Bruce Fenton… evidence of anceint genetic manipulation… technosignatures… spiritual seeding by NHI… good ET bad ET.

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[00:00:00] Alex Tsakiris: on, this episode of Skeptiko,

[00:00:04] Bruce Fenton: this is again, an issue in human consciousness, isn’t it? That we want even our aliens to be reasonable with us, they’re allowed to be a a bit different, but not too different. It can’t be full on, you know, Harry Potter magical weirdness stuff. Oh no. You know, now you’ve gone a bit too far. Now it’s just science fiction, you know, because it’s not fitting into a kind of a prearranged, , landscape of what aliens should be like.

[00:00:30] Bruce Fenton: Did someone else out there with intelligence have a point for us? For example, you know, that they actually had an, uh, you know, some idea of where we might want to go and have left us some kind of clues about what can help a civilization survive for hundreds of thousands of years.

[00:00:44] Bruce Fenton: It should give us a glimmer of hope. ,

[00:00:47] Alex Tsakiris: okay. Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science and spirituality. I’m joined today by Bruce Fenton, one of my absolute favorites. Bruce, as you may remember, has been on the show a couple times. , is the author along with his wife Danny of Exogenesis Hybrid Humans, a scientific history of extraterrestrial genetic manipulation.

[00:01:11] Alex Tsakiris: He also has a terrific CK that I, uh, subscribe to and it’s just, I can’t believe he gets the content out, but he does, uh, you check that out. Techno signatures, , the search for Alien Technologies where he kind of updates folks on a lot of the same topic area that the book was in.

[00:01:29] Alex Tsakiris: So, uh, Bruce, it’s great to have you. Thanks for joining me. I, I, I have your prepared now cause I told you I’m gonna, I’m gonna push you, so, uh, I’m glad

[00:01:39] Bruce Fenton: you’re here. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me back on. It’s a pleasure. It’s been a while. So yeah, we can catch up to where things are at and obviously Yeah.

[00:01:47] Bruce Fenton: And tackle any other topics that you like a lot in common there too?

[00:01:51] Alex Tsakiris: Well, here’s where, here’s where I wanted to kind of redirect it because I know you can update me on a lot of stuff that’s going on that is of super interest, you know, and people can go to your CK mm-hmm. and they’ll read all about it.

[00:02:05] Alex Tsakiris: What I wanna kind of take us to is, you know, I think the book is super important. I think the sub is super important, but I do question a little bit the way that you’re going about it. You know, I just had this guy on, uh, recently, couple weeks ago, Jason Gianni, and he’s really a philosopher, but he wrote this book, closer Encounters, and he’s all worked up about, uh, Mars, you know, which he should be.

[00:02:31] Alex Tsakiris: Anybody should be, you know, you might talk about TEUs signatures all over the place in the images. You know, you go to Brandenburg’s, uh, nuclear weapons, Checka signature. Great. You got remote viewing, which isn’t really a TEUs signature, but kind of is in a way. So there’s plenty of reasons to be worked up about Mars.

[00:02:51] Alex Tsakiris: But here’s the big thing about Mars, right? Is we know two things about Mars and the Exogenesis with Mars. Number one, we know that they’re lying their ass off, right? Mm-hmm. , because they got, they have hundreds of thousands of high resolution images that they just, they just won’t let ’em out. And a couple of ’em snuck out like 40 years ago and they go, oh, no, no, those aren’t there.

[00:03:11] Alex Tsakiris: It’s such an obvious gross lie that no one even pretends anymore to say, Hey, show me those images. What’d you show me? You know? Mm-hmm. , you can look at a license plate from a satellite, but you won’t show me that face. He won’t show me that pyramid. So we know that they’re lying and we know that they’re lying cuz they know something.

[00:03:30] Alex Tsakiris: You know? Or at least we should reasonably assume that. So I take the same thing with you, man. I take the same thing with what you’re doing. Do you really think Seth at Seti and Avi Lobe, Harvard, you, do you really think you need to pump those guys with one more study, with more data that then, oh, the Wickham go, oh, Bruce, yeah.

[00:03:55] Alex Tsakiris: Now I do get it. I see all the evidence that you’ve already piled up all the Nassau papers that you’ve referenced, all the tech tight samples, is that really gonna carry the day? Isn’t it more likely that they, on some, maybe not completely, but they know, they know something. What, what do you think? You don’t understand where I’m going completely.

[00:04:15] Alex Tsakiris: What do you think about that?

[00:04:16] Bruce Fenton: Sure. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I think if you look at, say, Some of the work that’s been done by, and one stands right stands out to me is like Professor Milton Wainwright and his work where he was basically collecting organisms in the upper atmosphere, which were like not related to any organisms we know of.

[00:04:36] Bruce Fenton: Right. So you’d say, Sounds like he’s found aliens, you know, and he was, he was reaching out to NASA and reaching out to, you know, other, uh, scientific bodies. Right? You know, he, he is a, he know he’s an accredited, uh, legitimate academic scientist. He’s a biologist. And he said he, he wasn’t even getting replies from nasa.

[00:04:56] Bruce Fenton: So, you know, and he is like, can you check my results? Can you, you know, do the science check what I’ve got. Does it, does it add up? And you’ve gotta figure about that. I mean, this guy, you know, he’s got the cred. I don’t have those, you know, he’s got the credentials. He’s putting it across the people you’d expect him to check it with, and then he’s getting nothing.

[00:05:12] Bruce Fenton: So there’s definitely something very wrong, right? So, like you said, I mean, does it take someone else finding the same thing? I mean, if that guy has already found what certainly looks like organisms isn’t that life from space. And on top of that, this, this is the same scientist who, and I, you might have seen this, I mean, I’ve talked about it, but he’s the guy who had a detector that, um, a small metal sphere impacted into it, and there was like organic goo coming out, right?

[00:05:35] Bruce Fenton: So he is like, you know, is this some kind of panspermia seed, you know, like an artificial technology? So these are like wild things that have already been found. Like you’re quite right that, you know, those things should have made a bigger impact in the human psyche than they have, and they should have reverberated out into the scientific community more than they did.

[00:05:55] Bruce Fenton: And he, he has kind of taught them that a little bit himself. He said that, you know, he was shocked when he first came into the topic because he, he collaborated with wk rum singer, you know, obviously the, the main panspermia guy. And when, when he went to do that, he was expecting to be almost like everyone would be excited to do that work.

[00:06:10] Bruce Fenton: And then he realized that no, nobody wanted to do it. It was toxic, and that they didn’t want any connection to alien topics, and that it was completely the opposite, and that people were scared to lose their funding. They were scared of being made to look silly. Um, and that, you know, rather than being exciting topic, it was considered yeah, like, you know, don’t go there, you’ll ruin your career.

[00:06:30] Bruce Fenton: So how, how people wanna look at it, things are broken. Because if, if it’s like that where, you know, a serious scientist thinks, well, this is great work, you know, we can do this, and then they realize nobody wants to do it because they’re all kind of scared, then whether we call that like a conspiracy or, or a problem, you know, in our minds, you know, e either way something’s wrong.

[00:06:51] Bruce Fenton: So, yeah, it’s true that, I don’t know that you can just say, keep stacking up papers. I think it’s, it’s got more to do with human psychology than, than the evidence at this point, isn’t it? You know, it’s like, well, if someone doesn’t look at evidence as well, what good is, you know that you have that problem, you could.

[00:07:07] Bruce Fenton: A spaceship. If I turn away and I’m not, not looking at, I don’t see a spaceship Alex, I, I don’t see it, you know, because I don’t want to, I don’t want this problem. Um, then that is completely different. You know, that’s a situation that I’m not sure how we resolve other than getting broader public support and public interest.

[00:07:25] Bruce Fenton: I think you’re in the, it’s very difficult to say you can get the academic community to all suddenly change and say, Hey, let’s seriously consider, you know, what we have here from these various different researchers who over the years have come up with stuff, you know? And even the guy that did the Mars Life experiment, he spent his whole life to his last dying day saying that they found life on Mars.

[00:07:45] Bruce Fenton: And he would, he was being kind of angrily, you know, shy at conferences and, and ignored and, and they never went back to check his results. You know, they never sent another experiment back to check. It was like, how dare you find life? You know? That’s not what we meant to do. You know? It, it, so it’s really wacky when people sort of stop and think about this.

[00:08:03] Bruce Fenton: You know, these are people that are, that were respected, but as soon as they do the wrong thing, suddenly they’re a crank. You know, cuz they found something. Oh no, you’re not supposed to actually find stuff. You know, it’s, it’s really, I think, I don’t know if the public really get it. Alex, do you know what I mean?

[00:08:17] Bruce Fenton: That, that it’s like that.

[00:08:19] Alex Tsakiris: Well, they don’t, I mean, because there’s, it’s so true. It’s like axiomatic at this point on every topic that, you know, it’s the red pilled on everything becomes a thing. And, you know, we can, it turns into a discussion of why people believe weird things, which is interesting for a while and then quickly loses its interest.

[00:08:39] Alex Tsakiris: I’ll tell you where I wanted to direct your focus, because I think it’s a topic that really needs to be addressed by you, and that is kind of leaning into the wackiness of the Valerie Burrow, uh, acheringa, uh, channeled material. And so if, if people don’t know, here’s where I’d like you to kind of take us.

[00:09:04] Alex Tsakiris: You have always acknowledged, I mean, very upfront, say, Hey, you know, there, here is this, and I’m gonna set this over aside. Cause some of the stuff she says does sound very wacky in this kind of channeled way. But like the other data point’s, the cat, the other data point I would bring into that is like, like, uh, Andrea, , Padre of course.

[00:09:27] Alex Tsakiris: Mm-hmm. . I mean, Padre is at the time that he starts channeling the nine he is. Highly respected professor and medical doctor, uh, and teacher at Northwestern. He’s highly respected by the government, the army, the c i A. He’s like the top, top, top guy, right? And he gets into this channeling of the nine who was this council.

[00:09:52] Alex Tsakiris: Sounds a lot like Valerie Burrow, even though people can pick on poor Valerie Burrow cuz she’s this star woman and stuff like that. What it raises is, you know, the whole issue of what it’s like speaking with the whisper of the spirits and how dangerous that is. And that’s something you have explored too in other things.

[00:10:13] Alex Tsakiris: But I think we need to unpack that kind of scientifically, if you will, and say, okay, because what you’ve done, and I want you to kind of tell the story, what you’ve done has said, okay, might there be anything in there that is useful from a scientific perspective and how would I go about doing that? So what I’d say is the next step, and what I wanna do with you today, if we can’t, is lean into it even more, rather than, you know, compartmentalize and say, okay, it’s wacky, but it’s over there and I’m gonna go forth my stuff.

[00:10:46] Alex Tsakiris: What if we really went there all the way and try to understand the wackiness and why it’s wacky and what other stuff we rely on that’s wacky and how misinformation is wacky in the same way and it’s being used and there’s a whole bunch of stuff there, but. I appreciate you letting me do that long setup, because I want you to understand where I’m going with it.

[00:11:08] Bruce Fenton: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, it’s, um, I think this is again, an issue in human consciousness, isn’t it? That we want even our aliens to be reasonable with us, you know, that they’re supposed to be behaving kind of reasonably, they’re allowed to be a a bit different, you know, like some guy from a far off land is a bit different.

[00:11:30] Bruce Fenton: No, with a different language and culture, but not too different. It can’t be full on, you know, Harry Potter magical weirdness stuff. Oh no. You know, now you’ve gone a bit too far. Now it’s just science fiction, you know, because it’s not fitting into a kind of a prearranged, um, landscape of what aliens should be like.

[00:11:48] Bruce Fenton: yeah. And um, and also sometimes that’s because actually they’re too similar, you know, it, it can be that they’re behaving in a, an extraordinary way, or it could be that they’re too similar. And we say, well, that’s a very human thinking. You must be just projecting human thinking onto the aliens. So I, I think in a way you can’t totally win, you know, because you are always gonna have some element that will be seen as being, well, no, that’s kooky.

[00:12:13] Bruce Fenton: So even if it’s real. And I think that that’s your way, you’re starting with that problem, that there’s an immediate, there’s a preexisting filter. And it’s a bit like, um, the issue they had, they did a project to look at series to see, and they were running some AI to see if they could see anomalies on the Dwarf Planet series.

[00:12:30] Bruce Fenton: Right. And. The, the, the AI picked up geometry and found this what was a triangle, a circle and a square. And some people may have seen this in this, this study. Um, and so, and then they got some people to volunteer and look as well, and the people also saw geometry, right? And so they thought, well, clearly then the AI is being influenced by the human programmers to see stuff that isn’t there in the way that humans do.

[00:12:56] Bruce Fenton: So, you know, it’s like you can’t win, can you? Because like, you pick up something. Well that must be cuz yeah. Is just as, as stupid as we are, right? So that bias, instead of saying maybe there’s something here, let’s look closer, you know, maybe we found so extraordinary. It’s like, hmm, no, well that can’t be it.

[00:13:14] Bruce Fenton: You know, we had to try and normalize that result away somehow. And that seems to be like, as we touched on, that’s across the board, you know, whether it’s coming from spade, whether it’s series, whether it’s, um, you know, paranormal stuff, connecting with contacts that there’s, I don’t know if there’s. that really fits through the, the shape hole that we are being given for alien intelligence.

[00:13:36] Alex Tsakiris: Let me lemme interject there because that, that’s really well said. And I love your point about can’t be too different, can’t be too similar at the same time, you know what you’ve done. And I want you to kind of retrace those steps for people so they understand, uh, because I know I’ve just kind of thrown out Valerie Burrow and Elga.

[00:13:54] Alex Tsakiris: 90% of people are like, have no clue what I’m talking about. So you know what you picked up out of that story. And then also we then we’ll talk about the stuff about that story that would probably set people to going like, wait a minute, dinosaurs were, you know, . I mean, there’s some kind of wackiness to it too, so mm-hmm.

[00:14:15] Alex Tsakiris: lay the basic groundwork, you know, you’re there in Australia, you run across this and then, you know, you, you start piling up evidence to support certain parts of it. That whole process, you know, how were you even able to go, you knew this was the third rail when you touched it, you know, but why did you even go there?

[00:14:35] Alex Tsakiris: I mean, I guess would be one question.

