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Conner Habib is a sex workers’ rights advocate with a rigorously intellectual take on spirituality.

photo by: Skeptiko

Charlie Chaplin, The Great Emperor: “I’m sorry, but I don’t want to be an emperor. I don’t want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone if possible. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. We want to live by each other’s happiness, not by each other’s misery. We don’t want to hate and despise one another. In this world there’s room for everyone and the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone, the way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. Greed has poisoned men’s souls”.

Alex Tsakiris: So, if you are materialistically focused and you’re disconnected from the spiritual compassionate part, we can all see that and point at that and go, “Oh, how terrible.” But when we see the atheist Heather Berg, USC disconnect, we’re unable to do the same and say, “Well, your compassion is disconnected from the deeper spiritual reality.”

“It cries out for universal brotherhood, for the unity of us all. Even now my voice is reaching millions throughout the world. Millions of despairing men, women and little children, victims of the system that makes men torture and imprison innocent people.”

Conner Habib: Ask ourselves consistently “Am I evil?” It’s almost like the opposite of, if you can ask yourself if you’re crazy, then you’re not crazy. If you can ask yourself if you’re evil, then you actually do have the potential to become evil, because if you never ask, then you’re just in this way of compulsive sleepwalking forces, like everybody else, and nothing you do is really evil, but also nothing you do is really good. Like, you’re not really acting out of intention at all, so you’re not really able to extend to love and compassion for a real and an intentional purpose, for a meaningful way to people. And that is the gift of the possibility of evil to us, that’s the gift of free will to us, is that, the separation, the ability to do evil means that if we look at that, we ask ourselves that, then we can do good in the world.

I have an interview coming up in a minute with Conner Habib, and you just heard both of us talking over the very great and famous Charlie Chaplin clip from the The Great Dictator. And while I almost feel like we can’t possibly do justice to a clip like that, I did want to set the stage for a discussion that I feel like has been going on in the background here on Skeptiko for a while, and that is the link or maybe better said, the disconnect between spirituality and progressive social thinking. I mean, when you listen to Charlie Chaplin, who the heck disagrees with any of that? But at the same time, does anything Charlie Chaplin is saying there, does any of that make any sense, if there isn’t a larger spiritual reality?

So, in this interview we talk about that. It takes us a little while to get there, there’s a lot of other things that Conner and I talk about. It was a great chat, a really interesting chat, and I appreciate having the opportunity to talk to Conner, since I’ve known him for quite some time and he’s never been on Skeptiko.

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Read Excerpts

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Alex Tsakiris: Maybe we could get into that in a minute. There’s one other angle to it that really intrigued me and I want to see if we can have a little bit of a conversation about it, because again, you always bring the sex angle into this, which is something that I have to say, you’ve just made me kind of look there in a way that is cool, because I wasn’t looking there before.

Even the last time we talked, and you said, “Yeah, and look at the sexual angle as it relates to the paranormal,” and then you go, “Oh, shit man, what do you do with that? What do you do with the demon who raped me? What do you do with the positive angel who had intercourse with me?” And then you had a couple of other cultural touchpoints with that and I was like, “Wow, there is a lot there to pull apart.”

Then, the thing I’ve gotten interested in a lot lately, is the whole ET thing and some people are saying, “Well, there’s an ET, spiritual transformation kind of connection,” but then there’s also the ET sex thing, and again, if you look at it, like you were saying in the porn thing, or if you look at the porn literature, that’s a super popular topic. I mean you write about, “My encounter with Big Foot,” man, those things go through the roof, the same as, “My encounters with ET or the reptilian,” super-popular stuff.

So, what’s going on there, in terms of the whole spectrum of sex and the extended consciousness realm. Do you have any thoughts going in?

Conner Habib: Yeah, so that to me is so fascinating and it’s something I’m going to keep an eye out for, as I begin to do the research, but I’ve already, sort of looked into it.

So, here’s a really simple example. My friend Mona Eltahawy, who was on my show a couple of episodes back, she’s an Egyptian feminist, writer, she’s a Muslim and she’s, like really into sexual liberation and she brought up, when I told her what I was going to do, she was like, “Oh, well there are these women, Muslim women will sometimes say that they’ve been captured or possessed by Jinn or they’ve had sex with a Jinn, like a genie. So, therefore they can’t have sex with their husbands anymore.”

And we both kind of laughed for a second and then I said, “Well, isn’t it interesting that we laughed, and we just automatically assumed that what was happening there, was a way to sort of escape the power that’s in the home?” Maybe for some people it is, but like, why should we immediately disbelieve the person, or account after account after account of people that have had sexual encounters, either consensual or non-consensual, with supernatural entities, with ghosts, with demons or, if you want to make it not so supernatural or whatever, you can say with aliens, although I know they have a supernatural aspect?  

So, when you get into accounts where people say that they’ve been raped by a supernatural entity, how do you handle that in the, sort of, ‘believe the victims’ me too” narrative, is an interesting question to me? The idea is that you believe the victims when they say, “Hey, I’ve been raped and maybe don’t have all of the evidence in place, but it’s important to believe me because a whole history of silence around assault victims has existed before this.”

What do you do with the people where the assaulter isn’t present, and you don’t believe that the assaulter exists? This is a really interesting question to me and it’s funny, to even bring that up, people think that you’re demeaning rape or sexual assault by bringing these other accounts in, but to me, that tangle of questions has so much that it can tell us.

Another example I brought up, this women, Ida Craddock, who, around the time of the World’s Fair, here in the US, she was teaching women how to experience sexual pleasure and she was hounded to death by Anthony Comstock, the guy who ran the Society Against Vice or whatever, the guy who was making sure that nobody was sending any information about sex or pregnancy or anything in the mail, because then he would arrest you.

So, she was hounded to death by him. Literally she killed herself because she was hounded so frequently by him and she said she was married to an angel and that she had had all of these sexual encounters with an angel and people like to dismiss that and say, “Oh well, she was just doing that so she could stay single and blah, blah, blah.” Maybe so, but that’s not the language that she used. She used language of saying, “No, I’m married to an angel. I have this whole sexual love, emotional relationship with this spiritual being.”

Of course, nuns are married to Christ. So, you have this whole connection of supernatural, paranormal, spiritual and also extraterrestrial events that are in the sexual realm that people don’t think of.

The reason why I’m not going there first, with my investigation, is because that’s something that needs to unfold and open up. People feel vulnerable about supernatural experiences and paranormal experiences and investigations, they feel vulnerable about their sexual encounters. So, I can’t depend on that all just showing up for me, just because I meet some strangers and say, “Hey, have you ever had sex with a ghost?” You can’t do that.

So, I’ve got to, sort of figure out, is this going to unfold naturally, and all of that? But that is a real concern for me, and this is something I’ll investigate in literature, even if people aren’t necessarily willing to talk about it.

—-

Alex Tsakiris: You did a good job of grinding it back to what it’s really all about, which is this disconnection with the spiritual realities that we know are true, because no matter where you approach them, philosophically, scientifically, whatever, we’re forced to move past this crazy atheistic materialism that is the standard play for everybody.

So, I’d shift that discussion similarly as it goes into conspiracy, because that’s something I’ve been dragged into for the last couple of years and people really don’t like it when I go there and a lot of people are really, kind of, they’re just not able to go there. In the back of their mind, they think there’s some underlying truth, they suppose, to the fact that things aren’t really what they seem, that social engineering really is at play at every turn, but they don’t really want to go there, and they’d just as soon laugh it off, in the same way that you were talking about.

I love the story about the woman you were talking to, the genie raped her so she can’t have sex with her husband, and the first reaction is to laugh, “Ha, ha, ha, ha,” and then both eyes meet, and you were like, “Is there any potential reality to that at all?” I think the same thing goes on with the conspiracy stuff.

So, if we want to talk about it, feminism is a great place to jump into it, because I think it connects to a lot of the other social movement interests that you have. But I pass it along to you, because I think it’s so significant, so central to this Gloria Steinem thing, and I always bring up Joe Atwill, because I love Joe, he’s just a great guy, I think he’s so smart and he’s drilled into some of this stuff in some ways that other people haven’t, but Gloria Steinem is CIA.

Conner Habib: Right, right.

Alex Tsakiris: That’s not conspiracy theory, that’s like, a real feminist finally investigated her, and really drilled into it. They interviewed her and nailed her on it and she had to say, “Yeah, well, I was CIA, but hey, I had to be, because the feminist cause was too important,” and for a lot of people that was enough, that was like, “Oh yeah, it was too important and if that’s the only way she could do it, then hooray for that.” We all kind of get there, because it’s like, yeah, there was a huge problem there, in our society.

But then, when you fast forward, and I sent you this link and you go, “Oh, but she’s still at it,” and you have a Syrian background, and now she’s at it in the strangest CIA way again, where she’s protesting against the rights of women in Syria. It sounds good and then you take a step back and you go, “Yeah, but isn’t Syria more progressive than just about any other state that’s around it, any other Arab state that’s around it, and isn’t Syria engaged in this death spiral battle with ISIS who wants to burqa-ize every woman and just completely destroy their rights? Isn’t that a curious position for Gloria Steinem to take?

Then, taking it outside of that narrow context right there, what does that say to the extent to which social engineering is at play with all of this stuff, where we think we’re…?

Conner Habib: There’s so, so much of that going on  and I think, if people don’t want to jump into, like huge conspiracy, take the first step, which is, have the thought… Okay, so here’s something that I think is progressive, whether it’s feminism or whether it’s some sort of identity politics or another, think about, how people who are not really great people, could use that against you. Just think about it. Take a moment and think about it, because they will, because people in power, with the institutions in power, in alignment with, as you’ve talked about on your show before, forces, spiritual forces that are engaged in our behaviors and our actions, they will use anything they can against us, and one of the best ways to do that is stuff that looks really nice on paper.

The feminist example is really personal to me, not because of the Syria thing, although that’s bad enough with Gloria Steinem, but because of being in communities of sex workers, right?

So, earlier this year, there was a bipartisan law, there was a law passed by bipartisan effort called the Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act, or the Stop Enabling Sex Trafficking Act, FOSTA or SESTA, a combination of two versions of this bill and everybody voted for it in the senate, accept for two people, Ron Wyden and Rand Paul. The whole thing was like, “Well, we need to stop human trafficking, we need to stop sex trafficking, we need a bill.”

Great, I want to stop sex trafficking and human trafficking too, but as a sex worker I know that the law conflates human trafficking with consensual sex work, where sex workers are people who have decided to engage in it for a variety of reasons. So, that’s number one.

But, let’s take it more to the, sort of, Skeptiko angle here. The meat of the law was that the government can seize or shutdown any website for the behavior of its users. So, if on Craigslist someone advertised for prostitution, which the government conflates with sex trafficking, then the government can shut Craigslist down, even though Craigslist had no control over what the user did on its own site.

So, through this law, that looks like it’s helping victims of human trafficking, under the guise of a certain form of feminism, which  was supported by Amy Schumer and Seth Meyers and all of these celebrities, who are just complete blockheads. Now, the government has carte blanche to shutdown any website with something that is beyond the website master’s control, or the owner of the website’s control and it’s so broadly defined that they can do it whenever they want, to any website whatsoever, which has had a massive effect on a lot of different sites in a lot of different avenues.

So, I’m using that as a really recent impression and example of how these kinds of things happen. They can sound like the best law in the world, and it will be backed-up by an amazing ideology of feminism, and yet, what’s actually happening there? What does that mean?

So, you get the same thing with the Gloria Steinem bullshit, or how about Betty Friedan, when she was like, “No feminists, we aren’t supporting Israel enough. There’s a lot of Israeli people that we need to support because the Palestinians, they’re really into Burqas and all of that kind of stuff.”

Now, I’m not going enmesh in the whole burqa, no burqa argument, or hijab, no hijab argument, but I am going to say, that was also calculated, and she pulled a lot of prominent feminists into that political realm.

So, these kinds of things are happening often and all the time, and to me, it’s like, you just have to keep that spinning in your head, “What could be here that might be used against me in this progressive cause?”

Rob Lowe, the celebrity on Twitter, said yesterday, as in this recording, he said, “I saw Jeremy Corbyn call Theresa May a stupid woman.” So, whatever the hell you think about Jeremy Corbyn or Theresa May, the entire UK news media seized on that because Jeremy Corbyn wasn’t a feminist enough because he called Theresa May a stupid woman.

Again, I don’t give a shit about what your feelings are about BREXIT or Theresa May, in this case, I do care, and I have my own opinions on it, but it’s like, that’s so easily positioned, people can seize these things.

So, that’s just the first level of things, then you bring it up to the level that you talk about on the show, which is like, there are people that are really calculatedly trying to make these decisions and bring these kinds of things out. Then, you take it up to the next level, if you really want to go there, and talk about, “Well, there are probably people behind them too,” and then take it up to the next level and talk about forces, spiritual forces, whatever you want to say.

But I think the doorway in, that any reasonable person can engage with is, “What might be here that we should think about?” The Russiagate thing is a very obvious example, that more and more people, I think, are picking up on, like, “Um, there might be some problems with this whole, Russia, Russia, Russia narrative interfering with the election.”

End 01:15:13     

Start 01:26:09

Alex Tsakiris: Here’s the point. What interested me from the beginning about Pizzagate and about satanic ritual abuse and generally about sexual abuse of children, which often times doesn’t have anything to do with sex, it has to do with violence, and when I interviewed Bob Hamer, FBI agent for 20 years, who infiltrated NAMBLA, Man Boy Love Association’s phony political front, and the conversations that he heard these men having were not about sex or love, they were about violence, they were about, really horrible, horrific things that they wanted to do to children and ways that they wanted to harm them.

But I digress slightly, because what that was really about to me was the question of evil because there’s a moral ambiguity to Obama, who I’m sure you were referring to, drone striking weddings, because Obama was the drone strike king in history, more drone strikes than anyone else and he had a lot of children and he killed a lot of innocence and all of the rest of it and I say that slightly tongue in cheek because, of course, it happened and it’s happened since, but let’s let Obama sit on the throne there because he won that prize. But there’s a moral ambiguity to that, because we understand that we need to defend ourselves. So, Dalai Lama says, “Hey, if someone attacks you, it’s okay to defend yourself.” Gandhi says, “Hey, even though it’s turn the other cheek and peace and all of that, we do have a right to defend ourselves.”

So, well-meaning people can have differences about how far that defense extends and what we should allow ourselves, or our governments on our behalf, to engage in, in order to defend ourselves.

On the other hand, a lot of this sexual abuse and satanic stuff, strikes us as something that is of a different ilk. It is evil in a way that we don’t want to look at or fully come to grips with. It’s evil in a way that I don’t fully understand, but I’m open to wanting to explore because I think there’s something there that fits into this larger puzzle, in terms of why someone would engage in this kind of evil. Do you get what I’m saying?

Conner Habib: Yes. Okay, so first, I want to agree with you and then I want to turn something back to you, okay? The thing I want to agree with you on is, yes, there is definitely a distinction there and anything that looks like satanic ritual abuse will reveal something different about evil to us that I think is important.

But I would also just turn back to you and say, maybe the more pernicious and horrible evil is in the kind of violence that makes us think that there’s ambiguity about it, maybe that’s the thing that’s actually way more evil. Because let’s say somebody gets caught red-handed, skinning a child, as some of these accounts are, and hanging their skin on a tree, I think our society would condemn that, really, if they saw it in plain sight. We see images of people being burned alive and it’s public record and we talk about that as winning and as necessary and as ambiguous.

That, to me, that spirit, that thing that’s happening in that space is the thing that’s the real horrific instance of evil and it’s not because it’s more evil or less evil than killing and torturing a kid and satanic ritual abuse, there are distinctions there and I think it’s important to notice them. It’s just that we greet it, we greet it with an enthusiasm and that, to me, is really, really messed up and it’s something that we really need to look at and that is hidden from us, that’s a conspiracy all on its own, why we celebrate that kind of thing.

I don’t think it’s good to just, and I’m not saying you’re doing this, but I’m going to use a forceful word, I don’t think it’s good to retreat or hide in ambiguity or the idea of complex decisions, when it comes to that sort of thing. We have decided, unconsciously, but then have decided to go along with a culture that says that that’s okay and that’s ambiguous and we have decided so deeply, that we rarely even try to get ourselves out of situations like that or pull ourselves back from it or try to dial down the way that we do that in the world, the way that we export murder and torture across the entire planet. And a lot of nations do it, it’s not just us, but let’s take responsibility for the one we’re in.

Alex Tsakiris: I get you and it’s a point well taken and rather than, kind of defend myself, because you’ve got a point and there’s no question about it.

The one thing I would add to that though is, I was coming at it from, it clarifies evil, and that, I think, we agree.

Conner Habib: Yes.

Alex Tsakiris: A lot of my efforts, I guess, has been wanting to grab atheistic people by the shirt collar, whether they be Heather Berg at USC with her phony baloney job or some atheist who doesn’t even… I know, you’re going to get a lot of shit from Heather. She’s welcome to come on the show, it’s just ridiculous that someone would say those kinds of crazy things.

But anyways, to shake those people by the shirt collar and say, “There is a larger spiritual reality and you’ve got to swim in that pond before you can even begin to deal with some of this stuff.”

So, it’s almost like, you see one entry point and I see another entry point. I see the entry point as being provocative in saying, “Yes, satanic ritual abuse. Look there, it’s real and it goes all the way up in the White House and not just the Trump White House, but the Obama White House, the Bush White House and over and over and over again.” So, it’s like, that to me is the doorway to saying, well some people will say, “Oh, I do need to wake up to that,” versus I think it is harder for people to wake up to the drone strike, which is an extension of the firebombing of Tokyo, which is an extension of the holocaust of the Druids by the Romans, which is an extension of… We’ve seen all of that shit before.

Conner Habib: Yeah, and I don’t want to dismiss the ritual abuse stuff or other instances of human sacrifice and strange occult acts of black magic in high places as not interesting, they’re very interesting and I think that the way that you just said it, where you say it clarifies what evil is, that’s a really interesting way of looking at it.

I think people tend to think of evil as like, “Oh well, you know, everybody’s just wounded and they’re just acting out of their wounds,” no that’s bullshit and you and I both know that that’s bullshit, and I’ve heard you talk about it and say, “No, that’s bullshit.” It is total bullshit.

What’s happening when someone’s evil is that they’ve reached a state where they understand their wounds and they’re still deciding intentionally to align themselves with certain forces, in our cosmos and in our world, to… I think the way Mark Booth might have said it, I love using him as an example because he says so much and so eloquently, is that, as counterforces to the evolution of humanity. We can unpack evolution of humanity and counterforces and all of that kind of stuff, if you want, but essentially it means, I’m aligning myself with beings that want to undo love and compassion in the world and I’ve done that intentionally, and freedom and free will, and I’ve done that intentionally.  

