Bruce Fenton, A Better Human Origin Story |429|


Bruce Fenton uses solid science to back up his remarkable conclusions about the origin of humans.

photo by: Skeptiko

Alex Tsakiris: [00:00:00] Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers and their critics. I’m your host Alex Tsakiris and I have an interview coming up in a minute with this gentleman, you can see on the screen if you’re watching, his name is Bruce Fenton, and during the interview I’m going to do my best to shoot down his theories, I’ve lined up a couple of points. But I’ve got to warn you that at the end of the day, I’m going to probably have to admit that I can’t, and that’s a huge problem because what Bruce Fenton and his wife Daniella claim to have done with their research is nothing less than crack the code on human evolution, crack the code on our origins. And done it in a way that, I’ve got to say, will completely upset everything you think you know about the whole Out of Africa thing, the Darwin thing, and even more significantly the who we are, why are we here thing.

So, like I said, I’m going to plough forward, I’m going to do my best, but I just have to warn you, your world may shift rather radically about an hour, an hour and a half from now.

Bruce, welcome to Skeptiko, it’s been so great getting to know you and thanks so much for joining me.

Bruce Fenton: [00:01:35] Thank you, it’s a pleasure. I’m really looking forward to the chat and hopefully, yeah, everyone gets something out of it.


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Alex Tsakiris: [00:01:42] Great. Well, I’ve been leaving up on the screen this Skeptiko Jeopardy board, which is a little game I like to play, but let me back up and maybe you could give us a brief bio of you. We could go on and on, it’s just amazing, your personal experience is amazing on a lot of different levels, both in terms of what you’ve experienced, experienced in the way that people talk about experiences and strange experiences, but also just in terms of your experience in terms of doing real research an d interfacing with science and all that stuff. And then we could get into Daniella, your wife, and some of the strangeness of that.

I do want to bring it back to three books because we’re not going to specifically talk about these books during the show, but we’re going to pick out pieces. So I’ve laid a lot on the table there to unpack but tell us a little bit about who you are and maybe what these books are all about.

Bruce Fenton: [00:02:41] Yeah, I mean in terms of research and an interest in, I suppose, mysterious subjects with the ancient mysteries, the workings of human consciousness, and a lot of other things, my beginnings in that go back to perhaps 11 years old. I remember having a collection of cards called the Ancient Mysteries of the World Set, which they came free with tea leaves my grandmother would buy and she would give me these cards. And they just got me an interest in these topics, things like crystal skulls, pyramids, lake monsters, all of the strange things that we’re all probably familiar with from mysteries and occult and all the rest of it.

That’s probably where I’d say I got interested, but in terms of real research, I guess, probably from about 20 onwards, I began to really dive into the literature on particularly ancient mysteries, was there a lost civilization? That kind of side really drew me in, you know, Egypt, the pyramids, etc.

In terms of my academic background, I’m an IT grad, so not an archaeologist or an anthropologist. However, that has given me some useful skills, dealing with information and the flow of information, but obviously in a different way.

And also when we come to the matter of DNA, from an IT person’s perspective, we tend to look at DNA code as code. I know that some people will argue that DNA is not true code, but we just call it that. I would say it is a true code, so that’s my position.

Also, I’ve done a lot of traveling to various strange places around the world and with the Science Channel I went out to the Caucuses in Georgia to hunt for giants’ bones. That was quite an adventure. I’ve been into the Amazon jungle to explore a megalithic complex there, which is from an unknown culture, and lots of other things, Mayan sites, the pyramids. So yeah, I’ve been boots on the ground, going to some of the interesting places in the world and also delving into the academic literature as well.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:04:52] So great, and you did a nice job and we could kind of go on and on there about stuff. But when people read your book, what they’re going to find is, you’re a really smart guy, and you go toe-to-toe with the paleontologists and the anthropologists and you crush them. And you’ve done your best, you’ve shown me some of the email exchanges you’ve had with some of those scientists who, some of them are pretty nice and they’ve come to you and they’ve said, “Wow Bruce, I’m blown away by what you’ve written,” but  it’s quite a testament to two things. One, what a single person can do, how they can make a difference. And without the “proper” credentials or without being inside an institution that protects them, and all of that, you can still make a difference out there.

And the other thing that we’ll talk about as part of that is just how corrupt but also inept  the academic process that we lean on, how it doesn’t serve our purpose, doesn’t serve us answering these deeper questions of who are we and why are we here, and it’s failed us over and over again. And I think your books are evidence of that.

Can you give us just a very brief sketch of these three books that I have pictured up here on the screen?

Bruce Fenton: [00:06:15] Sure, yeah. The Into Africa book, which is the sort of my theory of evolution, this was retitled The Forgotten Exodus: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. That book really came out of the work I was doing in Ecuador, when I was exploring this megalithic site. Now, that would seem a bit strange, but what I uncovered was a link to a people called the Lagoa Santa down in Brazil. Now, they are quite mysterious, but they seem to be the first Americans. And what you find is that their morphology, their skull structure resembles that of Aboriginal Australians. Now that was anomalous. You also find there are some sites down in Brazil that seems to be around 40,000, 50,000 years old. Now, that’s hugely controversial. I mean, as you’ll know, most people know, it’s been hard enough for academics to let go of the Clovis First model, with a first arrival of modern humans to the Americas around 13,000 years ago.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:07:13] Which at this point, it’s overwhelming, I mean, the evidence stacks up here and there.

Bruce Fenton: [00:07:19] Absolutely.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:07:20] What you just said is really important, and I’m sorry to interrupt but I want to highlight that. No matter how much the evidence piles up, they will not let go of that, at least a large portion of that community will not let go of that.

Bruce Fenton: [00:07:34] Yeah, they’ve fought the change tooth and nail, and even now, where it’s becoming very clear and they’re having to acknowledge that there were some settlements that are pre-Clovis. They are still resisting incorporating the older sites, right?

So recently, you may have seen there was a news story, they had a site about 15,000, 16,000 years old and it was like, “Wow, it’s one of earliest sites in the Americas.” Well only if you disregard a whole list of other sites that have been well dated but are just too controversial for those skeptical conservatives in academia who say, “Well no, no, we can’t be going straight back to 40,000 or 50,000. 16,000, that’s tolerable, just,” you know, just. And it’s amazing, they listed about three or four sites in this Nat Geo article saying these are the early sites.

For example, there’s a particularly good location, I think it’s the Bluefish Caves and that was dated to 23,000 years, and that was many years back. The guy who did the dating, he was a laughingstock for years, his colleagues were making fun of him at every conference. It was re-dated again recently, I think 2017. 23,000 years confirmed his dates. Now, that wasn’t even on this list in Nat Geo.

So that gives you an idea of the thinking that’s going on still, that we are not going to put these early sites on, no matter how many people confirm that they’re genuine, right?

And that, again, prefaces a lot of what we’re going to talk about, that conservatism and that dishonesty, really, in some areas of the academic field. They do know that there are these anomalies, if you like, which anomalies can easily be rectified by changing models, but for now they’re anomalies in their models. And that’s just one example. As I said, there are sites down in Brazil that are way older, and there are academics down there that have been fighting for a long time to get recognition of the true depth of antiquity of these sites. One of the problems they struggle with, of course, is that the field is really headed by Europeans and Americans and North Americans. So if you’re an academic from anywhere outside of that, you tend to find that your work is sidelined.

As I said, I’ve had this conversation with someone recently that they’ll say, “We have realized that we weren’t correct on something.” Who is this ‘we’? This is the ‘royal we’ of European and North American scientists talking down to everyone else, including other academics who did know something and who had perhaps had papers on it for years, but then eventually they concede and say, “Oh, we didn’t know.” Well, apparently other academics did, Chinese academics or Russians, but they are not counted in that ‘royal we’.

So, you’ll find that happens a lot. It’s interesting, you start to get to see how the dynamics of these fields work. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:10:41] Well, it is interesting and here we are, we’re 20 minutes in and we’re still on the first slide, and I want to get over and talk about these other two books because they’re really the meat of what I was hoping we would talk about today. But I can’t leave that first topic because I think it highlights a couple points that I’ve already made and I’m going to remake, is that one, you are really doing the work. So boots on the ground in Ecuador, boots on ground in other archaeological sites, really digging into the best research and trying to understand that. So that’s the Into Africa book.

And the other thing you point out there is just all the rather obvious ways that the sacred truth of academia isn’t really something we should lean on, and we have to kind of drill that into ourselves and other people, because it’s hard to resist the temptation to keep coming back and going, “Oh, but this is what academia says.” And even if it’s a counterpoint, even if it’s saying, “Wow, Bruce has done such a great job in the face of academia,” at some point we’ve got to go, “No, the whole system is more fake than it’s real.”

You just mentioned the geopolitical part of it. So, if you’re in China, you might have one agenda, if you’re European, you might have another, American might have another. Well that’s not the way it’s supposed to work. Or look at money, how the money is distributed and the grants and, you know, that’s not the way it’s supposed to work.

But then take an even bigger step back and we’ve had some exchanges about this on the Skeptiko Forum and other places, look at it as a control mechanism. If you say that there’s a social engineering, social control aspect to all of this, which anyone has to admit there is, because any government, any agency has an interest in controlling stuff. That’s kind of what they do. Well, if you’re going to control stuff, one of the things you’re going to want to do is control this kind of narrative, and that doesn’t mean that you control it on a daily basis or you’re sticking the screws to some archaeologists, it just means at a higher level, you’re making sure that the story goes in a particular way.

And I think that’s the other thing that comes out of your work, as we look at it vis-à-vis the official narrative, and it’s like, well, of course they’re not going to be friendly to what you are saying.