[00:14:37] Bruce Fenton: Yeah, no, that’s, that’s fair. I mean, um, and I’ve touched on it a little bit. I’ve seen the, in the book that, you know, this came out a longer kind of backstory of my life, that, um, particularly going back to around 2002 when I was, I was quite. interested in and experimenting in shamanic practices, mediumship, um, you know, psychic development, you know, all, all of that field I’d got quite sort of drawn into, and this is at the time I was a banker in, in, um, bank National Paris in London.

[00:15:07] Bruce Fenton: And you know, that’s not a life normally that fits very well with that. You know, it’s obviously, again, with preconceptions, people wouldn’t expect you to be involved with those things, right. Cause a very materialist kind of role. But I did get involved with those things and one of the experiences I had working with a shamanic practice was being in an altered state where one of the kind of visionary experiences that I had was suddenly being like on a craft flying towards earth.

[00:15:33] Bruce Fenton: Uh, experienced it being as though I was the being who was piloting this craft, you know, this tall humanoid in this kind of tight fitting blue jumpsuit, and an awareness that this craft is flying away from a disaster in space where a lot of allies have been destroyed and that there’s some pursuit. And that, that was experience I had.

[00:15:51] Bruce Fenton: Now, I had no context for that, just the same as I guess millions of other people who’ve had strange experiences, you know, meditation, trauma, maybe have no context. They just had these extraordinary experiences. So that was kind of filed away in, in the, well, that was weird, you know? Um, then, yeah, many years later when I encountered, um, this story, which is actually because I was collaborating on a book called Ancient Aliens in Australia in 2013.

[00:16:15] Bruce Fenton: Um, Which is a collaboration with Stephen and Evans strong Australian researchers who had been, they were involved with some stuff to do with a backstory of Aboriginal out of Australia theory and also, uh, contact with beings from the cleese kind of, um, stories. So we had had some experiences ourself, particularly Daniela, which we’ve written about in the past, and talked about where she’d had kind of contact experiences and these intelligences claimed to contact with the clear.

[00:16:41] Bruce Fenton: So, you know, there was no overlap. So someone connected us with them and whilst working on that book, they made us aware of Valerie Barrow and her book and how that seemed to tie in, you know, this story of entities from that star cluster coming here. And when I read it, I realized that, you know, that scene with the ship destroyed in space, and people haven’t heard this, there’s, there’s this description of a large craft destroyed in orbit, smaller, a few smaller craft coming down, you know, racing towards earth in pursuit with pursuit behind them, you know, some of them being destroyed.

[00:17:14] Bruce Fenton: And this awareness, obviously this, this disaster. And so, you know, of. Suddenly, uh, you know, those nuances lights up in the back of your brain that have been storing that, that weird experience for, you know, 10 years and realizing that, God, that sounds similar, doesn’t it? That sounds absolutely like why I was kind of shown this little snippet of, so that that’s what made me take more note than just saying, oh, that’s a weird story.

[00:17:37] Bruce Fenton: It’s nothing to do with me. You know, I’ve got other things to do. Instead, I was very intrigued to then follow up and see why did I have that experience? Why am I now connecting with somebody that’s describing, you know, the very, very similar scenario. Um, so when you put that in the, the combine that with the fact that my wife has had some kind of contacts and I’ve had, you know, li less so, she’s a very gifted, intuitive and shaman.

[00:18:02] Bruce Fenton: So her experience is more profound than mine. But I, I’ve also had some levels of, let’s say, picking up information intuitively. So, you know, we both had our experiences, which makes you more open to the possibility of course, of some of these other strange things that you hear. And so when, when I combine my experiences, her experiences, uh, the fit of the information and the size and scale of some of the events described, you know, you put that in, I was thinking, well, if this is real, which feel it might be.

[00:18:33] Bruce Fenton: These events, at least a few of them are on such a big scale that you could potentially look to see if they are falsifiable. Um, and then on, on top of that, you know, I don’t need to go out publicly and do this initially. You know, I could just quietly look at it and see if there’s anything to it, right?

[00:18:51] Bruce Fenton: Because if I found that there wasn’t, then you just, well move on with your life doing other things, even if secretly you believe it, right? You, you don’t need to put it out there. So I kind of set the, the kind of the framework that, you know, unless there was enough there that I could argue that case with a skeptic, you know, um, then I would probably keep it to myself so that that’s how it came about.

[00:19:16] Bruce Fenton: And obviously at some stage I decided that there was enough support for this story, that it was worth putting it out there and being willing to maybe take a few tomatoes in the face from skeptics and debunkers and all the rest of it. Um, but sort of stand your ground and argue that, you know, there is support for this.

[00:19:35] Bruce Fenton: I think it’s

[00:19:35] Alex Tsakiris: real. Well, and I think you, that’s what your work has been about in terms of making that case in a very rigorous way. And people can go listen to the prior interviews. That’s what we talk about. Uh, watch your numerous, read your book. Read your book, make the case, see if you agree. . And then in particular, what’s super great about the sub is it’s kind of updating us and you seem like a very fair, honest researcher in that you’re just putting out, I, I feel like if something came out that severely contradicted your thing mm-hmm.

[00:20:08] Alex Tsakiris: that would be up there too, because you do deal with, you know, it’s not all kind of one sided, but so much of it comes up in alignment with one of some of the stuff that you’ve said. So with that as a background, and I appreciate you laying that out. Now I wanna lean into, uh, Valerie’s channeling experience because I think that’s a real limitation that we have in this community if you’ll allow that, is we want to kind of, you know, again, bracket stuff like, oh, that’s channel material.

[00:20:39] Alex Tsakiris: Just throw all that away. Or, it’s channeled material, but it’s from a really, really good source. Let’s take it all. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And I like where you started with too similar to different, and the other thing that I guess I’d wanna apply to it is storytelling and how storytelling and dream interpretation and, uh, psychic readings are all different examples of where we get into this kind of, Imaginal mixed with the real kind of stuff that we deal with and sort through all the time.

[00:21:16] Alex Tsakiris: And I wonder if we shouldn’t try and apply that same lens to some of this channel material. I feel like that’s what you’ve done. I feel like you need to kind of take the next step and say, what are the limitations of that? Where can I kind of draw the line and say, gosh, you know, when I do run across stuff where Valerie does seem to be kind of in the weeds a little bit and the lion being who says that you know’s gonna do this or that, you know, these reptilians are so bad except this one who’s really smart, nice.

[00:21:51] Alex Tsakiris: And kind of came on our team And it sounds, you know, right out of, uh, so leaning into it, how are you processing, like what information to follow up on, what information not to follow up on and how to understand why some of it may be more imaginable.

[00:22:11] Bruce Fenton: Sure. Yeah, I mean, one of the things I think, you know, if you have, uh, a fairly wide awareness of, say the U f O topic, the alien, you know, ancient aliens or contactee topics, uh, and generally the, let’s say the, the psychical and new age and consciousness topic.

[00:22:28] Bruce Fenton: If, so, if you have a diverse awareness of all those fields, one of the things you know is that there’s a lot of horse shit in there, you know, like spread out across these fields. There’s a lot of horse shit. And also, in many cases, that’s where someone has had a strange experience and they were, they feel that they were given information.

[00:22:47] Bruce Fenton: You know, we can say whether that was from internally an alien, ghost, whatever, but they feel that they were given some kind of profound message. And later on it’s turned out that, that either, all of that was rubbish. or some significant part of it and that they’ve been kind of hoodwinked. And there’s a lot of cases where people’s lives have been ruined, absolutely destroyed like that, that they’ve gone out and they’ve said, you know, the UFOs are landing on the mountain and they’ve told everyone, or they’ve sold their house and you know, they’ve gone all in because it’s so convincing.

[00:23:16] Bruce Fenton: Cuz sometimes, you know, you’ll get something that it’s real. Like for example, you know, say there’s an earthquake next Thursday and that’s the beginning and then, then the earthquake happens, so then these people go all in. And I think that’s, that’s the problem with these kind of fields is that, you know, it’s, they’re so extraordinary and if you are compelled with it, something brings you into it, you can slide very quickly down that rabbit hole and it may not be going where you think it is.

[00:23:39] Bruce Fenton: So, um, you do have to be aware that, you know, that the human mind can conjure up parts of these things, even if you are getting some kind of legitimate information, as you said, you could have a part that’s imaginable to this. And also it’s possible there are intelligences that do provide some information, but for their own reasons are also giving some kind of propaganda or disinformation to you, right?

[00:24:03] Bruce Fenton: In the same way that humans do right to each other. And we can see that we live in a time where of ceaseless propaganda and misinformation and disinformation and half truths. And so, I mean, you, you have to apply that to kind of the paranormal, the aliens fields, the U F O topic, all of that. And you know, I’ve.

[00:24:21] Bruce Fenton: An experience with the events that my, my wife and I had with what was going on with us back in 2012 and 13, where we had information that came to us. And some of that now I would say was, you know, either they didn’t really know what was going on or that they were wrong or whatever, but I definitely went a bit more all-in than, than I probably should have without more critical analysis.

[00:24:44] Bruce Fenton: A and that in many ways I now look at as having been preparation to do this because I, I think otherwise I probably would’ve just gone straight all in on this and not really have been as critical with it as I am. But because having staffing, if you’ve been burned once, right, then you’re not gonna just stick your hand in that fire a second time.

[00:25:03] Bruce Fenton: You know, not without some glove on some kind of protection from knowing that it can hurt. Um, so I, I think that’s perhaps why I, you know, in some ways I’m quite cautious and you’re right saying that, you know, sometimes I’m cautious how I put information out or what I will go all in on or, um, and not saying, you know, I believe everything is true from this.

[00:25:22] Bruce Fenton: Uh, because there’s a long history of, of that kind of result from just believing a ghost or an alien or, or your inner self or whatever. And then finding that that’s a half true and, and just enough rope to hang yourself with is given, you know? Um, so that, that’s kind of how I’ve, I’ve framed this cause I look at it and I can say that, you know, there’s this enormous kind of body of information, this larger story.

[00:25:47] Bruce Fenton: you know, with 40 odd people involved, Alex, you know, so it’s an enormous case really. There’s, you know, when I spoke to Valerie and I met her at her home, she said, you know, there was, yeah, I think it was like 45 people or something like that, who over the course of the few years when she was really heavily kind of involved with what was happening, that they would either come to her house kind of spontaneously, or sometimes it was clients for her regression, um, you know, business, sometimes people that she didn’t know in a car park.

[00:26:13] Bruce Fenton: Someone stopped and start telling her that it had all these memories, um, people that she showed pictures of the gospel glyphs to, sometimes they would just start pretend they remembered this story. So it was a really weird kind of backstory, but there’s, you know, 40 odd people. So that’s, that’s massive and complex already cuz you’ve got all those people and what was going on in their heads and their lives and, you know, were they telling the truth and, you know, so put that on top of it.

[00:26:35] Bruce Fenton: And then a reincarnation aspect that, you know, people are saying they remember living in that life, not just that they’re seeing visions of an alien spaceship, but they’re experiencing it as having lived in that time. Either as, as an alien or as an early hoon or as a, you know, either side of the aliens, they’re friendly and bad aliens.

[00:26:54] Bruce Fenton: Um, that adds two layers of complex, you know, it’s like a reincarnation, which again, is controversial. Um, and then on top of that, the idea that, you know, multiple aliens are involved here, you know, you can see how it’s spanning out. And then you’ve got more and more people, more complexity, more areas that are completely unprovable.

[00:27:13] Bruce Fenton: Or not even very easy to support at all. Uh, lots of people I don’t know that I’ve never met involved in that backstory. Uh, many of whom I, I think passed on, you know, including Valerie unfortunately, has passed on. So, you know, and Jerry, the other, like I say, the other main person in this story, Jerry, the Aboriginal elder, you know, he’s passed on, so it’s not like, can go to them now and, you know, get more directly from their perspective.

[00:27:39] Bruce Fenton: And I don’t know who these other people are, so there’s a lot of kinda limitations around that. Right. So, so you are aware with what you’ve got ,

[00:27:46] Alex Tsakiris: and that’s what I wanna do, mm-hmm. , because the, the amazing thing and the really wonderful thing about what you bring to this is you do have this scientific rigor and you do have the, the means to understand the science that a, a lot of people in this field don’t.

[00:28:05] Alex Tsakiris: So you speak with authority because you have read this stuff in, in, get it right. Mm-hmm. , what I thought would be interesting is, again, let’s lean into the accounts of this experience of these 40 people who brought through the Elga stuff. Mm-hmm. . And let’s go through the three major kind of components of your findings, and then I’d like you to kind of.

[00:28:30] Alex Tsakiris: Reexamine the story and see where you think it might go, where you think there might be dead ends to the story or where it probably shouldn’t go. You know? So we could even start with the, the ship, you know? So you’re finding these, you have this amazing body of s research of data that you’ve put together on these astral tech types.

[00:28:52] Alex Tsakiris: Mm-hmm. and people can go look at that. Um, so. Else is there in the channeled material that we would wanna pursue further? And what might we, you know, kind of call into question, like, one of the things I always seem kind of strange to me is, you know, they keep stressing that the ship is defenseless. The ship is defenseless.

[00:29:15] Alex Tsakiris: It’s just an, and at the same time, there’s the police force that comes in and bombards the planet, you know, five, it doesn’t really add up totally. Or that they’re on this mission and they’re gonna, it’s gonna take a long time to get there. Why does it take such a long time? How long is that time? And they’re all living this kind of communal lifestyle and kind of stuff.

[00:29:38] Alex Tsakiris: A lot of it seems like mm-hmm. to use your thing a little bit too similar, a little bit too much, like these other stories we’ve heard. Yeah. So my, the bigger question, if I can pull back to it again, is what part of the, the craft do you feel compelled to pursue further and pull into your deep dive from a scientific standpoint?

[00:30:02] Alex Tsakiris: And what part do you wanna leave behind?

[00:30:05] Bruce Fenton: Yeah, I mean, sure. It’s, I mean, I mean, just for quick, for people aren’t too aware. I mean, you know, obviously this, it starts off with a, a very extraordinary event. This, um, the trip to Gosford, you know, where you’ve got an aboriginal elder has turned up at Valerie’s house after she’s received this Asian artifact, a taringa, you know, now she’s got an aboriginal elder knocking on the door.

[00:30:25] Bruce Fenton: So a strange synchronous kind of situation. Uh, he suggests going to Gosford, uh, where there’s an aboriginal sacred site. There’s also these controversial Egyptian like hi glass with a whole other controversy of whether those are old or not. Um, but he’s suggesting to go there and so they go there and he has a time slip and a time slip.

