do that you still

78:19 – 78:24 have to take the whole program and who

78:21 – 78:27 the heck you know in a developing

78:24 – 78:29 country can spend 2 to 3 hours the Dyke

78:27 – 78:31 in the West it’s more doable for a

78:29 – 78:33 certain class of people at least to be

78:31 – 78:36 able to do that like it can have the

78:33 – 78:38 impact that it has among the people that

78:36 – 78:39 it’s sort of a possible fit for but it

78:38 – 78:42 is not going to scale to a billion

78:39 – 78:45 people it’s not going to scale to 500

78:42 – 78:47 million people and because we we

78:45 – 78:49 fundamentally were not able to be

78:47 – 78:52 successful at creating that matching

78:49 – 78:54 algorithm which could potentially allow

78:52 – 78:56 a more traditional thing like just a

78:54 – 78:58 psychological intervention like a

78:56 – 79:00 meditation or a cognitive science hack

78:58 – 79:03 or a positive psychology exercise or

79:00 – 79:05 whatever it is to scale you know it’s I

79:03 – 79:08 think in my mind it’s going to come down

79:05 – 79:09 to technology unless you know I mean you

79:08 – 79:10 never know we have machine learning

79:09 – 79:12 people and AI people that are

79:10 – 79:13 volunteering their time on the project

79:12 – 79:15 looking at that data deep mining it

79:13 – 79:17 something might come out of that that

79:15 – 79:19 just humans couldn’t see with standard

79:17 – 79:21 statistical methods and analyses I won’t

79:19 – 79:22 rule that out and so you know I could

79:21 – 79:26 you know we could get off the phone I

79:22 – 79:28 could check my email and be like oh hey

79:26 – 79:29 Alex I got to revise that statement

79:28 – 79:31 right that could happen at any time but

79:29 – 79:33 I’m not a but I’m assuming if that still

79:31 – 79:35 wouldn’t shut down the tech path either

79:33 – 79:38 I mean the tech path would still have to

79:35 – 79:41 continue to go forward as well I think

79:38 – 79:45 the point you made about the sound

79:41 – 79:48 frequency of the Tibetan symbols is I

79:45 – 79:50 think undeniable at some level so it

79:48 – 79:51 does seem like the technology has to go

79:50 – 79:55 forward that has to be part of this

79:51 – 79:57 mission yeah yeah I think so unless

79:55 – 79:59 something – unless something

79:57 – 80:03 dramatically changes right now where

79:59 – 80:06 we’re basically pinning our hopes on

80:03 – 80:08 a sort of a combination of transcranial

80:06 – 80:10 light stimulation meaning light that

80:08 – 80:15 goes through the skull and transcranial

80:10 – 80:16 ultrasound stimulation and the problem

80:15 – 80:18 for the transcranial ultrasound

80:16 – 80:21 stimulation is it once it’s out of the

80:18 – 80:23 lab there’s going to be you know

80:21 – 80:25 ridiculously long and expensive FDA

80:23 – 80:26 processes and you know stuff like that

80:25 – 80:31 in order to make it more widely

80:26 – 80:33 available to people and so it’s it’s got

80:31 – 80:35 a lot of regulatory hurdles for the West

80:33 – 80:36 associated with I think that’s less true

80:35 – 80:38 I think it can probably affect a lot of

80:36 – 80:41 populations in places like India or

80:38 – 80:42 China or whatever before that and

80:41 – 80:46 probably those populations will be the

80:42 – 80:47 ones that the benefit initially but and

80:46 – 80:49 I think that’s fine because there’s

80:47 – 80:51 billions of people there we’re not

80:49 – 80:53 really sort of country centric per se in

80:51 – 80:55 any way you know we’re sort of just like

80:53 – 80:59 getting this to as many people as we can

80:55 – 81:00 possibly get it to oriented so but the

80:59 – 81:03 transcranial ultrasound stuff you know

81:00 – 81:04 the our chief scientist here literally

81:03 – 81:05 came to me a couple of morning’s ago and

81:04 – 81:07 was like you know I think we’ve reached

81:05 – 81:09 the point where we have where we can say

81:07 – 81:11 that we’re really reliably getting

81:09 – 81:13 people into location1 a fundamental well

81:11 – 81:16 being you know with this technology now

81:13 – 81:18 it’s still extremely expensive you know

81:16 – 81:21 you’re talking about really sort of all

81:18 – 81:24 I mean our budget is in the millions a

81:21 – 81:26 year for that project and so if you were

81:24 – 81:28 to divide out you know the amount of

81:26 – 81:32 stimulation time that’s possibly today

81:28 – 81:34 by millions of dollars you know you get

81:32 – 81:36 to a very high cost for that at this

81:34 – 81:38 particular moment in time but you know

81:36 – 81:41 we get up every day and we work on it

81:38 – 81:42 and we’re advancing it and you know we

81:41 – 81:43 have a lot of really great people

81:42 – 81:46 working with us all around the world on

81:43 – 81:49 it and it’s easy for me to see over the

81:46 – 81:50 next four or five six years having

81:49 – 81:53 something that is really quite

81:50 – 81:55 accessible technologically okay Jeffrey

81:53 – 81:56 we’ve been at this for an hour and a

81:55 – 81:58 half you’ve been incredibly generous

81:56 – 82:01 with your time I really do hope people

81:58 – 82:03 check out this book the finders and your

82:01 – 82:06 website where you can just a ton of

82:03 – 82:08 information once you dive in you’ll find

82:06 – 82:12 your own path I can’t resist though

82:08 – 82:14 talking about a couple of map versus

82:12 – 82:17 territory questions because as we said

82:14 – 82:21 you are a social scientist but

82:17 – 82:24 you’re also location for and beyond guy

82:21 – 82:26 which I’ll leave folks to figure out for

82:24 – 82:29 themselves what have you learned what

82:26 – 82:32 has your personal experience been with

82:29 – 82:36 some of the things that I care about in

82:32 – 82:39 terms of this extended consciousness

82:36 – 82:42 realm that does seem to be out there

82:39 – 82:44 once we get past this busy ordinary

82:42 – 82:47 state that bogs this down minute to

82:44 – 82:50 minute so I want to talk about nd ease

82:47 – 82:54 psychedelics hungry ghosts and demons

82:50 – 82:57 shamans and magic ET all these things

82:54 – 82:59 are things that interest me I’ll let you

82:57 – 83:00 pull on any one of those threads to

82:59 – 83:03 begin with

83:00 – 83:06 sure so the in the finders I’d I had to

83:03 – 83:10 add a chapter on location five and

83:06 – 83:11 beyond because frankly too many people

83:10 – 83:13 who have just taken the finders course

83:11 – 83:14 experiment and participated in the

83:13 – 83:16 finders course experiment have gone

83:14 – 83:18 there now and so I had hesitated for a

83:16 – 83:20 long time and talking about those

83:18 – 83:22 locations and let me just say why before

83:20 – 83:23 we get into what you’re talking about

83:22 – 83:25 which we can totally talk about I

83:23 – 83:27 hesitate about talking about these

83:25 – 83:28 latter locations because I think they’re

83:27 – 83:30 a little dangerous

83:28 – 83:32 this is this goes back to where systems

83:30 – 83:34 do have tremendous value you know like I

83:32 – 83:36 have an enormous amount of respect for

83:34 – 83:37 Tibetan Buddhism for instance I think

83:36 – 83:40 that they have a very detailed map I

83:37 – 83:42 think that they have a huge range of

83:40 – 83:45 methods that are highly and precisely

83:42 – 83:47 effective across that map very difficult

83:45 – 83:49 for Westerners to get to I think even

83:47 – 83:51 very devoted Westerners and part of that

83:49 – 83:53 is that because they believe that a lot

83:51 – 83:56 of those methods only work literally at

83:53 – 83:57 specific physical places even and so and

83:56 – 83:59 some of and it’s interesting because

83:57 – 83:60 they’ve sort of lost they feel if you

83:59 – 84:02 really talk to these guys they feel like

83:60 – 84:03 they’ve sort of lost some of their

84:02 – 84:04 effectiveness at their system because

84:03 – 84:06 you know the Chinese have taken those

84:04 – 84:08 places in some cases and it’s it’s all

84:06 – 84:10 very complicated but just generically

84:08 – 84:12 speaking I have an enormous amount of

84:10 – 84:14 respect for that particular system and

84:12 – 84:16 the degree of detail and the fine grain

84:14 – 84:17 detail and whatnot sort of is associated

84:16 – 84:20 in it one of those things that they

84:17 – 84:23 provide is the support for these later

84:20 – 84:25 locations like they really understand

84:23 – 84:27 what’s needed when you go to them they

84:25 – 84:29 understand that they’re you know very

84:27 – 84:31 isolating their version of them there’s

84:29 – 84:32 a couple of major versions of them and

84:31 – 84:34 they sort of have a preferred version of

84:32 – 84:36 them and so there is a you know very

84:34 – 84:38 isolating but also somewhat dangerous

84:36 – 84:42 and so imagine that you have sort of

84:38 – 84:44 deconstructed the sense of self down to

84:42 – 84:47 the point where you’re getting to the

84:44 – 84:49 you’re getting so early in your brains

84:47 – 84:50 programming if you just think of your

84:49 – 84:52 brain is sort of this programmed thing

84:50 – 84:54 that has been you had code layer on top

84:52 – 84:55 of code layered on top of code layer on

84:54 – 84:56 top of code you’re sort of stripping

84:55 – 84:58 those off or you’re reprogramming them

84:56 – 84:59 in different ways that are convenient as

84:58 – 85:01 you go through this process and you get

84:59 – 85:03 down low enough you eventually hit

85:01 – 85:06 things like your actual binding to your

85:03 – 85:07 sensory system in certain ways and so

85:06 – 85:10 what people actually will talk about as

85:07 – 85:12 literally losing consciousness for

85:10 – 85:13 periods of time like having a glitch in

85:12 – 85:16 the system

85:13 – 85:18 where they lose consciousness and you

85:16 – 85:21 know I’ve talked to people who were

85:18 – 85:24 found a weekend you know laying on their

85:21 – 85:27 floor rush to the hospital you know

85:24 – 85:29 we’re lucky to have lived from doing

85:27 – 85:31 certain practices that you know move

85:29 – 85:33 them into these later locations but

85:31 – 85:35 we’re doing them in an unsupervised way

85:33 – 85:38 alone in their apartment just go on

85:35 – 85:40 YouTube and look at sadhus who arms are

85:38 – 85:42 deformed because they’ve held them in a

85:40 – 85:44 particular position for long periods of

85:42 – 85:47 time and it’s another extension of the

85:44 – 85:49 same thing of reprogramming down to a

85:47 – 85:52 level where you’re yeah but go ahead

85:49 – 85:54 yeah so it’s with that caveat I just I

85:52 – 85:55 always want to talk about that caveat

85:54 – 85:58 before I talk about these later

85:55 – 86:00 locations because I think people will

85:58 – 86:02 hear like oh that sounds cool but I

86:00 – 86:05 think it’s also very important to be

86:02 – 86:07 realistic about all of this so in

86:05 – 86:08 locations 5 through 9 which is the next

86:07 – 86:10 batch we look at one through four as a

86:08 – 86:12 grouping we look at 5 through 9 as a

86:10 – 86:14 grouping in locations 5 through 9 and

86:12 – 86:17 the stuff that you’re interested in one

86:14 – 86:20 of the things that we often see is is

86:17 – 86:23 actually an increase in accuracy of

86:20 – 86:26 intuition what people might call sort of

86:23 – 86:28 psychic premonitions and stuff like that

86:26 – 86:31 I think that’s that’s very interesting

86:28 – 86:35 it’s been difficult for us to test that

86:31 – 86:37 on you know a practical level we have

86:35 – 86:40 been able to test it in some way

86:37 – 86:41 and also Dean Radin has tested some of

86:40 – 86:44 these people you know with some of his

86:41 – 86:46 presentiment analysis stuff

86:44 – 86:48 and I actually haven’t asked Dean if

86:46 – 86:50 he’s published that anywhere I only

86:48 – 86:52 talked to him about it but he you know

86:50 – 86:54 in conversation says that he has seen

86:52 – 86:56 very statistically significant

86:54 – 86:59 differences and these populations of

86:56 – 87:01 people who are in you know p n SC

86:59 – 87:03 fundamental well-being let’s dive into

87:01 – 87:05 that for a second Dean Radin just

87:03 – 87:06 interviewed him a couple months ago so

87:05 – 87:09 now he’s into the magic thing right so

87:06 – 87:11 now he’s like let’s look at magic and

87:09 – 87:13 what that means and as part of that the

87:11 – 87:15 thing that’s confusing for me is he says

87:13 – 87:18 you know I never even considered spirit

87:15 – 87:20 quote-unquote until a year ago which on

87:18 – 87:22 one hand I get and I appreciate on the

87:20 – 87:24 other hand ago how are you even you know

87:22 – 87:26 she caught a lot of catching up to do

87:24 – 87:29 but the other thing is so you enter that

87:26 – 87:31 realm and you say what does that mean

87:29 – 87:34 what does that mean that one of the

87:31 – 87:37 fungi you’re going to study claims to

87:34 – 87:39 have manifested a bunch of crows that

87:37 – 87:42 flew through his chimney and shit all

87:39 – 87:44 over the floor and the next day the