So let me shift gears for a minute there and do give us a quick overview of these other two books that we’re going to get into.

Bruce Fenton: [00:13:18] Also there’s a connection here, because Into Africa, one of the focal points is Australia, and you’ll find that is a focal point in the other books as well. The reason for that is, I posit that homo sapiens, our story begins in Australia and that there are essentially a couple of waves that come out of that.

So this really runs counter, of course, to Out of Africa. Not necessary completely. At the moment, the early hominins, most of those fossils are in Africa, but what I mean is the beginnings of the homo sapiens story, which is around about 780,000 years ago, okay? So I placed major events in Australia.

I also think this is to do with why we have, kind of an information wall around this Out of Australia, because it does connect to the other two books, where we’re dealing with, what I would say is obviously a manipulation in the genetics of early hominins and this first massive, I suppose leap towards true homo sapiens and modern humans. Obviously, it’s not instantaneous, it’s not one day we have hominins and then we have modern humans, there is still a process over which these genes express, etc.

But very quickly, as well, from the Into Africa, I should have said that this is probably a key thing that people should look into and I want to give a quick example of why the book is important.

Recent Out of Africa, in fact one of those famous models within anthropology, that we come out of Africa around about… Well, it depends. This is actually a key on where you read this, you’ll hear that we either come out of Africa about 60,000 years ago. If you go to genetics, it’s 60,000 to 50,000 years ago. If you go to the archaeologists and anthropologists, they’ll tell you it’s 70,000 to 80,000. There’s a reason why you’ll see that inconsistency everywhere, across articles, magazines, wherever you go you’re going to see this. Depending on who you go to, the geneticists will say one thing, the archeologists another. Is it because it’s just two different events? There is a there is a movement into Africa, 73,000 years ago from Eurasia, and there’s lots of evidence for this. There’s a movement of culture, the first use of arrows, there’s art that emerges, all sorts of things, new genes. And then 60,000 years ago, you have the initial migrations into Eurasia and those starting out of Australia.

Now I say that very quickly because you can go away and look at that and say, “Well, why would they hide that?” I think there’s some kind of effort to keep us away from Australia and what’s going on down there, and in the earlier waves of this, again, there have been migrations out of Australia. So I just want to preface that that there is something odd going on, that if I can find that inconsistency, I’m sure academics can. So I do find that odd that they can’t notice there are definitely two models being merges together.

So in the other books, we’re going right back to that beginning of that homo sapiens story, and I’m saying that we have hominins in the area. And this used to be controversial until a couple of years ago because it was thought there were no hominins down in Oceania, Australia, or even anywhere in that region. But we now know that the islands of Indonesia were well-populated, populated by homo erectus and also it seems ancestral form of homo floresiensis, the hobbit people.

Now, this is going back at least a million years ago, so this is before the rise of homo sapiens. It’s understood, if you can make your way across these islands and through what’s called Wallace’s Line, which is the geographic sort of barrier between Asia and Australia, once you pass that, your next stop is Australia, and there’s nothing to stop you. The major currents in that area, you’ve already you’ve already crossed them, assumedly in watercraft. Academics will tell you that maybe they got washed along in tsunamis, which is I think is a ludicrous, absolutely ludicrous suggestion. Because, you know, you’ve got to imagine a whole community of people washed off of the coast of Asia, carried across to one of these islands without drowning or being eaten by sharks or any other form, and all arriving at the same time because to make a community you need a whole group of people. So it’s not just one guy washed off and carried, all of you have to be carried there.


Alex Tsakiris: [00:17:29] Bruce. I want to jump in there and I’ll break that down a little bit further because. You got to read these books folks. They’re just just got to read them. I don’t know how else to say it Bruce does a really good job of breaking this stuff down and I had to take it chunk by chunk and then reprocess it in some ways and let me do that here what you’re saying is for a community from a genetic standpoint.

You need so many. Gene pools in these little people to survive. So some people some 50 some people say a hundred whatever but you let’s say you have to have but the difference you have to have 75 humans in order to start a new colony and then take what you just said the idea that that the fact that.

Some academic who’s getting paid a salary he’s going to conferences and you know, everyone’s patting him on the back would suggest that well the way that happened is there is a giant tsunami so, we know what tsunamis look like we can watch him on YouTube true wealth. All these people together got swept up in a tsunami and floated off.

You know, I’m very his logs, whatever together, these great distances it it’s just really kind of a silly proposition.

Bruce Fenton: [00:18:49] It’s his totosh that because I mean for a start one of the things we know is that tsunamis in open ocean, they’re just a little a ripple. You won’t really notice you to be bobbed up in the air briefly, right?

They don’t carry you along. I like surfing the. Nami and Wednesday here. And of course, there’s so destructive. If you’re standing on the beach and this, this mega tsunami comes the enough to wash, your whole Community into the water the chance to survive in that initial event solo.

And now you’re into what is some of those powerful currents in the world the move through those Indonesian Island, which moved to the Southwest right? So, why are they going to carry you East so we have all these. These problems that even if they’re not cling on to log, there’s no reason that log will take you to the Indonesian Island.

It will carry you off out to the Southwest out into the open ocean. So it’s either

Alex Tsakiris: [00:19:39] there’s no reason that there’s no reason that all the other logs or different debris are gonna go in the same the same

Bruce Fenton: [00:19:47] way

Alex Tsakiris: [00:19:47] over

Bruce Fenton: [00:19:47] hang with my boys. That’s right. It’s a ludicrous idea that we have this whole Community founded in this one catastrophe and they all end up on the same island.

Yeah if it begs the. That this is something that they will straight-faced state in like so is in a conference or a show, they will tell us that that is their favored model rather than just simply saying perhaps they had watercraft

Alex Tsakiris: [00:20:10] and and again, we’re maybe I’m guilty of it here. Maybe I’m kind of beating a dead horse, but I do think we have to.

Grind on that because what you’re about to do and what you’re about to tell us is so so hard for people to accept. I know it is it’s hard for me to accept it’s hard for other people. We have to continually contrast it with just what a load of crap. We’ve been fed and it’s kind of like, you’ve you’ve swallowed a load of crap.

You swallow a little crack with the Out of Africa thing. You’ve swallowed a load of crap with this thing that they’re floating out there. So maybe be a little bit more open-minded when Bruce says. Hey I alone doing my own little research here in Wales have cracked the code and said 780,000 years ago an event happened that is really the source of all of this stuff and.

Maybe I have beaten about dead horse. Maybe we should jump into the really hard of it and start with that 780,000 years because I have to tell you from just you’ve been on the Forum and we’ve done a good conversation in reviewing this stuff beforehand. 780,000 years is the first thing that jumps out at people.

They got okay. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Okay. I’ve heard these alternative Evolution origin stories. Why is this guy married to 780,000 years at? What’s the what’s the deal there? What’s going on? So let’s start there why 780,000 years because this is. A big jump off the off the cliff alone.

Bruce Fenton: [00:21:52] It isn’t, certainly that if you look into even other alternative models where people have argued for some kind of event, that’s caused our Evolution. You’ll find that yeah, the dates are different, I know that it’s hitching off. There’s a popular kind of argument that around 400,000 years ago humans were upgraded from Homo erectus by alien engineers.

One of them to be slaves, that’s a quite popular model out there in The Fringe World, obviously in the mundane. I could tell me what those not a popular model. But so I don’t I don’t agree with that and I also don’t agree with the. Through the conventional model either now one of the things that has been long accepted is that around about 800,000 years ago?

The human brain basically goes into rapid unexpected acceleration. Now this has been known since we had a reasonable size collection of fossils, it’s not you. So what was missing from that was why is to think why does the the cranium suddenly go into this rapid expansion, of course things have changed a little bit now because we have jeans, we have genetic evidence, right which for we just had the skulls now.

That’s really been crucial like the work. I do you couldn’t you couldn’t do with you know what we had I guess on the table so 40 years ago or something, right? Because it is in those genes that we can see, there’s something particularly radical happened alongside the brain expansion right.

Now. How did I ever get to looking at that date though now, well, that’s why I held

Alex Tsakiris: [00:23:29] on Eric. Let me interrupt again and people hate when I do this, but I don’t care. I one of the things I found really compelling in the book relates to this graphic you see up on the screen, right? And it relates to the point that you just made for those people who are interested in the genetics and interested in are able to make the leap that you said at the very introduction to your story.

Is that from an information processing? That’s all DNA is it’s all genetics. It’s about information Theory and really that’s where the science has gone. Right? So it’s really heading in that direction anyway, but you make this phenomenal point and it’s good. We can almost almost start and build it from start at the end and then lay it back in but I have up there.

It’s called chickens and chimps was one of the categories that I am skeptical bored and I just brought up the graphic for it and what it shows is. Is this 350 million year

Evolution as it looks from a genetic standpoint the difference between a chicken and a chimpanzee and the difference is statistically insignificant and then you have the difference between a chimpanzee and a human.

Over the last 800,000 years like you’re talking about and it’s unbelievably rich and there you have to explain that in better than I did but also want you to really hone in on how statistically significant. That is getting back to the science standpoint.

Bruce Fenton: [00:25:11] Yeah, absolutely. I mean this was fairly recent revelations in science was they found that yes in these in particular regions of the genetic code and these are what’s called highly conserved regions now, Don’t know why for that is that there are areas of the human code, which if you change them slightly if there’s a mutation you sensually cause a failure now that either you will be born dead or born with with such such problems that you probably won’t live a normal life and won’t be able to reproduce you know, so these are catastrophic failures to have mutations in these.