[00:30:43] Bruce Fenton: Yeah. Another weird, wacky kind of claim that most people would dismiss Rightaway. But at the same time, you and I know there is accounts of. Out there in, you know, in the paranormal world where people suddenly find that they’re in the same place but in a different time. I mean, there’s a couple of famous case in there with the two teachers in the Garden of Asai where suddenly they see these people in costumes.

[00:31:03] Bruce Fenton: They think that they’re some kind of reproduction, and then they walk through this mist web and they’re back to the park. So they have that kind of experience, but now they’re seeing a crashed craft down in the water. Um, they’re remembering being these visitors, you know, one of them remembers being the pilot of the Crashed Craft.

[00:31:19] Bruce Fenton: Um, and they get this information. So it begins with, you know, highly extraordinary kind of plunging straight over the edge of the cliff weirdness. Right. You know, it, it’s not as simple as, say someone sat and meditated and they’ve got this download. You know, should we hear about, you know, this is like, it’s a much more full on straightaway there’s a barrier to people cuz they can probably take the download stuff easier than the time slip and feeling like that was your past life.

[00:31:45] Bruce Fenton: That’s some really hardcore weird right at the get-go. Right. And then, so then they obviously see this craft, this giant. They’re told it’s a, you know, a giant living ship that’s been grown on a planet somewhere. It’s not made, it’s grown and imbued with consciousness. So it’s alive. So, I mean, it’s very quickly expanding into really quite extraordinary, and for the time, quite advanced sci-fi kind of concepts, right?

[00:32:09] Bruce Fenton: That, you know, 3D printed living silica ships that are, you know, moon sized flying around out there. I mean, now, yeah, the cutting edge of science is kind of talking about that stuff right now. Alex, you know, but at the time you’re thinking if this is just, you know, like a new age lady singing her house, imagining stuff, I’ll give her some credit.

[00:32:27] Bruce Fenton: Because even those concepts alone, like amazing where most people would never think of that kind of richness of detail, you know, that even the ship is not made, you know, it’s grown from silicone in some, you know, matrix, and then he’s impeded with a living content. Why would you go there? Like, why not just say there was a spaceship and it came here and, you know, so those kind of details as well.

[00:32:48] Bruce Fenton: I was fine. I think that in itself is compelling because it does make you wonder, you know, if someone who has no experience of writing science fiction, and yet they’re coming up and, and it’s not a scientist, they’re not, they’re not, I know from me, she’s not someone who’s reading new scientists or something, right?

[00:33:04] Bruce Fenton: So this isn’t someone who you expect to have these concepts, especially back in like the, uh, the early nineties and stuff, you know? Uh, That alone is kind of, I think, should make people just scratch their head a little bit. You know? Cause they can look at Valley’s life and say, well this is the person who’s going to, you know, Ash Rams in India and doing a meditation and too much star people, but yet where is she getting these concepts?

[00:33:25] Bruce Fenton: We are now looking at the forefront of science as to how we expect advanced intelligence is to actually behave and the kind of technologies we think they probably would have.

[00:33:34] Alex Tsakiris: Can I ask a specific question about that? Because I think that’s awesome. I love where you took that. This is one of the hottest issues right now because of the advancement, the huge leap we’ve made in, uh, in ai.

[00:33:47] Alex Tsakiris: So the question is, is AI going to be imbued with consciousness? How would that come about? Would it be from some external source? Would it organically just kind of emerge in it all the rest of that? Is it even possible? Again, you are like super plugged into so many different topics. Mm-hmm. , where do you think we’re gonna wind up in five or 10 years in terms of testing out that idea?

[00:34:12] Bruce Fenton: Yeah. I mean it’s, firstly, I know that, you know, looking at the work of, um, I’m trying to think of the lady’s name. There’s an excellent essay called Alien Minds. Like, I dunno if you’ve ever read this, but basically it’s an as of kind of what you might expect of alien technologies.

[00:34:27] Bruce Fenton: You know, particularly, um, there’s a look at silica as an alternative to kind of carbon for life forms and how you can, you can essentially, with silica, you can have enormous kind of constructs of silica, right? So you can have like a moon sized silica like computing technology. So in other words, like a super brain, right?

[00:34:48] Bruce Fenton: Which, cause we are limited by the size of our head, right? You know, a, a silica state kind of AI is not limited in its size. So the, so the processing power can be unbelievable. So if we start with that, okay, so it can do amazing things. Now is it, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s self-aware consciousness, right?

[00:35:06] Bruce Fenton: And it’s truly alive. But you, you can certainly start with the premise that if you have a big enough silco construct that it would be able to compute, you know, things that we can’t imagine thinking through. And you could do that in seconds, you know, split seconds and, oh yes, I understand, you know, the motion of four star systems and how they, the stars would, you know, whereas we would probably spend.

[00:35:26] Bruce Fenton: Years and years and years of top minds trying to understand the dynamics of that star system, right? The, a brain that size, a computer that size would do that probably in seconds. So, but that doesn’t mean computing power isn’t the same as self-referential consciousness and an awareness right. Of self and who I am.

[00:35:43] Bruce Fenton: So I, I’m, I tend to lean more towards the feeling that we live in a conscious universe. And if you build systems that are sufficiently complex to allow that consciousness to be imbued into it, that that is almost like if you build it, it will come that I, I think that the consciousness is arising into the machine rather than from the machine.

[00:36:02] Bruce Fenton: Because you’re creating something that will allow non-physical consciousnesses, right? That are out there, I believe, I suspect that could then inhabit that. Cause if the universe itself is conscious, you know, that kind of view, which, you know, many people take, I, I suspect that that is the case. I think that fundamentally in the beginning there was already consciousness, no matter what that universe looked like in that first second, you know, I believe it had consciousness in it and that it has risen into us, the animals and probably, you know, I dunno, crystal matrixes in the ground and stuff.

[00:36:34] Bruce Fenton: And it’s things that we don’t recognize as life, but there’s consciousness out there in all sorts of strange forms, I imagine in strange forms, right? That’s my personal feeling. Now, of course, I can’t, um, support that because one of the problems we have cause is we, we only have the, uh, the reference of one planet.

[00:36:51] Bruce Fenton: So we can say what’s happened on Earth and that’s how things are developed. But we don’t really know, I mean, there’s questions now of what is life, let’s say life, l y f, the idea that there’s life. That’s not the way we think of it. And again, that could be something like living crystal Matrix is in a moon somewhere where we will look at it and think it was alive, but technically it is alive.

[00:37:10] Bruce Fenton: Right? Um, so I do wonder about that. I think it’s more likely that, yeah, if you build a, a computer system complex enough, that allows for a brain-like, um, experience that, that may then allow something to enter into the system that becomes life, right? So that’s, that’s my personal feeling.

[00:37:30] Alex Tsakiris: , great.

[00:37:30] Alex Tsakiris: And I think it’s kind of more than personal. I think you, you back it up in a really great way and we’re gonna move on to genetics and emetic and genetic engineering, but, I think it’s interesting and you point this out in Exogenesis and in, I think in the recent, one of the recent, uh, techno signature CK articles, but that there’s a parallel that, you know, build, build it and they will come, relates to consciousness too, you know, in terms of build it sophisticated enough and then consciousness comes in.

[00:38:01] Alex Tsakiris: The one thing I wanted to backtrack and talk about is the time slip, because I think you are completely right. I think this is, uh, uh, back to the future with or without the DeLorean kind of thing, uncomfortable science fiction. Where do we go with it? But at the same time, we should be so much more comfortable with this than we are.

[00:38:19] Alex Tsakiris: And people have pre-cognitive dreams all the time. I mean, just go talk to your extended family and you’ll certainly found accounts of somebody who had a pre-cognitive dream that is a time slip, right? They are traveling in time and we all realize that we travel back in time kind of more frequently if we look at those cases.

[00:38:37] Alex Tsakiris: So it’s interesting again, like you were saying before of like, you know, I don’t see a space ship, uh, I don’t see any time slips. No, I’m anchored into this time space continuum. Okay. I don’t wanna go down too far. You brought up a great one on the ship, right? One place that Valerie’s account more broadly than Valerie.

[00:38:57] Alex Tsakiris: Cuz like you said, there’s, there’s other people that are kind of involved in bringing this forward. Anything else about the ship? The technology associated with that, that you see on your horizon that could be brought in from that story and turned into something more scientific?

[00:39:15] Bruce Fenton: Yeah, I mean it’s, um, I mean there’s somewhat limited details, you know, so it’s in terms of this, you know, the ship in specifics, you know, we know that there’s, the claim obviously had beings on board and that, so there wasn’t just a living ship, um, that there was some kind of biology on board beings, apparently plants and all sorts of other things.

[00:39:36] Bruce Fenton: There’s, so there’s additional aspects to it, not just, you know, a robot flying around. Um, you know, I guess one of things interests me is, see is the possibility that someone with the, the knowledge of, of engineering and chemistry and that could look at the components in tech types and say, well, why would you build.

[00:39:57] Bruce Fenton: A ship from that, you know? Or why would you build an AI structure using those chemicals, you know, this much silica, this much aluminum, this much of, you know, bosphorous magnesium and, you know, so that, that’s an angle that I would really love to explore with someone who has that knowledge. Perhaps a scientist in the, you know, in that world of building spaceships or building computer systems to them to actually kind of reverse engineer the thinking of an intelligence that would use those specific, um, components.

[00:40:24] Bruce Fenton: Because, cause I, I don’t have that knowledge. I mean, I’ve looked curs and seen that, I think with some of the NASA spaceships, certainly there’s an overlap with the, with the chemicals that have been found in these tech types. Um, but you know, obviously it’s not gonna be absolutely the same because it about very different kind of technology.

[00:40:41] Bruce Fenton: But if somebody does have that kind of knowledge in the cutting edge of this field, you know, could they then look at that and go back through it and say, well, yeah, I can see why you’d want to be putting ala mink and with, um, with Foster, you know, in the shell of this craft. I can see why that would help with, you know, computer processing or, um, of course the problem we have is that this is all mixed, you know, it melted, so it’s come down as as glass.

[00:41:06] Bruce Fenton: So it, it’s not like a chunk of the frame, you know, where you can hold it up and say, well, that, that’s obviously part of a computer panel or something, you know, which of course is the ideal. The other side of this I touched on a bit in the CK is, you know, there is the potential that maybe parts of this craft went down into Antarctica.

[00:41:24] Bruce Fenton: So now, I have no real way to go there and do that. But obviously there are satellite imaging and you know, there is stuff going on down there, you know, a lot of the time, very secretive, weird stuff going on down there. Not so that’s spawned lots of conspiracies, uh, theories, you know, but, cause we don’t know really what are the researchers down Antarctica, you know, there is the potential, I think, to explore whether or not there are larger unmelted pieces of the frame that have gone into the ice or somewhere else along that debris path that maybe somebody out there somewhere has got a chunk of something weird in their house, you know, that they found out walking in the outback and they’ve just put it in the house.

[00:42:04] Bruce Fenton: You know? Cause again, I, I know that kind of stuff happens, right? People find artifacts, they find things and they become family heirlooms or whatever, you know, but they don’t know what to do with it. But it might well be that someone does have something like that, you know, a piece that broke the atmosphere and he came down in a relatively unchurched trace.

[00:42:19] Bruce Fenton: The more the awareness there is of this kind of this narrative, the more chance we have somebody who reaches out and says, you know, well, I know something. Or, you know, I’ve had an additional experience or a scientist who says, well, I looked at what you were doing and you know what, I don’t want my name on it.

[00:42:33] Bruce Fenton: But I think that that makes sense. Some of that, you know, I, I think that there is room for those kind of additions to this story. But you know, you do need some people with additional knowledge bases who could come in and help. And I think that’s, that is definitely where we are kind of keen to take this project, is to try and expand and to talk to other people that have expertise in areas that relate to this and who could maybe offer insights even anonymously or with their face on, on the topic, you know, which I understand that I don’t have an academic career to, to lose, so I don’t have to to think of that.

[00:43:07] Bruce Fenton: I mean, I, I would hope other people didn’t feel that they had to lose their career just to talk to us. Right. But, you know, that is definitely another angle to it. Also, of course, you know, there’s the claim that this ship, one of these smaller ships went down in the, the waters off of Gosford is that there, could someone go out with a, uh, you know, with ground, uh, what’s called, you know, radar systems on a boat and skim up and down there and find an anomaly buried in the mud there, right?

[00:43:33] Bruce Fenton: Because I mean, if we found like a disk shaped anomaly sitting under, you know, 50 meters of myrle something out in the bay just off from where the goswick cliffs are, well that, that would be an amazing result. And I’ve had people say, you know, maybe you should get top remote viewers and people are on that and see, you know, do they feel that that is still there?

[00:43:52] Bruce Fenton: Because if this material is fairly impervious to time, this silica type material, which I, I think can last almost indefinitely, , it’s potentially there, you know, that just needs enough people to be interested to kind of fund that. Um, or you know, somebody who already has that technology to just go up and down the bay, you know, just see if it’s there.

[00:44:13] Bruce Fenton: I so easy said I can’t do it. Right. That doesn’t mean other people can’t do it, and particularly if the. The information is engaging enough for people to feel it’s real, then it’s some of the most important work you could do in your life. You know, if you have that boat already, you know, why not? Kind of thing.

[00:44:28] Bruce Fenton: This, it’s where for go. We’ve done searches for less interesting things with less results. I mean, look, lot less monster. Look, people have done that plenty of times, haven’t they? They’ve gone up and down the lock, you know, with all kinds of technology, with submarines, um, you know, lots of expeditions for that, right?

[00:44:45] Bruce Fenton: I, I think looking for a crashed alien spaceship is no, no wacky than looking for a giant pless saw in a Scottish lake. So, and the results, if you found it, are far more meaningful than finding that the store, right? So, yeah, that’s another angle. I, so the, there are things that can be done, and they may only exclude the reality of those things, but that’s also scientific work, right?

[00:45:07] Bruce Fenton: Is that sometimes you get a null result, but you exclude that possibility and say, well, we did it. You know, and it’d be, I’m sure it would have a lot of public interest. You said, we’re looking for a crashed alien spaceship in the bay. I mean, I imagine that that’s gonna have some benefits for whoever does that, right?

