Gordon White, Is Magic Outdated Tech? |405|

Gordon White of Rune Soup returns to talk Magic, ET and neo-liberal social engineering?

photo by: Skeptiko

I’m not much of a sci-fi fan.

David (from the movie Prometheus): Am I interrupting, I thought you might be running low?

But maybe I should be more of one.

Charlie Holloway: Pour yourself a glass pal.

David: Thank you, but I’m afraid it would be wasted on me.

Charlie Holloway: You think we wasted our time coming here, don’t you?

That’s a clip from Ridley Scott’s Prometheus.

David: Your question depends on the understanding of what you hope to achieve by coming here.

Charlie Holloway: What we hoped to achieve was to meet our makers, to get answers. Why they even made us in the first place.

And darn, if it doesn’t get right to the heart of the issue.

David: Why do you think your people made me?

Charlie Holloway: We made you because we could.

David: Can you imagine how disappointing it would be for you to hear the same thing from your creator?

Why does it seem like we are compelled to try and “create better than the creator Gods,” as my friend Miguel Conner says. And why do I get so pissed off when I learn that that’s exactly what we’ve been doing?

Alex Tsakiris: They weren’t doing this from a shamanic or a magic perspective, they were doing it, as near as we can tell, “Let’s figure out how the fucking aliens do it and do it the same way. Let’s see if we can break people open in order so that we might perfect this technology.” That’s what intrigues me Gordon, what if there really is a technology component to this? And in that respect, maybe we would look at the shamanic and the magic traditions that you’re talking about in a different perspective.

Gordon White: I would just say, before we talk about the technology thing, if we are comparing the projects there of trying to weaponize these capacities of these children, that is kind of trying to break into the spirit world, and the word shaman is culturally bound, we all know that, we know what we’re talking about.

What you will find in cultures that has this as a function within it, is that the spirits choose them. So, you don’t torture all of the children in a tribe, you find the ones that the spirits have picked and go, “Unfortunately for you my little son or daughter, you’re not going to have a very good life. You get to be the shaman.”

So, as you might have figured out by now, today’s guest is Gordon White of Rune Soup. Someone I feel like I can open up to about all of my deepest, darkest extended consciousness fears and that’s what we do in this interview, along with me doing my usual poking and prodding, but who better to do that with than folks that you genuinely like and respect.

Stick around for my interview with Gordon White.

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Read Excerpts

Alex Tsakiris: Why don’t you like Ancient Aliens?

Gordon White: It’s not that I don’t like it. When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So, bouncing up and down the historical record, looking for buildings that are impressive and saying, “Aliens must have done that,” whether it’s India in the 1400s or whether it’s Gobekli Tepe or whether it’s the Maya or what have you, is insufficiently nuanced to take the discussion or the analysis or the interpretation to that next level.

I have a background in multi-channel television, so I’m ex-Discovery Channel and one of the problems with multi-channel from a commercial perspective, is they aim for evergreen programs. So, they aim to build a program that is the same every time and is popular and when I was at Discovery Channel it was Deadliest Catch, because it doesn’t change. Every season, it’s a bunch of guys on a boat with big waves and people loved it.

The trouble with a long-running program like Ancient Aliens, is exactly that. The majority of the money that a multi-channel broadcaster makes is in long-running programs that they can sell to other networks and so on, right?

So Ancient Aliens is a victim of its own success, which is, it can’t ever change because it’s hit a formula that allows people to watch it and unfortunately that is where you get into variable levels of quality.

Yes, Dr. Brandenburg’s amazing. I would suggest instead that people maybe read his book and like some pure John, because I have friends who have either been on it or turned down being on it, or have been on it and going, “I regret that, I’m not going to do that again,” and it’s largely because you sort of sit in front of a blue screen and they’ll arrange the questions, so you say a thing and get a sound bite that then they’ll kind of sequence.

So, it’s an ambitious and obviously it’s a very fascinating and valid area to cover. It’s just whether a long-running multi-channel program can deliver sufficient quality over time, and I don’t think it can, is why?

Alex Tsakiris: Okay, I want to move on because I have so many other things I want to talk to you about, but I will not move on, I will persist.

One thing that I guess I’d push back on is your first point. I think the nail that they’re pounding on is the correct nail and given the mountain that they’re they’re trying to climb, the predominant view that they’re up against, throughout academia, and it’s so pervasive, that this couldn’t possibly be true and especially concerning how long running the show is. Yes, that we do need an alternative explanation for why the pyramids look the same as the pyramids over in Central America and the larger question, is why do people look up to the sky, why is there that instinct? Why do the Dogon tell us that, hey, they just tell you straight up, “Yeah, we don’t have any contact with the outside world because the Sirians came down however many, hundreds, thousands of years ago and told us they were from the Star people”?

I mean, to me it’s almost like they have to pound on the same nail because it does seem to be the best nail at the moment. It’s the Occam’s Razor kind of thing. It’s the simplest most parsimonious answer to the question of what was the inspiration for these ancient cultures to look up and to be fascinated with the stars and star gods and all the rest of that? So, I’d kind of say that.

And I’d also defend the show in that Deadliest Catch, yes, for a while, but if you look at what the show has done recently in the last couple of years, I got to take my hat off to them. I think they’ve done a fantastic job. Their show on AI and on advanced technologies, I thought was fantastic. I think their shows where our buddy there has gone out on the road, what’s his name, [unclear 00:17:06] or?  

Gordon White: George.

Alex Tsakiris: George, yeah, my Greek compadre there. I think it’s very, very great. You’re getting them out there on the road talking to people. It’s no longer the blue screen. He’s down, feet on the ground, kind of doing stuff.

We never would have imagined, I don’t think, that we would have this kind of mainstreaming of these ideas. So, I’m a big cheerleader, go, go, go, you know?

Gordon White: Well, fair enough.

Alex Tsakiris: Okay.

Gordon White: I’m not. I did write a whole book about it. I don’t think it’s the best explanation.

Alex Tsakiris: We shall return to that, because best explanation… Well, let’s stop right there. What is a better explanation today, given the data we have? And you can’t default to Jacques Vallée, because that’s not really an explanation, it’s just a call to broaden the interpretation possibilities.

Gordon White: When you talk about the similarity between pyramids, if you include Gunung Padang in that, which is in the book and I think you should, you’re dealing with a pyramid building project that happened multiple times, between 15 and 20 thousand years.

So, if they’re the inspiration for it, how many times did they come down and where are they?

There has to be a better understanding of what human interaction with off-planet is, that allows for these kinds of ideas to recur over time, because they absolutely do, and it doesn’t necessarily require physical Sirians landing in West Africa and talking to the Dogon, when we have no evidence of that but we do absolutely have evidence for telepathy and distance, like nonverbal communication, when we do these kinds of things.

So, the Sirians don’t actually need to get here to tell us this stuff and what if it’s the actual stars themselves? Like this is coming back to Dr. Sheldrake, right? Like the implications which neither of us like this, but it’s a great way of describing it. The implications of panpsychism is that the sun has some form of consciousness.

Now neither of us are panpsychists for very good reasons, but that’s what I mean. Like rather than having something for which we have no evidence, we do have evidence for these [psy capacities 00:19:49] and it seems like that’s a better place to start with. That was sort of the whole point of the book, rather than having aliens keep showing up.

Alex Tsakiris: I agree. This is the cool thing about talking with you and having this kind of exchange, because I feel like we can immediately go to the kind of, what I always call, the level 3 kind of thing, beyond the, “Oh this can’t possibly be true,” beyond the beat back at the Skeptics, beyond the, “Oh, yes. Tell me, please tell me the answer,” and just hash out the real disagreements, and not disagreements, but possibilities, because that’s really what we’re talking about.

I interviewed a guy just recently, it was a fantastic interview, because I love when these interviews go in totally different directions than I anticipate.

So, the guy’s name is Steve Briggs, and I know him through my friend Rick Archer at Buddha at the Gas Pump, because they both, for 20 years, were following around Maharishi and doing whatever he said in the TM movement. For 20 years this guy was training some of the top corporate leaders in India on transcendental meditation and on meditation techniques. He’s highly advanced and he’s meditating for seven, eight hours a day, except when he goes on retreats, and then he’s meditating for 20 hours a day for long periods of time.

He’s traveling through India and he’s meeting these unbelievable sages and mystics and he meets one, he describes him as this just beautiful, beautiful man, like his features are beautiful, but he also has this glow about him and he goes to talk to this guy and the guy says, “Yeah, I’m like a 105 thousand years old,” or whatever the hell these crazy Indian stories are. But then, he gives them some really practical advice. He says, “Look, here’s what you can do to improve your meditation practice and you’ve already been meditating for 20 years, but you’re so pretty far along, but you can just do these simple things.”

And the next thing he does, like what you were saying, he says, “And here is how you can astral travel and astral travel better, and here’s how you can gather your internal energies and travel.”

So, he travels, and he travels to Siria, to the Sirius Star System.

So, this is the interview, right? So, I’m interviewing this guy, and first, let me say that this guy is kind of like a very conventional guy in a lot of ways; MBA, tennis, played tennis at a national level in college for a scholarship. That’s when he had his first spiritual psychic experience, was on the tennis court when, it’s kind of the Michael Jordan effect, everything slows down and I can see the tennis ball, boom, boom, boom. He’s like 14 years old when this happens, and he wins the match and he’s like nationally ranked and all this stuff.

So again, they are all of these elements to the story that tie us to a reality that we kind of all accept and now he’s going to tell you he travels to the Sirius Star System. And now the story gets even wilder because he said they have all these different planets in the all these different technologies, and his explanation, just to throw this on the table, for the starships, for the UFOs is, they’re like, “Why not? Yeah, we can and do show up psychically. It’s fun. We show up in starships sometimes too, and that’s the way we do it, and why wouldn’t we do it and we like interacting?” The whole thing.

So, it’s trippy but it’s like, in another way, I’ve thought about that many times since it’s like, that’s a very fucking reasonable explanation as well.

Gordon White: I’m here for it. I Love it. I love it. I’m here for it. I think that’s great. That’s not that far from what I kind of think is going on. Absolutely.

Alex Tsakiris: Which is you’re right, you’re right that is not contradictory to what you’re saying. It’s again, taking the interpretation part of the formula and saying, you know, we’re talking about interpretation, well, we could really kind of wad that up into a ball and throw it into a wastebasket too, because all bets are off, we can interpret it just about every way you could imagine.

Gordon White: Yeah, and this guy, I haven’t listened to that show, as you can see, I’ve been out and about fleeing bushfires. But what he described isn’t that far from… and I don’t just mean in starships, about what I actually think is going on, like in the universe. That level of purpose, of interaction is like, “Why the fuck not?” That relationality, I think is what’s going on. I think that’s what’s going on, spirits aliens, whatever you want to call it.  

—-

My father grew up in New Guinea and my aunt is actually New Guinean, so he kind of has an understanding, a good understanding of where different things from a “western” culture can be useful and helpful in a non-western sense.

So, growing up we would go to the islands every year because he missed it and we’d get to Sydney and he go into like a tourist tat store and he’d buy a whole bunch of $5, like, I heart Australian t-shirts and all of that kind of thing. He’d take them, and he’d take hats, and he’d take thongs and we’d go and visit different outlying communities and whatever, and not in like a weird Christian way. We were there holidaying, let’s be clear, we were not saving anyone, but he knew that we’re in their lives and we bring things and they fucking loved them.

We would come back a couple of years later and they’re still wearing the shirts because they don’t have them, they’re not in Sydney, they don’t have this stuff.

This has been, from a policy perspective, something that… And Brazil worked out, not now, they’re in quite a bad way politically, but a few decades ago, trying to navigate, at what arm’s length, do you “hold” native Brazilians living in the Amazon? How racist is it to keep them in a pristine state where they’re all there without shoes and in loincloths in an area riddled with deadly snakes, saying, “God, give me some shoes, some shoes would be great right now”?

And I think that is, when we when we talk about technology share and how, I don’t even like the word better, but like how ideas that have some utility across culture move. The iPhone is a good example, but so is meditation, so is the use of ayahuasca for contacting spirits. These are things, they are…

Alex Tsakiris: Totally but let me let me leap frog this a little bit, because where I’m really going, and I can’t usually jump that far ahead with folks is, I’m worried about, interested in, concerned with ET and ET’s ability to marshal technology in this, forgive the term, extended consciousness realm, but I’ve got to keep using it because people know what it means is opposed to UFOs versus aerial phenomena or whatever they want to call it.

So, when we hear what ET is doing, in terms of screen memory, in terms of telepathic communication, in terms of long-term surveillance and potentially counterfeited spiritual experiences, where people come back and say, “Oh I’ve had this incredible spiritual awakening, I’ve had this healing,” and another person comes back and goes, “Really? All I did was get fucked by a reptilian.” It’s like, where is the spiritual transformative…? I mean, that can be, I guess.

So, when I look at that, that makes me look at the shamanic noble savage kind of thing, halo that we can do, that isn’t, like you said, arm’s length kind of thing, might not be the right approach either.

So, I just wonder how we’re supposed to figure that shit out, and I’m not worried about being racist and I’m not worried about being fair. I’m just worrying about trying to understand it and not favoring one over another, in a way that is going to cloud my ability to interpret what might really be going on, and how much of this magic thing might be linked to a technology that we don’t fully understand and when we do understand it you will have an app to talk to the Sirians.

Gordon White: There are so many things there that I think we actually need to pivot more to their… Let me start here instead, because I was just up at a conference speaking about UFOs and contactees and talking to the Pleiadians and all of that really kind of like boomer stuff and I gave a presentation called Weather for the Aliens.

Alex Tsakiris: The presentation was what?

Gordon White: Called Weather for the Aliens and it’s a panspermia talk, right?

Alex Tsakiris: Right.

Gordon White: But I’ll tell you, having spoken to a number of demons, they will flat out say, “Yeah we’re trolling people.” They think they’re talking to the galactic federation, that’s us motherfucker.

Now, the argument then is in fact for more magic not less, because where’s your fucking iPhone is the opposite when you go into cultures that never lost this wary extradimensional diplomacy component. The majority of shamanic practice isn’t happy healing stuff, it is keeping bad shit away from the fucking village. The techniques for navigating the fact that the spirit world is sometimes deceptive, but it is certainly never presented as factual. Like, what you see is never what you get in the spirit world and you have cultures that have millennia of experience of navigating that and we have an iPhone.

So, I would argue that in fact, we need more of it rather than less and the notion that any kind of contact experience is automatically a good one, like, “Oh, look at me, I’ve had a spiritual experience,” is a very western, post-Christian idea, visited by an angel or whatever. That kind of contact is quite neoplatonic, the idea that, “Oh look, something happened to me, I interacted with a star brother.”

You won’t find that level of optimism, you will find a wariness and a hard one-cynicism in cultures that just know better from more experience of the spirit world and they’re like, “It might be that, it might be something else.” Magic is frankly better at… and I can even shrink that down to western magic, is better at navigating the reality that this is a deceptive and enigmatic process because it has those fail-safes built into it.

Within animistic cultures, when you say, “Once we learn fully what magic is about,” you never will. You kind of have an open cosmology that is hyper pragmatic because you admit and understand that you will never fully know what’s going on, but you nevertheless have to be in the world and interact. So like, what techniques, what ways of being in the world kind of work in this sort of getting along together way?

Alex Tsakiris: That’s the same problem. You will acknowledge that that is wrought with the same problems that you’re trying to, kind of, get past or overcome, right?

Gordon White: No, I would disagree, because you want animism as an ontology, I’m looking for an epistemology.

So, I know that the rise of magic has somewhat irritated you over the last year and I’m sorry to bring the bad news that it still has much further to run than Dean Radin.

But what I’m looking for is an epistemology and you’re worried that it will replace your ontology.

Alex Tsakiris: Not totally. I fully agree with the point about more is better in this case. So, a more expansive understanding of those modalities for interacting with. But we’re always going to be struggling with words in this discussion, this kind of inside baseball level 3 discussion because as soon as we start talking about spirits, we don’t know what the fuck a spirit is, no more than we know what consciousness is. It’s all part of the same blob that were pulling apart.

I would try and circle this back to my point because I’m really interested in getting your insight on this because it’s fantastic.

Did you listen to our friend Greg Carlwood’s excellent interview with Whitley Strieber?

Gordon White: If it was in the last month or so because I’ve been traveling and then fleeing bushfires, I’m behind in everything I’m afraid. So, I haven’t.

Alex Tsakiris: I don’t know how far back it was, but it was quite extraordinary and it was extraordinary particularly at this one moment when Whitley is talking about being, I don’t want to say abducted because he wasn’t, he was voluntarily  admitted by his parents in this special youth program at an air force base in San Antonio, where these kids were subjected to, just a horrible kind of Skinner cage.

You walk in to the facility and these kids… just to digress slightly, Strieber says, “I can hardly believe that this happened except I found two other boys who were with me and one boy who wasn’t, because his parents, when they came and told them about the special program for gifted children in the Skinner box as in BF Skinner said, “Get the hell away from my house and don’t come back.” But his parents weren’t so inclined, or his parents were part of it or whatever.

So, he was dressed up in his Sunday Best every week in order to go to this camp. And when he first goes in, on the air force base, there are these kids locked in these little cages and they said, “That’s what happens to children who tell their parents what happens.” And it turns out that the purpose of this exercise, as near as he could tell it, I shouldn’t say exercise, this torture, this MK-Ultra program, is to break these people open, to break these souls open in order to access this extended consciousness realm.

And once we do this investigation, like you and I have, we say, “Totally understandable.” I mean, in the shamanic traditions many of them have similar kinds of… they’re not culturally understood to be torturous, they’re understood to be rites of passage, whether it’s a sweat lodge or whether it’s some other kind of experience of being stung by bees, but that would be kind of in a different thing.

But anyways, the point is the same. That is the technology that I guess I’m talking about, because certainly those  folks in the air force, the MK-Ultra, three-letter agency, they weren’t doing this from a shamanic or a magic perspective, they were doing it, as near as we can tell as, “Let’s figure out how the fucking aliens do it and do it the same way.”

What I always point to is, you know, my friend Grant Cameron and the famous Wilbert Smith memo, where it’s right there, it’s written down. “We’ve gone to the US. We’ve found that the UFOs are real, and that the mental component of it is something they’re very, very interested in,” and this fits in that time frame. “Let’s see if we can break people open, so that we might perfect this technology.”

And that’s what intrigues me Gordon, is that what if there really is a technology component to this and if you will stretch technology to mean, where they can get to some level and in that respect, maybe we would look at the shamanic and the magic traditions that you’re talking about, just in a different perspective, not worse, better, but a different perspective, in terms of how developed they are and how efficacious they are at the desired result?

Gordon White: I would suspect that that again is a definitional challenge. like you kind of landed on a towards the end there, where it’s like, “Well, how do you define technology?” And if you want to do that comparison you kind of have to go techne and go back to the Ancient Greek. I like to use words like cultural complexity instead because, it is not obvious to me, although it’s certainly entirely possible.

Firstly, all of that Whitley stuff, 100%, like sure. That’s one of the things that is alarming.