This is going to sound strange, but someone can murder somebody, and it won’t be evil, because they’re doing it because they’re crazy and they’re compulsive and they’re acting [unclear 01:34:48]. They might be in the sway of something that’s evil, but they themselves are outside of their own free will. Evil, I think, requires free will, because evil requires intention, otherwise it’s reflexive, it’s compulsive.

So, evil is rare but it’s horrific when it happens, and I think that both the satanic ritual abuse stuff and wars, at a certain point up the ladder, are acts of evil. Whether everybody involved in those acts are evil people and are doing evil themselves and not just, sort of, in the sway of something, as if they’re hypnotized or in a trance, that’s a different question.

0:05 – 0:11 I’m sorry I don’t want to be an emperor

0:08 – 0:13 I don’t want to rule or conquer anyone

0:11 – 0:15 I should like to help everyone if

0:13 – 0:17 possible we all want to help one another

0:15 – 0:19 human beings are like that we want to

0:17 – 0:20 live by each other’s happiness not by

0:19 – 0:22 each other’s misery

0:20 – 0:24 we don’t want to hate and despise one

0:22 – 0:25 another in this world is room for

0:24 – 0:29 everyone and the good earth is rich and

0:25 – 0:32 can provide for everyone the way of life

0:29 – 0:35 can be free and beautiful but we have

0:32 – 0:39 lost the way greed has poisoned men’s

0:35 – 0:42 souls so if you are materialistically

0:39 – 0:46 focused and you’re disconnected from the

0:42 – 0:49 spiritual compassionate part we can all

0:46 – 0:52 see that and point at that and go oh how

0:49 – 0:57 terrible but when we see the Atheist

0:52 – 0:59 Heather Berg us see disconnect were

0:57 – 1:03 unable to do – it’s the same and say

0:59 – 1:08 well your compassion is disconnected

1:03 – 1:10 from the deeper spiritual reality cries

1:08 – 1:12 out for universal brotherhood for the

1:10 – 1:14 unity of us all even now my voice is

1:12 – 1:16 reaching millions throughout the world

1:14 – 1:19 millions of despairing men women and

1:16 – 1:22 little children victims of a system that

1:19 – 1:25 makes men torture and imprison innocent

1:22 – 1:28 ask ourselves consistently am i evil

1:25 – 1:29 it’s it’s almost like the opposite of

1:28 – 1:32 gift you can ask yourself if you’re

1:29 – 1:34 crazy then you’re not crazy if you can

1:32 – 1:36 ask yourself if you’re evil then you

1:34 – 1:38 actually do have the potential to become

1:36 – 1:39 evil because if you never ask then

1:38 – 1:41 you’re just in this way of compulsive

1:39 – 1:43 sleepwalking forces like everybody else

1:41 – 1:45 and you know nothing you do is really

1:43 – 1:47 evil but also nothing you do is really

1:45 – 1:49 good like you’re not really acting out

1:47 – 1:51 of intention at all so you’re not really

1:49 – 1:54 able to extend to love and compassion

1:51 – 1:56 for real and an intentional purposeful

1:54 – 1:58 and meaningful way to people and that is

1:56 – 2:00 the gift of the possibility of evil to

1:58 – 2:03 us that’s the gift of free will to us is

2:00 – 2:06 that the separation the ability to do

2:03 – 2:07 evil means that if we look at that we

2:06 – 2:10 ask ourselves that that we can do good

2:07 – 2:13 in the world I have an interview coming

2:10 – 2:15 up in a minute with Connor Habib and you

2:13 – 2:19 just heard both of us talking over the

2:15 – 2:22 very great and famous Charlie Chaplin

2:19 – 2:24 clip from the Great Dictator and while I

2:22 – 2:28 almost feel like we can’t possibly do

2:24 – 2:30 justice to a clip like that I did want

2:28 – 2:32 to set the stage for a discussion that I

2:30 – 2:35 feel like has been going on in the

2:32 – 2:37 background here on skeptic Oh for a

2:35 – 2:41 while and that is the link or maybe

2:37 – 2:45 better said the disconnect between

2:41 – 2:46 spirituality and progressive social

2:45 – 2:49 thinking I mean when you listen to

2:46 – 2:52 Charlie Chaplin who the heck disagrees

2:49 – 2:56 with any of that but at the same time

2:52 – 2:59 does anything Charlie Chaplin is saying

2:56 – 3:03 there does any of that make any sense if

2:59 – 3:05 there isn’t a larger spiritual reality

3:03 – 3:07 so in this interview we talked about

3:05 – 3:09 that it takes us a little while to get

3:07 – 3:12 there there’s a lot other things that

3:09 – 3:13 Connor and I talked about it was a great

3:12 – 3:15 chat a really interesting chat and I

3:13 – 3:17 appreciate having the opportunity to

3:15 – 3:19 talk to Connor since I’ve known him for

3:17 – 3:23 quite some time and he’s never been on

3:19 – 3:25 skeptic oh hey one other note I do so

3:23 – 3:28 appreciate everyone connecting with me

3:25 – 3:29 it’s been awesome if you

3:28 – 3:32 haven’t heard I guess I’m putting out

3:29 – 3:35 the word there that I’m here and I’d

3:32 – 3:37 love to hear from you and while I’m at

3:35 – 3:39 it I guess I’d also put out the word

3:37 – 3:41 that let your friends know about skeptic

3:39 – 3:44 oh I know many of you have but they

3:41 – 3:48 probably forgot I’d love to grow this

3:44 – 3:51 community only as much as it’s supposed

3:48 – 3:52 to grow so as I just said that I take

3:51 – 3:55 that back

3:52 – 3:58 don’t tell anyone about skeptic oh that

3:55 – 4:00 isn’t supposed to know about it but if

3:58 – 4:02 you know someone who is supposed to know

4:00 – 4:06 about it who’s supposed to come in here

4:02 – 4:10 and join our dialogue please let them

4:06 – 4:11 know okay on to my interview with Connor

4:10 – 4:17 a beep

4:11 – 4:17 [Music]

4:19 – 4:22 [Music]