87:42 – 87:45 crows weren’t there but the crows shit

87:44 – 87:47 was there on the floor for him to see

87:45 – 87:51 and for everyone else to see I mean this

87:47 – 87:54 is altering reality in a way that

87:51 – 87:57 doesn’t fit with our ordinary

87:54 – 87:59 understanding even if we go location one

87:57 – 88:03 through four we get the sense that there

87:59 – 88:05 is this again map versus territory that

88:03 – 88:09 there’s this territory out there that

88:05 – 88:12 might be completely different from the

88:09 – 88:15 map that we normally associate with it

88:12 – 88:17 in is that ok I like as a social

88:15 – 88:18 scientist saying you know don’t worry

88:17 – 88:21 about that

88:18 – 88:23 shut up and calculate become shut up and

88:21 – 88:25 meditate I think there’s a practical

88:23 – 88:27 part of that yeah I you know I wonder a

88:25 – 88:30 lot about that as well because there

88:27 – 88:34 certainly that’s a very consistent

88:30 – 88:35 report in that location 5 to 9 range and

88:34 – 88:39 the further someone goes in that

88:35 – 88:41 location 5 to 9 range the more integral

88:39 – 88:44 to their life those types of reports

88:41 – 88:46 seem to be it’s it’s interesting I was

88:44 – 88:48 talking to a famous meditation teacher

88:46 – 88:50 who was here at the house getting

88:48 – 88:52 stemmed a couple of months ago

88:50 – 88:56 when I say house we have a facility here

88:52 – 88:59 that is like a big Silicon Valley style

88:56 – 89:01 startup house type place where the team

88:59 – 89:03 lives and where we do a lot of our

89:01 – 89:05 research that’s nice because we can have

89:03 – 89:06 people in and they can stay and you know

89:05 – 89:09 the best conversations always occur off

89:06 – 89:11 hours and things like that right so you

89:09 – 89:13 kind of want to facilitate that and we

89:11 – 89:16 were talking about locations five

89:13 – 89:18 through nine and he was very negative on

89:16 – 89:21 like the psychic stuff and the

89:18 – 89:23 psychokinesis stuff that comes after

89:21 – 89:26 location nine and and stuff like that he

89:23 – 89:28 was just like you know you cannot sort

89:26 – 89:29 his belief was you cannot sort locations

89:28 – 89:32 you should not be thinking of that as

89:29 – 89:34 the primary change that occurs in that

89:32 – 89:35 location or whatever else and our point

89:34 – 89:38 was well you know listen we’re looking

89:35 – 89:41 at the major we’re primarily cognitive

89:38 – 89:43 science focused and phenomenological you

89:41 – 89:44 know report focused as well and if

89:43 – 89:46 that’s like the major change in

89:44 – 89:48 phenomenological reports and assert or

89:46 – 89:49 one of the major changes then that’s and

89:48 – 89:53 then that becomes a major category of

89:49 – 89:54 these self-reported evidence to us we’re

89:53 – 89:56 not gonna leave that on the table but it

89:54 – 89:60 was interesting because he had this very

89:56 – 90:02 almost like a like a fervent anti for

89:60 – 90:05 God’s sakes don’t talk about that kind

90:02 – 90:08 of way about him now he’s he’s very much

90:05 – 90:09 like a mainstream sort of teacher very

90:08 – 90:12 popular a very mainstream sort of

90:09 – 90:15 teacher and I think maybe maybe it’s a

90:12 – 90:16 branding decision I’m not sure maybe he

90:15 – 90:18 just doesn’t necessarily want to

90:16 – 90:20 associate it with this sort of more

90:18 – 90:21 scientifically or in a meditation brand

90:20 – 90:25 or something like that I don’t know but

90:21 – 90:27 certainly I think I cannot deny that

90:25 – 90:30 this is reported by people in that range

90:27 – 90:32 as increasingly integral to their

90:30 – 90:33 interaction with the world and of course

90:32 – 90:36 one of the things that it makes you

90:33 – 90:38 wonder is like actually let me tell a

90:36 – 90:41 couple of other stories so there have

90:38 – 90:44 been a number of major you know random

90:41 – 90:46 number generator type research groups

90:44 – 90:48 and experiments and stuff that have gone

90:46 – 90:49 on no doubt your interest in this area

90:48 – 90:51 familiar with all of those types of

90:49 – 90:52 things so you know there’s lots of

90:51 – 90:54 different devices there’s lots of

90:52 – 90:55 different researchers and groups have

90:54 – 90:57 looked into this all over the world I

90:55 – 90:60 was having a conversation with one of

90:57 – 91:02 those groups one time and I was asking

90:60 – 91:04 them about the and this was way before I

91:02 – 91:07 was doing this this was like 2,000 sick

91:04 – 91:09 was there just a random occurrence in my

91:07 – 91:12 life really I just wound up having

91:09 – 91:13 dinner with some of them I asked them

91:12 – 91:16 about just sort of the internal

91:13 – 91:19 phenomenological state of people who

91:16 – 91:21 were able to were basically what they

91:19 – 91:23 said is that although they didn’t talk

91:21 – 91:26 about it publicly it seemed like they

91:23 – 91:27 had like one or two superstars or two or

91:26 – 91:29 three superstars or something I don’t

91:27 – 91:31 remember in that research population and

91:29 – 91:34 that when they there’s their results

91:31 – 91:36 were so sick so statistically

91:34 – 91:37 significant that when they folded that

91:36 – 91:39 in with the rest of the research

91:37 – 91:40 population they got a slight statistical

91:39 – 91:42 significance for the overall research

91:40 – 91:44 population right but because of their

91:42 – 91:45 protocol and their IRB and stuff they

91:44 – 91:46 couldn’t really just pull out those

91:45 – 91:48 three people and only report those

91:46 – 91:49 results but they became interested

91:48 – 91:50 obviously and who those people were and

91:49 – 91:52 what they were thinking and what their

91:50 – 91:54 experience of it was and all of that and

91:52 – 91:56 they basically described all of them

91:54 – 91:58 basically described a dissolution of the

91:56 – 92:01 individualized sense of self and a sense

91:58 – 92:03 of merging with the apparatus with the

92:01 – 92:06 experimental apparatus was their term

92:03 – 92:08 for their stuff experimental brains I

92:06 – 92:12 had another conversation with another

92:08 – 92:14 group this was one of the famous sr i–

92:12 – 92:15 people right so a lot of their stuff is

92:14 – 92:17 public and a lot of their stuff is

92:15 – 92:20 published and I know one of the things

92:17 – 92:21 that Russ Russ Targ has I’m sure talked

92:20 – 92:24 about publicly aside and this can’t be a

92:21 – 92:26 secret is that he basically took this

92:24 – 92:28 clock off his mantle one day and put

92:26 – 92:30 some mirrors on it and then like bounced

92:28 – 92:32 some lasers off those mirrors and then

92:30 – 92:34 like sort of put it behind a glass panel

92:32 – 92:35 on one end of a room and he brought

92:34 – 92:37 people in and he said make the pendulum

92:35 – 92:39 move you know which was one of those

92:37 – 92:40 rotational pent not like left-right

92:39 – 92:41 pendulum but like one of those

92:40 – 92:44 rotational pendulums on a mantel clock

92:41 – 92:46 ring and he’s like make those move and

92:44 – 92:48 he’d set up the lasers to basically

92:46 – 92:50 detect even the slightest movement with

92:48 – 92:53 uses a laser physicist right you know

92:50 – 92:54 bouncing off the mirrors and this was

92:53 – 92:55 you know government-funded research the

92:54 – 92:58 tune of many many millions of dollars

92:55 – 93:00 down here in Palo Alto California and

92:58 – 93:02 one day one of their research subjects

93:00 – 93:03 who thought that this was just the most

93:02 – 93:05 ludicrous thing that he’d ever been

93:03 – 93:08 assigned to as part of his internship at

93:05 – 93:10 SR I one day he’s sitting there and lo

93:08 – 93:12 and behold the thing moves and he learns

93:10 – 93:14 how to move it when asked about you know

93:12 – 93:17 what was that like for you he described

93:14 – 93:18 the same thing he described it was the

93:17 – 93:20 sense of a dissolution of my

93:18 – 93:23 dividual eyes sense of self and a sense

93:20 – 93:26 of merging with the apparatus and then

93:23 – 93:28 somehow I couldn’t seem to affect it and

93:26 – 93:30 for him that eventually became a

93:28 – 93:32 persistent fundamental well-being he

93:30 – 93:34 actually used that as a doorway to get

93:32 – 93:35 to fundamental well-being it which is

93:34 – 93:36 why I sort of stored these stories in

93:35 – 93:38 the back of my head over the years

93:36 – 93:39 because I think to myself well maybe

93:38 – 93:40 someday I will be able to invent

93:39 – 93:42 something like this there’s another

93:40 – 93:44 easier way to access fundamental

93:42 – 93:46 well-being there and then a third

93:44 – 93:48 example another set of research done

93:46 – 93:49 very very if I tell you what the

93:48 – 93:51 apparatus is you’re gonna immediately

93:49 – 93:53 know who it is so I’m not going to tell

93:51 – 93:56 what the apparatus is but really really

93:53 – 93:60 sophisticated apparatus different than

93:56 – 94:02 the random number generator stuff and I

93:60 – 94:03 just so happened to be there practically

94:02 – 94:05 the day this apparatus showed up and I

94:03 – 94:06 just happened to be hanging out with the

94:05 – 94:10 scientist in his office just sort of

94:06 – 94:12 catching up and talking hanging out and

94:10 – 94:14 their first research subject on the

94:12 – 94:16 apparatus was in doing using it you know

94:14 – 94:18 and they were – is she popped her head

94:16 – 94:20 in and she’s like okay you know I’ve got

94:18 – 94:22 to go home and he was like okay you know

94:20 – 94:24 great have a good day and I’m like well

94:22 – 94:29 hold on like let’s go look at her

94:24 – 94:30 results right like so we go back in and

94:29 – 94:32 we look and there’s like these bar

94:30 – 94:35 graphs on the screen if I’m remembering

94:32 – 94:36 right and most of them look you know not

94:35 – 94:38 statistically significant and I’m like

94:36 – 94:39 what are the bar graphs and he’s like oh

94:38 – 94:41 they’re individual trials that were

94:39 – 94:43 ronald okay great so can you remember

94:41 – 94:45 what each one of these died asked her

94:43 – 94:46 you know can be the subject could you

94:45 – 94:48 remember what each one of these trials

94:46 – 94:50 were and she’s like sure I remember what

94:48 – 94:53 I was doing for each one of them and so

94:50 – 94:55 I had her walk me through them walk us

94:53 – 94:57 through them and then she gets the last

94:55 – 94:59 couple which were very significant like

94:57 – 95:00 like you know imagine like little stubby

94:59 – 95:02 bar graphs and then really really tall

95:00 – 95:03 bar graphs right I mean like there were

95:02 – 95:05 like a night and day difference clearly

95:03 – 95:07 between these sessions and the other

95:05 – 95:08 ones and I was like okay what did you do

95:07 – 95:11 for this one and where she’s not

95:08 – 95:14 previously had any hesitation in

95:11 – 95:16 answering that question she paused and

95:14 – 95:22 you could just see the wheels turning

95:16 – 95:25 you know like if I gotta tell him and

95:22 – 95:27 I’m like you know listen think about

95:25 – 95:30 where you are right now right there’s

95:27 – 95:32 nothing that you could say it’s a döner

95:30 – 95:35 i that we’re not going to be like okay

95:32 – 95:38 whatever and so finally she’s like okay

95:35 – 95:42 well I can do this thing where it’s sort

95:38 – 95:47 of like I can make me go away she’s like

95:42 – 95:47 I know that sounds a little crazy

95:47 – 95:52 basically describe the same thing this

95:50 – 95:54 the dissolution of her sense of self

95:52 – 95:56 right I’m merging with the experimental

95:54 – 95:57 apparatus and those are the two trials

95:56 – 96:00 that robbed the charts or whatever else

95:57 – 96:03 and so those types of data points from

96:00 – 96:05 very disparate labs where I know that in

96:03 – 96:08 many cases they don’t even know each

96:05 – 96:12 other’s stories to exchange information

96:08 – 96:15 separated by over a decade

96:12 – 96:16 you know separated by many decades if

96:15 – 96:18 you include the SSRI data and probably

96:16 – 96:23 when that happened I mean who knows when

96:18 – 96:27 that happened that to me says there’s

96:23 – 96:30 there there is a potential for some sort

96:27 – 96:32 of interface between a reduction in what

96:30 – 96:34 is the traditional and narrative sense

96:32 – 96:36 of self or the ago extensive south or

96:34 – 96:39 the symbolic sense of South or whatever

96:36 – 96:41 we want to call it it’s it seems like

96:39 – 96:43 maybe I don’t know you know

96:41 – 96:45 it’s not something I’m working actively

96:43 – 96:47 on or whatever but just looking at these

96:45 – 96:49 different data presentations looking

96:47 – 96:50 it’s been reported to us from research

96:49 – 96:52 subjects from their own phenomenological

96:50 – 96:55 experience or whatever it seems possible