I would just say, before we talk about the technology thing. If we have comparing the [unclear 00:49:50] projects, of trying to weaponize these capacities of these children, that is kind of trying to break into the spirit world, and the word shaman is culturally bound, we all know that, we know what we’re talking about. What you will find in cultures that have this as a function within it is that the spirits choose them. So, you don’t torture all the children in a tribe, you find the ones that the spirits have picked and go, “Unfortunately for you my little son or daughter, you’re not going to have a very good life. You get to be the shaman.” That’s truly horrible and God only knows what they found with these these projects, but it’s a military assault on the spirit world.

So, if we want to kind of compare these two, that’s worth thinking with.

What I think you’re getting at is, has it already happened or will we, one day, somewhere in an underground base, have a device or a machine that can bodily move you into the spirit world or teleport you via spirit tunnels, whatever you want to call them to like other points in the galaxy? Will the underground bases have a military version of some of the capacities we find in cultures that never lost magic?

Alex Tsakiris: Hold on, because that’s one question, but here’s a second question that I want you to answer at the same time. I want to use your term, cultural complexity, and I want to suggest, is it possible that ET  has a cultural complexity that includes a mastery of some of this stuff, this extended consciousness stuff, that makes our understanding of shamanic cultures, as well as magic traditions, look like that photo that I have up on the screen of the nearly naked Amazonian people who we admire in some respects, but in other ways go, you know, “Here’s your compass, go find your way to the river, and there’s a boat on there with a motor in it, it’s a lot easier”?

Gordon White: I think, what happens is, you kind of get to that endpoint of where does technology…? So, one of the other things Whitley said, which I liked, is that advanced civilizations elsewhere in the galaxy have presumably developed a way to maintain continuous communication after death. And we would have been close, honestly. I think if we if spiritualism in the mid-1800s had gone in a different direction from a policy perspective, we may well have been there. It’s not even a technological solve at that point, what that means is that you are operating in the full universe rather than the component of it that you can perceive while you’re still in a meatsuit, right?

So, when you talk about a technology that relies on, shall we say like the physics of magic or the fact that the universe is magic and a technology built on that, you’re still in a universe that’s magic. So, you kind of get to this endpoint where you go, “Okay, so a civilization that can maintain continuous communication beyond death and can do instantaneous interplanetary transport and so on, those things can only work because the universe is magical. I’m using that term, but you know what I mean. Like we live in an animate or whether it’s a consciousness universe.

So yes and no. What I would say back, and I know this has happened to you as well, but it certainly happened to me on my travels to various sacred sites and weird places and being amongst, like tribal fetish objects and all this kind of stuff, is that a rock can do that.

If you go to say Marie Laveau’s tomb in New Orleans, as you walk up to it your blood pressure drops, and it’s a tomb. It’s from that level of reality that the technology can be built and who’s to say it hasn’t? Remember you’ve had guests on that can astral travel. So, who’s to say it hasn’t?

I agree with you that, you just end up with this kind of infinite or vanishing point where we might do it on a mechanistic basis or we might do it on an animistic basis, but you’ll still end up with this point, the realization that you are in an animated magic or consciousness universe, whatever, will occur. And that’s kind of where, like I’m not sure, And are there entities in the galaxy that have consciousness ray guns for want of an example? Do they have an iPhone that calls the devil? Yeah, probably, because the UFO contact experience, especially when you get to things like screen memory and so on, is a little alarming, there’s no other question, you know, I think that’s worth thinking with.

End 00:54:48

Start 01:41:15

Thanks again to Gordon White for joining me today on Skeptiko. The one question I tee up from this interview, let’s say we, as in the United States government or some shadow government or some other entity, is trying to break into the spirit world, is that okay? And what limitations, cautions and concerns should we have about that?

This, as you can tell, is a level 3 kind of discussion, but that’s the discussion I like having with you all, you wonderful, awesome Skeptiko listeners and forum posters and email senders. That’s the kind of dialogue I want to have.

So, I do hope you enjoyed this interview and if you did and you’d like to connect, please reach out and do so. I’d love to hear your thoughts on this. It’s the only way I’m going to figure this stuff out.

