Jason Jorjani, Does AI = PSI? |589|

Dr. Jason Jorjani… UFOs and National sovereignty…  Mars disclosure… evil Prometheus…  will AI generate PSI phenomenon?


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[00:00:00] Jason Reza Jorjani: PSI phenomena are a property of consciousness and if you actually succeed in building an artificial general intelligence, they will be forced eventually to study, the same types of phenomena that parapsychologists have been studying for close to a century now.

[00:00:16] Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science and spirituality. I’m joined today by Dr. Jason Seriani. , Jason was here a couple months ago and gave us just, I thought a terrific interview and I know a lot of you enjoyed it as well.

[00:00:32] Alex Tsakiris: He’s back to talk about his book Closer Encounters. Jason, it’s great to have you back. Thanks for

[00:00:39] Jason Reza Jorjani: joining me. It’s an absolute pleasure to be here, Alex.

[00:00:43] Alex Tsakiris: , , if you’re a member of the last interview with Jason, , one of the things that he really spelled out and that he brings to the table, which is we’re just chatting about, is tremendous and unique.

[00:00:54] Alex Tsakiris: He’s not a lot of people who that are processing stuff at this intellectual level have this ability, but Jason, as he defines it, is a true philosopher, a real philosopher. So when he’s engaging in a topic like he is in closer encounters, UFOs, UAPs, contact with non-human intelligence, he’s engaging in all the different aspects of it.

[00:01:21] Alex Tsakiris: Political, social, technological, religious and spiritual and paranormal. And most importantly, and as he said, I thought so beautifully and importantly, last time, he’s doing it in a way that he is going to strive to make it internally consistent , within the framework of what he’s presenting, right?

[00:01:40] Alex Tsakiris: So I, I might not agree and you might not agree with all its conclusions, but you gotta respect that approach because almost everything we see in this area, even if there’s something you agree with, is siloed. You know, it’s like, oh, in my silo, here’s how things work. Well, don’t ask me about anything spiritual or religious.

[00:02:01] Alex Tsakiris: You know, don’t ask me about this. It’s just stay in my silo. So this, this approach is the only approach that can allow us to make any real. and it’s fantastic. And this is an important book that I really hope you pick up and, , and fully embrace. It’s, it’s another one that it’s not like super hard to read.

[00:02:22] Alex Tsakiris: It’s real readable, but man, is it dense? I mean, this is a lot of references to a lot of stuff in here, so congratulations, Jason. Great, great job. I’m so excited to talk

[00:02:33] Jason Reza Jorjani: to you about this. Thank you, Alex. Uh, yes, it is a very dense book. , I think it’s something like 400 pages or so, but it could easily have been a thousand pages.

[00:02:42] Jason Reza Jorjani: I have a very concise style of writing. , but yeah, it’s a kind of a, an encyclopedic work, uh, that covers not only the full range of the types of evidence in close encounters research, but also engages with, I think basically every single hypothesis that’s been forwarded with regard to the U f O phenomenon.

[00:03:04] Jason Reza Jorjani: Everything from the classic e t h, the extraterrestrial hypothesis to, , breakaway civilization, time travel, , the psychic projections hypothesis that young first forwarded and that others like John Keel picked up on, , all the way to the question of simulation theory. So it, it’s a very broad approach to the subject.

[00:03:27] Alex Tsakiris: it is. , let’s start in a slightly different direction cuz it’s where you start and I think it’s super interesting, you know, , let’s set the stage for this book. Again. It’s published a couple years ago, uh, right in the middle of this, I don’t know, the US government stumbling through this very fake and kind of phony orchestrated disclosure about UFOs.

[00:03:50] Alex Tsakiris: You’re right in the middle of that, and in the book you kind of use that disclosure as a fulcrum point, if you will, for kind of approaching the topic. And it’s really interesting you start in the introduction, the end of the conclusion, both with that, let’s talk about disclosure.

[00:04:07] Jason Reza Jorjani: Sure. So yeah, the book was published I believe two months after the punitive disclosure of June of 2021, uh, where we got this preliminary U A P assessment. And the first chapter of Closer encounters is a critique of the preliminary assessment and of the larger so-called disclosure project that’s underway.

[00:04:31] Jason Reza Jorjani: , Not to be confused with Steven Greer’s earlier disclosure project. , we, we can make a, a few remarks on that later on as well. But in any case, , what I, what I argue is that first of all, this claim that there hasn’t been any serious scientific research on UFOs to date is absurd. Uh, we know that Paul Hill at NASA was studying UFOs from the 1960s onward.

[00:05:02] Jason Reza Jorjani: , he had a manuscript which was left after his death and published in the nineties, which was a very detailed technical analysis of the behavior of UFOs and extrapolating from that certain, uh, characteristics of the engineering of these objects from the standpoint of course of a physicist and engineer.

[00:05:24] Jason Reza Jorjani: And then when you hear that, , I believe it’s Callahan at the f a a, uh, who testified that all the way back in, I think it was either the late eighties or early nineties, he was in, uh, closed meetings. , CIA Scientific at attaches discussing radar tapes from say, the Anchorage Alaska incident. It’s clear that all of this data that Callahan had confiscated from him by the CIA a was being taken to do a technical analysis.

[00:05:58] Jason Reza Jorjani: In fact, they said to him, we’ve never had 30 minutes of uninterrupted radar data to analyze. Well, this was decades ago, right? So how are you telling me that for the first time, now we’re gonna do good science on UFOs?

[00:06:13] Alex Tsakiris: Hold on. Cuz isn’t that really the point? And, and I guess I felt two ways about that introduction and that handling of the disclosure thing.

[00:06:20] Alex Tsakiris: Cuz on, on one hand it’s the big lie kind of thing, right? It’s like don’t tell a little lie because you’re gonna get caught, tell a big lie. Like, here’s disclosure for the first time, it’s never happened before, and you just go, Wayne, that’s just so over the top. Outrageous. So the other thing that gets me, and I’d love to hear you talk about that, is like, so how is the big lie now being processed by.

[00:06:46] Alex Tsakiris: I don’t know, intellectuals, also government agencies. Cuz it seems to me, again, kind of schizophrenic in that on one hand there’s some people that just kind of call it out and go, come on, this is just obviously a big lie. But then they, at the same time, in the next breath with the next sentence, they’ll be talking seriously about what is being quote unquote disclosed when you just wanna go time out.

[00:07:10] Alex Tsakiris: These guys, there’s a complete, there’s no basis for trusting any of these people. Tell me about that and how you struggled with that. I’m sure you, you tossed around with that in terms of even talking about disclosure even. How do you even begin to even give it any credibility?

[00:07:25] Jason Reza Jorjani: Yeah. I have struggled with it because I actually know people involved in this process, and so it’s been deeply disturbing to me to see it unfold. , but let me, let me go back to the big lie and, and highlight a few other aspects or dimensions of it. Another one, and, and by the way, as a, proviso to this, let’s just also, , remember that according to the u a p preliminary assessment, it isn’t just that from this point onward, all U F O data is supposed to be reported and centralized.

[00:07:57] Jason Reza Jorjani: Uh, and then analyzed by scientifically competent people, they also audited all of the branches of the military for any data that they’ve collected to. and clearly the Air Force and especially the Navy and other branches of the military have not handed over the decades of data that they have. I mean, for example, the, the now well documented and attested incidents that took place over the nuclear launch facilities of Air Force Bases was not handed over to, , anyone in the Senate Intelligence Committee, , by the Air Force.

[00:08:35] Jason Reza Jorjani: , so, you know, how is that a proper audit? Okay. So they covered up decades of data that they had proceeding these few incidents, , with Tic Tacs and so forth. That began in the early two thousands. , but the, the real point I wanted to make about, you know, other aspects of the big lie is that the U AAP preliminary assessment repeats the deception of the conduct committee that UFOs do not pose a threat to national security that we’ve been able to determine to date.

[00:09:07] Jason Reza Jorjani: It’s now, it’s now supposedly an open question, whether they do and where they may be coming from. But to date, they claim there’s never been any verification that these objects pose a threat to national security. , Clearly that’s false. I mean, being able to shut off like tens of ICBMs simultaneously so that we don’t have the capacity to launch in response to a Russian attack that’s clearly a threat to national security.

[00:09:32] Jason Reza Jorjani: And then if you go into, you know, all of the incidents of not just abductions, but cattle mutilations, look, in the mid 1970s, 74, 75, the cattle mutilations were on such a scale that the ranchers had basically beaten down the doors of the governors of the affected states. And the F b I was enlisted in a, uh, you know, uh, cross border investigation across like five or six southern states.

[00:10:03] Jason Reza Jorjani: And they couldn’t even come up with a single suspect who would be capable of carrying out this kind of laparoscopic surgery in the middle of the night in bizarre places. , and these cattle mutilation incidents ended with. Mutilated carcasses being dropped off inside the defense perimeter of NORAD in Colorado.

[00:10:22] Jason Reza Jorjani: How are you gonna tell me that’s not a, a threat to national security?

[00:10:26] Alex Tsakiris: As usual, and as you would do if you are running an operation like this, to just try to totally confuse and throw sand in the eyes of people. You’re, you’re saying two things. One, you’re saying it’s not a national security threat, which they said all along, which never made any sense, you know, but, but then at the same time you have, you know, the Lou Elizondo kind of thing come out and they’re saying this is a national security threat.

[00:10:50] Alex Tsakiris: And I am, quote unquote a whistleblower, ignore the fact that I am a counterintelligence agent. a disinformation agent. Provably. So ignore that fact. And now listen to me when I say I’m blowing the whistle, cuz these guys at the Pentagon, they’re asleep at the switch. This is a national security threat, so they want both messages out

[00:11:10] Jason Reza Jorjani: there, right.

[00:11:11] Jason Reza Jorjani: Yeah. Yeah. And so this is where now the devil is in the details. And you know, we, we, we start, we need to start asking more complex questions because look, , the, the most philosophically sophisticated part of that first chapter in my book, closer Encounters, that deals with this punitive disclosure, is where I get into this paper on UFOs and Sovereignty by Vent and Duvall.

[00:11:34] Jason Reza Jorjani: And these are serious political theorists who in, you know, a a mainstream academic journal.

[00:11:41] Alex Tsakiris: He’s been on the show, Alexander went, been on the show a couple times, talk about exactly

[00:11:44] Jason Reza Jorjani: this. Yeah. Wow. You really interviewed everybody. So, , so yeah, uh, I approached this from the standpoint of my background in Carl Schmidt’s analysis of the nature of political sovereignty, , German legal theorist from the 19, uh, twenties and thirties, who basically analyzed, , what the nature of sovereign power in a state is.

[00:12:07] Jason Reza Jorjani: And I lay out toward the end of that first chapter, , drawing from Vent and Duval on their, you know, uh, an analysis of UFOs and state sovereignty, all the reasons why no national government ought to be expected to admit that these phenomena are taking place. I mean, you cannot reveal to a tax paying populace that not only are you unable to defend the airspace of your country, especially when your country has the largest military budget in the world.

[00:12:38] Jason Reza Jorjani: right? For which you’re taxing the populace, but also that they’re not safe in their homes and their property is not safe. In the case of the cattle ranchers who’ve had all of these, you know, terrible mutilations take place. So, so you can’t, as a government, you can’t come clean about that until, and unless you have a defense against it, or, and here’s the other really disturbing possibility, unless the disclosure is going to take place without your approval.

[00:13:09] Jason Reza Jorjani: And so I suspect that the reason why we have, you know, counterintelligence agent Elizondo and, uh, Chris, uh, Meen, you know, of the old, uh, you know, CIA elites out here, uh, attempting to engineer some kind of soft disclosure is because somebody else is determining the timetable here for some other kind of disclosure that’s going to take place for, for certain reasons.

[00:13:38] Jason Reza Jorjani: And they’re trying to get out ahead of it and soften the landing as it were. , because otherwise it doesn’t make any. Why they would try to start coming clean with this now, , again, unless somebody else, perhaps from the side of the phenomenon is going to force a disclosure and or they’ve now developed a defense against it.

[00:13:58] Jason Reza Jorjani: And so, of course there is one hypothesis that these tic-tacs are, uh, you know, military industrial vehicles themselves. And that these exercises that were held with naval vessels were actually a way of demonstrating some capacity that the United States has now developed.

[00:14:13] Alex Tsakiris: Okay? As long as we’re playing the speculation game.

[00:14:16] Alex Tsakiris: Let me throw out a couple others and I wanna get your reaction to them. One this seems to be in play in some way that I don’t totally understand, but Hillary back, way back in the day, is setting herself up to be the disclosure president, right? And she’s laying all these hints and.

[00:14:34] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah, went through it through John Podesta and uh, Pizzagate, you know, the satanic kind of emails that upset the apple cart, the Christians and uh, kind of win about was one of the factors in costing them elections. And it always upsets me when people don’t understand, you know, they say, Pizzagate, oh, we can all work time.

[00:14:53] Alex Tsakiris: I say, no, you, you have to understand it was, do you understand as a political op, I mean, as a kind of trickster political game to kind of win win votes for Trump or pull votes away from Hillary. And then they’re like, oh yeah, well I’ll agree with that. I just don’t wanna agree with the other part of it anyways.

[00:15:07] Alex Tsakiris: I don’t wanna digress too far, but, so you have Hillary poised to be, she wants to be the disclosure president and she don’t get the , she don’t get the job. So now she kind of backdoors it out there through whatever, but it winds up in the New York Times, right? A year later. And Leslie Kane, Ralph Blumenthal both been on the show, have the byline and the New York Times.