Is right. So what you’ll find is across the animal kingdom. There’s some areas of the code which remain very similar between, pretty much all species certainly within is higher animals. If you take those there you’ve got the example the chicken and chimpanzee see that this is slight difference basically free changes over 300 million years of divergent evolution, so we know that the the area that we’re dealing with.

Is showing critical to life that it’s extraordinarily rare that a mutation will happen that’s in some way positive or neutral and will be retained going forward. Right said he got to sort of appreciate that these are these areas of don’t just keep randomly changing regularly, very stable. Now what we see here is that since the split that’s happened between chimps and humans which around 5 million years ago that there’s been wild changes and we know that some of these cluster around the time that that are lineages split neanderthals and denisovans again, which is around the 780,000 years ago.

So we have a cluster of these then there are some. Another points. There’s a cluster there. Now what the heck’s going on here because we have leading academics that are examining. These are saying well when we do the maths, we find that the the chances of this happening by any known evolutionary means is a statistically zero.

And that’s a really should I should hit anyone. You know, I think I’ll hang on a minute. This isn’t Bruce saying this these leading buyers to Titian, as you know, work out the numbers and saying that these should not be there in all of our models. These would not be there and yet

Alex Tsakiris: [00:27:28] break that down a little bit.

I think it’s such an important point. My understanding of it is that 300 million years is a long long time. It’s a lot of generations and if those Generations don’t change don’t show any change over that time then they’re really really stable.

So that becomes your base. So all these changes we see on the screen in pink become much much more significant because you look at that and you go. Well, it’s just three verses 18. That’s not that big of a difference but

Bruce Fenton: [00:28:06] statistically scale. It’s

Alex Tsakiris: [00:28:08] the time scale. Yeah

Bruce Fenton: [00:28:10] that there’s no way in those few million years that you shouldn’t have even had one more chance.

You certainly shouldn’t have about 18 one more would have been weird, they would had to scratch their heads. But why did that happen but to have so many and for them to be successful and in some way beneficial because remember that for them to persist they must be giving us a. Right.

That’s the other the other I stick to

Alex Tsakiris: [00:28:34] your point at for them to persist at the very least. They don’t have that. They shouldn’t kill you

Bruce Fenton: [00:28:39] because it’s really

Alex Tsakiris: [00:28:40] isn’t changes in those deadly sequence yet. Right

Bruce Fenton: [00:28:44] and the primary is not just one. This is a best example could har1 the best. These but that essentially there’s areas called human accelerated regions because they found these regions that seemed to have gone through accelerated evening.

She process and they found a number of them now. I think they’re up to hundreds of. Right, which is specific to us, we don’t find them in the other primates. They’ve happened since our split and that there’s hundred and they’re not these are not genes, right. This is these are areas that are related to what’s called a genetic switches.

These areas that control the expression of genes. So let’s just say you have a gene that will give you a certain length of arm, right, but there’s also switches which will cause that expression to make you have a longer arm shorter. I’m you can even turn off the gene, right which gives you that arm.

So with these switches you can do. So, let’s say if you are engineering something and you understood these areas you could do remarkable things. You can recreate an organism by modifying all of. Switches. Okay, so you’re not adding in jeans or taking out jeans not at that stage. You’re just playing with these switches, right?

But yeah, you can do extraordinary things. But if we were to try and do that today, it would be impossible. We do not understand the science well enough. And I say we would end up just killing the organism. We make one of these changes hoping for the best. It’s almost certain it will die because we know that if 300 million years only three were successful.

So our chances of just stumbling on one, our stage in genetic engineering is miniscule, right and yet we see these huge number successes. Okay, can they be natural? Well, as far as we know right now, there’s no natural mechanism which explains this. So the default in that then is can it be unnatural?

And I said yes, of course it can as long as there is something I intelligence somewhere which is able to modify this deliberately. We don’t really have a lot of other choices here because the academics are telling us, this is zero percent chance from what we understand. So what else can it be now simple overview just left to, alien Engineers want know.

I have other reasons why I go down that route, but there is implicitly a need for a solution to these areas and say hundreds of areas of the human DNA code

Alex Tsakiris: [00:31:13] and we should add that from a kind of logic reason and science theory of science standpoint. It doesn’t really matter. How you develop your.

What matters is you’re testing of that theory? Right? So in a minute we’re going to talk about. How you even decided to look at 780,000 years ago and if we look at the history of science that there’s plenty of cases where people had a dream right for all the way from Einstein to Mozart in a different area.

But yeah, that’s all over the place that people are accessing some other aspect of Consciousness and get inspiration. So your inspiration. Let’s talk about this book that we have out there and and as that as a starting point, but what we want to emphasize don’t lose track here. This guy is science all the way.

So he’s like he can develop a theory, but then he’s very rigorous about testing that theory.

Bruce Fenton: [00:32:12] Yeah. I mean you can have I guess you’re going this way. There’s plenty of religious people in The Sciences, right? For example, they’re able to understand that they have their religious Faith perhaps their religious experiences.

But they can also go to their day job, right and do hard science. So so we’re going to say that word is a contrast. How can you be this kind of esoteric thinker or Mystic and yet be concerned with hard science. Well, there’s thousands and thousands of scientists that are doing that every day right there.

They’re putting their their belief in a Pantheon of gods to one side while they do their lab work, right? So so that shouldn’t be implicitly problem. Some people find a problem, but it shouldn’t be because we should be used. That now the way happened in this case is that yeah. I read this book.

And ouch ringer when the first answers were created came to me through a connection a Australian friend that knew the book, right? So they sort of mentioned it to me because of some other experiences person experiences that I’d had which made it relevant metaphysical experiences. And so I read this.

Really those parts of it that really grabbed me particularly. There was a description of a craft coming to this planet in the distant distant past says towards 900,000 years ago. So it’s not giving the exact date that I will argue for and I’ll come to that but it’s you know wealth are back in that period and that this craft is basically destroyed.

There’s a few survives that come from it. This is obviously a longer backstory to this that some of them survived they come down to the planet. Now one of the reasons why this really grabbed me is that many years ago going back to our 2001. I had a shamanic journey in which I saw events which were very much paralleled to this.

So so when I have put the two things together mean this book I’m thinking however, he reminds me. From the Visionary experiences. I had years ago these beings in these uniforms described in a craft coming towards Earth things. I’d seen in that Vision which at the time meant nothing to me and I’d put it away for years and years being, just one of those things a strange experience that you have no context for now suddenly.

I had context you know, the book telling you all this happened on this happened in this item and you can recognize that. Yes. This seems to be very similar. Now what was important this week? He said no needs it lay out details of this craft roughly when it arrived. How is destroyed? What is made of the potential kind of debris that we left?

But also other events in there which could be tracked, a bombardment of asteroids a few years later five years after this explosion and a description of the creating of the first Homo sapiens all clustered together right in in a temporal space and physical place. So I’m thinking well if this is true and that the author says look, although she feels is true in the end.

She says you’re not providing you. Science, if you believe it you believe it if you don’t you don’t and she’s quite honest about that. She doesn’t say, you must believe my you know, my book she’s aware that she doesn’t do what I do and go away and get you know, scientific evidence.

She leaves it as it is now I should clarify. How does she get this? Story, right and the way I would interpret it and you can be interpreted from ways, but I’m going to wrap it in a what is a scientific way that there is an artifact which comes into her possession and Aboriginal sacred artifact called a taringa torturing Gaston.

Now the law around these artifacts is that they go back to the original ones. Go back to the dream time when the first humans were created when a lot the landscape was created when there was these these beings that walked the Earth they call these there’s Sky heroes or dreaming beings who walk the earth right and that they did all these amazing things now.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:36:12] Can I just clarify first thing? So you’re saying if you go to certain.

Aboriginal groups in Australia and say what are these things? They’ll say exactly what you just said

Bruce Fenton: [00:36:24] there? Yes, and that they that they have within them the consciousness of dreaming beings from that dream time out ringa beings. Okay. So you have an artifact which in his own law says it has.

Penny inhabiting consciousness of some kind of entity from the time when humans were created that’s in their law, right? So that’s long before I’ve come around. I don’t know. I’m not involved in making that up or or claiming that it simply is the Aboriginal law for these artifacts. When you really think about that, that’s that can be put into a cottage spiritual context which they have which is you know, these Spirit beings in these artifact, but let’s put that another way.

Let’s say that there was a visitation to this planet in remote prehistory and the beings Left Behind technologies that we cannot understand technologies. That would be essentially unrecognizable to us because they’re so Advanced and disguised in such a way. Is that for us? They don’t look like much look like maybe this–maybe look like a.

Call it looks like just you know, this artifact is they know it’s very special. They know it can communicate with them. It has a Consciousness. So in their way of looking at it’s a spirit being right, but could this not be exactly what we would call a bracewell probe because bracewell probe essentially is very Advanced AI.

Technology, which can be sent out to other worlds. This is a theorized within NASA papers that you can send out these things and they would like to send signals which will sit on a planet wait for a civilization to arise you’re monitoring tracking the whole time and then at a certain point these things could be programmed to activate and make contact with the civilization now, In this instance, it seems to be exactly what we have that’s happened.

This this artifact this inhabiting Consciousness, which I would say could be an AI in may not be a being in the way that we think about it. But again, then you come into a philosophical thing and it is a hard AI that self-aware. Is it a. I think maybe you

Alex Tsakiris: [00:38:30] also come into the really the spiritual in a broader sense understanding of it because I think we do get locked into our space-time reality and everything has to fit into that.