0:00 – 0:04 today we welcome Gordon white back to

0:02 – 0:06 skeptic Oh Gordon is of course the

0:04 – 0:10 creator and host of the very excellent

0:06 – 0:13 room soup blog and podcast as well as

0:10 – 0:15 the author of several really cool

0:13 – 0:19 interesting books you see him there on

0:15 – 0:21 the screen starships the chaos protocols

0:19 – 0:23 and one other what is it Pieces of Eight

0:21 – 0:25 isn’t that’s the one that’s the other

0:23 – 0:28 one he’s been a popular guest on skeptic

0:25 – 0:30 oh and I always look forward to

0:28 – 0:34 welcoming Gordon back to talk about all

0:30 – 0:37 sorts of goings on so Gordon welcome

0:34 – 0:41 back to sceptic oh it’s it’s an absolute

0:37 – 0:44 pleasure to be back ok I need to ask you

0:41 – 0:47 a favor right off the bat one of the

0:44 – 0:50 things I think is really cool about rune

0:47 – 0:52 soup the podcast is you have this

0:50 – 0:54 opening question and everyone knows this

0:52 – 0:56 by now but you ask people were you a

0:54 – 0:59 weird kid growing up and I thought wow

0:56 – 1:01 this is cool I have to do some kind of

0:59 – 1:04 question so I started this question and

1:01 – 1:07 I cannot get it right so you’re gonna

1:04 – 1:09 have to help me coach me show me how to

1:07 – 1:12 do this but here’s the question that I

1:09 – 1:14 guess I think is relevant to skeptical

1:12 – 1:16 and I want to ask people and I want to

1:14 – 1:19 find the right way to ask it but I want

1:16 – 1:23 to tune in to the first experience

1:19 – 1:27 people have with knowing in kind of a

1:23 – 1:30 sciency logic reason standpoint and how

1:27 – 1:34 that can be transformative and also how

1:30 – 1:37 knowing from a spiritual if you will

1:34 – 1:39 standpoint and how that can be profound

1:37 – 1:42 but maybe I’m just stretching it out

1:39 – 1:45 there it doesn’t have the simplicity in

1:42 – 1:48 the punch I think not being a scientist

1:45 – 1:50 that one maybe we would because I think

1:48 – 1:53 I know how I’m gonna answer it but maybe

1:50 – 1:58 that needs to be rephrased too like when

1:53 – 2:02 did you first realize that we can learn

1:58 – 2:03 things via empiricism or reasoning like

2:02 – 2:06 when was your first like oh well I can

2:03 – 2:09 actually do a thing and learn something

2:06 – 2:12 as a result of it and I guess for me

2:09 – 2:13 that when we have a small crustacean in

2:12 – 2:15 Australia called

2:13 – 2:18 yeah be and it’s basically a small

2:15 – 2:21 freshwater kind like mini Lobster and as

2:18 – 2:23 a child I think because I had I still

2:21 – 2:25 have rural cousins and they had them in

2:23 – 2:27 their dams and we had a couple of them

2:25 – 2:30 that I sort of kept as pets for a while

2:27 – 2:32 so as a kid maybe about five I suddenly

2:30 – 2:35 realized that you could I was aware

2:32 – 2:36 looking into this kind of fishbowl with

2:35 – 2:39 these things and I could feed them

2:36 – 2:41 certain stuff and keep them alive at

2:39 – 2:43 different temperatures and have them

2:41 – 2:48 grow that there was a sequence of things

2:43 – 2:50 that I could do to observe an organism

2:48 – 2:52 and the other one at about 12 or 13 I

2:50 – 2:53 went to science the word to do with like

2:52 – 2:55 looking at peripheral vision

2:53 – 2:58 and that turned out to be a kind of hot

2:55 – 3:01 because it was it was funded by a

2:58 – 3:03 chemical company well a hydrocarbon

3:01 – 3:06 company and they funded this sort of

3:03 – 3:08 statewide competition for people to like

3:06 – 3:10 design science experiments and the

3:08 – 3:12 winners got this really bizarre prize

3:10 – 3:14 which was he got to spend a three-day

3:12 – 3:17 weekend and essentially like a youth

3:14 – 3:19 camp where you would you visited a

3:17 – 3:21 nuclear facility and the games that we

3:19 – 3:23 would play had reps from the company

3:21 – 3:27 there and they were asking questions

3:23 – 3:28 like who would you invite to out of

3:27 – 3:30 anyone in history here would you invite

3:28 – 3:33 to dinner and like getting people to

3:30 – 3:35 test like different little bottle rocket

3:33 – 3:38 stuff and I’m like you guys are actually

3:35 – 3:40 I who might actually want to pay for

3:38 – 3:41 going through university and I kind of

3:40 – 3:43 worked that out at about twelve and

3:41 – 3:45 misbehaved so they didn’t pay for my

3:43 – 3:47 University but I might this is odd I

3:45 – 3:49 just I just did a little science

3:47 – 3:52 experiment at school and all of a sudden

3:49 – 3:54 I have to spend three days with a oil

3:52 – 3:56 company executives having him ask weird

3:54 – 3:58 questions so those are the two from a

3:56 – 4:01 science perspective but it the one that

3:58 – 4:03 sticks with me is the idea that you can

4:01 – 4:06 there’s a body of knowledge that you can

4:03 – 4:08 apply to keep an out an animal or

4:06 – 4:10 whatever alive the spiritual one is

4:08 – 4:12 easier and it’s I guess it’s stretches

4:10 – 4:13 spiritual I think this want to be good

4:12 – 4:16 this is a good question to ask people

4:13 – 4:19 because mine would have been sleep

4:16 – 4:21 paralysis hag attacks which I would have

4:19 – 4:24 had I’ve had since I was about four so

4:21 – 4:26 it unbidden entity contact some of which

4:24 – 4:28 may or may not have been a screen memory

4:26 – 4:30 we’re two things but I was a kid that

4:28 – 4:34 that happened to and so my first

4:30 – 4:37 spiritual experience was not that

4:34 – 4:38 pleasant frankly and I had a sequence of

4:37 – 4:40 them and the science one I think if

4:38 – 4:42 maybe if we talk about it is when did

4:40 – 4:45 you first realize you can use reason or

4:42 – 4:47 you can reason out how we can know

4:45 – 4:49 things about the world but those are my

4:47 – 4:51 two answers I like it I like this is a

4:49 – 4:54 very skeptical double question to start

4:51 – 4:56 with I really like the way you kind of

4:54 – 4:59 are moving that and it is because

4:56 – 5:01 science part throws people and I like

4:59 – 5:03 the way you just kind of recast it there

5:01 – 5:04 at the end because I think that is the

5:03 – 5:09 experience that I’m trying to tap into

5:04 – 5:13 is that that idea that I can through

5:09 – 5:15 reason have some control over things

5:13 – 5:17 even if it’s just knowing and

5:15 – 5:19 extrapolating from that but I could know

5:17 – 5:22 other things you know I mean it’s kind

5:19 – 5:25 of like the first launching point to

5:22 – 5:26 knowing more and yeah I think the

5:25 – 5:29 spiritual thing is kind of interesting

5:26 – 5:32 too because I’ve always had a very

5:29 – 5:35 frightful kind of first experience that

5:32 – 5:37 is kind of like a sleep paralysis thing

5:35 – 5:40 but it was kind of this I forget the

5:37 – 5:43 term for it but it’s like this when you

5:40 – 5:45 feel your body is misshapen you know

5:43 – 5:47 kind of like really in extreme

5:45 – 5:49 exaggerated kind of ways and I remember

5:47 – 5:51 experiencing that England whoa what’s

5:49 – 5:54 going on and it really kind of freaked

5:51 – 5:57 me out when you a kid yeah yeah yes of

5:54 – 5:59 my sequence so I had classic hag attacks

5:57 – 6:01 where would be sleep paralysis might be

5:59 – 6:03 sort of slowly become aware but there

6:01 – 6:05 was an entity in the room that was

6:03 – 6:07 waiting more or less at the door until I

6:05 – 6:09 became aware of it and then it would

6:07 – 6:10 come right up close and and I wouldn’t

6:09 – 6:11 be able to move and I couldn’t open my

6:10 – 6:14 eyes and it was right there and it was

6:11 – 6:16 clearly a thing that delighted in and

6:14 – 6:17 was probably feeding off the fear but

6:16 – 6:19 the other thing that I think is

6:17 – 6:22 potentially a scream memory has a body

6:19 – 6:24 shape changed to it it starts off as

6:22 – 6:27 sleep paralysis but I would get

6:24 – 6:31 microscopically small to the point where

6:27 – 6:33 the fabric of the bed sheets were thick

6:31 – 6:36 as skip wrote that was it there would be

6:33 – 6:38 I had memories of them and as a result

6:36 – 6:39 so hypodermic needles became huge and I

6:38 – 6:41 had a vision of

6:39 – 6:43 an experience of them really large

6:41 – 6:45 needles being near me and then also a

6:43 – 6:49 Romulan Daddario dex class for the Nerds

6:45 – 6:52 out there warbird as a thing that was

6:49 – 6:55 there and this is ou and and a figure

6:52 – 6:57 that had a beat ped so this quite

6:55 – 6:58 clearly looks like some sort of screen

6:57 – 7:01 memory of a thing but it’s interesting

6:58 – 7:03 you mention the body shape change

7:01 – 7:05 because I knew this particular one was

7:03 – 7:07 coming on because I’d still sleep

7:05 – 7:10 paralysis but my impression was a sure

7:07 – 7:13 to microscopic size so you still have

7:10 – 7:17 sleep paralysis huh no I haven’t not

7:13 – 7:19 since actually not magic but I have so

7:17 – 7:22 they all kind of went away at about 13

7:19 – 7:24 and it’s the thing about however they

7:22 – 7:26 work the thing about simple house

7:24 – 7:27 protection and and sort of bedroom

7:26 – 7:29 protection stuff that you find

7:27 – 7:31 everywhere around the world is that they

7:29 – 7:34 really do work and you really don’t need

7:31 – 7:35 any skill in it like you because I was a

7:34 – 7:40 kid and I’m reading out of these you

7:35 – 7:42 know wicker books and some sage in you

7:40 – 7:44 know some salt around and yeah and you

7:42 – 7:47 and and I don’t know what to tell you it

7:44 – 7:49 works which rather suggests it however

7:47 – 7:51 we you know use these terms or define

7:49 – 7:56 them and a lot of whatever is going on

7:51 – 7:58 is mind right but yeah it gave it up for

7:56 – 8:00 me that’s one way to interpret it I

7:58 – 8:04 think that’s really that’s really

8:00 – 8:07 interesting and maybe that leads us into

8:04 – 8:10 kind of how I framed up our little talk

8:07 – 8:12 today because I heard you’ve done so

8:10 – 8:16 many awesome interviews but one that you

8:12 – 8:18 did recently was with our friend over at

8:16 – 8:21 forum berry Alice al and what I really

8:18 – 8:24 liked about his interview is he went

8:21 – 8:27 back to the starships book which i think

8:24 – 8:29 is as much as it is appreciated by folks

8:27 – 8:32 I think it’s underappreciated and I

8:29 – 8:35 think it had a couple of interesting

8:32 – 8:37 little guideposts that I still follow

8:35 – 8:39 and I find myself quoting all the time

8:37 – 8:43 I’m skeptical and one is this idea of

8:39 – 8:46 the data versus the interpretation of

8:43 – 8:51 the data and it’s a rather a simple idea

8:46 – 8:52 with profound application that winds up

8:51 – 8:54 being

8:52 – 8:57 in so many more places than we usually

8:54 – 8:58 talk about it but I just explained to

8:57 – 9:00 people I was like the how you talked

8:58 – 9:02 about in the dig because we can really

9:00 – 9:05 understand the person who’s digging it’s

9:02 – 9:08 not the person but go ahead and just

9:05 – 9:10 explain so one of the things Nassim

9:08 – 9:13 Taleb said in his most recent book that

9:10 – 9:15 i really really liked is you don’t ask

9:13 – 9:18 the carpenter who built the roulette

9:15 – 9:21 wheel for gambling advice because it’s

9:18 – 9:23 not you they might have domain expertise

9:21 – 9:25 over here but that’s not necessarily a

9:23 – 9:27 thing that doesn’t imply that they have

9:25 – 9:30 domain expertise in something that

9:27 – 9:32 happens to be separate or even adjacent

9:30 – 9:33 so when you when you’re talking about it

9:32 – 9:36 from an archaeological perspective

9:33 – 9:40 absolutely there is a skillset involved

9:36 – 9:41 in digging and cataloging and and and

9:40 – 9:43 doing the carbon 14 tests and all the

9:41 – 9:47 other stuff that goes with actually

9:43 – 9:50 generating data from a archaeological

9:47 – 9:52 project what how we interpret that data

9:50 – 9:54 is a completely separate skill set it is

9:52 – 9:56 its philosophical I mean you can certain

9:54 – 9:58 you might actually be good at both but

9:56 – 9:59 it doesn’t necessarily follow that you

9:58 – 10:01 would be another example are used in

9:59 – 10:02 chaos protocols which I like is a

10:01 – 10:04 dentist might be good at making money

10:02 – 10:06 but it doesn’t necessarily follow that

10:04 – 10:09 he or she would be good at keeping money

10:06 – 10:11 it is a different skill to generate

10:09 – 10:13 money and and to invest it and we we

10:11 – 10:14 very often conflate these things and the

10:13 – 10:16 when it comes to the kind of stuff that

10:14 – 10:19 we talk about on our respective shows

10:16 – 10:21 we’re both I mean I my previous job was

10:19 – 10:24 global data director it’s literally in

10:21 – 10:25 my title so I rather like data and I

10:24 – 10:27 rather like interpreting it and I’ve

10:25 – 10:31 spent a lot of time thinking with how

10:27 – 10:34 data are generated and at what

10:31 – 10:37 interpretive modes are the most useful

10:34 – 10:41 and who has good ones and and so on so I

10:37 – 10:42 really like and I think if you focus on

10:41 – 10:45 this it does allow you to swim in some

10:42 – 10:47 stranger waters this is a very Chaos

10:45 – 10:48 magic perspective I suppose it allows

10:47 – 10:51 you to swim in some really strange

10:48 – 10:52 waters because and there are no data

10:51 – 10:56 that aren’t irrelevant

10:52 – 10:58 it’s just how you manage the kind of in

10:56 – 11:00 and out and who you listen to and

10:58 – 11:02 including yourself in that in terms of

11:00 – 11:03 interpretation and data

11:02 – 11:08 so on and I think it’s a really good

11:03 – 11:09 yardstick for digging into topic areas

11:08 – 11:11 that are I mean you’ve got the ancient

11:09 – 11:13 aliens picture on the screen here

11:11 – 11:16 digging into topic areas that might be

11:13 – 11:18 kind of that low quality if you will but

11:16 – 11:20 there is still quality in there there

11:18 – 11:22 are still good data and and it’s looking

11:20 – 11:24 at where whether that interpretation

11:22 – 11:27 that comes from say the ancient aliens

11:24 – 11:29 program is is the best one for looking

11:27 – 11:32 at the anomalies that we do in fact find

11:29 – 11:35 in history and probably not at least as

11:32 – 11:36 described dementia you know let’s talk

11:35 – 11:39 about that for a minute

11:36 – 11:42 I think ancient aliens is a phenomenal

11:39 – 11:44 show and I think if we’re just to apply

11:42 – 11:47 the fair standard across the board in

11:44 – 11:48 terms of how academia is dealing with

11:47 – 11:51 the data versus how they’re dealing with

11:48 – 11:53 the data to me they’re their heads and

11:51 – 11:54 shoulders above no matter how poorly

11:53 – 11:57 they do it they’re so far ahead you know

11:54 – 11:60 we did the interview together with John

11:57 – 12:01 Brandenburg and I think you did it and

11:60 – 12:03 we broadcast on skeptic oh he’s on there

12:01 – 12:05 all the time and he’s brilliant I’m

12:03 – 12:07 constantly watching him on there and I’m

12:05 – 12:08 on what wow this is super insightful and

12:07 – 12:11 not everyone they have on there is just

12:08 – 12:14 a zest exactly right yeah and but back

12:11 – 12:16 to your point I think you know the

12:14 – 12:19 tricky thing the the dirty little secret

12:16 – 12:23 about the data versus interpretation in

12:19 – 12:25 my experience is therein lies the the

12:23 – 12:28 problem is the never-ending

12:25 – 12:31 interpretation filtering there is no

12:28 – 12:33 endpoint really into how far it can be

12:31 – 12:36 interpreted so it’s almost like one of

12:33 – 12:40 those axioms that we can never you know

12:36 – 12:42 get past because we’re constant that we

12:40 – 12:44 are always interpreting and the

12:42 – 12:48 interpretation is always open to change

12:44 – 12:51 given when we find how those filters

12:48 – 12:54 need to be changed so why don’t you like

12:51 – 12:58 18 aliens it’s not it’s not that I don’t

12:54 – 12:60 like it I think you have when you have a

12:58 – 13:03 hammer everything looks like a nail

12:60 – 13:06 and so bouncing up and down the

13:03 – 13:09 historical record looking for buildings

13:06 – 13:11 that are impressive and saying aliens

13:09 – 13:13 must have done that whether it’s India

13:11 – 13:15 in the 1400s or whether it’s gobekli

13:13 – 13:18 tepe or whether it’s the Maya

13:15 – 13:23 what have you is insufficiently nuanced

13:18 – 13:26 to take the discussion or the analysis

13:23 – 13:29 or the interpretation to that next level

13:26 – 13:30 now my background is in I have a

13:29 – 13:33 background in in multi-channel

13:30 – 13:35 television so X Discovery Channel and

13:33 – 13:36 one of the problems is whether the

13:35 – 13:39 problems with multi-channel from a

13:36 – 13:41 commercial perspective is they don’t

13:39 – 13:43 have very they aim for evergreen

13:41 – 13:45 programs so they aim to build a program

13:43 – 13:47 that is the same every time and is

13:45 – 13:49 popular and when I was at Discovery

13:47 – 13:50 Channel it was Deadliest Catch because

13:49 – 13:52 it doesn’t change every season it’s a

13:50 – 13:55 bunch of guys on a boat with big waves

13:52 – 13:57 and people loved it and and the trouble

13:55 – 14:01 with a long-running program like ancient

13:57 – 14:02 aliens is exactly that the majority of

14:01 – 14:05 the the money that a multi-channel

14:02 – 14:07 broadcaster makes is in long-running

14:05 – 14:09 programs that they can sell to other

14:07 – 14:11 networks and so on right so ancient

14:09 – 14:13 aliens is a victim of its own success

14:11 – 14:16 which is it can’t ever change because

14:13 – 14:18 it’s hit a formula that allows people to

14:16 – 14:20 watch it and unfortunately that is where

14:18 – 14:22 you get into variable levels of quality

14:20 – 14:24 because yes dr. Brandenburg’s amazing

14:22 – 14:25 I would suggest instead that people

14:24 – 14:29 maybe read his book

14:25 – 14:30 and get like some some pure John because

14:29 – 14:33 I have friends who are who’ve either

14:30 – 14:35 beam on it or turned down being on it or