4:23 – 4:29 today we welcome Connor Habib to skeptic

4:26 – 4:32 Oh Connor is an author lecturer and host

4:29 – 4:35 of against everyone with Connor Habib

4:32 – 4:38 which you will find on YouTube and also

4:35 – 4:41 he has a download of it in podcast form

4:38 – 4:44 so Connor welcome to sceptical thanks

4:41 – 4:45 for joining me thanks Alex I should

4:44 – 4:48 correct you and you should start over

4:45 – 4:50 because it’s mostly a podcast now you

4:48 – 4:53 can only get the youtube if you are a

4:50 – 4:59 patreon patron I just changed that like

4:53 – 5:02 a week ago I’m not gonna because it’s

4:59 – 5:04 how you sucker people in I thought you

5:02 – 5:08 have the ten minutes there and then you

5:04 – 5:09 say hey oh yeah okay good alright I

5:08 – 5:11 should have I shouldn’t have stopped you

5:09 – 5:14 you know what you’re doing you’re better

5:11 – 5:16 at that fart than I am we can talk a

5:14 – 5:18 little bit about that it’s it’s you get

5:16 – 5:20 some really good guests on there and

5:18 – 5:22 it’s pretty amazing and I was on there

5:20 – 5:24 you were so nice to have me on there and

5:22 – 5:28 I really enjoyed it I think we had a

5:24 – 5:31 great conversation you are really quite

5:28 – 5:33 good at asking these questions and

5:31 – 5:35 bringing these dialogues in places where

5:33 – 5:38 a lot of people don’t go and that’s why

5:35 – 5:40 I was so excited to have you on but I

5:38 – 5:43 had to say you know when we set this up

5:40 – 5:46 I could have sworn that you had been on

5:43 – 5:48 sceptical before because we’ve known

5:46 – 5:50 each other for a long time and we’ve had

5:48 – 5:52 all these great conversations and then I

5:50 – 5:57 checked and you hadn’t and I felt like

5:52 – 6:01 wow what am i doing yeah well I’m glad

5:57 – 6:02 you notice that discrepancy because I’ve

6:01 – 6:04 been listening to show I mean I probably

6:02 – 6:07 listen almost every episode at this

6:04 – 6:08 point which by now is a lot and I’ve

6:07 – 6:12 been listening to it for years and years

6:08 – 6:14 and our first conversation was you know

6:12 – 6:17 when I had this sort of you know failed

6:14 – 6:18 attempt to start a podcast years ago

6:17 – 6:20 and I was a big skeptic of offend I

6:18 – 6:22 interviewed you and we just talked about

6:20 – 6:24 we talked about science we talked a lot

6:22 – 6:27 about Richard Dawkins it seems things

6:24 – 6:29 have come a long way since we got

6:27 – 6:31 instead of that conversation

6:29 – 6:33 and it seems like our concerns are not

6:31 – 6:34 the same well I mean we still are

6:33 – 6:37 concerned about that but we’ve kind of

6:34 – 6:40 moved past those that kind of focus you

6:37 – 6:42 know I do have to look back every now

6:40 – 6:46 and then and say wow you know maybe we

6:42 – 6:48 all have collectively accomplished

6:46 – 6:50 something in terms of moving the ball

6:48 – 6:53 forward a little bit in that you know it

6:50 – 6:57 just came up again today when not today

6:53 – 7:01 but recently someone sent me a link to

6:57 – 7:01 Bernardo Kastrup friend of the show hmm

7:01 – 7:05 a great writer

7:01 – 7:08 in he was kind of railing against some

7:05 – 7:10 skeptics and it just didn’t Bernardo was

7:08 – 7:13 totally in the right and it was just

7:10 – 7:15 irresponsible what had been done but you

7:13 – 7:18 know it didn’t have this quite the same

7:15 – 7:21 teeth to it on either side I mean it was

7:18 – 7:24 just so clearly that obvious that the

7:21 – 7:26 skeptics had no place to stand they

7:24 – 7:33 weren’t getting any traction with their

7:26 – 7:36 outraging or big stupid and it just did

7:33 – 7:40 feel like wow that that thing is over

7:36 – 7:43 yeah you know sometimes I wonder is it

7:40 – 7:45 over or are we just not paying attention

7:43 – 7:47 to it but it certainly is not looming as

7:45 – 7:49 large in the cultural conversation in an

7:47 – 7:53 urgent way anymore that is for sure and

7:49 – 7:55 I don’t know exactly why I mean well I

7:53 – 7:57 do know why for some reasons but I don’t

7:55 – 7:59 know the total reason why and then be

7:57 – 8:02 interesting to sort of think about

7:59 – 8:06 because I think people still do have

8:02 – 8:10 majorly dismissive attitudes towards

8:06 – 8:13 spirituality and the paranormal and the

8:10 – 8:16 occult and consciousness that’s not

8:13 – 8:18 locked into the brain or created by the

8:16 – 8:21 brain and all that I think a lot of

8:18 – 8:24 people are very still dismissive of that

8:21 – 8:27 but it’s not like the urgency of that

8:24 – 8:28 concern has sort of subsided in some way

8:27 – 8:31 and there’s been a little more wiggle

8:28 – 8:34 room I would say for sure to talk about

8:31 – 8:38 these things now maybe not quite as much

8:34 – 8:39 in a university setting or you know if

8:38 – 8:42 you want to some sort of progressive

8:39 – 8:45 political plea but I still

8:42 – 8:47 I do think like something shifted and

8:45 – 8:50 then you you definitely you definitely

8:47 – 8:53 assisted that I mean honestly I’m not

8:50 – 8:56 just saying this to to praise you at the

8:53 – 8:58 start of your episode before we get into

8:56 – 9:00 it but it’s like giving your boss a

8:58 – 9:03 drink before the meeting but I do think

9:00 – 9:07 that like you know having such an

9:03 – 9:09 intense document of how near-death

9:07 – 9:11 experiences do and do not work that’s

9:09 – 9:13 just available to the public you know

9:11 – 9:15 it’s a great service even though you’ve

9:13 – 9:17 moved beyond that I’m the content of

9:15 – 9:18 this show I think just having that

9:17 – 9:20 document is really important because you

9:18 – 9:22 just point people to it now you know

9:20 – 9:25 well that’s that’s nice of you to say

9:22 – 9:28 and I appreciate it I’d circle back to

9:25 – 9:30 what you said earlier about you know

9:28 – 9:31 what the difference is because I think

9:30 – 9:35 it’s kind of a little bit of an

9:31 – 9:36 interesting side digression conversation

9:35 – 9:38 to have here before we get into the meat

9:36 – 9:42 of what we’re going to talk about with

9:38 – 9:45 you and I but the way that I think I

9:42 – 9:48 noticed the shift has occurred is those

9:45 – 9:51 people have kind of switched places with

9:48 – 9:55 us in a little bit in that there’s

9:51 – 9:58 almost a little bit of reluctance or

9:55 – 10:02 trepidation on their part to speak of

9:58 – 10:05 you know that kind of well I just I’m

10:02 – 10:07 proud to be an atheist biological robot

10:05 – 10:09 meaningless users you know they’re kind

10:07 – 10:12 of like looking around like can i really

10:09 – 10:15 say this or am i going to be the one who

10:12 – 10:18 looks like I’m the odd person out I

10:15 – 10:21 think that’s really what I noticed is

10:18 – 10:24 that there’s a different tone to where

10:21 – 10:25 they say how they say it mmm that’s

10:24 – 10:28 interesting I have to think about that

10:25 – 10:30 more for sure because I I think that

10:28 – 10:33 people are I think you’re right like

10:30 – 10:35 they’re not forthcoming in saying it

10:33 – 10:37 like that like it’s not we don’t live in

10:35 – 10:41 this like Daniel Dennett playground

10:37 – 10:44 anymore but I do think when when others

10:41 – 10:46 bring up spirituality or that the mind

10:44 – 10:48 does not equal brain they’re still

10:46 – 10:51 pretty quickly quick to be vocal about

10:48 – 10:52 dismissing it so they might not

10:51 – 10:54 volunteer it but they’re still right

10:52 – 10:55 there to shut you down bring it up which

10:54 – 10:58 is a

10:55 – 11:00 problem I think you know well in a way

10:58 – 11:02 that kind of leads into the first thing

11:00 – 11:05 I wanted to talk to you about because we

11:02 – 11:08 just spoke a couple weeks ago and I was

11:05 – 11:11 really excited to hear about this new

11:08 – 11:14 journey that you’re launching into in

11:11 – 11:18 terms of getting a PhD in a very very

11:14 – 11:20 interesting a thesis area that is so

11:18 – 11:23 right up your alley and I have to say

11:20 – 11:24 before this talk you had to kind of make

11:23 – 11:26 sure that I wasn’t going to release this

11:24 – 11:31 beforehand because this is like breaking

11:26 – 11:34 news and they’re kind of her beep world

11:31 – 11:38 out there so before we even get into

11:34 – 11:41 that and talk about your soon-to-be PhD

11:38 – 11:45 thesis and the new venture that you’re

11:41 – 11:48 getting into let me back up tell folks a

11:45 – 11:54 little bit about who is Connor Habib

11:48 – 11:55 yeah ok gosh there’s there’s a lot there

11:54 – 11:57 because I feel like I’ve lived a lot of

11:55 – 12:00 different lives

11:57 – 12:04 some of them clumsier than others but I

12:00 – 12:05 feeI so yeah so I host this podcast

12:04 – 12:07 against everyone Connor bee that’s my

12:05 – 12:12 main thing right now and that came out

12:07 – 12:15 of wanting to have serious discussions

12:12 – 12:17 about complex spiritual and

12:15 – 12:19 philosophical and political ideas

12:17 – 12:21 because those are often shut down when

12:19 – 12:22 they start getting deep it’s like you

12:21 – 12:24 talk about on your show where you say

12:22 – 12:26 well there’s the level one discussion

12:24 – 12:28 the level 2 discussion the level 3 the

12:26 – 12:30 level 3 almost never happens because

12:28 – 12:32 people get like stuck in the level 1 and

12:30 – 12:34 I always wanted to have those levels 3

12:32 – 12:36 discussions but I wanted to share them

12:34 – 12:38 with people in like an engaging way that

12:36 – 12:40 was accessible so it wasn’t also like

12:38 – 12:41 just keeping people out and it was

12:40 – 12:43 inspiring them to have their own

12:41 – 12:46 conversations cuz I hate small talk it

12:43 – 12:48 drives me crazy I mean obviously I can

12:46 – 12:50 do it and I do it a little bit here and

12:48 – 12:55 there but I want to get into the meat of

12:50 – 12:57 things you know and so um so that’s you

12:55 – 12:59 know that’s my sort of main focus right

12:57 – 13:01 now is having this show which I have

12:59 – 13:03 journalist I mean some of the I guess

13:01 – 13:05 the shared guest really it would be you

13:03 – 13:07 and Gordon white have both been on the

13:05 – 13:08 show and I haven’t I’m really

13:07 – 13:11 a lot of scientists yet but I have

13:08 – 13:14 political journalists writers artists

13:11 – 13:18 comedians musicians all that and I think

13:14 – 13:22 um so for me it’s about exploring ideas

13:18 – 13:24 now that came out of like that was my

13:22 – 13:29 that’s my most recent venture that’s

13:24 – 13:32 emerging out of having been sex workers

13:29 – 13:33 rights advocate and activist for 10

13:32 – 13:37 years and also having been born

13:33 – 13:39 performer for almost ten years and all

13:37 – 13:44 those things sort of meshed together for

13:39 – 13:46 me because I I’ve done this thing my

13:44 – 13:49 whole life where I’ve tried to be an

13:46 – 13:51 outsider to the community that I entered

13:49 – 13:54 into in a way because I think it’s

13:51 – 13:58 useful so you know I went to school for

13:54 – 13:60 grad school for creative writing and I

13:58 – 14:01 was also studying the sciences so I was

13:60 – 14:03 in the humanities by studying organism

14:01 – 14:05 akin evolutionary biology with Lynn

14:03 – 14:07 margulies at University of Massachusetts

14:05 – 14:09 so humanities and Sciences but then I

14:07 – 14:11 was also a very spiritual person really

14:09 – 14:13 getting deeply into the work of rudosch

14:11 – 14:15 Steiner particularly who’s still sort of

14:13 – 14:18 my headquarters and I know just came up

14:15 – 14:23 on your mark booth episode quite a bit

14:18 – 14:26 and then from there also then started

14:23 – 14:27 doing porn and sex work so humanities

14:26 – 14:29 but in the sciences in the sciences but

14:27 – 14:32 in spirituality in spirituality but

14:29 – 14:35 doing sex work and so all that sort of

14:32 – 14:38 outside earnest has created a weird web

14:35 – 14:39 of connections which with I think it can

14:38 – 14:43 feel lonely and frustrating sometimes

14:39 – 14:44 but also has allowed me to sort of see

14:43 – 14:47 connections between things that maybe

14:44 – 14:49 other people don’t get to see sometimes

14:47 – 14:52 or at least lets me sort of try out

14:49 – 14:55 ideas publicly through my life that I

14:52 – 14:57 think other people you know either

14:55 – 15:00 haven’t or haven’t really thought of

14:57 – 15:03 before and I mean I thought I’m I feel

15:00 – 15:05 like I’m sound like I’m like bragging or

15:03 – 15:07 something but I think it’s just true

15:05 – 15:10 about my life it’s an unusual it’s an

15:07 – 15:12 unusual life pathway I would agree I

15:10 – 15:14 think you bring an interesting

15:12 – 15:17 perspective on that and I would have to

15:14 – 15:19 add to the part about the episodes

15:17 – 15:22 you’ve done of against everyone

15:19 – 15:24 one thing I really appreciate about what

15:22 – 15:26 you do and I love the way you said it

15:24 – 15:29 you know it’s like you hate small talk

15:26 – 15:32 and I can so relate to that I mean for

15:29 – 15:37 my whole life I was like why are people

15:32 – 15:38 talking about such meaningless stop when

15:37 – 15:41 you’re a kid you know and people were

15:38 – 15:45 like advising you you know I never talk

15:41 – 15:49 about religion or politics right why the

15:45 – 15:51 fuck not isn’t that a hit spirituality

15:49 – 15:52 isn’t that fundamentally like the most

15:51 – 15:54 and but we all know that’s the most

15:52 – 15:55 important question however we feel about

15:54 – 15:58 it whether we’re a theist or whether

15:55 – 16:00 we’re the most Orthodox fundamentalist

15:58 – 16:03 whatever you know isn’t that it and then

16:00 – 16:06 politics or you know however you want to

16:03 – 16:09 position your head in terms of deep

16:06 – 16:11 state conspiracy or Republican Democrat

16:09 – 16:13 it’s the forces that are most present

16:11 – 16:15 and pressing on you on your life you

16:13 – 16:17 know like that’s so telling that that

16:15 – 16:19 would be the advice at least that I got

16:17 – 16:22 and I’m sure you being a kid in

16:19 – 16:24 Pennsylvania with that kind of I’m an

16:22 – 16:26 adult man like so when I went to grad

16:24 – 16:28 school you know this is the place where

16:26 – 16:30 it’s supposed to be where people really

16:28 – 16:33 go to learn and investigate questions

16:30 – 16:37 about culture and I remember like twice

16:33 – 16:40 I got sort of gasps and like inaudible

16:37 – 16:42 gasp from the other students in in class

16:40 – 16:44 and one was when I said something about

16:42 – 16:46 sex and another was when I said

16:44 – 16:48 something about God and without going

16:46 – 16:50 into all the details of that story I’d

16:48 – 16:52 noticed I was like huh this is really

16:50 – 16:54 interesting that these two things are

16:52 – 16:56 off the table but I know that all the

16:54 – 16:59 grad students for sure are thinking

16:56 – 17:02 about sex all the time and I know and I

16:59 – 17:04 know that also like God and religion has

17:02 – 17:06 had a role in their lives so what’s the

17:04 – 17:08 problem here we’re not even allowed to

17:06 – 17:12 really discuss it or go into it at all

17:08 – 17:14 and I think that you know what you

17:12 – 17:17 pulled on to is like politics and also

17:14 – 17:19 money you know these taboos like you

17:17 – 17:22 know as you point out again and again

17:19 – 17:25 like the taboos are constructed by our

17:22 – 17:27 culture and people and institutions and

17:25 – 17:29 forces of power in one way or another

17:27 – 17:33 over time

17:29 – 17:35 and so those are there for a reason it’s

17:33 – 17:38 not just some incidental thing like

17:35 – 17:40 don’t talk about politics what you like

17:38 – 17:42 don’t talk about sex don’t talk about

17:40 – 17:44 and so that’s part of why I want to have

17:42 – 17:46 those conversations is like it’s sort of

17:44 – 17:48 it’s sort of a counter you know I call

17:46 – 17:51 the counter cultural podcast but it’s

17:48 – 17:53 really sort of a counter power podcast

17:51 – 17:55 and somewhat it’s like maybe if we talk

17:53 – 17:56 about these things out loud and really

17:55 – 17:58 go into them it’ll aspire other people

17:56 – 18:00 to do that instead of just being like oh

17:58 – 18:02 you don’t really think deeply about

18:00 – 18:05 things or that’s depressing or that’s

18:02 – 18:07 not polite or you know whatever way they

18:05 – 18:09 use to evade it and keep in lockstep

18:07 – 18:11 with the kinds of conversations people

18:09 – 18:14 in institutions in power want us to be

18:11 – 18:16 having which are about bullshit yeah

18:14 – 18:18 that’s great and I just really commend

18:16 – 18:21 you because it’s really brave the way

18:18 – 18:23 you do tackle some of this stuff and you

18:21 – 18:25 know when I first encountered you and we

18:23 – 18:28 were just kind of talking like like you

18:25 – 18:30 said you interviewed me about skeptic oh

18:28 – 18:32 and it was a really interesting

18:30 – 18:33 interview you were on your game you’re

18:32 – 18:35 talking about all the right stuff and

18:33 – 18:38 then you know you kind of lay this whole

18:35 – 18:42 hey I’m interested in you know the sex

18:38 – 18:47 angle and by the way I’m a gay porn star

18:42 – 18:50 it’s like that is so jarring and it was

18:47 – 18:53 jarring to me – I can’t like pretend it

18:50 – 18:57 wasn’t but what was so cool is that I

18:53 – 18:59 got a chance to know you on this kind of

18:57 – 19:02 intellectual level even if it was just a

18:59 – 19:03 little bit and I was like how brave for

19:02 – 19:05 this person to kind of put themselves

19:03 – 19:07 out there and go no you know I just want

19:05 – 19:10 to talk about Rudolf Steiner and how

19:07 – 19:12 that relates to you know your ideas in

19:10 – 19:14 terms of extended consciousness and

19:12 – 19:18 runners and then by the way this is also

19:14 – 19:21 a part of who I am and I’m okay with it

19:18 – 19:23 and I’m okay with integrating it or I’m

19:21 – 19:25 still working on integrating it because

19:23 – 19:29 we’re all working on integrating all the

19:25 – 19:32 parts of us so I’ve always admired the

19:29 – 19:35 the bravery that you have in just kind

19:32 – 19:37 of putting it out there and saying let’s

19:35 – 19:41 see how these things fit and I think it

19:37 – 19:42 fits it backs up perfectly what you’re

19:41 – 19:44 saying

19:42 – 19:48 and in a way with that just being kind

19:44 – 19:53 of a little bit of a admiration society

19:48 – 19:55 it kind of leads into this ph.d program

19:53 – 19:57 that you’re getting involved with and

19:55 – 19:60 the thesis and I want to say thesis

19:57 – 20:02 because you’re not that far along but

19:60 – 20:05 what you described to me I thought was

20:02 – 20:09 so skeptical if you would you know so

20:05 – 20:11 perfect in in so as soon as I heard it I

20:09 – 20:13 was like wow how has no one done that

20:11 – 20:16 before why isn’t anyone explored that

20:13 – 20:21 which of course is the perfect you know

20:16 – 20:22 ground for a PhD so tell us let’s relive

20:21 – 20:24 that conversation we were having and

20:22 – 20:26 tell us what you’re thinking about in

20:24 – 20:28 terms of what interests you and tell us

20:26 – 20:31 about the ph.d program in general

20:28 – 20:33 because I want to help you you know make

20:31 – 20:35 that happen and I hope other skeptical

20:33 – 20:37 listeners can get behind your patreon

20:35 – 20:39 thing and help you make that happen

20:37 – 20:43 because it’s research it needs to happen

20:39 – 20:46 yeah thank you so okay so the very short

20:43 – 20:50 version of it is that I’m gonna get a

20:46 – 20:53 I’m you know PhD studying for little

20:50 – 20:57 beads a long time probably five years or

20:53 – 21:00 more doing research on how people are

20:57 – 21:04 stigmatized shamed and ridiculed in the

21:00 – 21:05 media by their families and you know in

21:04 – 21:09 other ways

21:05 – 21:13 for having paranormal and occult

21:09 – 21:17 experiences or being paranormal or in

21:13 – 21:19 called investigators so in one of the

21:17 – 21:22 ways in one of the things that sort of

21:19 – 21:25 like is strange about this is that even

21:22 – 21:27 though we know when someone has a

21:25 – 21:29 sustained paranormal experience so when

21:27 – 21:30 I say sustained I mean you know when

21:29 – 21:32 someone just says oh I was like thinking

21:30 – 21:34 about somebody calling me and then they

21:32 – 21:36 called we can talk about that in laughs

21:34 – 21:38 or if someone says oh I saw UFO once

21:36 – 21:40 even if that happens we can talk about

21:38 – 21:42 it in sort of a light-hearted way but if

21:40 – 21:44 someone has a sustained experience if

21:42 – 21:46 they’re encountering something again and

21:44 – 21:47 again and they need help or they’re

21:46 – 21:49 trying to interpret or understand the

21:47 – 21:51 experience then it enters into a whole

21:49 – 21:53 different dimension so first of all

21:51 – 21:55 that’s interesting to me why these sort

21:53 – 21:58 of levels of stigma and shaming have

21:55 – 22:01 but when the thing that’s interesting

21:58 – 22:03 about is that we consume narratives

22:01 – 22:06 about the paranormal and the occult and

22:03 – 22:08 the sort of strangely spiritual all the

22:06 – 22:12 time they’re hugely popular in the form

22:08 – 22:14 of horror movies and in Hoorn narratives

22:12 – 22:16 and so we flocked to those even if a

22:14 – 22:19 horror movie is bad it usually makes

22:16 – 22:21 money because people are really into it

22:19 – 22:23 and yet it’s also critically panned

22:21 – 22:26 right so this is something I noticed

22:23 – 22:27 from being from making porn this is one

22:26 – 22:30 of the association’s I made which was

22:27 – 22:33 like porn is wildly popular yet it is

22:30 – 22:36 never I mean except you know for a brief

22:33 – 22:38 moment really in like the 70s like

22:36 – 22:40 considered an art and art form think

22:38 – 22:43 really taken seriously and talked about

22:40 – 22:45 in a culturally critical thoughtful

22:43 – 22:48 investigative way whether you know good

22:45 – 22:51 or bad is just sort of dismissed you

22:48 – 22:55 know from from the get-go as an art form

22:51 – 22:56 and Portland horror movies experienced

22:55 – 22:58 the same issue where it’s just like

22:56 – 22:59 they’re critically panned and they’re

22:58 – 23:01 laughed at and yet they’re wildly

22:59 – 23:03 popular so to me I thought but has this

23:01 – 23:05 some word symptom

23:03 – 23:07 this almost seems like a strange symptom

23:05 – 23:09 of like repression we’re like their

23:07 – 23:12 depression is like rising to the surface

23:09 – 23:13 because we’re keeping these experiences

23:12 – 23:15 to ourselves