You know, we do have to incorporate in your shamanic Journey. We do have to incorporate in your dream experiences daniela’s dream experiences. And the reason I say that is because I’ve had a bunch of. People have tried to explore that stuff scientifically do mediums really talk to the dead does Consciousness really survive death?

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. So  I’m not shooting down the AI,  thing, but until we can understand the larger extended Consciousness reality we don’t really know but your speculation is fair because. Is what you’re connecting it to is that hey, that’s what these people say.

It is and you had this experience with it and you it connected you with your past experience. And then the real story is  you said let me see if I can prove it.

Bruce Fenton: [00:39:33] Absolutely at that point it can be ambiguous. It doesn’t matter if it’s a spirit living in a rock or if it’s an AI in a probe, right?

They’ll be people get hung up on that one or the other but as you point out there what really matters is is what it’s telling us validate. You’re right. So it doesn’t matter, you can be either and it maybe they’re the same thing but just from different cultural filters that the spirit being or the alien AI maybe they’re the same thing, I don’t know but I can let other people decide for themselves which one fits into their world view, right?

Because not going to arbitrate that for people but what matters for me is the information again, So we have this this object which communicates through voice to skull which again, that could be technological we have voice to scale Technologies or it could be metaphysical could be telepathy, again beeping things are ambiguous right

Alex Tsakiris: [00:40:27] could be both right?

Bruce Fenton: [00:40:28] It could be both what matters is we know that both of those things exist technological voice to scale metaphysical voice to skull. Okay, so I don’t mind which one it was this object communicates information directly into Valerie Burrows head it gives. Whole story of what’s happened? And again, this is quite funny because I’m very recently I think isn’t a John Keel book.

He talks about something called the The Dark Knight the Black Knight satellite. This is supposedly that the years ago. They just take the satellite in orbit around this planet right some and he theorized maybe at some point it would provide a lost history of our planet now, that’s kind of funny because this is actually what this.

This object does he acts exactly is this story of the Black Knight satellite that there’s some Alien Probe which is recorded our story and is at some point able to then relay it to us and that’s what it basically downloads the entire lost history of our early Origins telling us that you know, this craft derives it initially plans for a colonization event.

Did they are genetically engineering themselves to live on the planet, which is very reasonable stuff. You think about the they can’t just live on the planet, they’re not suited but they’re using their own technology to modify themselves to live here. Now. Unfortunately, there is a complex exopolitical event basically a betrayal by some people on board and to another party that is at that time in control of this planet.

There’s supposed to be a hand over instead. There’s an ambush. The ship is destroyed is a vast kilometer diameter quartz crystalline ship groaning from living crystal is how they described is not built. It’s grown and is inhabited by its own AI within the frame of the. First you think okay crystals.

Whoo, but hang on a minute, what are the Leading Edge science is telling us that the future of conscience is uploading into vast silicon networks like so we have this enormous silica Network within which is the crew. Yeah. So the ultimate computer you don’t have the computer on board the craft the craft is the computer imagine the the processing power of a kilometer diameter Moonlight craft, which is inhabited by I so it’s.

Tactical Technologies magical Technologies. So

Alex Tsakiris: [00:42:42] let’s let’s chunk this down job for a second

Bruce Fenton: [00:42:45] and I can’t eat.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:42:47] Yeah. I mean, I don’t know to stop you or to just kind of let it go because I love all the the either deeper stuff that we could get into in all this but just let me bring it back up to speed.

So Valerie has this download and I say download because in the UFO Community we hear that all the time. Nde near-death experience Community we hear that all the time that I reach this extended Consciousness realm and I got a download instantaneous like excite Encyclopedia Britannica, which is so outdated, but take Wikipedia Wikipedia was suddenly just boom popped into my head and I knew the answer to everything.

I’m not saying that Valerie said this I’m saying this concept of. Download is well reported over and over again in a number of different communities like the UFO Abduction community and the nde community. So Valerie has such a download and then just to recap the download says hey, here’s how you guys came into existent.

There’s this huge UFO and it came through this portal that you can point to the Pleiades and that’s not really it just kind of came through there. That was like the. The stop in the subway system in exude over here and boom it was there and then it somehow got destroyed and because there was this war between the planet gets really kind of crazy.

Bruce Fenton: [00:44:20] God

Alex Tsakiris: [00:44:21] I’m sorry, but as you

Bruce Fenton: [00:44:22] say well no, he’s necessarily complement. I know people probably like it to be a simple narrative without you know, a back story of betrayed ships and alien alliances and but if that’s what’s out there that’s what’s out there, right, there’s if it’s weird and strange and it’s alien well, it should be weird and strange story for start right because you know, it’s an alien story, right?

So again, I think the center could become another point. Some people jump to is it while you say the come from the Pleiades? Oh, the Pleiades are a young stars Cloud, there’s no way Advanced life could have formed their well, this is two problems firstly they don’t say they live there, right?

They’ve traveled from their from a gateway. Doesn’t mean that they’re that worlds are in there and this is multiple types of beings so we can assume that they come from various worlds in various places, but their last jumping-off Point through this Wormhole is the Pleiades. Secondly, we don’t know what kinds of Life out there.

I mean are there life forms that live in these nebulous gas clouds within you know, these young started. We don’t know. That’s it. That’s truthfully. We don’t. I suspect that the Pleiades may be entirely a manufactured Cloud just took power their Stargate. I don’t know but who knows when you start dealing with type free civilizations who it is theorized.

They can move some things around and all sorts of we have to be careful of the limitations that we would artificially put on. What a century I was Godlike technology is Right Where You know, it’s it’s so far ahead for us. That it just sounds ludicrous right? But if you look at our cutting-edge fingers in The Sciences.

The kind of things that these download includes are the things that they’re telling us. They imagine Advanced alien civilizations having right? So there’s a consistency that and again a lot of these things have come out only recently these ideas when Valerie wrote this book back in much experiences are back in the early 90s, but she wrote that she published book in 2003.

A lot of these things which are might hear weren’t even out in in the conversation in the media. There’s a lot of this stuff is quite recent these ideas. She certainly I asked me how she could be anywhere if he’s like voice to scale Technologies or or that, uploading Consciousness to Silicon networks.

These really a kind of cutting-edge ideas right now so we can figure out where they lived in the Pleiades. I don’t think they did there certainly isn’t a reason to dismiss it, okay. Then we have of course. Yeah this what I say, is it a logical explanation, not only that the craft is how to AI cetera.

That’s why it’s crystalline make sense. But also we have your they were going to genetically engineer themselves. They have those Technologies make sense explain. Hold on.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:47:03] Hold on cuz it doesn’t it doesn’t make sense right to a lot of people it doesn’t make sense. Their mind is blown

Bruce Fenton: [00:47:11] but

Alex Tsakiris: [00:47:12] Bruce has done some science here that is in the make sense.

Kind of category like I have the board up here and you know chickens and chimps. We already talked about but you know, I think a lot of people will say that makes sense Bruce that’s a strong argument and you bring us to 780,000 years ago in a way that makes me scratch my head and say yeah that is kind of strange.

You got a couple other ones in here buddy that. I don’t know but it is just too crazy. I mean, do you want to talk about tektites? Do you want to talk? My tractor beam? Where do you want to go? I’m going

Bruce Fenton: [00:47:54] to check twice because that is relating to the ship that we’ve already already discussed.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:48:00] Go just what are they and why is this like even a thing?

Bruce Fenton: [00:48:05] Sure, now tektites are basically formed by extreme events stream like there’s a couple thank you for the map and she’s been at there’s been a number of these respond number on this map. We can see this been four major tectonic. Events, you got one over in in Africa. You’ve got another one over in Europe and you’ve got one office in North America.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:48:30] Let’s just make sure people understand these are these are meteorites in simple terms.

Bruce Fenton: [00:48:34] So impact. Yeah, these are particular kinds of impacts. Now I said particular as we only have four of these Tech Toys strewn Fields, so there is some be implicitly. Strange and you know anomalous about tektite stream Fields because we know this planet has been hit by many many meteorites asteroids even comments and if you go through the whole 4.5 billion years, right?

We’ve been we’ve been whacked a lot of times but the strange thing is we only have four of these strewn Fields where we get these these. Small pieces of material that had been melted they’ve been shaped usually into either dumbbell shapes teardrop shapes or small spheres and these are molten, usually molten rock from both the object and from the the area itself has been impacted by which a melting these out.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:49:22] These are really really really weird. These are unique in each one of

Bruce Fenton: [00:49:26] the unique couple

Alex Tsakiris: [00:49:27] of different ways and the other thing about that chart that when I went and looked that I didn’t immediately get is if you just go. Like I went to University of Texas and they got this nice website and they talk about the tektites and they go hey, they happen from 5 million years ago to a million years ago, and I’m like, hey, what’s Bruce talking about man these things but now you dig the next layer like you just did that’s not really a very meaningful way of telling the story because the real meaning is that hey these these particular kind of very unique meteorites that have.

This kind of like a fast food or a snack food kind of core in the middle of one thing. And another thing that melted on the outside really that they’re only four separate events that are separated by millions and millions of years and the one that’s really the most interesting jumps out even when you just look at the map to

Bruce Fenton: [00:50:27] clowns

Alex Tsakiris: [00:50:28] and what’s the uh, what’s the dating on that?

Bruce Fenton: [00:50:30] And that was a 780,000 years? And that’s faster thing went out when I went away to look up. You know, was there any material that match the description of this craft breaking up? You know that this this crystalline is course crystalline craft. Suppose he carried around 50,000 beings on balls with one enormous thing right that it broke up his describe that it came oppose.