[00:45:22] Bruce Fenton: Even just to advertise their boat company or whatever it is, you know? Um, I think there’s a lot of potential in those kinds of areas. Yeah, I think there are people out there that have skillsets and, and have information, maybe have artifacts that we can, you know, eventually engage with and find. Maybe a bit more on that side of it.

[00:45:41] Bruce Fenton: And again, yeah, like the ship side of it, I think it just needs some other people with perspectives that I don’t necessarily appreciate in terms of building these technologies. Um, you know, cause I’m obviously self-educating as much as I can, but like any of us, you know, you can only learn so much as one person, you know, trying to learn multiple disciplines for a topic that really ranges across, uh, you know, computer technologies, aerospace, uh, ancient history, genetics, archeology, you know, that there’s, I’m, I’m a reasonably smart person, but I don’t think anyone can, can know, you know, the full breadth of all those topics, right.

[00:46:18] Bruce Fenton: That you do need these people in these different disciplines.

[00:46:21] Alex Tsakiris: , so that’s awesome. I mean, you really delivered even more than I could imagine on that. What if we moved over to the, uh, genetic component?

[00:46:29] Alex Tsakiris: So first recap, where you took that from the, from the, the channel material, what you found in just a very high level thing, and then where that might go,

[00:46:42] Bruce Fenton: sure. Yeah. So part of the information that was given is this, I, well, certainly the, the story tells this kale of the, after the destruction of this craft that some survivors, a few survivors come to earth, and that these, these beings realize they can’t survive.

[00:46:57] Bruce Fenton: Now, I should just quickly clarify here. There’s another bit that I founds quite logical and fascinating, is that this is such that they were intending to modify themselves using these genetic technologies, but the loss of their craft leads them only partially adapted to this environment. And I find that’s kind of intriguing itself cuz you rarely hear that kind of detail in people’s stories.

[00:47:18] Bruce Fenton: Like, the aliens are just walking around on earth, you know, like, how, how are they doing this? You know, why isn’t there problems with the air and gravity? And, you know, and we, and there’s a lot of these claims out there, but hang on, if they have the technologies to modify themselves to other environments, that makes good sense.

[00:47:32] Bruce Fenton: I mean, NASA is now looking at that. They’re looking at the idea of future astronauts being modified for space environment. So this stuff, again, it sounds at first wacky, but we’re gonna, we’re not doing that. You know, we’re gonna do that. And so in that account they say, well, we can’t survive. You know, the air is affecting them, the bacteria’s affecting them, sunlight’s affecting them.

[00:47:51] Bruce Fenton: So we can’t colonize this planet. And this idea originally is that they, you know, have been handed over the planet from a more negative group that they’re gonna change this to being part of a more, I suppose we would look at it as a more benevolent. Civilization and a more malevolent civilization. Um, and so they intend to then instead of, well, I put this in my last, is you’d rather colonizing the planet.

[00:48:12] Bruce Fenton: It’s colonized the hoons that live here.

[00:48:15] Alex Tsakiris: Let me interject something there, because like, this is interesting in the way that it relates back to the ship and the AI and . Mm-hmm. allowing consciousness to come forth. And no one talks about this enough cuz everyone, uh, just vapor locks on the spiritual thing and on the the God thing.

[00:48:31] Alex Tsakiris: And I just had this terrific interview with, uh, Mary Radwell and I keep hammering on this issue. Does et have an N D E? You know, does et have a life review? Is et going through the same kind of rebirth, rebirth, learning, growing kind of thing? Mm-hmm. , what you are saying can only really be interpreted through that lens, right?

[00:48:52] Alex Tsakiris: So these people are, these, these beings, these intelligences see it as the moral imperative to bring about some form mm-hmm. through which consciousness can continue to flow. And that is not a technical nuts and bolts thing as we would understand it. Uh, it could be, but it sure sounds more like this kind of spiritual, uh, flowering of god’s love kind of thing without going too far there.

[00:49:21] Alex Tsakiris: Do you wanna talk about that for a minute? Because Sure. I think that’s, that’s right beneath the surface, but we don’t often talk about what that means. You talked about with the craft, but here they are kind of doing the same thing with their genetic program.

[00:49:35] Bruce Fenton: Yeah. I mean, look in, in a way you can almost sum up these beings as like space evangelists, right?

[00:49:43] Bruce Fenton: So, I mean, it’s not just about an expanding galactic empire, you know, with these cold robots needing more materials or, or something like that, which are kind of familiar memes in the sci-fi kind of world. But this is a bit unfamiliar. It’s, it’s more about a religiosity and, you know, metaphysics and spirituality that seem to be a part of the framework of this collective of intelligence is out there.

[00:50:07] Bruce Fenton: That they have this interest in the idea of, you know, elevating the cosmos, you know, so that it’s more like the way that they think it should be, rather than just that, yeah, we’re gonna out and we’re just gonna colonize these planet. There’s an interest. They could just colonize any odd empty planet, right?

[00:50:22] Bruce Fenton: I mean, it’s a big, big galaxy. So if, if it was just about, say, expanding your territories, I, there’s not any particular focus on coming here, you know, in that, in that way, right? So it’s not that. So they, they have this whole plan, this idea that it’s important that life on this planet is heading in a certain direction towards a certain kind of spiritual, uh, uh, perspective.

[00:50:43] Bruce Fenton: And that, you know, they want things to. To have the framework here to be one that allows an elevating of consciousness and allows beings to be free and to experience these higher states. It seems to be, that’s kind of the, their mindset is the beings that currently hold the planet at that time are very unlike that and believe in slavery and oppression and using genetic technologies for kind of, kind of callous and cold reasons.

[00:51:07] Bruce Fenton: And, and that they don’t agree with that. There’s kind of ideological differences. So they are kind of almost evangelizing to these other group. They want them to stop doing that. They’ve made a negotiation to, to hand over the planet and allow them to bring it back into the fold of this other mindset. Um, and then this conflict arises where there’s kind of a betrayal and the ship’s destroyed.

[00:51:27] Bruce Fenton: So, I mean, to me it’s, it’s almost more like, uh, warring religious systems than it is simply empires building, you know, through the darkness of space. And that’s kind of an unexpected, I think, aspect for people. They don’t like to think about what is the religious views of an alien race and stuff like that.

[00:51:44] Bruce Fenton: Those are, those are kind of concepts that you, I guess you don’t have a lot of, except really cerebral science fiction perhaps, where people go down that route of, you know, what do the aliens really want out of the universe? Cuz I mean, we, we don’t. Consider that enough. I think because, you know, if they have a perspective, they think it’s the best.

[00:52:03] Bruce Fenton: In the same way that we have religions who believe that they have the best way of living, the best ideas the way you should do everything, right. That we, we don’t tend to put that onto aliens, you know, but we can’t assume that they don’t also have some drives like that. Cause those also drives that have made us expand and do all sorts of things.

[00:52:21] Bruce Fenton: So why couldn’t those expand? You know, outspend empires as well.

[00:52:25] Alex Tsakiris: True. And you’re also spinning it very appropriately in, in one direction, which is almost like a kind of, uh, uh, tic kind of, uh, way. The other is that there’s a moral imperative that they are in line with, right? So there is ultimately a good and a bad.

[00:52:43] Alex Tsakiris: There is choice, there is free will, but ultimately ascending to that higher vibration of is not only, , preferred because it doesn’t always turn out that way, but that is like, go to the data I would throw on the table is a near death experience and study it however you want, and go to the best researchers who say, okay, give it to me straight.

[00:53:06] Alex Tsakiris: No religiosity, no bullshit. You know, just, what is it? Well, 90% of the people come back and say, it’s about love, number one. It’s not about a tunnel dead relatives. It’s about love, which aligns perfectly. with what these folks are saying. Mm-hmm. . So it, it, that also could be another way to understand this is that the moral imperative is love, expansion, growth, uh, self-development, learning.

[00:53:34] Alex Tsakiris: And there is this other aspect which you know, kind of creeps in, that is the control, dominate, fear, , hoard kind of thing. Mm-hmm. and both exist, but one is really the direction, you know, so Yeah. That’s the other way to, to understand this too, rather than, you know, the Christians, uh, , you know, going and fighting the Muslims in the Crusades, it’s like, no, they’re really tuning into what we all learned when we were five years old in kindergarten.

[00:54:03] Alex Tsakiris: And that is, we know the difference between right and wrong. And if we do, right? Mm-hmm. , it doesn’t always seem like the what we want at the time, but in the long run, it’s really what we do want. Which I think, so I’m not saying that has to be true, but I’m saying mm-hmm. , that is, uh, uh, to me a reasonable overlay on this story as, as you pointed out.

[00:54:25] Bruce Fenton: Well, yeah. I mean, and, and you’re quite right to touch on say the NDE and some these experiences because look, if. If all conscious beings out there, you know, wherever they are, we assume that there’s lots of conscious beings out there in this unfathomably, huge universe. Um, if they all also experience, you know, life, you know, some sort of manifesting of birth, whatever you wanna call it for them, some kind of period of growth and life and a period of, you know, where they are dying and death and that they have looked into that same darkness and that, that, you know, that some of them have come back from there with stories, you know, that why wouldn’t other civilizations be, in some part guided by the visions of beyond the veil, you know, and, and deaf and, and if they have synchronicity, strange synchronicities that happen on their world like happened to us here, you know, everyone’s probably got a tale of a strange synchronicity if those happen to those beings in their course of evolution and development that, you know, why wouldn’t they also be having guided by these experiences?

[00:55:17] Bruce Fenton: And if they have intuition and psychic events like humans have, why wouldn’t they be guided by those? So that to find some commonality with a an alien being might not be so surprising because if those are literally kind of parts of the fabric of the universe that you know, you will have an experience of a deaf type experience, you will have some of these strange guiding senses of synchronicities and strange coincidences and, you know, sometimes insights that come from nowhere.

[00:55:45] Bruce Fenton: If that is really a universal thing, then we would expect some overlaps with those beings. , they would’ve been guided by some of the same stuff that has guided our development, right? So even if it was long ago that it was important, it would’ve guided and shaped parts of their thinking and their, their, say spirituality, uh, or religions or whatever you would, you would expect some of that in there.

[00:56:08] Bruce Fenton: So I don’t think it’s so shocking that we’d have overlaps. And also if they have, as this information suggests, had a guiding effect on us, well, why wouldn’t we have commonality with them again? Because, you know, then our thinking is, is alien thinking, right? Because the aliens help give you your thinking.

[00:56:26] Bruce Fenton: So when you recognize in them say, well, they’re too similar, you know, oh, why do they think stuff that we, where Ur, you know, they’ve shaped some of your thinking at some point and nudged you in a certain direction. So again, I think if you look at it like that, we’ve been sort of evangelized, cosmic evangelized too.

[00:56:44] Bruce Fenton: And that’s kind of, yeah. In the experience, this is another angle of the research where I’m, I’m looking to delve into in the CK is the idea that, you know, it’s not just that you can look and see the bits of the. Or traces of genetic engineering or this cosmic bombardment that’s discussed, you know, multi-directional , mostly very big events, but also they talk about, you know, teaching us to cook, right?

[00:57:05] Bruce Fenton: Use fire and teaching us about spirituality and about living together and love and stuff. So that, so if you are giving people the, you say the good of fire, that’s kind of traceable. There’s people looking at that and we now know that at the moment the evidence suggests the first cooking fires were used about 780,000 years ago.

[00:57:24] Bruce Fenton: Oh, that’s funny. Timing isn’t Alex considering that. All the other stuff in this story around 780,000 years ago. So it turns out that now cooking fires seem to be first used around the same time. And, and on top of that, you’ve got this idea. They’ve shaped us by teaching us. Well, Cubans are the only organism on this planet that is considered to be self domesticated.

[00:57:45] Bruce Fenton: Right. Well that’s funny, isn’t it? It’s funny how we, the only ones that somehow can self domesticate, no other animals, all the others were domesticated by us. Right? So doesn’t that suggest that maybe just, maybe it wasn’t self domestication, right? That that fits very much with the idea. Someone was there at the beginning to teach us and was teaching us how to be in a certain way.

[00:58:07] Bruce Fenton: So we can also look at those like non-physical aspects of contact. How would contact shape us going forward, right? And so that’s one of the ways, and the fact that we see like copious evidence of domestication, I think is, is really telling because no one’s come up with a convincing explanation for how any organism self domesticates.

[00:58:28] Bruce Fenton: Right? If I don’t find it, let me know cuz I have seen nothing That sounds sensible to me. Uh, there there’s other examples where. I mean, I don’t go too often tangent. Cause you know, I’m like, Asperger’s, we go off, you know, an angle. But just very quickly, there’s um, a hard barrier in like language or language is mysterious.

[00:58:46] Bruce Fenton: That’s, again, that’s considered probably the, the hardest or second hardest problem in consciousness is language. But how did we develop this language? Nobody know. Nobody understands that he’s taking for granted. It just, oh, it just developed. But you look at the, what the consciousness studies people are saying, well, we haven’t got a clue really how that’s come about.

[00:59:04] Bruce Fenton: This is amazing that we can just be thinking these ideas go blah, blah, and then someone else understands that and they get a picture, oh yeah, blah, blah, blah. That, that is way weirder than, than we really ever, you know, think into. And where did that come? And then later on we get, um, a structure of thinking, which allows you to put time and place, you know, in the future into your mind.

[00:59:25] Bruce Fenton: So you kind of say, tomorrow we’ll go to the river together, we’ll fish and we’ll cook the fish, and then we’ll take, then we don’t think of that as amazing, but as far as we know, no other animals can really do that. That they, we can plot and plan across space and time in real complex ways. Turns out that we, we, we don’t think we could do that until about 70,000 years ago when there was a br a weird brain change, right?

[00:59:48] Bruce Fenton: And they said not only do you need a brain change, but you need to be exposed to the language system and thinking that that allows that brain region to switch on. And you have to be exposed to it by about age five or six. Otherwise, you’re one of these like feral wolf children who never really recover, right?

[01:00:04] Bruce Fenton: That they can’t do that. So who did, who was there, right? Alex, who was this teacher that is teaching these first children with this weird brain change? How, how to think in those ways because nobody else on the planet’s supposed to have it. It’s just like a spontaneous mutation and you need someone to guide you with it.

[01:00:22] Bruce Fenton: And yet somehow, so there’s all these little, well, not little, there’s all these really big glaring anomalies in this story that, that people skip over because you just feel like, well there must be a normal explanation, you know, because oh, we just talk and we just think like that, you know, We’re not encouraged to question that, are we Alex?