23:13 – 23:17 because we know that there’ll be

23:15 – 23:20 repercussions if we talk about them and

23:17 – 23:22 yet as a culture we celebrate

23:20 – 23:25 fictionalized accounts of these

23:22 – 23:28 experiences so those were sort of the

23:25 – 23:31 two parts that got me interested in this

23:28 – 23:35 big long-term project which will be an

23:31 – 23:38 anthropological project PhD in in

23:35 – 23:41 Ireland so that’s the other part I

23:38 – 23:44 wanted to be somewhere where questions

23:41 – 23:48 of belief and science were in a sort of

23:44 – 23:50 strange place because of the way the

23:48 – 23:53 religious landscape and this sort of

23:50 – 23:58 more materialistic landscape are still

23:53 – 24:00 evolving and unfolding there so yeah I’m

23:58 – 24:02 really I’m really excited to do this

24:00 – 24:04 project I haven’t started yet

24:02 – 24:06 I mean I’ve obviously done some pre

24:04 – 24:08 research and you know written out in my

24:06 – 24:12 research a project outline and all that

24:08 – 24:15 sort of stuff but and I’ve had a lot of

24:12 – 24:17 conversations about it with people who

24:15 – 24:19 have had paranormal experiences and I’ve

24:17 – 24:22 taken notes and also talked to some

24:19 – 24:24 investigators about it and I can talk a

24:22 – 24:26 little bit more if you want about you

24:24 – 24:27 know one of the conversations I had with

24:26 – 24:30 an investigator about it and where this

24:27 – 24:31 sort of came from if you want to maybe

24:30 – 24:33 we could get into that in a minute

24:31 – 24:36 there’s one other angle to it that

24:33 – 24:37 really intrigued me and I want to see if

24:36 – 24:38 we can have a little bit of a

24:37 – 24:41 conversation about it

24:38 – 24:43 because again you know you always bring

24:41 – 24:45 the sixth angle into this you know it’s

24:43 – 24:47 not something that I have to say you

24:45 – 24:50 know you’ve just made me kind of look

24:47 – 24:52 there in a way that is cool because I

24:50 – 24:54 wasn’t looking there before even the

24:52 – 24:57 last time we talked and you said yeah

24:54 – 25:00 and look at the sexual angle as it

24:57 – 25:02 relates to the paranormal then you go oh

25:00 – 25:06 shit what do you do with that what do

25:02 – 25:07 you do with the demon who raped me you

25:06 – 25:11 know right what do you do with the

25:07 – 25:14 positive angel who had intercourse with

25:11 – 25:18 me you know I mean suddenly and then you

25:14 – 25:20 had a couple of other cultural touch

25:18 – 25:22 points with that and I was like wow

25:20 – 25:23 there is a lot there to pull apart and

25:22 – 25:26 then you know the thing I’ve gotten

25:23 – 25:29 interested in a lot lately is the whole

25:26 – 25:32 et thing and some people are saying well

25:29 – 25:35 there’s an et spiritual transformation

25:32 – 25:39 kind of connection but then there’s also

25:35 – 25:40 the et sex thing you know and again if

25:39 – 25:43 you look it like you were saying in the

25:40 – 25:46 porn thing or if you look at the porn

25:43 – 25:48 literature you know that’s a super

25:46 – 25:51 popular topic I mean you’ve write about

25:48 – 25:54 how my encounter with Bigfoot man those

25:51 – 25:57 things go through the roof say Mikey T

25:54 – 25:60 or the reptilian super popular stuff so

25:57 – 26:05 you know what’s going on there in terms

25:60 – 26:07 of the whole spectrum of sex and the

26:05 – 26:11 extended consciousness realm do you have

26:07 – 26:13 any thoughts going in yeah so that to me

26:11 – 26:15 is so fascinating and it’s something I’m

26:13 – 26:17 gonna keep an eye on you know for as I

26:15 – 26:19 begin to do the research but I’ve

26:17 – 26:20 already sort of looked into it so for

26:19 – 26:22 instance

26:20 – 26:25 okay so here’s a really simple example

26:22 – 26:29 so my friend Mona Eltahawy who is on my

26:25 – 26:33 show a couple episodes back she’s an

26:29 – 26:35 Egyptian feminist writer she’s Muslim

26:33 – 26:37 and she’s like really into sexual

26:35 – 26:38 liberation and she brought up when I

26:37 – 26:40 told her what I was gonna do she’s like

26:38 – 26:42 oh well there are these you know women

26:40 – 26:45 Muslim women will sometimes say that

26:42 – 26:47 they’ve been captured or possessed by a

26:45 – 26:49 jinn or they’ve had sex with a jinn like

26:47 – 26:51 a genie and so therefore they can’t have

26:49 – 26:53 sex with their husbands anymore and we

26:51 – 26:54 both kind of laughed for a second and

26:53 – 26:56 then I said well isn’t it interesting

26:54 – 26:59 that we laughed and we just

26:56 – 27:01 automatically assumed that like what was

26:59 – 27:03 happening there was a way to sort of

27:01 – 27:06 escape the power that’s in the home you

27:03 – 27:08 know like maybe for some people it is

27:06 – 27:10 but like why should we immediately

27:08 – 27:14 disbelieve the person or you know

27:10 – 27:16 account after account after account of

27:14 – 27:20 people that have had sexual encounters

27:16 – 27:22 with or been it either consensual or

27:20 – 27:24 non-consensual with you know

27:22 – 27:27 supernatural entities with ghosts with

27:24 – 27:30 demons or you know how if you want to

27:27 – 27:33 make it not so supernatural or whatever

27:30 – 27:35 you could say you know with aliens

27:33 – 27:38 although I know they have a supernatural

27:35 – 27:39 aspect but so when you get into accounts

27:38 – 27:41 where people say that they’ve been raped

27:39 – 27:43 by a supernatural entity how do you

27:41 – 27:46 handle that in the sort of believe the

27:43 – 27:48 victims me too narrative is an

27:46 – 27:50 interesting question to me these are the

27:48 – 27:53 ideas that you believe the victims you

27:50 – 27:55 know when they say hey I have I’ve been

27:53 – 27:57 raped and you know maybe you don’t have

27:55 – 28:01 the all the evidence in place but it’s

27:57 – 28:03 important to believe me because a whole

28:01 – 28:06 history of silence around assault

28:03 – 28:07 victims has existed before this what do

28:06 – 28:09 you do with the people where the

28:07 – 28:11 assaulter isn’t present and you don’t

28:09 – 28:13 believe that the assaulter exists this

28:11 – 28:15 is a really interesting question to me

28:13 – 28:17 and it’s not and it’s funny because even

28:15 – 28:19 to bring that up people think that

28:17 – 28:21 you’re demeaning rape or sexual assault

28:19 – 28:25 by bringing these other accounts in but

28:21 – 28:28 to me that’s that tangle of questions is

28:25 – 28:31 so has so much that I can tell us you

28:28 – 28:33 know and I think you know other things

28:31 – 28:34 did you know another example I brought

28:33 – 28:36 up this woman

28:34 – 28:38 idak Roddick who around the time of the

28:36 – 28:41 World’s Fair here in the US she was

28:38 – 28:44 teaching women how to experience sexual

28:41 – 28:47 pleasure and she was hounded to death by

28:44 – 28:50 Anthony Comstock the guy who who ran the

28:47 – 28:52 society what does the society against

28:50 – 28:55 Vice or whatever the guy who is just you

28:52 – 28:57 know like making sure that nobody was

28:55 – 28:59 sending any information about sex or a

28:57 – 29:01 pregnancy or anything in the mail cuz

28:59 – 29:01 that’s that and you would arrest you see

29:01 – 29:02 here

29:01 – 29:04 she was hounded to death by him

29:02 – 29:06 literally she she killed herself because

29:04 – 29:09 she was hounded so frequently by him and

29:06 – 29:10 she said she was married to an angel and

29:09 – 29:12 that she had had all these sexual

29:10 – 29:14 encounter with an angel and people like

29:12 – 29:16 to dismiss that and say oh well she was

29:14 – 29:19 just doing that so she could stay single

29:16 – 29:20 and blah blah well maybe so but that’s

29:19 – 29:23 not the language that she knew she use

29:20 – 29:25 language of saying no I’m married to an

29:23 – 29:27 angel I have this whole sexual love

29:25 – 29:30 emotional relationship with this

29:27 – 29:32 spiritual mean and so and then of course

29:30 – 29:36 you know nuns are married to Christ so

29:32 – 29:39 you have like this whole connection of

29:36 – 29:43 supernatural paranormal spiritual and

29:39 – 29:45 also extraterrestrial events that are in

29:43 – 29:48 the sexual realm that people don’t think

29:45 – 29:51 of so I’m not the reason I’m I’m not

29:48 – 29:53 going there first with my investigation

29:51 – 29:55 is because that’s something that needs

29:53 – 29:56 to unfold and open up people feel

29:55 – 29:58 vulnerable about supernatural

29:56 – 30:00 experiences and paranormal experiences

29:58 – 30:03 and investigations they feel vulnerable

30:00 – 30:07 about their sexual you know encounters

30:03 – 30:09 and so you know I can’t depend on that

30:07 – 30:11 all just like showing up for me just

30:09 – 30:13 because I meet some strangers and say

30:11 – 30:16 hey have you ever had sex with a ghost

30:13 – 30:19 you know you can’t do that so I got a

30:16 – 30:21 sort of figure out is this gonna unfold

30:19 – 30:23 naturally and and all that but that is a

30:21 – 30:25 real concern for me and there’s

30:23 – 30:26 something I’ll investigate in literature

30:25 – 30:29 even if you know people aren’t

30:26 – 30:31 necessarily willing to talk about it you

30:29 – 30:34 know great yeah I’m interested to see

30:31 – 30:36 how that unfolds because I think if

30:34 – 30:39 you’ve already put that intention out

30:36 – 30:45 there to me it just seems like fertile

30:39 – 30:47 ground in in some ways in it is so so

30:45 – 30:52 interesting in so

30:47 – 30:54 unexplored taboo you know stigmatized on

30:52 – 30:56 top of stigma you know the stigma

30:54 – 30:58 paranormal and then the added stigma of

30:56 – 31:01 the sexual so it’s a very very

30:58 – 31:03 interesting stuff so tell people more

31:01 – 31:05 maybe about the particular you’re gonna

31:03 – 31:08 need a little bit of help getting to

31:05 – 31:11 Ireland to do this thing it’s quite an

31:08 – 31:15 undertaking but often you’re often doing

31:11 – 31:18 it right yeah I’m often to knit so I’m

31:15 – 31:21 starting it in 2019 we’re recording in

31:18 – 31:24 2018 murukku I’m starting in 2019 and

31:21 – 31:27 you know I mean that the the first year

31:24 – 31:30 is really a bunch of courses and then I

31:27 – 31:31 start doing the ethnographic work the

31:30 – 31:36 fieldwork and that sort of stuff and

31:31 – 31:38 that is that to me all that yes all that

31:36 – 31:40 I need help with so please support me on

31:38 – 31:43 my patreon if you like this conversation

31:40 – 31:44 do you like my show I haven’t paid as

31:43 – 31:47 patreon.com forward slash carne or beef

31:44 – 31:48 and you get all kinds of cool stuff just

31:47 – 31:51 for sort of contributing to the mission

31:48 – 31:52 there of I mean these deep discussions

31:51 – 31:56 and conversations and accessible

31:52 – 32:01 language but yeah I mean I think that

31:56 – 32:04 that work that begins that work that

32:01 – 32:07 begins this coming year yeah it’s a it’s

32:04 – 32:09 a it’s a long project and it requires a

32:07 – 32:11 lot a lot of work I mean that’s how

32:09 – 32:14 anthropology goes because you don’t know

32:11 – 32:16 if you’re gonna be able to secure all

32:14 – 32:19 the contacts that you want it moves and

32:16 – 32:21 shifts because it’s the only academic

32:19 – 32:22 discipline first of all so I’m the only

32:21 – 32:24 academic this one is it takes the occult

32:22 – 32:27 and the spiritual seriously I mean

32:24 – 32:28 really seriously on its own terms when

32:27 – 32:31 it’s at its best and it doesn’t always

32:28 – 32:34 do that but the other thing is it’s a

32:31 – 32:37 it’s a discipline based on friendship

32:34 – 32:39 you try you become friends with people

32:37 – 32:41 really you become friends with people

32:39 – 32:43 you don’t just fake it you know and some

32:41 – 32:45 some anthropologists are bad friends but

32:43 – 32:46 you become friends with people so you

32:45 – 32:48 can learn about their relationships and

32:46 – 32:50 yourself and the things that unfold in

32:48 – 32:54 those relationships and listening and

32:50 – 32:55 talking and so you don’t become friends

32:54 – 32:57 but I mean some people become friends

32:55 – 32:59 instantly but you don’t become friends

32:57 – 33:01 with people instantly so it’s a it’s

32:59 – 33:03 it’s gonna be a long

33:01 – 33:06 work that I definitely need some

33:03 – 33:08 assistance with this is this is I think

33:06 – 33:10 really interesting stuff and I think

33:08 – 33:13 there’s a lot of people will share my

33:10 – 33:15 interest in saying wow that’s really

33:13 – 33:18 something that’s gonna bear fruit and we

33:15 – 33:21 want to keep an eye on it but I have an

33:18 – 33:25 opportunity here as a gay arab porn star

33:21 – 33:30 i you have kind of a neoliberal ghetto

33:25 – 33:34 pass that i can’t resist taking

33:30 – 33:38 advantage of and engaging in maybe a

33:34 – 33:41 conversation on the on politics and

33:38 – 33:43 about some of the cultural things that

33:41 – 33:45 are going on that are really completely

33:43 – 33:48 different than what we’re just talking

33:45 – 33:51 about with regard to your PhD and in a

33:48 – 33:54 lot of ways don’t hit directly with your

33:51 – 33:57 against everyone podcasts but in a way

33:54 – 34:00 kind of do as well and that’s because

33:57 – 34:03 there is this unbelievable divide right

34:00 – 34:05 now and i think a lot of people are kind

34:03 – 34:07 of talking about it from the outside and

34:05 – 34:08 pointing at it and going wow what’s with

34:07 – 34:10 with this you know they’re it’s

34:08 – 34:12 impossible to have public discourse and

34:10 – 34:16 you know this group seems to be totally

34:12 – 34:18 off in some lala land and there’s no

34:16 – 34:20 getting together and so I thought we

34:18 – 34:22 might pull that apart and it’s

34:20 – 34:24 interesting because when we started to

34:22 – 34:26 have that conversation one of the things

34:24 – 34:29 that you said that again I really loved

34:26 – 34:32 I mean it’s so Conor in a perfect kind

34:29 – 34:34 of way in this you said well going into

34:32 – 34:37 it Alex both you and I realize that it’s

34:34 – 34:40 kind of all bullshit anyway cuz we’re

34:37 – 34:41 playing a consensus reality game and we

34:40 – 34:44 understand that in some way we don’t

34:41 – 34:45 fully understand consciousness is

34:44 – 34:48 fundamental and we’re creating this

34:45 – 34:51 reality and all this other stuff is kind

34:48 – 34:53 of a game outside of the game okay so

34:51 – 34:54 yeah so what that’s a good way to set it

34:53 – 34:58 because foundationally you’re saying

34:54 – 35:02 that we actually were on the same page

34:58 – 35:05 so now we can get into the particulars

35:02 – 35:08 yeah and fundamentally on the same page

35:05 – 35:09 and really you know and I don’t want to

35:08 – 35:11 kind of drive that point into the ground

35:09 – 35:13 but it’s like you’ve really got to be

35:11 – 35:14 grounded in that I mean I think you

35:13 – 35:15 really have to be grounded you know

35:14 – 35:18 you’re a

35:15 – 35:21 Rudolph Steinem you know and I’m not so

35:18 – 35:23 much but I’d sure appreciate where

35:21 – 35:26 you’re coming from in that in terms of

35:23 – 35:28 that being your foundation that being

35:26 – 35:31 your base and spirituality being your

35:28 – 35:34 foundation and base and you know Who am

35:31 – 35:36 I why am I here being the fundamental

35:34 – 35:37 questions you have to get back to so

35:36 – 35:40 you’re not going to get pulled too far

35:37 – 35:41 with any kind of political bullshit

35:40 – 35:43 because at the end of the day it’s all

35:41 – 35:45 political bullshit and we will never

35:43 – 35:48 know we’re not ruling the world and

35:45 – 35:50 we’re not have all the answers to how

35:48 – 35:53 all this stuff is supposed to happen so

35:50 – 35:55 there’s a humility that I think you can

35:53 – 35:58 enter that conversation with and

35:55 – 35:60 hopefully I can – right yeah I mean in

35:58 – 36:01 some way so it’s good that you’re

35:60 – 36:03 setting the stage this way because

36:01 – 36:06 really at the sort of bottom of all my

36:03 – 36:07 politics is like you know you really we

36:06 – 36:09 really need to ask ourselves the

36:07 – 36:12 question of what it means to be human

36:09 – 36:14 what it means to be a human being and

36:12 – 36:16 what exactly is happening here you have

36:14 – 36:18 to ask yourself phenomenological

36:16 – 36:24 questions questions about the experience

36:18 – 36:26 of being and then your your and then

36:24 – 36:30 your politics can stem and grow out of

36:26 – 36:31 there right but the thing is like part

36:30 – 36:33 of my experience of being human is that

36:31 – 36:36 I have become unmoored from that

36:33 – 36:40 sometimes you know and so it’s like yes

36:36 – 36:42 I make that happen but where I fail

36:40 – 36:43 where I can’t see those connections or I

36:42 – 36:45 just haven’t done the work yet or I

36:43 – 36:48 don’t have time I tried to have some

36:45 – 36:52 sort of ethical cohesion or sort of

36:48 – 36:56 philosophical like like some sort of

36:52 – 36:59 like intelligent intelligent philosophy

36:56 – 37:00 around things where the gaps are or just

36:59 – 37:05 say I don’t know you know like I don’t

37:00 – 37:09 know but yeah great so with that let me

37:05 – 37:12 jump into it from one angle which is you

37:09 – 37:14 know as you described in if people get

37:12 – 37:19 to know your work you don’t mind playing

37:14 – 37:22 the role of the provocateur and that’s

37:19 – 37:25 cool because I am right there with you

37:22 – 37:32 man I’m kind of you know you don’t say

37:25 – 37:33 about almost but there’s there’s

37:32 – 37:34 something good about that there’s

37:33 – 37:37 something about that that I certainly

37:34 – 37:40 respect so I guess I’m gonna kind of

37:37 – 37:43 push you a little bit and ask how much

37:40 – 37:46 of some of these stances that you’re

37:43 – 37:50 taking is you being a provocateur and as

37:46 – 37:54 opposed to you kind of trying to dive

37:50 – 37:58 deep into the underlying realities be

37:54 – 37:59 they political or conspiratorial or

37:58 – 38:03 however you want to look at it I mean

37:59 – 38:06 you sometimes pitch a lot of this commie

38:03 – 38:09 work is wrong work is bad kind of stuff

38:06 – 38:12 money is terrible I mean come on

38:09 – 38:14 that’s not that’s not all I mean because

38:12 – 38:16 at the same time you’re it’s like I just

38:14 – 38:18 listened to an interview or I read an

38:16 – 38:26 interview you did with what’s-her-name

38:18 – 38:29 Heather Berg yeah at USC I mean at USC

38:26 – 38:32 which is like this elite private school

38:29 – 38:35 just dripping with money and she’s you

38:32 – 38:38 know fighting for the working-class sex

38:35 – 38:40 worker you know I mean it just doesn’t

38:38 – 38:43 ring true on so many levels

38:40 – 38:45 and I think you bring true a little bit

38:43 – 38:47 more because there are some and justices

38:45 – 38:50 that have been done but I mean let’s

38:47 – 38:53 really pull apart the the money thing

38:50 – 38:54 let’s pull apart the work thing and I’ll

38:53 – 38:60 let you start

38:54 – 39:03 and then I’ll attack you viciously okay

38:60 – 39:05 so yeah I mean it so what you’re

39:03 – 39:08 referring to so I wrote and I

39:05 – 39:10 co-authored an article I mean basic it’s

39:08 – 39:12 a conversation between me and dr.

39:10 – 39:16 Heather Berg at USC called the problem

39:12 – 39:19 with sex workers work and in it like we

39:16 – 39:23 just the main focus of that is pulling

39:19 – 39:26 apart why work is why work sucks I do

39:23 – 39:29 believe that so let me walk back for a

39:26 – 39:31 second a lot of the stuff I say is

39:29 – 39:34 provocative the thing that I actually do

39:31 – 39:37 more than provoke though is I agree more

39:34 – 39:38 than I agree so on my show I try not to

39:37 – 39:40 diss

39:38 – 39:42 agree with people because I I don’t I

39:40 – 39:44 want to see what it’s not that I think

39:42 – 39:46 that nobody should ever disagree or that

39:44 – 39:49 that doesn’t give anything in the world

39:46 – 39:50 or debate doesn’t give anything but for

39:49 – 39:52 me it’s not so valuable for me I’d

39:50 – 39:55 rather see what happens on my show

39:52 – 39:58 particularly happy to disagree with you

39:55 – 39:60 here but on my show particularly when we

39:58 – 40:02 try to resonate with each other and see

39:60 – 40:03 what happens you know what can emerge

40:02 – 40:05 from finding the things that we’re

40:03 – 40:08 curious and interested about so I do

40:05 – 40:09 that more than I provide more than I

40:08 – 40:11 provoke on my show so a lot of stuff I

40:09 – 40:14 say that might sound provocative I do

40:11 – 40:16 believe him I do think that work is

40:14 – 40:18 nonsense I did an episode of my show

40:16 – 40:23 that was just a solo episode called work

40:18 – 40:27 and die which is about how you know work

40:23 – 40:28 work really kills I have the statistic

40:27 – 40:29 on the show and I can’t remember it

40:28 – 40:32 right now but the thousands and

40:29 – 40:34 thousands of people that like going to

40:32 – 40:35 work kills whether it’s on the job on

40:34 – 40:38 the weight of the job being depressed

40:35 – 40:39 you know because the job stressed out

40:38 – 40:42 having health problems because the job

40:39 – 40:44 or not having a job and searching for a

40:42 – 40:46 job and killing yourself because you

40:44 – 40:47 can’t find one whatever like there are

40:46 – 40:51 all these statistics done by different

40:47 – 40:53 labor groups and the the idea being that

40:51 – 40:54 not that we shouldn’t apply ourselves

40:53 – 40:57 with effort to things that we are

40:54 – 41:01 interested in but the demand from our

40:57 – 41:03 culture it from our government that says

41:01 – 41:07 work or starve to death

41:03 – 41:08 work or you know or or watch your family

41:07 – 41:11 die because they don’t have insurance

41:08 – 41:15 work or this work or that you know that

41:11 – 41:17 to me is what I’m defining as work is a

41:15 – 41:19 demand that you have to do things in a

41:17 – 41:22 certain way to make money which I don’t

41:19 – 41:25 I I don’t think that the solution to

41:22 – 41:27 that is right there for us I think that

41:25 – 41:30 we would have to take a lot of steps to

41:27 – 41:33 get there but my ultimate goal would be

41:30 – 41:35 that we don’t need to have jobs anymore

41:33 – 41:38 that we can start to reorganize our

41:35 – 41:40 culture in a way that is friendly to

41:38 – 41:43 actually not having the same kind of

41:40 – 41:45 economic system that makes those demands

41:43 – 41:47 yeah that’s fine it’s just completely

41:45 – 41:51 out of touch with reality

41:47 – 41:54 [Laughter]