14:33 – 14:36 I’ve been on it going I regret that I’m

14:35 – 14:38 not going to do that again and it’s

14:36 – 14:40 largely because you sort of sit in front

14:38 – 14:42 of a blue screen and you kind of have to

14:40 – 14:44 they’ll arrange the question so you say

14:42 – 14:47 a thing and get a soundbite then they’ll

14:44 – 14:50 kind of sequence so it’s you know it’s

14:47 – 14:53 an ambitious and obviously it’s a very

14:50 – 14:54 fascinating and valid area to cover it’s

14:53 – 14:58 just where they’re a long-running

14:54 – 15:00 multi-channel program can deliver

14:58 – 15:05 sufficient quality over time and I don’t

15:00 – 15:07 think it can is why okay I want to move

15:05 – 15:09 on because I have so many other things I

15:07 – 15:14 want to talk to you about but I will not

15:09 – 15:17 move on I will persist one thing that I

15:14 – 15:21 guess I’d push back on is your first

15:17 – 15:24 point I think the nail that they’re

15:21 – 15:28 pounding on is the correct nail and

15:24 – 15:28 given the mountain that they’re they’re

15:28 – 15:32 trying to

15:28 – 15:33 I’m the the predominant view that

15:32 – 15:35 they’re up against

15:33 – 15:37 and through throughout academia just and

15:35 – 15:38 it’s so pervasive that this couldn’t

15:37 – 15:41 possibly be true and especially

15:38 – 15:44 concerning how long running the show is

15:41 – 15:46 yes that we do need an alternative

15:44 – 15:49 explanation for why the pyramids look

15:46 – 15:53 the same as the pyramids over in Central

15:49 – 15:55 America into the larger question is why

15:53 – 15:57 do keep people look up to the sky you

15:55 – 15:60 know why is there their instinct but I

15:57 – 16:01 do the Dogon tell us that you know that

15:60 – 16:03 hey they just tell you straight up yeah

16:01 – 16:05 we all haven’t any contact with the

16:03 – 16:08 outside world because the Syrians came

16:05 – 16:09 down harder many hundreds thousands of

16:08 – 16:12 years ago and told us were from the star

16:09 – 16:15 people I mean to me it’s almost like

16:12 – 16:18 they they have to pound on the same nail

16:15 – 16:20 because it does seem to be the best nail

16:18 – 16:23 at the moment it’s the Occam’s razor

16:20 – 16:27 kind of thing it’s the simplest most

16:23 – 16:29 parsimonious answer to the question of

16:27 – 16:34 what was the inspiration for these

16:29 – 16:38 ancient cultures to look up into be

16:34 – 16:41 fascinated with the Stars and star gods

16:38 – 16:44 and all the rest of that I so I’d kind

16:41 – 16:48 of say that and I’d also defend the show

16:44 – 16:49 in that Deadliest Catch yes for a while

16:48 – 16:53 but if you look at what the show has

16:49 – 16:55 done recently in the last couple years I

16:53 – 16:57 got to take my hat off to him I think

16:55 – 16:60 they’ve done a fantastic job their show

16:57 – 17:02 on AI and on advanced technologies I

16:60 – 17:05 thought was fantastic I think their

17:02 – 17:07 shows where our buddy there has gone out

17:05 – 17:11 on the road what’s his name zu colas or

17:07 – 17:14 George George yet George are my Greek

17:11 – 17:17 compadre there you know I think his is

17:14 – 17:18 it’s very very great you know you’re

17:17 – 17:20 getting him out there on the road

17:18 – 17:22 talking to people it’s no longer the

17:20 – 17:25 blue-screen he’s down feet on the ground

17:22 – 17:27 kind of doing stuff we never would have

17:25 – 17:31 imagined I don’t think that we would

17:27 – 17:36 have this kind of mainstreaming of these

17:31 – 17:39 ideas so um I’m a big cheerleader go go

17:36 – 17:44 go you know well

17:39 – 17:45 fair enough okay I’m not I did write a

17:44 – 17:48 whole book about it I don’t think it’s

17:45 – 17:52 the best explanation we shall we shall

17:48 – 17:56 we shall return to that because you know

17:52 – 17:59 best explanation well let’s let’s stop

17:56 – 18:04 right there what is a better explanation

17:59 – 18:07 today given the data we have and you

18:04 – 18:10 can’t default to Jacques Vallee because

18:07 – 18:12 that’s not really an explanation it’s

18:10 – 18:17 just a call to broaden the

18:12 – 18:18 interpretation possibilities so that

18:17 – 18:22 when you talk about the similarity

18:18 – 18:23 between pyramids if you include good and

18:22 – 18:27 Padang in that which is in the book and

18:23 – 18:32 I think you should you’re dealing with a

18:27 – 18:33 pyramid building project that is that

18:32 – 18:36 happened multiple times over about

18:33 – 18:38 between 15 and 20 thousand years so if

18:36 – 18:41 they’re the inspiration for it how many

18:38 – 18:45 times did they come down and where are

18:41 – 18:49 they there is a better there is there

18:45 – 18:53 has to be a better understanding of what

18:49 – 18:56 human interaction with off-planet is

18:53 – 18:58 that allows for these kind of ideas to

18:56 – 19:02 occur over time because they absolutely

18:58 – 19:04 do and it doesn’t necessarily require

19:02 – 19:06 physical Syrians

19:04 – 19:09 landing in West Africa and talking to

19:06 – 19:11 the Dogon when we have no evidence of

19:09 – 19:16 that but we do absolutely have evidence

19:11 – 19:20 for telepathy and you know distant like

19:16 – 19:22 nonverbal communication when we do these

19:20 – 19:25 kind of things so the Syrians don’t

19:22 – 19:26 actually need to get here to tell us

19:25 – 19:28 this stuff and what if it’s the actual

19:26 – 19:31 stars themselves like this is coming

19:28 – 19:32 back to dr. Sheldrake right when he if

19:31 – 19:34 he asked like the implications which

19:32 – 19:36 neither is like this but it’s it’s a

19:34 – 19:37 great way of describing it the

19:36 – 19:39 implications of Pam psychism is if the

19:37 – 19:41 Sun has some form of consciousness now

19:39 – 19:44 neither is appendicitis for very good

19:41 – 19:46 reasons but that’s what I mean like

19:44 – 19:48 rather than having something for which

19:46 – 19:51 we have no evidence we do have evidence

19:48 – 19:52 for these Psychopaths –’tis and it

19:51 – 19:54 seems like that’s a better place

19:52 – 19:55 to start with it was sort of the whole

19:54 – 19:59 point of the book rather than having

19:55 – 20:03 aliens keeps showing up that’s I just

19:59 – 20:06 wonder if I agreed like this is the cool

20:03 – 20:07 thing about talking with you and having

20:06 – 20:09 this kind of exchange because I feel

20:07 – 20:11 like we can immediately go to the kind

20:09 – 20:13 of what I was called a level 3 kind of

20:11 – 20:14 thing beyond you know oh this can’t

20:13 – 20:16 possibly be true

20:14 – 20:19 beyond the beat back at the skeptics

20:16 – 20:22 beyond oh yes tell me please tell me the

20:19 – 20:25 answer and just hash out you know the

20:22 – 20:27 real disagreements and that de screamin

20:25 – 20:29 that’s really what we’re talking about

20:27 – 20:31 so I interviewed guy just recently a

20:29 – 20:33 fantastic interview because I love when

20:31 – 20:34 these interviews going totally different

20:33 – 20:37 directions than I anticipated

20:34 – 20:40 so the guy’s name is Steve Briggs and I

20:37 – 20:42 know him through my friend Rick art read

20:40 – 20:44 but at the gas pump because they both

20:42 – 20:47 for 20 years were following around

20:44 – 20:50 Maharishi and doing whatever he said in

20:47 – 20:51 the TM movement and for 20 years this

20:50 – 20:55 guy was training some of the top

20:51 – 20:57 corporate leaders in India on

20:55 – 20:58 Transcendental Meditation and then

20:57 – 21:00 meditation techniques in his highly

20:58 – 21:02 advanced and he’s meditating for seven

21:00 – 21:03 eight hours a day and except when he

21:02 – 21:05 goes on retreats and then he’s at

21:03 – 21:06 meditating for 20 hours a day for long

21:05 – 21:08 periods of time and he’s traveling

21:06 – 21:10 through India and he’s meeting these

21:08 – 21:14 unbelievable sages and mystics and he

21:10 – 21:15 meets one and the guy says his he

21:14 – 21:19 describes him as just beautiful

21:15 – 21:20 beautiful man like like features are

21:19 – 21:22 beautiful but he also has this glow

21:20 – 21:24 about him and he goes to talk to this

21:22 – 21:27 guy and the guy says yeah you know I’m

21:24 – 21:29 like 105 thousand years old or whatever

21:27 – 21:31 the hell these crazy Indian stories are

21:29 – 21:34 but then he gives them some really

21:31 – 21:35 practical advice he says look here’s

21:34 – 21:36 what you can do to improve your

21:35 – 21:38 meditation practice and you’ve already

21:36 – 21:40 been meditating for 20 years but you’re

21:38 – 21:42 so pretty far along but you can just do

21:40 – 21:45 these simple things and the next thing

21:42 – 21:47 he does is write what you were saying he

21:45 – 21:50 says and here’s how you can astral

21:47 – 21:54 travel an astral travel better in here

21:50 – 21:58 how you can gather your internal

21:54 – 22:01 energies and travel so he travels and he

21:58 – 22:04 travels to Syria to the Syrian star

22:01 – 22:06 system and he meets so this is the

22:04 – 22:06 interview right so I’m hearing this guy

22:06 – 22:10 and first let me

22:06 – 22:13 say the this guy is kind of like a very

22:10 – 22:16 conventional guy in a lot of ways NBA

22:13 – 22:19 tennis X you know played tennis at a

22:16 – 22:21 national level in college threw for a

22:19 – 22:24 scholarship that’s when he had his first

22:21 – 22:27 spiritual slash psychic experience was

22:24 – 22:28 on the tennis court when you know it’s

22:27 – 22:32 kind of the Michael Jordan effect

22:28 – 22:34 everything slows down and I can see the

22:32 – 22:36 tennis ball boom boom boom and he’s like

22:34 – 22:37 14 years old when this happens and he

22:36 – 22:40 wins the match and he’s like nationally

22:37 – 22:41 ranked and all this stuff so again there

22:40 – 22:43 are all these elements to the story that

22:41 – 22:46 tie us to a reality that we can all

22:43 – 22:48 accept and now he’s gonna tell you he

22:46 – 22:51 travels to the Syrian star system and

22:48 – 22:51 now the story gets even Wilder because

22:51 – 22:53 he said they have all these different

22:51 – 22:55 planets they all these different

22:53 – 22:58 technologies and his explanation just to

22:55 – 23:04 throw this on the table for the

22:58 – 23:07 starships for the UFOs is they’re like

23:04 – 23:11 why not yeah we could we can and do show

23:07 – 23:13 up psychically but it’s fun we show up

23:11 – 23:15 in starships sometimes too and that’s

23:13 – 23:17 the way we do it and why wouldn’t we do

23:15 – 23:20 it and we like interacting and you know

23:17 – 23:23 the whole thing so it’s trippy but it’s

23:20 – 23:26 like in another way I’ve thought about

23:23 – 23:32 that many times since it’s like that’s a

23:26 – 23:34 very fucking reason I love it I’m here

23:32 – 23:37 for it I think that’s great like that’s

23:34 – 23:40 that’s not that far from what I kind of

23:37 – 23:43 think is going on absolutely which is

23:40 – 23:46 you’re right you’re right that is not

23:43 – 23:48 contradictory to what you’re saying it’s

23:46 – 23:50 again taking the interpretation part of

23:48 – 23:52 the formula and saying you know we’re

23:50 – 23:53 talking about an interpretation well we

23:52 – 23:55 can really kind of wad that up into a

23:53 – 23:57 ball and throw it into a wastebasket too

23:55 – 23:59 because all bets are off we gotta turbit

23:57 – 24:01 it just about every way you could

23:59 – 24:02 imagine and and this guy I haven’t

24:01 – 24:04 listened to that show I’ve been you know

24:02 – 24:09 as you can see I’ve been out and about

24:04 – 24:11 I’m fleeing bush fires but I I don’t see

24:09 – 24:14 what he described isn’t that far from

24:11 – 24:15 what I just mean in starships about what

24:14 – 24:18 I actually think is going on like in the

24:15 – 24:20 universe like that that level of purpose

24:18 – 24:23 of interaction

24:20 – 24:25 is like why the fuck not like that

24:23 – 24:27 relationality I think is what’s going on

24:25 – 24:29 I think that’s what’s going on spirits

24:27 – 24:30 aliens whatever you want to call it I

24:29 – 24:33 think it’s just if you’ve ever been

24:30 – 24:35 scuba diving and you see different you

24:33 – 24:36 know fish species and other organisms

24:35 – 24:38 that are in there they’re all just kind

24:36 – 24:40 of like checking each other out like

24:38 – 24:42 what else is there to do like we exist

24:40 – 24:46 let’s interact and I think that is good

24:42 – 24:48 you know that is somewhat of a lead-in

24:46 – 24:53 to the next topic that I was going to

24:48 – 24:56 toss on the proverbial table being at

24:53 – 24:59 the PowerPoint screen here because it is

24:56 – 25:02 a perfect lead-in isn’t it to magic and

24:59 – 25:04 to how we might understand the extended

25:02 – 25:05 consciousness realms and what’s going on

25:04 – 25:08 there because there’s all this confusion

25:05 – 25:10 and like you and I were talking but sit

25:08 – 25:12 on air or was it not wonder saying you

25:10 – 25:14 know throw a little sage or burn a

25:12 – 25:15 little sage and throw a little salt on

25:14 – 25:18 the ground and I don’t know it just

25:15 – 25:21 seems to work over and over again and

25:18 – 25:23 you know why not and and then how far do

25:21 – 25:26 you want to go with the why not thing

25:23 – 25:28 but the larger question if I could pull

25:26 – 25:32 back without totally confusing everyone

25:28 – 25:37 as I want to apply this data versus

25:32 – 25:40 interpretation meme to magic because I

25:37 – 25:43 think the challenge is as I was just

25:40 – 25:47 kind of stumbling through is we get so

25:43 – 25:49 many different sources of data depending

25:47 – 25:51 on where we look for magic whether we

25:49 – 25:54 look in Christianity which is a point

25:51 – 25:57 that you’ve always made I think quite

25:54 – 25:59 eloquently and in a way that kind of

25:57 – 26:01 jolts people into a realization that

25:59 – 26:05 they have to have this broader

26:01 – 26:07 understanding at least of what our

26:05 – 26:09 connection to this extended

26:07 – 26:14 consciousness magic realm is but then

26:09 – 26:17 let me step back and any initial

26:14 – 26:23 thoughts on data interpretation as it

26:17 – 26:24 applies to magic its definition was I’ve

26:23 – 26:26 always wanted to ask you what your

26:24 – 26:31 definition of an extended consciousness

26:26 – 26:34 is first start it’s yes bingo no I you

26:31 – 26:37 may roll over and play dead

26:34 – 26:39 hmm because I think that is an

26:37 – 26:41 indication and the other one is and you

26:39 – 26:44 learn this like talking about dr. hunter

26:41 – 26:46 for instance mutual friend Jack hunter

26:44 – 26:49 when you look at some of the things that

26:46 – 26:52 are available like separating data and

26:49 – 26:53 interpretation or theory and practice is

26:52 – 26:55 itself a practice

26:53 – 26:57 so what disciplines like anthropology

26:55 – 27:01 have sort of worked out over the last

26:57 – 27:03 thirty years is that even if we try to

27:01 – 27:05 split it as experiment and then results

27:03 – 27:08 or data generation and interpretation as

27:05 – 27:11 two separate things they are in fact one

27:08 – 27:15 continuous process they are in fact a

27:11 – 27:17 behavior that Western is coming out of

27:15 – 27:19 an empirical mindset do and when we want

27:17 – 27:21 to start doing comparison and this is

27:19 – 27:23 what the anthropologists did we dropped

27:21 – 27:25 down to that level and realize we are a

27:23 – 27:28 we are a kind of continuously embodying

27:25 – 27:30 or from an embodiment or bodied

27:28 – 27:34 perspective this is how we organize the

27:30 – 27:39 world and it’s at that level that we

27:34 – 27:40 approach non-empirical cultures because

27:39 – 27:42 they’re kind of going along this

27:40 – 27:44 organizing and interpreting of the world

27:42 – 27:45 slits into visions of things like data

27:44 – 27:47 and interpretations well they look very

27:45 – 27:49 different if we drop if we jump up to a

27:47 – 27:51 level where we try to look at their data

27:49 – 27:52 and then interpret it we actually

27:51 – 27:55 haven’t but out of their own heads to do

27:52 – 27:58 it so an extended consciousness we need

27:55 – 27:59 to define magic we’d need to define and

27:58 – 28:02 we’d also just need to hang a lamp on

27:59 – 28:04 the fact that when we split things like

28:02 – 28:06 this and we try to look cross-culturally

28:04 – 28:09 a minute kind of jeff kraebel comparison

28:06 – 28:12 mode we have to be really careful that

28:09 – 28:16 as we do it we aren’t actually just

28:12 – 28:18 still being Cartesian as we jump into

28:16 – 28:20 non Cartesian cultures because it just

28:18 – 28:23 breaks on impact when you do it so that

28:20 – 28:26 would be where I begin with it if we

28:23 – 28:27 want to define magic I always define it

28:26 – 28:29 this way and I think it’s the kind of

28:27 – 28:32 best opening gambit it’s it’s a culture

28:29 – 28:35 specific way of describing the side

28:32 – 28:38 capacities of a human at least so

28:35 – 28:40 because the the powers that magic has is

28:38 – 28:42 conserved across culture and we have

28:40 – 28:44 them and this is the dr. Aden stuff

28:42 – 28:47 right like and we have observed them in

28:44 – 28:47 an empirical fashion to both yours in my

28:47 – 28:50 satisfaction

28:47 – 28:54 that they exist so over the last hundred

28:50 – 28:57 and twenty years how they how they

28:54 – 28:60 present and how they are experienced and

28:57 – 29:01 embodied outside of our culture is very

28:60 – 29:03 different around the world but that’s

29:01 – 29:06 that’s kind of what I mean like we’re

29:03 – 29:08 it’s so fraught on the first it’s

29:06 – 29:10 actually easy it’s actually a really

29:08 – 29:12 easy step to get okay so we’re gonna

29:10 – 29:13 jump down here I get that and then all

29:12 – 29:14 of a sudden leads these kind of

29:13 – 29:16 cross-cultural

29:14 – 29:20 relational activities like the Syrians

29:16 – 29:23 and the humans just why not for the fuck