[00:15:33] Alex Tsakiris: Everyone’s saying this isn’t a political psyop, it clearly is a political psyop. And I like those people. I don’t know why they’re, I don’t know how and why they’re falling for that, or if they are falling for that. So that’s one factor that I’d like you, because you, again, you’re the guy who’s gonna be engaged with, you know, here is the political factor in it.

[00:15:55] Alex Tsakiris: So let’s talk about that for a minute and then if you can, I’ll throw another thing on the table and you can pick and. This latest round of disclosure is curiously connected to the pandemic, right?

[00:16:10] Alex Tsakiris: And now the narrative against switches to, Hey, let’s get back to talking about disclosure. Remember, let’s get back on that. What do you make of those two kind of points in history and how they might relate to

[00:16:23] Jason Reza Jorjani: this? Hillary wasn’t allowed to be the disclosure president because the timetable was wrong. It was way too early.

[00:16:31] Jason Reza Jorjani: And I think that the connection between the pandemic, and by the way, you know, just on a, as a side note, Hillary and Bill Clinton went to, , Lawrence Rockefeller’s ranch, and they tried to enlist, well actually, I mean, they were, they were, uh, basically ingratiating him. He had invited them and he was trying to enlist their assistance in his attempt at some kind of independent U F O investigation back in those days, which did produce like a, you know, nice, thick volume of scientific papers.

[00:17:03] Jason Reza Jorjani: , it was on some estate, I guess in New York or something like that. Anyway, uh, and in the course of conversations with Lawrence Rockefeller, bill Clinton told him that the subject is a tar. and that he’s learned that he should stay away from it after some initial attempts in the Oval Office to get information out of various agencies.

[00:17:25] Jason Reza Jorjani: And in, in a way, I think he’s kind of right that it is a tar baby, uh, for reasons that we’ll get into. But I think the connection between the pandemic, uh, so, so it was the wrong time back then. Now it’s the right time. Why is it the right time? And what’s the connection to, the way it was used to basically usher in, you know, a, a quasi totalitarian control system and a state of emergency?

[00:17:48] Jason Reza Jorjani: I think the connection has to do with what’s called the technological singularity. So this is at the core of my argument in closer encounters, this idea that there is a certain convergent advancement of technologies taking place, genetics, robotics, artificial intelligence, nanotechnology, which may bring us to a point where technological development is no longer a gradual upward slope.

[00:18:18] Jason Reza Jorjani: Instead it reaches a spike, meaning that, , the kind of intelligence involved in further, , Manufacturing and development of various technologies past that point is really of a higher order than human intelligence. And it’s no longer possible to extrapolate from the past developments to some projected future that’s a spike or a singularity in the course of the history of technological development and how it’s transformed society.

[00:18:48] Jason Reza Jorjani: And I believe that the pandemic was the fir and, and, you know, all the things attended to it, are the first phase in a phased process of industrialization and an attempt to basically wreck our advanced technical culture. Uh, so, so now, and I know a lot of people who have concerns about transhumanism and, you know, U of L Hararis rhetoric and so forth may find that hard to believe cuz it seems like this, you know, uh, this, , steam engine is going at full speed right toward a transhumanist future.

[00:19:21] Jason Reza Jorjani: But actually I think that these are two sides of a single dialectic. And that what represented was the beginning of a process of the controlled demolition of industrial civilization that’s connected to U F O disclosure because. The technological singularity for all the ways in which it does threaten us with the prospect of a dehumanized borg like future.

[00:19:46] Jason Reza Jorjani: The technological singularity also holds out the prospect of a Promethean empowerment of humanity with the same level of technology as the beings behind the U f O phenomenon. It will give us technological parody, which also means it would give us the capacity to defend ourselves and to determine our own future.

[00:20:04] Jason Reza Jorjani: So, so to make it very simple, if a disclosure is going to take place from the side of the phenomenon itself, why would beings who have gone around abducting, people carrying out mutilations, manipulating society in various ways, uh, you know, perhaps for centuries, why would they want us to achieve technological parody with them before they openly integrated themselves with our society?

[00:20:28] Jason Reza Jorjani: No, obviously, they would want us to be at a severe disadvantage and in a weakened position. And so I think what we’re gonna see beginning in 2020, all the way through to the middle of the century, are other things like , convergent catastrophes that are meant to prevent convergences in technological development that could give us an equal footing or at least a fighting chance in the face of these entities.

[00:20:53] Alex Tsakiris: Super interesting. , this is gonna maybe be the, the template for a lot of the ongoing discussion we’re gonna have, because, A lot of your points are incredibly insightful in my opinion, and undeniable in my opinion, and yet your conclusions. I’m not so sure that, uh, I, I, I see where it can go the other way.

[00:21:12] Alex Tsakiris: So, first of all, and I don’t know if you want to elaborate on this more, it’d probably be more, , efficient for you just to reference some of your other books where you do elaborate on this extremely eloquently and thoroughly, and that is this technological singularity because when you dig into it, that word has become charged and all the rest of this, but on a very.

[00:21:36] Alex Tsakiris: Simple level. It’s really rather obvious. I mean, advances in genetics are just obviously at a tipping point. Advances in AI are just obviously at a tipping point. You know, we touched on the last time you were here, , free energy quote unquote, uh, obviously at a tipping point in terms of those technologies.

[00:21:57] Alex Tsakiris: So that’s just to name a few. So that point, you know, I can argue with you about where that goes and the Promethean, you know, reclaim of it and all the rest of that. But people have to know that, don’t argue with that part cuz that’s kind of pretty undeniable. And , the second point, which is I think super important, undeniable, I’m gonna an explanation point on it, is the transhumanism because I think it connects with this deep knowledge you have and front soldier knowledge you have of parapsychology.

[00:22:28] Alex Tsakiris: Cuz I didn’t interview, I don’t know now it’s six months, maybe it’s going on a year ago with, uh, Dean Raden and stunning, stunning, stunning interview because I’m talking to Dean Raden and he says, yeah, well I’m, I’m at Ion still, but what I’m really working on is this biotech startup where we’re using the technology to jab people so that they’ll become hivemind and psychic and mind means you.

[00:22:55] Alex Tsakiris: Gosh, just look at the horror of Ukraine and how these people are fighting. We don’t want that. We want ’em all to be ants in and anthill, this is what he’s saying. Go listen to my interview folks. I’m not exaggerating. This is what he says. He, he, he gives a, you know, the metaphor of, uh, , story that he’s pitching for tv, but that’s his thing and that’s his concern.

[00:23:17] Alex Tsakiris: So the thing that I think is just so fascinating, and again, talking to you, one of the few people that we could talk to about this is, this is one of the main guys in parapsychology on the forefront.

[00:23:30] Alex Tsakiris: And I don’t think he’s like part of some secret cabal. He’s just naively following this programming to another conclusion that none of us would logically come to, which is, you know, hive mind. So the, the point I’m, I’m gonna return to is that transhumanism? Hell yes. And the one thing he said, the one thing Braden says that is kind of undeniably true is cuz I was pushing back on him pretty hard.

[00:23:58] Alex Tsakiris: He goes, well whatever you say, this train has left the station. And he is absolutely right. This train has left the station. And that brings us back to your point about, you know, how are we going to, what are we gonna do with that?

[00:24:14] Jason Reza Jorjani: So let me make, , two points in response to that, , that have to do with the technological singularity.

[00:24:19] Jason Reza Jorjani: Uh, and, and in the first case with its connection to parapsychology, as far as I’m aware, Dean Raden a number of years ago, was also working on machines that interact with and augment certain SI abilities. And so I think that one thing that the transhumanists, I mean the materialist ones, which are virtually all of them, don’t take into consideration, is how the closer we get to this technological singularity, the closer we get to say an artificial general intelligence being engineered.

[00:24:53] Jason Reza Jorjani: The more, phenomena that had been studied in parapsychology laboratories for over a century are going to be legitimated and validated by mainstream science. There is no way that you are going to build a conscious computer without seeing telepathy and psychokinesis take place inside AI laboratories.

[00:25:15] Jason Reza Jorjani: PSI phenomena are a property of consciousness and if you actually succeed in building an artificial general intelligence, probably drawing extensively from genetic engineering and biology as well in the process, I think this is something that they’re gonna realize is that they’re gonna need to draw extensively from biology on the way to developing some kind of functional ai.

[00:25:38] Jason Reza Jorjani: But they’re gonna notice that this. Is causing anomalies in the, uh, engineering project. And they will be forced eventually with the huge budgets that they have to study, the same types of phenomena that parapsychologists have been studying for close to a century now. And so the technological singularity is going to cause what I call the spectral revolution.

[00:26:04] Jason Reza Jorjani: It will be the approach toward that singularity will be the catalyst for mainstream scientific acceptance of sigh. Now that is relevant to the U f O phenomenon as well because one thing we know from all these decades of close encounter reports, and here I’m talking most about close encounters of the third and fourth kind, is that the beings behind UFOs are tremendously psychic.

[00:26:28] Jason Reza Jorjani: They appear to have significantly greater SI ability than at least the average human. And a lot of the interactions with them are, are, uh, you know, telepathic or clairvoyant in nature. And there have been also demonstrations of psychokinesis and so forth. And so one of the problems that we face, which I, you know, I devote some time to discussing in the book, is that if disclosure really takes place and we have to integrate with these beings on some level in terms of a common social structure, that would have to be a society where we could deal.

[00:27:09] Jason Reza Jorjani: Widespread cultivation of SI including psychokinesis. And this raises serious questions about personal integrity and safety and interpersonal trust and so forth, which we haven’t even begun to grapple with. But I think it’s another dimension of the secrecy behind the U f O phenomenon that many people don’t consider.

[00:27:32] Jason Reza Jorjani: Namely, you know, the potential catastrophe of large scale integration of side phenomena given the current state of human society on a planetary scale. So that’s one point in response that I wanted to make. And there’s another, but if you want, if you want to interject anything before I go on.

[00:27:50] Alex Tsakiris: Let me add this to it and then you can work it into the 0.2. We’ve already been there. This is the, this is our history with, uh, parapsychology. This is Andre Padre, this is Uri Geller. This is Russell Targ. And more, more importantly, Hal put off. So they’re doing this stuff and orbs are showing up and all this other stuff and exactly the way that you’re talking about, and we’d still, and the way we stumbled through that and continue to stumble through that.

[00:28:20] Alex Tsakiris: I would , counter hypothesize that that can go on for a long time. that, that there doesn’t have to be any, any change in that. And you can still, and, and that’s where I think Dean Raden is interesting cuz Dean Raden is not a materialist. And Dean Raden wrote a book on spirits and he said, God, that’s the first time ever considered spirits.

[00:28:38] Alex Tsakiris: Which I think is a classic kind of materialist humanist who’s, you know, 30 years into his research and going, I, I never even thought about that before. So you see where I’m going. Maybe the change doesn’t come in the way that you’re talking about. Maybe that change isn’t tied to that technological singularity or approach to singularity.

[00:29:01] Jason Reza Jorjani: , I give a number of arguments for why I think it will be, uh, I mean one has to do with ai what I was just saying about ai because for example, we saw in the Princeton Engineering anomalies research program that was run by Robert John, Dean of Engineering at Princeton, that. The more sensitive electronic components are.

[00:29:19] Jason Reza Jorjani: In other words, the, the, as the scale of circuitry decreases and approaches molecular nanotechnology, the more circuit boards are vulnerable to psychokinesis. It appears that, , micro electrical mechanical systems are much more vulnerable to fluctuation in the face of directed intentionality than large scale mechanical systems.

[00:29:43] Jason Reza Jorjani: And so when you get to the level of engineering quantum computers in order to produce an artificial general intelligence, I think there’s gonna be a lot of interference from psychokinesis that won’t have been accounted for, and that’s going to be treated as a research bottleneck. That’s one avenue.

[00:29:59] Jason Reza Jorjani: Another one has to do with what Rupert Sheray calls morphic resonance. Now that the, , mapping of, of the genome in the context of CRISPR technology is becoming much more, uh, detailed and comprehensive, and attempts are being made to re-engineer the morphological development of organisms, I think that anomalies are gonna be detected in biology laboratories that have to do with the influence of morphic fields.

[00:30:30] Jason Reza Jorjani: Of the kind that Shel Drake has hypothesized and that then biologists, mainstream biologists are gonna have to contend with a form of what we’ve considered parapsychological phenomena to date. So there’s multiple avenues through which I think mainstream scientific research as it approaches the technological singularity is gonna validate sci phenomena in a way that’s really unprecedented.

[00:30:51] Jason Reza Jorjani: The other point that I wanted to make that has to do with technological singularity and UFOs is that in a way, the epitomizing technology of the singularity is the capability to produce a controlled singularity. So, you know, the technological singularity is a metaphor. It’s a metaphor that comes from the idea of like a black hole.

[00:31:15] Jason Reza Jorjani: And we know based on, you know, various research that’s been done. One good book on this is Nick Cook’s the Hunt for Zero Point. Nick Cook was a journalist who wrote for Jane’s Defense, . So one of the, the top, uh, defense, uh, industrial, uh, journals in aerospace.


[00:31:34] Alex Tsakiris: , I’m sorry to interject. , did you read he wrote a biography on Ingo Swan.