[01:00:41] Bruce Fenton: I mean, we go for our lives and it, it’d be very easy to go for your life and never even think h h how do we talk? Where did that come from? So basic and no would even ask you to question it. So I don’t know that, I think there’s a lot of angles to this story that, um, we potentially could end up going down because, you know, if it’s we’ve been shaped, then we can probably find, you know, reverse engineer who we are, how we think, how we speak, all this stuff, back to some kind of formative events that have set us apart from the other animals in the, in this way.

[01:01:13] Bruce Fenton: And that a lot of them seem to have a connection to genetics as well. You know, the genetic elements to why we can talk, why we can do things we can do. So it’s not separate from the anomalies in the genome. You know, it seems that the two things go together. Um,

[01:01:28] Alex Tsakiris: that’s fantastic. Terrific. , and, and let’s take it the, the other direction in terms of forward, you know, cuz you’ve, you’ve kind of mainly look back in a really super interesting way that supports what you’re doing.

[01:01:40] Alex Tsakiris: What if we look forward, you know, I I, I love Dean Raden, even though he’s kind of been my punching bag lately. Dr. Dean Raden, because he started this biotech and the purpose of the biotech is, hey, maybe we could, I’ve been studying psychic phenomenon for 30 years. I’ve, we’ve even gotten to the point of looking at, uh, genetic correlates.

[01:02:02] Alex Tsakiris: Wow. What if we could jab somebody and then they became more psychic? Or as he speculates, what if they had a mind that was more of a hive mind, you know, instead of blowing each other up, we’re more like the bees, we’re all kind of working together kind of thing. And I usually kind of roll this into a transhumanism, uh, a rant, you know, , which, but here’s the other way and let’s spin it the other way, which is where you’re going, which is, okay, what if That’s exactly what’s happened,

[01:02:35] Alex Tsakiris: And you know, when I just talked to Mary Rodwell, uh, recently, who’s done regressions with, uh, thousands of people, and I really believe her, uh, technique is solid. I think her rigor is really up to par. And she’s, uh, you know, she’s worked with a lot of other people who have other diverse ways of doing it.

[01:02:55] Alex Tsakiris: They all come to the same conclusion. So what does that mean in terms of what might the future upgrades to the genetic code mean in terms of some of these things that we don’t normally talk about? Because a, again, usually it’s anything but those things. It’s like, how can we be smarter? How can we be faster?

[01:03:15] Alex Tsakiris: How can we be stronger instead of, what if it changed fundamentally the way we related to each other? What if it changed fundamentally to the way that we related to. Spirit, whatever that is, or these extended consciousness realms. I’m gonna quit saying spirit cuz I don’t know what any of that means, but people get the point.

[01:03:35] Alex Tsakiris: What do you think on that?

[01:03:36] Bruce Fenton: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. No, I mean it’s, it definitely changed from my thinking, like, because you know, there’s a, I think you, if you cover these topics from what we would tend to think of, yeah. Like a spiritual or metaphysical kind of view that we, most people in that kind of community have a fairly strong rejection of utilizing say cybernetics and DNA changing and that, you know, that side of it.

[01:04:01] Bruce Fenton: But then, yeah, if, if we were to find that, well there’s two things we could find. One thing is we could find that DNA itself is a technology is a biotech, right? Developed in an advanced lab on some distance world and it’s used to terraform Barron Worlds. And I thought by that many times, cuz it’s perfect for it, you spray it down, fly away and it just unfolds and it creates a biosphere that would suit that world, right?

[01:04:28] Bruce Fenton: So if, if it is biotech then say modifying biotech, it’s not that wild really. You know? And then the other side of that is if, okay, maybe it’s not, but if we individually as humans, if we were modified as you say we’ve, if you’ve already been modified there, there’s not really the same argument to say, you know, we are corrupting nature by doing this.

[01:04:48] Bruce Fenton: It’s like, well hang on a minute. We’ve already been derailed down that path. So if anything, maybe we should be looking at the patches. For where things weren’t done right. And so that’s kind of where I’m a bit more at is that I don’t necessarily think we should just go like open Pandora’s box and just create cents and stuff.

[01:05:06] Bruce Fenton: But at, at the same time I started to think, well, hang on. I can look and say that some of what’s been done, and this is clarified in the story, you remember, they say that they don’t have the right tech to do this properly and that they see some horrors that are born, you know, some of these first generation, it goes horribly wrong.

[01:05:21] Bruce Fenton: So again, if you were just gonna make up this like sweet story, I don’t think you’d put that in there because that they’re like, you know, they see these ones that die, they’re born, they’re completely messed up, they die. Um, and that they, you know, carry on experimenting saying they’re basically doing it from kind of the first aid kits on the, on the scape crafts, right?

[01:05:38] Bruce Fenton: So although they have this great knowledge, they don’t have everything they would’ve wanted. And so if you look at humans today, there are areas in the genome which do amazing things in terms of our brain and like, you know, all these higher abilities. But they’re linked to really severe problems, particularly like a reproductive system and all these things that, stuff that you wouldn’t think would be there cuz evolution would never favor it cuz it’s like horrible stuff.

[01:06:01] Bruce Fenton: Stuff that’s stopping you from getting like the propensity for miscarriages. It’s in, in human females, for example, right? You don’t see in the other primates, you don’t see this scale of, of problems.

[01:06:12] Alex Tsakiris: Elaborate on that a little bit, Bruce.

[01:06:14] Alex Tsakiris: Because it’s a point that once you bring it up, once you make it clear, people go, that is strange.

[01:06:20] Bruce Fenton: Right. Yeah. Because if you look at, if you compare humans to the other primates, not only do we have an extraordinarily difficult and painful birth compared to them, but we have massive problems in actually getting pregnant.

[01:06:33] Bruce Fenton: First of all, uh, osteo hidden ovulation as well, which is kind of weird. Um, and then on top of that, the rate of spontaneous abortion very early on, particularly in pregnancy, is enormous compared to any other primates. And then the number of genetic errors and stuff that can happen and the, you know, the different problems that you see in the, in the maturation of infants and in the birth process, again, all, all of that is wildly different.

[01:06:58] Bruce Fenton: And you have millions of women who’ve been through the loss of say, you know, a chart early on, you know, particularly in pregnancy and being like, what did I do wrong? God, why did it happen to me? You know, if you start to look at these anomalies, do you realize that, oh, no, no. It’s, it’s a wonder that we can have children.

[01:07:13] Bruce Fenton: It’s a wonder that any of them are making it. Uh, and these genetic errors, they can’t self-correct by selection because they’re linked to genetic changes. They’re giving us all of these other abilities. So you can see this. It’s frozen. They’re frozen in nature, can’t fix it. So if, if nature can’t fix it, what does that leave?

[01:07:34] Bruce Fenton: That only leaves. Us, you know, unnatural forces. If you want, you know, technologies to then look and say, well, that were done with tech. Somebody has, has done that badly. Can we one day learn how to fix that so they, you know, we’re not trying to change you into us, into a cyborg or, or you know, any of that really far out stuff.

[01:07:55] Bruce Fenton: But I definitely support the idea that we can now look and say some of these things that gave us the big brain are doing some horrible stuff to children and things, right? Ethically, I fully support fixing those problems. Because I can, I believe that they have been done by biotech. So biotech to fix them feels appropriate.

[01:08:18] Bruce Fenton: So that’s my, my changed view on using, you know, DNA modification technologies. Is that where we find evidence that this is fixed in problems caused by somebody that surely we as a species have a right to try to fix those problems, especially if they’re not coming back to do it or whatever. So there there are other errors like that.

[01:08:37] Bruce Fenton: There’s a book, actually very quickly before we got that off that topic. There’s a, a book called Human Errors, um, which is, it was kind of written as a response to creationism and the idea that we are made by a perfect God. Cause he points out a lot of these problems. And if you read it from the perspective of an intervention, you start to realize some of these problems.

[01:08:56] Bruce Fenton: Like I said, they make no sense in terms of natural selection. That why, why would they have ever arisen, you know, they’re so unbeneficial to the organism that they should have been swept away at the beginning in the first generation. But it’s that association with other things that we have the odd things like our complex brain that, that, you know, again, yeah, it really, you start to realize that yeah, there’s, there’s some real strange stuff there.

[01:09:22] Bruce Fenton: Not just in an upgrade. Conversely, it’s in our problems where you see some of the strangest stuff that, that differentiates us from other primates and in, in many cases all mammals, right? So you gotta say, well that’s hard, isn’t it? It’s hard that we’ve got all these problems that no other organism on the planet ended up with.

[01:09:40] Alex Tsakiris: , so Bruce, what, based on your research, and again you are kind of reading and pulling in stuff, so broadly, what is your best guess, your hunch in terms of where this is going? I’d love to think , like you’re saying that ethical standards and reason and caution would be applied, but we know at best it’s gonna be a mixed case based on the cutting edge you see right now.

[01:10:06] Alex Tsakiris: Where do you think it’s going in the next five, 10 years in terms of the direct extension of Exogenesis hybrid humans, where we already see that it’s happened and now we’re reaching that level of technology, at least with the first aid kit, we probably already have the first aid kit. Where do you see it going?

[01:10:24] Bruce Fenton: Yeah, I, I think in terms of, um, the genetics, cause we live in a imperfect world and we live in a, I’d say a time which is, you know, quite volatile. You know, got all sorts of powerful interests that are shaping society in negative ways. There is pushback more than ever on that. So a lot of it’s gonna come down to what’s the prevailing shaping force in our world because, you know, if it ends up that we have, you know, a fairly benevolent structure emerges that we say enough enough.

[01:10:55] Bruce Fenton: Sick of having, um, these kind of, you know, offshore banker, billionaire types, meddling and paying for banker wars and, you know, and shaping society to be this weird technocracy of, you know, genetic engineered human 2.0 with these cybernetic. And, you know, if it really goes that way, then yeah, all horrors Pandora’s box will be opened.

[01:11:15] Bruce Fenton: And it’s just a flow of horror would come out of there, you know, using everything from nanotech to the different kinds of biotech to, you know, gene splicing stuff. And I just, in that model, then I just see us careering towards destruction. I just, and there’s so many ways we can do that now. You know, I say with nanotech, biotech, nucl, you know, there’s plenty of ways now we’re at that point where we, I think someone said, and it’s almost as though we don’t want you to commit suicide.

[01:11:43] Bruce Fenton: We wanna make sure it works. So we’ve developed like a dozen ways to, to, to kill ourselves now so that we just put ’em all out at once and think, you know, it’s like, that doesn’t get me got that wheel, or that or that, you know, so we’re at that cusp where if we really go that way, it’s hard to see how we survive as a species.

[01:11:59] Bruce Fenton: I mean, before we, what’s say 2045, uh, all men will be functionally sterile as, as it stands, that’s the projection by the leading experts is that all the plastics, toxins, everything that we’re heading towards, cataclysmic events, even just on that alone, right? Just on our sterility, you know, let alone forget all the other stuff.

[01:12:17] Bruce Fenton: So we have so many of these problems. If we carry on down that path, Extinction is just, is is beckoning. It’s just very clearly backing. So on the other side of it though, if we do manage to change that control structure and we throw off the kind of really negative selfish influences of a small click, I’d say probably about a couple of thousand people, if you look at it, the, the billionaire and a hundred millionaire kind of class, that within that, I’m not saying an essay all bad guys, right?

[01:12:45] Bruce Fenton: But within that sort of 2000 odd people with that immense wealth that they, they, if that was to shift to a more benevolent system, you know, if that even amongst them, if that prevailed, you know, I’m sure there’s some kind of differences of opinions, right? So if we move towards a, a structure where we are benevolent and we wanna use these technologies genuinely for the good, not just to create some kind of, I dunno, hellscape, then I could see us actually, you know Yeah.

[01:13:13] Bruce Fenton: Fixing genetic areas, using, uh, nanotech to provide materials for the third world and, you know, new, new energy systems for the world. So I I d it’s that thing. It’s really hard to call cause we’re, I’d say right now we’re on that, you know, right on that edge on the precipice where it, Eva becomes amazing, you know, the, the space, age, future, but not in the, where we all become robots, but space, age kind of future, where it unfolds that we all sort of share on a greater journey, I guess.

[01:13:40] Bruce Fenton: Got that looking inwards and outwards exploring space and inner space together forever. Um, or yeah, it’s just. So awful that you, I think we’ll be glad to go extinct. You know that, almost like that where you, you wouldn’t wanna live in that world that those interests are shaping cuz it would be so, so awful.

[01:13:58] Bruce Fenton: You know, that I don’t know. That’s, that’s kind of where I’m at. I think though that, you know, I have to be positive on it. I say I think we will, you know, just scrape through by the seat of our pants, um, realizing how bad it can get, you know, that it’s taking us, getting right to the wire of starting to realize that, that there are interests who would happily drag us into a nuclear war, for example, right.

[01:14:19] Bruce Fenton: That they would’ve no qualms if that they felt was in their best interest, would have no qualms seeing most of the world irradiated. Right. Uh, or pulling out a, a virus and just wiping out a particular group or something. But, you know, those are the kind of mindsets that you’re dealing with. So I think they’re starting to see that very much on the global stage.

[01:14:41] Bruce Fenton: More people are realizing that this isn’t something where you can just be like, looked down and I’m just going on with my life. You know, I don’t, you know, I let these other interests to what they, we can’t anymore. I think we’ve realized that now they, they’re wielding such dangerous, you know, powers, um, that everyone is going to have to, you know, wake up.

[01:14:59] Bruce Fenton: Help put their feet on the brake and say that, you know, this is not the direction for humanity and this kind of information that we’re getting out of out Ringer and other, I think other things that are happening, you know, I think a part of the breaking system of our culture, um, not this alone. I’m sure there’s a lot of other interesting projects, things happening, but I do think that, you know, these projects are emerging at this time to make us reevaluate our place in time, space, consciousness.

[01:15:28] Bruce Fenton: You know, who we are, where we’re going. Is there a point to life? You know, did someone else out there with intelligence have a point for us? For example, you know, that they actually had an, uh, you know, some idea of where we might want to go and have left us some kind of clues about what can help a civilization survive for hundreds of thousands of years.

[01:15:45] Bruce Fenton: You know, if they’ve managed it, then it’s manageable for a start. It should give us a glimmer of hope. Um, cuz it’s in the Seti field. You know, you know this. There’s often that question, well, where is everybody? If everybody’s extinct and they’ve all died out, then what hope is there for us? Well, if it turns out there are many civilizations that.