29:20 – 29:27 of it become available to us in a way

29:23 – 29:29 that he’s an extractive or damaging so

29:27 – 29:31 it’s actually really really easy but

29:29 – 29:33 it’s so easy that we sometimes miss it

29:31 – 29:35 and that’s what I really really like

29:33 – 29:37 about what’s happened in anthropology in

29:35 – 29:41 the last couple decades that they’ve had

29:37 – 29:43 they had further to go in in getting

29:41 – 29:44 that right because Anthropologie’s of

29:43 – 29:47 course the disappointment has literal

29:44 – 29:49 skeletons in its closet in in Amsterdam

29:47 – 29:51 and London and Chicago that they have to

29:49 – 29:52 kind of sheepishly give back to like the

29:51 – 29:54 Mallory and the other originals and

29:52 – 29:56 whatever so they have actual skeletons

29:54 – 29:58 and so they’ve done a lot more that

29:56 – 29:60 soul-searching work and there are some

29:58 – 30:03 really good techniques about how we do

29:60 – 30:06 this relationality that I think have

30:03 – 30:09 tremendous use when it comes to the kind

30:06 – 30:11 of stuff we do in our shows which is

30:09 – 30:12 that what can we learn from what life

30:11 – 30:15 ways are interacting with us and what

30:12 – 30:17 does that mean for our life ways oh oh

30:15 – 30:20 so cool it’s so awesome there’s so many

30:17 – 30:22 things to pull apart there and I always

30:20 – 30:24 want to kind of jump right in with the

30:22 – 30:26 adversarial kind of point and why not

30:24 – 30:29 that’s my nature I love what you’re

30:26 – 30:32 saying on so many levels and let’s start

30:29 – 30:34 with the extended non extended so

30:32 – 30:36 spot-on but your point is super well

30:34 – 30:38 taken and if anyone missed it the idea

30:36 – 30:42 is that I think you’re trying to get

30:38 – 30:44 across is we can’t really talk about

30:42 – 30:49 extended consciousness realms without

30:44 – 30:52 defining what the consciousness realm in

30:49 – 30:55 its entirety is we can’t start putting

30:52 – 30:58 these arbitrary dividers up especially

30:55 – 31:00 when those dividers wind up being brick

30:58 – 31:01 walls that are 20 feet high that no one

31:00 – 31:02 is allowed

31:01 – 31:05 to jump over unless they have certain

31:02 – 31:07 academic credentials or some other

31:05 – 31:11 credential like you’re the super shaman

31:07 – 31:13 that where is the beaded feathered cap

31:11 – 31:14 on then you can jump over but no one

31:13 – 31:17 else can and neither one of us kind of

31:14 – 31:20 like those kind of limitations I would

31:17 – 31:23 suggest that I punch back a little bit

31:20 – 31:28 that the the definition that you give of

31:23 – 31:30 the magic has the same limitations when

31:28 – 31:32 we talk about psyche psyche ape

31:30 – 31:34 abilities because in the same way let me

31:32 – 31:37 start defining what is Sai and we start

31:34 – 31:40 differentiating it from our everyday

31:37 – 31:43 experience in some ways that makes sense

31:40 – 31:45 and we can understand it but in other

31:43 – 31:47 very ordinary ways we come to understand

31:45 – 31:50 that there is no separation so

31:47 – 31:52 absolutely that’s absolutely correct so

31:50 – 31:54 I start with that as a definition

31:52 – 31:56 because it’s like landing coordinates to

31:54 – 31:59 to situate the discussion if you

31:56 – 32:01 actually look at say Eduardo cones work

31:59 – 32:05 in a marvelous book called how first

32:01 – 32:07 thing we need to situate that we need to

32:05 – 32:09 shock ourselves and it’s just fade in

32:07 – 32:11 there it’s a difference between extended

32:09 – 32:13 a nun extended I know that you don’t

32:11 – 32:16 actually have when you stop to think

32:13 – 32:19 about it a model that allows for some

32:16 – 32:20 sort of artificial divide between

32:19 – 32:22 consciousness is experienced when you’re

32:20 – 32:25 at the supermarket and when you’re

32:22 – 32:27 astral traveling it’s it’s a it’s

32:25 – 32:30 consciousness it is what it is right so

32:27 – 32:32 if you start with this eye thing you can

32:30 – 32:35 situate yourself a going okay this is in

32:32 – 32:38 fact how far this way of being in the

32:35 – 32:41 world can sort of extend and once you go

32:38 – 32:43 to non enlightenment cultures and

32:41 – 32:45 experience their life ways and kind of

32:43 – 32:47 compare them to your own and in that

32:45 – 32:49 sort of cry per desk way you find that

32:47 – 32:51 there is no difference between the dream

32:49 – 32:55 realm and the spirit realm and and all

32:51 – 32:58 and so their model of how their flow

32:55 – 33:01 model of how reality works has a much

32:58 – 33:02 look clean is the wrong word is the

33:01 – 33:05 wrong word and you’re going to get

33:02 – 33:06 coming up that you’re gonna keep coming

33:05 – 33:09 up with the wrong word

33:06 – 33:11 and that’s one of my my concerns when we

33:09 – 33:12 look at you know I’ve thrown up on the

33:11 – 33:15 screen

33:12 – 33:17 a slide from mom I just favorite movies

33:15 – 33:18 of all time embrace of the serpent

33:17 – 33:22 because I think it captures this

33:18 – 33:26 interplay between these two different

33:22 – 33:29 magicians the one magician who is the

33:26 – 33:30 evil colonist that comes and chops

33:29 – 33:33 people’s arms off when they don’t

33:30 – 33:36 produce enough rubber but he is truly a

33:33 – 33:40 magician and his ability to wield that

33:36 – 33:44 hatchet in this most unbelievably wicked

33:40 – 33:46 way is eventually in this movie we’re

33:44 – 33:49 not sure whether that conquers or

33:46 – 33:51 defeats the magic of the shaman who I

33:49 – 33:53 thought they did an awesome job of

33:51 – 33:55 portraying as being truly lost and truly

33:53 – 33:57 challenged by his beliefs because

33:55 – 33:59 everything he thought he knew about how

33:57 – 34:01 the world works has now been called into

33:59 – 34:03 question by these guys they just come in

34:01 – 34:05 with their fucking hatchets and just

34:03 – 34:07 chop people’s arms off but at the same

34:05 – 34:11 time were introduced to this shamanic

34:07 – 34:15 way of knowing in being in the world

34:11 – 34:17 that that pulls us apart in another way

34:15 – 34:20 and let me digress into a short story

34:17 – 34:26 because I had a fascinating interview

34:20 – 34:27 with a woman who approached me on to do

34:26 – 34:29 a skeptical show and you know that is

34:27 – 34:33 when people approach you and you’re

34:29 – 34:37 always like oh yeah fantastic fantastic

34:33 – 34:40 damn it Daniel I’ll change them so so

34:37 – 34:43 you know Jan is has a book store in

34:40 – 34:46 Seattle and this Russian guy comes and

34:43 – 34:48 says hey I’ve been working with these

34:46 – 34:50 people the old Shay people the original

34:48 – 34:56 shamans in this remotest of remote area

34:50 – 34:59 of Russia and here they are and I’d love

34:56 – 35:01 to do a talk does it talk and subsequent

34:59 – 35:06 to that for the next 20 years brings

35:01 – 35:08 over these shaman leaders mainly women

35:06 – 35:12 just so happens to be but one or two men

35:08 – 35:14 and they come and so you know the the

35:12 – 35:15 way I kind of titled that the way I

35:14 – 35:18 really kind of poked Jan and she’s

35:15 – 35:20 awesome awesome researcher and woman but

35:18 – 35:22 you know where’s your fucking iPhone

35:20 – 35:24 shaman you know where’s your fucking

35:22 – 35:26 iPhone and I thought her pushback was

35:24 – 35:28 just awesome

35:26 – 35:29 – and she’s like yeah you know that’s a

35:28 – 35:31 that’s a good point

35:29 – 35:33 so they they do not have that and they

35:31 – 35:35 like coming over to Washington and being

35:33 – 35:37 able to order Chinese food and have it

35:35 – 35:40 show up at the door they think oh yeah

35:37 – 35:41 absolutely fantastic she says but I

35:40 – 35:45 still struggle with understanding how

35:41 – 35:48 when we were in a locked room and inside

35:45 – 35:51 hiding from weather elements of

35:48 – 35:54 Washington they made the wind blow all

35:51 – 35:56 the papers in the room around in a big

35:54 – 35:59 circle or how we could go out in nature

35:56 – 36:02 and they could make animals come up to

35:59 – 36:06 us just like they were in a petting zoo

36:02 – 36:08 just out of the forest so how do we how

36:06 – 36:11 do we interpret that how do I’m really

36:08 – 36:16 glad you asked because my response is I

36:11 – 36:18 think better you were correct that in

36:16 – 36:20 you know amongst a Siberian shamanic

36:18 – 36:23 culture they do not have a government

36:20 – 36:27 surveillant device that causes cancer

36:23 – 36:29 it’s made suicide lave like that so and

36:27 – 36:31 they use these devices I’ll tell you

36:29 – 36:33 mine you can even story in a minute but

36:31 – 36:35 my I guess question back to the question

36:33 – 36:40 would be how come your iPhone can’t call

36:35 – 36:43 serious yet yeah but how come it can’t

36:40 – 36:45 so like this device contacts people how

36:43 – 36:47 far can it get and how many towers does

36:45 – 36:49 it need because I can talk to serious

36:47 – 36:53 not me personally but that would be the

36:49 – 36:57 pushback and so if you situate and this

36:53 – 37:01 coming back to the idea of what level we

36:57 – 37:04 do cross-cultural comparison on and if

37:01 – 37:07 we do it in a flow model Italy which is

37:04 – 37:11 why these sort of devices can be

37:07 – 37:14 joyously absorbed into the life ways of

37:11 – 37:17 say you know non-western culture because

37:14 – 37:19 if you approach your no honor this is a

37:17 – 37:21 thing that Western culture did as it’s

37:19 – 37:23 going along then at that level you can

37:21 – 37:25 look at them and I absolutely agree the

37:23 – 37:28 sort of technology share that would

37:25 – 37:30 happen prior to shall we say the

37:28 – 37:33 Industrial Revolution may bike arguably

37:30 – 37:34 prior to the rise of cities happen like

37:33 – 37:36 we have the archaeological urban so you

37:34 – 37:39 make a better bastard or you make a

37:36 – 37:41 better bowl like that sort of thing

37:39 – 37:44 do techniques like meditation move

37:41 – 37:47 because they’re they work better and so

37:44 – 37:49 my my father grew up in New Guinea and

37:47 – 37:51 my aunt is actually New Guinean and so

37:49 – 37:55 he kind of has an understanding of where

37:51 – 37:57 a good understanding of where different

37:55 – 37:60 things from a quote-unquote Western

37:57 – 38:01 culture can be useful and helpful in

37:60 – 38:03 non-western sense so every time we

38:01 – 38:06 growing up we’d go to the islands every

38:03 – 38:07 year because he missed it and we he’d

38:06 – 38:10 sort of we’d get to Sydney and he’d go

38:07 – 38:12 into like a tourist tat store and he’d

38:10 – 38:14 buy a whole bunch of like $5 like I

38:12 – 38:16 harvest rainy t-shirts and he’d take

38:14 – 38:18 their many take hats and you take thongs

38:16 – 38:20 and we go and visit different you know

38:18 – 38:21 outlying communities and whatever and

38:20 – 38:23 nothing like a weird Christian way like

38:21 – 38:25 we were there Holiday Inn let’s be clear

38:23 – 38:27 we’re not saving anything but it’s just

38:25 – 38:29 he knew that we are in their lives and

38:27 – 38:31 we bring things and they fucking love

38:29 – 38:33 them like we would come back a couple of

38:31 – 38:35 years later and they’re still wearing

38:33 – 38:37 the shirts because they don’t they don’t

38:35 – 38:39 have them they’re not in Sydney you know

38:37 – 38:41 they don’t have this stuff and it’s a

38:39 – 38:43 really good this is fin from a policy

38:41 – 38:46 perspective something that Brazil worked

38:43 – 38:48 out not now they’re in a quite bad way

38:46 – 38:50 politically but a few decades ago when

38:48 – 38:53 it was you trying to net navigate what

38:50 – 38:56 how far at what arm’s length

38:53 – 38:58 do you quote-unquote hold native

38:56 – 38:60 Brazilians living in the Amazon because

38:58 – 39:01 if they well how racist is it to keep

38:60 – 39:03 them in a pristine state where they’re

39:01 – 39:06 all there without shoes and in

39:03 – 39:09 loincloths in an area revolt with deadly

39:06 – 39:11 snakes saying God give me some juice and

39:09 – 39:14 some shoes would be great right now and

39:11 – 39:18 I think that is when we talk about

39:14 – 39:20 technology share and and and how I don’t

39:18 – 39:22 even like you were better but like how

39:20 – 39:25 ideas that have some utility across

39:22 – 39:29 culture move the iPhone is a good

39:25 – 39:31 example but so is meditation so is the

39:29 – 39:34 use of ayahuasca for contacting spirits

39:31 – 39:36 these are things they took totally but

39:34 – 39:37 let me let me jump

39:36 – 39:39 leapfrog this a little bit because what

39:37 – 39:43 I’m really going and I can’t usually

39:39 – 39:46 jump that far ahead with folks is I’m

39:43 – 39:52 worried about interested in concerned

39:46 – 39:54 with ET and et’s ability to marshal tech

39:52 – 39:56 analogy in this forgive the term

39:54 – 39:57 extended consciousness realm but I got

39:56 – 39:59 to keep using it because people know

39:57 – 40:01 what it means as opposed to UFOs

39:59 – 40:04 diverses aerial phenomena or whatever

40:01 – 40:08 they’re going to call it so when we when

40:04 – 40:10 we hear what et is doing in terms of

40:08 – 40:13 screen memory in terms of philip

40:10 – 40:18 telepathic communication in terms of

40:13 – 40:21 long-term surveillance and potentially

40:18 – 40:24 counterfeited spiritual experiences

40:21 – 40:26 where people come back and say oh I’ve

40:24 – 40:28 had this incredible spiritual awakening

40:26 – 40:30 I’ve had this healing and another person

40:28 – 40:33 comes back goes really all’s I did is I

40:30 – 40:36 fucked by a reptilian you know it’s like

40:33 – 40:40 well where is the spiritual transfer can

40:36 – 40:45 be I guess but so when I look at that

40:40 – 40:48 that makes me look at the shamanic noble

40:45 – 40:50 savage kind of thing halo that we can do

40:48 – 40:53 that isn’t like you said arms-length

40:50 – 40:56 kind of thing might not be the right

40:53 – 40:59 approach either so I just wonder how

40:56 – 41:02 we’re supposed to figure that shit out

40:59 – 41:05 and I’m not worried about being racist

41:02 – 41:08 and I’m not worrying about fair I’m just

41:05 – 41:12 worrying about trying to understand it

41:08 – 41:14 in that favoring one over another in a

41:12 – 41:17 way that is going to cloud my ability to

41:14 – 41:20 interpret what might really be going on

41:17 – 41:24 and how much of this magic thing might

41:20 – 41:26 be linked to a technology that we don’t

41:24 – 41:29 fully understand and when we do

41:26 – 41:33 understand it you will have an app to

41:29 – 41:36 talk to the Syria well I I don’t so so

41:33 – 41:37 many things there that I think we

41:36 – 41:39 actually need to pivot more to there

41:37 – 41:41 understand we start here instead because

41:39 – 41:44 I was just up at a conference speaking

41:41 – 41:46 about UFOs and contactees and talking to

41:44 – 41:48 the Pleiadians and all that really kind

41:46 – 41:49 of like boomer stuff and I gave a

41:48 – 41:51 presentation called whether for the

41:49 – 41:53 aliens but I’ll tell you present Asian

41:51 – 41:55 was what called what if we’re the aliens

41:53 – 41:58 and it’s advanced for me to talk right

41:55 – 42:00 but I’ll tell you that I haven’t you

41:58 – 42:02 know spoken to a number of demons they

42:00 – 42:03 will fade out say yeah which are like

42:02 – 42:05 people like they think they’re talking

42:03 – 42:08 to the

42:05 – 42:11 like Federation that’s us motherfucker

42:08 – 42:14 now the argument then is in fact for

42:11 – 42:16 more magic not less because where’s your

42:14 – 42:19 fucking iPhone is the opposite when you

42:16 – 42:22 go to cultures that never lost this

42:19 – 42:24 weary extra-dimensional diplomacy

42:22 – 42:27 component with the majority of shamanic

42:24 – 42:30 practice isn’t happy healing stuff it

42:27 – 42:32 was keeping bad shit away from the

42:30 – 42:36 fucking village the techniques for

42:32 – 42:39 navigating the fact that the the spirit

42:36 – 42:41 world isn’t sometimes deceptive but it

42:39 – 42:43 is certainly never presented as as

42:41 – 42:45 factual like it what you see is never

42:43 – 42:48 what you get in the spirit world and you

42:45 – 42:50 have cultures that have millennia of

42:48 – 42:53 experience of navigating that and we

42:50 – 42:55 have an iPhone so I would argue that in

42:53 – 42:57 fact we need more of it rather than less

42:55 – 42:60 and the notion that any kind of contact

42:57 – 43:01 experience is automatically a good one

42:60 – 43:04 like oh look at me and I’ve had a

43:01 – 43:08 spiritual experience is a very Western

43:04 – 43:10 post Christian idea right visited by an

43:08 – 43:12 angel or whatever like that kind of

43:10 – 43:15 contact is quite Neoplatonic

43:12 – 43:17 the idea that oh look if something

43:15 – 43:20 happened to me I’m interacting with the

43:17 – 43:23 star but you won’t find that level of

43:20 – 43:26 optimism you will find a weariness and

43:23 – 43:30 and a hard-won cynicism in cultures that

43:26 – 43:32 just know better from more experience of

43:30 – 43:33 the spirit world and their like it might

43:32 – 43:38 be that it might be something else and

43:33 – 43:40 magic is frankly better at and I can

43:38 – 43:44 even shrink that down to Western magic

43:40 – 43:46 is better at navigating the the reality

43:44 – 43:49 that this is a deceptive and enigmatic

43:46 – 43:51 process because it has those fail-safes

43:49 – 43:54 built into it and we live in it within

43:51 – 43:56 animistic cultures when you say once we

43:54 – 43:58 learn fully what magic is about you

43:56 – 44:01 never will that you kind of have an open

43:58 – 44:04 cosmology that is hyper pragmatic

44:01 – 44:06 because you admit and understand that

44:04 – 44:08 you will never fully know what’s going

44:06 – 44:10 on but you nevertheless have to be in