It came apart melted. It was a high temperature event. The energy weapons that were used cause it to shatter. There’s resonance frequencies and heating. So it’s like shattering apart exploded and description of what was a nuclear type explosion at the end and that then material rain down far and wide this is described in this download right?

So I thought well. Could it be that any of these melted raining material could survive to the present because we’re not talking about iron or something. That would have just rusted away. Right? Because it’s a sealer coat. There’s the chance of a persisting for a very long time in the geological record.

Now if I went away and had a look and I thought well probably wouldn’t find anything. Right? So you’d actually quite lucky the even if this is real events, you have you’re quite lucky that something has been found. It’s been analyzed, and it matches up and so I was quite astonished to find that there was a 100 year long mystery around this material could all strike Tech type and that you know, I guess a lot geologists and chemistry stuff will know this has been stabbed at study by NASA.

I hadn’t heard he heard of it. You know, I guess a lot of the listeners maybe haven’t either right and what you find is that there’s been this. Yeah long-standing argument over how it Formed because it’s quite unlike the other free tektite Fields, right? Which again they are rare enough, but our own his own is this vast australoid field, which is doesn’t even doesn’t even resemble the other stream feeling.

He’s just so enormous. Cumbersome like 10% of the planet surface, right and it’s not shaped in the way that we Spectrum an impact was just froze out debris into a fairly omnidirectional way which we kind of see in the other stream feels like it’s going all over the place and it’s covering, Australia all the way up to two parts of China and then you know out towards Madagascar.

You’ve got this vast Stringfield, right? That’s an anomaly is very young. And so they assumed you two got to find the crater. This enormous crater should be glaringly obvious because as you point out some of these other events millions of years old and they found the craters, right the Austrian field had no greater.

And that was one core Mysteries because they can find that there’s chunks of material there over 20 kilos in weight. I’ve been basically acting like Laos and so for well, the creator has to be there because if you’ve got pieces that big they’re not going to have traveled far. So that’s the Creator and he looking around and there’s nothing else we can scan these days.

So they’ve scanned. There’s no crater and then there’s other issues with this because the NASA studies revealed that one form of Austria light these buttons that you showed in the image. They do look like a button shape, right or also like the nose cone of a re-entry vehicle and that since you have NASA has looked at them partly because of that they can see it’s been shaped by the aerodynamic forces of re-entering the Earth’s atmosphere.

So they were quite interested in them. And they know for a fact that the only way this could have formed is. A large body was in orbit. That’s a key point in orbit around our planet to this not an asteroid or Comet flying in hurtling in has been orbit and there is a

Alex Tsakiris: [00:53:58] different angle, right? It doesn’t divide it come

Bruce Fenton: [00:54:02] straight in.

Yeah huge feeds colossal. Particularly because they know that this material has isotopic ratios in it, which is signatures of being alien to our solar system again, so this isn’t one of the asteroids in the asteroid belt which go particular speeds. Usually these other objects that come in are coming in a horrendous.

So the idea that I say a comet coming in from outside, the solar system would be caught in the Earth’s gravity and start, becoming a moon basically for the Earth is astonishingly witheringly small for right but now you have this object which is orbiting us and then for no apparent reason explodes.

They say it has two broken up in space. They know this because the material shows signs of having melted formed spheres as liquid will in a vacuum. Right and then Super quickly Frozen again the cold of space like so they know that that was the formation process for the initials Farrell’s right?

And that these then slowly make their way down at a fairly gentle angle every entry which allows them to form. These The Shield shapes rather than just burning up. They come in at quite a shallow angle. So you’ve got basically a deteriorating orbit. And should they make their way back in and they you get a whole shower of these and these are the ones that’s the starting point of the re-entry zone.

So if you imagine where the craft itself to being destroyed now these mostly fell in Antarctica and Southern Australia. So this one is a is where the event has happened because that’s the. Which are for these little pieces have been blown off of it and they’ve coming but then you have larger chunks and that these have entered across central to North Australia and Southeast Asia and these larger chunks as they came in.

They become superheated and say they turn into Ariel bursts colossal nuclear bomb like explosions in the upper atmosphere and they throw down material, which is now in the shape of dumbbells. CS right which is typical tektite shaped not the buttons. The buttons are unique. They have to have formed from reentry.

From some space. So that’s one of the points. We don’t see that any other strewn field totally unique in the 4.6 billion years of this planet. Now these pad we know goes aerial burst one of the mysteries of Technology biotech types was that you find them in clusters on the ground and the geologists a long time couldn’t fathom that because an impact throws stuff out pretty much omnidirectional or knowing who integrate with chemistry in its going to be in a circle around it, but fairly evenly.

You don’t find them is in little patches that you could find a whole patch hundreds of them. And then they stopped you can walk for another hundred kilometers before finding another one. That’s a signature for aerial burst because where they’ve exploded they’ve come down the ground strands and Eve but nowhere else, right?

So you’ve got many large pieces exploding in different areas across Australia South East Asia, and this finally got proved I think of years back. There’s a geologist who spent decades it is Passion this subject right? She spent a decade trying. The stand. And he found a really Unique Piece up in when nothing to me wrong tektites up in Laos.

It’s Unique because it has effused second chunk stuck to it. He said the only way that could have form is if you’ve had an area worst, you’ve got matured on the ground hours later a secondary or burst has occurred and a piece of material by good luck has stuck to one of the the cooling chunks. He said at that point for sure.

The only way this can happen is Ariel burst. So this is not an impact. This is debris raining down from an object which has exploded inspect masses told us has to formed in space. And now we know there is no impact. These are chunks of debris from something and they’re coming in and they’re exploding until eventually we get the end of the debris field.

I’ve been moving Nang but you get these strange Laird. Tights which again is quite mysterious. They don’t understand why they’re in these thin layers and I find that kind of funny because there’s a lot of talking about meta materials from UFOs right between layers. We keep getting these pictures from you know, teacher say what not.

They have these layers and he’s very sneaky. Look at me wrong tektites or see actually there in layers like that again. Nobody knows why theories why nobody’s nobody understands them. So you have there a hand in glove. Match with the download information but even down to It’s Made of there’s another paper that says they are largely silica about 75 percent silica from melted quartz and quartz dust even form right in space and asteroids isn’t the only formed in planetary systems that you don’t find chunks of quartz flying around.

He was so rare on the moon there when they found some they deduced it had to be from a meteorite from Earth that have been knocked off to them to the Moon because he don’t really get. Courts there. Yeah,

Alex Tsakiris: [00:58:47] so just just to recap for folks the the story you Valerie gets his download of information about this crazy Hollywood story about a spaceship that comes and they blow it out of the sky versus war in heaven kind of thing blows up.

It’s a crystalline thing and it falls to Earth and Bruce here goes, I’m just crazy enough to go look for evidence for that story because it matches up with AB half of a metaphysical experience. I had I’m going to go see it. You have the brains the smarts to say. Okay, how would I go about doing that?

And then you say geologically maybe there’s maybe there’s still some stuff around crazy as it may be and then like you just said hand in glove. I mean you just go through and I won’t do it here, but you go through. All the checkpoints of great mystery. No one ever. Did it acknowledge. Its a hundred-year mystery acknowledged.

This one is 780,000 years old acknowledge that it’s especially strange acknowledge that there’s no crater. I am going through all of them.  It defies explanation by normal means and I think people have to appreciate that. You’ve done it the right way, you’ve gone and look for the data.

It’s not your fault that the data completely false it line with this rather remarkable story

Bruce Fenton: [01:00:09] know they could have been nothing right. I could have gone and looked and found nothing that that was the most likely event. And you know, you think even if it was true that just you simply didn’t find anything, they haven’t discovered any material, I’m reliant on the academics in these things because you know, I don’t go out and do geology or archaeology again.

So, I’m a Layman so I have to see what’s in the records in the papers in the fines and so by luck. You know people have been out there and they found them they’ve analyzed them. So, I haven’t had to go in Jesus or you know, so in my woo lab in my garage, I’ve analyzed and you know, I mean there’s these are peer-reviewed academic papers again NASA papers on a spoon like NASA, but you know, they did could work.

And also we’ve got independent universities geologist, it’s not one is not one organization, right? There’s lots of different people who looked at us like Tech. For lots of reasons as I say, he’s even got a signature in there in the isotopic ratios that it is alien material into this solar system, right?

So that again is another important point that it’s easy. Not even the makeup of the object is also not in line with asteroids comets or meteorites that we know again. It’s got a strange. Ratio of different combat, lots lots of different chemicals in it, but strange ratios of chemicals again. So there’s a lot of reasons for them to say that this isn’t you know, a standard object.

Yeah, and the fact that it’s has silica from melted quartz again signature of that. This is a very strange thing to be orbiting our planet this huge chunk of of silicon and aluminium, but with a lot of. Sub compounds that what the heck is it doing that, and then you as you trace that down you can always imagine this thing coming in over at like Antarctica and breaking up and you can see the larger this with these pieces from space until it starts to hit the atmosphere and then you get a different get the aerial burst and then at the very end of the trail you get these strange and long layering, which I assume is.

The closest to the undamaged material that we’re going to get these are the final chunks if you like or the molten material that is ended up right at the end of that decreasing flight path, right so we can trace it all the way down from Antarctica to Laos as it breaks up and comes in very, very strange but absolutely a mesh is so well because we also told in this download that the escape craft land in South Australia now if they’re fleeing from.

Exploding craft. I’m thinking they’re not traveling too far. You know, he’s like get to the ground. It’s quick as you can

Alex Tsakiris: [01:02:35] again Star Wars we hate to do it. But I mean, this is right out of Star Wars you got the mothership and then you got the other ship. You hear it from UFO accounts all the time.