[00:31:37] Jason Reza Jorjani: Are you serious? Nick Cook wrote a biography of Ingo Swan. Wow. All right. I will try to move that to the top of my list. Towards the top of my list. Yeah, that’s that’s very interesting. I would love to read that. So he wrote this whole book, Nick Cook did on Zero Point Energy. Uh, and according to him since the 1950s, there, there’s, there’s evidence in old newspapers like the New York Carroll Tribune, that, uh, companies like Lear Martin Aircraft and others were working on Zero Point Energy. In other words, electrogravidic propulsion as early as the 1950s.

[00:32:17] Jason Reza Jorjani: And that for some re and they were giving statements to the press about this, it was as if they were gonna be rolling these anti-gravity craft off the assembly line within a few years, and then it goes dead silent. And, you know, there’s been all kinds of speculation about why that would’ve been the case and who might have approached these people and, you know, explained to them that they can’t move forward with this, at least in the public.

[00:32:39] Jason Reza Jorjani: And then of course we know that Martin Aircraft wound up merging with Lockheed and becoming Lockheed Martin. And then, you know, Lockheed’s one of the CEOs of Lockheed shortly, Ben Rich, shortly before he died. Claimed that we had the technology to take et back home, quote unquote. In any case, I think one thing that people have lost sight of in this whole discussion of zero point energy and why that technology, , is, is being held in the black world, is that if you produce a controlled singularity, you are not just achieving an extraordinary propulsion system, you’re manipulating the fabric of space time.

[00:33:21] Jason Reza Jorjani: A U F O is a flying time machine that opens up a whole other horizon because now we’re talking about the capacity to potentially rewrite the timeline of human history, and that’s extremely dangerous and volatile. Okay. So I think another, uh, aspect of this connection between the technological singularity and the U f O phenomenon is that the beings who are behind this phenomenon have what I describe as a fifth dimensional relationship to our 4D chronological space time.

[00:34:01] Jason Reza Jorjani: And so if we were to, uh, develop zero point energy technology, at least, you know, in a, in a public sense, then we would interfere with, or at least we’d have the capacity to interfere. With whatever way they are attempting to control the narrative unfoldment of human history. And so, so in a lot of ways the, the achievement of zero point energy is the pith of the technological singularity.

[00:34:41] Jason Reza Jorjani: And I think that the more genetic engineering advances, the more AI advances, the less it’s going to be possible to keep z p E in the dark. Because I mean, once you have AI systems engineering in aerospace, and once you have, , IQs, human IQs enhanced to 200 through genetic engineering, through crispr, the number of engineers who are going to figure out how Z p E works are gonna be too, too many to suppress.

[00:35:14] Jason Reza Jorjani: And so the technological singularity has to be, , averted. It has, we ha we have to, they have to basically slow our advance to the singularity to prevent us from a public development of Z P E technology, which again, to go back to my initial remarks, would give us parity with the beings behind the close encounter phenomenon.

[00:35:35] Alex Tsakiris: Um, so, so interesting. And so that last point though, I, I, I still have to say maybe, but all the points leading up to it. Again, folks, undeniable. I mean, I think if you just go read Jason’s books, many presentations that he’s done, many books, he’s making the case really, really strong in a lot of these points.

[00:35:55] Alex Tsakiris: I’d go back to the zero point energy thing. Cause we touched on it a little bit in the last interview where you were right there taking the guy who said he had reverse engineered the Nazi bell. Let’s take it to Jacque Vallee. Let’s do the, so we’re always gonna be pushing that edge, you know?

[00:36:08] Alex Tsakiris: So pulling back the reigns never really works, especially from a political stand, from a geopolitical standpoint. You can pull back the reigns all you want. You can’t get China to pull back the reigns. You can’t get India to pull whoever you wanna pick out there. You know, you can’t have a magic wand and say, oh, we’re gonna dampen this down.

[00:36:28] Alex Tsakiris: You can try. And the other interesting thing I think that you touched on, Multiple times and we can kind of return to is the other thing about zero point en energy is bomb, it’s a weapon. So when you talk about, , , it’s all these things have these kind of strange, almost, uh, comical kind of duality to them.

[00:36:48] Alex Tsakiris: Is is it a national security threat? Hell yes. It’s a national security threat. Zero point energy could make a nuclear bomb look like a, a firecracker in the

[00:36:59] Jason Reza Jorjani: backyard, according to Hal put off, uh, zero point energy, the same kind of zero point energy that provides for electrogravidic propulsion allows you to take, uh, a coffee cup’s worth of, , material, let’s say mercury, thorium, and produce an explosive yield that would vaporize all the oceans of earth.

[00:37:27] Jason Reza Jorjani: Okay, so that’s the order of magnitude more destructive than nuclear weapons that this technology is. Well, excuse me, but are you gonna put that like in the form of a propane tank in every, you know, Joe, Moe and Larry’s backyard? Like h this is the worst security nightmare imaginable. We would need a completely different form of society in order to mainstream this technology.

[00:37:51] Jason Reza Jorjani: And you

[00:37:51] Alex Tsakiris: say , global control.

[00:37:55] Jason Reza Jorjani: Not just global control, but to go back to what you were saying about Dean RA’s research, mind control, I mean, genetic gen as

[00:38:02] Alex Tsakiris: what you were saying, let’s, we can’t rely, we’ve already pushed mind control and we’ve gotten pretty good at it. But hey, let’s go the next step.

[00:38:09] Alex Tsakiris: Dna, genetic,

[00:38:10] Jason Reza Jorjani: biological, right? And my response to that, I mean, over the, over the course of my entire corpus, is that we should take a completely different approach, which is that we need an ethical reorientation of society and we need to develop a kind of ethos that, uh, embraces the potential of science and technology for human flourishing and that valorizes human individuality and liberty.

[00:38:37] Jason Reza Jorjani: And so, but that’s a, a, a potentially very violent, large scale, revolutionary, struggle that’s gonna need to be waged on a global scale to create that kind of a society where we can have, you know, the level of trust, uh, so as to be able to mainstream Z P E technology or for that matter, so as to have a widespread cultivation of SI ability.

[00:38:58] Jason Reza Jorjani: That’s my argument, that that’s the direction we should go in rather than to allow ourselves to be engineered genetically and nano technologically into some kind of hive minded borg species. And that’s

[00:39:09] Alex Tsakiris: what always lands you on the hot seat, Jason this talk like that is taking it to its logical conclusion.

[00:39:16] Alex Tsakiris: We do not want you to do that, but that’s kind of an interesting segue. The players that we see on the field because it is, I don’t know what to make of it. And I used to always just think everything’s an op and it’s conspiratorial because everything did seem to turn out that way. And now I’m starting to maybe understand that people like, again to pick on Dean Raden, but I guess he kind of deserves it, in my opinion.

[00:39:46] Alex Tsakiris: You know, Dean is, Dean doesn’t strike me as like , an evil genius or something like that who’s cooking this stuff up. He’s just, Hey man, you know, he believes in the phony climate change science. He really believes in that. And he really believes, cuz I know because years ago he kind of, he kind of told me that, he doesn’t choose to look in the . We had a discussion about the , just when it was blowing up about the public databases, military databases that showed 600% increase in. And he was just like, you know, maybe, but I don’t know. I can’t go there.

[00:40:20] Alex Tsakiris: And then he said, you know, if we make an omelet, you gotta break a few eggs kind of thing, which is just really scary. But again, here’s my point before I just ramble on. What do you make of some of the players on this field who we are look to? Are they all just. Part of the op? Are they, you know, uh, Tom DeLonge.

[00:40:40] Alex Tsakiris: Okay. He was a great one cuz he isn’t really an intellectual at all. He was this but a total fail. He clearly an op and he fails and then they pull him off the stage. Say no, no, not you then Lou Elizondo we already talked about. But what about people like Avi Loeb at Harvard and the Galileo project? It’s just, the fakery is just so stunningly obvious.

[00:41:00] Alex Tsakiris: Neil deGrasse Tyson is such a joke at this point that it doesn’t, he, he, it’s almost like, I mean he’s about at the level of Bill NY now where he is Just kind of a joke. Gary Nolan, it’s Stanford is a super interesting guy to me cuz he was win.

[00:41:14] Alex Tsakiris: He’s stealthy in American Cosmic, which is a super important book by Dr. Diana Walsh Polka. But then he comes out and then he’s behind Fauci and all the, and you just, who, is there anyone out there that you feel you can kind of trust and are there people out there that you feel like are maybe accepted too readily by people who really shouldn’t be trusted?

[00:41:40] Alex Tsakiris: And do you care to

[00:41:41] Jason Reza Jorjani: mention any of them? It’s really depressing. Um, Alex, uh, I mean, because. , every single name you mentioned falls into the category in my book of people who you can’t trust again, not because they’re some kind of, uh, evil masterminds or something like that. No. Um, I’m sorry to say, it’s because they’re useful idiots and also they’re people who want publicity.

[00:42:08] Jason Reza Jorjani: You know, , when you get the spotlight shown on you for promoting a certain narrative, there’s a positive reinforcement that takes place. And as you get more and more media attention, you drink the Kool-Aid.

[00:42:21] Jason Reza Jorjani: Uh, uh, in Persian, there’s this expression, it’s like, become making yourself stupid. You know? You, you like choose to forget certain things so that you can continue to get this attention and have this place on the stage.

[00:42:37] Jason Reza Jorjani: , so yeah, it’s very depressing.

[00:42:38] Alex Tsakiris: Anybody you trust or kind of trust?

[00:42:41] Jason Reza Jorjani: Well, well, look, I. If you wanna see a kind of, uh, uh, an index of that, just look at closer encounters, because I cite a tremendous amount of research, uh, from people in various fields. Unfortunately, most of them are either dead or no longer active.

[00:43:01] Jason Reza Jorjani: It’s, I drawn a lot of researchers from past decades, , or, you know, in the case of let’s say William Bramley, who wrote an excellent book, the Gods of Eden, uh, looking at War and economics, uh, looking at the close encounter phenomenon with fr through the lens of social engineering and the manipulation of, of societies with a view to, , the production of conflict and, , the economic value of that.

[00:43:26] Jason Reza Jorjani: That book was written many decades ago. William Bramley is still around, but he hasn’t, you know, done any new research. So there, there’s a lot of examples of people like that who are either no longer active, , or their passed on, but their work ha, you know, had a lot of integrity and was quite rigorous.

[00:43:44] Jason Reza Jorjani: And sadly, I think that the more this subject is being mainstreamed, the more compromised the research is becoming, , which, which makes sense, of course, because if you’re gonna control the narrative, that’s exactly what you need to do.

[00:43:56] Alex Tsakiris: Let’s talk about Mars for a minute. And it’s actually kind of an interesting segue, if you will, from the disclosure thing, because you know, I, let’s talk about Mars, then I hope to pull you into a discussion about, , near death experience and extended consciousness, which is really what interests me the most.

[00:44:16] Alex Tsakiris: But it, it’s so important your work that we have to kind of go through it step by step in order to have any kind of meaningful discussion. Cuz again, it, it’s so nuanced. Between your data and your preclusions and then your meta conclusions. You know what I mean? So the reason I think Mars, the association with disclosure is of course it is like idiotically obvious they’re not disclosing about Mars.

[00:44:45] Alex Tsakiris: I mean, can one even imagine the thousands, hundreds of thousands, I don’t know, millions of high resolution images they have with of Mars. They don’t release any of it. So we had back, you know, when we had the face and we had the pyramid, we had all these structures that are clearly, uh, made by some form of non-human intelligence

[00:45:04] Alex Tsakiris: And they just, they just deny all that. And now they’re gonna have disclosure and they go, yeah, but you don’t really need to look at any of those images. So, uh, maybe talk about, let’s start talking about Mars, maybe from that perspective of how it’s blatantly obviously a case of we’re not gonna disclose anything really.

[00:45:23] Jason Reza Jorjani: So the only thing that I would, , pick on in that, in that, , the formulation of that question is the phrase non-human intelligence. Because Mars has been repeatedly remote, viewed by, , CIA associated remote viewers. It, Ingo Swan remote viewed Mars twice for the cia once in the 1970s, and once again in, I believe it was 1984.

[00:45:50] Jason Reza Jorjani: And in the, in the second, , session, he had I think five or six other remote viewers who were of course all independently tasked, , carry out the, the session, the project with him. And unbeknownst to Ingo Swan at the same time, , Joe McMonagle was remote viewing Mars at the Monroe Institute, also for the c i a.

[00:46:17] Jason Reza Jorjani: So, and neither of these groups were aware of each other. And they both reported that the people who built those megalithic structures on Mars, which are of a larger scale than anything in Egypt, inclu, including the Great Pyramid, the people who built those structures were human. In other words, they looked like, you know, human beings.

[00:46:40] Jason Reza Jorjani: And in particular, they were described as being, , Very tall, like, you know, the height of basketball players with very broad shoulders and generally having a kind of Nordic or European look to them. , and so, so they were people. Now, the really disturbing thing about Mars, which I think is behind the suppression of, of all this photographic imagery and behind, you know, generally the disinformation surrounding Mars, is that there’s scientific evidence that some kind of a nuclear war took place there.

[00:47:14] Jason Reza Jorjani: , I cite, uh, Dr. John Brandenburg’s research, uh, in closer encounters with respect to this, uh, thesis. And I actually had the opportunity of spending several days with Dr. Brandenburg, , where I got to engage him personally on this subject. And, you know, he’s a, a scientist who’s worked with NASA on the Clementine Project, and he also did some work at Sandia National Laboratory where there is a lot of focus on nuclear weapons development.