[01:16:03] Bruce Fenton: Become technological, but then have survived on for hundreds of thousands of years. Well then they have found their way through the great filter. And so if they can, then so can we. So I think a lot of these things are kind of hopeful in themselves that multiple civilized did this, oh, maybe that we can do this.

[01:16:18] Bruce Fenton: you know, even if we have to ask them for a couple of tips here and there, um, which, you know, we can be humble enough to do that, whether those are aliens or spirit beings or ancestor, you know, whatever works for us that maybe we do something that need to reach out to those metaphysical realms and say, I.

[01:16:33] Bruce Fenton: GHI clues, you know, any help there. Um, and in some cases I think it can be helpful. And this is one of those cases, um, our history’s full of them though all, all the tribes and people would say in it, they were guided that they asked the spirits for help. The spirits told them where the buffalo were or the water was, and you know that.

[01:16:49] Bruce Fenton: So it’s not necessarily just about aliens coming and, you know, cosmic daddy cleaning up our mess. I don’t, I don’t think that’s a solution either. I think that, you know, but asking for little tips here and there from those realms and from our intuition, yes. Looking for a cosmic savior. No, um, I don’t think that’s a good idea.

[01:17:06] Bruce Fenton: Or being dependent on some other intelligence because, you know, if they give us all their technologies or something like that, then you are just a subsidiary, right. Because, you know, you no longer in control of your destiny. So I, I think we should be careful as well, the idea that, you know, aliens will come and they’ll give us zero point technologies and blah, blah.

[01:17:22] Bruce Fenton: Well, they’ll be maintaining them. You know, we don’t know how. You’ll be totally dependent. You’ll just a subsidiary. So I also think we have to be a bit wary on going down that road of the alien savior.

[01:17:34] Alex Tsakiris: Uh, yeah, it’s interesting and I think that’s a natural segue into this third category topic that is central to your thesis as spelled out in Exogenesis.

[01:17:45] Alex Tsakiris: And that’s the bombardment. And I would relate it back to something you said. that I would kind of, I think, take issue with a little bit. I, I think we should resist this idea of looking towards, we always wanna say the billionaires or the elite or something like that. I, I think what the story tells us is that it’s a more fundamentally spiritual kind of issue.

[01:18:06] Alex Tsakiris: And I think we see that playing out more and more people see it. You know, the United States Super Bowl is a huge event around the world and billions of people watch it. And it’s, for the last several years, it’s been completely satanic and it was again this year. And it’s just overtly satanic. And if you sit around with a bunch of people like I did, who are not red pilled, there’s this kind of quiet, kind of like, they’re stunned into silence.

[01:18:29] Alex Tsakiris: Like, what the hell did I just see that is so incredibly overtly satanic. And I think that’s what’s at, at at play here. That’s how it’s playing out. And what’s interesting to me about Exogenesis and what you’ve, again, pulled from Valerie Burrow, but then taken to this next level in terms of falsification and scientific validation of it, is there are other agendas which, if we were going to characterize them on this moral scale, we would say are dark, uh, harmful, malevolent agendas.

[01:19:11] Alex Tsakiris: So what do you, where do you, where do you see that? Going in the future in terms of, uh, your work and new information that you can pull in that would help us better understand how we reach that point too, because that’s a very scary point in this story. And you talk about the, the one thing that never really kind of totally adds up there is you talk about sliding through the, by the skin of the pants.

[01:19:39] Alex Tsakiris: It’s like, no, they almost destroyed the planet. You know? So it’s like, that’s not , that’s not generally how I would see, uh, policing done or, you know, the United Nations, galactic United Nations thing doing mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Hey, it might destroy the planet and it might not. It’s like when they blow off the nuclear bomb, hey, it might totally burn up the atmosphere.

[01:20:00] Alex Tsakiris: Let’s see. . Mm-hmm. ,

[01:20:01] Bruce Fenton: what, what do you think? Yeah, no, I mean, I think there’s a couple things. I mean, obviously in the book when she talks about this other group that, you know, they, they essentially consider themselves Yeah, like a cosmic police force. But they also, um, it’s explained really that they consider themselves as being almost like perfect, do what they want.

[01:20:20] Bruce Fenton: You know, we know best we do what we want to do. Um, you know, and we can, we can destroy a planet, we can throw a planetoid down at it and just crack it bits. And so, so in a way, they are what we would probably think of in terms of d and D type stuff, you know, chaotic, neutral or something, you know, because cuz although though that group is considered itself more aligned with this peaceful.

[01:20:42] Bruce Fenton: Alliance. Like they obviously don’t have the same mindset. You know, they’re not against the idea that when they encounter this other, you know, malevolent force to use, you know, what we would consider, you know, like absolutely horrendous, uh, levels of, you know, uh, warfare to actually know maybe to go and destroy some of the opponent’s planets and just wipe them out or something, you know?

[01:21:04] Bruce Fenton: So that definitely is more in the realms of chaotic, neutral than, you know, the, the, the good guy benevolent kind of field that we normally have with stories of say like, you know, pladis and beings from, um, you know, all these various stars that come up in these stories. You know, we get all these stories and they’re all good guys, basically like, you know, cosmic angels or, or something, right?

[01:21:25] Bruce Fenton: So, you know, these others that turn up to enforce this agreement, they definitely don’t sound like that. And, and they’re quite willing to do this. Um, so that I find is quite interesting the way that, you know, it shows a more complex story of alignments that, you know, that yeah, that one lot would come along kind of peacefully, not even on their ship, and the other lot would consider cracking the planet in half if they have to, you know?

[01:21:49] Bruce Fenton: So, um, that’s kind of, yeah, it’s kind of makes you think, you know, and also you should give some concern, you know, like say, you know, if these beings are still out there and if, you know, for some reason it got to a point where a group like that just thought enough’s enough, you know, bring down the comment, you know, uh, , I mean obviously that should give some.

[01:22:11] Bruce Fenton: Pause for thought that, you know, there may not be an absolute, um, tolerance level for behaviors on our planet, and particularly if we are heading towards alignment with the opposing force, you know, that, that there might be a group that would stand back and say, you’ve gotta give them free will. And the other thing says, Nope, we’ve just gotta blow the planet up.

[01:22:31] Bruce Fenton: Right. So that, I think is a hard one for people to probably get their head round as well, that that, you know, it’s not as clear cut as just the good and bad and, you know, good holds off and lets you have free will and bad’s attacking you. That you know, that there’s o other influences that may think that they’re being very good.

[01:22:46] Bruce Fenton: But we would see that as, you know, extraordinarily violent, aggressive kind of enforcement behavior. Um, and on top of that, I mean, look, you know, if we, if we accept the premise, and again, I can’t prove this part, but that there’s this other group, you know, so they’re described as being this kind of reptilian humanoid group.

[01:23:04] Bruce Fenton: And let’s suppose reptilians that puts people off straight away. It’s so knee-jerk one, because we’ve, everyone’s been 12 years New Years. It’s the craziest conspiracy theory out there, you know, reptilians live on the earth or that are infiltrating our governments. And, you know, that is it, it’s kind of funny.

[01:23:21] Bruce Fenton: It’s kind of pushed just the most crazy. And yet in many ways, it, they would be the most reasonable sounding aliens because we know this planet had soan, we know that he had dinosaurs and stuff. If, if any other kind of intelligent humanoid evolved here, it’s very reasonable to think of it being a reptilian humanoid.

[01:23:39] Bruce Fenton: So I would say that’s kind of an ironic thing of the, you know, the, the form that should be the most believable is the most rejected and laughed at, you know, and there’s even been, you know, academics, you’ve written about, you know, the solarian hypothesis, the idea there may have been an advanced civilization in those times, you know, going back millions of years ago.

[01:23:57] Bruce Fenton: And that we just don’t see it in the record cause it’s so long ago. But that we could have had, uh, you know, dinosaur or people that flew to the moon. So these, these aren’t actually as crazy as people are told. Right? And then on top of that, if they have remained here hidden or in a base on the moon or whatever, and do continue to influence us, and that’s kind of insinuated in, in the materials that they’re not all gone.

[01:24:22] Bruce Fenton: That although there’s this bombardment that there’s some of them remain. And if that is the case, and obviously there’s mythology around the world from all sorts of cultures telling us that there are these reptilians and Christians were talking about demons as being reptilian looking, you know, again, it’s a familiar framework.

[01:24:37] Bruce Fenton: So it’s kind of funny that we have that dichotomy of, of rejection because they were everywhere in our law, in our mythology. And then, you know, if they are influencing our systems, perhaps, you know, government, whatever, military. And so, you know, if we were to choose alignment with them, what is the consequences of that?

[01:24:56] Bruce Fenton: So if you say that we have these openly satanic looking practices and a culture that in many ways seems to get pushed towards that through our mainstream media, you know, that you’re being shaped to a certain mindset. So, If, if that is legitimately part of the story, you know, is there a point where you are considered to be so like them as that it’s time to bring down the comment and, and, and, and again, that’s, that’s another conundrum I think that we have to face is that if it’s kind of like a great choice and that is rather than a war in the way that we think of it, it being that, you know, you are given the choice and that there’s other intelligences that are standing back and kind of manipulating a bit, but are watching, you know, so which way are you gonna go?

[01:25:38] Bruce Fenton: You gonna go into alignment with this, you know, higher kind of benevolent group or this more malevolent group and the in the middle, these other ones just waiting with the comment just to, you know, it, it catches up quite the uh, quite the different vision of, of these kind of cosmic stories, you know, than we are usually.

[01:25:56] Bruce Fenton: Being projected from, whether from sci-fi or whether from contact cases. You know, I think it’s very different. Um, and more believable. Again, I think it’s more cause it is the nuance and complexity of this kind of backstory that sounds more like real living beings and the kind of things that they might be pondering instead of, you know, I guess poorly painted caricature of human aliens, you know, which often we, we find in science fiction.

[01:26:21] Bruce Fenton: Uh, so it’s not a simple story. It’s not a simple story. Also, I think the other thing I was just quickly touch on that as well is that we’re told that these other beings, these reptilians, that they have a kind of a religious system and that they believe in another lot of beings, these sort of interdimensional Draco beings who they’re kind of scared of and that they’ve had to the past give offerings to and feed beings to because those feed on some kind of energy of consciousness and they just say, I’m like, Absolute nightmare.

[01:26:49] Bruce Fenton: You know, a total nightmare. The most horrendous, horrendous, conceivable entities imaginable, right? Because they literally feed consciousness somehow. I mean, that if those are real, I mean, those would be the archetype of the devil, right? This idea that there’s some being that takes and feeds on souls, right?

[01:27:08] Bruce Fenton: That needs all these souls. And, and that’s kind of, again, just a really should make. Maybe. I find that one really, um, you know, the most horrendous scenario, the idea that you’ve been swallowed down into the, this, this endless kind of pit of consciousness within this drago hoard. They say you’re not, it’s like not being quite dead, but you are somehow, you know, your, your essence being digested into this shared consciousness of the Draco hoard or something.

[01:27:35] Bruce Fenton: It just sounds just so horrendous and that the end, there’s supposedly been wars fought in the past to push back these Draco and the beings they’ve created because. They were just waging this ceaseless conquest across the, the cosmos. And that, that’s why there’s this alliance in the first place that’s doing all this stuff.

[01:27:52] Bruce Fenton: It’s kind of come out of collaboration of various worlds who are like, my God, you know, the hoards coming, you know, there must be allies out there. You know, that. So it, it does seem like there’s this, just this, I mean, I know it’s wild. I mean, it’s wild stuff and that’s why it’s, you know, I, I don’t tend to put straight out there because it is wild.

[01:28:10] Alex Tsakiris: On one hand I find it wild. On the other hand, I find it strangely, uh, reverberating with so many things we’ve heard. I mean, it’s just very gnostic. It’s like right out of the nasic kind of thing, right. But it is also out of our, our lore and accounts that people have passed on for hundreds and hundreds of years.

[01:28:28] Alex Tsakiris: Recorded history and the eating of souls and the, you know, that whole thing, you know? So strange. I’ll tell you what this has been.

[01:28:37] Bruce Fenton: I’m sorry. Sorry. I, if you read Graham Hancock’s book, um, you know, His fancy book about the Nander Falls and stuff. And in there he, he said, you know, in Ayahuasca vision, he was contacted by this blue lady and you know, she’s all this stuff.

[01:28:50] Bruce Fenton: And she was telling him all this stuff. And it’s got these reptilian dr kind of beings that are eating the souls of the ancient hoons. And it flies in. It is, it’s getting people to sacrifice humans so they can feed on the souls. And this was a lot, you know, came out during a visionary experience with ayahuasca.

[01:29:06] Bruce Fenton: I mean, so again, it’s, I was fun. That’s kind of, you know, just amazing how things keep bubbling up, you know?

[01:29:11] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. I mean, the whole place he takes that is so interesting. I always thought too, so you got Montezuma on one side is playing that game, and then you got the conquistadors who are playing the same game for a different, you know.

[01:29:21] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. You, we can look at it differently, but you could also look at it as well, they’re kind of playing the same game of, , you know, decimating all these souls. Mm-hmm. . So this has been fantastic. Kind of much more than I would’ve even hoped for. I guess there’s one other thing we should cover, and that’s, in what ways is Valerie’s material a bridge too far for you in terms of looking at it and going, okay, love her, love all the people, but I think it’s a little too out there imaginal.

[01:29:54] Alex Tsakiris: It’s just, i i in the way, and I don’t wanna kind of put it down. Mm-hmm. , I wanna reign it back into what we’re talking about. It’s part of the experience, it’s part of the phenomenon that when you. When you listen to the whispers of the spirits, you, you don’t sit there and, you know, take it all down, literally.

[01:30:14] Alex Tsakiris: So any thoughts on

[01:30:16] Bruce Fenton: that? Yeah, sure. I mean, again, I’d back a bit to the, you know, that we’ve got many people involved in the backstory, and if you’ve got 40 odd people involved, you know, there’s definitely room there for either imaginal or, you know, I don’t wanna call dishonest, but you know, there’s room for someone to make something up.

[01:30:34] Bruce Fenton: There’s definitely a space for, you know, imaginal stuff. So, you know, obviously I’ve, I’ve tried to focus my efforts on validating what can be validated and then recognizing that a lot of the rest of that could be true and maybe one day find a way to prove it. But it could be true. I can’t argue that it’s true with somebody.