96:52 – 96:57 at least that that the normal sense of

96:55 – 96:59 self is just using so much of the system

96:57 – 97:02 and has so much noise generated in the

96:59 – 97:05 system that when that the more that

97:02 – 97:07 quiets down and the more you know the

97:05 – 97:08 more the system has the capacity to just

97:07 – 97:11 listen to something going on in the

97:08 – 97:13 background you know we can’t be

97:11 – 97:15 physically separated from the underlying

97:13 – 97:17 quantum reality we’ve all got to be

97:15 – 97:20 connected it’s some energetic level in

97:17 – 97:22 some way it’s not inconceivable to me

97:20 – 97:24 that there’s a potential mechanism of

97:22 – 97:27 communication there or that there’s some

97:24 – 97:28 degree of sensing that in some way it

97:27 – 97:30 could be I have nothing to do with

97:28 – 97:32 quantum stuff I mean I don’t know right

97:30 – 97:34 but this is the fact that you and I

97:32 – 97:35 think that we’re separate or that I

97:34 – 97:37 think that I’m separate from this house

97:35 – 97:39 or something and you know I don’t

97:37 – 97:40 actually anymore my own personal

97:39 – 97:42 experience of the world doesn’t feel

97:40 – 97:44 separate but I remember when I did and

97:42 – 97:45 certainly most people would say that

97:44 – 97:46 they do feel that way

97:45 – 97:48 that

97:46 – 97:52 you know that just doesn’t seem accurate

97:48 – 97:53 from a physics perspective right and so

97:52 – 97:56 I don’t I don’t it doesn’t seem

97:53 – 98:00 unreasonable to me that our system would

97:56 – 98:04 evolve in such a way that I need to you

98:00 – 98:07 know eat poop take care of my child you

98:04 – 98:09 know I need a certain level of cognition

98:07 – 98:10 in my system in order to do all that but

98:09 – 98:12 perhaps if you can just keep quieting

98:10 – 98:14 that system down more and more and more

98:12 – 98:17 and more access to other things but come

98:14 – 98:18 possible and then even on the PK front

98:17 – 98:20 right the psychokinesis front which is

98:18 – 98:22 the academic term for moving stuff with

98:20 – 98:25 your mind and making stuff manifest in

98:22 – 98:26 whatever even on that front I think it’s

98:25 – 98:28 an interesting question right because I

98:26 – 98:29 can clearly move my high end of my arm

98:28 – 98:30 pretty easily

98:29 – 98:33 what if that thing is equally possible

98:30 – 98:36 so what we see from location 10 on is

98:33 – 98:38 increased reports of what people

98:36 – 98:41 basically feel are like increased skill

98:38 – 98:42 with what they would call you know the

98:41 – 98:44 site type of psychokinesis or mind

98:42 – 98:45 matter interaction and I have to say

98:44 – 98:48 I’ve seen some crazy stuff over the

98:45 – 98:50 years but I’m not a magician right like

98:48 – 98:52 it’s pretty easy to fool me with that

98:50 – 98:54 stuff and so I always have to keep that

98:52 – 98:57 in mind I can’t tell how Penn & Teller

98:54 – 98:59 is doing a trick right if they’re like I

98:57 – 99:01 did that with my mind I’d be like yeah

98:59 – 99:02 but I think Russell Targ and those guys

99:01 – 99:03 had a pretty good handle on it I mean

99:02 – 99:05 the protocol for some of those

99:03 – 99:08 experiments it’s pretty frickin simple

99:05 – 99:10 so I never like that those kind of

99:08 – 99:13 skeptical explanations you know which

99:10 – 99:15 are so more easily debunked than the

99:13 – 99:18 other but leaving that for a minute

99:15 – 99:20 because one more topic that and I don’t

99:18 – 99:22 even know if you want to go there but I

99:20 – 99:27 just published an interview couple

99:22 – 99:30 episodes ago with a guy Navy guy 20 year

99:27 – 99:32 veteran who was part of this UFO

99:30 – 99:34 disclosure that was the largest UFO

99:32 – 99:37 disclosure in history it happened in

99:34 – 99:39 December of 2017 and was in The Wall

99:37 – 99:41 Street Journal and it was on Fox News

99:39 – 99:44 and CBS News in it was everywhere it was

99:41 – 99:46 the disclosure effort and if you blinked

99:44 – 99:47 you missed it because it didn’t get any

99:46 – 99:49 traction so I don’t know where they’re

99:47 – 99:50 going with that that’s a whole other

99:49 – 99:53 story but they came out and said yeah

99:50 – 99:55 okay we haven’t told you the truth this

99:53 – 99:58 stuff really happens here’s a program

99:55 – 99:60 here’s the video of it it happened off

99:58 – 100:02 the coast of San

99:60 – 100:03 look I I interviewed Kevin day says yeah

100:02 – 100:05 I was on board

100:03 – 100:08 it was incredible you know these things

100:05 – 100:10 how is how we tracked him and I had this

100:08 – 100:12 encounter experience now the reason I

100:10 – 100:13 got even interested in all this is

100:12 – 100:16 because I was interested in the

100:13 – 100:19 near-death experience science if you

100:16 – 100:23 will and then some folks have started to

100:19 – 100:25 do the experiencer science as well as

100:23 – 100:26 they can in terms of looking at what

100:25 – 100:30 that experience looks like across

100:26 – 100:32 various people trying to soar through

100:30 – 100:34 that data and is there’s a big overlay

100:32 – 100:36 with the near-death experience it turns

100:34 – 100:39 out a lot of times these are more

100:36 – 100:40 spiritually transformative than we

100:39 – 100:42 previously thought although they break

100:40 – 100:44 into different groups I don’t want to

100:42 – 100:45 get too far afield yeah that’s

100:44 – 100:47 definitely true we’ve interfaced with a

100:45 – 100:50 lot of those researchers here’s the

100:47 – 100:53 point that intrigues me if we accept

100:50 – 100:55 this encounter experience and the guy I

100:53 – 100:58 interviewed Kevin day says it was very

100:55 – 101:01 traumatic for me particularly because I

100:58 – 101:03 had all these symptoms that manifested

101:01 – 101:05 like PTSD complex PTSD and I’m going to

101:03 – 101:07 the vet and they’re going that’s what it

101:05 – 101:10 is I’m going yeah but that doesn’t quite

101:07 – 101:13 fit and then he comes across Jacques

101:10 – 101:15 Vallee Davis this research that they

101:13 – 101:17 compiled on encounters and the

101:15 – 101:20 after-effects of encounters and he goes

101:17 – 101:22 bingo that’s it everything they’re

101:20 – 101:24 saying there across all these people who

101:22 – 101:28 have had these encounters fits my

101:24 – 101:32 experience here’s the question it’s

101:28 – 101:34 pointing towards a technology it’s

101:32 – 101:38 really pointing towards a technology

101:34 – 101:40 that there is this consciousness out

101:38 – 101:44 there and whether it’s manifested in

101:40 – 101:47 whatever these forms are whatever these

101:44 – 101:51 others are they seem to demonstrate the

101:47 – 101:54 ability to manipulate this consciousness

101:51 – 101:56 realm in a way that we kind of

101:54 – 101:58 understand and then kind of completely

101:56 – 102:02 don’t understand telepathy is an example

101:58 – 102:05 screen memory is an example emoting

102:02 – 102:08 telepathically causing you to emote

102:05 – 102:12 certain kind of things you know whether

102:08 – 102:13 they’re sexual or not feeling things and

102:12 – 102:17 all the stuff

102:13 – 102:20 what do you think about ET have you

102:17 – 102:23 bumped into that at all are you willing

102:20 – 102:25 to be open to that and what do you think

102:23 – 102:27 about in particular what I think about

102:25 – 102:32 what do you think about what that might

102:27 – 102:34 suggest for advanced capabilities along

102:32 – 102:38 these scales that you’re already on

102:34 – 102:42 right because if you’re on this path of

102:38 – 102:47 protocols and technology to move you

102:42 – 102:50 across this scale or location path might

102:47 – 102:52 that be somewhere along that path it’s a

102:50 – 102:56 good question I I am definitely not an

102:52 – 102:59 expert on in the ET space I can say that

102:56 – 103:00 I’ve had a couple of a couple I have had

102:59 – 103:03 a couple of subjects in the early years

103:00 – 103:06 mention it mentioned some sort of

103:03 – 103:09 involvement with ETS and their spiritual

103:06 – 103:12 development more broadly from that there

103:09 – 103:14 are plenty of people who talk about you

103:12 – 103:15 know beings and stuff like that as a

103:14 – 103:18 part there are some people who

103:15 – 103:20 transition to especially further forms

103:18 – 103:23 of fundamental well-being that like

103:20 – 103:25 later locations who have reported only

103:23 – 103:28 having those transitions occur when

103:25 – 103:31 certain when when like a some being will

103:28 – 103:33 materialize and like just like zap them

103:31 – 103:35 into some other location and then the

103:33 – 103:37 being will D materialize right now that

103:35 – 103:39 could be their brain hallucinating in

103:37 – 103:41 the middle of a shift or who knows what

103:39 – 103:44 it could be right so I think it’s a good

103:41 – 103:45 question I don’t know I’ve known I mean

103:44 – 103:47 the thing is I don’t think you have to

103:45 – 103:47 go to extraterrestrial technology for

103:47 – 103:49 that type of stuff

103:47 – 103:51 and you know you spend any time at all

103:49 – 103:53 in the brainstem space and eventually

103:51 – 103:55 you run across some of the people who

103:53 – 103:58 have worked in sort of the black

103:55 – 103:60 projects for the US government doing you

103:58 – 104:02 know non-invasive brain stimulation

103:60 – 104:04 stuff and it’s pretty clear that they

104:02 – 104:05 were that they were able to use

104:04 – 104:07 microwaves I mean the reason we use

104:05 – 104:08 ultrasound is because we’re you know

104:07 – 104:10 we’re a little concerned that if we use

104:08 – 104:13 microwaves we’re gonna get a visit you

104:10 – 104:15 know people telling us to please stop

104:13 – 104:17 that in the in the name of national

104:15 – 104:18 security or something you know I don’t

104:17 – 104:20 know but you know I mean I know

104:18 – 104:22 researchers who have been involved in

104:20 – 104:22 some of this stuff that have they’ve

104:22 – 104:24 clearly been through magnetic

104:22 – 104:27 stimulation they’ve clearly been through

104:24 – 104:30 different forms of stimulation and they

104:27 – 104:32 we had success with generating emotion

104:30 – 104:35 for instance in people or eliciting

104:32 – 104:36 orgasm even or whatever else and so I

104:35 – 104:39 don’t think you necessarily have to go

104:36 – 104:41 to ET technology yeah but it becomes a

104:39 – 104:43 chicken and the egg kind of question if

104:41 – 104:44 you get very far into it I realized that

104:43 – 104:49 so I don’t want to pull you too far

104:44 – 104:51 afield but the technology sharing I

104:49 – 104:53 actually know enough about the linear

104:51 – 104:56 development of that technology and who

104:53 – 104:59 did it at what point over decades to

104:56 – 105:02 know to be able to see that as a as a as

104:59 – 105:04 a highly experimented linear human

105:02 – 105:06 developmental path which is why I use it

105:04 – 105:08 as an example I mean you know I think

105:06 – 105:10 there were some significant missteps and

105:08 – 105:12 some horror stories and anytime you’re

105:10 – 105:14 stimulating the brain with different

105:12 – 105:16 things and you know so I’ve had some

105:14 – 105:20 interaction with with some folks like

105:16 – 105:23 that who really believe they’re just you

105:20 – 105:25 know sort of came out to us and said you

105:23 – 105:27 know listen you should take this brain

105:25 – 105:31 stuff seriously you’re on the right

105:27 – 105:33 track I can’t say anything more specific

105:31 – 105:36 than what I’m gonna tell you here today

105:33 – 105:39 you know for legal reasons but you know

105:36 – 105:41 yes you know and you know and then and

105:39 – 105:44 from those people I’ve roughly gotten a

105:41 – 105:46 chronology of what technologies were

105:44 – 105:48 experimented with when where the ideas

105:46 – 105:50 came from you know that a lot of that

105:48 – 105:52 stuff is not classified in any way and

105:50 – 105:53 so that was sort of the stuff that they

105:52 – 105:55 can help you to paint to pick a

105:53 – 105:58 directional picture around and stuff

105:55 – 105:60 like that and so so I I’d certainly I

105:58 – 106:02 mean you know it’s a massive universe

105:60 – 106:04 out there right probably not alone who

106:02 – 106:06 knows but I haven’t seen anything in

106:04 – 106:08 this space

106:06 – 106:09 I haven’t had to deal with that in any

106:08 – 106:12 way in this space from a data standpoint

106:09 – 106:14 except for a couple of subjects early on

106:12 – 106:16 in the research I do think that I do

106:14 – 106:19 think of these promises hold tremendous

106:16 – 106:20 and if I mean yeah if you’re able to if

106:19 – 106:22 there’s some being out there who is able

106:20 – 106:25 to go across galaxies in an instant

106:22 – 106:26 probably they’ve developed brain