41:51 – 41:56 we can’t break it down I guess my

41:54 – 41:60 problem with that is it does seem to

41:56 – 42:02 stand in contrast with the fact that the

41:60 – 42:06 phony-baloney lifestyle that we’ve

42:02 – 42:11 created in the West which is the most

42:06 – 42:13 prosperous life in recorded history has

42:11 – 42:17 allowed people greater flexibility and

42:13 – 42:20 greater freedom from the work or star of

42:17 – 42:22 reality than at any time in history you

42:20 – 42:24 know I like all these goofy reality TV

42:22 – 42:26 shows and I wonder watching all these

42:24 – 42:29 survivor shows a lot of times you know

42:26 – 42:31 but if you watch like alone which was I

42:29 – 42:34 love that show because it encompass both

42:31 – 42:35 the need that we have really to be in a

42:34 – 42:37 community and that when we’re putting

42:35 – 42:40 owned and made to survive on our own

42:37 – 42:43 it’s not just the survival lack of food

42:40 – 42:45 that gets us but it’s the lack of being

42:43 – 42:48 with other people and how we need that

42:45 – 42:50 but I digress slightly because what the

42:48 – 42:54 show ultimately reveals is that work or

42:50 – 42:58 starve is the reality that most people

42:54 – 43:00 have faced throughout time and also the

42:58 – 43:05 reality that most people on this planet

43:00 – 43:07 face right now so they’re just I want to

43:05 – 43:10 get too provocative but just to hear you

43:07 – 43:13 kind of talk when Heather talked about

43:10 – 43:16 you know how we shouldn’t work and work

43:13 – 43:18 should there is a worker stiver starve

43:16 – 43:20 reality that’s always been in place

43:18 – 43:22 aren’t you jumping a little bit far

43:20 – 43:25 ahead of the game it’s easier now to

43:22 – 43:29 avoid the work or starve reality than

43:25 – 43:31 ever before move to Portland get a dog

43:29 – 43:32 walk the streets and we’ll give you

43:31 – 43:35 another 400 hours a month just to have a

43:32 – 43:38 dog I mean there you go it’s it’s not

43:35 – 43:43 hard yeah so it’s not so so a few things

43:38 – 43:46 one is that when I say you know when

43:43 – 43:47 we’re comparing say certain indigenous

43:46 – 43:49 cultures that didn’t have the same

43:47 – 43:50 economic structure where it’s like okay

43:49 – 43:53 but if you don’t go and hunt and gather

43:50 – 43:55 you know or do you know minimal

43:53 – 43:58 agriculture like you’ll die because

43:55 – 44:02 you’ll starve what I’m talking about is

43:58 – 44:04 a system that’s set up by an outside

44:02 – 44:08 human constructed force

44:04 – 44:10 that same you know if you don’t if you

44:08 – 44:13 don’t engage in a wage and labor

44:10 – 44:15 relationship in a specific way you’re in

44:13 – 44:18 a lot of trouble right so like even just

44:15 – 44:22 thinking about how hard it’s been for me

44:18 – 44:24 to get to where I am so I I mean great I

44:22 – 44:27 have a patient on I spend a lot of time

44:24 – 44:30 in my day reading and writing and that’s

44:27 – 44:33 awesome and yet like I’ve had a lot of

44:30 – 44:35 time in my life where it was like am I

44:33 – 44:40 going to make rent am I going to do this

44:35 – 44:43 am I going to be able to that’s

44:40 – 44:46 competitive it’s a highly competitive

44:43 – 44:48 environment the fact that we’ve removed

44:46 – 44:50 that lower that lowest layer of

44:48 – 44:52 competitiveness I don’t know if that’s

44:50 – 44:54 good or bad and we can have an argument

44:52 – 44:57 about that but you’ve never had to

44:54 – 45:00 endure that kind of work or starve

44:57 – 45:03 reality that so many people face I’m not

45:00 – 45:05 saying boohoo poor me I’m seeing I want

45:03 – 45:07 that too I want that to be easier for

45:05 – 45:09 everybody else so like I don’t mind

45:07 – 45:10 taking that on obviously if I didn’t I

45:09 – 45:13 wouldn’t do it but I want everybody else

45:10 – 45:14 to have an easier time with it so while

45:13 – 45:16 I agree with you that some of the things

45:14 – 45:19 that have developed in our culture are

45:16 – 45:21 beneficial to giving us more time more

45:19 – 45:23 space more creativity I just want to be

45:21 – 45:25 better I just wanted to be better than

45:23 – 45:28 this even for everybody so it’s not a

45:25 – 45:31 question for me because I’m not I would

45:28 – 45:33 not identify myself as like a socialist

45:31 – 45:35 or Marxist whereas Heather would and I

45:33 – 45:37 think Heather’s really brilliant but I’m

45:35 – 45:40 not I don’t we don’t see eye to eye on

45:37 – 45:43 everything I wouldn’t say that we need

45:40 – 45:46 to get to like a perfect socialist or

45:43 – 45:48 Marxist like economic structure that

45:46 – 45:50 somehow takes care of everybody in some

45:48 – 45:53 glorious like Marxist thing where

45:50 – 45:55 everybody works in this sort of

45:53 – 45:57 collective solidarity way that feeds

45:55 – 45:59 back into this socialist system I don’t

45:57 – 45:60 that’s not I don’t care about that I

45:59 – 46:02 just wanted to be better for everybody

45:60 – 46:05 and I think there are lots of options

46:02 – 46:06 for it to be better so something I feel

46:05 – 46:08 much more alive with this is there’s

46:06 – 46:11 this guy named Fridtjof Bergman who in

46:08 – 46:14 Detroit he was noticing like okay

46:11 – 46:16 everybody is like unemployed here so

46:14 – 46:18 instead of talking about how can we get

46:16 – 46:20 them better jobs like let’s talk about

46:18 – 46:22 what can we do actually to sort of give

46:20 – 46:26 you value and meaning to your day and

46:22 – 46:28 also reconstruct the culture and an

46:26 – 46:30 environment that you live in without

46:28 – 46:33 just sort of jumping back into the

46:30 – 46:36 easiest you know default place which is

46:33 – 46:38 like get a job in a bank and you know

46:36 – 46:40 work 60 hours a week and all that kind

46:38 – 46:42 he was like no no we we have an

46:40 – 46:44 opportunity here for me that’s the

46:42 – 46:46 interesting project is like what other

46:44 – 46:49 options are available to us that are

46:46 – 46:51 better for people I I don’t I agree with

46:49 – 46:54 you that it’s out of touch with the

46:51 – 46:56 reality which is why it’s an important

46:54 – 46:59 project to me because a lot of times the

46:56 – 47:01 reality is really really difficult for a

46:59 – 47:03 lot of people you know and for me

47:01 – 47:04 personally of course I find it difficult

47:03 – 47:06 but I’m not going to complain about that

47:04 – 47:09 all the time I just want to make it

47:06 – 47:10 easier for people I want people to to

47:09 – 47:12 thrive I want people that have more

47:10 – 47:16 ability to like do all kinds of other

47:12 – 47:18 creative things I do too and I hear that

47:16 – 47:20 I hear where you’re coming from and I

47:18 – 47:23 guess what that stirs up for me is I

47:20 – 47:28 spent a lot of time in my life trying to

47:23 – 47:30 manifest that wealth you know and I was

47:28 – 47:34 able to do it but I spent a ton of time

47:30 – 47:39 investigating how to do it and I read

47:34 – 47:42 every self-help money-oriented get rich

47:39 – 47:45 the not get rich quick but get rich by

47:42 – 47:47 changing the fundamental workings of

47:45 – 47:49 your brains in your belief system and

47:47 – 47:52 all the rest of that and it really

47:49 – 47:54 educated me in kind of the you know one

47:52 – 47:56 of the classic books in this field is

47:54 – 47:60 the Rich Dad Poor Dad kind of thing

47:56 – 48:02 mm-hmm the whole philosophy behind Rich

47:60 – 48:05 Dad Poor Dad is a guy who grows up with

48:02 – 48:09 a poor dad a dad who’s intellectually

48:05 – 48:12 very smart has an advanced degree but is

48:09 – 48:15 like barely getting by and the neighbor

48:12 – 48:19 if the friend is the Rich Dad who’s

48:15 – 48:22 figured it out and the kid goes to

48:19 – 48:24 school and he goes hey I want to

48:22 – 48:26 manifest some of that wealth and he

48:24 – 48:29 started copying the the patterns and the

48:26 – 48:31 behaviors and really the belief system

48:29 – 48:35 of the Rich Dad

48:31 – 48:37 and I guess that’s what I’ve tried to do

48:35 – 48:41 as well I mean if you want to manifest

48:37 – 48:44 wealth go look at successful people and

48:41 – 48:47 talk to them not about what they do talk

48:44 – 48:49 to them about what they believe talk to

48:47 – 48:52 them about how they see the world and

48:49 – 48:55 you will find that you can manifest all

48:52 – 48:58 the things that you want not only money

48:55 – 49:01 but health happiness better

48:58 – 49:04 relationships all those things and that

49:01 – 49:07 to me is so ingrained in me as just a

49:04 – 49:12 reality of how the world works that it

49:07 – 49:17 pains me to see people take this kind of

49:12 – 49:20 radically just misguided idea that money

49:17 – 49:23 is the problem I mean you are such a

49:20 – 49:25 highly competitive guy to reach where

49:23 – 49:27 you are in terms of your ph.d program

49:25 – 49:29 that’s very competitive for you to

49:27 – 49:31 succeed in that world is gonna be very

49:29 – 49:33 competitive and then I say people like

49:31 – 49:35 you who jump over into this other realm

49:33 – 49:36 and start talking about work and start

49:35 – 49:39 talking about money you want to go oh no

49:36 – 49:40 I don’t want to compete there I want to

49:39 – 49:42 just you know kind of pretend like

49:40 – 49:45 everything should be different you know

49:42 – 49:47 that the whole thing should be oriented

49:45 – 49:50 at a different way and it’s not man it’s

49:47 – 49:52 work or starve it’s competition it’s you

49:50 – 49:54 rise to the top or you fall to the

49:52 – 49:57 bottom and we’ve already made the bottom

49:54 – 49:58 not that bad like I say moved org and

49:57 – 50:00 get a dog and you get in order dollars a

49:58 – 50:02 month I mean move – there are some

50:00 – 50:04 countries that are better than this one

50:02 – 50:07 at that I think right but that’s not

50:04 – 50:09 good cuz it’s not good but go ahead well

50:07 – 50:12 no all I’m saying is that that like the

50:09 – 50:16 where the bottom is could be raised a

50:12 – 50:18 bit more but what I’m but what well this

50:16 – 50:20 is mine it’s a minor point compared to

50:18 – 50:24 what I’m about to say so let’s leave it

50:20 – 50:27 there for a second so the thing that the

50:24 – 50:29 the thing that you’re saying okay I

50:27 – 50:31 agree with a lot of what you’re saying

50:29 – 50:32 which is like talk to successful people

50:31 – 50:34 about their mindset all that sort of

50:32 – 50:36 stuff I think that that’s really

50:34 – 50:39 important and I think one of the hugest

50:36 – 50:41 feelings of leftist politics the in fact

50:39 – 50:42 the failing I would say is that it’s

50:41 – 50:44 left it

50:42 – 50:47 that is that spirituality does not exist

50:44 – 50:48 there by and large it’s it’s absence or

50:47 – 50:50 a conscious engagement with spirituality

50:48 – 50:54 doesn’t exist there by and large and so

50:50 – 50:56 all this sort of New Age self-help stuff

50:54 – 50:57 you know that I still have a hard time

50:56 – 50:60 even talking about with that laughing at

50:57 – 51:04 it because of my own like in ingrained

50:60 – 51:06 stigma is like I I think that that stuff

51:04 – 51:08 is so important and in fact a huge

51:06 – 51:09 turnaround moment in my life was when I

51:08 – 51:10 was like you know I should probably

51:09 – 51:13 start listening to these people right

51:10 – 51:16 but if we accept that as part of how the

51:13 – 51:18 world works which I do now if that were

51:16 – 51:20 available to everybody it surely would

51:18 – 51:22 change the economic system so like if

51:20 – 51:25 everybody was thinking in this sort of

51:22 – 51:26 wealth consciousness self-help like out

51:25 – 51:29 it’s just not that’s just not that’s not

51:26 – 51:33 how it works Conor again how can you go

51:29 – 51:36 from being having this kind of expansive

51:33 – 51:37 world view of how everything can be

51:36 – 51:40 better if we raise everyone’s

51:37 – 51:43 consciousness if we all start thinking

51:40 – 51:46 in a more fruitful productive way and

51:43 – 51:49 then switch gears and get back into the

51:46 – 51:51 scarcity model of saying oh yeah but if

51:49 – 51:54 everyone did that it’s like that’s not

51:51 – 51:56 how it works just manifest more for

51:54 – 51:59 yourself in your life and help other

51:56 – 52:03 people manifest more and everything will

51:59 – 52:04 take care of itself well see but I agree

52:03 – 52:05 with that statement you just made but I

52:04 – 52:08 don’t think it was what you were saying

52:05 – 52:10 before what is it and maybe it’s because

52:08 – 52:11 I misunderstand what you’re saying or

52:10 – 52:14 maybe because we have an actual

52:11 – 52:17 disagreement here I think that first of

52:14 – 52:18 all a lot of people are wounded by the

52:17 – 52:22 way we talk about things in this culture

52:18 – 52:24 right so and some of its personal

52:22 – 52:27 responsibility and some of its a genuine

52:24 – 52:29 cultural wound where that kind of stuff

52:27 – 52:31 doesn’t feel as readily accessible to

52:29 – 52:33 people for all sorts of reasons like

52:31 – 52:37 this kind of this mindset this attitude

52:33 – 52:39 this abundance wealth stuff that for a

52:37 – 52:42 lot of reasons is prohibitive for people

52:39 – 52:43 now I’m not saying I’m not saying that

52:42 – 52:44 they can’t get there and I think that

52:43 – 52:46 that’s actually a really shitty

52:44 – 52:48 statement to say that they couldn’t ever

52:46 – 52:51 possibly imagine that I think that that

52:48 – 52:53 actually is really wrong but I’m seeing

52:51 – 52:55 that there’s a lot of reasons why that

52:53 – 52:58 people have a hard time embracing that

52:55 – 53:00 I understand how that works well it’s

52:58 – 53:04 not like I think I think that I think

53:00 – 53:06 it’s actually the same so but what so I

53:04 – 53:07 just want to acknowledge that that it’s

53:06 – 53:09 more difficult for some people than

53:07 – 53:11 others to be able to access that so like

53:09 – 53:14 I don’t want to acknowledge that I don’t

53:11 – 53:16 want to go there because in the same way

53:14 – 53:17 I’m interested in how you respond I’m

53:16 – 53:19 sorry to be peppering you with questions

53:17 – 53:22 and that’s okay people hate when I do

53:19 – 53:25 this but I do it anyway I’m fine with it

53:22 – 53:28 I drew I drew you into the spiritual

53:25 – 53:30 kind of thing and you jumped right on

53:28 – 53:31 there which i think is awesome and

53:30 – 53:34 that’s where we meet and have this kind

53:31 – 53:37 of synergy so it’s like you know if we

53:34 – 53:40 were to say what you were just saying

53:37 – 53:44 and then said substituted their

53:40 – 53:47 fundamentalist Christian or radical

53:44 – 53:49 Muslim or fundamentalist Muslim or

53:47 – 53:51 whatever you want to say people would

53:49 – 53:55 take offense and say oh you’re saying

53:51 – 53:57 that Muslims are unable to access this

53:55 – 54:00 greater spiritual reality that is

53:57 – 54:03 outside of their narrowly confined

54:00 – 54:05 cultural kind of let me make sure you

54:03 – 54:07 get my point because it’s like I don’t

54:05 – 54:08 think there’s much of a difference and I

54:07 – 54:10 that’s my point

54:08 – 54:12 I think culturally we kind of

54:10 – 54:14 compartmentalized and have these

54:12 – 54:17 different silos and say oh yeah you know

54:14 – 54:20 someone someone hasn’t been exposed to

54:17 – 54:23 which there’s an undoubtedly there’s a

54:20 – 54:25 reality of the fact that and I’ve worked

54:23 – 54:29 just a little bit with kids who are

54:25 – 54:32 homeless kids and you know talk to them

54:29 – 54:35 about money and about and it’s crazy to

54:32 – 54:37 hear the kind of belief systems that

54:35 – 54:39 they have because that’s all they’ve

54:37 – 54:42 ever experienced so there’s a reality to

54:39 – 54:45 what you’re saying no doubt but the

54:42 – 54:47 ability to expose people to that and to

54:45 – 54:49 change that reality and change that

54:47 – 54:52 belief system it isn’t this monumental

54:49 – 54:55 problem and it certainly isn’t framed up

54:52 – 54:56 as the problem what you guys are doing

54:55 – 54:58 is framing up the problem is completely

54:56 – 55:01 different and I think what what helps it

54:58 – 55:03 and is interesting to you and I is when

55:01 – 55:05 we do the same thing we would never say

55:03 – 55:07 that about someone who’s stuck in a

55:05 – 55:09 belief system that’s very limiting in

55:07 – 55:11 terms of being a fundamentalist

55:09 – 55:13 Christian or fundamentalist Muslim we’d

55:11 – 55:16 never say oh wow you know that’s a

55:13 – 55:21 belief system problem and that’s what we

55:16 – 55:24 need to attack well okay I’m I might say

55:21 – 55:26 that I don’t know but I mean I was more

55:24 – 55:27 talking about like so when you’re

55:26 – 55:28 talking about the homeless kids or

55:27 – 55:31 whatever I’m talking more about somebody

55:28 – 55:33 who has three jobs because they’ve grown

55:31 – 55:36 up in a culture that’s like made them

55:33 – 55:39 think that they have to have like you

55:36 – 55:40 know three five ten you know most people

55:39 – 55:43 don’t have time jobs but people that are

55:40 – 55:45 like working their asses off like 80

55:43 – 55:48 hours a week and like they don’t have

55:45 – 55:50 the psychic space to which you rest in

55:48 – 55:54 the same way that when someone’s really

55:50 – 55:56 anxious yes perhaps the problem perhaps

55:54 – 55:57 the problem is solvable by saying well

55:56 – 55:59 don’t be anxious anymore

55:57 – 56:01 but if you say that to someone who’s in

55:59 – 56:03 the middle of a panic attack it usually

56:01 – 56:06 isn’t very effective so all I’m saying

56:03 – 56:08 is that there are ways to communicate to

56:06 – 56:10 different kinds of people who are in

56:08 – 56:12 different kinds of life situations these

56:10 – 56:14 kinds of lessons and I think that we

56:12 – 56:18 need to develop those a bit more so some

56:14 – 56:20 part of my project actually is talking

56:18 – 56:22 to like let’s break it down to a

56:20 – 56:24 spiritual level like and say that these

56:22 – 56:26 are in some ways spiritual principles

56:24 – 56:27 when we’re talking well in a lot of ways

56:26 – 56:30 spiritual principles we’re talking about

56:27 – 56:31 you know wealth and abundance and

56:30 – 56:32 understanding money differently and

56:31 – 56:35 seeing the world differently and all

56:32 – 56:38 that kind of stuff I am trying to talk

56:35 – 56:40 to people that are have all kinds of

56:38 – 56:42 obstacles and and ways of prohibiting

56:40 – 56:46 those conversations from entering their