44:08 – 44:12 the world and interact so like what

44:10 – 44:15 techniques what what ways of being in

44:12 – 44:17 the world kind of work in this sort of

44:15 – 44:18 getting along together way so I would oh

44:17 – 44:19 that’s all

44:18 – 44:21 problems right I mean you will

44:19 – 44:25 acknowledge it that is with the same

44:21 – 44:29 problems that you’re trying to kind of

44:25 – 44:31 get past or overcome right so no I would

44:29 – 44:33 disagree I would because you want you

44:31 – 44:36 item is amiss and ontology I’m looking

44:33 – 44:37 for an epistemology so I know that this

44:36 – 44:39 the the rise of magic is that what

44:37 – 44:42 irritated you over the last year and I’m

44:39 – 44:44 sorry to bring a bad news that it still

44:42 – 44:46 has much further to run than Dean Radin

44:44 – 44:48 but what I’m looking for is an

44:46 – 44:50 epistemology and you’re worried that it

44:48 – 44:54 will replace your ontology you’re

44:50 – 44:59 worried not totally so I I fully agree

44:54 – 45:02 with the point about you know more is

44:59 – 45:06 better in this case right so a more

45:02 – 45:10 include more expansive understanding of

45:06 – 45:12 those modalities for interacting with

45:10 – 45:14 but you know we’re always gonna be

45:12 – 45:16 struggling with words in this discussion

45:14 – 45:17 this kind of inside baseball level three

45:16 – 45:19 discussion because as soon as you start

45:17 – 45:21 talking about spirits we don’t know what

45:19 – 45:23 the fucking spirit is no more than we

45:21 – 45:25 know what consciousness is it’s all part

45:23 – 45:28 of the same blob that we’re pulling

45:25 – 45:30 apart but here I would try and circle

45:28 – 45:32 this back to my point because I’m really

45:30 – 45:35 interested in getting your your insight

45:32 – 45:37 on this because it’s fantastic but did

45:35 – 45:39 you listen to our friend Greg Carl woods

45:37 – 45:42 excellent interview with whitley

45:39 – 45:44 strieber if it was in the last month or

45:42 – 45:45 so because I’ve been traveling him in

45:44 – 45:47 Fame which phase I’m behind in

45:45 – 45:49 everything I’m afraid so I hadn’t I

45:47 – 45:51 don’t know how far back it was but it

45:49 – 45:53 was it was quite extraordinary and it

45:51 – 45:56 was extraordinary particularly at this

45:53 – 45:59 one moment when Whitley’s talking about

45:56 – 46:02 being I don’t want to say abducted cuz

45:59 – 46:05 he wasn’t he was voluntarily admitted by

46:02 – 46:09 his parents in this special youth

46:05 – 46:11 program and at an Air Force Base in San

46:09 – 46:15 Antonio where these kids were subjected

46:11 – 46:18 to just a horrible kind of a skinner

46:15 – 46:20 cage you know you walk in to the to the

46:18 – 46:23 facility and these kids did and just to

46:20 – 46:24 digress slightly streamer says I can

46:23 – 46:27 hardly believe that this happened except

46:24 – 46:28 I found two other boys who were with me

46:27 – 46:30 and one boy who

46:28 – 46:32 wasn’t because his parents when they

46:30 – 46:34 came and told them about the special

46:32 – 46:37 program for gifted children in the

46:34 – 46:38 Skinner box as in BF Skinner said get

46:37 – 46:39 the hell away from my house and don’t

46:38 – 46:41 come back

46:39 – 46:44 but his parents weren’t so inclined or

46:41 – 46:46 his parents were part of it whatever

46:44 – 46:49 Sousa thinking he was dressed up in his

46:46 – 46:51 Sunday best every week in order to go to

46:49 – 46:53 this camp when we first goes in on the

46:51 – 46:55 Air Force Base there’s these kids locked

46:53 – 46:57 in these little cages and they said

46:55 – 46:60 that’s what happens to children who tell

46:57 – 47:03 their parents what happens and it turns

46:60 – 47:04 out that the purpose of this exercise as

47:03 – 47:08 near as he could tell it I should say

47:04 – 47:12 exercise this torture this MKULTRA

47:08 – 47:15 program is to break these people open to

47:12 – 47:18 break these souls open in order to

47:15 – 47:21 access this extended consciousness realm

47:18 – 47:23 and once we do this investigation like

47:21 – 47:26 you and I have we say totally

47:23 – 47:28 understandable I mean in the shamanic

47:26 – 47:30 traditions many of them have similar

47:28 – 47:35 kind of it’s not not that they’re not

47:30 – 47:38 culturally understood to be torturous

47:35 – 47:40 they’re understood to be rites of

47:38 – 47:41 passage whether it’s a sweat lodge or

47:40 – 47:43 whether it’s some other kind of

47:41 – 47:44 experience of being stung by bees but

47:43 – 47:46 that would be kind of in a different

47:44 – 47:51 thing but anyways the point is the same

47:46 – 47:52 that is the technology that I guess I’m

47:51 – 47:54 talking about

47:52 – 47:58 because certainly those folks in the Air

47:54 – 48:02 Force the MKULTRA three-letter agency

47:58 – 48:06 they weren’t doing this from a shamanic

48:02 – 48:08 or a magic perspective they were doing

48:06 – 48:11 it as near as we can tell is let’s

48:08 – 48:14 figure out how the fucking aliens do it

48:11 – 48:15 and do it the same way because what I

48:14 – 48:18 always point to is you know my friend

48:15 – 48:21 grant Cameron and the famous will Burt

48:18 – 48:24 Smith we’re right there it’s written

48:21 – 48:26 down we’ve gone to the US we found that

48:24 – 48:28 the UFOs are real and the the mental

48:26 – 48:31 component of it is something they’re

48:28 – 48:33 very very interested in and this fits in

48:31 – 48:36 that timeframe let’s see if we can break

48:33 – 48:38 people open in order so that we might

48:36 – 48:41 perfect this technology and that’s what

48:38 – 48:43 intrigues me Gordon is that

48:41 – 48:47 what if there really is a technology

48:43 – 48:50 component to this and if you look

48:47 – 48:52 stretched technology to mean it where we

48:50 – 48:56 they can get to some level and in that

48:52 – 48:59 respect maybe we would look at the

48:56 – 49:02 shamanic and the magic traditions that

48:59 – 49:05 you’re talking about just in a different

49:02 – 49:08 perspective not worse better but you

49:05 – 49:10 know kind of the different perspective

49:08 – 49:13 in terms of how developed they are and

49:10 – 49:17 how efficacious they are at the desired

49:13 – 49:18 result I would suspect that that again

49:17 – 49:20 is a definitional challenge like you

49:18 – 49:21 kind of landed on it towards the end

49:20 – 49:23 there where it’s like well how do you

49:21 – 49:24 find technology and if you want to do

49:23 – 49:27 that comparison you kind of have to go

49:24 – 49:29 techne they go back to the ancient Greek

49:27 – 49:34 and and I like to use words like

49:29 – 49:35 cultural complexity instead because it

49:34 – 49:37 is not obvious to me although it’s

49:35 – 49:40 something entirely possible firstly all

49:37 – 49:42 that Whitley stuff 100% like sure I’d

49:40 – 49:46 like that’s that’s one of the things

49:42 – 49:48 that is alarming I would just say before

49:46 – 49:52 we talk about the technology thing if we

49:48 – 49:55 are comparing the p.m. or for projects

49:52 – 49:57 there of trying to weaponize these

49:55 – 49:60 capacities of these children that is

49:57 – 50:01 kind of trying to break into the spirit

49:60 – 50:04 world whereas typically and the word

50:01 – 50:05 shaman is is culturally bound we all

50:04 – 50:08 know that right now we’re talking about

50:05 – 50:10 what you will find in cultures that have

50:08 – 50:12 this as a function within it is that the

50:10 – 50:14 spirits choose them so you don’t you

50:12 – 50:16 don’t torture or the children in a tribe

50:14 – 50:18 you find the ones that the spirit of

50:16 – 50:21 picked and no unfortunately for you my

50:18 – 50:23 little son or daughter your lung can

50:21 – 50:28 have a very good life you get to be the

50:23 – 50:29 shaman and that’s that truly or horrible

50:28 – 50:32 and god only knows what they found with

50:29 – 50:34 these these projects but it’s it’s kind

50:32 – 50:36 of a it’s a military assault on the

50:34 – 50:39 spirit world so if we want to kind of

50:36 – 50:43 compare these two that’s that’s worth

50:39 – 50:45 thinking with as to what what I think

50:43 – 50:46 you’re getting at is has it already

50:45 – 50:50 happened

50:46 – 50:54 or will we one day somewhere in an

50:50 – 50:54 underground base have a device or

50:54 – 50:59 a machine that can bodily move you into

50:57 – 51:01 the spirit world or teleport you via you

50:59 – 51:03 know spirit tunnels whatever you want to

51:01 – 51:07 call them to like other points in the

51:03 – 51:10 galaxy can will a will the underground

51:07 – 51:13 base’s have a military version of some

51:10 – 51:14 of the capacities we find in cultures

51:13 – 51:16 that never lost magic

51:14 – 51:17 well then because that’s one question

51:16 – 51:18 but here’s the second question that I

51:17 – 51:20 want you to answer at the same time I

51:18 – 51:23 want to use your term cultural

51:20 – 51:27 complexity and I want to suggest is it

51:23 – 51:30 possible that et has a cultural

51:27 – 51:33 complexity that includes a mastery of

51:30 – 51:36 some of this stuff this extended

51:33 – 51:39 consciousness stuff that makes our

51:36 – 51:43 understanding of shamanic cultures as

51:39 – 51:46 well as magic traditions look like that

51:43 – 51:49 photo that I have up on the screen of

51:46 – 51:52 the nearly naked

51:49 – 51:54 Amazonian people who we admire in some

51:52 – 51:57 respects but in other ways go you know

51:54 – 52:00 here’s your compass go fight your way to

51:57 – 52:02 go to their River and there’s a boat on

52:00 – 52:06 there with a motor in it it’s a lot

52:02 – 52:10 easier I think what what happens is you

52:06 – 52:12 kind of get to that end point of where

52:10 – 52:13 does technology so one of the other

52:12 – 52:16 things Whitley said which I liked is

52:13 – 52:18 that advanced civilizations elsewhere in

52:16 – 52:21 the galaxy have presumably developed a

52:18 – 52:24 way to maintain continuous communication

52:21 – 52:26 after death so that the death toll and

52:24 – 52:28 we would have been close honestly I

52:26 – 52:29 think if we if spiritualism in the

52:28 – 52:31 mid-1800s had gone in a different

52:29 – 52:34 direction from a policy perspective we

52:31 – 52:36 may well have been there and that rather

52:34 – 52:38 changes it’s not even a technological

52:36 – 52:39 solve at that point what that means is

52:38 – 52:41 that you are you are fully you’re

52:39 – 52:44 operating in the full universe rather

52:41 – 52:45 than the component of it that you can

52:44 – 52:48 perceive while you’re still in a meat

52:45 – 52:51 suit right and so when you talk about a

52:48 – 52:53 technology that relies on shall we say

52:51 – 52:54 like the physics of magic or the fact

52:53 – 52:58 that the universe is magic and a

52:54 – 52:59 technology built on that you’re still in

52:58 – 53:01 a universe that’s magic so you kind of

52:59 – 53:02 get to this end point we go okay so a

53:01 – 53:04 civilization that can maintain

53:02 – 53:06 continuous communication beyond death

53:04 – 53:08 and and can do instantaneous

53:06 – 53:11 interplanetary transport and so on

53:08 – 53:16 those things can only work because the

53:11 – 53:17 universe is magical is you know I’m

53:16 – 53:18 using that term but you know what I mean

53:17 – 53:21 like we live in any animate whether it’s

53:18 – 53:23 consciousness universe so yes and no

53:21 – 53:24 what I would say back and I know this

53:23 – 53:26 has happened to you as well but in

53:24 – 53:28 certainly happen to me having on my

53:26 – 53:30 travels to various like you know sacred

53:28 – 53:33 sites and weird places and being amongst

53:30 – 53:36 like tribal fetish objects and all this

53:33 – 53:39 kind of stuff is that a rock can do that

53:36 – 53:41 if you go to say Marie Laveau’s to in

53:39 – 53:42 New Orleans as you walk up to it your

53:41 – 53:45 blood pressure drops and it’s a tomb

53:42 – 53:48 it’s just it’s from that level of

53:45 – 53:50 reality that the technology can be built

53:48 – 53:52 and who’s to say it has it remember

53:50 – 53:55 you’ve had guests on that can astral

53:52 – 53:59 travel like so who’s to say it hasn’t I

53:55 – 54:02 agree with you that you just end up with

53:59 – 54:04 this kind of infinite or vanishing point

54:02 – 54:06 where we might do it on a mechanistic

54:04 – 54:08 basis or we might do it on an animistic

54:06 – 54:11 basis but you’ll still end up at this

54:08 – 54:14 point the realization that you are in an

54:11 – 54:18 animate magic all consciousness universe

54:14 – 54:20 whatever will will occur and that’s kind

54:18 – 54:21 of where I’m like I’m not sure are you

54:20 – 54:24 yeah

54:21 – 54:27 and are there entities in the galaxy

54:24 – 54:30 that have consciousness ray guns for

54:27 – 54:33 whatever I don’t know you know an

54:30 – 54:35 example do they have do they have red

54:33 – 54:38 iPhone that calls the devil at it like

54:35 – 54:41 yeah probably because you know the the

54:38 – 54:42 UFO contact experience especially when

54:41 – 54:44 you get to things like screen memory and

54:42 – 54:46 so on is a little alarming it’s it’s

54:44 – 54:49 there’s no other question you know I

54:46 – 54:52 think that’s worth thinking with you

54:49 – 54:53 know I could hammer on this on and on

54:52 – 54:55 that you’ve brought up so many great

54:53 – 54:57 points I just think we’re gonna lose

54:55 – 54:59 ourselves and the complexity of it but

54:57 – 55:03 awesome kind of discussion let’s bring

54:59 – 55:05 it back to dr. demian yeah maybe more of

55:03 – 55:07 a down-to-earth kind of discussion that

55:05 – 55:09 you and I have had offline and we’ll

55:07 – 55:13 share as much as you feel comfortable

55:09 – 55:15 with kind of online here but we both

55:13 – 55:17 interviewed dr. Dean Radin you did an

55:15 – 55:20 excellent interview with and then I kind

55:17 – 55:22 of was a little bit meaner to him but

55:20 – 55:24 still I appreciate it very much

55:22 – 55:26 and coming on and if I was mean to him

55:24 – 55:29 if I’m saying I was mean to him it’s

55:26 – 55:32 because the vanishing point that you’re

55:29 – 55:35 talking about I think has to be on the

55:32 – 55:38 forefront of our mind as we walk down

55:35 – 55:40 this this path the vanishing point being

55:38 – 55:44 that we’re going to reach hyperspace

55:40 – 55:47 when we realized that the shaman is no

55:44 – 55:50 different than the et in terms of their

55:47 – 55:52 ability to manipulate the extended

55:50 – 55:56 consciousness realm because it all

55:52 – 55:60 reaches some higher dimension that then

55:56 – 56:02 totally escapes what we can is beyond

55:60 – 56:04 our understanding and that’s where the

56:02 – 56:08 action probably really begins and I just

56:04 – 56:11 wonder as awesome as Dean is and as

56:08 – 56:14 important as his work is can he really

56:11 – 56:15 catch up to there given you know when

56:14 – 56:18 you talk to Dean he says you know to be

56:15 – 56:20 honest with you and I so appreciate his

56:18 – 56:23 honesty is I didn’t even think of the

56:20 – 56:26 term spirit seriously until a year ago

56:23 – 56:30 and if he is on the Vanguard and for

56:26 – 56:32 God’s sakes he is on the Vanguard but if

56:30 – 56:35 he is on the if he is on the edge of

56:32 – 56:38 this does science really has science in

56:35 – 56:41 this sense have a chance of catching up

56:38 – 56:43 um this is where maybe I would swap that

56:41 – 56:45 out again to just be a bit more precise

56:43 – 56:47 and say empiricism and I think Dean has

56:45 – 56:50 got this right like empiricism is

56:47 – 56:53 fascinating because my definition of it

56:50 – 56:55 and it’s a good one philosophically is

56:53 – 56:58 that empiricism is the notion that

56:55 – 57:00 nothing exists outside of sense data and

56:58 – 57:02 and scientific results are a subset of

57:00 – 57:04 sense data because you perceive the

57:02 – 57:09 results right and it invalidates itself

57:04 – 57:10 as a as a full explanation for the

57:09 – 57:13 universe because the statement that

57:10 – 57:15 nothing exists beyond sense data is a

57:13 – 57:17 statement you make without the sense

57:15 – 57:18 data to support it you are making a

57:17 – 57:21 statement about the universe that

57:18 – 57:23 nothing exists that I can’t perceive now

57:21 – 57:26 that but once you realize that

57:23 – 57:28 empiricism becomes exceptionally useful

57:26 – 57:30 because you’ve made it the right size

57:28 – 57:32 and this is how we can do things like

57:30 – 57:36 archeology and whatever and I think Dean

57:32 – 57:40 is absolutely nailed it by the in

57:36 – 57:45 last book by taking the empirical

57:40 – 57:47 exploration of magic and hanumant

57:45 – 57:52 universe the reality of say whatever you

57:47 – 57:55 want to as far as it can and I think he

57:52 – 57:57 was really good with us both at holding

57:55 – 57:59 the line I think he’s like this is

57:57 – 58:01 literally all we can get here but this

57:59 – 58:03 is all that this can show us that

58:01 – 58:06 doesn’t mean that’s all is there in the

58:03 – 58:08 world so I really like the Dean and

58:06 – 58:10 maybe it’s his kind of cosmic function

58:08 – 58:12 in the world I really like the Dean

58:10 – 58:14 holds that light because like I asked if

58:12 – 58:17 it’s true it’s true for especially this

58:14 – 58:20 is real skeptical stuff right like it’s

58:17 – 58:22 true that the data cannot I mean to our

58:20 – 58:25 satisfaction sure can i definitively

58:22 – 58:27 land on the existence of an afterlife or

58:25 – 58:30 spirits or anything that stuff because

58:27 – 58:32 you can’t perceive it because it this is

58:30 – 58:33 how big empiricism is it’s one circle

58:32 – 58:36 and this stuff is outside of it and

58:33 – 58:39 whilst we all agree like the data uproot

58:36 – 58:42 like it’s just that we can’t use this

58:39 – 58:44 one technique to conclusively land on it

58:42 – 58:45 doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist it means