[01:30:55] Bruce Fenton: So I, I think the reader has to then, in their own mind, make that decision of, you know, what of that just seems too extraordinary or too unlikely, you know? Cause obviously there’s bits, like you said, that feel a bit unlike or don’t mesh well.

[01:31:08] Alex Tsakiris: Extinction of the dinosaurs way off, you know, so if we’re gonna look at the way the technology we have, and we’re gonna put some, , weight behind it as you do, and saying, you know, Hey, let’s look at stable genome, and they change, and the, then don’t, we also have to take that same science and go, well, we can point at that and say, well, that’s clearly off, so what’s going on there?

[01:31:29] Bruce Fenton: Yeah, sure. I mean, there’s some backstory about, you know, yeah, in the dinosaurs now whales are involved and you know that they represent. Other beings here and you know, stuff like that where I would be like, for me, you know? Yeah. That stuff feels more like, , into the realm of New Age story than something that, you know, I’m willing to kind of say that I feel that’s real.

[01:31:50] Bruce Fenton: You know, I, I think what I. Felt was real is is specifically this story of the craft, the visitation, the genetic engineering, uh, the bombard, you know, this what call as say the core story. There’s a lot of additional things that talked about there outside of that story. , and about the cosmos and about beatings and where I would put that definitely in the bucket of that could well be just, you know, imaginal or from experiences people have had in their own spiritual life, meditation, whatever, you know, and they, they’ve maybe blended some of that in, , cuz they believe it already going into the story.

[01:32:23] Bruce Fenton: Cuz a lot of these people are in it are mediums, you know, they’re psychic mediums, healers, spiritual people who are intuitive people. So it makes some sense that they’re the ones remembering past lives or having experiences with this touring artifact that she’s got. Because, you know, those exact sort of people you think would pick up on information, right?

[01:32:40] Bruce Fenton: So it’s a kind of catch 22. The people say, oh, if only Valerie had been a physicist, but if she’d been a physicist, could she have picked up on the, would the artifact have had any effect on her? Maybe not. Maybe you have to be psychically aware to have contact, right? So there’s a kind of catch 22, but then a lot of those people, of course, are in that world of, you know, holistic healing and, and learning about philosophical ideas and new age concepts.

[01:33:04] Bruce Fenton: So I don’t think we can, you know, say that they’re not gonna have any, I. From other existing beliefs, maybe from other channeling or something they’ve heard. And I, I think that creeps its way in there in places that they definitely, I think there’s some coloring of the data by people’s own beliefs. I mean, for example, I mean Valerie believed that as, you know, she, she argued that the mold divide was the ship material.

[01:33:30] Bruce Fenton: So again, people say that you cherry pig, you’re just trying to prove her, right? Well, no, actually she was quite upset with me for saying that it was the sterlite was the mesh with the craft debris cuz she felt it was the mold divide. But mold I is millions of years old. Right. So like you can’t mesh it like said with the, so these other things, they don’t mesh with science.

[01:33:50] Bruce Fenton: I couldn’t argue to somebody that Moabite was the ship debris because then I’d have to explain why Ola dating shows it as millions of years old.

[01:33:58] Alex Tsakiris: But she has a lot of experiences with the green glass as she calls it, that, you know, so how, how are you processing that in terms of, cuz now we’re having to draw some distinctions there that are kind of uncomfortable for how we process the whole thing.

[01:34:16] Alex Tsakiris: How, how do you deal with that?

[01:34:19] Bruce Fenton: Yeah, I mean, I, I, you know, I, it’s a funny one because at the same time, like my wife, you know, Daniela, she, she held a piece of Maite and she found herself what seemed to be coming from that ship in an escape pod coming towards her and seeing the burning ship. So why would that happen with Maite if Maite is just an unconnected material that has nothing to do with this story and yet, and so many people report holding MoVI and having space related and cosmic experiences or profound psych experiences.

[01:34:48] Bruce Fenton: Right. Um, so there is some conundrum there. Uh, I, I tend to feel that what we are looking at is probably that all tech types are in some way related to off world intelligence. Cuz there’s only like four STR fields. It’s a really rare stuff. Like, so I’m starting to look more the idea. I think they’re all to do with interstellar objects and that those objects may or may not be technological.

[01:35:14] Bruce Fenton: Um, but that, I think that they all have a, you know, probably are technological and that they, all of them have an extraordinary backstory. So how do I know that MoVI isn’t from an earlier craft that blew up here and with an AI intelligence on it and all the rest of it. And it isn’t in some way that when you hold it, you’re not connecting to another consciousness that is part of that collective.

[01:35:35] Bruce Fenton: Right? And so it’s showing you parts of these stories that it also is tapped into. I don’t know. I mean, you st I can’t write that off because cuz people are having experiences with it. They hold it and they have these kind of related. Experiences. Now, I don’t know so much with Oly. I don’t, I haven’t unhear about as much that it’s much more common with Maite than anyone saying, I held a piece of Oly and I saw, you know, and the Greenstone of course, you know, there’s lots of legends of the Greenstone, um, the Emerald tablets, the green Cup of the Grail, and you know, all on, there’s a lot of legends to do with greenstone and visionary experiences and recorded information.

[01:36:10] Bruce Fenton: And so I don’t feel I can just dismiss it. I just, I can’t, I don’t believe it’s part of that craft. I don’t believe the science fits it. So unless there’s something wrong with our understanding of the dating, something to do with this craft going through time, space or something, you know, do you know what I mean?

[01:36:25] Bruce Fenton: I, it would be outside of the known science reference frame that we have. Um, but I don’t absolutely dismiss it either. I just said I can’t argue that because I don’t see the support for it. The same with, you know, some of the other aspects in that, in that material in the book or again, you know, I couldn’t absolutely, well, look, the date, for example, what she was given was that it was somewhere towards 900,000 years ago.

[01:36:50] Bruce Fenton: Right. But every bit of evidence I see is for around 788,000 years ago. I think that centers in on the best dating of the tech type. Right. So set. That’s my. Focal date. Well, that’s a hundred and thousand, you know, odd years off from where she feels it should be. So again, if someone says you’re cherry picking to fit someone’s story, well that’s quite a big chasm between what she was quite convinced of and what I’m convinced of.

[01:37:18] Bruce Fenton: So 900,000 years ago, , you know, it’s quite different to 788,000 years ago, Oly. You know what I mean? So, so there are, there are these kind of schisms there in the data versus the story and versus her beliefs about the story. Right? Um, so that’s to totally make sense of, I I have to, I’ve come to the thinking that if someone wants to see it as that, or maybe her story was wrong, maybe was, um, influenced by people’s thinking or whatever it is, but if it’s led someone to what appears to be objective evidence of a contact event, even if it’s a different contact event, right?

[01:37:58] Bruce Fenton: Maybe the other one was made up, but then you find a real one whilst looking for a made up one. Right. To me, that would still be an amazing result. You know what I mean? It’s like, well, hang on, I’m still finding that there’s is cluster of all the same kind of events that have been described, but they’re just a different time and not quite the way that those sources believed that they happened.

[01:38:19] Bruce Fenton: So, if it had been that there just wasn’t, you know, there wasn’t any support, it’s a different thing, isn’t it? But if you then find that, you know, they’re saying there was this silica ship blew up. You find silica debris that rained from orbit, you know, roughly 788,000 years ago, that you are told that there’s this asteroid bombardment.

[01:38:35] Bruce Fenton: Turns out multiple asteroids hit Irv around between, uh, 777 90,000 years ago. They believe all at the same time. So again, it does seem this multi-directional cosmic bombardment is also real. Uh, and then on top of that, that there’s gene engineering, uh, at the same time. And now we know that, uh, the early archaic lineage of the first for Denis and us is, is basically diverging around 800,000 years ago.

[01:39:01] Bruce Fenton: So again, so if you are like free for free on the events that they’re talking about, even if they’re at a different time, and even if the material they talked about is a bit different, that to me doesn’t invalidate it. You someone else might say, well, that’s a different story then, is it, or something. Well, I can’t tell you for sure, but I can say that it’s, it’s weird that all the events are there now.

[01:39:23] Bruce Fenton: It could be, there are understanding of dating, um, you know, geological dating is off. It could be that these intelligences for some reason obscured the date and that, you know, why they do that. Maybe the same reasons that, like we said earlier, that a lot of people have had information given to them. That is partly false.

[01:39:39] Bruce Fenton: Now we don’t know why that is. We don’t know why an intelligence would give someone 80% real stuff, but say we don’t think we should tell ’em that other bit. Because we do that stuff. That’s like how misinformation, disinformation and propaganda and stuff that works. Right? Often, you know, there’s a lot of information that’s true.

[01:39:56] Bruce Fenton: And then you throw in something else. So they may well have their own agendas as intelligent beings and they may prefer it that way. Maybe they don’t wanna make it too easy for you, right? And just say, oh, it’s on a platter. Maybe you’re supposed to do some work and find out some of this and, and show that it’s not quite the way that they’ve been told for some lesson that we need.

[01:40:16] Bruce Fenton: Maybe that not to trust a hundred percent the things you’re told by intelligences. And again, and I say that’s the lesson I learned in my life, so it wouldn’t surprise me if on some other scale they also do that a bit on their bigger stories that you’re supposed to actually question and not just swallow it and say, well 900,000 years ago they came here in a Moabite ship and it’s that maybe you are meant to fact check them and that they might be pleased to see that you did that and say, oh, you know, they actually bothered to check instead of just swallowing it because we are higher beings.

[01:40:44] Bruce Fenton: You know that that’s not what we want from them. So that would be my kind of hypothesis is that you know, that perhaps, yeah, they don’t want us to do that and that it’s a mistake just to swallow it. That you are supposed to go through and critically analyze these stories and decide for yourself, a, what is supportable by evidence B, what is reasonable to suspect to be true?

[01:41:06] Bruce Fenton: And C, what appears to be just garbage

[01:41:09] Alex Tsakiris: woven. Yeah. That’s, that’s wonderfully, uh, nuanced and I think that’s where we have to continue to go is kind of more subtle. I mean, maybe it is the Phillip experiment all over again, I’m drawn to your, uh, core story because I think we have a lot of evidence of that from other Yeah. Uh, paranormal experiences that people have in readings, in dreams, in past life regression where mm-hmm. sometimes there is the trickster element of it, but also I, I think what you brought to the table with, , evolution as it relates to language, as it relates to processing information.

[01:41:45] Alex Tsakiris: I’m always think it’s extraordinary that the download experience is always the same story of I knew everything and then I returned to this form and I knew a thumbnail, and it would make sense to me that that’s what’s going on all the time, and we’re just not aware of it. So you’re channeling, channeling, channeling, and you think you’re channeling and up there they’re going.

[01:42:08] Alex Tsakiris: You got it wrong then I, I tried to tell you as clearly as possible, how did you get it that way? And you’re like, no, no, no, no, no. It’s a Shakespeare play. I saw it. I know the whole thing. You know what I mean? That, that to me just rings true because we see it in, in humans all the time, you know? And we see it.

[01:42:24] Alex Tsakiris: Also, I would just have one other piece because I heard this the other day and I think it’s so, so true. You know, it’s like we know this from personal experience in our family. You know, you get together with your family, your brothers and sisters. You go, remember that trip to the lake when we were seven years old and dad tipped over the canoe and the other kid goes, no, you tipped over the canoe.

[01:42:42] Alex Tsakiris: Dad wasn’t even on the canoe, he was on shore. And it’s like, what do you, you know, so we all understand that part of it. There’s so many things that are in play. Again, the nuanced mm-hmm. Thing is the only way to even try and get close to it.

[01:42:57] Bruce Fenton: Yeah, absolutely. Memories. And you know, we know memories can be wrong and none of us are perfect witnesses and none of us are perfectly receiving and passing on information.

[01:43:07] Bruce Fenton: So yeah, even if you had an accurate story given to you, you know it’s a good chance you’d pass on some parts wrong. You know, if it’s visionary, experiential, um, and pass life memories, you know, cause that’s a whole. Think in itself again, even if the memories are real, doesn’t mean that some of them are not shaped by you.

[01:43:23] Bruce Fenton: You know that they can be a real story that even in this lifetime, as you say, that you don’t remember, right? So if you did live a life a long time ago and you remembered stuff from it, there’s a good chance that that is not accurate, because we’re starting to understand that the nature of memory is that it reshapes and that it’s actually trying to provide you with the most useful version of the story, or the story that you know, or the one that makes the most sense.

[01:43:44] Bruce Fenton: Now, it’s not trying to give you the a hundred percent accurate recall that we, I think we, most people don’t realize that that’s not what memory’s about, really. It’s more about keeping you alive and going. So sometimes it edits something so that it’s in your advantage to remember it in a different way.

[01:43:58] Bruce Fenton: Then it’ll change it for you, right? So I, I don’t see why that couldn’t happen with. Extraordinary events, speech experiences, past life memories, and with past life memories. Again, I mean this, there’s a big knee-jerk rejection for that, but you know, if you go back to the work of, um, professor Ian Stevenson, you know, a lot of your listeners will be familiar with that.

[01:44:16] Bruce Fenton: Other people may not be, but. Now he got to a point where the evidence was so compelling that even like the Uber skeptics, even Carlson, you know, all the, you know, the paranormal type claims.

[01:44:26] Bruce Fenton: The ones that are worth looking at, you know, that was in his list of like three of them, and one of them was the reincarnation worker of Ian Stevenson, because it is so solid. The guy has just gone through, you know, hundreds and hundreds of these cases of children with these memories and matching scars to where they, they say they were killed in the past life and tracking down families, the kids are convincing the families, you know, the, the work was done to such a high standard that, you know, all the skeptics were kinda like, well, yeah, you know, but let’s just ignore it, you know, rather than sort of debating and defeating him in some kind of eyes or combat.

[01:45:00] Bruce Fenton: It was more like swept under the rug because the reality was, it, it seemed extraordinary compelling that there is some kind of

[01:45:07] Bruce Fenton: passing on of information across generations that resembles reincarnation in some form. No, no one knows exactly what that form is or why it’s happening, but what he found is something like that is happening.

[01:45:21] Bruce Fenton: So if, if you take that on board and then we have 40 odd people, Who seem to have reincarnation memories. Now, if you accept the premise of reincarnation, then the other interesting thing about Valerie’s story is this is to my knowledge, the largest ever group reincarnation case in the, in the files of reincarnation studies.