56:42 – 56:48 communities ie Marxist left this all

56:46 – 56:50 that what I find is that a lot of them

56:48 – 56:52 are actually really interested in these

56:50 – 56:55 caught in these conversations but have

56:52 – 56:57 felt for whatever reason that they can’t

56:55 – 56:59 let it in or they can’t embrace it and I

56:57 – 57:01 know that from my own experience as

56:59 – 57:04 being someone who laughed at this shit

57:01 – 57:08 his entire life until finally like three

57:04 – 57:10 years ago I was like you know you have a

57:08 – 57:12 lot going on for you your that you know

57:10 – 57:15 poor dad in the in the book that you

57:12 – 57:17 talked about like you went to school

57:15 – 57:19 you’ve studied with some of the greatest

57:17 – 57:22 thinkers in the world you have a lot of

57:19 – 57:24 really fascinating interesting friends

57:22 – 57:26 you have a degree of public respect but

57:24 – 57:28 you have never had your money in order

57:26 – 57:30 in your life why is that and so when I

57:28 – 57:32 finally dug down I was like maybe listen

57:30 – 57:35 to the people to talk about how to do

57:32 – 57:39 that a little bit more it did change my

57:35 – 57:41 life and I and and I still struggle with

57:39 – 57:43 it I think that there are unconscious

57:41 – 57:45 obstacles that are in my way I think

57:43 – 57:47 that I haven’t been as open as I need to

57:45 – 57:50 be so I’m taking some you know personal

57:47 – 57:52 responsibility and all that and in what

57:50 – 57:58 I’m presenting is well here but I just

57:52 – 57:59 think like yes go to put in another way

57:58 – 58:01 it’s like yeah we can talk to some of

57:59 – 58:03 these people that have been really

58:01 – 58:05 successful and then some of them they’re

58:03 – 58:07 really successful but they don’t give a

58:05 – 58:09 shit about helping anybody else at all

58:07 – 58:11 right I mean you talk about these people

58:09 – 58:12 all the time on your show there are

58:11 – 58:14 plenty of successful powerful rich

58:12 – 58:16 people who really don’t give a shit

58:14 – 58:18 about grinding everybody else sound into

58:16 – 58:20 the ground so there’s another component

58:18 – 58:22 there that has to do with compassion and

58:20 – 58:25 morality that’s not just about success

58:22 – 58:27 that I think is really important to

58:25 – 58:28 bring these conversations so for me when

58:27 – 58:31 I see somebody who’s struggling and

58:28 – 58:33 struggling with being able to allow a

58:31 – 58:35 spiritual concept of money or any

58:33 – 58:38 spiritual concept at all for that matter

58:35 – 58:42 into their lives I want to have the

58:38 – 58:43 compassion that helps them to to realize

58:42 – 58:44 that and understand that does that make

58:43 – 58:46 sense

58:44 – 58:47 I hope that seems on topic to you

58:46 – 58:49 because I realized I went a lot of

58:47 – 58:51 different directions there no it seems

58:49 – 58:53 totally on topic and I would relate it

58:51 – 58:55 back to you I hope people are following

58:53 – 58:58 this conversation or enjoying this

58:55 – 59:01 conversation as much as I am because I

58:58 – 59:04 would rewind to the point where you

59:01 – 59:09 talked about the inability of the

59:04 – 59:12 neoliberal eyes left to connect with the

59:09 – 59:15 spiritual part of that because I think

59:12 – 59:19 you draw it a good point so if you are

59:15 – 59:22 money focused materialistically focused

59:19 – 59:25 on manifesting that for yourself and

59:22 – 59:28 you’re disconnected from the spiritual

59:25 – 59:31 compassionate part we can all see that

59:28 – 59:36 and point at that and go oh how terrible

59:31 – 59:40 but when we see the Atheist Heather Berg

59:36 – 59:44 USC disconnect were unable to do the

59:40 – 59:48 same were unable to do the same and say

59:44 – 59:51 well your compassion is disconnected

59:48 – 59:52 from the deeper spiritual reality that’s

59:51 – 59:55 number one

59:52 – 59:58 and you are therefore disconnected from

59:55 – 60:01 this other reality which is the

59:58 – 60:05 spirituality of manifesting in your life

60:01 – 60:09 so it’s like she’s on shaky ground on

60:05 – 60:13 both sides because she’s occupying this

60:09 – 60:16 kind of secular atheistic work is this

60:13 – 60:19 detached from any kind of larger

60:16 – 60:22 spiritual context and then she’s also

60:19 – 60:24 detached from the reality of manifesting

60:22 – 60:28 and that’s the frustrating part for

60:24 – 60:30 someone like me yeah well I think that

60:28 – 60:34 that I think it’s a really good point

60:30 – 60:36 I’m cringing a little bit because others

60:34 – 60:37 is awesome and she’s a good friend of

60:36 – 60:40 mutton and I think she’s really smart

60:37 – 60:42 but but I understand you’re using her as

60:40 – 60:44 an example as emblematic of a certain

60:42 – 60:47 kind of thinking I think I think that

60:44 – 60:52 like the I think that yeah again it’s

60:47 – 60:54 like the the Marxist labor focus flaw

60:52 – 60:56 and I wouldn’t call those people neo

60:54 – 60:58 liberals but I do also think Nia

60:56 – 61:00 liberals have the same troubles in a lot

60:58 – 61:02 of ways with could is that it’s not

61:00 – 61:04 connected to spirituality for the most

61:02 – 61:07 part I mean there are some Marxist that

61:04 – 61:09 are doing it but I think that that’s one

61:07 – 61:12 of the major flaws well I am interested

61:09 – 61:15 in by the way just as a side note when I

61:12 – 61:16 talk about politics or when I talk about

61:15 – 61:18 politics with mark says when I talk

61:16 – 61:21 about it with socialists well I think

61:18 – 61:23 that they do really good is talk about

61:21 – 61:29 the rights dimension really well so they

61:23 – 61:31 talk about tactics and how and and why

61:29 – 61:34 human rights matter for everybody that

61:31 – 61:37 to me is like the gift of that kind of

61:34 – 61:39 thinking because I think that like we

61:37 – 61:40 need to talk about rights and we need to

61:39 – 61:43 talk about culture and we need to talk

61:40 – 61:47 about economics all in really coherent

61:43 – 61:50 and thoughtful ways and so I think that

61:47 – 61:52 the Marxist talk about the rights

61:50 – 61:53 aspect really really well so something

61:52 – 61:55 they’re really good at talking about is

61:53 – 61:57 like it doesn’t really matter if you

61:55 – 62:02 like somebody or like the class that

61:57 – 62:04 they’re in or whatever but you do but

62:02 – 62:06 you do need to grant them the same kinds

62:04 – 62:08 of human rights as everybody else and

62:06 – 62:10 their focuses I think is a little off in

62:08 – 62:13 that they locate it so squarely in labor

62:10 – 62:14 and labor rights but I do think that

62:13 – 62:16 that’s something that they’re really

62:14 – 62:18 good at and have developed a lot over

62:16 – 62:19 time so that’s why I’m interested in

62:18 – 62:21 them I don’t expect them to get the

62:19 – 62:23 spiritual principles right and therefore

62:21 – 62:25 there there are other perspectives are

62:23 – 62:26 gonna be skewed and not necessarily up

62:25 – 62:28 to snuff but that’s why I try to have

62:26 – 62:31 those conversations with them about them

62:28 – 62:33 and like I said I find that they’re all

62:31 – 62:35 actually rather interested in them and

62:33 – 62:37 sometimes I encounter somebody who’s

62:35 – 62:39 just like now that’s bullshit not stupid

62:37 – 62:41 and you know I just roll with it because

62:39 – 62:43 I’m like okay this is what a lot of

62:41 – 62:46 people say this isn’t you know you’re

62:43 – 62:48 weird dumb atheist arguments are not

62:46 – 62:50 there they’re nothing new to me and

62:48 – 62:51 they’re not like hurting my feelings or

62:50 – 62:55 whatever I just think that they’re wrong

62:51 – 62:56 and you know but I do find that they’re

62:55 – 62:58 they’re interested in those questions

62:56 – 62:60 they’re just developing that aspect of

62:58 – 63:04 themselves and so I’m just what I’m

62:60 – 63:06 willing to I’m willing to allow people

63:04 – 63:09 to like be in a in a developmental

63:06 – 63:12 process you know that’s that’s all so I

63:09 – 63:14 don’t mind when someone is like working

63:12 – 63:17 on the rights fear of our lives and

63:14 – 63:18 tactics and labor laws and all that kind

63:17 – 63:21 of stuff to improve the lives of others

63:18 – 63:24 as long as they’re willing to engage in

63:21 – 63:26 a curious conversation about the

63:24 – 63:29 spiritual stuff because I find that that

63:26 – 63:31 develops in them you know I what I just

63:29 – 63:33 want to say one thing real quickly about

63:31 – 63:35 my my sister I don’t really talk about

63:33 – 63:37 my family that much publicly just

63:35 – 63:38 because people give me so much shit

63:37 – 63:42 online and in the world that I don’t

63:38 – 63:44 feel like letting them you know get and

63:42 – 63:48 publicizing them too much so then they

63:44 – 63:51 get shit but like you know years ago my

63:48 – 63:53 sister you know she married a Catholic

63:51 – 63:54 so of course they were you know someone

63:53 – 63:56 was raised Catholic so of course they

63:54 – 63:58 were like staunch atheist and I told

63:56 – 63:60 them about Rudolph’s turn in

63:58 – 64:03 anthroposophy there’s a long time ago I

63:60 – 64:05 sort of put I brought it up and

64:03 – 64:09 she laughed at me I mean laughed in my

64:05 – 64:10 face and she brought her husband in and

64:09 – 64:13 he came in the room and he laughed at me

64:10 – 64:17 – he was like what that’s crazy and

64:13 – 64:19 stupid years later she works for an

64:17 – 64:24 anthropological organisation now and he

64:19 – 64:26 does – so meaning like I think that that

64:24 – 64:28 process it can happen in really super

64:26 – 64:30 and I never pushed them again you know

64:28 – 64:33 and now and I always send to myself now

64:30 – 64:36 who’s laughing you know but I don’t I

64:33 – 64:38 think that that process can be very slow

64:36 – 64:40 but I do think that these conversations

64:38 – 64:42 are really really important and I think

64:40 – 64:45 that like when they happen with a spirit

64:42 – 64:47 in a spirit of okay what does this Labor

64:45 – 64:49 Studies person saying that’s resonating

64:47 – 64:50 with me what can I give back to the

64:49 – 64:52 conversation that maybe they haven’t

64:50 – 64:54 thought about you know I think that

64:52 – 64:56 that’s really helpful I mean I really

64:54 – 64:58 knows I’m like taking skeptic Oh down a

64:56 – 64:60 route of like if we all just like have

64:58 – 65:01 really sweet conversations with each

64:60 – 65:04 other everything will be fun and I don’t

65:01 – 65:06 think that’s true either I just want I

65:04 – 65:09 just want to bring that to you I think

65:06 – 65:12 that’s great it’s true and it’s

65:09 – 65:16 consistent with who you are and what you

65:12 – 65:20 do on your show because it’s hard to do

65:16 – 65:23 that and maintain intellectual integrity

65:20 – 65:25 I admire that so I appreciate you

65:23 – 65:27 engaging in that dialogue so let me then

65:25 – 65:30 switch to kind of one other because I

65:27 – 65:32 think I didn’t really know where we were

65:30 – 65:33 gonna go and I guess I kind of ranted a

65:32 – 65:37 little bit there and you did a good job

65:33 – 65:39 of kind of grinding it back to what it’s

65:37 – 65:42 really all about which is this

65:39 – 65:46 disconnection with these spiritual

65:42 – 65:48 realities that we know are true because

65:46 – 65:51 no matter where you approach them

65:48 – 65:55 philosophically scientifically whatever

65:51 – 65:58 we’re forced to move past this crazy

65:55 – 66:01 atheistic materialism that is the

65:58 – 66:05 standard play for everybody so I shift

66:01 – 66:08 that discussion similarly as it goes

66:05 – 66:09 into conspiracy because that’s something

66:08 – 66:12 I’ve been dragged into for the last

66:09 – 66:15 couple years and people really don’t

66:12 – 66:19 like when I go there and

66:15 – 66:21 kind of they’re just not able to go

66:19 – 66:24 there in the back of their mind they

66:21 – 66:27 think there’s some underlying truth they

66:24 – 66:31 suppose to the fact that things aren’t

66:27 – 66:33 really what they seem that social

66:31 – 66:36 engineering really is at play at every

66:33 – 66:39 turn but they don’t really want to go

66:36 – 66:41 there and they just assume laugh it off

66:39 – 66:43 in the same way that you were talking

66:41 – 66:46 about I love the story about the woman

66:43 – 66:47 you were talking to the genie raped her

66:46 – 66:49 so she can’t have sex with resident in

66:47 – 66:52 the first reaction is to laugh ha ha ha

66:49 – 66:55 ha and then both eyes meet you’re like

66:52 – 66:58 is there any potential reality to that

66:55 – 67:01 at all and I think the same thing goes

66:58 – 67:04 on with the conspiracy stuff so if we

67:01 – 67:06 want to talk about you know feminism is

67:04 – 67:09 a great place to jump into it because I

67:06 – 67:12 think it connects to a lot of the other

67:09 – 67:14 social movement interests that you have

67:12 – 67:17 but I passed along to you because I

67:14 – 67:19 think it’s so significant so central to

67:17 – 67:21 this you know the Gloria Steinem thing

67:19 – 67:24 and I always bring up Joe at well

67:21 – 67:27 because I love Joe he’s just a great guy

67:24 – 67:28 I think he’s so smart and he’s drilled

67:27 – 67:31 into some of this stuff in some ways

67:28 – 67:34 that other people haven’t but Gloria

67:31 – 67:36 Steinem is CIA you know right and that’s

67:34 – 67:39 right not that’s like that conspiracy

67:36 – 67:42 theory that’s like a real feminist

67:39 – 67:44 finally investigated her and really

67:42 – 67:47 drilled into it and interviewed her and

67:44 – 67:52 nailed her on it and she had to say yeah

67:47 – 67:54 well I was CIA but hey I had to be

67:52 – 67:56 because you know the feminist cause was

67:54 – 67:58 too important and you know and a lot of

67:56 – 68:00 people that was that was enough you know

67:58 – 68:03 that was like oh yeah it was too

68:00 – 68:06 important and if that’s the only way she

68:03 – 68:08 could do it then hurray for that and and

68:06 – 68:10 we all kind of get there cuz it’s like

68:08 – 68:13 yeah there was a huge problem there in

68:10 – 68:15 our society but then when you

68:13 – 68:17 fast-forward and I sent you this link

68:15 – 68:17 and you go I had oh but she’s still at

68:17 – 68:19 it

68:17 – 68:22 and now she’s at it you know you have a

68:19 – 68:26 Syrian background now she’s at it in the

68:22 – 68:28 strangest CIA way again

68:26 – 68:32 where she’s protesting

68:28 – 68:35 against the rights of women in Syria you

68:32 – 68:36 know and it’s like it sounds good and

68:35 – 68:39 then you take a step back and you go

68:36 – 68:42 yeah but is it Syria I’m more

68:39 – 68:44 progressive than just about any other

68:42 – 68:46 state that’s around at any other Arab

68:44 – 68:50 state that’s around it and isn’t Syria

68:46 – 68:53 engaged in this death spiral battle with

68:50 – 68:56 Isis who wants to burqa eyes every woman

68:53 – 68:60 and just completely destroy their rights

68:56 – 69:02 isn’t that a curious position for Gloria

68:60 – 69:05 Steinem to take and then taking it

69:02 – 69:05 outside of that narrow context right

69:05 – 69:08 there

69:05 – 69:12 what does that say to the extent to

69:08 – 69:15 which social engineering right is at

69:12 – 69:19 play with all this stuff where we think

69:15 – 69:23 we’re there so so much of that going on

69:19 – 69:26 and I think that like if people don’t

69:23 – 69:30 want if people don’t want to jump in too

69:26 – 69:36 grand like huge conspiracy and take the

69:30 – 69:37 first step which is have a thought okay

69:36 – 69:40 so here’s something that I think is

69:37 – 69:43 progressive whether it’s feminism or

69:40 – 69:44 whether it’s you know something like

69:43 – 69:46 some sort of fights

69:44 – 69:52 some sort of identity politics or

69:46 – 69:54 another think about how people who are

69:52 – 69:57 not really great people could use that

69:54 – 69:59 against you just think about it take a

69:57 – 70:02 moment and think about it because they

69:59 – 70:05 will because people and people in power

70:02 – 70:07 and with the institutions in power in

70:05 – 70:09 alignment with as you talked about on

70:07 – 70:12 your show before forces including

70:09 – 70:15 spiritual forces that are you know

70:12 – 70:19 engaged in our behaviors and our actions

70:15 – 70:21 they will use anything they can against

70:19 – 70:23 us and one of the best ways to do that

70:21 – 70:26 is stuff that looks really nice on paper

70:23 – 70:29 on the feminist example is really

70:26 – 70:30 personal to me not because of the Syria

70:29 – 70:33 thing although that’s bad enough with

70:30 – 70:36 Gloria Steinem but because of being in

70:33 – 70:39 communities of sex workers right so

70:36 – 70:41 earlier this year there was a bipartisan

70:39 – 70:43 law but there’s a

70:41 – 70:45 there was a law passed by bipartisan

70:43 – 70:47 effort called the fight on line sex

70:45 – 70:49 trafficking Act or the stop enabling sex

70:47 – 70:51 trafficking and foster our sista the

70:49 – 70:54 sort of combined combination of two

70:51 – 70:57 versions of this bill and everybody

70:54 – 70:58 voted against it except for everybody

70:57 – 71:00 voted for it in the Senate for example

70:58 – 71:03 except for two people Ron Wyden and Rand

71:00 – 71:04 Paul and the whole thing was like well

71:03 – 71:06 we need to stop human trafficking we

71:04 – 71:08 need to stop sex trafficking we need to

71:06 – 71:10 both look great I want to stop sex

71:08 – 71:14 trafficking and human trafficking too

71:10 – 71:16 but as a sex worker I know that the law

71:14 – 71:19 conflates human trafficking with

71:16 – 71:21 consensual sex work okay or sex work

71:19 – 71:22 that people have decided to engage in

71:21 – 71:25 for a variety of reasons

71:22 – 71:27 so that’s number one but let’s take it

71:25 – 71:31 more to this sort of skeptic Oh angle

71:27 – 71:35 here the meet of the law was that the

71:31 – 71:39 government can seize or shut down any

71:35 – 71:41 website for the behavior of its users so

71:39 – 71:45 if on Craigslist

71:41 – 71:47 someone advertised for prostitution

71:45 – 71:49 which the government completes with sex

71:47 – 71:51 trafficking then the government can shut

71:49 – 71:54 Craigslist down even though Craigslist

71:51 – 71:57 had no control over what the user did on

71:54 – 71:59 its own site so through this law that

71:57 – 72:01 looks like it’s helping victims of human

71:59 – 72:03 trafficking under the guise of a certain

72:01 – 72:06 form of feminism which was supported by