There’s the big ship and then there’s the little ships and that’s what you’re saying happened. Yeah, let’s jump forward in the story before we run out of time because you’ll we’ve talked about I think if people are following. I don’t know how good of a job I’m doing a helping them do that.

Probably not we talked about the chicken and the chimps and how that gets us to 780,000 years. Now. We just talked about the tektite and how that unbelievably gets us to 780,000 years, but there’s another part of the story that you amazingly again. You just went out and look for. Just tell the story about the tractor beam tell us where that fits into again our Hollywood movie and then where the evidence is for it.

Bruce Fenton: [01:03:35] Yeah, I’m absolutely and I will quickly says well from what I understand Valerie actually has had at least one person come to her and torture about possibly making a movie and I actually think they would be a brilliant movie absolutely brilliant. Right because he is is actually is action packed.

You know, it’s not just that we’ve discovered nearly scientific nominees, but you know, it’s actually it’s an extraordinary story in its own right? But yeah with the tractor beam part basically that we are told that five years after these events happened another group of extraterrestrials associated with these colonists if you like or scientists arrived to Earth.

And that these are a kind of police force they are associated with this Alliance but rather than being the peaceful colonists that have arrived initially these are kind of your Cosmic cops have some sort right that they come armed there is repercussions against this betrayal so they warned the inhabitants of Earth that are the current you know inhabit deserve that they should leave as per the original.

That they have destroyed, a peaceful Colony ship broken the treaty and that there’s gonna be consequences and so to leave immediately or face a planetary bombardment now is explained that this planetary bombardment is not a laser beams or anything the conventional that we feel like that then what they do is in a pulley and asteroids and that they will utilize those to bombard a planet’s surface and they clarify that if we need to we can pull in something big enough to crack a planet over.

Right. So this is worse than nuclear warfare. They can just wipe out your planet if they want to and it makes you think he’s like the dinosaurs, was that deliberate? Who knows but they say they’re quite capable of pulling in objects like that. They then go about this bombardment right at the underground bases of this second party.

I sort of targeted. There’s a pulverizing of the planet. I assume that something like that would be well known that you know, we’d have heard of it in the same way that we’ve heard of the the extinction of the dinosaurs that this would be like, oh and then of course there was another event like this 780,000 years ago that we don’t know it so I was quite skeptical that I would find anything to support this but I went away and looked and it turned out that you just I think it’s in 2015.

I’m pretty sure 2015 a German geological team had basically uncovered evidence of a multi-directional planetary bombardment by asteroids height, which had led to a global cataclysm Firestorm tsunamis earthquakes 41:15. No one knew that keep in mind that there were dealing with a book publishing 2003.

So there’s no way that very could have gone out and looked this up and just include the X it would be exciting. Nobody knew. And it’s so weird again another anomaly because you expect an asteroid on its own to come in. You don’t expect many of them to hit from different sides of the planet at the same time and even take the composition seems to be different.

It’s not from one breaking up asteroid. These are separate often. Pulled it.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:06:33] So that some wins is the reporting this are going. Wow, again, like your tektite thing they’re going to another this is an incredible anomaly and accessible mystery. How could this ever happened? And you’re sitting back there going?

Well, this is exactly what

Bruce Fenton: [01:06:47] I don’t see magic for. Yep, and it’s an anomaly on normally because you know, we’ve already got you know, you’ve got this anomalous object and how it breaks up. We’ve got this, now we got this anomalous bombardment and then of course we’ve got. Normally, he’s in the genome which we know we’ve tackled some of those but there are more and that the dating again for the important most important changes in early hominins that lead to us.

They again tied to this period around 780,000 years ago. Now that was one of the crucial things for me is that if I could find the evidence to support any this narrative, he also had to be in the same time zone right? Because it’s no good. Just saying that 500,000 years ago. There was a bombardment a.

Is ago there was a silica craft to be a true story all of the major events have to be happening at the same time. Right? And that’s what I found that they are

Alex Tsakiris: [01:07:41] right. So maybe we’ve left a big we’ve implied this other part of the story, but I think we probably should should go ahead and get to it because as the story moves on and I’ll let you tell it.

These beings

they land in Australia and they say wow, we can’t really fulfill our original Mission, but we can kind of get there by doing some genetic engineering genetic manipulation, which we this is like we’re going to have to have so many interviews on this or maybe we’ll make the movie you and I together will talk about that.

But but they’re thing is like. Okay, we do this all the time like this isn’t if you really wrap your head around what you’re saying. You have to accept that. This is just kind of how stuff works. They know about the planet long before this. They may be visited it long before this. This is just one event that happened some hundred and eighty thousand years ago.

They weren’t able to completely fulfill their mission. So they kind of went into this mode. Okay? Well, let’s do the thing how we do the genetic engineering and how we did it over there and we’re always doing genetic engineering and it’s been done. We do it another beings and consciousness of olives and it goes into all these different things and hey, let’s see how it works here.

And what I thought was particularly interesting here because it reshapes our understanding is this idea of the garden. So if you could bite off all that stuff that that I’m saying on behalf of you and Valerie then what do you do, you got this planet and you have these kind of different beings that are running around that maybe you had a part of in the distant past but right now you’re ready to do something. I haven’t done a very good job of explaining the story but pick it up there with maybe this idea of the garden.

Bruce Fenton: [01:09:30] Yeah. Sure. I mean, that’s right. I mean that’s another argument that people say well, how are you is wouldn’t come here.

If they don’t know we’re here, excetera said no no is explained in the beginning that this is a plant has been seen. You know, this is being seeded by DNA by Barnes beings in the beginning, so the beings out there are well aware of Earth, he’s been a planet chosen to be seated.

Okay that there have been beings on this planet in the remote prehistory. Again that have lived here that are we would see them extraterrestrials are they if they lived here long enough you could argue there is terrestrial as we are right? So again, There’s argument for that but they’re they have played around with the DNA.

And if at least there is explained that at some point this planet was lost to this other party after the seeding and this other party played games with genetics created dinosaurs did all sorts of stuff and that later on we have this transfer back and this is what this agreement was about this returning the planet back to this Alliance.

And then obviously this betrayal so there’s been a lot of going on on this planet long before this that we’re just dealing with the the event has most evident, right? They said there’s a lot more that’s happened right from the beginning. It’s always been a garden always been DNA being manipulated and whatnot creating.

The first hominins was a manipulation right the homo erectus being raised up from those hominins and being a larger brain. The earliest kind of I guess recognizable humans again that someone had a role in that and that now it’s 780,000 years ago. A different party is saying well our planners and we worked out of colonizing but what we’re going to do instead.

I’m going to use what’s left of our Technologies to upgrade the hominin that’s here. And we’re going to utilize it to continue our planner essentially colitis while taking over this planet back to Alliance control and that we’re going to use these beings almost as biological space suits. Now. This is some of the people who struggle with a bit but it only knows Tibetan Buddhism and the the idea of directed incarnations or directed.

Actions that some people not just aliens, but some people can direct their next life and I reincarnate as far as I’m concerned. It’s been established by the work of Professor is Stevenson in Stevenson. Thank you. If even leading Skeptics have looked as work say, they have to say well, yeah, it’s his work is his rigid is solid is totally scientific, but we don’t believe reincarnation because if they’re unable to accept.

He’s evidence, right not because he’s evidence has anything wrong with it. Yeah, so as far as I’m concerned, it’s established that reincarnation is real. Now these being say well they can incarnate into these humans as they dying, they cannot survive here because the atmosphere is not right for them.

The solar radiation is not right. There’s bacteria in the water all sorts of problems you imagine if you were marooned on a world right? It’s you were not raised live on so they have those real-world issues what they can do is create. And organism which they themselves can utilize and they can then move into as they die.

And that’s exactly what they

Alex Tsakiris: [01:12:37] do and just let me jump in there. This is kind of a little bit of inside baseball and we’re gonna have another engine interview and include the end of cone here in tears because there’s so much to talk about but I’m not sure. I’m totally I’m on board with part of what you’re saying.

But again, it’s the balancing of the metaphysical extended Consciousness and this narrow idea of time space has to be incorporated in because we don’t really know. Reincarnation means and what you know purpose of that and if there is either because there may be some cases where there’s this higher spiritual purpose and there could be another way that there’s just kind of a technic more of a technological kind of I move my spirit from here to there.

We don’t know if it’s a mixture of that or what it means. We don’t know what the goal would be. You know, some people could pick that apart and go well a directed reincarnation. How does that really get you where you want to go? Well, we don’t know where you want to go. You know what? The goal would be.

I think what’s important is we just hold the idea, we can go down all these pads and we have to but hold to the idea of what you’re saying is that it is not it is reasonable to throw that on the table and say that there could be a purpose that would make it reasonable to. prune the Garden in such a way that the certain.

Species evolve in a way that is a merger of the genetic makeup of both parties wean the might not understand Mind Of God what that purpose was or Mind of a I what that purpose was was but it’s not unreasonable to assume that I don’t think

Bruce Fenton: [01:14:18] we’ll know and again what they say it’s for and if they can say it’s that we can’t substantiate and we can’t know that that’s not just.

What they would like us to think on that particular thing because you can’t substantiate it. Well you say that in there download they explain that that’s part of why they’re doing it. There’s other reasons as well. Yeah that are more complex into bigger Vision things about this sector of space the other entities.

They’re here what role this planet would play why they would want a sort of foothold here. So there’s a larger narrative they offer but you can’t really substantiate that unlike the debris unlike the genetic again because then you’re dealing with what they say. It’s for not necessarily what it’s for.