106:25 – 106:29 computer interfaces whatever that might

106:26 – 106:32 be to their species to a level that is

106:29 – 106:36 astonishing from our perspective right

106:32 – 106:38 and that would be hugely beneficial to

106:36 – 106:39 this project I can’t what I want them to

106:38 – 106:42 show up in my living room tomorrow I

106:39 – 106:42 don’t know

106:44 – 106:49 maybe I’m happy with the slope Lottie

106:47 – 106:56 with article path investigate a very

106:49 – 106:59 location three there I might be willing

106:56 – 107:02 to sacrifice the progress for you know

106:59 – 107:05 whatever I don’t have to have done to me

107:02 – 107:08 to say this is joking around but no I I

107:05 – 107:10 get you you know our folks our guests

107:08 – 107:13 again has been dr. Jeffrey Martin you

107:10 – 107:15 can check out his website dr. Jeffrey

107:13 – 107:17 Martin calm but there’s a new book the

107:15 – 107:20 finders I introduced at the beginning

107:17 – 107:24 it’s a very important book if you’re at

107:20 – 107:26 all interested in well-being your

107:24 – 107:29 well-being the planet’s well-being

107:26 – 107:31 everyone’s well-being check it out it’s

107:29 – 107:34 been fantastic having you on Jeffrey and

107:31 – 107:37 reconnecting anything we left out or

107:34 – 107:39 anyplace else that people need to go to

107:37 – 107:42 connect with this you know I think there

107:39 – 107:43 is one place I mean of course there’s

107:42 – 107:45 the normal web sites and stuff which I’m

107:43 – 107:47 sure you stick up on your page but there

107:45 – 107:50 is one thing at least it’s alive at the

107:47 – 107:52 time of this interview and it’s at

107:50 – 107:55 something called explorers course calm

107:52 – 107:57 which is our follow-on project what

107:55 – 107:59 we’ve done is we’ve put up a series of

107:57 – 108:01 videos that we think are important for

107:59 – 108:03 anyone to know about their psychology

108:01 – 108:06 for those who have transitioned to

108:03 – 108:08 fundamental well-being already you know

108:06 – 108:10 oftentimes when someone has transitioned

108:08 – 108:12 to fundamental well-being it’s and it’s

108:10 – 108:14 often in isolation they’re generally not

108:12 – 108:15 in a community as a result of that they

108:14 – 108:17 think that they’re like the only one who

108:15 – 108:20 has experienced certain things or they

108:17 – 108:22 wonder about what’s going to unfold next

108:20 – 108:25 or and the reality is that there’s very

108:22 – 108:28 reliable cycles it’s very useful to know

108:25 – 108:29 about them and you know there’s the sort

108:28 – 108:31 of trade-offs that they’re making in

108:29 – 108:32 their own life the difficulties that

108:31 – 108:34 they’re experiencing with integrating

108:32 – 108:37 and pn SE and fundamental well-being in

108:34 – 108:38 their own life these are things that

108:37 – 108:41 have been experienced by millions of

108:38 – 108:43 people and we’ve got data collected on

108:41 – 108:46 them from thousands of people and so

108:43 – 108:48 we’ve really tried to sort of put the

108:46 – 108:50 most important thing out there and it’s

108:48 – 108:52 just you know it’s just free basically

108:50 – 108:54 you just can go to explore scarce calm

108:52 – 108:56 and you can get that free

108:54 – 108:57 basically it’s the first module of the

108:56 – 108:59 actual explorers course which is another

108:57 – 109:01 experiment that isn’t free but that

108:59 – 109:04 first module contains so much of the

109:01 – 109:06 important core situational you know help

109:04 – 109:08 you understand your life sort of stuff

109:06 – 109:10 that everybody everybody that took that

109:08 – 109:12 course was like you know you should just

109:10 – 109:13 make this available this has to be

109:12 – 109:15 available to people if I would have had

109:13 – 109:16 this years ago my life would have been

109:15 – 109:18 so totally different and so I was

109:16 – 109:19 thought why not so we just basically put

109:18 – 109:21 it up there you can’t even actually

109:19 – 109:23 order at this moment maybe we should

109:21 – 109:24 change that but you can’t even order the

109:23 – 109:25 real explorers course or get to the

109:24 – 109:27 great explorers quartz or anything or

109:25 – 109:29 that website which is kind of funny it’s

109:27 – 109:33 literally just that content we just want

109:29 – 109:35 really as many finders as many people

109:33 – 109:37 who experience fundamental well-being as

109:35 – 109:39 possible to really find that so they can

109:37 – 109:41 understand you know how what’s going on

109:39 – 109:44 with them and sort of how best to think

109:41 – 109:47 about integrating it in with modern life

109:44 – 109:48 because what’s strange about this is

109:47 – 109:51 that there’s just not much on it people

109:48 – 109:52 often find audio shanties book the end

109:51 – 109:54 of your world and like cling to it like

109:52 – 109:56 a Bible you know like it’s the one thing

109:54 – 109:58 that they found that speaks to them in

109:56 – 110:00 some way and of course they can read all

109:58 – 110:02 of the seeker spiritual stuff right and

110:00 – 110:05 they’re reading it from a completely new

110:02 – 110:06 lens and understanding it and a much

110:05 – 110:07 more deeper and meaningful level but

110:06 – 110:10 that’s not telling them how to integrate

110:07 – 110:11 stuff with their life it’s just you know

110:10 – 110:13 giving them a little bit of validation

110:11 – 110:14 that they’ve probably reached a certain

110:13 – 110:16 place that these other people that wrote

110:14 – 110:18 the book or something had reached and

110:16 – 110:20 understood I do think that’s actually

110:18 – 110:22 one thing that we have out there that we

110:20 – 110:25 didn’t really talk about but that is

110:22 – 110:26 incredibly incredibly important it’s one

110:25 – 110:27 I think maybe that’s one of the most

110:26 – 110:29 important things that we’ve ever made

110:27 – 110:30 available great great stuff you know

110:29 – 110:33 I’ve stumbled across that just in the

110:30 – 110:35 near-death experience science everyone

110:33 – 110:36 ten years ago was all excited and this

110:35 – 110:38 and that and there were a couple of

110:36 – 110:41 brave people who stood up and said same

110:38 – 110:43 kind of thing hey guys there’s a huge

110:41 – 110:45 integration problem here there’s a huge

110:43 – 110:49 divorce rate increase there’s a huge

110:45 – 110:51 depression kind of thing going on so

110:49 – 110:53 yeah I think you’re you’re onto

110:51 – 110:55 something and it’s awesome that you’re

110:53 – 110:57 addressing it well thanks so much you

110:55 – 110:59 know I love hanging out and talking with

110:57 – 111:00 you we’ve I don’t know if had a

110:59 – 111:03 conversation on camera I suppose is

111:00 – 111:03 off-camera

111:05 – 111:10 this is always a lot of fun yeah it’s

111:08 – 111:11 super fun for me and I really do

111:10 – 111:14 appreciate it hopefully I make it up

111:11 – 111:15 there sometime and I’d love to see the

111:14 – 111:18 place that you are you should totally

111:15 – 111:20 come you should totally come and try out

111:18 – 111:21 our latest technology deal deal deal

111:20 – 111:24 deal

111:21 – 111:29 Jeffrey take care I’ll give you a heads

111:24 – 111:29 up when this comes out all right thanks

tary transport and so on 53:08 – 53:16 those things can only work because the 53:11 – 53:17 universe is magical is you know I’m 53:16 – 53:18 using that term but you know what I mean 53:17 – 53:21 like we live in any animate whether it’s 53:18 – 53:23 consciousness universe so yes and no 53:21 – 53:24 what I would say back and I know this 53:23 – 53:26 has happened to you as well but in 53:24 – 53:28 certainly happen to me having on my 53:26 – 53:30 travels to various like you know sacred 53:28 – 53:33 sites and weird places and being amongst 53:30 – 53:36 like tribal fetish objects and all this 53:33 – 53:39 kind of stuff is that a rock can do that 53:36 – 53:41 if you go to say Marie Laveau’s to in 53:39 – 53:42 New Orleans as you walk up to it your 53:41 – 53:45 blood pressure drops and it’s a tomb 53:42 – 53:48 it’s just it’s from that level of 53:45 – 53:50 reality that the technology can be built 53:48 – 53:52 and who’s to say it has it remember 53:50 – 53:55 you’ve had guests on that can astral 53:52 – 53:59 travel like so who’s to say it hasn’t I 53:55 – 54:02 agree with you that you just end up with 53:59 – 54:04 this kind of infinite or vanishing point 54:02 – 54:06 where we might do it on a mechanistic 54:04 – 54:08 basis or we might do it on an animistic 54:06 – 54:11 basis but you’ll still end up at this 54:08 – 54:14 point the realization that you are in an 54:11 – 54:18 animate magic all consciousness universe 54:14 – 54:20 whatever will will occur and that’s kind 54:18 – 54:21 of where I’m like I’m not sure are you 54:20 – 54:24 yeah 54:21 – 54:27 and are there entities in the galaxy 54:24 – 54:30 that have consciousness ray guns for 54:27 – 54:33 whatever I don’t know you know an 54:30 – 54:35 example do they have do they have red 54:33 – 54:38 iPhone that calls the devil at it like 54:35 – 54:41 yeah probably because you know the the 54:38 – 54:42 UFO contact experience especially when 54:41 – 54:44 you get to things like screen memory and 54:42 – 54:46 so on is a little alarming it’s it’s 54:44 – 54:49 there’s no other question you know I 54:46 – 54:52 think that’s worth thinking with you 54:49 – 54:53 know I could hammer on this on and on 54:52 – 54:55 that you’ve brought up so many great 54:53 – 54:57 points I just think we’re gonna lose 54:55 – 54:59 ourselves and the complexity of it but 54:57 – 55:03 awesome kind of discussion let’s bring 54:59 – 55:05 it back to dr. demian yeah maybe more of 55:03 – 55:07 a down-to-earth kind of discussion that 55:05 – 55:09 you and I have had offline and we’ll 55:07 – 55:13 share as much as you feel comfortable 55:09 – 55:15 with kind of online here but we both 55:13 – 55:17 interviewed dr. Dean Radin you did an 55:15 – 55:20 excellent interview with and then I kind 55:17 – 55:22 of was a little bit meaner to him but 55:20 – 55:24 still I appreciate it very much 55:22 – 55:26 and coming on and if I was mean to him 55:24 – 55:29 if I’m saying I was mean to him it’s 55:26 – 55:32 because the vanishing point that you’re 55:29 – 55:35 talking about I think has to be on the 55:32 – 55:38 forefront of our mind as we walk down 55:35 – 55:40 this this path the vanishing point being 55:38 – 55:44 that we’re going to reach hyperspace 55:40 – 55:47 when we realized that the shaman is no 55:44 – 55:50 different than the et in terms of their 55:47 – 55:52 ability to manipulate the extended 55:50 – 55:56 consciousness realm because it all 55:52 – 55:60 reaches some higher dimension that then 55:56 – 56:02 totally escapes what we can is beyond 55:60 – 56:04 our understanding and that’s where the 56:02 – 56:08 action probably really begins and I just 56:04 – 56:11 wonder as awesome as Dean is and as 56:08 – 56:14 important as his work is can he really 56:11 – 56:15 catch up to there given you know when 56:14 – 56:18 you talk to Dean he says you know to be 56:15 – 56:20 honest with you and I so appreciate his 56:18 – 56:23 honesty is I didn’t even think of the 56:20 – 56:26 term spirit seriously until a year ago 56:23 – 56:30 and if he is on the Vanguard and for 56:26 – 56:32 God’s sakes he is on the Vanguard but if 56:30 – 56:35 he is on the if he is on the edge of 56:32 – 56:38 this does science really has science in 56:35 – 56:41 this sense have a chance of catching up 56:38 – 56:43 um this is where maybe I would swap that 56:41 – 56:45 out again to just be a bit more precise 56:43 – 56:47 and say empiricism and I think Dean has 56:45 – 56:50 got this right like empiricism is 56:47 – 56:53 fascinating because my definition of it 56:50 – 56:55 and it’s a good one philosophically is 56:53 – 56:58 that empiricism is the notion that 56:55 – 57:00 nothing exists outside of sense data and 56:58 – 57:02 and scientific results are a subset of 57:00 – 57:04 sense data because you perceive the 57:02 – 57:09 results right and it invalidates itself 57:04 – 57:10 as a as a full explanation for the 57:09 – 57:13 universe because the statement that 57:10 – 57:15 nothing exists beyond sense data is a 57:13 – 57:17 statement you make without the sense 57:15 – 57:18 data to support it you are making a 57:17 – 57:21 statement about the universe that 57:18 – 57:23 nothing exists that I can’t perceive now 57:21 – 57:26 that but once you realize that 57:23 – 57:28 empiricism becomes exceptionally useful 57:26 – 57:30 because you’ve made it the right size 57:28 – 57:32 and this is how we can do things like 57:30 – 57:36 archeology and whatever and I think Dean 57:32 – 57:40 is absolutely nailed it by the in 57:36 – 57:45 last book by taking the empirical 57:40 – 57:47 exploration of magic and hanumant 57:45 – 57:52 universe the reality of say whatever you 57:47 – 57:55 want to as far as it can and I think he 57:52 – 57:57 was really