[00:47:45] Jason Reza Jorjani: And so one of his colleagues at Sandia looked at isotopic analyses that Brandon Berg had in his possession, uh, isotopic analyses, , of samples from two locations on Mars. And this, , colleague just as very casually and bluntly said to him, somebody nuked. because it appears that the levels of Xenon 1 29, and I think maybe one or two other isotopes that you find at Sidonia, and I think the other site was Elysium.

[00:48:19] Jason Reza Jorjani: At these two locations on Mars, you have isotopic ratios of Xenon 1 29 that are modified from what they should be in exactly the same way as we find at thermonuclear test sites on earth. And he was able to estimate what yield of nuclear explosion could have produced something like this. And he came to the conclusion that it would’ve required basically an Empire State building’s worth of our highest yield thermonuclear weapons.

[00:48:52] Jason Reza Jorjani: And lo and behold, this radiological signature is at exactly the place where we find all of these megalithic ruins. So that paints a very dark and disturbing picture that people on Mars and he, here’s the real kicker, apparently more than a hundred million years ago, wound up annihilating themselves in some kind of a thermonuclear war.

[00:49:19] Jason Reza Jorjani: And then you put this next to what, , Joe McMonagle saw at the Monroe Institute doing remote viewing of Mars for the cia. And you get a really chilling picture because McMonagle said, These people, after they faced the destruction of the Martian ecosystem, the basically failure of the Martian biosphere, they, , came to earth and they found an earth that was not habitable by humanoids, , an earth where there were, there were incredibly violent storms.

[00:49:52] Jason Reza Jorjani: There, there was all kinds of flon, gigantic floran fauna and giant beasts. , constant electrical storms, massive volcanic activity. And long story short, they came to the conclusion that they would have to terraform this planet in order to inhabit it. And I make an argument drawing on, on all kinds of research about anomalies on the moon.

[00:50:13] Jason Reza Jorjani: , I make an argument in closer encounters that these martians that, , McMonagle was viewing, got to the earth from Mars and then proceeded to terraform the Earth using what we call the moon. And that the moon is some kind of basically artificial satellite that performs a variety of functions. , and that initially was developed as part of a project to alter the biosphere of the earth, to render it habitable for humans.

[00:50:44] Jason Reza Jorjani: So, so, you know, I mean, this is mind bending, but I think that it’s, it’s a why there’s all the secrecy around Mars. , namely because Mars at one point was. An abode for, uh, human civilization.

[00:51:01] Alex Tsakiris: Well, yeah, there’s a, there’s a ton to unpack there. And again, folks, closer encounters, go read the book and appreciate the case that Jason is making here cuz it’s not like off the cuff.

[00:51:16] Alex Tsakiris: Ken remarks a ton of references in there. And again, I’m gonna push back on some of the conclusions, but absolutely essential to have the, the data points that an intellectual, a philosopher who’s looking at it from all these different aspects would put on the table and say, I have to make this consistent in some way.

[00:51:34] Alex Tsakiris: Otherwise it’s, it’s meaningless if I just talk about it in this narrow way in terms of nuts and bolts. That doesn’t get us anywhere. And that’s what’s really wonderful about this work. And with that, I’m going to kind of play it in your head. I’d love for you to circle back at some point and talk about then what Mars means as a element of the disclosure project.

[00:51:57] Alex Tsakiris: Because I think it is often left, it is always left off the table, right. So they, the Senate subcommittee, they didn’t say, oh yeah, in the Mars photos. Yeah. Don’t forget about those. You know, those will be in the mix too. So it’s almost, I don’t know, are they redirecting us towards the craft and towards the other stuff for a purpose that they have to not talk about this other thing, which would be an interesting.

[00:52:19] Alex Tsakiris: Let me pause there. Well, and then, and then I wanna pick up on Brandenburg. He’s been on the show, McMonagle been on the show, and I think there’s some really, really important stuff to talk about with, uh, both those guys. But first, what do you think about that?

[00:52:33] Jason Reza Jorjani: Two things to say about that. One is that people like Avi Loeb, , and other, uh, mainstream scientists who’ve become involved in this conversation, micho Cock, who also now has accepted that the u i p phenomenon is real.

[00:52:49] Jason Reza Jorjani: , people who are, you know, very esteemed, mainstream scientists tend to want to, , put our point of focus on some distant star system, or perhaps even another galaxy as the point of origin of these u a P. , you know, they, they want to basically, , perpetuate the narrative that we’re being visited by some kind of, , extraterrestrial intelligence that is located at a great distance from the

[00:53:19] Alex Tsakiris: earth.

[00:53:20] Alex Tsakiris: Ho, hold on. Can, can I pause that for a second? Cuz I, I believe that the evidence for that is pretty strong. So before we get to that and we can hash that out, do you think it’s curious though, and you, you’re saying that it is, but isn’t it curious that Mars never comes. Mars never comes up. , it’d be so simple, I believe, have all the photos, I mean, just release the photos. It’s, it’s not like, you know, we have, oh, it’s big. We have a gather. We got all the photos.

[00:53:49] Jason Reza Jorjani: So look, I don’t disagree with you that we could, we could be being visited by ETS from Distant Star Systems. , if you go by the Drake equation, I mean, you know, the, the galaxy, let alone the universe should be full of, , advanced extraterrestrial civilizations.

[00:54:08] Jason Reza Jorjani: And it would be odd if our solar system weren’t visited by some of them. But I think the problem is this, that people in the C I A and the d o D who’ve been looking at all of this since the 1950s have realized that the majority of u a P encounters involve a civilization local to our solar system and a civilization that is not, it, it, it’s not alien.

[00:54:39] Jason Reza Jorjani: Okay. ET Yeah. Mars is extraterrestrial if people come here from Mars, technically they’re extraterrestrials. But what the remote viewers saw in Mars, and by the way, what the remote viewers like Ingo Swan also saw on the moon are people and, and people. In a very disturbing, , twist happened to look a lot like Nordic Europeans, the so-called Nordics of the Close Encounter phenomenon.

[00:55:05] Jason Reza Jorjani: And so I think the reason why Mars isn’t discussed is because if we were to look at the data we have from Mars, it would become painfully obvious that the close encounter phenomenon is a question of the internal relationship between two factions of humanity. Humans who have had a civilization that goes back further than we can wrap our minds around, , and who we’re responsible for, you know, what our myths remember as Atlantis and so on and so forth.

[00:55:37] Jason Reza Jorjani: The culture that seeded all of these, , megalithic ruins around the world. And that, that’s a really disturbing thing to have to deal with because it’s one thing if you tell people, okay, there are these advanced ETS coming from, I don’t know, Zeta Reticuli, or they’re coming from another galaxy, it’s another thing for you to, and they’re abducting people and they’re tearing out mutilation and so on and so forth.

[00:55:59] Jason Reza Jorjani: It’s another thing for you to tell people. There are these other humans and they see themselves as on another level than us, and they believe they have the prerogative to so massively interfere in our lives on an individual and a social level. And by the way, folks, they’ve been doing this for millennia.

[00:56:16] Jason Reza Jorjani: Well, that’s a whole different narrative to ha to face people with there you’re dealing with. Tyranny of the classic form, and you’re creating condi by, by making such a disclosure, you’re creating conditions for effectively a slave revolt, revolt, or a liberation struggle where, you know, the, the people who are behind the veil here , who are, you know, responsible for U f O manifestations are human beings who may have, you know, greater psychic or technological capacities than us, but who ultimately are a part of the same race and species.

[00:56:53] Jason Reza Jorjani: Uh, that’s really disturbing. And I think that’s why Mars hasn’t been discussed. Because if we, you know, as soon as you disclose the high resolution photographs of Sedona, the next step with the space technology that SpaceX has is to go down and find out what’s underneath those structures, and we’re gonna find megalithic human cities.

[00:57:12] Jason Reza Jorjani: Okay. And that, you know, then we have to, as I said, deal with this sociopolitical problem of the relation between these two factions of humanity. These people who treat us like basically, , chattel or lab Guinea pigs, . Right. And who’ve set themselves up as overlords and social e engineers above us.

[00:57:33] Jason Reza Jorjani: Yeah.

[00:57:33] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah, we’re gonna have to keep plowing through this to get there, but you make some just outstanding points. Let me throw a couple of just data points on the table that I’m not gonna necessarily connect, but they’re kind of loose ends. One of the things about Joe McMonagle in his RV session, which again, anyone can go online and read the transcript. I don’t know how this thing escaped, it’s just accidental that it escaped classification. But it is probably, cuz it was at the Monroe Institute, even though as you correctly point out, it was under the supervision, the c i a and he lays it all out.

[00:58:09] Alex Tsakiris: I don’t think he exactly says that they are human, but I think essentially what you’re saying is exactly correct. One of the things though that’s interesting is he’s tasked with remote viewing million years BC and you kinda say in the book, well, you know, maybe, maybe not, but my, uh, knowledge of remote viewers, and I’ve read a lot, read about a lot of them, interviewed, many of them who were directly involved in the Stargate program, is they’re pretty precise.

[00:58:37] Alex Tsakiris: When they go back to a date, they don’t slip and slide. And the reason that’s important is because of course Brandenburg, who’s also been on the show and as you correctly kind of point out, . Has the background, has the intellectual muscle. I mean, this is what he does, this kind of physics analysis of these isotopes to say conclusively, hey, I couldn’t believe it either.

[00:58:57] Alex Tsakiris: Then I looked and I said, Hey, does any of the stardust that we have show any of this, any background radiation, show this any place else we can look where we show that these isotopes have been manipulated to look this way? And the answer is no, no, no, no, no. The only thing we’ve ever seen it come from is our own darn nuclear bombs, which is really important.

[00:59:20] Alex Tsakiris: The original date he said on that I think was 250 million. I think, if I remember correctly. He’s kind of revised that to maybe, probably 180 million. But now we’re talking about, I don’t know. I don’t if if you wanna comment on that, you can. I don’t feel a need to completely nail that down because I think the broader, uh, perspective that you’re bringing is so, so important.

[00:59:48] Alex Tsakiris: I don’t want to, we, we’ll never know how some of these things tie together, but I, I guess that’s one point. Do you wanna comment on that or should I just kind of plow forward

[00:59:57] Jason Reza Jorjani: with No, I mean, I, I don’t, I don’t wanna say it doesn’t make a difference whether it was 250 million years ago or, or 150 million years or, or 180 million years ago.

[01:00:04] Jason Reza Jorjani: I mean, sure, but it doesn’t make a difference in terms of what the bigger point is here, though, the bigger point is that we had an advance. Space faring solar system-wide humanoid civilization, you know, millions upon millions of years ago on Mars. And it destroyed itself. And it’s quite possible that the entities that did that are behind the u a P phenomena.

[01:00:32] Jason Reza Jorjani: And that’s, you know, that that’s what the main point is, that we need to wrap our minds around the implications of that.

[01:00:39] Alex Tsakiris: Completely agree. Now, the other interesting thing about Joe McMonagle, and I’ll touch on it here and then hopefully we can really dive into it later, is, do you know the history of Joe McMonagle in his near death experience?

[01:00:53] Alex Tsakiris: No. Super interesting. Jason, you’d find it just fascinating. He is a spy, like a real spy. He’s in the army. He’s on the East Germany, west Germany border. He’s in a restaurant of a spy restaurant, like you said, movies, you know, where spies frequently hang out and have, you know, have lunch, he has a heart attack or whatever.

[01:01:16] Alex Tsakiris: He starts stumbling towards the door. He realizes pretty quickly or suspects pretty quickly that he has been poisoned. He collapses, he immediately leaves his body. He’s outside his body, he’s looking down. They get him in a Jeep Theysome, they get him to an ambulance. He has a near death experience. And we’re gonna talk about this more later.

[01:01:37] Alex Tsakiris: He is able to distinguish between a near-death experience, remote viewing and an out-of-body experience. And in fact, if anyone cares to look on that very important remote viewing of Mars session that you’re talking about, he prefaces that by saying, you know, I really enjoyed my time at the Monroe Institute and I learned about out-of-body travel.

[01:01:59] Alex Tsakiris: And I think it’s a different tool that can be used different ways. And I think remote viewing can be best in these situations and out-of-body can be used in this situation. But different kettle of fish when we talk about near-death experience, at least in his opinion. It is also interesting to me that when he goes to Sri Stanford Research Institute, Russell Targ, Hal Puthoff, to become part of the Stargate Project.

[01:02:25] Alex Tsakiris: I tell this story all the time cause it’s so meaningful to me. They pull a book out of his sealed, you know, private super secret personnel folder and they pull out Raymond Moody’s book a near death experience and Joe Mcon is like, you get it, I’m Somehow there’s some kind of connection. The CIA understands it, the sri guys understand it in. Layered birthday, cake of extended consciousness, realms of near death experience, realms, demons, God angels.

[01:02:59] Alex Tsakiris: There’s some kind of connection in these different realms. That’s gonna propel us into a whole, a whole different discussion, but I guess we stumbled into it, so let’s jump in.

[01:03:11] Jason Reza Jorjani: Sure. So, you know, I, I’ve read Ian Stevenson pretty extensively. I think that he has done excellent research on the spontaneous past life memories, , of small children.