58:44 – 58:47 like it in fact it’s a really good

58:45 – 58:49 argument like empiricism is completely

58:47 – 58:51 filled up with like this this stuff is

58:49 – 58:54 real but we need other techniques we

58:51 – 58:56 need other epistemology is hence why I’m

58:54 – 58:59 interested in that rather than ontology

58:56 – 59:01 to be able to go ok well then where do

58:59 – 59:04 we what other means of truth validation

59:01 – 59:07 exists for us outside of empiricism and

59:04 – 59:09 so I loved both those interviews and

59:07 – 59:12 he’s to be congratulated because we all

59:09 – 59:14 agree like it’s it’s a pretty good case

59:12 – 59:16 that you know the spirit world exists

59:14 – 59:20 and life continues after death but you

59:16 – 59:22 cannot get to it with an empirical model

59:20 – 59:24 conclusively you can get to something is

59:22 – 59:26 going on and it was so good of him to

59:24 – 59:29 kind of go no I will not be drawn

59:26 – 59:31 outside of it and I’m really happy he

59:29 – 59:35 held that line and it leaves us to kind

59:31 – 59:39 of blur though in the way which is where

59:35 – 59:43 we belong we want you on that wall we

59:39 – 59:46 need you on that wall but it’s like it’s

59:43 – 59:48 I mean it’s so good he’s just got such

59:46 – 59:49 the mind and the experience to go like I

59:48 – 59:51 can’t you

59:49 – 59:54 cannot design an experiment to

59:51 – 59:59 objectively demonstrate empirically you

59:54 – 60:03 can’t design with you I’m with you and

59:59 – 60:07 I’m totally 100% supportive of Abdeen I

60:03 – 60:09 love what you said about the magical

60:07 – 60:12 shrinking machine and that is the most

60:09 – 60:15 beautiful metaphor that I’ve heard my

60:12 – 60:16 problem is when I really step back and

60:15 – 60:21 want to be honest and not be so nice is

60:16 – 60:25 that you’ve now shrunk it down to where

60:21 – 60:28 it isn’t that meaningful or important

60:25 – 60:31 science has now obsoleted itself in

60:28 – 60:33 terms of a larger investigation of who

60:31 – 60:35 are we why are we here and you’ve just

60:33 – 60:39 relegated it to us a part of it

60:35 – 60:42 it can help but the shrinking machine

60:39 – 60:45 you know can be a problem and it’s very

60:42 – 60:47 specific about empiricism so empiricism

60:45 – 60:50 isn’t science these are two different

60:47 – 60:54 things science relies on empiricism

60:50 – 60:58 currently exclusively in which as a way

60:54 – 61:01 to as its exclusive epistemology it

60:58 – 61:04 relies on empiricism it doesn’t need to

61:01 – 61:08 and and this is something that Western

61:04 – 61:09 philosophy which is hidden mists but one

61:08 – 61:10 of the things and comes back to what

61:09 – 61:12 we’re talking about there are other

61:10 – 61:13 forms of proof that we have had

61:12 – 61:15 available to us for twenty five hundred

61:13 – 61:17 years we’ve had mathematical proofs

61:15 – 61:20 we’ve had logical proofs we have had for

61:17 – 61:22 whatever they’re worth hold on hold on I

61:20 – 61:25 mean if Dean has helped us make any

61:22 – 61:28 change at all it’s that the shade

61:25 – 61:31 casting that’s been done on empiricism

61:28 – 61:34 is now flipped and what we can say now

61:31 – 61:35 is empiricism really is the only game in

61:34 – 61:38 town because all those other things

61:35 – 61:40 you’re talking about aren’t real we

61:38 – 61:43 can’t really measure things

61:40 – 61:46 no but that’s really we can’t really do

61:43 – 61:48 mathematics we really can’t because it’s

61:46 – 61:50 all an abstraction of something that we

61:48 – 61:53 don’t know what it really is the only

61:50 – 61:56 game so town is in Paris the only game

61:53 – 61:58 is it’s not you’re using empiricism

61:56 – 62:01 which is an epistemology as an ontology

61:58 – 62:02 again and that’s the error so there is

62:01 – 62:04 nothing and this

62:02 – 62:08 the kind of realization that happens

62:04 – 62:10 across disciplines nothing stops there

62:08 – 62:13 is nothing that can prevent you from

62:10 – 62:16 doing that baseline philosophical work

62:13 – 62:19 of what is reality empiricism is the

62:16 – 62:21 next level down and I don’t think it

62:19 – 62:24 makes it I don’t think it diminishes it

62:21 – 62:26 I think it restores it and makes it

62:24 – 62:28 useful again so that it’s not designed

62:26 – 62:30 to be an ontology it’s designed to be an

62:28 – 62:33 epistemology and we keep using it as an

62:30 – 62:35 ontology and if you if you just let it

62:33 – 62:37 be what it is again yes you have to do

62:35 – 62:40 the hard work of going like well that’s

62:37 – 62:42 one method of truth validation but

62:40 – 62:44 nevertheless Here I am as an organism or

62:42 – 62:46 consciousness or whatever in a universe

62:44 – 62:47 that has that capacity what can I learn

62:46 – 62:49 about and this is the Western

62:47 – 62:52 philosophical journey it’s the eastern

62:49 – 62:54 one – in many respects is you nothing

62:52 – 62:57 can stop you there is no like oh look

62:54 – 63:02 done and I have empirically generated

62:57 – 63:04 data that solves a crucial thing that

63:02 – 63:07 every human has to do which is those

63:04 – 63:10 foundational philosophical principles or

63:07 – 63:12 work nothing prevents that and

63:10 – 63:15 empiricism turning it back into an

63:12 – 63:18 epistemology is tremendously useful on

63:15 – 63:19 that personal quest to do so so I don’t

63:18 – 63:22 think I think it’s the opposite I think

63:19 – 63:24 it’s made it better rather than worse to

63:22 – 63:28 make it to just let it be what it was

63:24 – 63:30 initially yeah maybe I’ll move on and

63:28 – 63:32 let it go and the next time we talk I’ll

63:30 – 63:35 I’ll ask you to finish that thought

63:32 – 63:39 about what ontology x’ what maps of the

63:35 – 63:41 territory are really something that we

63:39 – 63:43 can that we can put up on the wall and

63:41 – 63:45 be proud of because I don’t think I

63:43 – 63:47 don’t think they exist but but I don’t

63:45 – 63:49 think any of those other alternative

63:47 – 63:55 ontology is really kind of get a say but

63:49 – 63:59 I shut up and move on so here’s a fun

63:55 – 64:02 one another chance to poke the bear or

63:59 – 64:04 poke the guest as it is in this case but

64:02 – 64:07 I think the data versus interpretation

64:04 – 64:10 thing with regard to social engineering

64:07 – 64:13 what some people call conspiracy which

64:10 – 64:15 is if there ever was a social

64:13 – 64:16 engineering of a term it’s the social

64:15 – 64:19 engineering of

64:16 – 64:22 conspiracy that’s conspiracy as opposed

64:19 – 64:24 to what it really is is 90 percent of

64:22 – 64:26 the time a social engineering project by

64:24 – 64:29 someone by a government either our

64:26 – 64:31 government or a foreign government or a

64:29 – 64:34 corporation or a shadow government or

64:31 – 64:36 somebody I think there’s this data

64:34 – 64:39 versus interpretation thing going on

64:36 – 64:41 people get tired of me talking about the

64:39 – 64:43 Gloria Steinem example but I love it

64:41 – 64:45 because still a lot of people it’s

64:43 – 64:48 something we can touch and we can go and

64:45 – 64:49 actually put our finger on it’s one of

64:48 – 64:52 the few times that one of the players

64:49 – 64:54 actually stands out is stupid enough to

64:52 – 64:57 stand outside and go well yeah I really

64:54 – 65:00 was a player in a social engineering

64:57 – 65:04 project and then we find out that she

65:00 – 65:09 not only was but still is so here’s my

65:04 – 65:15 poke at you to what extent is the

65:09 – 65:19 current kind of neoliberal quasi proto

65:15 – 65:21 pseudo progressive divide a social

65:19 – 65:24 engineering project because it sure as

65:21 – 65:27 hell looks like one to me it looks like

65:24 – 65:29 another version I mean it took me seven

65:27 – 65:31 or eight years into skeptiko to realize

65:29 – 65:34 that biological robot in a meaningless

65:31 – 65:37 universe is not just a bunch of dumb

65:34 – 65:42 guys who haven’t figured out an obvious

65:37 – 65:44 kind of observation it is somehow social

65:42 – 65:46 engineering useful idiot you know isn’t

65:44 – 65:48 it better if we send things down this

65:46 – 65:51 path kind of thing and I always like the

65:48 – 65:54 example you give of well look at the

65:51 – 65:57 frontier science done in the darkest

65:54 – 65:60 corners of those agencies that were way

65:57 – 66:02 past the materialistic model yeah a long

65:60 – 66:05 time ago and I wonder if the same thing

66:02 – 66:09 isn’t going on here so when we see these

66:05 – 66:13 social movements it just to me smacks of

66:09 – 66:17 social engineering what thank you Gordon

66:13 – 66:19 I think some of it yes I think a lot of

66:17 – 66:23 it is inertia so I think we are still in

66:19 – 66:26 the after-effects of either successful

66:23 – 66:29 or abandoned 20th century technocratic

66:26 – 66:33 engineering ones so if you look at FEM

66:29 – 66:36 and I I don’t know quite what Steinem

66:33 – 66:39 was for for the CIA

66:36 – 66:42 other than surveillance but I rather

66:39 – 66:43 suspect it has to do I think they are

66:42 – 66:47 interested in whether feminism could be

66:43 – 66:49 used to reduce population I think I

66:47 – 66:50 think that might have been it because if

66:49 – 66:52 you look at the kind of 20th century

66:50 – 66:55 technocratic project one of the things

66:52 – 66:58 they were concerned about and it’s it’s

66:55 – 66:59 always the case I saw it like a lot of

66:58 – 67:01 things are concerned about is

66:59 – 67:05 overpopulation so I’m not but here we

67:01 – 67:08 are in a in the inertia of a whole bunch

67:05 – 67:12 of different ups and projects from

67:08 – 67:14 Russian meddling to feminism to to all

67:12 – 67:16 the rest of it and we’re kind of in this

67:14 – 67:17 car crash inevitable conclusion of what

67:16 – 67:19 happens because there was so much

67:17 – 67:21 inertia behind them even if they’re not

67:19 – 67:23 running now we’re still caught in the

67:21 – 67:25 tumble of it they’re also as far as I

67:23 – 67:29 can tell looking the world in the last

67:25 – 67:32 few years there are more people private

67:29 – 67:35 entities billionaires whatever you want

67:32 – 67:37 playing a game that used to pretty much

67:35 – 67:38 have one player at least in the West

67:37 – 67:40 like during the Cold War we had one

67:38 – 67:42 player and whether it was because the

67:40 – 67:45 anglo-american alliance whatever you

67:42 – 67:47 want to call it and had the CIA and all

67:45 – 67:49 the rest of it well more or less aligned

67:47 – 67:51 in what they wanted to achieve for the

67:49 – 67:55 West in the 20th century or not if you

67:51 – 67:58 look at it now what isn’t enough so I

67:55 – 68:03 think it’s really we’re in a kind of car

67:58 – 68:05 crash of current ups and the inertia of

68:03 – 68:08 historic ones and I think that’s just

68:05 – 68:10 where we are and it’s a mess you know

68:08 – 68:15 one thing I’d kind of throw out there is

68:10 – 68:18 an explanation of these ops number one I

68:15 – 68:20 always fall back on the reactive versus

68:18 – 68:23 proactive thing which is I think the

68:20 – 68:26 first agenda is hey we have to have a

68:23 – 68:29 foot in the door we have to have a stake

68:26 – 68:33 in that game so yeah you go and you

68:29 – 68:35 co-opt or disrupt or infiltrate feminism

68:33 – 68:37 if for no other reason then we’ll figure

68:35 – 68:38 out what the fuck to do with it later

68:37 – 68:41 let’s just make sure we have

68:38 – 68:43 we can play in that game and that’s the

68:41 – 68:43 British Empire model that’s absolutely

68:43 – 68:45 it

68:43 – 68:49 yeah yeah and I think that’s that’s

68:45 – 68:52 smart but I think if we were gonna if I

68:49 – 68:55 was going to venture a guess on what the

68:52 – 68:59 goal is I think the first goal always

68:55 – 69:01 since constantine has been control sure

68:59 – 69:06 because that’s our job is is to control

69:01 – 69:09 and if we can pacify disrupt in in this

69:06 – 69:12 case when you look at feminism if we can

69:09 – 69:15 atomized the family if we can isolate

69:12 – 69:18 make people more alone afraid less

69:15 – 69:21 connected then we’re always better off

69:18 – 69:23 in terms of from a control standpoint

69:21 – 69:27 yeah it’s easier to control the sheep in

69:23 – 69:29 that way than it is in any other way and

69:27 – 69:31 that’s my concern with like when I look

69:29 – 69:33 at like I have up there the first

69:31 – 69:35 transgender Muslim kind of thing because

69:33 – 69:38 some of these things are actually

69:35 – 69:40 bordering on the kind of comical and

69:38 – 69:45 it’s the same thing in my opinion is

69:40 – 69:49 like is there an issue in terms of

69:45 – 69:51 sexuality in terms of absolutely is

69:49 – 69:55 there an issue in terms of

69:51 – 69:57 transgenderism and and rights and

69:55 – 69:59 certain discretion certainly

69:57 – 70:02 discrimination that’s obvious

69:59 – 70:06 absolutely is there an agenda that keeps

70:02 – 70:08 cropping up in terms of trans now finish

70:06 – 70:12 that with whatever you want

70:08 – 70:16 you know transhumanism trans culture ISM

70:12 – 70:20 trans-atlantic globalization I mean I

70:16 – 70:23 think there’s a lot of things at play

70:20 – 70:25 there in terms of an agenda that seems

70:23 – 70:27 to be playing out in a bunch of

70:25 – 70:30 different ways in this same way of

70:27 – 70:33 atomizing separating and ultimately

70:30 – 70:37 turning people into being more alone

70:33 – 70:39 afraid less connected and less spiritual

70:37 – 70:42 in whatever way we want to kind of

70:39 – 70:43 define that what do you think well well

70:42 – 70:44 that’s kind of why I use the word

70:43 – 70:46 technocracy because I’ll work backwards

70:44 – 70:48 because what you just said there is it’s

70:46 – 70:50 true although I don’t focus here’s the

70:48 – 70:51 thing the 20th century technocratic

70:50 – 70:54 project and you include all the P

70:51 Р70:57 like b̩arnaise that are that a part of

70:54 – 70:59 all of the 20th century development of

70:57 – 71:02 these capacities right so the

70:59 – 71:06 technocracy thought it fell to these

71:02 – 71:09 rich people to manage the development of

71:06 – 71:11 the world and the West for our benefit

71:09 – 71:13 right so it isn’t even just necessarily

71:11 – 71:15 keeping them alone and afraid that is a

71:13 – 71:18 side effect of well we are the

71:15 – 71:21 technocratic running the world so our

71:18 – 71:23 our competing narratives are here in the

71:21 – 71:24 church and here in the family and so on

71:23 – 71:25 and what we actually want because we’re

71:24 – 71:27 all the doctors

71:25 – 71:29 where are the educators where all are

71:27 – 71:30 this kind of stuff you need to get it

71:29 – 71:33 from us and we will manage the society

71:30 – 71:35 and you will eat the right food and the

71:33 – 71:37 population will grow or not at the rate

71:35 – 71:39 that we determine the economy will work

71:37 – 71:41 where this is this is how this is the

71:39 – 71:43 the demonic goal so it’s funny it’s

71:41 – 71:46 where I wanted to start there on a human

71:43 – 71:48 level that’s the kind of 20th century

71:46 – 71:50 idea I think they’re shooting for it is

71:48 – 71:51 demonic like if you want to go to a

71:50 – 71:53 higher level when you’re talking about

71:51 – 71:55 what are the kind of metaphysical

71:53 – 71:56 implications I have no idea if any of

71:55 – 71:59 these people realize they are being

71:56 – 72:01 ridden by demons but nevertheless the

71:59 – 72:04 goal of this kind of project is it is in

72:01 – 72:06 some literal sense atactic when it comes

72:04 – 72:08 back to what I was saying before about a

72:06 – 72:10 car crash of different real and fake

72:08 – 72:12 things and an existing and historic

72:10 – 72:14 agendas and so on

72:12 – 72:15 it’s a pity that the word trans is used

72:14 – 72:18 returns humanism and something like

72:15 – 72:21 trans rights because and trans-fats like

72:18 – 72:23 it’s actually like it’s and so we had

72:21 – 72:25 this listing where things get conflated

72:23 – 72:30 together and transhumanism

72:25 – 72:30 is like up and down a technocratic plot

72:30 – 72:36 trans experiences and and kind of new

72:34 – 72:38 explore a explorations of gender and

72:36 – 72:40 gender expression and however they are

72:38 – 72:42 regularly weaponized and they’re

72:40 – 72:44 weaponized for intentional reasons and

72:42 – 72:45 also because missus because Connor comes

72:44 – 72:47 on the show a lot of kind of happy

72:45 – 72:49 because of my show we talked about this

72:47 – 72:52 which is you typically find and

72:49 – 72:55 obviously you typically find the

72:52 – 72:57 promotion of or the the defense of trans

72:55 – 72:60 rights and trans visibility on the

72:57 – 73:02 progressive end of the spectrum like

72:60 – 73:04 obviously that is also you guys have

73:02 – 73:06 when you go it encapsulates I think

73:04 – 73:07 where you’re going what’s like how come

73:06 – 73:13 trans people aren’t allowed in the

73:07 – 73:15 military and you’re like yeah it’s great

73:13 – 73:17 just ban the rest of them now they but

73:15 – 73:20 mostly it’s because on the left where

73:17 – 73:23 you find and were you historically and

73:20 – 73:25 typically and rightly I guess finally

73:23 – 73:27 this promotion of the wrong word because

73:25 – 73:28 it sounds like an agenda but let’s just

73:27 – 73:31 say the defense and the prioritization

73:28 – 73:32 of things a trans rights you also get a

73:31 – 73:35 kind of idiotic

73:32 – 73:37 left materialism you you get the kind of

73:35 – 73:40 Marxist reduction of everything back

73:37 – 73:43 into a materialist labor interaction

73:40 – 73:45 based on his you know observations of a

73:43 – 73:47 19th century industrial economy so you

73:45 – 73:50 have a definite weaponization of

73:47 – 73:51 different manifestations of this you

73:50 – 73:54 have the part of it which is good which

73:51 – 73:55 is you know people should be able to

73:54 – 73:57 fucking move how they want to live and

73:55 – 73:60 you also have the people who are trying

73:57 – 74:02 to help as far as I’m concerned aren’t

73:60 – 74:04 helping in the right way because you see

74:02 – 74:06 argument goes round and around on a

74:04 – 74:08 materialist basis because from a

74:06 – 74:11 progressive perspective

74:08 – 74:13 magic for whenever a better word is is

74:11 – 74:17 dirty it’s it’s dirty their Marxist

74:13 – 74:22 don’t like it the 20th century for us

74:17 – 74:23 was they rely on don’t like it you can I

74:22 – 74:26 substitute spurge you say magic I

74:23 – 74:29 substitute spirituality saying if you

74:26 – 74:31 come at it from an atheistic perspective

74:29 – 74:35 it’s all gobbly good within about two

74:31 – 74:37 sentences and unfortunately the the less

74:35 – 74:40 the left the progressive the neoliberal

74:37 – 74:43 has married themselves to just a

74:40 – 74:46 philosophical kind of non-starter nitwit

74:43 – 74:50 again biological robot kind of thing I

74:46 – 74:51 never said yeah and I thought do you

74:50 – 74:55 have any thoughts on that third picture

74:51 – 74:58 down there I’ve just so many odds alone

74:55 – 75:02 too long and your buddy Peter Levin de

74:58 – 75:07 oh my god to me to me this is the most

75:02 – 75:10 clear example of a political role out

75:07 – 75:13 disclosure kind of thing that that is

75:10 – 75:15 masked by again all this bullshit of

75:13 – 75:16 people talking about well did he did

75:15 – 75:20 they did they should they would they

75:16 – 75:23 it’s a complete political disclosure

75:20 – 75:26 rollout let’s look at it as an operation

75:23 – 75:28 and stop looking at it as a true

75:26 – 75:30 disclosure I mean it there was dissin

75:28 – 75:33 information was disclosed but again it’s

75:30 – 75:34 your term weaponized you know what do

75:33 – 75:36 you think a table what do you think

75:34 – 75:37 computer living my Peter Levin to quote

75:36 – 75:39 that I do have to get you to respond to

75:37 – 75:41 the one that just had me pounding on the

75:39 – 75:42 table I was like I gotta push this back

75:41 – 75:44 on Gordon because Gordon like theater

75:42 – 75:48 his freaks retelling of the story is

75:44 – 75:50 well and then Tom DeLonge called me and

75:48 – 75:51 of course I hung up because I didn’t

75:50 – 75:54 believe was times long and he calls me

75:51 – 75:55 back he said it really is and then we

75:54 – 75:57 talked for a long time we go gosh we

75:55 – 75:59 really got to crack this thing there’s

75:57 – 76:01 so much misinformation disinformation

75:59 – 76:03 out there we got to get to the bottom of

76:01 – 76:06 that and we decided well the only way to

76:03 – 76:13 do that was to go to the military so

76:06 – 76:16 that’s what we did . oh really that was

76:13 – 76:18 the only way to get to the bottom of it

76:16 – 76:21 i mean that isn’t even a well-crafted

76:18 – 76:23 story I was like embarrassed that you

76:21 – 76:28 even try and spin that out there to me

76:23 – 76:28 alright I’ve gone too far

76:28 – 76:33 tell me tell me what you think in

76:29 – 76:36 general about the political SIOP

76:33 – 76:38 disclosure that was it was always gonna

76:36 – 76:41 be I won I think it’s an abandoned one

76:38 – 76:43 we’ve had this discussion before I think

76:41 – 76:45 this stuff is to coincide with the movie

76:43 – 76:49 arrival and a Hillary Clinton presidency

76:45 – 76:51 no idea which happened and they it’s

76:49 – 76:53 it’s like a movie right we have it in

76:51 – 76:56 the can with all the money I’ve got it

76:53 – 76:58 because this if you look at what and you

76:56 – 76:59 you’ll be an agreement in most of your

76:58 – 77:01 guests when you talk about this stuff

76:59 – 77:05 will as well if you look at the majority

77:01 – 77:09 of the the kind of classic era UFO cases

77:05 – 77:12 they are patently us cold war propaganda

77:09 – 77:14 covering secret military projects and

77:12 – 77:15 and and trying to kind of like influence

77:14 – 77:16 the Soviets and since it’s like well

77:15 – 77:18 maybe they do have a flying saucer like

77:16 – 77:21 there’s a lot of a lot of stuff in the

77:18 – 77:25 kind of classic cases is that now all of

77:21 – 77:28 a sudden we have yet another kind of op

77:25 – 77:30 of like oh well maybe we have these

77:28 – 77:32 these flying saucers and these these

77:30 – 77:34 special ray guns and and we got this

77:32 – 77:35 from aliens and it’s it’s important that

77:34 – 77:38 the American people know that this is

77:35 – 77:39 here and that was to coincide with what

77:38 – 77:43 you’re still getting two-thirds of

77:39 – 77:45 Washington trying to want which is a a

77:43 – 77:47 conflict with Russia and a military

77:45 – 77:50 dominance of Eurasia so I think this is

77:47 – 77:53 literally a a semi abandoned or let’s

77:50 – 77:55 see how this goes more air cover for the

77:53 – 77:57 kind of things that we’re going on in

77:55 – 77:59 the Cold War cause really new Cold War I

77:57 – 78:01 think it’s meant I think it’s weird I we

77:59 – 78:03 talked about I honestly think he’s been

78:01 – 78:04 mind-controlled several times and I

78:03 – 78:07 don’t know if you’ve heard him on some

78:04 – 78:09 of the earlier interviews where he’s

78:07 – 78:11 they’re calling people from the car and

78:09 – 78:12 or he’s like meeting people at the front

78:11 – 78:14 of the Pentagon in the middle of the

78:12 – 78:18 night and my my good dude he would being

78:14 – 78:21 mind-controlled so I just in adds a mess

78:18 – 78:23 I just interviewed Kevin day who is a

78:21 – 78:27 super interesting guy

78:23 – 78:30 so Kevin day is the the top gun

78:27 – 78:33 intercept Orchestrator of all those

78:30 – 78:36 planes that are on the tic-tac video

78:33 – 78:39 that gets released mm-hmm I can’t go

78:36 – 78:43 through the whole interview but the guy

78:39 – 78:49 certainly seems legit 1,000% legit and

78:43 – 78:51 the the PTSD valet Davis effect which I

78:49 – 78:56 wasn’t familiar with do you know the

78:51 – 78:57 ballet Davis so valet Davis effect are

78:56 – 79:01 they went ahead

78:57 – 79:04 they Jacques valet and I forget dr.