good with us both at holding 57:55 – 57:59 the line I think he’s like this is 57:57 – 58:01 literally all we can get here but this 57:59 – 58:03 is all that this can show us that 58:01 – 58:06 doesn’t mean that’s all is there in the 58:03 – 58:08 world so I really like the Dean and 58:06 – 58:10 maybe it’s his kind of cosmic function 58:08 – 58:12 in the world I really like the Dean 58:10 – 58:14 holds that light because like I asked if 58:12 – 58:17 it’s true it’s true for especially this 58:14 – 58:20 is real skeptical stuff right like it’s 58:17 – 58:22 true that the data cannot I mean to our 58:20 – 58:25 satisfaction sure can i definitively 58:22 – 58:27 land on the existence of an afterlife or 58:25 – 58:30 spirits or anything that stuff because 58:27 – 58:32 you can’t perceive it because it this is 58:30 – 58:33 how big empiricism is it’s one circle 58:32 – 58:36 and this stuff is outside of it and 58:33 – 58:39 whilst we all agree like the data uproot 58:36 – 58:42 like it’s just that we can’t use this 58:39 – 58:44 one technique to conclusively land on it 58:42 – 58:45 doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist it means 58:44 – 58:47 like it in fact it’s a really good 58:45 – 58:49 argument like empiricism is completely 58:47 – 58:51 filled up with like this this stuff is 58:49 – 58:54 real but we need other techniques we 58:51 – 58:56 need other epistemology is hence why I’m 58:54 – 58:59 interested in that rather than ontology 58:56 – 59:01 to be able to go ok well then where do 58:59 – 59:04 we what other means of truth validation 59:01 – 59:07 exists for us outside of empiricism and 59:04 – 59:09 so I loved both those interviews and 59:07 – 59:12 he’s to be congratulated because we all 59:09 – 59:14 agree like it’s it’s a pretty good case 59:12 – 59:16 that you know the spirit world exists 59:14 – 59:20 and life continues after death but you 59:16 – 59:22 cannot get to it with an empirical model 59:20 – 59:24 conclusively you can get to something is 59:22 – 59:26 going on and it was so good of him to 59:24 – 59:29 kind of go no I will not be drawn 59:26 – 59:31 outside of it and I’m really happy he 59:29 – 59:35 held that line and it leaves us to kind 59:31 – 59:39 of blur though in the way which is where 59:35 – 59:43 we belong we want you on that wall we 59:39 – 59:46 need you on that wall but it’s like it’s 59:43 – 59:48 I mean it’s so good he’s just got such 59:46 – 59:49 the mind and the experience to go like I 59:48 – 59:51 can’t you 59:49 – 59:54 cannot design an experiment to 59:51 – 59:59 objectively demonstrate empirically you 59:54 – 60:03 can’t design with you I’m with you and 59:59 – 60:07 I’m totally 100% supportive of Abdeen I 60:03 – 60:09 love what you said about the magical 60:07 – 60:12 shrinking machine and that is the most 60:09 – 60:15 beautiful metaphor that I’ve heard my 60:12 – 60:16 problem is when I really step back and 60:15 – 60:21 want to be honest and not be so nice is 60:16 – 60:25 that you’ve now shrunk it down to where 60:21 – 60:28 it isn’t that meaningful or important 60:25 – 60:31 science has now obsoleted itself in 60:28 – 60:33 terms of a larger investigation of who 60:31 – 60:35 are we why are we here and you’ve just 60:33 – 60:39 relegated it to us a part of it 60:35 – 60:42 it can help but the shrinking machine 60:39 – 60:45 you know can be a problem and it’s very 60:42 – 60:47 specific about empiricism so empiricism 60:45 – 60:50 isn’t science these are two different 60:47 – 60:54 things science relies on empiricism 60:50 – 60:58 currently exclusively in which as a way 60:54 – 61:01 to as its exclusive epistemology it 60:58 – 61:04 relies on empiricism it doesn’t need to 61:01 – 61:08 and and this is something that Western 61:04 – 61:09 philosophy which is hidden mists but one 61:08 – 61:10 of the things and comes back to what 61:09 – 61:12 we’re talking about there are other 61:10 – 61:13 forms of proof that we have had 61:12 – 61:15 available to us for twenty five hundred 61:13 – 61:17 years we’ve had mathematical proofs 61:15 – 61:20 we’ve had logical proofs we have had for 61:17 – 61:22 whatever they’re worth hold on hold on I 61:20 – 61:25 mean if Dean has helped us make any 61:22 – 61:28 change at all it’s that the shade 61:25 – 61:31 casting that’s been done on empiricism 61:28 – 61:34 is now flipped and what we can say now 61:31 – 61:35 is empiricism really is the only game in 61:34 – 61:38 town because all those other things 61:35 – 61:40 you’re talking about aren’t real we 61:38 – 61:43 can’t really measure things 61:40 – 61:46 no but that’s really we can’t really do 61:43 – 61:48 mathematics we really can’t because it’s 61:46 – 61:50 all an abstraction of something that we 61:48 – 61:53 don’t know what it really is the only 61:50 – 61:56 game so town is in Paris the only game 61:53 – 61:58 is it’s not you’re using empiricism 61:56 – 62:01 which is an epistemology as an ontology 61:58 – 62:02 again and that’s the error so there is 62:01 – 62:04 nothing and this 62:02 – 62:08 the kind of realization that happens 62:04 – 62:10 across disciplines nothing stops there 62:08 – 62:13 is nothing that can prevent you from 62:10 – 62:16 doing that baseline philosophical work 62:13 – 62:19 of what is reality empiricism is the 62:16 – 62:21 next level down and I don’t think it 62:19 – 62:24 makes it I don’t think it diminishes it 62:21 – 62:26 I think it restores it and makes it 62:24 – 62:28 useful again so that it’s not designed 62:26 – 62:30 to be an ontology it’s designed to be an 62:28 – 62:33 epistemology and we keep using it as an 62:30 – 62:35 ontology and if you if you just let it 62:33 – 62:37 be what it is again yes you have to do 62:35 – 62:40 the hard work of going like well that’s 62:37 – 62:42 one method of truth validation but 62:40 – 62:44 nevertheless Here I am as an organism or 62:42 – 62:46 consciousness or whatever in a universe 62:44 – 62:47 that has that capacity what can I learn 62:46 – 62:49 about and this is the Western 62:47 – 62:52 philosophical journey it’s the eastern 62:49 – 62:54 one – in many respects is you nothing 62:52 – 62:57 can stop you there is no like oh look 62:54 – 63:02 done and I have empirically generated 62:57 – 63:04 data that solves a crucial thing that 63:02 – 63:07 every human has to do which is those 63:04 – 63:10 foundational philosophical principles or 63:07 – 63:12 work nothing prevents that and 63:10 – 63:15 empiricism turning it back into an 63:12 – 63:18 epistemology is tremendously useful on 63:15 – 63:19 that personal quest to do so so I don’t 63:18 – 63:22 think I think it’s the opposite I think 63:19 – 63:24 it’s made it better rather than worse to 63:22 – 63:28 make it to just let it be what it was 63:24 – 63:30 initially yeah maybe I’ll move on and 63:28 – 63:32 let it go and the next time we talk I’ll 63:30 – 63:35 I’ll ask you to finish that thought 63:32 – 63:39 about what ontology x’ what maps of the 63:35 – 63:41 territory are really something that we 63:39 – 63:43 can that we can put up on the wall and 63:41 – 63:45 be proud of because I don’t think I 63:43 – 63:47 don’t think they exist but but I don’t 63:45 – 63:49 think any of those other alternative 63:47 – 63:55 ontology is really kind of get a say but 63:49 – 63:59 I shut up and move on so here’s a fun 63:55 – 64:02 one another chance to poke the bear or 63:59 – 64:04 poke the guest as it is in this case but 64:02 – 64:07 I think the data versus interpretation 64:04 – 64:10 thing with regard to social engineering 64:07 – 64:13 what some people call conspiracy which 64:10 – 64:15 is if there ever was a social 64:13 – 64:16 engineering of a term it’s the social 64:15 – 64:19 engineering of 64:16 – 64:22 conspiracy that’s conspiracy as opposed 64:19 – 64:24 to what it really is is 90 percent of 64:22 – 64:26 the time a social engineering project by 64:24 – 64:29 someone by a government either our 64:26 – 64:31 government or a foreign government or a 64:29 – 64:34 corporation or a shadow government or 64:31 – 64:36 somebody I think there’s this data 64:34 – 64:39 versus interpretation thing going on 64:36 – 64:41 people get tired of me talking about the 64:39 – 64:43 Gloria Steinem example but I love it 64:41 – 64:45 because still a lot of people it’s 64:43 – 64:48 something we can touch and we can go and 64:45 – 64:49 actually put our finger on it’s one of 64:48 – 64:52 the few times that one of the players 64:49 – 64:54 actually stands out is stupid enough to 64:52 – 64:57 stand outside and go well yeah I really 64:54 – 65:00 was a player in a social engineering 64:57 – 65:04 project and then we find out that she 65:00 – 65:09 not only was but still is so here’s my 65:04 – 65:15 poke at you to what extent is the 65:09 – 65:19 current kind of neoliberal quasi proto 65:15 – 65:21 pseudo progressive divide a social 65:19 – 65:24 engineering project because it sure as 65:21 – 65:27 hell looks like one to me it looks like 65:24 – 65:29 another version I mean it took me seven 65:27 – 65:31 or eight years into skeptiko to realize 65:29 – 65:34 that biological robot in a meaningless 65:31 – 65:37 universe is not just a bunch of dumb 65:34 – 65:42 guys who haven’t figured out an obvious 65:37 – 65:44 kind of observation it is somehow social 65:42 – 65:46 engineering useful idiot you know isn’t 65:44 – 65:48 it better if we send things down this 65:46 – 65:51 path kind of thing and I always like the 65:48 – 65:54 example you give of well look at the 65:51 – 65:57 frontier science done in the darkest 65:54 – 65:60 corners of those agencies that were way 65:57 – 66:02 past the materialistic model yeah a long 65:60 – 66:05 time ago and I wonder if the same thing 66:02 – 66:09 isn’t going on here so when we see these 66:05 – 66:13 social movements it just to me smacks of 66:09 – 66:17 social engineering what thank you Gordon 66:13 – 66:19 I think some of it yes I think a lot of 66:17 – 66:23 it is inertia so I think we are still in 66:19 – 66:26 the after-effects of either successful 66:23 – 66:29 or abandoned 20th century technocratic 66:26 – 66:33 engineering ones so if you look at FEM 66:29 – 66:36 and I I don’t know quite what Steinem 66:33 – 66:39 was for for the CIA 66:36 – 66:42 other than surveillance but I rather 66:39 – 66:43 suspect it has to do I think they are 66:42 – 66:47 interested in whether feminism could be 66:43 – 66:49 used to reduce population I think I 66:47 – 66:50 think that might have been it because if 66:49 – 66:52 you look at the kind of 20th century 66:50 – 66:55 technocratic project one of the things 66:52 – 66:58 they were concerned about and it’s it’s 66:55 – 66:59 always the case I saw it like a lot of 66:58 – 67:01 things are concerned about is 66:59 – 67:05 overpopulation so I’m not but here we 67:01 – 67:08 are in a in the inertia of a whole bunch 67:05 – 67:12 of different ups and projects from 67:08 – 67:14 Russian meddling to feminism to to all 67:12 – 67:16 the rest of it and we’re kind of in this 67:14 – 67:17 car crash inevitable conclusion of what 67:16 – 67:19 happens because there was so much 67:17 – 67:21 inertia behind them even if they’re not 67:19 – 67:23 running now we’re still caught in the 67:21 – 67:25 tumble of it they’re also as far as I 67:23 – 67:29 can tell looking the world in the last 67:25 – 67:32 few years there are more people private 67:29 – 67:35 entities billionaires whatever you want 67:32 – 67:37 playing a game that used to pretty much 67:35 – 67:38 have one player at least in the West 67:37 – 67:40 like during the Cold War we had one 67:38 – 67:42 player and whether it was because the 67:40 – 67:45 anglo-american alliance whatever you 67:42 – 67:47 want to call it and had the CIA and all 67:45 – 67:49 the rest of it well more or less aligned 67:47 – 67:51 in what they wanted to achieve for the 67:49 – 67:55 West in the 20th century or not if you 67:51 – 67:58 look at it now what isn’t enough so I 67:55 – 68:03 think it’s really we’re in a kind of car 67:58 – 68:05 crash of current ups and the inertia of 68:03 – 68:08 historic ones and I think that’s just 68:05 – 68:10 where we are and it’s a mess you know 68:08 – 68:15 one thing I’d kind of throw out there is 68:10 – 68:18 an explanation of these ops number one I 68:15 – 68:20 always fall back on the reactive versus 68:18 – 68:23 proactive thing which is I think the 68:20 – 68:26 first agenda is hey we have to have a 68:23 – 68:29 foot in the door we have to have a stake 68:26 – 68:33 in that game so yeah you go and you 68:29 – 68:35 co-opt or disrupt or infiltrate feminism 68:33 – 68:37 if for no other reason then we’ll figure 68:35 – 68:38 out what the fuck to do with it later 68:37 – 68:41 let’s just make sure we have 68:38 – 68:43 we can play in that game and that’s the 68:41 – 68:43 British Empire model that’s absolutely 68:43 – 68:45 it 68:43 – 68:49 yeah yeah and I think that’s that’s 68:45 – 68:52 smart but I think if we were gonna if I 68:49 – 68:55 was going to venture a guess on what the 68:52 – 68:59 goal is I think the first goal always 68:55 – 69:01 since constantine has been control sure 68:59 – 69:06 because that’s our job is is to control 69:01 – 69:09 and if we can pacify disrupt in in this 69:06 – 69:12 case when you look at