[01:03:26] Jason Reza Jorjani: Of course, he’s passed on now, and I think there’s a guy, Jim Tucker, who’s continuing his research at the University of Virginia. So Ian Stevenson, you know, was the head of, , he’s a medical doctor, so it would’ve been the psychiatry program at the University of Virginia. And for decades, he studied these spontaneous, , past life recollections of small children.

[01:03:45] Jason Reza Jorjani: And I think among his most compelling cases are the ones where he correlates, , birthmarks and birth defects on these children to death wounds as documented in coroner’s reports. But where that intersects with N D E uh, research is that there are, I mean, look, Stevenson did voluminous research. His book Reincarnation and Biology is like a two volume study like this.

[01:04:11] Jason Reza Jorjani: Okay. And in the, in, although it wasn’t his main focus, in the course of these narratives, you do get accounts of people’s transition between death and their rebirth occasionally, and based on Stevenson’s research, which by the way took place mostly in small towns because it’s easy in small towns to track down coroners and to be able to, , correlate reports from a child with, , you know, , coroner’s reports because people in small towns tend to live there for their entire lives and die there.

[01:04:47] Jason Reza Jorjani: Right? So that’s a good, , research base

[01:04:50] Alex Tsakiris: and a lot in Sri Lanka and India as well as, Here in the States in

[01:04:55] Jason Reza Jorjani: Canada and other people ever Alaska, he study, you know, studied people all over the world. He has a whole book on just European cases. But my point is that he’s dealing with very ordinary people.

[01:05:04] Jason Reza Jorjani: Very ordinary people, okay. Not like people claiming to be Cleopatra or who have a cosmopolitan jet setting lifestyle or anything like that. And what I found based on looking into , Stevenson’s research, is that there appears to be a very natural process of death transition through what I think the Tibetans fairly accurately described as the bardo state and then rebirth.

[01:05:29] Jason Reza Jorjani: And this state between death and rebirth appears to have an intermingling of a dream-like quality to it, where internal psychological projections, anxieties, and complexes and concerns are intermingled with perceptions of the actual world. , and, you know, sometimes, let’s say a, a deceased person will fixate on either a family member or some stranger and follow that person through their life until ultimately they connect with that person, , to a depth of intimacy where they wind up, , being, , you know, ch choosing essentially that person as their future mother.

[01:06:14] Jason Reza Jorjani: And, and so anyway, my point is, There appears to be a natural process of, of death and rebirth. And I think to some extent, , traditional forms of mysticism like Tibetan Buddhism made a, a laudable attempt to grapple with that and to describe it in texts like the Tibetan Book of the Dead. All of that having been said, and going back to our earlier discussion about parapsychology and the technological singularity, I think it’s only reasonable to expect that a civilization, which for centuries or millennia has had singularity level technology will also develop what I call spectral technologies that are capable of interacting with human souls as if they’re energetic and infor informational matrices.

[01:07:11] Jason Reza Jorjani: And so I’m not saying in closer encounters that ets, I mean, first of all, I, I, again, for reasons like I just mentioned, I, I don’t like the term ets. Okay. Because I think a lot of these beings really represent another level of human civilization. In any case, I’m not saying that aliens or UFO knots or whatever are controlling the entire process of death and rebirth because there is this natural process that research like Stevenson’s reveals or that a lot of ND research reveals.

[01:07:41] Jason Reza Jorjani: But I do think that there are some evidence. For interference in the process of death and rebirth on the part of these technologically sophisticated beings. Uh, and I cite a number of cases of that drawing, mainly from the research of Raymond Fowler. Raymond Fowler, , was the, the guy who, , studied, , Betty, Andreas and Luca.

[01:08:02] Jason Reza Jorjani: And, you know, that’s a fascinating case, , the Andreasen affair, as he calls it, where you have this, uh, 1960s housewife who is abducted together with other members of her family by Grays, who then take her to meet tall blondes who claim to be angels and who tell her that Jesus Christ is gonna come back soon.

[01:08:27] Jason Reza Jorjani: And that the grays are basically like, , they’re watchers who work for Jesus and for God, and that their job is to manage basically the afterlife. And she’s told these things, , and she sees these beings go off toward what she describes as the one, uh, this light in that she’s never allowed to, to really, , approach to get closer to.

[01:08:51] Jason Reza Jorjani: , but she’s made to understand that this light, this one is going to soon send Jesus back into the world, and so on, so forth. Uh, and so then when you set this kind of a report, the, you know, the Andreason case next to reports of. Horrendous abuse of abductees by grays. Reports of grays appearing to work for the tall blonde Nordics as a kind of Android robot, some biomechanical robot, and reports of tall blonde Nordics terrorizing the hell out of poor Brazilians in the Amazon Basin Basin in the 1970s.

[01:09:30] Jason Reza Jorjani: A very sinister picture emerges of entities who are at least interfering on some level in our process of death and rebirth. And just before, before you, you know, you, you comment on that. One other line of evidence that I, , investigate in relation to this in closer encounters is the efficacy of astrology, which I have always found profoundly disturbing because it doesn’t make any sense to me how something like astrology could work at all.

[01:10:02] Jason Reza Jorjani: , I make an argument in closer encounters for how it may be a system that was set up in order to influence human personality and society on a large scale, , and set up namely by these beings who also have it in their power to interfere in the afterlife, potentially also by, in part, attempting to determine the time of someone’s rebirth and the types of astrological influence that are gonna be brought to bear on shaping that person’s life.

[01:10:27] Alex Tsakiris: Okay. Super important stuff. Let me again, bring people. Back to the book, pay attention to the book. Read the book. Page 2 39 of Closer Encounters. Jason says, at the very least, which to me is the operative phrase, but we’ll get to that in a minute. It appears that there is a psychotronic technology that allows the beings behind closer encounters to cut into the process of death, the afterlife and reincarnation.

[01:10:58] Alex Tsakiris: I think we just talked about that. So there’s no need to rehash that, just a, as a point of reference. Again, return to the book because that’s the way that that’s treated to me. Again, I I, I kind of say, like you say like some super important phrases there. At the very least. Yes, agreed. I think you make the case very convincingly that there is some kind of ability and, and you’re making the case one step further.

[01:11:28] Alex Tsakiris: You’re making the case of here is evidence of this interference and then you’re making some very well supported speculation about how that would be a natural consequence of moving towards this , technological singularity so people can agree or not disagree with that. But you’re kind of putting the pieces together again in this philosophical way that is kind of hard to, to push back against.

[01:11:53] Alex Tsakiris: But I will try cause couple interesting things. The near death experience to me. And we had a nice little email exchange about this because I, I, I’ve been playing around in kind of a, a cheeky way of saying, you know, the, the only question that matters is, does ET have an N D E? So the idea being if there are these layers of consciousness, can they be thought of in some kind of hierarchical structure?

[01:12:24] Alex Tsakiris: And at the high point of that structure, is there something like God, is there something at least like a moral imperative, like a right and a wrong? So here are a couple of data points that I would throw on the table with regard to that. If you go look at, , the largest collection of scientifically studied near-death experiences at the near-Death Experience Research Foundation, Dr.

[01:12:51] Alex Tsakiris: Jeff Long, who’s been on the show multiple times, and I really pushed him as a scientist cuz he’s, he’s, uh, a radiation oncologist, but he’s also a scientist. He’s qualified, he’s not a, a nutty guy, the least. And the last time he was on, I said, look, Jeff, is there any scrubbing of this data, any recasting of it to make?

[01:13:09] Alex Tsakiris: And he’s like, absolutely not. That would just, we’re talking about PMH a minute ago. He’s just like, clearly understands the line, like you just cannot do any of that. Or the whole thing is flush down the toilet and the means that he’s using. A lot of people don’t understand. Medical surveys are kind of the foundation of a lot of medicine that we have.

[01:13:27] Alex Tsakiris: You know, like, are you depressed? Are you in grief? Are you, all these things we have to go and ask people. It’s not like we can just stick a needle in you and measure these things. So there is a reliable way because we’ve been at it for so long to ask people about their experience and then have some confidence that there are telling you the truth.

[01:13:45] Alex Tsakiris: Here’s what comes through in Jeff’s work that a lot of people don’t appreciate, but if you just talk to Jeff, he’ll tell you the number one experience of the near death experience or is love. I’m not making it up. It’s not tunnels, it’s not meeting relatives, it’s not, all those things happen, but they don’t happen at nearly the percentage you would think.

[01:14:06] Alex Tsakiris: It’s, it’s, it’s not a high percentage. The love thing is in the nineties. It’s over the top , so I think that’s super important as we kind of process it. So that, that’s, that’s one point I guess that I just kind of threw on the table. Think about and add it to whatever you’d like to, however you’d like to respond. But the other thing that I think is interesting, cause I read this in Closer Encounters and it kind of struck me as, , kind of, I have a different opinion on it.

[01:14:35] Alex Tsakiris: And that’s the Life Review, which I think is a super important of this phenomenon as we understand it, which again, is kind of in this very limited smokey way that we’re trying to look at it. But invariably, the thing that comes through in the Life Review is that the Life Review is , your soul reviewing your life, re-experiencing how it fits into the, , connection with all the other people you’ve encountered.

[01:15:03] Alex Tsakiris: Now, that is not to say that, like, again, back to you’re, you’re bringing such good stuff forward cuz you’re saying, okay, Alex fine. But here are some cases where that’s not happening. Where the Life Review is some freaking alien sitting there and trying to make you feel this way or that way in order to shape your soul’s future direction.

[01:15:22] Alex Tsakiris: I’m not saying that hasn’t happened or does happen, but I’m saying that overwhelmingly what is coming back is that the Life Review is a process that as it’s understood, is your soul Reexamining your process of learning.

[01:15:36] Jason Reza Jorjani: I think there is a number of issues here. One is that even the data that we do have is, it’s a little bit all over the place. I mean, there are definite trends and tendencies, but as you said yourself, there are exceptions. I mean, there are cases where the life review takes place with a board of elders who are described as sort of sacious guides.

[01:15:57] Jason Reza Jorjani: And, , in one of the interviews that you did with, with, , a number of ND researchers, which you sent to me, there was this whole description of, , the conductor who came into a hospital room, , when a dying person was trying to interact with two of his deceased relatives. And this conductor appeared to be in control of shepherding this person through the afterlife.

[01:16:24] Jason Reza Jorjani: And that kind of thing, uh, gives me the creeps. Uh, because you see our contact entities that want to manipulate you aren’t going to put you in a state of fear and terror if you want, if, if they want you to go along with them, they’re going to produce euphoric states. Lower your guard and make you amenable to suggestion.

[01:16:50] Jason Reza Jorjani: And so, you know, at the risk of, of sounding like a terrible cynic and, and pessimist, , I think it’s possible for states that someone might describe ecstatic states that someone might describe as love and a sense of being totally embraced and so on and so forth to be produced. , and one very interesting commentary on this is from Guam Buddha.

[01:17:11] Jason Reza Jorjani: I used to, back in the days when I, I was a, you know, a teaching philosophy. , I used to also teach a course on early Buddhism, and you find in the sermons of Guam Buddha, the Theravada, you know, the old oldest, uh, sermons of Guam, Buddha, these, , long passages where Guam is talking about how the gods, the Davis manipulate people’s states of mind in order to perpetuate certain fixations and delusions.

[01:17:42] Jason Reza Jorjani: And so there’s such a thing in the course of, you know, yogic meditation called a or a point of focus that produces a certain state of mind and brings you to certain johanna’s, certain state elevated, uh, dimensions of being. And gut’s point is that these drans do focus the mind and they can bring you to, , what’s described as, what’s the term they use in consciousness.

[01:18:08] Jason Reza Jorjani: , you, you know, like an elevated state of consciousness. There’s a specific term for, it’s escaping me right now, , Samati. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that’s the Sanskrit term for it. Oh. But there’s, this is discussed a lot in consciousness studies these days. Oh. Uh, basically an altered state of consciousness that’s very ecstatic.

[01:18:24] Jason Reza Jorjani: Right? And Gutta says, yes, you can produce these states through focus on ideas like Brahman and the state of consciousness you achieve through that appears to validate the point of focus. But actually the whole thing is a projection. And one of the things that Tibetan Buddhist are really good at is deliberately creating these projections as like mandalas and dt uh, dts for guided meditation and so forth, which you construct and then deconstruct.

[01:18:56] Jason Reza Jorjani: And they serve a certain purpose in the transformation of consciousness. And so now that’s all very positive. And, uh, you know, part of like a a, an individual or, you know, group spiritual practice or potentially could be positive, right? But what I’m suggesting is that imagine beings with much more advanced technology, including psychical technology, using the same kind of focusing and manipulation of states of mind to give people the impression that there is this all encompassing love and affirmation and so on and so forth, which is coming from some source or one that ought to be trust.

[01:19:36] Jason Reza Jorjani: as the authorizing agency behind these emissaries that are guiding them through the afterlife. So, so, but that’s one thing I have to say. Now, there’s another thing in an sort of the opposite direction that I have to say that’s actually a very important theme in closer encounters, and it’s where the book ends.

[01:19:55] Jason Reza Jorjani: And that’s although I deploy a scathing argument against the idea of an all knowing and all powerful God, n not mainly in this book, but actually in other writings of mine, I have attacked that from all kinds of angles, especially in terms of the various ways in which it makes free will impossible on a logical level.