So we have to acknowledge that the way you can’t substantiate then you just have their version of why. They doing it so you could call it. It could be propaganda. Right? It could be real could be program because there’s some parts, of course the narrative that you can’t easily just validate, you can’t find a physical thing to validate something which is just their opinion on what will happen by doing this right but what you know what


Alex Tsakiris: [01:15:22] But what you can do, and I think it’s important to, I’d love for you to speak to this for a minute, the garden model that you’re kind of outlining, does solve for a lot of kind of nagging problems that people have run into when they speculate about, particularly genetic engineering by non-human intelligence. They run into problems, “Well, they would just kind of do it this way or that way.” Like in particular what you point out is, you really couldn’t factor in for everything, you couldn’t factor into natural catastrophes; the changing of the sun or you get hit by meteor, you know, stuff happens. You can’t completely control the process of evolution and natural selection, genetic mutation, you can’t completely control that. And what it moves you into, I think, naturally, is what you’re outlining here, it’s like, “Hey, well, that’s what a gardener does.” One year he gets a drought, like he lives through it and he lives for the next year one year. One year he gets a mutation that doesn’t quite go his way and doesn’t produce any fruit, okay, he lives with it, he kind of goes. When you switch into that model, it gives us a different way of thinking about non-human intelligence and their role in doing genetic engineering, it makes sense what you’re saying.

Bruce Fenton: [01:16:42] Yeah, because we do it, don’t we? Like you say, if we have a garden, we will, we’ll hybridize, we modify, we direct breeding, we do all sorts of stuff to leave things how we want it in our garden, and we will weed the garden when we need to.

If we look at some of the cataclysms in the past, we have no way to know whether these are are all incidental or whether they’re directed, because there have certainly been periods where strange things have happened. I mean, there’s the Cambrian explosion, which is obviously a big issue, where certainly loads of life-forms come out of nowhere. But conversely there’s also die-offs, where we’ve been reduced down to tiny numbers. Is that again, is that to direct certain groups to survive while others are removed? We don’t know, but we do understand, if you are gardening, that sometimes you weed the garden. So are there times when certain species are removed and certain populations of people even? And I say people, going back obviously long periods, it could be 100 thousand years ago, but even more recently, up to say 70,000 years ago, there was a huge die-off, a climate event, Lake Toba. All sorts of things that happened and we were reduced to a small population.

Again, I’m left wondering with some of these, are they all just natural events? They could be, or are some of these deliberate, that, “Hey, we’ll rain down a virus that will remove such and such groups of people or such and such animals and they will be removed,” because they’re being a problem? We have to ask ourselves that once you put in an intelligence that is godlike, in terms of its abilities, it’s not what we think of as a true god, but it can do incredible magical things, then you have to relook at all of history and ask yourself, “Would any of these events fit with the influences of a power like that?”

Alex Tsakiris: [01:18:23] The die-off of the Neanderthal is one thing that a lot of people have pointed at and said, “Why doesn’t that survive?” In a lot of ways seems to be more fit for survival and yet we have this huge die-off. I mean there’s many, many examples of this stuff.

Bruce Fenton: [01:18:38] Yeah and I think that shaping. 70,000 years ago there’s this radical event that kills off most humans, certainly in the northern hemisphere. I think that does shape modern humans. I think that the survivors of that event are pushed together and is the final hybridization of the ancient hominins, which gives rise to modern humans. Before that there are no true modern human, not fully behaviorally anatomically modern humans, not until 70,000 years ago. And I’ll argue, definitely argue that, people can have a look. And in fact, the cultural revolution begins after 70,000 years ago, where we start producing all of this complex art where we link different things together, like reticular language, all these things start to emerge.

I believe that’s the coming together, the survivors of the Denisovans and Neanderthals, and probably dozens of other groups that we don’t know yet because we don’t have their DNA on record. That modern humans are a hybrid, probably of dozens of populations.

And so the idea that modern humans existed alongside Neanderthals and Denisovans at the beginning, I think is a misnomer. We’re going to slowly see that we actually are the combination of probably 10, 20, 30 populations that have yet to get names because we haven’t found their bones or their DNA, but we know already we are not a singular pure subspecies, whatsoever, that we’ve got at least about six different archaic hominis DNA in us so far, spread between different populations.

So I think that, again, you could ask yourself, was that a deliberate event? Is that the final push that, “Hey we’ve got all of these different groups. Let’s get the best of all of them into one population. Let’s do something that shapes that and makes that happen. Oh, a cataclysm, that will push them together.” We don’t know. Once you’ve got that kind of model behind you, you think someone else is watching from the skies and you see these, sort of almost convenient, for them, type events, that if you are looking for a final superior model by bringing them together near the end, well that just about fits what we’re seeing on the ground.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:20:32] And there’s so many points to cover there, but this model that you’re putting forward, as I mentioned, I think helps move us towards being able to answer some of these questions. It’s an impossible model for 99% of people out there to even approach, but that’s too bad, you know, we just have to kind of push forward with what we have. But what I particularly like about the garden idea, the garden metaphor, is it incorporates all of what you’re saying, but it also incorporates more, which we’ll touch on maybe when we talk again.

But the abduction phenomenon is something that we have to, kind of deal with and understand, so we have that as well. So the garden would suggest I’m doing all of those things. I’m pushing groups together. I’m separating groups. There are natural catastrophes that I’m kind of engineering, there are also natural catastrophes that I’m not engineering and then every once in a while, I’m doing a specific crisper of my own making, you know, going in there and kind of tweaking. And only when you put all of that stuff on the table can you start piecing together something that really incorporates in a lot of the data that we have, and you don’t wind up telling stupid stories about how tsunamis drifted people out in the ocean.

Bruce Fenton: [01:21:48] Sure, and those should be the stories that people should be actually saying is ridiculous, but because of the appeal to authority that goes on, some that we could say that someone would say is ludicrous, yet if an academic said it they’d say, “Well, that seems quite reasonable,” and conversely an academic can say something totally ludicrous that if you or I came up with people would think was so stupid. It’s an unfair balance, because if something’s ridiculous, it’s ridiculous. If it doesn’t have evidence, it doesn’t have evidence. It doesn’t matter whether it’s a leading academic saying it or whether it’s us saying it. It has to be reasonable and it has to be supportable. So no matter how whacky things sound at the onset, as long as you can drill down and say, “Well actually, this is reasonable, there’s support,” then it’s okay. If it doesn’t have that then it’s beliefs, isn’t it? It’s just wild beliefs. You can believe a tsunami carried people, there’s no evidence, but it’s a wild belief that you can hold if you want to. And I think people need to look at it a bit more like that, so you can say, “Well, what you’re saying Bruce is really wild stuff.” Yeah, okay, but it’s supportable wild stuff, it’s not stuff that’s divorced from real world evidence and when we talk about the HARs, but it’s not just that. So we could go away and say, “Okay, well we’ve found these differences for a chimp and it was really weird,” but it’s not, there’s far more than that. I know that we haven’t got much time, but I say that we’ve got genes that literally appear out of the non-coding DNA. These academics try and say, “They just appear, suddenly, foully formed out of the non-coding DNA and happen to give us the neocortex,” or something, “and this one, it looks like it’s been cut, copied and put back in.” A guy says xerox, “It looks like it’s been xeroxed.” When an academic uses a term like, “It’s been xeroxed,” are they trying to tell us something because to me that’s an implicitly strange thing to say, “It looks like it’s been taken out, cut, xeroxed, put back in,” what are you trying to tell me here?

And then elsewhere you’ve got this fusion of chromosome 2, which yes, chromosomes can fuse, but this one has fused on an active gene which is to do with our reproduction system, immune system, our brain, again the brain. And then you find all of these anomalies between us and chimps, they’re all clustering in the brain. What’s the chances? You say, random mutation. Random mutation, well I would expect to see changes in the kidneys, the leg, the stomach, the eyes. That’s random. Hundreds of changes that give us our brain, our modern, complex, super computer brain, that doesn’t look random anymore. When you find they’re not just in the genes but they’re in these switches as well, and throughout the system you’re finding what looks like bizarre changes throughout the genetic system, that have gone about creating our brain and this brain is not a clear advantage when it first begins, now we can say it is. But we lost energy going to our muscles, at a time when were were fighting tooth and claw to survive. What was the benefit of this fledgling brain that was giving…?

Alex Tsakiris: [01:24:36] Reproduction, it’s a real hindrance. 

Bruce Fenton: [01:24:40] It’s a hindrance. Suddenly, you’ve got all of the other creatures around you essentially become stronger, because you’re becoming weaker and you’re yet to develop even stone tools or bows and arrows. You’ve got nothing particularly that’s compensating. So suddenly you’re a weakening creature given giving energy to a calorie hungry brain.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:24:58] And then you have a larger head that won’t pass through the birth canal, there’s more death at birth.

Bruce Fenton: [01:25:06] That seems to get weirdly fixed as well, because then we become a highly neotenous creature, which means that we retain the characteristics of an unborn fetus when we’re born. We’re essentially a fetus. So they’ve gone around the problem by making us be born earlier and then the brain continues to develop at the same rate but outside the womb. And again, these are sorts of suspicious strange changes and we have gone and become more and more neotenous.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:25:30] And they’re suspicious for a couple of reasons. We’re just going to jam a bunch of stuff in here at the end. But like, you go and watch your National Geographic show and you see the little deer that’s born and an hour later, they’re up and running around. That doesn’t exactly happen with humans. So that’s not really an advantage.