feminism if we can 69:09 – 69:15 atomized the family if we can isolate 69:12 – 69:18 make people more alone afraid less 69:15 – 69:21 connected then we’re always better off 69:18 – 69:23 in terms of from a control standpoint 69:21 – 69:27 yeah it’s easier to control the sheep in 69:23 – 69:29 that way than it is in any other way and 69:27 – 69:31 that’s my concern with like when I look 69:29 – 69:33 at like I have up there the first 69:31 – 69:35 transgender Muslim kind of thing because 69:33 – 69:38 some of these things are actually 69:35 – 69:40 bordering on the kind of comical and 69:38 – 69:45 it’s the same thing in my opinion is 69:40 – 69:49 like is there an issue in terms of 69:45 – 69:51 sexuality in terms of absolutely is 69:49 – 69:55 there an issue in terms of 69:51 – 69:57 transgenderism and and rights and 69:55 – 69:59 certain discretion certainly 69:57 – 70:02 discrimination that’s obvious 69:59 – 70:06 absolutely is there an agenda that keeps 70:02 – 70:08 cropping up in terms of trans now finish 70:06 – 70:12 that with whatever you want 70:08 – 70:16 you know transhumanism trans culture ISM 70:12 – 70:20 trans-atlantic globalization I mean I 70:16 – 70:23 think there’s a lot of things at play 70:20 – 70:25 there in terms of an agenda that seems 70:23 – 70:27 to be playing out in a bunch of 70:25 – 70:30 different ways in this same way of 70:27 – 70:33 atomizing separating and ultimately 70:30 – 70:37 turning people into being more alone 70:33 – 70:39 afraid less connected and less spiritual 70:37 – 70:42 in whatever way we want to kind of 70:39 – 70:43 define that what do you think well well 70:42 – 70:44 that’s kind of why I use the word 70:43 – 70:46 technocracy because I’ll work backwards 70:44 – 70:48 because what you just said there is it’s 70:46 – 70:50 true although I don’t focus here’s the 70:48 – 70:51 thing the 20th century technocratic 70:50 – 70:54 project and you include all the P 70:51 – 70:57 like béarnaise that are that a part of 70:54 – 70:59 all of the 20th century development of 70:57 – 71:02 these capacities right so the 70:59 – 71:06 technocracy thought it fell to these 71:02 – 71:09 rich people to manage the development of 71:06 – 71:11 the world and the West for our benefit 71:09 – 71:13 right so it isn’t even just necessarily 71:11 – 71:15 keeping them alone and afraid that is a 71:13 – 71:18 side effect of well we are the 71:15 – 71:21 technocratic running the world so our 71:18 – 71:23 our competing narratives are here in the 71:21 – 71:24 church and here in the family and so on 71:23 – 71:25 and what we actually want because we’re 71:24 – 71:27 all the doctors 71:25 – 71:29 where are the educators where all are 71:27 – 71:30 this kind of stuff you need to get it 71:29 – 71:33 from us and we will manage the society 71:30 – 71:35 and you will eat the right food and the 71:33 – 71:37 population will grow or not at the rate 71:35 – 71:39 that we determine the economy will work 71:37 – 71:41 where this is this is how this is the 71:39 – 71:43 the demonic goal so it’s funny it’s 71:41 – 71:46 where I wanted to start there on a human 71:43 – 71:48 level that’s the kind of 20th century 71:46 – 71:50 idea I think they’re shooting for it is 71:48 – 71:51 demonic like if you want to go to a 71:50 – 71:53 higher level when you’re talking about 71:51 – 71:55 what are the kind of metaphysical 71:53 – 71:56 implications I have no idea if any of 71:55 – 71:59 these people realize they are being 71:56 – 72:01 ridden by demons but nevertheless the 71:59 – 72:04 goal of this kind of project is it is in 72:01 – 72:06 some literal sense atactic when it comes 72:04 – 72:08 back to what I was saying before about a 72:06 – 72:10 car crash of different real and fake 72:08 – 72:12 things and an existing and historic 72:10 – 72:14 agendas and so on 72:12 – 72:15 it’s a pity that the word trans is used 72:14 – 72:18 returns humanism and something like 72:15 – 72:21 trans rights because and trans-fats like 72:18 – 72:23 it’s actually like it’s and so we had 72:21 – 72:25 this listing where things get conflated 72:23 – 72:30 together and transhumanism 72:25 – 72:30 is like up and down a technocratic plot 72:30 – 72:36 trans experiences and and kind of new 72:34 – 72:38 explore a explorations of gender and 72:36 – 72:40 gender expression and however they are 72:38 – 72:42 regularly weaponized and they’re 72:40 – 72:44 weaponized for intentional reasons and 72:42 – 72:45 also because missus because Connor comes 72:44 – 72:47 on the show a lot of kind of happy 72:45 – 72:49 because of my show we talked about this 72:47 – 72:52 which is you typically find and 72:49 – 72:55 obviously you typically find the 72:52 – 72:57 promotion of or the the defense of trans 72:55 – 72:60 rights and trans visibility on the 72:57 – 73:02 progressive end of the spectrum like 72:60 – 73:04 obviously that is also you guys have 73:02 – 73:06 when you go it encapsulates I think 73:04 – 73:07 where you’re going what’s like how come 73:06 – 73:13 trans people aren’t allowed in the 73:07 – 73:15 military and you’re like yeah it’s great 73:13 – 73:17 just ban the rest of them now they but 73:15 – 73:20 mostly it’s because on the left where 73:17 – 73:23 you find and were you historically and 73:20 – 73:25 typically and rightly I guess finally 73:23 – 73:27 this promotion of the wrong word because 73:25 – 73:28 it sounds like an agenda but let’s just 73:27 – 73:31 say the defense and the prioritization 73:28 – 73:32 of things a trans rights you also get a 73:31 – 73:35 kind of idiotic 73:32 – 73:37 left materialism you you get the kind of 73:35 – 73:40 Marxist reduction of everything back 73:37 – 73:43 into a materialist labor interaction 73:40 – 73:45 based on his you know observations of a 73:43 – 73:47 19th century industrial economy so you 73:45 – 73:50 have a definite weaponization of 73:47 – 73:51 different manifestations of this you 73:50 – 73:54 have the part of it which is good which 73:51 – 73:55 is you know people should be able to 73:54 – 73:57 fucking move how they want to live and 73:55 – 73:60 you also have the people who are trying 73:57 – 74:02 to help as far as I’m concerned aren’t 73:60 – 74:04 helping in the right way because you see 74:02 – 74:06 argument goes round and around on a 74:04 – 74:08 materialist basis because from a 74:06 – 74:11 progressive perspective 74:08 – 74:13 magic for whenever a better word is is 74:11 – 74:17 dirty it’s it’s dirty their Marxist 74:13 – 74:22 don’t like it the 20th century for us 74:17 – 74:23 was they rely on don’t like it you can I 74:22 – 74:26 substitute spurge you say magic I 74:23 – 74:29 substitute spirituality saying if you 74:26 – 74:31 come at it from an atheistic perspective 74:29 – 74:35 it’s all gobbly good within about two 74:31 – 74:37 sentences and unfortunately the the less 74:35 – 74:40 the left the progressive the neoliberal 74:37 – 74:43 has married themselves to just a 74:40 – 74:46 philosophical kind of non-starter nitwit 74:43 – 74:50 again biological robot kind of thing I 74:46 – 74:51 never said yeah and I thought do you 74:50 – 74:55 have any thoughts on that third picture 74:51 – 74:58 down there I’ve just so many odds alone 74:55 – 75:02 too long and your buddy Peter Levin de 74:58 – 75:07 oh my god to me to me this is the most 75:02 – 75:10 clear example of a political role out 75:07 – 75:13 disclosure kind of thing that that is 75:10 – 75:15 masked by again all this bullshit of 75:13 – 75:16 people talking about well did he did 75:15 – 75:20 they did they should they would they 75:16 – 75:23 it’s a complete political disclosure 75:20 – 75:26 rollout let’s look at it as an operation 75:23 – 75:28 and stop looking at it as a true 75:26 – 75:30 disclosure I mean it there was dissin 75:28 – 75:33 information was disclosed but again it’s 75:30 – 75:34 your term weaponized you know what do 75:33 – 75:36 you think a table what do you think 75:34 – 75:37 computer living my Peter Levin to quote 75:36 – 75:39 that I do have to get you to respond to 75:37 – 75:41 the one that just had me pounding on the 75:39 – 75:42 table I was like I gotta push this back 75:41 – 75:44 on Gordon because Gordon like theater 75:42 – 75:48 his freaks retelling of the story is 75:44 – 75:50 well and then Tom DeLonge called me and 75:48 – 75:51 of course I hung up because I didn’t 75:50 – 75:54 believe was times long and he calls me 75:51 – 75:55 back he said it really is and then we 75:54 – 75:57 talked for a long time we go gosh we 75:55 – 75:59 really got to crack this thing there’s 75:57 – 76:01 so much misinformation disinformation 75:59 – 76:03 out there we got to get to the bottom of 76:01 – 76:06 that and we decided well the only way to 76:03 – 76:13 do that was to go to the military so 76:06 – 76:16 that’s what we did . oh really that was 76:13 – 76:18 the only way to get to the bottom of it 76:16 – 76:21 i mean that isn’t even a well-crafted 76:18 – 76:23 story I was like embarrassed that you 76:21 – 76:28 even try and spin that out there to me 76:23 – 76:28 alright I’ve gone too far 76:28 – 76:33 tell me tell me what you think in 76:29 – 76:36 general about the political SIOP 76:33 – 76:38 disclosure that was it was always gonna 76:36 – 76:41 be I won I think it’s an abandoned one 76:38 – 76:43 we’ve had this discussion before I think 76:41 – 76:45 this stuff is to coincide with the movie 76:43 – 76:49 arrival and a Hillary Clinton presidency 76:45 – 76:51 no idea which happened and they it’s 76:49 – 76:53 it’s like a movie right we have it in 76:51 – 76:56 the can with all the money I’ve got it 76:53 – 76:58 because this if you look at what and you 76:56 – 76:59 you’ll be an agreement in most of your 76:58 – 77:01 guests when you talk about this stuff 76:59 – 77:05 will as well if you look at the majority 77:01 – 77:09 of the the kind of classic era UFO cases 77:05 – 77:12 they are patently us cold war propaganda 77:09 – 77:14 covering secret military projects and 77:12 – 77:15 and and trying to kind of like influence 77:14 – 77:16 the Soviets and since it’s like well 77:15 – 77:18 maybe they do have a flying saucer like 77:16 – 77:21 there’s a lot of a lot of stuff in the 77:18 – 77:25 kind of classic cases is that now all of 77:21 – 77:28 a sudden we have yet another kind of op 77:25 – 77:30 of like oh well maybe we have these 77:28 – 77:32 these flying saucers and these these 77:30 – 77:34 special ray guns and and we got this 77:32 – 77:35 from aliens and it’s it’s important that 77:34 – 77:38 the American people know that this is 77:35 – 77:39 here and that was to coincide with what 77:38 – 77:43 you’re still getting two-thirds of 77:39 – 77:45 Washington trying to want which is a a 77:43 – 77:47 conflict with Russia and a military 77:45 – 77:50 dominance of Eurasia so I think this is 77:47 – 77:53 literally a a semi abandoned or let’s 77:50 – 77:55 see how this goes more air cover for the 77:53 – 77:57 kind of things that we’re going on in 77:55 – 77:59 the Cold War cause really new Cold War I 77:57 – 78:01 think it’s meant I think it’s weird I we 77:59 – 78:03 talked about I honestly think he’s been 78:01 – 78:04 mind-controlled several times and I 78:03 – 78:07 don’t know if you’ve heard him on some 78:04 – 78:09 of the earlier interviews where he’s 78:07 – 78:11 they’re calling people from the car and 78:09 – 78:12 or he’s like meeting people at the front 78:11 – 78:14 of the Pentagon in the middle of the 78:12 – 78:18 night and my my good dude he would being 78:14 – 78:21 mind-controlled so I just in adds a mess 78:18 – 78:23 I just interviewed Kevin day who is a 78:21 – 78:27 super interesting guy 78:23 – 78:30 so Kevin day is the the top gun 78:27 – 78:33 intercept Orchestrator of all those 78:30 – 78:36 planes that are on the tic-tac video 78:33 – 78:39 that gets released mm-hmm I can’t go 78:36 – 78:43 through the whole interview but the guy 78:39 – 78:49 certainly seems legit 1,000% legit and 78:43 – 78:51 the the PTSD valet Davis effect which I 78:49 – 78:56 wasn’t familiar with do you know the 78:51 – 78:57 ballet Davis so valet Davis effect are 78:56 – 79:01 they went ahead 78:57 – 79:04 they Jacques valet and I forget dr. 79:01 – 79:07 Davis’s thing but they did a purity of 79:04 – 79:11 published analysis of the after effects 79:07 – 79:15 of contact related experiences and this 79:11 – 79:18 guy says all of them check every box 79:15 – 79:21 meanwhile he’s going to VA clinics and 79:18 – 79:24 they’re going oh complex PTSD and he’s 79:21 – 79:26 like yeah kind of but not really and 79:24 – 79:27 then he stumbles across eight years 79:26 – 79:28 later because it’s all happened a long 79:27 – 79:31 time ago 79:28 – 79:34 he stumbles across ballet Davis and he 79:31 – 79:38 goes bingo exactly and he traces it back 79:34 – 79:40 to when he actually went up on board 79:38 – 79:41 ship and actually took the glasses out 79:40 – 79:45 and 79:41 – 79:49 look at these visitors and had an 79:45 – 79:51 instantaneous experience meanwhile he’s 79:49 – 79:53 using this state-of-the-art 79:51 – 79:55 billion-dollar war machine 79:53 – 79:58 instrumentation to track these things 79:55 – 80:02 every different way possible 79:58 – 80:04 and he’s seeing it and the other boats 80:02 – 80:07 and