72:03 – 72:08 like Amy Schumer and Seth Meyers and all

72:06 – 72:13 these celebrities were just complete

72:08 – 72:16 Blockheads now the government has carte

72:13 – 72:18 blanche to shut down any web site with

72:16 – 72:21 something that is beyond that website

72:18 – 72:23 you the web site masters control or the

72:21 – 72:26 owners of web sites control and that

72:23 – 72:27 they can they can it is so broadly

72:26 – 72:29 defined that they can do it whenever

72:27 – 72:31 they want to any web site whatsoever

72:29 – 72:33 which has had a massive effect on like a

72:31 – 72:36 lot of different sites in a lot of

72:33 – 72:39 different avenues so I’m using that as a

72:36 – 72:41 really recent impression example of how

72:39 – 72:43 these kinds of things happen it can

72:41 – 72:45 sound like the best law in the world

72:43 – 72:50 right and it’ll be backed up by an

72:45 – 72:52 amazing ideology of feminism and yet

72:50 – 72:54 what is it what’s actually happening

72:52 – 72:54 there what does that mean and so you get

72:54 – 72:56 the scene

72:54 – 72:59 thing with the Gloria Steinem bullshit

72:56 – 73:02 or how about like Betty Ford an you know

72:59 – 73:05 when she was like you know sometimes we

73:02 – 73:08 aren’t supporting Israel enough we a lot

73:05 – 73:09 of Israeli people that a lot of Israeli

73:08 – 73:12 women that we need to support because

73:09 – 73:14 the Palestinians well they’re really

73:12 – 73:16 into burkas and all that kind of stuff

73:14 – 73:19 no I’m not gonna get in gnashed in the

73:16 – 73:21 whole burqa no burka argument alright he

73:19 – 73:24 you know a job no hijab in the argument

73:21 – 73:26 but I am going to say like that was also

73:24 – 73:29 calculated and she pulled a lot of

73:26 – 73:31 prominent feminists into that into that

73:29 – 73:35 political realm so these kinds of things

73:31 – 73:38 are happening often and all the time and

73:35 – 73:41 that and it to me it’s like you just

73:38 – 73:44 have to keep that spinning in your head

73:41 – 73:47 hmm what could be what could be here

73:44 – 73:49 that might be used against me in this

73:47 – 73:54 progressive Club cause you did sound

73:49 – 73:56 like yesterday it was like Rob Lowe the

73:54 – 73:59 celebrity on Twitter said the yesterday

73:56 – 74:02 as of this recording said I saw Jeremy

73:59 – 74:05 Corbyn called Theresa May a stupid woman

74:02 – 74:08 and so whatever the hell you think about

74:05 – 74:11 Jeremy Corbyn or Theresa May the entire

74:08 – 74:13 like UK news media seized on that

74:11 – 74:15 because Jeremy Corbyn wasn’t a feminist

74:13 – 74:17 enough because he called Theresa May a

74:15 – 74:18 stupid woman again I don’t give a shit

74:17 – 74:20 about what your feelings are about

74:18 – 74:23 brexit or or a true some a in this case

74:20 – 74:27 I mean I do care but and I have my own

74:23 – 74:29 opinions on it but it’s like that it’s

74:27 – 74:31 so easily positioned people can seize

74:29 – 74:33 these things so that’s the that’s just

74:31 – 74:34 the first level of things then you bring

74:33 – 74:37 it up to the level that you talk about

74:34 – 74:40 on the show which is like there aren’t

74:37 – 74:42 people that are really calculatedly like

74:40 – 74:44 trying to make these decisions and bring

74:42 – 74:45 these kinds of things out and then you

74:44 – 74:47 take it up to the next level if you

74:45 – 74:48 really want to go there and talk about

74:47 – 74:50 well there are probably people behind

74:48 – 74:52 them too and then take it up to the next

74:50 – 74:55 level and talk about forces spiritual

74:52 – 74:58 forces whatever you want to say but I

74:55 – 75:01 think the doorway in is like that any

74:58 – 75:04 reasonable person can engage with is mmm

75:01 – 75:05 what might be what might be here that we

75:04 – 75:07 should think about I don’t think a

75:05 – 75:10 Russia gate thing is a very

75:07 – 75:12 obvious example that more and more

75:10 – 75:14 people I think are picking up on like

75:12 – 75:15 there might be some there might be some

75:14 – 75:18 problems with this whole like Russia

75:15 – 75:18 Russia Russia narrative interfering with

75:18 – 75:21 the election

75:18 – 75:24 I’ve been slow to come around to the

75:21 – 75:29 Trump bashing kind of thing because

75:24 – 75:33 Trump so represents this possibility

75:29 – 75:37 this dream that someone outside of the

75:33 – 75:39 system really can be outside of the

75:37 – 75:42 system and not write a counterfeit

75:39 – 75:46 which if you look deeply as I have just

75:42 – 75:49 recently into the crazy sexual shit

75:46 – 75:51 quote-unquote modeling agency where he’s

75:49 – 75:54 bringing over twelve to fifteen year old

75:51 – 75:58 girls and applying for these special

75:54 – 76:01 visas then his association with Epstein

75:58 – 76:04 which is much deeper and much more

76:01 – 76:07 well-established than anyone wants to

76:04 – 76:10 acknowledge in the media he’s right in

76:07 – 76:12 the middle of that whole sex thing and

76:10 – 76:15 it could be different for him than the

76:12 – 76:17 pedo thing that’s going on or different

76:15 – 76:19 than the pizza gate thing or different

76:17 – 76:21 than the satanic ritual abuse thing

76:19 – 76:24 which is something else we could pull

76:21 – 76:26 apart because you know you take satanic

76:24 – 76:29 ritual abuse and look at how that’s

76:26 – 76:31 processed through the society as I throw

76:29 – 76:33 those words out there’s a lot of people

76:31 – 76:35 out there I know who are going do you

76:33 – 76:37 mean the satanic panic right you mean

76:35 – 76:38 the thing that didn’t really happen

76:37 – 76:41 right

76:38 – 76:44 no go three layers deeper and you’ll see

76:41 – 76:48 that the children showed up with STDs

76:44 – 76:50 these preschool children show up with

76:48 – 76:51 STDs all the ones at the preschool or a

76:50 – 76:53 large number of them at the preschool

76:51 – 76:56 how does that happen

76:53 – 76:60 they show up with terrors anal tears and

76:56 – 77:00 other sexual injuries how does that

76:60 – 77:04 happen

77:00 – 77:08 so again but the narrative that needed

77:04 – 77:11 to happen was satanic panic there’s no

77:08 – 77:15 such thing as satanic ritual sexual

77:11 – 77:18 abuse disregard the fact that we have it

77:15 – 77:20 documented here and here and here and

77:18 – 77:21 with this cop and with that Detective

77:20 – 77:25 and all of

77:21 – 77:28 the place it becomes a rewrite of

77:25 – 77:32 reality and the reason I go there to the

77:28 – 77:35 satanic ritual abuse thing is because it

77:32 – 77:39 does launch us as you described kind of

77:35 – 77:42 three layers deep right yeah yeah well I

77:39 – 77:44 mean this the satanic panic and satanic

77:42 – 77:46 ritual abuse thing it’s worse than you

77:44 – 77:49 say because actually both those things

77:46 – 77:51 are true which is that some of it was

77:49 – 77:55 bullshit and some of it’s not and so

77:51 – 77:57 they used the stuff that’s bullshit to

77:55 – 78:03 convince us that this stuff that’s real

77:57 – 78:05 is not real and then and then the stuff

78:03 – 78:08 that’s bullshit ends up hurting a lot of

78:05 – 78:11 innocent people and it allows them to

78:08 – 78:13 control narratives about the occult and

78:11 – 78:15 the paranormal and spirituality in our

78:13 – 78:18 culture that any investigation of magic

78:15 – 78:20 or the occult or spirituality is like

78:18 – 78:23 going to be satanic and all that kind of

78:20 – 78:25 stuff so it’s leveraged in so many ways

78:23 – 78:28 and it and I think that the problem that

78:25 – 78:30 people have is like they’ll go to one

78:28 – 78:32 side or the other they’ll be like I was

78:30 – 78:34 all bullshit well sure a lot of it was

78:32 – 78:36 bullshit you know I’m sure that most

78:34 – 78:37 kids who play Dungeons and Dragons in

78:36 – 78:41 the 80s we’re not fucked up by it right

78:37 – 78:43 like some of them were right or like

78:41 – 78:45 some of that some of the abuse stuff

78:43 – 78:47 some of those abuse narratives were

78:45 – 78:51 bullshit and they ended up putting

78:47 – 78:54 innocent people in jail and some of it

78:51 – 78:55 was real legitimate cover-up stuff and

78:54 – 78:57 when you look into it and you hear

78:55 – 78:59 people talking about it it’s like well

78:57 – 79:04 some of that shit was definitely going

78:59 – 79:06 on so is is going on yes sorry yeah is

79:04 – 79:07 going on I mean I don’t think you I

79:06 – 79:09 don’t think you have to stretch too far

79:07 – 79:12 back into history to just be like well

79:09 – 79:16 we have a lot of evidence that you know

79:12 – 79:19 throughout history people you know in

79:16 – 79:23 government’s and of hot in high status

79:19 – 79:25 did like used have done you know really

79:23 – 79:27 violent sexual rituals within it with

79:25 – 79:29 people who did not ask to be involved in

79:27 – 79:31 those violent sexual rituals I don’t

79:29 – 79:33 think anybody would dispute that to the

79:31 – 79:35 idea that somehow it doesn’t exist in

79:33 – 79:38 our time is so naive

79:35 – 79:40 I just want to say that like the picture

79:38 – 79:42 is really complicated so what people do

79:40 – 79:44 is they go to one side or the other

79:42 – 79:46 they’re like oh it’s all real no it is

79:44 – 79:48 all all that satanic ritual abuse stuff

79:46 – 79:49 that’s the grand narrative of our

79:48 – 79:52 culture or they say oh no it’s all

79:49 – 79:55 stupid and it takes a lot more effort

79:52 – 79:57 than that unfortunately I’m with you and

79:55 – 80:01 I think you make a great point but let’s

79:57 – 80:05 go down the path of it’s the grand

80:01 – 80:07 political social engineering narrative

80:05 – 80:11 of our time thing for a minute because I

80:07 – 80:15 really don’t think that gets enough play

80:11 – 80:19 if Trump is our current sexual blackmail

80:15 – 80:23 Roy Cohen kind of figure which if people

80:19 – 80:25 don’t know who row Cohen is you know

80:23 – 80:30 just go investigate but admitted that

80:25 – 80:32 sexual blackmail was his political tool

80:30 – 80:34 of choice and it has been for a lot of

80:32 – 80:38 people and J Edgar Hoover was

80:34 – 80:40 politically blackmailed for his gayness

80:38 – 80:42 and his desire to dress up in women’s

80:40 – 80:44 clothing and that’s why he ran around

80:42 – 80:48 for the longest time saying ridiculous

80:44 – 80:50 things like mafia what mafia well you

80:48 – 80:52 say that when they have all the photos

80:50 – 80:55 of you you know you’ll say whatever they

80:52 – 80:57 want but you know if you look it then

80:55 – 80:59 and you start diving into this I’m just

80:57 – 81:00 going to throw out some kind of things

80:59 – 81:02 here and then people will have to

81:00 – 81:04 investigate on their own but some people

81:02 – 81:07 know if you look at the Franklin scandal

81:04 – 81:10 tightly linked to the Republican Party

81:07 – 81:13 and then it was also the call-boy

81:10 – 81:15 scandal related in Washington it’s it’s

81:13 – 81:19 hard to know and then of course pizza

81:15 – 81:22 gate and that has all these direct links

81:19 – 81:26 not only to child abuse and child

81:22 – 81:30 trafficking but to occulted and satanic

81:26 – 81:31 kind of practices and I hear you and

81:30 – 81:34 that a lot of people don’t know where to

81:31 – 81:38 draw the line but it seems much more

81:34 – 81:41 common to me and especially people in

81:38 – 81:42 the occult and magic community that they

81:41 – 81:46 don’t even want a tiptoe into those

81:42 – 81:49 waters I mean Podesta Dennis hazard we

81:46 – 81:52 have the emails why is put

81:49 – 81:54 talking to Dennis hazard like this what

81:52 – 81:58 do they have in common what they have in

81:54 – 82:00 common is pedophilia because hazard is a

81:58 – 82:02 convicted pedophile that the judge who

82:00 – 82:05 sentenced him said you know you’re one

82:02 – 82:07 of the worst examples of this kind of

82:05 – 82:10 horrific stuff that we’ve seen and then

82:07 – 82:12 if you look at Podesta and all we have

82:10 – 82:14 is circumstantial stuff but I mean

82:12 – 82:17 anyone who’s objective about looking at

82:14 – 82:19 that it takes you places that you don’t

82:17 – 82:23 want to go so if I can spin all that

82:19 – 82:26 back how is this not the main political

82:23 – 82:28 narrative of I don’t want to say our

82:26 – 82:32 time because we don’t know how far back

82:28 – 82:34 it stretches but it just seems to be so

82:32 – 82:36 much more prominent than anyone’s

82:34 – 82:38 willing to really acknowledge and

82:36 – 82:41 especially in your world where I’m kind

82:38 – 82:44 of attacking you and the neoliberal

82:41 – 82:47 level they are so detached from this

82:44 – 82:52 again because their inability to deal

82:47 – 82:54 with the greater and spiritual reality

82:52 – 82:58 that exists completely shuts them down

82:54 – 82:59 from this they just can’t go there yeah

82:58 – 83:02 I mean they’re they’re completely

82:59 – 83:04 incapable I mean one of the reasons why

83:02 – 83:06 is because what we talked about at the

83:04 – 83:08 top of the show we are controlled and

83:06 – 83:13 shamed into not having conversations

83:08 – 83:14 about sex – not having conversations

83:13 – 83:17 about politics they’re not having

83:14 – 83:21 conversations about spirituality or even

83:17 – 83:23 philosophy at this point so all of those

83:21 – 83:25 things are difficult for us to talk

83:23 – 83:27 about for various reasons which you know

83:25 – 83:31 we probably don’t have time to go into

83:27 – 83:33 all the reasons why but so we’re first

83:31 – 83:34 of all completely unequip to even talk

83:33 – 83:36 about it so even if we got over that

83:34 – 83:39 first hurdle of deciding to think about

83:36 – 83:40 it and go into it a very few of us even

83:39 – 83:41 have the language to have that

83:40 – 83:45 discussion so most people are inept when

83:41 – 83:46 it comes to it but I also think I always

83:45 – 83:49 come back to you know when we talk about

83:46 – 83:51 pizza gate for example I actually don’t

83:49 – 83:52 know all the particulars of the pizza

83:51 – 83:55 gate I don’t know all the particulars

83:52 – 83:57 about Podesta’s emails and all that kind

83:55 – 83:60 of thing so in some ways I fail to meet

83:57 – 84:02 the demand that you would maybe have of

83:60 – 84:06 me here

84:02 – 84:09 what I do have is like okay well I care

84:06 – 84:12 about I actually genuinely care about

84:09 – 84:17 when as much as I can without just

84:12 – 84:19 losing my mind when we drone strike

84:17 – 84:23 villages in Pakistan and kill children

84:19 – 84:26 right so what when I why I bring that up

84:23 – 84:30 is like there’s a cognitive dissonance

84:26 – 84:32 about who’s being harmed where how we

84:30 – 84:35 harm people all that kind of stuff to me

84:32 – 84:36 although I have not investigated the

84:35 – 84:40 particulars of a lot of these child

84:36 – 84:42 abuse scandals would have surprised me

84:40 – 84:46 that a government that is willing to

84:42 – 84:50 murder kids with bombs and guns you know

84:46 – 84:54 in foreign wars would do crazy shit like

84:50 – 84:56 that in this country no and and so I

84:54 – 84:58 feel like my ethical and moral compass

84:56 – 85:01 is in the right place which is at least

84:58 – 85:03 part of what’s needed for this because I

85:01 – 85:06 think also there’s a way in which people

85:03 – 85:09 go down these conspiracy rabbit holes

85:06 – 85:12 which I think sometimes really produce

85:09 – 85:15 worthwhile information and perspectives

85:12 – 85:16 for us but they go down them as a way to

85:15 – 85:18 distract themselves from the moral

85:16 – 85:20 dimension of the thing that’s happening

85:18 – 85:22 all over the world in the first place

85:20 – 85:25 and that also I think is just as

85:22 – 85:28 concerning for me where it becomes this

85:25 – 85:29 like whodunit put all the strings on the

85:28 – 85:33 board and connect everything together

85:29 – 85:35 you know in information game that loses

85:33 – 85:37 its moral core where you look outward

85:35 – 85:39 into the world where you don’t even have

85:37 – 85:42 to do any of that work and see yeah

85:39 – 85:44 governments and corporations murder and

85:42 – 85:46 torture children there’s no question

85:44 – 85:48 about that at all and I should be really

85:46 – 85:52 concerned of that on a worldwide scale

85:48 – 85:54 now it’s both those things are still

85:52 – 85:57 leaving out the whole dimension of this

85:54 – 85:60 sort of spiritual aspect of well what

85:57 – 86:03 does it mean that we might kill people

85:60 – 86:08 kill kids torture kids sexually abuse

86:03 – 86:10 kids for a sexual spiritual ritual in

86:08 – 86:12 the world what does that mean and what

86:10 – 86:14 does that reveal to us I hear you but

86:12 – 86:15 you you’re kind of not answering the

86:14 – 86:17 question

86:15 – 86:20 here’s the point what interested me from

86:17 – 86:24 the beginning about pizza gate and about

86:20 – 86:26 satanic ritual abuse and generally about

86:24 – 86:28 sexual abuse of children which

86:26 – 86:31 oftentimes doesn’t have anything to do

86:28 – 86:34 with sex it has to do with violence and

86:31 – 86:38 when I interviewed Bob hammer FBI agent

86:34 – 86:40 20 years who infiltrated NAMBLA man-boy

86:38 – 86:43 love Association phony political front

86:40 – 86:46 and the conversations that he heard

86:43 – 86:50 these men having were not about sex

86:46 – 86:52 or love they were about violence the her

86:50 – 86:54 pod really horrible horrific things that

86:52 – 86:56 they wanted to do to children in ways

86:54 – 86:58 that they wanted to harm them but I

86:56 – 87:01 digress slightly because what that was

86:58 – 87:06 really about to me was the question of

87:01 – 87:09 evil because there’s a moral ambiguity

87:06 – 87:13 to Obama who as I’m sure you were

87:09 – 87:15 referring to drone striking weddings you

87:13 – 87:18 know cuz Obama was the the drone strike

87:15 – 87:20 King in history more drone strikes than

87:18 – 87:23 anyone else and he had a lot of children

87:20 – 87:25 and he killed a lot of innocents all the

87:23 – 87:26 rest of that and I say that slightly

87:25 – 87:28 tongue-in-cheek because of course it

87:26 – 87:32 happened before and it’s happened since

87:28 – 87:34 but let’s let Obama sit on the throne

87:32 – 87:37 there cuz he won that prize but there’s

87:34 – 87:41 a moral ambiguity to that because we

87:37 – 87:42 understand that we need to defend

87:41 – 87:45 ourselves

87:42 – 87:47 so the Dalai Lama says hey if someone

87:45 – 87:49 attacks you it’s okay to deceptive end

87:47 – 87:50 yourself Gandhi says hey even though