[01:20:19] Jason Reza Jorjani: Although I reject this idea of an, an all-knowing and an all powerful God, and my critiques of it are in, in some ways very much, uh, run parallel to Goma Buddha’s critiques of the idea of Brahman. I do affirm the, let’s say, probable existence of some kind of superhuman cosmic intelligence, which does have something like what you are calling a moral imperative.

[01:20:47] Jason Reza Jorjani: I prefer not to put it in those terms, but a kind of categorical imperative, let’s say. And as I argue in, in closer encounters, this superhuman intelligence, which I called the Promethean, the Aon of Prometheus or forethought. The Aon characterized by the quintessential characteristic of Prometheus. This superhuman cosmic intelligence, in my view, has as its categorical imperative, the furtherance of creativity, innovation, and, uh, basically progress on a cosmic level.

[01:21:27] Jason Reza Jorjani: This is a, a kind of, of cosmic intelligence that going all the way back to ancient Iranian writings, Zarathustra, uh, called minu, the spirit of progress or, , innovation. And he identified it as the chief characteristic or primary quality of a Mazda, the, , the Lord of wisdom.

[01:21:49] Jason Reza Jorjani: Okay? And so I affirm that there is that kind of intelligence behind, , a whole plethora of close encounters, that what we’re dealing with here are not just nuts and bolts, UFOs and, you know, Nordic U F O pilots or Android grays who are working for them. We’re also dealing with a genuinely non-human intelligence that’s operating at a cosmic level and whose purpose is to catalyze further human evolution.

[01:22:20] Jason Reza Jorjani: And in my argument and closer encounters, I say this super intelligence. Is operating across purposes to, , the people abducting and, and, and mutilating and, you know, so on and so forth, mutilating cattle and, , attempting to deploying various machinations to basically exert our content control over human society.

[01:22:41] Jason Reza Jorjani: That these are two counter forces involved in producing the wide variety of phenomena that we see in, , closer encounters. And I attempt to tease apart the different types of manifestations and what their source may be and which ones, , may be traceable back to this, , Promethean as I call it, this cosmic intelligence.

[01:23:04] Jason Reza Jorjani: So I hope that went some ways toward answering, you know, that question or responding. Oh

[01:23:09] Alex Tsakiris: yes, absolutely. Cause now you’re talking about mind of God, which is tricky, right? . Cause how are we gonna know?

[01:23:15] Jason Reza Jorjani: I don’t, I don’t like to call it that, you know, but, but yeah. A God, I suppose you could say lowercase g , a a superhuman cosmic intelligence, I do think is involved in some aspects of close encounters.

[01:23:27] Jason Reza Jorjani: And I, I discuss it at length, especially in the last chapter of closer encounters. Yeah.

[01:23:33] Alex Tsakiris: Although you’re, you’re casting it one way, which is reasonable and you’re, again, consistent in the way that you do it. You know, you could kind of look at it from another perspective too, which is that take. accounts that I just said in terms of near death experience and kind of take them more directly and also take the yogic kind of thing and the samati kind of thing.

[01:23:55] Alex Tsakiris: And even at a very basic level of meditation, which is to, , cease the disturbance of the mind, right? So, which anyone can do right now, you can stop thinking. And a lot of people experiencing that state of meditation, a form of bliss or at least a form of relaxation, which is counter to the idea that this mind and all these machinations and all this sinister stuff we have to do is really what the game is about.

[01:24:21] Alex Tsakiris: So without saying that, you know, that is kind of more where I come down, but again, it’s now kind of a mind of God kind of thing. And which game do you wanna play? Let me ask you a related question to that. How are you understanding those, , layers of the consciousness cake? I mean, you kind of described it maybe at the, the whole cake, you know, which is kind of the God, but, , we do see, , sinister forces, you know, are they down below or up above are angels?

[01:24:51] Alex Tsakiris: Are we in that range? Some of these ets look and we’re gonna talk about ET in a minute. Cause I think that’s the appropriate term. And I understand, I appreciate why you don’t, or again, what you said, which is really important. Let me. Majority, importantly, you said the majority of encounters you believe are not what would typically be called extraterrestrial, but perhaps, you know,

[01:25:12] Jason Reza Jorjani: time slip all the rest of the Well, I mean, they’re extraterrestrial in the sense that if they’re coming from bases on Mars, that’s extraterrestrial.

[01:25:18] Jason Reza Jorjani: True, true. Most people understand et to mean like from another star system or another galaxy. Right. And I think we’re dealing with something that’s a lot, a lot closer to home in, in a really disturbing way. And,

[01:25:30] Alex Tsakiris: and yes, and I guess your point, really important point, but you also threw in the majority, so that’s the word I’m gonna pick on, on a minute.

[01:25:37] Alex Tsakiris: But before that I wanna return you

[01:25:38] Jason Reza Jorjani: to this. I would be, I would be devastated if there were no ETS here. You know, I, I’m pretty sure that there are, in other words, like totally alien beings from other star systems and so

[01:25:46] Alex Tsakiris: forth. Okay. That’s a really important point. I’m glad you said it that directly. What about, , extended consciousness realms?

[01:25:52] Alex Tsakiris: What are your thoughts about, , demonic realms? What people typically call lower realms? , that kind of level of influence and then the extended realms on the positive, you know, which are the, the de the deceased, which seem to occupy a certain realm if you’re gonna go this way, which I, I don’t know. I, I kind of favor that because it does seem to come through again and then above that are kind of something more angelic and above that or, you know, or, or above and then, you know, et somehow fitting into that.

[01:26:24] Alex Tsakiris: Any thoughts?

[01:26:26] Jason Reza Jorjani: Yeah, sure. , to a great extent. My ontology and epistemology is parallel to early Buddhist philosophy, and it’s entirely consistent with that ontology, with that, that theory of knowledge and that understanding of nature of reality to, , accept the existence of realms or dimensions of conscious experience and perception other than the ordinary one.

[01:26:59] Jason Reza Jorjani: And I’m trying to, and other than this

[01:27:00] Alex Tsakiris: time space too, right? Because all these are outside of time

[01:27:03] Jason Reza Jorjani: space, right? I’m trying to use language very carefully because what I do reject is nasic dualism of any kind. I, I mean, it’s fundamental to my entire philosophical project and specifically my concept of the spectral revolution to deconstruct all binaries of the type of matter versus spirit and so on and so forth.

[01:27:22] Jason Reza Jorjani: I think that these categories are constructed by limit. on our perception and our conceptualization, in some cases, engineered limits on our perception and conceptualization. And so I don’t think that there’s a spiritual world separate from the physical world, but I think that depending on what filters are operating in our mind, we are only able to perceive certain dimensions of existence.

[01:27:50] Jason Reza Jorjani: And that it’s possible for someone in a disembodied state to spend long periods of time in other dimensions of existence. Right? I mean, we know from, uh, hauntings that there are people who wind up remaining in a physical location for a very long period of time that seems indiscernible to them. , and so why would it not be the case that someone could remain for a long time in some other dimension of existence after death and before rebirth?

[01:28:25] Jason Reza Jorjani: And I think that, you know, Buddhist texts describe these more heavenly realms or more hellish realms that, you know, one could transit through, uh, on the way from death through eventual rebirth. So all of that makes sense to me. My problem with language like demonic versus angelic and all that, which again sets up another or affirms another binary is.

[01:28:50] Jason Reza Jorjani: My bottom line is not good versus evil. I, I accept nisha’s critique of the binary of good versus evil. One man’s good is another man’s evil. And if you want to read the Old Testament with anything like a conscience, you have to conclude that Yahweh is absolutely evil. If you wanna think into those terms, which I don’t, that’s, well, he is, I mean, that’s no question.

[01:29:10] Jason Reza Jorjani: Well, here, here’s what I have to say. I, I, I don’t think in terms of good and evil, I think in terms of constructive and creative and conducive to the flourishing of the individual and the further evolution of the human person or not, I think that the binary that Zarathustra set up is a much more, if we’re gonna think in terms of binaries, the one that Zarathustra set up is much more constructive than anything we get from Judeo Christianity or Islam or maybe even Hinduism.

[01:29:38] Jason Reza Jorjani: And that’s zarathustra’s, , dichotomy of the progressive mentality or mentality of creativity and innovation. Se minu versus the, the constrained mentality. The constricted mind, the retarding mind, which he called and later in middle Persian was shortened to . And so, This, I think is the real opposition.

[01:30:04] Jason Reza Jorjani: And we can evaluate different dimensions of existence and the type of beings that may be operative there in terms of this dichotomy of whether they are, , attempting to catalyze further human evolution and the development of the person, or whether they’re attempting to control and manipulate and retard, or restrain or constrain in some way, the human person and deprive the human person of his personhood.

[01:30:28] Jason Reza Jorjani: In other words, they’re forces of dehumanization, right, that are inhuman and trying to basically lower us into something subhuman that they can more effectively control that, that, and see, I don’t see that as evil. I see it the way it’s like a disease or a parasite or something like that. I have a, I’m very much an empiricist, I’m a radical empiricist.

[01:30:51] Jason Reza Jorjani: And so I think about these forces, the way that we think about diseases or parasites in nature. They’re bad for us. They exist. They’re out there. They’re part of, you know, nature, the cosmos, whatever. I don’t wanna be near them. They’re bad for us.

[01:31:09] Alex Tsakiris: Y you know, this is, uh, this is excellent and very nuanced in a way that I think people could spend a lot of time on your work and not understand what you’re talking about.

[01:31:21] Alex Tsakiris: Because I, , I got a hint of that. That was your position, but it wasn’t even crystal clear to me until this time. , I kind of think there’s a little bit of potential for loss and translation thing to be going on here in terms of what normal people experience, even very smart intellectual people, you know, experience.

[01:31:45] Alex Tsakiris: So we’re talking about Pmh before we hit this recording because you are so fantastic and so brilliant, brilliant. You are that you have kind of, ever since I ran across your work, I was inspired to go revisit some of my beliefs, which I think is wonderful. That’s what I love to do. I love to challenge my own beliefs and I said I have to go back.

[01:32:05] Alex Tsakiris: He’s referencing PMH to pm M h Atwater, the near-death experience researcher. Did she really say that? And it kind of went in a different direction than I thought, but it did. And the other person I recontacted that I want to talk to you about is Mary Rodwell, because I think she’s super important in terms of direct experiences with, , people who’ve had these kind of encounters.

[01:32:26] Alex Tsakiris: , but one thing that does come out of P M H, and I wanna read this cause whenever we talk about evil, and I wrote a book, why Evil Matters, which is not inconsistent with what you’re saying, , because my point was how, how can we not talk about evil? How can we shelve it over on this side and say, oh, it’s the evil is only a social construct.

[01:32:47] Alex Tsakiris: Maybe, oh, evil is here. It’s in the Bible, in scripture. That’s the only way we, okay. Maybe , maybe we need to talk about it in another way. So I I, I always like kind of the, it’s so frustrating when I talk to people and I to say what you said, I, I, I can’t go there cuz it doesn’t hit people where they live. I usually go with examples of, uh, satanic ritual abuse and I head on this woman who, and I always reference her on the show, and she was part of the dut six years old, sold into a sex cult, uh, a Satanic sex cult, six years old.

[01:33:22] Alex Tsakiris: You know, so it, it drives everyone. They go, okay, I get it evil. I don’t, I don’t give a shit, you know, whatever you wanna call it. That’s evil. Pmh had another level of this that I wanna read to you, cuz I think it’s so super significant and then we can process it given this latest kind of conversation we’ve had.

[01:33:42] Alex Tsakiris: One of the people that P m H interviews as part of the, her latest book is this woman who is born into, , a Satanic cult.

[01:33:51] Alex Tsakiris: And here’s what she says. I now know I came into this life to shift the consciousness of my biological family and the members of the cult. I was shown that as they performed the rituals, I was in a protective bubble. And I could see that by being in their presence, their heart chakra was ignited. What was dark before now ignited to the eternal flame of their heart and their connection with the Divine source.

[01:34:23] Alex Tsakiris: Whether this changed them or not, I don’t know. And , I no longer have contact with these people in any way. This is, this is in some ways kind of challenging , some of your conclusions. And it’s kind of more where I live. Like, I don’t know, I don’t want to believe this, like literally, but I kind of think metaphorically, it kind of hits, homed me more in a way that might be true.

[01:34:50] Alex Tsakiris: Might explain, , that this state of confusion, if you will, if you’re gonna talk about it from this kind of Buddhist kind of way that they, I think that’s what they say. Same thing. There’s no evil per se, it’s kind of confusion and lack of knowledge. , how does that, how does that strike you? Any

[01:35:06] Jason Reza Jorjani: thoughts on that?

[01:35:08] Jason Reza Jorjani: Yeah. , actually, I kind of disagree with the Buddhist on this. I, I agree and disagree. Okay. I agree. With their critique of evil as any kind of absolute. , but you know, you know, actually it’s not even faithful to Goma to say that they don’t believe in manipulative, sort of what you characterize earlier as demonic entities, because Goma talks plenty about these.

[01:35:31] Jason Reza Jorjani: And matter of fact, he says that the Davis shouldn’t be worshiped because they’re extremely manipulative. And in fact, they can be really terrible sadists, you know, like Zeus on Olympus going down and raping human women under various disguises and pulling the puppet strings of whoever, you know, whatever poor human he wants to make miserable on any given day for his own amusement.