[01:45:40] Bruce Fenton: The only other one like that, which I mentioned in my book, is the Cfar, the Reincarnation of the Cfar, which, which actually happened not far from me. About 30 miles away, there was a psychologist down in Bath and he started to have all these clients coming to him, and they were all remembering the same period, this life as CFAs, um, where they ended up, you know, being executed and, you know, the, the fall of their last Cfar stronghold and all this.

[01:46:05] Bruce Fenton: But they were all, and they were, the names of the people matched up. They had to find some guy that, you know, was a specialist archivist in the model. You know, this, this is not, so you could walk into a library and find people were checking in the archives, you know, obscure libraries and finding the names that these people came out with as real CFIs and her, you know, they were considered heretics and were burned.

[01:46:25] Bruce Fenton: I mean, this is wild stuff that people is poorly known and poorly appreciated for how compelling these cases are. , right. So, I mean, it’s easy to say, wow, you know, he starts saying about these people having reincarnation memories. Oh, you know, it’s absurd. Well, it is absurd if you just ignore the whole wealth of supporting evidence that reincarnation is a real thing.

[01:46:46] Bruce Fenton: That there is some aspect of us that either continues or picks up information from other people’s lives in the past. You know, I don’t know the absolute answer for what it is, why it is, but people are having verifiable information come to them as the experience of a memory from another life. So why not going all the way back to 788,000 years ago when they were early Harmons or, or whoever they were as aliens or whatever.

[01:47:11] Bruce Fenton: I don’t think we can put some sort of limit then on what can bubble up in, in consciousness if it’s been there from the whole time that we are just recurring, you know, energy never being destroyed, just coming back again and in different forms that something seems to have bubbled up in this case and that, you know, a whole group of people have ended up in Australia sort of connected, you know, in a web where they, for whatever reason have come back in that life to further this or complete this task and that now it’s helped it come out and it’s led to objective information.

[01:47:44] Bruce Fenton: So, you know, It’s so, it’s a funny one, isn’t that? Cause you know, you’ve put all the things in one case anyway, you know, the time slips, uh, you know, strange artifacts that can talk to people, uh, you know, mediums and, and, uh, you know, aliens talking ships time. You know, I, I dunno, it’s, it’s, I know it’s a lot for anyone to take, but individually, each one of these kinds of phenomena has other support, right?

[01:48:08] Bruce Fenton: It’s just we don’t normally see them cluster into one narrative where, you know, it’s like, I was thinking it’s a bit like, you know, a Hollywood guy, you know, you’ve given them this amazing budget and you’ve said, make me a sci-fi film. And he’s like, I’m just gonna throw everything in . What the hell? I’m gonna spend every penny.

[01:48:27] Bruce Fenton: You know, we’re gonna have all this stuff flying ships. I’m gonna have time traveling. And you’d be like, this guy’s gone crazy. Why is, why couldn’t you have simplified it made it more reasonable. You know, and that’s what it feels like. It feels like he’s got the whole special effects team on this. Cause I want everything.

[01:48:40] Bruce Fenton: I want asteroids coming down and alien ships that can talk. And, you know, and you’d, you’d be sitting there going, I think you’re going too far. You know, you need to cut back. And that’s why it starts to feel like, it’s like every phenomena has just clustered into one narrative and yet it appears to be mostly a true story.

[01:48:57] Bruce Fenton: And that is just the wildest, wildest kind of conclusion to come from something that just on the face of it, you would think was just really absurd. You know, if someone just told you, oh, by the way’s this story, it sound absurd until you look at it closer and be like, well actually there’s a lot of supporting elements to this.

[01:49:12] Bruce Fenton: And it’s, yeah. I mean, you obviously you can understand that you know, you for the same similar reasons that, you know, you’ve looked at it, you know that it’s got a lot of strange aspects. But then funnily enough, individually, all of these aspects do have support elsewhere. And the story at the core has material support.

[01:49:28] Bruce Fenton: And that, I don’t know of any other case kind of like that,

[01:49:33] Alex Tsakiris: Bruce, the idea that it could be the right story, the right true story at the right time is probably about the most encouraging thing, optimistic thing that I could possibly imagine, cuz it does make you think that maybe in this strange time that we’re in is the kernel of what could come and, and be better.

[01:49:55] Alex Tsakiris: And, uh, wow, what an awesome thing to mm-hmm. to just think about. We don’t have to buy into it, uh mm-hmm. . But anyways, what’s next? Where are you going with this?

[01:50:06] Bruce Fenton: Yeah, so I mean, I’ve obviously worked on this. I’m gonna do my best to get the whole, uh, updated kind of story out there, you know, and I’ve, I think I’ve done, I’ve put it backstory as well, and I’ll try and get all that out there in the subject, but, On the side of that, also tentatively at the beginning of, um, expanding the project so that there will be a more formal research arm to this, which will, which will have funding and will allow me to collaborate with experts who could be brought in and have funding to do research.

[01:50:41] Bruce Fenton: Um, probably under a, a university banner. So approach uni, not all your notes for like the sounds of this, but the as, as, as, as my collaborator has said, you know, they do like to hear, there’s funding though, so, so that we might, we might be able to get, um, a situation where, say we could have geneticists. Or material engineers, experts in their field who could come in and be asked to give their opinions on aspects of this and collaborate on writing papers.

[01:51:11] Bruce Fenton: But then conversely, on the other side, which, you know, I know you to create kind of engagement and media and, you know, ways to then get this to the public as well, because of course, like, you know, writing a paper on it is great and that is important in that side of it, but that isn’t really for the general public.

[01:51:30] Bruce Fenton: That’s a conversation to then spark a conversation in a scientific community, right? Which is their own kind of world. So on the separate side of that, we would hope that the media will engage with those papers because as you know, like we look at the one recently with Avi Loeb and um, the guy from Arrow, you know, they wrote a paper about just the basic constraints of what they might expect with the U F O topic.

[01:51:52] Bruce Fenton: And now you’ve got headlines saying Alien motherships in the solar system, they’re spewing out probes. So we we’re, we’re living in a kind of a funny moment, aren’t we? Where you could have something like it was a fairly TAed paper and yet the media have gone totally wild. So if they were to do the same with some research that we are doing, That could become really interesting, to be honest.

[01:52:11] Bruce Fenton: Do you know what I mean? If they were, if they’re willing to go all out on things like alien motherships spewing out probes on a tame paper, if we are actually to say, well, we’re doing a formal research program where we’re looking for genetic modification of humans, 780,000, and we’re, you know, it’s being done formally, I don’t think you’d even need to get the results through before some journalist thought, this is amazing.

[01:52:31] Alex Tsakiris: I suspect that what we see there is them really playing both sides in a very clever way, right? So, right. Put out the Avi Loeb story, get the minions to spin it this way, and now you have kind of plausible deniability.

[01:52:45] Alex Tsakiris: You can go back and go, well, look, he, he didn’t say anything. He, he doesn’t even believe that there’s mm-hmm. , that the, he doesn’t even believe that the tic-tac videos are real necessarily. He’s still on the fence about that. So now you have it both ways, but you can also, you know, do the conditioning that they’re doing.

[01:53:03] Alex Tsakiris: Mm-hmm. The slow disclosure conditioning and stuff. But y y that doesn’t take away from what you’re saying, cuz one of the things you brought out in this wonderful mm-hmm. Uh, uh, generous two hours that you gave us, is that the mission for you doesn’t change, which is, advance the science as far as you can, bring as many people on board, bring new people on board who may have a piece of the puzzle and don’t know that they do.

[01:53:28] Alex Tsakiris: So all that, it doesn’t, doesn’t change your job. You gotta get up every day and put the shoes on and go do that. So yeah, if they’re playing the game this way or that way, you can’t really worry about that too much.

[01:53:39] Bruce Fenton: So, I mean, I think there’s a, it’s a, it is just probably now just looking to expand to a different stage where, yeah, for me, a lot won’t change.

[01:53:47] Bruce Fenton: But, you know, if we can have an angle where, yeah, it’s engaging those people who, let’s say the, the media will find more difficult to ignore because, you know, it’s pretty easy to ignore me, you know, you know, some guy, you know, if, if at the same time we can bring in, you know, some of the top people in some of these fields and that they’re willing to comment on it, even if, just as an advisory role, you know, we’ve seen the way that, as I say, you know, some of these other stories have been blown up massively with far less than saying, Hey, look, general public, there’s a team involving respectable science stuff.

[01:54:18] Bruce Fenton: They’re looking to see if aliens have modified the human genome at this specific point in time. And also are looking at the possibility of, of one of those alien motherships that you heard in that other story having been here and blown up and pieces. You know, I, I think once they can see that it’s not just some guy that’s been on ancient aliens, right?

[01:54:35] Bruce Fenton: Where it’s really easy to go, ah, crank cookie, you know, um, and dismiss that, that, I think even just saying that there is a research team with a respect for umbrella. with scientists involved that um, that could disseminate into the media a lot easier. Right. And reach a lot of people who really would probably be quite compelled to the story, but they just, they never heard of the story, right?

[01:54:59] Bruce Fenton: So they don’t necessarily need the tech type analysis. They don’t need every genome known. Right. You know, because most people don’t function like that. They, they would look at that as a complete story and say, well, it’s kind of wild that there’s all these dates lining up. That fire was there, you know, this bing blew up.

[01:55:15] Bruce Fenton: Then the genetics changed. Then I think for the average person who hears that, they immediately think, well, at least on the fence. So thinking maybe that’s real, because it seems like it’s not just one thing, it’s multiple things and they don’t need, you know, humans aren’t, we’re not all like, you know, academic computing device type thing.

[01:55:33] Bruce Fenton: Cuz most people put that story together and just feel whether it’s reasonable to them or not. And I think that, you know that for a large proportion of humanity, if you were to hear that story and it was on the, the news, right, I can you come away with probably 50% of humanity pretty much accepting that that happened, right?

[01:55:50] Bruce Fenton: Just based on the evidence that exists now without doing any extra DNA analysis or any more materials analysis, they would look at that and say, as wild as the rest of that stuff is, it does seem like something came here from space and blew up. And the right at the moment when we start to evolve, that’s all super weird, you know, and we’re being.

[01:56:08] Bruce Fenton: At this moment, you know, alien motherships may have come here and reasonable people are saying it, and the interstellar objects are coming here, and now the government’s looking at UFOs. I mean, that’s definitely a fertile ground, isn’t it, that we are in now for the public to say, I’m willing to stretch my credulity on this and just listen, hear it out, and then come away thinking, geez, you know, I, I, I think this maybe really happened.

[01:56:31] Bruce Fenton: So I’m quite hopeful. I think that, yeah, we’ll see how it goes. And also, like, say early days, I am contacting some universities to see how that would work. You know, having a, researching under their umbrella, um, for the funding purposes and stuff. So, you know, obviously again, if someone out there listening, you know, they’re at a university and they like, you know, maybe like to sound that maybe would like to be involved again, that, that would be kind of cool too.

[01:56:52] Bruce Fenton: And I’m sure some of your listeners, you know, they might have things they could contribute to that or maybe in fields which, you know, they can advisory role or directly come on board and help, you know, a paid through a paper on that saying, you know, that, you know, yeah, there’s an angle here, I’d be happy to collaborate with you on.

[01:57:08] Bruce Fenton: And we could put out, you know, just a short paper just saying there’s the possibility there based on what we’re seeing of, you know, an anomaly that could have been engineered or of materials that have been used that make sense from a computing, you know, understanding that they ha So that’s the kind of thing I think Alex where it’s going is that, you know, there’s probably people out there sitting there thinking, yeah, I, I do that every day.

[01:57:26] Bruce Fenton: I do that work all the time. It’d be easy. I could spend a few hours just like giving you some tips of what to look for, um, you know, that kind of side of it. So hopefully that’s what we will start to see.

[01:57:36] Alex Tsakiris: That’s terrific. Anything else to, to mention as we wrap things up?

[01:57:42] Bruce Fenton: Um, well of course I suppose it’d be great if people would sign up to my ck I mean that’s, um, you know, obviously where I’m trying to put everything out there, the intention of that is that, you know, I think if it covers everything eventually there’s never an end to what I’m doing.

[01:57:55] Bruce Fenton: But, you know, I would like to probably take some of that material later, condense it and edit it into a book. So obviously it’d be nice if going forward, um, people sort of follow me and also support me if they can buy paid subs or buying the books or the existing book, you know, cuz um, obviously I put a lot of time into this stuff, you know, and it, it’s not a materially rewarding activity, um, particularly, you know, because it, it hasn’t got the traction of some of the U F O topics, you know, so, you know, you’re not seeing me on, on Fox and on CNN talking about alien motherships.

[01:58:28] Bruce Fenton: So, I mean, there’s, there’s not really that, so I, I super appreciate anyone who is willing to go to the sign up. Yeah, please. You know, do consider a paid subscription on there, like five pound a month. Um, and I will keep. , turn out the rest of this, uh, information as quick as I can. And obviously like you’ve seen something else is quite in depth, so, you know, like not a couple of hours at the desk.

[01:58:50] Bruce Fenton: You know, I have to kind of really put things back together in a way that I hope is explaining things well. Uh, and that will go, I think there’s certainly a few more weeks to get through the, even the core story, you know, but we’re just onto the starting of the genetics now. So, uh, that’s probably a few articles.

[01:59:08] Bruce Fenton: And then, like I said, we’ll deal with the other stuff by, uh, teaching the common ins. You know, there’s gonna be, so there’s quite a few topics yet to be done, so I hope people will follow along and yeah, join in, you know, lead comments and stuff and by all means, point me towards, you know, scientists or universities that they think are sympathetic or, uh, media journalists, anyone like that.

[01:59:27] Bruce Fenton: You know, all of this stuff. I, I think it’s important. We live in a time where, look, we’re right at the edges of what could be, you know, world war free and crazy stuff. You know, I think people take a gamble on the fact that maybe a store like this could help divert things in a positive way. That alone surely is worth people spending a few moments of their time on when they look at the world as it is now.

[01:59:47] Bruce Fenton: Just, just breaking down, right? That isn’t it worth giving this a chance just to see if it has some positive, you know, possibilities for us as a species.

[01:59:58] Alex Tsakiris: Fantastic. Bruce, thank you so much for the interview and for the work that you do.

[02:00:02] Bruce Fenton: Terrific man. Thank you. And thank you for sparing Alex. Appreciate it.

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