planes are seeing it but then 80:04 – 80:09 another interesting aspect of it is 80:07 – 80:12 there’s again this screen memory thing 80:09 – 80:13 going on and he retells the story so 80:12 – 80:14 many times and I listened to it Gordon 80:13 – 80:17 and I finally asked him I said you know 80:14 – 80:18 I’ve talked to enough contact he’s let 80:17 – 80:21 me ask you this part about the 80:18 – 80:26 experience because you said that you 80:21 – 80:30 observed these 20 flying objects 80:26 – 80:34 basically trolling your ship for like 80:30 – 80:37 four days and they were flying at 22,000 80:34 – 80:40 feet at a hundred knots can’t do that 80:37 – 80:43 nothing can do that but you didn’t think 80:40 – 80:46 it was anything to worry about I said I 80:43 – 80:47 gotta tell you how many times I’ve heard 80:46 – 80:50 that story 80:47 – 80:54 from a contact II oh I saw my wife being 80:50 – 80:55 abducted but I decided I should go 80:54 – 80:57 upstairs and go back to bed because 80:55 – 81:00 there was nothing there to worry about 80:57 – 81:03 so he not only has this experience but 81:00 – 81:05 all the other people in on the other 81:03 – 81:08 boats that you know are having the same 81:05 – 81:09 experience oh those are nothing to worry 81:08 – 81:13 about 81:09 – 81:18 they’re just enough so I think there’s 81:13 – 81:22 something more than just wargames 81:18 – 81:24 advanced weapon or advanced technology 81:22 – 81:27 being hidden I think it’s a real contact 81:24 – 81:30 experience and I think they’re playing 81:27 – 81:35 around with true disclosure that is I 81:30 – 81:40 think there’s there is disclosure that 81:35 – 81:43 could be planet changing but there’s a 81:40 – 81:45 wrestling match of the usual kind in 81:43 – 81:47 terms of who’s going to control that 81:45 – 81:49 information and how and when they bring 81:47 – 81:53 it out because obviously that can 81:49 – 81:55 dictate how the script gets written from 81:53 – 81:57 there on 81:55 – 82:01 yeah I’m not sure I’d go the whole way 81:57 – 82:03 there it may well be of course I what 82:01 – 82:05 the closest I would get to that because 82:03 – 82:06 I still think this is when I say it’s an 82:05 – 82:08 op it doesn’t mean because they know 82:06 – 82:09 damn well that they don’t have some of 82:08 – 82:11 these toys that they’re talking about 82:09 – 82:13 right and I don’t know the origins of 82:11 – 82:14 those toys I don’t think you necessarily 82:13 – 82:16 need to have a crush spaceship to make 82:14 – 82:17 some of the kind of things that existed 82:16 – 82:19 when I’m supposed to but maybe that’s 82:17 – 82:22 where you got them from I do think there 82:19 – 82:26 is a kind of signaling game going on at 82:22 – 82:28 a higher geopolitical level and I think 82:26 – 82:30 Russia and China and obviously everyone 82:28 – 82:35 is playing alone this ain’t like they’re 82:30 – 82:38 trying to rattle sabers that we aren’t 82:35 – 82:39 supposed to think exists so if you look 82:38 – 82:40 at the recent Russia thing that may or 82:39 – 82:42 may not be true that they have like a 82:40 – 82:43 ray gun that can cause hallucinations 82:42 – 82:46 and comments and they’re putting on the 82:43 – 82:47 ship that may exist that may not but we 82:46 – 82:48 have this kind of stuff going on in the 82:47 – 82:51 West it may have that and what I’m 82:48 – 82:53 seeing is oh just mean just put it on a 82:51 – 82:55 nation basis obviously because I think 82:53 – 82:57 we’re potentially to geopolitically 82:55 – 82:59 sophisticated to to have it as a 82:57 – 83:02 national discussion or between nations 82:59 – 83:03 discussion but I do think in some of 83:02 – 83:05 this hullabaloo and front page and you 83:03 – 83:06 if for somebody to go in the front page 83:05 – 83:11 of the New York Times it’s get signed 83:06 – 83:13 off in Langley right so I do think 83:11 – 83:14 there’s what we’re seeing in a whole 83:13 – 83:16 bunch of different fora 83:14 – 83:19 at the moment on the geopolitical stage 83:16 – 83:22 people are rattling sabers that we 83:19 – 83:23 aren’t supposed to know exists and and 83:22 – 83:25 that would be as close as I get to I 83:23 – 83:26 think there’s a wrestle over disclosure 83:25 – 83:29 I think they’re like you go flying 83:26 – 83:34 saucers I got a vomit producing ray gun 83:29 – 83:36 perhaps hmm okay we might another topic 83:34 – 83:40 let’s see if we have time to get to five 83:36 – 83:42 or not but this is one first of all 83:40 – 83:45 here’s the guy you’re looking at the 83:42 – 83:48 first guy I know who totally called odd 83:45 – 83:51 patreon probably a year ago yeah a year 83:48 – 83:54 ago said yeah no it ain’t it ain’t gonna 83:51 – 83:56 happen it’s gonna turn the way that all 83:54 – 83:58 the other ones will turn as if we could 83:56 – 84:02 see those other ones turning censorship 83:58 – 84:03 hardcore softcore so tell us and you 84:02 – 84:06 know I pulled to make my little meme 84:03 – 84:07 there I think I’m not very interesting 84:06 – 84:11 head might just 84:07 – 84:14 last couple days from our buddy but you 84:11 – 84:16 know jack conte who’s the CEO of patreon 84:14 – 84:19 the news story that I ran across that I 84:16 – 84:22 thought you know for people like you and 84:19 – 84:25 I we can would love to spin it reading 84:22 – 84:28 between the lines but his big news flash 84:25 – 84:31 was hey Patriot the current patreon 84:28 – 84:35 model is not sustainable and what he was 84:31 – 84:37 signaling was I think hey motherfuckers 84:35 – 84:39 get in line you worried about censorship 84:37 – 84:42 I’m gonna I’m gonna change the whole 84:39 – 84:43 damn thing instead of getting 90% I’m 84:42 – 84:46 gonna tell you how much you can get and 84:43 – 84:48 it’s gonna be a lot less than 90% in the 84:46 – 84:50 future and more importantly what he’s 84:48 – 84:53 signaling is I’m running a business here 84:50 – 84:57 and when I run a business I listen to 84:53 – 84:60 the people who basically set the rules 84:57 – 85:03 for my business and the rules for my 84:60 – 85:06 business going forward are censorship 85:03 – 85:08 because that’s the game that is always 85:06 – 85:10 going to be at play it’s only a matter 85:08 – 85:14 of who’s doing the censoring what do you 85:10 – 85:16 think of patreon well like my background 85:14 – 85:19 I’ve been in startups and had them 85:16 – 85:23 acquired and from essentially my space 85:19 – 85:24 on a platform just gets worse 85:23 – 85:26 it happens with Facebook it happen for 85:24 – 85:30 Twitter and and from a commercial 85:26 – 85:32 perspective Etsy and PayPal both kick 85:30 – 85:34 off businesses that they decide or 85:32 – 85:35 unilaterally like an astrologer or 85:34 – 85:37 something that they declare doesn’t 85:35 – 85:40 exist so it’s like you’re always at risk 85:37 – 85:43 in our space whether it’s a podcast or 85:40 – 85:46 whether it’s magic or whatever you want 85:43 – 85:51 how many times do you have to get fucked 85:46 – 85:53 over by Silicon Valley’s eternal just 85:51 – 85:55 nature before you go oh no this time 85:53 – 85:56 it’ll be different this time would be 85:55 – 85:57 great and so I did have a bit of 85:56 – 86:00 experience in like there’s no way this 85:57 – 86:03 ends well because none of them have as 86:00 – 86:05 for the censorship component on a macro 86:03 – 86:07 basis I actually in a funny way I think 86:05 – 86:09 it’s good news 86:07 – 86:13 firstly it is surprising to me that 86:09 – 86:16 people didn’t realize what platforms 86:13 – 86:19 like Google like YouTube and whatever 86:16 – 86:21 actually were and I’ve kind of confused 86:19 – 86:23 it is some sort of public free 86:21 – 86:25 expression when it is a it’s a corporate 86:23 – 86:29 product at back set back ends into DARPA 86:25 – 86:31 right so hold on I mean I think we have 86:29 – 86:34 to make a distinction there because I’m 86:31 – 86:37 with you when you say back into back 86:34 – 86:40 ends into DARPA but in another respect 86:37 – 86:44 it is the public square it is the Fourth 86:40 – 86:47 Estate it is the of our time it is and 86:44 – 86:49 that play could have been made and I 86:47 – 86:51 think that you know that those questions 86:49 – 86:54 will be answered in the courts years 86:51 – 86:57 from now but I look at it they’re surely 86:54 – 87:00 going to lose because you know jack 86:57 – 87:04 conte can’t on one hand say i banned 87:00 – 87:07 this right-wing woman because she was 87:04 – 87:09 endangering our group got together and 87:07 – 87:12 decided i mean as soon as you start 87:09 – 87:14 policing your content in that way then 87:12 – 87:15 you are in the business of 87:14 – 87:17 editorializing and you’re putting 87:15 – 87:19 yourself in a little sure a whole 87:17 – 87:21 different thing so and the whole thing 87:19 – 87:24 with like with alex jones we also have 87:21 – 87:25 up there like alex jones don’t like alex 87:24 – 87:28 jones but i think he is kind of exposed 87:25 – 87:31 himself lately with the trump epstein 87:28 – 87:32 thing which he’s gone a gone way over 87:31 – 87:36 clearly there’s a connection there and 87:32 – 87:39 for him to to allow his buddy Roger 87:36 – 87:41 stone to get on there and say oh you’re 87:39 – 87:44 like a classic digression but Roger 87:41 – 87:47 stone to to get on there and say the 87:44 – 87:50 only time Trump ever saw Epstein is when 87:47 – 87:52 his chauffeur drove him past his house 87:50 – 87:55 and he said oh look he must be heavy 87:52 – 87:57 he must be having a birthday party for 87:55 – 87:59 some young girls look at all the young 87:57 – 88:01 girls at that pool and then he realized 87:59 – 88:04 it was something more so he just drove 88:01 – 88:07 on by I mean this it has gone so over 88:04 – 88:09 the top with Alex that I don’t know that 88:07 – 88:12 we can get him back to where he was 88:09 – 88:15 where he was really I think that true 88:12 – 88:18 truther and was dishing out some truth 88:15 – 88:23 but I digress again because the point is 88:18 – 88:25 you cannot ban someone on every fucking 88:23 – 88:28 platform in a coordinated way on the 88:25 – 88:31 same day and have that not 88:28 – 88:34 that’s clearly collusion and it’s 88:31 – 88:36 clearly obstruction of obstruction of 88:34 – 88:39 trade and he will win in the courts but 88:36 – 88:42 it’s gonna come five or seven years from 88:39 – 88:45 now when no one cares but it isn’t as 88:42 – 88:46 simple as oh those are platforms and 88:45 – 88:48 they can do whatever they want I mean 88:46 – 88:52 that’s something that is gonna have to 88:48 – 88:55 be here well I guess I’m just feeling it 88:52 – 88:57 tactically because my I’ve worked with 88:55 – 88:58 these companies that was my career 88:57 – 89:01 before I did this and like there’s no 88:58 – 89:02 way I would have there’s no way I would 89:01 – 89:04 setup what it is they do in a way that 89:02 – 89:07 is reliant on any of them because again 89:04 – 89:08 it’s Fox and the Scorpion I know how 89:07 – 89:11 they behave and they know how they end 89:08 – 89:13 up so yes there’s absolutely a case and 89:11 – 89:16 here’s the bit that I was kind of I got 89:13 – 89:17 halfway through which is I actually see 89:16 – 89:19 this as good news and I don’t mean the 89:17 – 89:20 banning of people and so and every time 89:19 – 89:22 they do this and you’re noticing and 89:20 – 89:24 especially with Twitter at the moment 89:22 – 89:25 and the whole platform gets worst and 89:24 – 89:28 people don’t want to be there anymore 89:25 – 89:30 every time they do this they make the 89:28 – 89:33 thing that they’re trying to make safe 89:30 – 89:36 or better worse and it just seems like 89:33 – 89:38 everyone’s kind of working that out at 89:36 – 89:39 either looking for a new thing or 89:38 – 89:44 realizing that we do need to pivot 89:39 – 89:45 towards a a more decentralized to 89:44 – 89:47 connect in an analogue way rather than 89:45 – 89:50 everyone hanging out on a platform I 89:47 – 89:52 actually see it as a kind of good news 89:50 – 89:55 that there and it kind of shows him in 89:52 – 89:57 many respects how scared they are or 89:55 – 89:58 aware they are that the kind of 89:57 – 90:01 overarching propaganda is failing 89:58 – 90:04 because propaganda always kind of fails 90:01 – 90:06 before a regime change and you sort of 90:04 – 90:09 get the sense that we’ve got a few years 90:06 – 90:11 left to run if these idiots making it so 90:09 – 90:13 much more awful because they’ve got 90:11 – 90:18 their marching orders from whoever like 90:13 – 90:20 you know wherever they come from they 90:18 – 90:23 just it’s gonna be crap but I actually 90:20 – 90:26 kind of see it as a it’s going to be 90:23 – 90:27 more slightly more difficult and this is 90:26 – 90:31 just how the world works to be on the 90:27 – 90:33 Internet in a satisfactory way but in 90:31 – 90:35 the medium term maybe that’s good like 90:33 – 90:38 maybe we will end up with ways that 90:35 – 90:40 don’t rely wholly on everyone being on a 90:38 – 90:43 platform that is they go DARPA funded 90:40 – 90:47 valence thing right I don’t know I’ve 90:43 – 90:49 been beaten up a bit more yeah no I 90:47 – 90:52 spot-on I really like where you’re going 90:49 – 90:55 and I think