[01:35:53] Jason Reza Jorjani: Right? So I think that that’s true of, uh, some of the beings behind the close encounter phenomenon. My problem with this whole discourse of Satanic is that look, Satan has a meaning, okay? It is, it has a literary and, , Cultural, historical meaning, which was constructed by the Bible. And when you go back to the bi, and by the way, I used to teach the, believe it or not, I used to teach the Bible.

[01:36:20] Jason Reza Jorjani: I taught comparative religion. And I, and you can really see this in chapter six of Closer Encounters, chapter six of Closer Encounters is nearly a hundred pages, and it’s a pretty rigorous contribution to theology. , and I really go chapter and verse, so the Old Testament and the New Testament, and the problem with this whole discourse of the Satanic as demonic and so on and so forth, is that if you read the Bible with, again, anything like a conscience, like the kind of conscience that Tom Payne had, you have to come to the conclusion that from a literary standpoint at least, Satan is the hero.

[01:36:57] Jason Reza Jorjani: When you start from the serpent in the Garden of Eden, offering the fruit of knowledge to humanity and saying, this Yahweh character is a liar to the fallen angels teaching humanity to rebel against these overlords, right? , which is absolutely the same myth as the Atlantis myth that Plato provides us with, or that you find in any number of other cultures, Mayan culture and so forth.

[01:37:20] Jason Reza Jorjani: A myth about an attempted human empowerment and self-determination meeting with vengeance from the gods who wanted to keep us down as a race of slaves or as kind of basically a species of. . And then you go onto the attempt to build the Tower of Babbel after that, which seems to have been a second human attempt at self-determination, right?

[01:37:43] Jason Reza Jorjani: , you know, we have this Tower of Babbel, which was a cosmopolitan project where everyone spoke the same language and humans understood each other. And this Yahweh comes down and confuses our language and sets us all at war with one another, divides us into various warring tribes and so forth.

[01:37:57] Jason Reza Jorjani: And you just keep going through example after example, the the Israelite genocide that took place at Jericho. And the way in which, if you look again at the details, you see an account of Joshua being directly, , guided by the, , commander of the Lord’s army who comes out of something like A U F O.

[01:38:18] Jason Reza Jorjani: And the, and the arc of the covenant is used as a technological device to bring down the walls of Jericho and so on and so forth. And all the way through the book of Ezekiel, you, you get a, a monstrous image of this God who in the Book of Job basically says to job, listen, the reason that I have done this to you is because I can.

[01:38:39] Jason Reza Jorjani: And I don’t need any justification for my actions. And then you go to the gospels, and again, the devil is in the details here. Read chapter six of Closer Encounters out of one side of his. Jesus talks about love and compassion and, you know, , non-judgment and, , preachers, communism and so on and so forth.

[01:39:01] Jason Reza Jorjani: Out of the other side of his mouth, Jesus says he’s come to affirm the law and the prophets, not a dot of an I or a cross of a t of the law, and the prophets will be invalidated until the judgment, at which point Jesus will sit with the elders of Israel as a judge over hu humanity. , and you know, he, , he basically, he even supposedly had former prophets with him in this luminous aerial conveyance that he would ride around in as if it was a taxi.

[01:39:31] Jason Reza Jorjani: And his followers claim to have seen Moses and Elijah together with Jesus. So he’s very clearly identifying himself as a prophet in the Abrahamic line in service to Yahweh. And I discuss in closer encounters how I think what’s going on here with this dichotomy in Jesus is an attempt to create cognitive dissonance and to produce a kind of Stockholm syndrome where you are through this whole discourse of love and compassion and so forth, you are being brought to embrace your oppressor.

[01:40:02] Jason Reza Jorjani: And so my problem to go back to your question with framing the Satanic. That’s something that has to do with child abuse, child molestation, and ri ritual. Uh, no, no, no.

[01:40:16] Alex Tsakiris: The way you, the way you framed it is perfect, right? It’s this desire to control this sinister evil kind of thing that pops up again and again, I

[01:40:25] Jason Reza Jorjani: think.

[01:40:25] Jason Reza Jorjani: Correct. Well, that’s not, see, that’s the God of the Bible. Well, and the hero who stands against that in the Bible is Satan. Now, I, I am not a satanist. If I wanted to be a satanist, I would call my movement, I don’t know, philosophical satanism or something. There’s a reason I focus on Prometheus, because Prometheus is a positive symbol.

[01:40:45] Jason Reza Jorjani: And the various episodes in the Prometheus myth and the various qualities of this archetype are all very positive. But there’s no question that if you try to look at Prometheus through a Christian or a Muslim lens, Prometheus from their perspective is Satan. So, you know, that’s, I think, uh, uh, you know, a, a legitimate point that, you know, you, you’ve, you can look at, you can look at the Satanic panic of the 1980s and all of these cases of abuse, some of which may well have taken place, others of which are products of hysteria.

[01:41:19] Jason Reza Jorjani: And you can allow Satan to be defined by that. Or you can allow Satan to be defined by, I don’t know, centuries of romantic, , and, and mystical writers like Shelley, uh, and Byron. And so, Going all the way back to Milton who understood Satan to be a Judeo-Christian. Prometheus. Prometheus, seen through a Judeo-Christian lens.

[01:41:43] Alex Tsakiris: I gotcha. It’s super important stuff. I mean, we could spend a ton, a ton of time on that and we might, we might come back and and do exactly that cuz it is so important. One of the problems I have with where you’re going with Prometheus and where you’re going with Satan, of course I say Satan because

[01:42:03] Alex Tsakiris: it’s where people live, right? It’s where people live, what they understand in kind of a colloquial way, in the same way that we talk about et. And sometimes to break out of that pattern creates more confusion than it does. And

[01:42:16] Jason Reza Jorjani: it’s like, so be it. So be it though. See, well, but so be it.

[01:42:19] Alex Tsakiris: Except that this is also how the social engineers, , manipulate us as well.

[01:42:25] Alex Tsakiris: I mean, turning all the way back to why the transition from UFO to uap? Because it’s so much more clear with uap. No, it’s when you change the language, you then send everyone on on like, oh, they’re talking about UAPs. I don’t anything about UAPs. Well, that’s the same as UFOs. Oh, I know about you.

[01:42:43] Alex Tsakiris: So it’s the same thing. So we’re talking about Satan, we’re talking about evil. Well, no, we’re not really talking about that. We’re talking about Promethean, you know, versus this. And then it’s like, oh, I don’t know shit about that. You know what I mean? So there is, there’s both both parts of that. If we’re gonna communicate and, and try and reach people and pull ’em into the conversation, you know, we’re, we’re gonna have to be a little bit sloppy with the language.

[01:43:04] Alex Tsakiris: But, yeah, you had a point on that. And then I, I want to kind of talk about the, the, the,

[01:43:09] Jason Reza Jorjani: another area of my research is Iranian studies. I immunology, I, I almost went to get a PhD in that instead of in philosophy at one point I was really seriously debating going into Iranian studies. And so I’ve written this book, Iranian Leviathan, which is a whole tone, you know, on, on the history of Iran, but also an interpretation.

[01:43:28] Jason Reza Jorjani: Iranian philosophy and, and philosophy. And it’s very clear when you look at the conditions under which the Old Testament was written, that the , the entire TaNaK, including the prophets, that the concept of Satan was derived from the Zoroastrian or mythic idea of riman. Now, as I was saying earlier in our conversation, Riman has all the qualities of Yahweh or of some of these manipulative, you know, ancient Hindu gods, an Indra, whatever, or Zeus in the Olympian Pantheon, and the force opposed to Ariman, namely Mazda has all the qualities of Prometheus.

[01:44:13] Jason Reza Jorjani: In fact, the name a Mazda means Titan of wisdom. And there’s all kinds of ways in which the association with fire and so forth, it’s clear that there’s a, a cultural connection between these two images, these two icons. And so it’s, it’s an, it’s a travesty for people to call, uh, Satan, right? I mean, uh, or, or rather to brand, , you know, to, to like, okay, if Ariman is where the idea of Satan came from and Ariman is the God of the Bible, we then how are you then framing Satan against that?

[01:44:53] Jason Reza Jorjani: That is sat. That’s the original Satan. Good point. Okay. So, so I’m trying to deconstruct this false narrative. That’s what I’m trying to do. And I’m using tactics of the kind that Nietzsche used very provocative tactics to break people out of a false narrative, to get them to shift their perspective. And I’m well aware that I’m not gonna reach 95% of people.

[01:45:15] Jason Reza Jorjani: I’m not trying to, that’s talking. No.

[01:45:18] Alex Tsakiris: So , so we’re, we’re, let’s come back to that on, on, on another episode because you have so much to bring to the table there that we need to talk about because, but I’m gonna tee up a couple of things just so people know where I’m coming from and if they listen to a lot of the shows, they, they probably do.

[01:45:36] Alex Tsakiris: But one, like you talk about Constantine , but you kind of get the story wrong. It’s not that Constantine had a vision and put a cross on the shields of his warriors before they took the bridge and recaptured Rome. They made that fucking story up. He, what he did was, he was never Christian. He wasn’t about that.

[01:45:56] Alex Tsakiris: Right? So, and the way we know that is you go look at the Archer Constant Team, which is still in Rome. There’s no crosses on that. They’re all taking the bridge. There’s no crosses. There’s no Christian iconography anywhere on it. So what that points to is that. There’s strong evidence that the Romans were super smart about social engineering way back, and they’re doing it all over the place.

[01:46:17] Alex Tsakiris: So most of this stuff comes from Josephus. Most of the history we have, not just my history, your history, our history, all the history comes from Josephus, go to Josephus, 4.5, 0.6. I always point people too. There’s Josephus saying, I’m talking about siop. Josephus says, Hey, I’m with this guy, I’m with, , Titus.

[01:46:37] Alex Tsakiris: And he is, he is Messiah. And you know what? I’m Jew. I’m super Jew. As a matter of fact, he says, Josephus says, I’m super Jew. I’m, you know, above, I was teaching the rabbis. I was that the temple when I was 14 and they were down at my feet listening to the lessons. So I know this stuff. You know what you guys, all of us, we misinterpreted the word.

[01:47:00] Alex Tsakiris: The word was that this guy Titus, is really going to be the Messiah and get on board with this. It’s a direct SIOP to try and, and the only re so it doesn’t work for whatever reason, but why would we think that Christianity isn’t just a reboot of that siop? To me, it seems like that’s the best evidence for that’s what it is.

[01:47:22] Alex Tsakiris: You make , a good case for that. And you have a lot, the, the nian, uh, NRES and the cult and you know, all that kind of stuff. So we’re, I’m gonna tee that. and you can add a little bit if you want to. You can add as much as you want to it. But I think that’s like another show because the other part I wanna bring into that ch almost gonna tee it up, is what you importantly bring up, and I am for the most part ignorant of, is when you start looking at other cultures, , then the whole thing shifts again.

[01:47:56] Alex Tsakiris: Because you made a great point, which is like, yeah, Alex, I get it. We gotta talk to people where they’re at in terms of Satan. But when they totally get it reversed, , then we have to kind of call time out. That doesn’t really qualify either. So will you come back and we do that

[01:48:10] Jason Reza Jorjani: show? Oh, absolutely.

[01:48:12] Jason Reza Jorjani: So, so basically you’re talking about the construction of Christianity, like,

[01:48:16] Alex Tsakiris: and, and all those, all, all the religions that So influence and, and how they fit in this spectrum, what we’re we’re talking about.

[01:48:23] Jason Reza Jorjani: Yeah. Religion and so comparative religion and social engineering that absolutely, that’s a fascinating subject with which much of my work is concerned, including like Iranian Leviathan at length.

[01:48:33] Jason Reza Jorjani: I get into that subject there. Uh, okay,

[01:48:36] Alex Tsakiris: so let me try and wrap up this one because there’s a couple really have

[01:48:40] Jason Reza Jorjani: one of course about Constantine. , my source for taking seriously the report of Constantine and his soldiers seeing the cross of light in the sky, , was actually, uh, Jacques Vals, I think it was his last book, the one he wrote with Chris aub.

[01:48:58] Jason Reza Jorjani: It’s called something like Wonders in the Sky or whatever. And this is one of the historical U f O accounts that he includes. Now, I don’t know, it could, it could well be that the whole account was manufactured

[01:49:09] Alex Tsakiris: and, and you know, I, I should add to that cuz that would be a, a a point to add to this entire interview that we talked about.

[01:49:16] Alex Tsakiris: So what, so, and, and I’m so glad you’re able to take that pushback like before when I said, Hey, maybe it’s this way and that way, but it doesn’t really, the, when we were talking about the Mars and it’s a million years, a hundred, 180 million years ago, well certainly that’s important, but the bigger picture is this and then we’re both able to agree.

[01:49:32] Alex Tsakiris: So many times I hear these discussions and it totally gets off off the rails

[01:49:36] Jason Reza Jorjani: because I’m a, I’m a philosopher, I’m not a ufologists or theoretician of, it. Doesn’t ma matter all that much to me, like , you know, the parameters of one or another data point. I wanna make sure I have good sources. I have a lot of thorough references in here, but I’m, after using these databases of empirical research for the purpose of elaborating certain philosophical concepts, it’s the concepts and the ideas that I’m after, uh, as a philosopher.

[01:50:07] Jason Reza Jorjani: So, yeah, I mean, sure we can debate the data. Beautifully,

[01:50:11] Alex Tsakiris: beautifully said. And I hope people appreciate the difference in that and how that kind of discourse just doesn’t make its way onto the stage Now. Like I said, everything is either, everything is either siloed. Opt psyop or some combination of both.