87:49 – 87:52 it’s you know turn the other cheek and

87:50 – 87:53 peace and all that we do have a right to

87:52 – 87:57 defend ourselves

87:53 – 88:01 so well-meaning people can have

87:57 – 88:05 differences about how far that defense

88:01 – 88:08 extends and what we should allow

88:05 – 88:10 ourselves or in our governments on our

88:08 – 88:14 behalf to engage in in order to defend

88:10 – 88:17 ourselves the other hand a lot of this

88:14 – 88:19 sexual abuse and satanic stuff strikes

88:17 – 88:20 us as something that is of a different

88:19 – 88:23 ilk

88:20 – 88:25 it is evil in a way that we don’t want

88:23 – 88:28 to look at or fully come to grips with

88:25 – 88:29 it’s evil in a way that I don’t fully

88:28 – 88:33 understand

88:29 – 88:35 but I’m open to wanting to explore

88:33 – 88:38 because I think there’s something there

88:35 – 88:41 that fits into this larger puzzle in

88:38 – 88:44 terms of why someone would engage in

88:41 – 88:47 this kind of evil do you get what I’m

88:44 – 88:49 saying yes okay so first I want to agree

88:47 – 88:52 with you and then I want to turn

88:49 – 88:54 something back to you okay the thing I

88:52 – 88:56 want to agree with you on is yes there’s

88:54 – 88:59 definitely a distinction there and

88:56 – 89:02 anything that looks like satanic ritual

88:59 – 89:04 abuse will reveal something different

89:02 – 89:06 about evil to us that I think is

89:04 – 89:10 important but I would also just turn

89:06 – 89:14 back to you and say maybe like the more

89:10 – 89:16 pernicious and horrible evil is in is in

89:14 – 89:19 the kind of violence that makes us think

89:16 – 89:21 that there’s ambiguity about it maybe

89:19 – 89:23 that’s the thing that’s actually way

89:21 – 89:27 more evil because let’s say somebody

89:23 – 89:29 gets caught like red-handed skinning the

89:27 – 89:31 child and as some of these accounts are

89:29 – 89:34 and like hanging their skin on a tree I

89:31 – 89:37 think our society would condemn that you

89:34 – 89:41 know you know really if they saw it in

89:37 – 89:44 plain sight we see images of people

89:41 – 89:47 being burned alive and it’s public

89:44 – 89:50 record and we talk about that as winning

89:47 – 89:54 and you know and as necessary and as

89:50 – 89:56 ambiguous that to me that spirit that

89:54 – 89:59 thing that’s happening in that space is

89:56 – 90:02 the thing that’s the real real horrific

89:59 – 90:05 instance of evil and it’s not it’s not

90:02 – 90:07 because it’s more evil or less evil than

90:05 – 90:09 you know killing and torturing the kid

90:07 – 90:10 and satanic ritual abuse there are

90:09 – 90:12 distinctions there and I think it’s

90:10 – 90:15 important to notice them it’s just that

90:12 – 90:18 we greeted we greet it with an

90:15 – 90:20 enthusiasm and that to me is really

90:18 – 90:22 really messed up and it’s something that

90:20 – 90:24 we really need to look at and that is

90:22 – 90:30 hidden from us that’s a that’s a

90:24 – 90:33 conspiracy all on its own why we why we

90:30 – 90:36 celebrate that kind of thing and I don’t

90:33 – 90:38 think it’s good to just I’m not saying

90:36 – 90:41 you’re doing this but I’m gonna use a

90:38 – 90:42 forceful word I don’t think it’s good to

90:41 – 90:45 retreat or hide in and

90:42 – 90:47 duty or the idea of complex decisions

90:45 – 90:51 when it comes to that sort of thing

90:47 – 90:53 we have decided unconsciously but then

90:51 – 90:55 I’ve decided to go along with a culture

90:53 – 90:58 that says that that’s okay and that’s

90:55 – 91:00 ambiguous and we have decided so deeply

90:58 – 91:03 that we rarely even try to get ourselves

91:00 – 91:05 out of situations like that or pull

91:03 – 91:07 ourselves back from it or try to dial

91:05 – 91:10 down the way that we do that in the

91:07 – 91:13 world the way that we export murder and

91:10 – 91:15 torture across the entire planet

91:13 – 91:18 a lot of nations do it it’s not just us

91:15 – 91:20 but let’s take responsibility for the

91:18 – 91:21 one we’re in I get you that’s a point

91:20 – 91:24 well taken

91:21 – 91:26 and rather than kind of defend myself

91:24 – 91:28 because you got a point well there’s no

91:26 – 91:31 question about it the one thing I would

91:28 – 91:35 add to that though is where I was coming

91:31 – 91:39 at it from was it clarifies on that I

91:35 – 91:42 think we we agree yes because you know a

91:39 – 91:45 lot of my efforts I guess has been kind

91:42 – 91:47 of wanting to grab atheistic people by

91:45 – 91:50 the shirt collar you know whether they

91:47 – 91:52 be Heather Berg at USC with a

91:50 – 91:55 phony-baloney job or you know some

91:52 – 91:57 atheist who doesn’t even I know you’re

91:55 – 92:01 gonna get a lot of shit from Heather

91:57 – 92:03 she’s welcome to come it’s just

92:01 – 92:06 ridiculous that someone would would say

92:03 – 92:07 those kind of crazy things but it

92:06 – 92:11 anyways to shake those people by the

92:07 – 92:14 Chur color and say there is a larger

92:11 – 92:16 spiritual reality that you got to swim

92:14 – 92:20 in that pond before you can even begin

92:16 – 92:22 to deal with some of this stuff so it’s

92:20 – 92:25 almost like you know you see one entry

92:22 – 92:28 point and I see another entry point I

92:25 – 92:31 see the entry point as being provocative

92:28 – 92:34 and saying yes tannic ritual abuse look

92:31 – 92:36 there is real and it goes all the way up

92:34 – 92:39 in the White House and not just the

92:36 – 92:42 Trump White House but the Obama White

92:39 – 92:44 House the Bush White House and you know

92:42 – 92:47 over and over and over again so it’s

92:44 – 92:49 like that to me is the doorway to saying

92:47 – 92:52 for some people will say oh I do need to

92:49 – 92:54 wake up to that versus I think it is

92:52 – 92:56 harder for people to wake up to the

92:54 – 92:60 drone strike which is

92:56 – 93:03 an extension of the firebombing of Tokyo

92:60 – 93:05 which is an extension of Holocaust of

93:03 – 93:08 the Druids by the Romans which is an

93:05 – 93:11 extension of we’ve seen all that shit

93:08 – 93:13 yeah I mean I think and I think like

93:11 – 93:17 just like I don’t want to dismiss the

93:13 – 93:20 ritual abuse stuff or or other other

93:17 – 93:24 instances of human sacrifice and strange

93:20 – 93:26 occult acts of black magic in high

93:24 – 93:28 places as not interested they’re very

93:26 – 93:30 interesting and I think that the way you

93:28 – 93:33 just said it where you say it clarifies

93:30 – 93:36 what evil is that’s a really interesting

93:33 – 93:38 way of looking at it because I think you

93:36 – 93:40 know people tend to think of evil as

93:38 – 93:42 like oh well you know everybody’s just

93:40 – 93:44 wounded and they’re just acting out of

93:42 – 93:45 the wound like no that’s bullshit and

93:44 – 93:47 you and I both know that that’s bullshit

93:45 – 93:48 because and I’ve heard you talk about it

93:47 – 93:51 and call people out on that and say like

93:48 – 93:53 no that’s bullshit it is total bullshit

93:51 – 93:56 what’s happening when someone’s evil is

93:53 – 94:01 that they are they’ve reached a state

93:56 – 94:04 where they understand their wounds and

94:01 – 94:07 they’re still deciding intentionally to

94:04 – 94:11 align themselves with certain forces in

94:07 – 94:13 our cosmos and in our world – I think

94:11 – 94:15 the way mark booth might have said it I

94:13 – 94:18 love using him as an example because he

94:15 – 94:20 says so much and so eloquently is that

94:18 – 94:24 as counter forces to the evolution of

94:20 – 94:26 humanity and we could unpack evolution

94:24 – 94:28 of humanity and counter forces and all

94:26 – 94:32 that kind of stuff if you want but this

94:28 – 94:35 essentially it means like I’m aligned

94:32 – 94:37 myself with beings that want to undo

94:35 – 94:40 love and compassion in the world and

94:37 – 94:42 I’ve done that intentionally I’ve done

94:40 – 94:45 and freedom and free will and I’ve done

94:42 – 94:47 that intentionally someone someone can I

94:45 – 94:49 mean this is gonna sound strange but

94:47 – 94:51 someone can murder somebody and it won’t

94:49 – 94:54 be evil because they’re doing it because

94:51 – 94:56 they’re crazy and they’re compulsive and

94:54 – 94:58 they’re acting on when they might be in

94:56 – 94:60 the sway of something that’s evil but

94:58 – 95:02 they themselves are outside of their own

94:60 – 95:06 free will evil I think requires free

95:02 – 95:09 will because evil requires intention

95:06 – 95:10 otherwise it’s reflexive it’s compulsive

95:09 – 95:13 so you

95:10 – 95:15 is rare but it’s horrific when it

95:13 – 95:18 happens and I think that both the

95:15 – 95:20 satanic ritual abuse stuff end wars at a

95:18 – 95:23 certain point up the ladder are acts of

95:20 – 95:26 evil whether everybody involved in those

95:23 – 95:28 acts are evil people are doing evil

95:26 – 95:30 themselves and not just sort of in the

95:28 – 95:32 sway of something as if they’re

95:30 – 95:34 hypnotized or in a trance is that’s a

95:32 – 95:37 different question I think you put your

95:34 – 95:39 finger on something and I like how you

95:37 – 95:41 reference marks thing because I gave

95:39 – 95:44 mark a pretty hard time about his kind

95:41 – 95:46 of very Christian worldview and I have a

95:44 – 95:49 lot of respect for him I think he’s

95:46 – 95:51 brilliant in so many ways and I love

95:49 – 95:53 what you said about mark and a

95:51 – 95:56 counterrevolutionary thing and I guess

95:53 – 96:01 let me tip my hand a little bit in that

95:56 – 96:04 I think that is so accessible to all of

96:01 – 96:06 us in a very personal way if we’re

96:04 – 96:08 really honest what are your thoughts on

96:06 – 96:09 that I want to say that one of the

96:08 – 96:14 urgent questions ahead of us is to all

96:09 – 96:16 ask ourselves consistently am i evil is

96:14 – 96:18 to keep that question in mind because

96:16 – 96:20 you’re right it can become that it’s not

96:18 – 96:22 it’s almost like the opposite of being

96:20 – 96:23 when people say he’s crazy it’s like if

96:22 – 96:26 you can ask yourself if you’re crazy

96:23 – 96:27 then you’re not crazy if you can ask

96:26 – 96:29 yourself if you’re evil

96:27 – 96:31 then you actually do have the potential

96:29 – 96:33 to become evil because if you never ask

96:31 – 96:35 then you’re just in this way of

96:33 – 96:37 compulsive sleepwalking forces like

96:35 – 96:38 everybody else and you know nothing you

96:37 – 96:41 do is really evil but also nothing you

96:38 – 96:43 do is really good like you’re not really

96:41 – 96:45 acting out of intention at all so you’re

96:43 – 96:47 not really able to extend to love and

96:45 – 96:49 compassion for real and an intentional

96:47 – 96:51 purposeful and meaningful way to people

96:49 – 96:53 so you have to ask yourself am i evil to

96:51 – 96:55 be able to extend it and that is the

96:53 – 96:57 gift of the possibility of evil to us

96:55 – 96:60 that’s the gift of free will to us is

96:57 – 97:03 that the separation the ability to do

96:60 – 97:04 evil means that if we look at that we

97:03 – 97:07 ask ourselves that that we can do good

97:04 – 97:09 in the world if that makes sense so I

97:07 – 97:13 think that I think that it takes a lot

97:09 – 97:15 of work to do evil in the sense of yes

97:13 – 97:17 it’s available to all of us but so you

97:15 – 97:20 do evil okay so you’re an evil person

97:17 – 97:23 you do lots of horrible black magic in

97:20 – 97:24 this world and I define almost all evil

97:23 – 97:26 as

97:24 – 97:29 black magic honestly so I did not I’m

97:26 – 97:31 bored with spiritual people are cultists

97:29 – 97:33 are like oh who cares black magic white

97:31 – 97:35 magic gray magic cuz I’ll just you know

97:33 – 97:37 whatever no I’m not down with that and

97:35 – 97:39 there are lots of reasons for that but I

97:37 – 97:41 think it’s like yes if you do black

97:39 – 97:44 magic in this lifetime you’re doing evil

97:41 – 97:46 okay so you die so then you die and you

97:44 – 97:48 have a life in between this life in the

97:46 – 97:51 next life and then you’re reborn again

97:48 – 97:53 and so then you probably won’t do evil

97:51 – 97:55 in the next lifetime so okay so you did

97:53 – 97:56 evil on this one you know the way the

97:55 – 97:58 universe works is we have freewill and

97:56 – 98:01 these experiences are available to us at

97:58 – 98:03 one way or another there’s a really

98:01 – 98:04 curious almost hidden little thing that

98:03 – 98:06 Rudolf Steiner says somewhere and I

98:04 – 98:08 don’t exactly even remember where it is

98:06 – 98:10 but he says if you do evil in one

98:08 – 98:13 lifetime okay that sucks you shouldn’t

98:10 – 98:15 do it but everybody who’s been a great

98:13 – 98:17 spiritual master as at some point been a

98:15 – 98:19 black magician in a in a past lifetime

98:17 – 98:22 why because they need to understand the

98:19 – 98:24 totality of human experience so they

98:22 – 98:26 have to go through that trial so even

98:24 – 98:28 the people who have become mass actually

98:26 – 98:32 disclose said that and cipriotti healer

98:28 – 98:33 but he but he said you know so look

98:32 – 98:35 because they need to experience the

98:33 – 98:38 totality of existence to understand the

98:35 – 98:40 real depths of humanity so on a sort of

98:38 – 98:41 cosmic scale it’s that that idea that I

98:40 – 98:43 was talking about before like you have

98:41 – 98:45 to ask yourself if you’re evil to be

98:43 – 98:47 able to do good we have to do evil to do

98:45 – 98:50 great good in another lifetime I’m not

98:47 – 98:52 proposing anybody do evil but I’m just

98:50 – 98:54 saying we go through these lifetimes

98:52 – 98:57 Rudolf Steiner said this very curious

98:54 – 98:60 thing somewhere where he said if you do

98:57 – 99:03 evil in one lifetime fine if you do it

98:60 – 99:05 in 13 lifetimes in a row I don’t know

99:03 – 99:08 where he came up with that number but he

99:05 – 99:11 said your soul will be obliterated now

99:08 – 99:14 in my understanding of spirituality our

99:11 – 99:17 being is that we are all our own

99:14 – 99:21 universes and we’re becoming our own

99:17 – 99:23 universes so if you do evil 13 lifetimes

99:21 – 99:25 in a row and you obliterate your soul

99:23 – 99:28 you’ve made a black hole out of yourself

99:25 – 99:30 and a black hole sucks everything into

99:28 – 99:31 it and that is really counter to

99:30 – 99:33 humanity you’ve done something really

99:31 – 99:35 grievous you’ve done something really

99:33 – 99:36 horrible you’ve aligned yourself with

99:35 – 99:38 forces in the

99:36 – 99:41 universe that really are trying to make

99:38 – 99:44 you a sink that pulls everything into

99:41 – 99:47 nothingness so that is what happens with

99:44 – 99:49 evil as far as I’m concerned there’s a

99:47 – 99:50 lot there that we can go into but I know

99:49 – 99:52 we’re getting to the end of the episode

99:50 – 99:56 so you just let people sit with that I

99:52 – 99:58 guess sit with it they shall get our

99:56 – 100:00 guest has been Connor Habib Connor it’s

99:58 – 100:03 been absolutely great entering into this

100:00 – 100:05 dialogue with you I think it’s so rare

100:03 – 100:08 I’ve never had a chance to talk with

100:05 – 100:09 anyone in this way on skeptic oh so it’s

100:08 – 100:13 a great gift

100:09 – 100:16 check out Connors podcast slash video

100:13 – 100:19 vidcast against everyone with Connor

100:16 – 100:21 Abebe and how else can people reach you

100:19 – 100:24 and follow your progress towards your

100:21 – 100:27 very interesting ah PhD work we were

100:24 – 100:29 talking yeah so um so one of the best

100:27 – 100:30 ways to interact with me because I

100:29 – 100:33 really interact with people in there is

100:30 – 100:36 through my patreon and even if you just

100:33 – 100:38 pledge $1 a month but or you can pledge

100:36 – 100:40 more I respond to everybody on there and

100:38 – 100:40 that’s patreon.com/lenguin

100:43 – 100:50 and you know if if I still nevertheless

100:48 – 100:52 appreciate everybody if you want to

100:50 – 100:55 follow me on twitter just at seal in an

100:52 – 100:58 erh ABI be at Connor be on Twitter and

100:55 – 101:01 also you know by subscribing to the

100:58 – 101:03 podcast great Connor well that’s our

101:01 – 101:05 luck and let’s stay in touch right yeah

101:03 – 101:07 we will

101:05 – 101:09 thanks again to Connor herby for joining

101:07 – 101:12 me today on skeptic oh the one question

101:09 – 101:14 I tee up from this interview is the

101:12 – 101:17 question i teed up at the beginning and

101:14 – 101:20 that is is there a disconnect between

101:17 – 101:23 progressive social causes that we all

101:20 – 101:26 identify with and believe in universal

101:23 – 101:31 love and harmony and freedom and justice

101:26 – 101:34 is there a disconnect between that and

101:31 – 101:37 spirituality in that do any of those

101:34 – 101:42 things make sense in an atheistic

101:37 – 101:44 biological robot paradigm so that’s the

101:42 – 101:46 question I’d love to hear your thoughts

101:44 – 101:49 join me on the skeptical forum or just

101:46 – 101:52 send me an email or reach me on Facebook

101:49 – 101:56 any way you want is good for me I’m here

101:52 – 101:58 at skeptic Oh calm as k EP tik Oh calm

101:56 – 102:02 where I make available all these shows

101:58 – 102:04 for free for download to use in any way

102:02 – 102:07 you like so that’s going to do it for

102:04 – 102:09 this episode I have some good ones in

102:07 – 102:11 the can a little bit slow and getting

102:09 – 102:12 them out that’s why I’m increasing and

102:11 – 102:14 kind of doing every week because I wind

102:12 – 102:16 up doing more interviews and then I

102:14 – 102:17 can’t get them out in time so they’re

102:16 – 102:19 gonna be coming every week for a while

102:17 – 102:21 and then back to every other week but

102:19 – 102:24 anyways there’s some good ones coming up

102:21 – 102:27 stick around for all of that until next

102:24 – 102:32 time take care bye for now

102:27 – 102:32 [Music]

102:34 – 102:38 [Music]

102:41 – 102:46 [Music]

102:43 – 102:47 so thanks for watching this video if it

102:46 – 102:50 wasn’t really a video but just an audio

102:47 – 102:52 stored as a video I apologize but

102:50 – 102:54 there’s more videos out there as well

102:52 – 102:55 but please check out the skeptic Oh

102:54 – 102:57 website you can see it here we cover a

102:55 – 102:60 lot of different stuff you might be

102:57 – 103:03 interested in relating to controversial

102:60 – 103:06 science and spirituality a lot of shows

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