again that is being played 90:52 – 90:57 out as we speak because the third meme I 90:55 – 91:00 have up there is you know Joe Rogan’s 90:57 – 91:04 recent interview with Jack Dorsey at 91:00 – 91:08 Twitter and the news out of that is you 91:04 – 91:12 know 10,000 thumbs down on YouTube 91:08 – 91:14 because of Joe Rogan who if anyone who 91:12 – 91:17 doesn’t understand him I don’t want to 91:14 – 91:21 say he’s a show cuz he’s not but I mean 91:17 – 91:24 he’s just a part of that megaphone now 91:21 – 91:27 you know in some way that we don’t 91:24 – 91:30 totally understand and whether he’s 91:27 – 91:32 co-opted or just following the cheese 91:30 – 91:35 that’s laid down through the maze or who 91:32 – 91:35 cares or you know but you know there he 91:35 – 91:38 is 91:35 – 91:41 tossing softball questions to Jack 91:38 – 91:43 Dorsey but to your point it’s thumbs 91:41 – 91:46 down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down 91:43 – 91:48 to where you know he had to apologize to 91:46 – 91:52 his listeners yeah right I’ll do it 91:48 – 91:54 better next time yeah right and or 91:52 – 91:56 YouTube should get rid of that thumbs 91:54 – 91:60 down thing anyway why don’t we just have 91:56 – 92:02 likes we don’t need this likes but to 91:60 – 92:05 your point I think those are the throws 92:02 – 92:08 of a dying fish you know what I mean 92:05 – 92:10 absolutely Netflix is doing it as well I 92:08 – 92:14 mean they actually got rid of the rating 92:10 – 92:17 system because Amy Schumer yeah when her 92:14 – 92:19 okay yeah when her show came out 92:17 – 92:22 whatever it was 18 months ago and it was 92:19 – 92:23 terrible because they had she’d made 92:22 – 92:27 such a big fuss about being paid the 92:23 – 92:29 same amount as forget who and everyone 92:27 – 92:31 found it awful that they did what 92:29 – 92:34 YouTube may well do which is that I will 92:31 – 92:36 remove the negative bit guys this is 92:34 – 92:38 this is not how you it’s almost you 92:36 – 92:39 could always make a medical metaphor but 92:38 – 92:41 you were treating the symptoms here and 92:39 – 92:43 and I don’t think they have the 92:41 – 92:45 awareness to do anything else I don’t 92:43 – 92:47 really watch Alex Jones so I’m not sure 92:45 – 92:51 what he’s up to or any 92:47 – 92:54 I enjoy Alex Jones immensely I have to 92:51 – 92:57 say because he’s an entertainer he is 92:54 – 93:01 directly at this point especially he’s 92:57 – 93:04 completely crossed over the line too 93:01 – 93:06 we really can’t take him anything other 93:04 – 93:09 than and then entertainment and for any 93:06 – 93:13 Oh everything after his apology to James 93:09 – 93:15 elephant is on it was it’s all is 93:13 – 93:17 revealed you know why do we have to 93:15 – 93:19 apologize did James elephant this for 93:17 – 93:22 pizza gate why did we have to do that 93:19 – 93:24 well clearly to me there’s some kind of 93:22 – 93:26 connection with his you know Trump has 93:24 – 93:28 taken that off the table that will not 93:26 – 93:30 be pursued there will not be any 93:28 – 93:32 draining of the swamp and I think the 93:30 – 93:34 orders came down there and that’s the 93:32 – 93:37 thread that I follow with Alex Jones 93:34 – 93:39 that clarifies where that the whole 93:37 – 93:41 thing is gone but uh enough on him I had 93:39 – 93:43 one more topic labs and see if we could 93:41 – 93:46 if we could get there but in a lot of 93:43 – 93:49 ways I think we already have when we 93:46 – 93:52 talked about counterfeited spirituality 93:49 – 93:56 that seems to be strictly looking at 93:52 – 93:59 empirical data the data from the alien 93:56 – 94:01 contact experience mainly the data 93:59 – 94:03 that’s been collected by bond buddy ray 94:01 – 94:05 Hernandez in the free organization 94:03 – 94:08 they’re the only ones who did a real 94:05 – 94:12 scientific study of it including Leo 94:08 – 94:14 sprinkle and other PhD level Harvard PhD 94:12 – 94:15 level people who know how to collect 94:14 – 94:18 that kind of data for whatever it’s 94:15 – 94:20 worth survey empirical data but those 94:18 – 94:22 experiences line up almost perfectly 94:20 – 94:25 with the near-death experience so sure 94:22 – 94:27 what do you do with that data one way to 94:25 – 94:30 interpret that is that these are truly 94:27 – 94:32 spiritual experiences and I’m one person 94:30 – 94:37 who’s pounding the drum over there kind 94:32 – 94:38 of with your demonic trickster kind of 94:37 – 94:42 sensibility that you’re expressing going 94:38 – 94:45 really are we sure it could the 94:42 – 94:47 technology again loosely using the term 94:45 – 94:50 technology be so developed that they can 94:47 – 94:51 counterfeit the spiritual experience and 94:50 – 94:53 I wonder if you have any thoughts 94:51 – 94:56 absolutely like when and I love rayon 94:53 – 94:58 and stuff as well this you know what I’m 94:56 – 94:60 gonna say like so if near-death 94:58 – 95:06 experiences or 94:60 – 95:08 contact and UFO cases have have a lot of 95:06 – 95:10 structural similarities and had 95:08 – 95:12 after-effects in people’s lives yeah 95:10 – 95:14 this is that kind of naive Western idea 95:12 – 95:17 of well then it you know well my my 95:14 – 95:19 granny’s in heaven and and I spoke to an 95:17 – 95:20 alien so this must be good that’s really 95:19 – 95:21 really not even you know what I’m gonna 95:20 – 95:24 say it looks like the spirit world to me 95:21 – 95:26 the spirit world is ambivalent and and 95:24 – 95:29 we just that’s one of the things perhaps 95:26 – 95:31 we could learn by doing comparison a 95:29 – 95:33 little bit better so that we don’t have 95:31 – 95:35 this binary of is it aliens or is it 95:33 – 95:37 ghosts and are they good or are they bad 95:35 – 95:39 there are a better way 95:37 – 95:41 literally objectively better ways of 95:39 – 95:43 coming at this material and and 95:41 – 95:45 understanding that it has some 95:43 – 95:47 ambivalence or it might have one or more 95:45 – 95:49 agendas like that’s that’s how we’ve 95:47 – 95:51 always interacted with as a species 95:49 – 95:53 that’s how we’ve always interacted so 95:51 – 95:55 you have a hundred percent with you and 95:53 – 95:57 that I love race stuff I do think on the 95:55 – 96:01 edges of that you do get people who are 95:57 – 96:04 who are more optimistic about the 96:01 – 96:06 motives for extra dimensional contact 96:04 – 96:09 and I think we should be maybe these are 96:06 – 96:11 business backward Alex you know maybe 96:09 – 96:14 this is something like that but I’m 96:11 – 96:17 generally I want to know why someone is 96:14 – 96:22 nice yeah I want to know why someone is 96:17 – 96:26 being nice yes that that is a business 96:22 – 96:29 value that I can definitely tune into 96:26 – 96:31 you know it’s it’s been awesome we’ve 96:29 – 96:33 spent you an hour and 45 minutes it’s 96:31 – 96:36 flown by Gordon tell folks 96:33 – 96:38 what’s going on with Rhian soup and 96:36 – 96:40 where the hell is the book buddy you 96:38 – 96:43 know yeah gotta be one or two of them 96:40 – 96:46 out there what’s what’s the delay um the 96:43 – 96:47 delay is I’m you know I have about three 96:46 – 96:48 full-time jobs at the moment because 96:47 – 96:50 they have a brand new farm which is a 96:48 – 96:51 full-time job and I have a Premium 96:50 – 96:53 Membership because they don’t use 96:51 – 96:54 patreon for people who like this kind of 96:53 – 96:58 stuff we do quarterly courses the next 96:54 – 97:00 one is on ancestors and contact with the 96:58 – 97:03 dead and so you can do that Edwin suit 97:00 – 97:06 obviously the majority of it is free the 97:03 – 97:07 show the blog and the Facebook page if 97:06 – 97:09 somebody wants to take a course just a 97:07 – 97:12 kind of detail there someone wants to 97:09 – 97:12 take a course how do they pay for it are 97:12 – 97:13 you 97:12 – 97:16 into patreon if they want to do that I 97:13 – 97:17 don’t a picture and you’re like you just 97:16 – 97:19 click on the members section of the 97:17 – 97:22 website and join up it’s the same idea 97:19 – 97:23 like yeah there’s a monthly fee and well 97:22 – 97:25 there’s a monthly membership but it’s 97:23 – 97:27 not just the one course we don’t sell 97:25 – 97:29 them differently we do like the live 97:27 – 97:31 video and people go in holidays together 97:29 – 97:34 and oh all kinds of weird it’s it’s it’s 97:31 – 97:37 a really fun and missing group lunatics 97:34 – 97:41 like me but if you’re meant together 97:37 – 97:43 right you guys do oh yeah and I in fact 97:41 – 97:45 credit the fact that this sixty thousand 97:43 – 97:48 hectare bushfire got 800 meters from the 97:45 – 97:51 farm and no further to the repeated kind 97:48 – 97:53 of intention exercises and and nakshatra 97:51 – 97:55 mantras we did on a big simultaneous 97:53 – 97:58 group basis and it’s it’s been an 97:55 – 98:01 incredible last few weeks and if that 97:58 – 98:04 kind of if you like if you like 98:01 – 98:08 exploring sceptical style content in a 98:04 – 98:10 way that is is embodied I guess that 98:08 – 98:15 might be for you it might not listen to 98:10 – 98:17 the show anyway who are the I have not 98:15 – 98:20 popped over there I’m a member but I 98:17 – 98:22 just haven’t made the leap and I don’t 98:20 – 98:25 know exactly why because I want to poke 98:22 – 98:29 in there I love that idea of embodying 98:25 – 98:32 it in finding like-minded folks who’s 98:29 – 98:34 coming over there give me an idea of the 98:32 – 98:37 of the profile I’m sure it’s a wide 98:34 – 98:39 variety of folks but yeah there’s 98:37 – 98:41 there’s a lot of sort of background and 98:39 – 98:43 interest overlaps magic being the 98:41 – 98:45 principle when is a magic we operate 98:43 – 98:46 people by and large and the course is it 98:45 – 98:47 very specifically because they vote on 98:46 – 98:50 them they’re very specifically about 98:47 – 98:53 magic but we’ll end up doing other ones 98:50 – 98:55 eventually and so with this fascinating 98:53 – 98:58 overlaps with people without their 98:55 – 99:01 permaculture background or philosophy 98:58 – 99:04 the majority of them are in the u.s. 99:01 – 99:07 yeah it’s there they’re amazing and 99:04 – 99:08 their lives they get up to and this is 99:07 – 99:09 one of the things that’s from about our 99:08 – 99:11 little world you meet the most 99:09 – 99:14 remarkable people 99:11 – 99:15 awesome well I really hope people check 99:14 – 99:17 that out and they’re gonna find me over 99:15 – 99:19 there more because I really want to do 99:17 – 99:21 that I think what you’re creating and 99:19 – 99:23 the community that you’re creating is 99:21 – 99:24 super important and talk about embodying 99:23 – 99:26 it in 99:24 – 99:28 here’s a guy that a couple years ago was 99:26 – 99:31 talking I remember when we were talking 99:28 – 99:34 we’re sitting out on the patio near my 99:31 – 99:38 house and you were visualizing what you 99:34 – 99:40 did manifest I mean exactly 99:38 – 99:42 and it was really kind of remarkable to 99:40 – 99:45 see you go through that process so you 99:42 – 99:47 have a nice little apple farm and 99:45 – 99:49 whatever else you’re farming there on 99:47 – 99:53 the edge of the world over looking at 99:49 – 99:55 arctica and you’ve tell people a little 99:53 – 99:57 bit about that project that you’ve that 99:55 – 99:59 you’ve undertaken there because I know a 99:57 – 100:01 lot of people really find that it’s kind 99:59 – 100:06 of the total reframe of the prepper 100:01 – 100:09 thing into a positive lifestyle where I 100:06 – 100:13 want to be regardless of how good or bad 100:09 – 100:15 things get no exactly so I mean I’m a 100:13 – 100:17 permaculture designer and events officer 100:15 – 100:19 for permaculture tasmania we’ve only 100:17 – 100:21 just got here so it’d only been here 100:19 – 100:23 twelve months so it still just looks 100:21 – 100:25 like over grace sheet paddock with a few 100:23 – 100:28 things that we’ve planted right but that 100:25 – 100:32 is the general idea to kind of live you 100:28 – 100:36 know in a way that is experimental in 100:32 – 100:38 the sense of there are permaculture this 100:36 – 100:41 is a whole separate show right it is in 100:38 – 100:43 a really interesting place in terms of 100:41 – 100:45 what it does next and I’m very 100:43 – 100:46 interested in that overlap I know dr. 100:45 – 100:48 hunter is as well and contributing to 100:46 – 100:50 his latest book in that kind of sense so 100:48 – 100:53 yeah we live on five acres in in 100:50 – 100:55 southern Tasmania and beginning a sort 100:53 – 100:55 of permaculture journey which will 100:55 – 100:57 include 100:55 – 100:59 you know on-farm produce and 100:57 – 101:01 accommodation and and all the other 100:59 – 101:02 things and it’s amazing yeah when it’s 101:01 – 101:05 not on fire it’s an amazing place to be 101:02 – 101:08 awesome well it’s been just great 101:05 – 101:09 reconnecting with your own skeptic oh I 101:08 – 101:12 know so many people will appreciate this 101:09 – 101:14 interview Gordon do take care or let’s 101:12 – 101:16 stay in touch and thanks again for 101:14 – 101:18 joining me absolutely thank you for 101:16 – 101:18 having me [box]