[01:50:28] Alex Tsakiris: I shouldn’t say everything cuz that’s it. But so much of it is, you know, when when do you hear people just say yeah, you know, I think, uh, it’s uh, I think that was a social engineering project. I think Jacque Vallee is wrong. Yeah. Yeah. I guess that could be a possibility. We can still move on with the discussion cuz it’s really not material to the main point.

[01:50:45] Alex Tsakiris: Here’s what is, , material to this discussion we’ve been having. And I wanna throw on the table cause I’m really interested in, in where you’re gonna go with this. So have you heard of the Dr. Edgar Mitchell foundation for research into extraterrestrials and extraordinary encounters? Free Ray Hernandez.

[01:51:05] Jason Reza Jorjani: Oh, okay. I was about to say I hadn’t, but then I have heard of Ray Hernandez and I was familiar with Edgar Mitchell’s old foundation. But this, this, no, I’ve, I’ve heard of Hernandez and I am familiar with, uh, what was the, the, the o older foundation that Edgar

[01:51:23] Alex Tsakiris: Oh there’s ions. He was originally part of Ions and that’s Gene Raden.

[01:51:27] Alex Tsakiris: Raden

[01:51:27] Jason Reza Jorjani: works. Right, right. So no, I’m not, I’m not familiar with this specific

[01:51:30] Alex Tsakiris: project. No. So Ray, who’s been on the show a couple times, interesting guy, lawyer by training, uh, I r s lawyer. Interesting enough. Careful what you say. , He starts having some extraordinary experiences, including some experiences in his house that involve, I thought, very curiously and, , I think approaching very verifiable where his wife is having an experience, a close encounter experience downstairs with the dog and they’re gonna be taking the dog to be put down the next day at the vet and comes down and the dog has been healed and is the light has healed The dog and his wife who is a Catholic is like this angel.

[01:52:12] Alex Tsakiris: The angel cured the dog and the dog is running around the house and the dog lives, I don’t know how long. The dog lives, a long time. Interestingly enough. Also see, and a lot of this stuff kind of supports where you’re going, where you’re taking these kind of experiences. Ray walks halfway down the stairs and then is told psychically, there’s nothing going on there.

[01:52:35] Alex Tsakiris: Go on upstairs and go to bed. So he has the thought. This isn’t coming from the outside. It is his thought, right? Planted thing that he should go upstairs and that is what he does. So, Is the first experience in a series of experiences. He has, uh, some of which are shared by like neighbors who are not family members, other are shared by people who are family members.

[01:52:59] Alex Tsakiris: This eventually leads him to the doorstep of Dr. Edgar Mitchell and he says, look, we have to study this. I’m a scientific guy. I’m not only a lawyer. I’m going for my PhD at Berkeley. We need to study this scientifically. They set up a, a scientific survey. I’ve interviewed a couple of people who are responsible for that.

[01:53:18] Alex Tsakiris: Bob Davis PhD, smart guy. You push him on the methodology used in the, in the scientific survey and he’s like, Hey, push all you want. Here’s the data here. Here’s why it’s valid to do it this way. Here’s how you ask the questions. All that these guys are not slouches. What comes through in their survey of people who have had these extraterrestrial encounters in a lot of ways support some of the things that you’re saying.

[01:53:46] Alex Tsakiris: Although they are heavily leaning towards the extraterrestrial, they’re saying no, they specifically came from P ladies. No, they should because,

[01:53:55] Jason Reza Jorjani: yeah, because the tall blondes told them that. Why would you believe that? Well,

[01:53:58] Alex Tsakiris: hold, hold on. I mean, you again, You can say that like in the same way that you can deconstruct the near death experience and say that, but I, I go back to, you know, alls you ever said was majority, right?

[01:54:13] Alex Tsakiris: So, majority. So I’m just picking on the percentage, you know what I mean? Yeah. And I’m saying it doesn’t necessarily even have to be a majority for everything you’re saying to be true. Like it could be, it could be 5%, the martians and the whole thing could

[01:54:29] Jason Reza Jorjani: still, it can be both. And too, I mean, they’re not mutually exclusive.

[01:54:33] Jason Reza Jorjani: We could have beings coming here from the plea at ease legitimately. And we could have people passing themselves off as that. I mean, absolutely. Absolutely. Look, and this is, , this is another subject that I treat, you know, fairly substantively in this book is the 1950s, uh, contactees. Yes. And, you know, they all dealt with these tall, blonde people and it’s clear that the tall blondes they were dealing with were incredibly deceptive and manipulative.

[01:55:00] Jason Reza Jorjani: And uh, it’s also clear that there’s an undertone of racism and fascism going on with George Hunt Williamson and George Adamski and these characters. So, you know, , does that mean that there’s really nobody here from the plea at East? No. Maybe there could be, but it could. I mean, that’s how PSYOPs are run disinformation is, you know, taking something true and spinning it a certain way or presenting yourself as something that is legit, but that you are.

[01:55:26] Jason Reza Jorjani: you know,

[01:55:26] Alex Tsakiris: perhaps. But that is the advantage we have on someone who using proper methods, and you would, since I’m hitting you with this, you would have to investigate and see if you agreed with their methodology. But when they’re broadly sampling a lot of people, then you can get more confidence that they are not just being kind of ushered into one way of thinking.

[01:55:49] Alex Tsakiris: Similarly, on the near death experience, and I gotta bring this up because I, I talked about it last time and I brought it up in the emails to you. You know, you look at Gregory Shushan, the Oxford guy, , or is it college London, I can’t remember, but looks at cross culture.

[01:56:05] Jason Reza Jorjani: He was Shushan, you sent me the interview.

[01:56:07] Jason Reza Jorjani: I, I was so near

[01:56:08] Alex Tsakiris: death experience. So again, this is a kind of a, a good scientific methodology to tease out, are we looking at some kind of mass deception? And it kind of looks less like that when you, the thing starts showing up across time, across cultures, you go, okay, I would lean a little bit more towards, I would lean, I would lean a little bit more towards that data up at a, in terms of credibility.

[01:56:30] Alex Tsakiris: So with that, let me throw the last piece on that pile there. And that’s the interview that came about because of our first one. And that’s my re-interview with Mary Rodwell, who I’ve talked to for the third time. And Mary Rodwell. Has had, , forensic hypnosis before that a registered nurse in, uh, in Australia, not a quacky person, you know, she’s a registered nurse, qualified, and all that gets into hypnosis, starts having, uh, sessions, healing sessions with people who’ve had encounters.

[01:57:02] Alex Tsakiris: Right? And her data over time collected now 3000 cases. Again, a lot of it supports exactly what you’re saying, but some of the conclusions she has are not one, many, many species, many, many agendas, many, many, , places. So even within species, multiple agendas, which why wouldn’t we expect that? Just looking at her own species.

[01:57:32] Alex Tsakiris: And the other thing she finds is multiple instances over time, and we’re talking a huge timeframe of genetic manipulation. I think she said at least 15. So we can ease off the idea that they came down and they zapped our gene. No, it’s ongoing. It’s this, it’s that, it’s different levels of sophistication in their technology and in their interface with us.

[01:57:58] Alex Tsakiris: To me

[01:57:59] Jason Reza Jorjani: that I read about that as well in closer encounters, the gen multiple phases of genetic manipulation over, you know, millions of years.

[01:58:08] Alex Tsakiris: But what she’s adding to it is from multiple sources. So

[01:58:12] Jason Reza Jorjani: it’s. That, that wouldn’t surprise me and the least, you know, I’m just going after parsimonious , theorization here.

[01:58:20] Jason Reza Jorjani: So there’s a kind of, , ACOMs razor type of approach here where I’m trying to get, as neat and parsimonious and explanation as possible. That doesn’t mean that the data isn’t a lot messier than that. And, and again, my primary motivation in how I’ve structured the meta hypothesis here is to use all this empirical data as raw material for discussing certain philosophical ideas.

[01:58:47] Jason Reza Jorjani: That’s really how I’m approaching it.

[01:58:50] Alex Tsakiris: Okay. I think it’s much more than that. I, I think it does all that and it does.

[01:58:54] Jason Reza Jorjani: Yeah. You can see it as a, as a very serious hypothesis for, uh, exactly those encounter phenomenon. It, the, the book definitely works on that level and on that level. All kinds of sub claims can be critiqued and tweaked, and variables can be removed and replaced.

[01:59:09] Jason Reza Jorjani: Then you can have a functional theory of, of close encounters. No doubt. And that was true of a lot of the Parapsychological material that I dealt with in Prometheus and Atlas Prometheus, and Atlas works as a treatise in parapsychology, but ultimately what it is, is a philosophical work. That’s, that’s my deeper aim in ambition there.

[01:59:26] Jason Reza Jorjani: Likewise, with this.

[01:59:27] Alex Tsakiris: That’s an incredible wrapup, that is an incredible way of stepping back from your work and, uh, kind of cashing in a way that really helps us understand it because I’m tempted to ask you to e expound on that in, in, in this way. Why choose, because you do like to poke , you know, you do

[01:59:49] Jason Reza Jorjani: like to Oh, yeah.

[01:59:50] Jason Reza Jorjani: Provocateur, no doubt. Provocateur

[01:59:52] Alex Tsakiris: extraordinaire. Why, why drive that one theory all the way through like you do? What are the advantages to doing that

[02:00:02] Jason Reza Jorjani: in the structure of scientific revolutions, Thomas Coon talks about the utility of the exclusiveness of paradigms.

[02:00:12] Jason Reza Jorjani: So the whole point of the structure of scientific revolutions is to show us that scientific theorization takes place in the context of these structures, these frameworks that are political to a great extent, namely paradigms, and how this limits our perception and it causes us to exclude a lot of data.

[02:00:32] Jason Reza Jorjani: Marginalize a lot of data. Right. But an interesting point, a and of course, What I’m advocating from Prometheus and Atlas onward is that we move to a post paradigmatic science. We move to a science where we recognize that theories are models and tools. They’re not objective representations of reality.

[02:00:52] Jason Reza Jorjani: And so it’s perfectly fine for us to work with multiple paradigm simultaneously, which appear to contradict each other because it’s not about coming up with one final paradigm that perfectly mirrors reality. It’s about being able to do different things technologically based on different paradigms. You know, like if you wanna develop atomic weapons, you use Einstein in physics.

[02:01:11] Jason Reza Jorjani: If you want to build zero point energy and you know, use it to power the world, you’re gonna have to use a different paradigm. It doesn’t mean one paradigm’s right, and the other one’s wrong. It means you can do different things with different toolkits. All of that having been said, there’s this one remark that Coon makes in the structure of scientific revolutions, uh, where he says that, you know, this exclusionary, , closed structure of the paradigm is very useful for scientific progress.

[02:01:36] Jason Reza Jorjani: You put out a very tight theory where all the pieces fit together, and it’s a very definitive, , approach to handling a database. And then you let others challenge it. And it’s in the dialectic between one theory and arrival theory that scientific progress takes place. So that’s partly why I did what I did, because, you know, the more coherent and cohesive my theory is.

[02:02:03] Jason Reza Jorjani: The more effective someone else will be in, , drawing contrasts with it, through elaborating a rival theory or rival hypotheses that then dialectically lead to an advance in knowledge.

[02:02:20] Alex Tsakiris: Beautifully said. So Jason, what’s going on in your world now? What are, what are you working on? What are you interested in?

[02:02:29] Alex Tsakiris: Have you moved away from this topic or is this still No. A major point for you?

[02:02:34] Jason Reza Jorjani: I haven’t moved away from it. I, I, , I’m finishing up a, uh, you know, I’ve written some fiction also. My book, fian Futurist and, uh, Uber man, the sequel to it deal with the close encounter phenomenon in the context of fiction.

[02:02:48] Jason Reza Jorjani: Of course, philosophical fiction, you know, I mean, I’m writing fiction the way that like SAR wrote fiction or that Nietzche wrote thus boar lustra, um, or, or camoos writings, for example. It’s still philosophy, but in the form of fiction and I, I’m finishing up another very slim volume this time of, uh, sort of philosophical science fiction.

[02:03:08] Jason Reza Jorjani: And it does deal extensively with, you know, the close encounter phenomenon and the entities behind.

[02:03:14] Alex Tsakiris: Beyond your books, how can people support your work support you do you do Patreon?

[02:03:19] Jason Reza Jorjani: . I have a Patreon. I can send you the link and you can link it in the description.

[02:03:23] Jason Reza Jorjani: That would be great. , so yeah, I do have a Patreon, but I don’t have any like a member exclusive content or anything. I’ve advertised my Patreon in videos that I’ve done, you know, at the end of the video. , but the main place I think people should look is actually my YouTube because I put out content there more regularly and, uh, you know, all my interviews are there and so forth.

[02:03:43] Jason Reza Jorjani: So yeah, my YouTube, , the Prometheam YouTube that is, and then the, uh, and my webpage, Jason reger johnny , dot com, which has links to my books and social media and so forth. Well,

[02:03:56] Alex Tsakiris: fantastic. It’s been absolutely great having you on, and I’m so glad that I kind of hooked you in for a third appearance, which we’ll have to schedule.

[02:04:06] Alex Tsakiris: I’m looking forward to that one too. Likewise.

[02:04:08] Jason Reza Jorjani: That’s, that’s a subject that’s been close to my heart for many years.


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