79:01 – 79:07 Davis’s thing but they did a purity of

79:04 – 79:11 published analysis of the after effects

79:07 – 79:15 of contact related experiences and this

79:11 – 79:18 guy says all of them check every box

79:15 – 79:21 meanwhile he’s going to VA clinics and

79:18 – 79:24 they’re going oh complex PTSD and he’s

79:21 – 79:26 like yeah kind of but not really and

79:24 – 79:27 then he stumbles across eight years

79:26 – 79:28 later because it’s all happened a long

79:27 – 79:31 time ago

79:28 – 79:34 he stumbles across ballet Davis and he

79:31 – 79:38 goes bingo exactly and he traces it back

79:34 – 79:40 to when he actually went up on board

79:38 – 79:41 ship and actually took the glasses out

79:40 – 79:45 and

79:41 – 79:49 look at these visitors and had an

79:45 – 79:51 instantaneous experience meanwhile he’s

79:49 – 79:53 using this state-of-the-art

79:51 – 79:55 billion-dollar war machine

79:53 – 79:58 instrumentation to track these things

79:55 – 80:02 every different way possible

79:58 – 80:04 and he’s seeing it and the other boats

80:02 – 80:07 and planes are seeing it but then

80:04 – 80:09 another interesting aspect of it is

80:07 – 80:12 there’s again this screen memory thing

80:09 – 80:13 going on and he retells the story so

80:12 – 80:14 many times and I listened to it Gordon

80:13 – 80:17 and I finally asked him I said you know

80:14 – 80:18 I’ve talked to enough contact he’s let

80:17 – 80:21 me ask you this part about the

80:18 – 80:26 experience because you said that you

80:21 – 80:30 observed these 20 flying objects

80:26 – 80:34 basically trolling your ship for like

80:30 – 80:37 four days and they were flying at 22,000

80:34 – 80:40 feet at a hundred knots can’t do that

80:37 – 80:43 nothing can do that but you didn’t think

80:40 – 80:46 it was anything to worry about I said I

80:43 – 80:47 gotta tell you how many times I’ve heard

80:46 – 80:50 that story

80:47 – 80:54 from a contact II oh I saw my wife being

80:50 – 80:55 abducted but I decided I should go

80:54 – 80:57 upstairs and go back to bed because

80:55 – 81:00 there was nothing there to worry about

80:57 – 81:03 so he not only has this experience but

81:00 – 81:05 all the other people in on the other

81:03 – 81:08 boats that you know are having the same

81:05 – 81:09 experience oh those are nothing to worry

81:08 – 81:13 about

81:09 – 81:18 they’re just enough so I think there’s

81:13 – 81:22 something more than just wargames

81:18 – 81:24 advanced weapon or advanced technology

81:22 – 81:27 being hidden I think it’s a real contact

81:24 – 81:30 experience and I think they’re playing

81:27 – 81:35 around with true disclosure that is I

81:30 – 81:40 think there’s there is disclosure that

81:35 – 81:43 could be planet changing but there’s a

81:40 – 81:45 wrestling match of the usual kind in

81:43 – 81:47 terms of who’s going to control that

81:45 – 81:49 information and how and when they bring

81:47 – 81:53 it out because obviously that can

81:49 – 81:55 dictate how the script gets written from

81:53 – 81:57 there on

81:55 – 82:01 yeah I’m not sure I’d go the whole way

81:57 – 82:03 there it may well be of course I what

82:01 – 82:05 the closest I would get to that because

82:03 – 82:06 I still think this is when I say it’s an

82:05 – 82:08 op it doesn’t mean because they know

82:06 – 82:09 damn well that they don’t have some of

82:08 – 82:11 these toys that they’re talking about

82:09 – 82:13 right and I don’t know the origins of

82:11 – 82:14 those toys I don’t think you necessarily

82:13 – 82:16 need to have a crush spaceship to make

82:14 – 82:17 some of the kind of things that existed

82:16 – 82:19 when I’m supposed to but maybe that’s

82:17 – 82:22 where you got them from I do think there

82:19 – 82:26 is a kind of signaling game going on at

82:22 – 82:28 a higher geopolitical level and I think

82:26 – 82:30 Russia and China and obviously everyone

82:28 – 82:35 is playing alone this ain’t like they’re

82:30 – 82:38 trying to rattle sabers that we aren’t

82:35 – 82:39 supposed to think exists so if you look

82:38 – 82:40 at the recent Russia thing that may or

82:39 – 82:42 may not be true that they have like a

82:40 – 82:43 ray gun that can cause hallucinations

82:42 – 82:46 and comments and they’re putting on the

82:43 – 82:47 ship that may exist that may not but we

82:46 – 82:48 have this kind of stuff going on in the

82:47 – 82:51 West it may have that and what I’m

82:48 – 82:53 seeing is oh just mean just put it on a

82:51 – 82:55 nation basis obviously because I think

82:53 – 82:57 we’re potentially to geopolitically

82:55 – 82:59 sophisticated to to have it as a

82:57 – 83:02 national discussion or between nations

82:59 – 83:03 discussion but I do think in some of

83:02 – 83:05 this hullabaloo and front page and you

83:03 – 83:06 if for somebody to go in the front page

83:05 – 83:11 of the New York Times it’s get signed

83:06 – 83:13 off in Langley right so I do think

83:11 – 83:14 there’s what we’re seeing in a whole

83:13 – 83:16 bunch of different fora

83:14 – 83:19 at the moment on the geopolitical stage

83:16 – 83:22 people are rattling sabers that we

83:19 – 83:23 aren’t supposed to know exists and and

83:22 – 83:25 that would be as close as I get to I

83:23 – 83:26 think there’s a wrestle over disclosure

83:25 – 83:29 I think they’re like you go flying

83:26 – 83:34 saucers I got a vomit producing ray gun

83:29 – 83:36 perhaps hmm okay we might another topic

83:34 – 83:40 let’s see if we have time to get to five

83:36 – 83:42 or not but this is one first of all

83:40 – 83:45 here’s the guy you’re looking at the

83:42 – 83:48 first guy I know who totally called odd

83:45 – 83:51 patreon probably a year ago yeah a year

83:48 – 83:54 ago said yeah no it ain’t it ain’t gonna

83:51 – 83:56 happen it’s gonna turn the way that all

83:54 – 83:58 the other ones will turn as if we could

83:56 – 84:02 see those other ones turning censorship

83:58 – 84:03 hardcore softcore so tell us and you

84:02 – 84:06 know I pulled to make my little meme

84:03 – 84:07 there I think I’m not very interesting

84:06 – 84:11 head might just

84:07 – 84:14 last couple days from our buddy but you

84:11 – 84:16 know jack conte who’s the CEO of patreon

84:14 – 84:19 the news story that I ran across that I

84:16 – 84:22 thought you know for people like you and

84:19 – 84:25 I we can would love to spin it reading

84:22 – 84:28 between the lines but his big news flash

84:25 – 84:31 was hey Patriot the current patreon

84:28 – 84:35 model is not sustainable and what he was

84:31 – 84:37 signaling was I think hey motherfuckers

84:35 – 84:39 get in line you worried about censorship

84:37 – 84:42 I’m gonna I’m gonna change the whole

84:39 – 84:43 damn thing instead of getting 90% I’m

84:42 – 84:46 gonna tell you how much you can get and

84:43 – 84:48 it’s gonna be a lot less than 90% in the

84:46 – 84:50 future and more importantly what he’s

84:48 – 84:53 signaling is I’m running a business here

84:50 – 84:57 and when I run a business I listen to

84:53 – 84:60 the people who basically set the rules

84:57 – 85:03 for my business and the rules for my

84:60 – 85:06 business going forward are censorship

85:03 – 85:08 because that’s the game that is always

85:06 – 85:10 going to be at play it’s only a matter

85:08 – 85:14 of who’s doing the censoring what do you

85:10 – 85:16 think of patreon well like my background

85:14 – 85:19 I’ve been in startups and had them

85:16 – 85:23 acquired and from essentially my space

85:19 – 85:24 on a platform just gets worse

85:23 – 85:26 it happens with Facebook it happen for

85:24 – 85:30 Twitter and and from a commercial

85:26 – 85:32 perspective Etsy and PayPal both kick

85:30 – 85:34 off businesses that they decide or

85:32 – 85:35 unilaterally like an astrologer or

85:34 – 85:37 something that they declare doesn’t

85:35 – 85:40 exist so it’s like you’re always at risk

85:37 – 85:43 in our space whether it’s a podcast or

85:40 – 85:46 whether it’s magic or whatever you want

85:43 – 85:51 how many times do you have to get fucked

85:46 – 85:53 over by Silicon Valley’s eternal just

85:51 – 85:55 nature before you go oh no this time

85:53 – 85:56 it’ll be different this time would be

85:55 – 85:57 great and so I did have a bit of

85:56 – 86:00 experience in like there’s no way this

85:57 – 86:03 ends well because none of them have as

86:00 – 86:05 for the censorship component on a macro

86:03 – 86:07 basis I actually in a funny way I think

86:05 – 86:09 it’s good news

86:07 – 86:13 firstly it is surprising to me that

86:09 – 86:16 people didn’t realize what platforms

86:13 – 86:19 like Google like YouTube and whatever

86:16 – 86:21 actually were and I’ve kind of confused

86:19 – 86:23 it is some sort of public free

86:21 – 86:25 expression when it is a it’s a corporate

86:23 – 86:29 product at back set back ends into DARPA

86:25 – 86:31 right so hold on I mean I think we have

86:29 – 86:34 to make a distinction there because I’m

86:31 – 86:37 with you when you say back into back

86:34 – 86:40 ends into DARPA but in another respect

86:37 – 86:44 it is the public square it is the Fourth

86:40 – 86:47 Estate it is the of our time it is and

86:44 – 86:49 that play could have been made and I

86:47 – 86:51 think that you know that those questions

86:49 – 86:54 will be answered in the courts years

86:51 – 86:57 from now but I look at it they’re surely

86:54 – 87:00 going to lose because you know jack

86:57 – 87:04 conte can’t on one hand say i banned

87:00 – 87:07 this right-wing woman because she was

87:04 – 87:09 endangering our group got together and

87:07 – 87:12 decided i mean as soon as you start

87:09 – 87:14 policing your content in that way then

87:12 – 87:15 you are in the business of

87:14 – 87:17 editorializing and you’re putting

87:15 – 87:19 yourself in a little sure a whole

87:17 – 87:21 different thing so and the whole thing

87:19 – 87:24 with like with alex jones we also have

87:21 – 87:25 up there like alex jones don’t like alex

87:24 – 87:28 jones but i think he is kind of exposed

87:25 – 87:31 himself lately with the trump epstein

87:28 – 87:32 thing which he’s gone a gone way over

87:31 – 87:36 clearly there’s a connection there and

87:32 – 87:39 for him to to allow his buddy Roger

87:36 – 87:41 stone to get on there and say oh you’re

87:39 – 87:44 like a classic digression but Roger

87:41 – 87:47 stone to to get on there and say the

87:44 – 87:50 only time Trump ever saw Epstein is when

87:47 – 87:52 his chauffeur drove him past his house

87:50 – 87:55 and he said oh look he must be heavy

87:52 – 87:57 he must be having a birthday party for

87:55 – 87:59 some young girls look at all the young

87:57 – 88:01 girls at that pool and then he realized

87:59 – 88:04 it was something more so he just drove

88:01 – 88:07 on by I mean this it has gone so over

88:04 – 88:09 the top with Alex that I don’t know that

88:07 – 88:12 we can get him back to where he was

88:09 – 88:15 where he was really I think that true

88:12 – 88:18 truther and was dishing out some truth

88:15 – 88:23 but I digress again because the point is

88:18 – 88:25 you cannot ban someone on every fucking

88:23 – 88:28 platform in a coordinated way on the

88:25 – 88:31 same day and have that not

88:28 – 88:34 that’s clearly collusion and it’s

88:31 – 88:36 clearly obstruction of obstruction of

88:34 – 88:39 trade and he will win in the courts but

88:36 – 88:42 it’s gonna come five or seven years from

88:39 – 88:45 now when no one cares but it isn’t as

88:42 – 88:46 simple as oh those are platforms and

88:45 – 88:48 they can do whatever they want I mean

88:46 – 88:52 that’s something that is gonna have to

88:48 – 88:55 be here well I guess I’m just feeling it

88:52 – 88:57 tactically because my I’ve worked with

88:55 – 88:58 these companies that was my career

88:57 – 89:01 before I did this and like there’s no

88:58 – 89:02 way I would have there’s no way I would

89:01 – 89:04 setup what it is they do in a way that

89:02 – 89:07 is reliant on any of them because again

89:04 – 89:08 it’s Fox and the Scorpion I know how

89:07 – 89:11 they behave and they know how they end

89:08 – 89:13 up so yes there’s absolutely a case and

89:11 – 89:16 here’s the bit that I was kind of I got

89:13 – 89:17 halfway through which is I actually see

89:16 – 89:19 this as good news and I don’t mean the

89:17 – 89:20 banning of people and so and every time

89:19 – 89:22 they do this and you’re noticing and

89:20 – 89:24 especially with Twitter at the moment

89:22 – 89:25 and the whole platform gets worst and

89:24 – 89:28 people don’t want to be there anymore

89:25 – 89:30 every time they do this they make the

89:28 – 89:33 thing that they’re trying to make safe

89:30 – 89:36 or better worse and it just seems like

89:33 – 89:38 everyone’s kind of working that out at

89:36 – 89:39 either looking for a new thing or

89:38 – 89:44 realizing that we do need to pivot

89:39 – 89:45 towards a a more decentralized to

89:44 – 89:47 connect in an analogue way rather than

89:45 – 89:50 everyone hanging out on a platform I

89:47 – 89:52 actually see it as a kind of good news

89:50 – 89:55 that there and it kind of shows him in

89:52 – 89:57 many respects how scared they are or

89:55 – 89:58 aware they are that the kind of

89:57 – 90:01 overarching propaganda is failing

89:58 – 90:04 because propaganda always kind of fails

90:01 – 90:06 before a regime change and you sort of

90:04 – 90:09 get the sense that we’ve got a few years

90:06 – 90:11 left to run if these idiots making it so

90:09 – 90:13 much more awful because they’ve got

90:11 – 90:18 their marching orders from whoever like

90:13 – 90:20 you know wherever they come from they

90:18 – 90:23 just it’s gonna be crap but I actually

90:20 – 90:26 kind of see it as a it’s going to be

90:23 – 90:27 more slightly more difficult and this is

90:26 – 90:31 just how the world works to be on the

90:27 – 90:33 Internet in a satisfactory way but in

90:31 – 90:35 the medium term maybe that’s good like

90:33 – 90:38 maybe we will end up with ways that

90:35 – 90:40 don’t rely wholly on everyone being on a

90:38 – 90:43 platform that is they go DARPA funded

90:40 – 90:47 valence thing right I don’t know I’ve

90:43 – 90:49 been beaten up a bit more yeah no I

90:47 – 90:52 spot-on I really like where you’re going

90:49 – 90:55 and I think again that is being played

90:52 – 90:57 out as we speak because the third meme I

90:55 – 91:00 have up there is you know Joe Rogan’s

90:57 – 91:04 recent interview with Jack Dorsey at

91:00 – 91:08 Twitter and the news out of that is you

91:04 – 91:12 know 10,000 thumbs down on YouTube

91:08 – 91:14 because of Joe Rogan who if anyone who

91:12 – 91:17 doesn’t understand him I don’t want to

91:14 – 91:21 say he’s a show cuz he’s not but I mean

91:17 – 91:24 he’s just a part of that megaphone now

91:21 – 91:27 you know in some way that we don’t

91:24 – 91:30 totally understand and whether he’s

91:27 – 91:32 co-opted or just following the cheese

91:30 – 91:35 that’s laid down through the maze or who

91:32 – 91:35 cares or you know but you know there he

91:35 – 91:38 is

91:35 – 91:41 tossing softball questions to Jack

91:38 – 91:43 Dorsey but to your point it’s thumbs

91:41 – 91:46 down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down

91:43 – 91:48 to where you know he had to apologize to

91:46 – 91:52 his listeners yeah right I’ll do it

91:48 – 91:54 better next time yeah right and or

91:52 – 91:56 YouTube should get rid of that thumbs

91:54 – 91:60 down thing anyway why don’t we just have

91:56 – 92:02 likes we don’t need this likes but to

91:60 – 92:05 your point I think those are the throws

92:02 – 92:08 of a dying fish you know what I mean

92:05 – 92:10 absolutely Netflix is doing it as well I

92:08 – 92:14 mean they actually got rid of the rating

92:10 – 92:17 system because Amy Schumer yeah when her

92:14 – 92:19 okay yeah when her show came out

92:17 – 92:22 whatever it was 18 months ago and it was

92:19 – 92:23 terrible because they had she’d made

92:22 – 92:27 such a big fuss about being paid the

92:23 – 92:29 same amount as forget who and everyone

92:27 – 92:31 found it awful that they did what

92:29 – 92:34 YouTube may well do which is that I will

92:31 – 92:36 remove the negative bit guys this is

92:34 – 92:38 this is not how you it’s almost you

92:36 – 92:39 could always make a medical metaphor but

92:38 – 92:41 you were treating the symptoms here and

92:39 – 92:43 and I don’t think they have the

92:41 – 92:45 awareness to do anything else I don’t

92:43 – 92:47 really watch Alex Jones so I’m not sure

92:45 – 92:51 what he’s up to or any

92:47 – 92:54 I enjoy Alex Jones immensely I have to

92:51 – 92:57 say because he’s an entertainer he is

92:54 – 93:01 directly at this point especially he’s

92:57 – 93:04 completely crossed over the line too

93:01 – 93:06 we really can’t take him anything other

93:04 – 93:09 than and then entertainment and for any

93:06 – 93:13 Oh everything after his apology to James

93:09 – 93:15 elephant is on it was it’s all is

93:13 – 93:17 revealed you know why do we have to

93:15 – 93:19 apologize did James elephant this for

93:17 – 93:22 pizza gate why did we have to do that

93:19 – 93:24 well clearly to me there’s some kind of

93:22 – 93:26 connection with his you know Trump has

93:24 – 93:28 taken that off the table that will not

93:26 – 93:30 be pursued there will not be any

93:28 – 93:32 draining of the swamp and I think the

93:30 – 93:34 orders came down there and that’s the

93:32 – 93:37 thread that I follow with Alex Jones

93:34 – 93:39 that clarifies where that the whole

93:37 – 93:41 thing is gone but uh enough on him I had

93:39 – 93:43 one more topic labs and see if we could

93:41 – 93:46 if we could get there but in a lot of

93:43 – 93:49 ways I think we already have when we

93:46 – 93:52 talked about counterfeited spirituality

93:49 – 93:56 that seems to be strictly looking at

93:52 – 93:59 empirical data the data from the alien

93:56 – 94:01 contact experience mainly the data

93:59 – 94:03 that’s been collected by bond buddy ray

94:01 – 94:05 Hernandez in the free organization

94:03 – 94:08 they’re the only ones who did a real

94:05 – 94:12 scientific study of it including Leo

94:08 – 94:14 sprinkle and other PhD level Harvard PhD

94:12 – 94:15 level people who know how to collect

94:14 – 94:18 that kind of data for whatever it’s

94:15 – 94:20 worth survey empirical data but those

94:18 – 94:22 experiences line up almost perfectly

94:20 – 94:25 with the near-death experience so sure

94:22 – 94:27 what do you do with that data one way to

94:25 – 94:30 interpret that is that these are truly

94:27 – 94:32 spiritual experiences and I’m one person

94:30 – 94:37 who’s pounding the drum over there kind

94:32 – 94:38 of with your demonic trickster kind of

94:37 – 94:42 sensibility that you’re expressing going

94:38 – 94:45 really are we sure it could the

94:42 – 94:47 technology again loosely using the term

94:45 – 94:50 technology be so developed that they can

94:47 – 94:51 counterfeit the spiritual experience and

94:50 – 94:53 I wonder if you have any thoughts

94:51 – 94:56 absolutely like when and I love rayon

94:53 – 94:58 and stuff as well this you know what I’m

94:56 – 94:60 gonna say like so if near-death

94:58 – 95:06 experiences or

94:60 – 95:08 contact and UFO cases have have a lot of

95:06 – 95:10 structural similarities and had

95:08 – 95:12 after-effects in people’s lives yeah

95:10 – 95:14 this is that kind of naive Western idea

95:12 – 95:17 of well then it you know well my my

95:14 – 95:19 granny’s in heaven and and I spoke to an

95:17 – 95:20 alien so this must be good that’s really

95:19 – 95:21 really not even you know what I’m gonna

95:20 – 95:24 say it looks like the spirit world to me

95:21 – 95:26 the spirit world is ambivalent and and

95:24 – 95:29 we just that’s one of the things perhaps

95:26 – 95:31 we could learn by doing comparison a

95:29 – 95:33 little bit better so that we don’t have

95:31 – 95:35 this binary of is it aliens or is it

95:33 – 95:37 ghosts and are they good or are they bad

95:35 – 95:39 there are a better way

95:37 – 95:41 literally objectively better ways of

95:39 – 95:43 coming at this material and and

95:41 – 95:45 understanding that it has some

95:43 – 95:47 ambivalence or it might have one or more

95:45 – 95:49 agendas like that’s that’s how we’ve

95:47 – 95:51 always interacted with as a species

95:49 – 95:53 that’s how we’ve always interacted so

95:51 – 95:55 you have a hundred percent with you and

95:53 – 95:57 that I love race stuff I do think on the

95:55 – 96:01 edges of that you do get people who are

95:57 – 96:04 who are more optimistic about the

96:01 – 96:06 motives for extra dimensional contact

96:04 – 96:09 and I think we should be maybe these are

96:06 – 96:11 business backward Alex you know maybe

96:09 – 96:14 this is something like that but I’m

96:11 – 96:17 generally I want to know why someone is

96:14 – 96:22 nice yeah I want to know why someone is

96:17 – 96:26 being nice yes that that is a business

96:22 – 96:29 value that I can definitely tune into

96:26 – 96:31 you know it’s it’s been awesome we’ve

96:29 – 96:33 spent you an hour and 45 minutes it’s

96:31 – 96:36 flown by Gordon tell folks

96:33 – 96:38 what’s going on with Rhian soup and

96:36 – 96:40 where the hell is the book buddy you

96:38 – 96:43 know yeah gotta be one or two of them

96:40 – 96:46 out there what’s what’s the delay um the

96:43 – 96:47 delay is I’m you know I have about three

96:46 – 96:48 full-time jobs at the moment because

96:47 – 96:50 they have a brand new farm which is a

96:48 – 96:51 full-time job and I have a Premium

96:50 – 96:53 Membership because they don’t use

96:51 – 96:54 patreon for people who like this kind of

96:53 – 96:58 stuff we do quarterly courses the next

96:54 – 97:00 one is on ancestors and contact with the

96:58 – 97:03 dead and so you can do that Edwin suit

97:00 – 97:06 obviously the majority of it is free the

97:03 – 97:07 show the blog and the Facebook page if

97:06 – 97:09 somebody wants to take a course just a

97:07 – 97:12 kind of detail there someone wants to

97:09 – 97:12 take a course how do they pay for it are

97:12 – 97:13 you

97:12 – 97:16 into patreon if they want to do that I

97:13 – 97:17 don’t a picture and you’re like you just

97:16 – 97:19 click on the members section of the

97:17 – 97:22 website and join up it’s the same idea

97:19 – 97:23 like yeah there’s a monthly fee and well

97:22 – 97:25 there’s a monthly membership but it’s

97:23 – 97:27 not just the one course we don’t sell

97:25 – 97:29 them differently we do like the live

97:27 – 97:31 video and people go in holidays together

97:29 – 97:34 and oh all kinds of weird it’s it’s it’s

97:31 – 97:37 a really fun and missing group lunatics

97:34 – 97:41 like me but if you’re meant together

97:37 – 97:43 right you guys do oh yeah and I in fact

97:41 – 97:45 credit the fact that this sixty thousand

97:43 – 97:48 hectare bushfire got 800 meters from the

97:45 – 97:51 farm and no further to the repeated kind

97:48 – 97:53 of intention exercises and and nakshatra

97:51 – 97:55 mantras we did on a big simultaneous

97:53 – 97:58 group basis and it’s it’s been an

97:55 – 98:01 incredible last few weeks and if that

97:58 – 98:04 kind of if you like if you like

98:01 – 98:08 exploring sceptical style content in a

98:04 – 98:10 way that is is embodied I guess that

98:08 – 98:15 might be for you it might not listen to

98:10 – 98:17 the show anyway who are the I have not

98:15 – 98:20 popped over there I’m a member but I

98:17 – 98:22 just haven’t made the leap and I don’t

98:20 – 98:25 know exactly why because I want to poke

98:22 – 98:29 in there I love that idea of embodying

98:25 – 98:32 it in finding like-minded folks who’s

98:29 – 98:34 coming over there give me an idea of the

98:32 – 98:37 of the profile I’m sure it’s a wide

98:34 – 98:39 variety of folks but yeah there’s

98:37 – 98:41 there’s a lot of sort of background and

98:39 – 98:43 interest overlaps magic being the

98:41 – 98:45 principle when is a magic we operate

98:43 – 98:46 people by and large and the course is it

98:45 – 98:47 very specifically because they vote on

98:46 – 98:50 them they’re very specifically about

98:47 – 98:53 magic but we’ll end up doing other ones

98:50 – 98:55 eventually and so with this fascinating

98:53 – 98:58 overlaps with people without their

98:55 – 99:01 permaculture background or philosophy

98:58 – 99:04 the majority of them are in the u.s.

99:01 – 99:07 yeah it’s there they’re amazing and

99:04 – 99:08 their lives they get up to and this is

99:07 – 99:09 one of the things that’s from about our

99:08 – 99:11 little world you meet the most

99:09 – 99:14 remarkable people

99:11 – 99:15 awesome well I really hope people check

99:14 – 99:17 that out and they’re gonna find me over

99:15 – 99:19 there more because I really want to do

99:17 – 99:21 that I think what you’re creating and

99:19 – 99:23 the community that you’re creating is

99:21 – 99:24 super important and talk about embodying

99:23 – 99:26 it in

99:24 – 99:28 here’s a guy that a couple years ago was

99:26 – 99:31 talking I remember when we were talking

99:28 – 99:34 we’re sitting out on the patio near my

99:31 – 99:38 house and you were visualizing what you

99:34 – 99:40 did manifest I mean exactly

99:38 – 99:42 and it was really kind of remarkable to

99:40 – 99:45 see you go through that process so you

99:42 – 99:47 have a nice little apple farm and

99:45 – 99:49 whatever else you’re farming there on

99:47 – 99:53 the edge of the world over looking at

99:49 – 99:55 arctica and you’ve tell people a little

99:53 – 99:57 bit about that project that you’ve that

99:55 – 99:59 you’ve undertaken there because I know a

99:57 – 100:01 lot of people really find that it’s kind

99:59 – 100:06 of the total reframe of the prepper

100:01 – 100:09 thing into a positive lifestyle where I

100:06 – 100:13 want to be regardless of how good or bad

100:09 – 100:15 things get no exactly so I mean I’m a

100:13 – 100:17 permaculture designer and events officer

100:15 – 100:19 for permaculture tasmania we’ve only

100:17 – 100:21 just got here so it’d only been here

100:19 – 100:23 twelve months so it still just looks

100:21 – 100:25 like over grace sheet paddock with a few

100:23 – 100:28 things that we’ve planted right but that

100:25 – 100:32 is the general idea to kind of live you

100:28 – 100:36 know in a way that is experimental in

100:32 – 100:38 the sense of there are permaculture this

100:36 – 100:41 is a whole separate show right it is in

100:38 – 100:43 a really interesting place in terms of

100:41 – 100:45 what it does next and I’m very

100:43 – 100:46 interested in that overlap I know dr.

100:45 – 100:48 hunter is as well and contributing to

100:46 – 100:50 his latest book in that kind of sense so

100:48 – 100:53 yeah we live on five acres in in

100:50 – 100:55 southern Tasmania and beginning a sort

100:53 – 100:55 of permaculture journey which will

100:55 – 100:57 include

100:55 – 100:59 you know on-farm produce and

100:57 – 101:01 accommodation and and all the other

100:59 – 101:02 things and it’s amazing yeah when it’s

101:01 – 101:05 not on fire it’s an amazing place to be

101:02 – 101:08 awesome well it’s been just great

101:05 – 101:09 reconnecting with your own skeptic oh I

101:08 – 101:12 know so many people will appreciate this

101:09 – 101:14 interview Gordon do take care or let’s

101:12 – 101:16 stay in touch and thanks again for

101:14 – 101:18 joining me absolutely thank you for

101:16 – 101:18 having me

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