Bruce Fenton: [01:25:48] With chimps, we are close relatives and if you look at the agony of childbirth and the deaths in childbirth amongst humans versus chimps and other primates, they don’t really have those problems, they don’t really have them. They have a shorter childbirth, it’s very rare for them to die in it, it’s usually not agonizingly painful and there are sweeps of strange errors as well. Not just upgrades, but strange errors, particular in our reproductive systems. So women, how they feel like, “Oh, I’m cursed by God,” or something, having these problems, no, there are weird errors that mean that we are handicapped in that and it’s so common to have spontaneous abortion, early stages, and difficulty with pregnancy.

They found that there are loads of genetic anomalies, which are different to the other primates, which only exist in us. And some of these are very baffling changes because at the end of the day, reproduction is the key, isn’t it? So, that you would develop a change in your DNA that makes you less able to reproduce and yet it persists, is a bizarre anomaly, because you’re actually worsening, as a species, technically, versus everyone else, and yet those things are persisting. So there must be benefits that came alongside the time that those horrible mutations happened.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:27:01] That could take us in the wrong way. I mean, I know exactly what you’re saying, but not necessarily benefits. That’s what we’re saying, it could be from the outside, someone is saying, “I want to engineer it this way.” So the gardener’s benefits aren’t nature’s benefits.

Bruce Fenton: [01:27:17] Not necessarily.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:27:18] Yeah, and we’ve got to not mix those two together because normally, when we talk about benefits, we talk about natural selection and abilities. But we’re not talking about those kinds of benefits, we’re just talking about someone wanted it that way.

Bruce Fenton: [01:27:28] Well, it could be though, because you think, if you have genetic changes that are done, they may have more than one effect. So let’s say that they do confer a benefit to you, somewhere else in your system, but they come with a horrible negative, where you end up with some other problem, but because the advantages was so good, you go on carrying the damage as well with it. So this is a problem and it will take a long time to fix that, and we haven’t had long enough.

So if this really happened 780,000 years ago, evolution’s not had enough time to address all of these problems. So there are things that may over time, we’ll start to see some of these things fade, but it takes a long time. Evolution is, say the blind watchmaker or whatever, he doesn’t go in and say, “Well, let’s just fix these errors.” People have to die-off because of them etc.

So we may find that what’s happened is alongside the upgrades, some of these things came along with it, but the upgrades were so, you could say beneficial, that they have compensated for the downgrade elements, and that again is an anomaly that people need to look at and say, “Well yeah, why would we evolve to have a more difficult reproductive system that doesn’t really function properly versus all of the other primates?” It’s stuff like that that I’d like people to also focus on, not just we’ve got a bigger brain and that’s the anomaly, like no, there’s a large list of anomalies in the human genome.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:28:48] Well Bruce, we could go on and on, there’s so much that people are going to want to check out on all three of those books. The newest book, I have up on the screen, Exogenesis: Hybrid Humans. Please go and pre-order it, it’s not out for a few more months, but it does a good job of pulling together a lot of the information from the other two books. And largely, your work which people can find, tell us how people can catch up with and stay up with what you’re doing, and what you’re doing next, and how we’re going to get more of this information out, because you and I have to have to make sure that this gets out to as many people as we can.

And I didn’t do my job at the beginning of this show. I said, I was going to shoot down your theories and I just fell into making it a big love fest and I apologize to everyone who’s listening. So, please, shoot this guy down, tell him where he’s wrong, tell me where he’s wrong, straighten me out because I’ve fallen for it hook, line and sinker. I think it’s hugely important, so correct me on that.

But I digress, Bruce, tell us where we can follow what you’re doing.

Bruce Fenton: [01:29:57] Yeah, if you would like to catch up with me, I’m generally on Twitter. You’ll find me there under Exogenesis, my handle there. Also, I am on Facebook, I don’t use it an awful lot. I have websites,,, and, I control all of those.

I’ve recently been on Ancient Aliens and I believe I’m in another episode coming up fairly soon and I should be at Contact in the Desert next year, all being well, that’s a few months away, so if people want to see me there. I’m based in the UK obviously, so I’m not in the US a lot, so that would be an opportunity for people to come and, I don’t know, thank me or shout at me, depending on what they feel about this. I guess those are probably the best places to follow me and if anyone has any feedback, also ideas of how to get the information out, I would appreciate that as well.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:30:52] Awesome. It’s been just terrific having you on and interacting with you on the forum has been great too. So I know we’ll stay in touch. Thanks again so much.

Bruce Fenton: [01:31:02] Thank you. It’s been brilliant. Thanks a lot.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:31:05] All right, buddy. I don’t know if I did the job here, but hey, I would love …

Bruce Fenton: [01:31:14] It’s difficult condensing it.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:31:14] It is. I want to help get this out. I’m totally sincere about that. Tell me who’s been approaching you that I can help make some kind of, you know, mini documentary or film or something. You must know some people. I know you know some people who have come to you and said, “Bruce, this is important.” Let me help make that happen.

Bruce Fenton: [01:31:38] Well, I don’t know. My literary agent has tried, he’s reached out to a couple of people. We tried Prometheus because of Ancient Aliens. They passed on it, I think perhaps because they feel like some of it… They haven’t said why, but I suppose some of the topics in it they’ve covered in other episodes, so maybe they didn’t want to.

Also, I think he’s tried a couple of other production companies, but we haven’t, at the moment, got anyone. I tried reaching out to Gaia because I know that they cover strangeness and they said at the moment they’re not taking external stuff, it’s just whatever they come up with in-house, to do. They’ve said that might change is just you know, whatever they come up with in-house to do. They’ve said, “Look, that might change, we might come back to you.”

So no there’s nothing. I really think it needs to be in a visual format, to be honest, and I don’t, at this point, d have anyone to do that. I’m going to probably try to do some, I don’t know, video or YouTube or something, to try and get some information out. But it really needs to have a professional documentary team, or someone put this together.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:32:36] Right, agreed. Well, let’s just put some thought and energy into it. So, I’m interested in helping fund that. I’m not worried about the return on it, I’m interested in the information reaching people. So please consider me as a resource in that way and I will try and, you know…

Bruce Fenton: [01:32:59] If you’ve got ideas about how that can be done or even an initial teaser promo kind of show, where we give something, anything, because I realize visual format, as well of course, a lot of people are now downloading audio, but those are the two formats I don’t really cover very well, apart from interviews. There are a lot of people who won’t have this information. Even people I talk to online, they say because it’s not on Audible or it’s not on YouTube or something, that they haven’t really accessed it. So yeah, any ideas that you have about ways to address that, even if it’s in small serialized parts, dealing with aspects of it, or anything like that, or if you know people that do that.

Obviously, I guess there are people that can be hired to come and film me in the UK, whatever, make interviews about it, but anything like that. Whether it’s a series of interviews or a full documentary, I don’t know. But yeah, at the moment my resources just aren’t there to do it. As I said to you before, that’s my problem.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:33:57] We’ll get it done. We’ll figure out a way to get it done. It hits all of the buttons, it’s like the most important thing and it’s super interesting, and it’s like cinema’s just too. It’s it hits all the buttons. It’s like the most important thing and it’s super interesting. It’s and it’s like cinema graphic. We’ll get it done.

Alright my man.

Bruce Fenton: [01:34:13] Okay. I appreciate anything you come up with, like say, it would be really cool and yeah, I hope it will get out there. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:34:22] I hope it will too. You’re fantastic.

Bruce Fenton: [01:34:23] And if you want to do a more esoteric one another time, just let me know. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:34:28] We will, and I’ll just figure out a way to… I’m intrigued by this other idea. I’ll move as quick as I can on it.

Bruce Fenton: [01:34:38] Okay, yeah, let me know. As I say, I’m open to, in whatever format. If you have ideas of different formats that might work, then yeah, we can go from there and have a look at it and see what will work.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:34:49] Great. I don’t have any goal other than to help you get it out there. So we’ll just work together.

Bruce Fenton: [01:34:53] Yeah, I’m struggling with that. Even just to get the press to cover the Into Africa thing, failure. Forbes did one article, deleted it in three hours. So, I mean, at the moment, my access to the greater media is just the kindness of various radio show hosts really, and a few guest articles on independent media. So that’s it, and obviously that’s not going to reach enough people.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:35:19] Awesome. Alright.

Bruce Fenton: [01:35:20] Thank you.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:35:23] Take care.

Bruce Fenton: [01:35:24] I’ll speak to you again soon.

[01:35:26] Thanks again to Bruce Fenton for joining me today on Skeptiko. As you can tell, I was quite enthusiastic about Bruce’s theories and his research, so I have one basic question to tee up. What if Bruce and Daniella Fenton are right?

Now one of the reasons, I have to tell you, I was so enthusiastic about this interview is because of all of the great input I got from Skeptiko listeners through the Skeptiko Forum before this interview, and I’m hoping we can pick up that dialogue now that this interview is published, because I plan on doing a lot more with Bruce and Danielle. I think the question, the hypothesis, the research that they propose is incredibly important, if it’s true, if and only if it’s inquiry to perpetuate doubt, Skeptiko style true.

So, do join me over in the Skeptiko Forum. Tell me what you think. Tell me how we would go about nudging towards the truth on this and then while you’re there, of course, check out the Skeptiko website where you’ll find all of these shows and all of our other shows; 420 or whatever of them, available for free download on MP3. You can download them, share them with other people you think would be interested in hearing this, and I hope you do that.

So again, you’re going to hear more from Bruce and Daniella. So stick around for that and stick around for some pretty interesting other shows I’m downplaying. I have some really good interesting shows coming up and some that are less interesting, but some really good ones.

Stick around for all of that, until next time, take care and bye for now.  [box]

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