Dr. Robert Davis, is a scientist who has deeply explored extended consciousness.

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[00:00:00] Alex Tsakiris: On, this episode of Skeptiko… A deep, deep dive. Into consciousness.

[00:00:08] Clip: Once you experience it, you can’t go back. You suddenly, you know, that reality. Unbelievably bizarre. And the dimensionality of consciousness is going to move us into advancing who we are as humans. But we await the paradigm shift, which is critical in terms of our understanding, the science of the subjective, integrating it with the science of the physical, in order to better understand consciousness reality.

And maybe a little bit more about what, what life and reality is, is all about====

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That’s today’s guest Dr. Bob Davis. Talking about his new movie, the consciousness connection.

Hold on tight. Lot of level three inside baseball to follow.

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[00:00:58] Alex Tsakiris: ====.

=Welcome to skeptical where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers and their critics.

I’m your host, Alex Kars. And today we welcome Dr. Bob Davis back to skeptical, you know, I just went and re-listed to episode four 19, when Bob was on, he was talking about his book unseen forces. And I was like, oh my gosh, how have I dropped the ball off? I not had this guy on since Bob is great. You’ll hear that again here, but go back and list that other interview.

I thought it was just a phenomenal interview that he gave. Uh, he’s incredibly smart. He is a real. Top notch scientist, like highly regarded in his field, PhD, Ohio state, multiple NIH grants, dozens and dozens of papers and presentations at top universities, Harvard, Cambridge, all that stuff. I mean, he is the real deal as a scientist in his field.

And I guess the reason that I emphasize that so much is because you are not gonna believe the conversation we’re about to have, this is a guy who should be super mainstream, keep it down the middle of the road, do what I’m told kind of thing. And he is not doing that at all. He’s talking about his contact experience that he had that led to his first book, the UFO phenomenon, an experience I should say, I should mention this.

I mentioned this in the previous episode. You know, there’s not a lot of people. Some, a lot of people say I saw UFO. There’s not a lot of people that say I had this vivid, very close encounter with the UFO, with my wife there. We both saw it for five to seven minutes. And then add to that. He’s gonna talk about near death experience because he had a near death experience.

Believe it or not. It led to his second book life after death. And then he kind of tied all that together into a book. The last book, the one that I said, we talked about in four 17 unseen forces. And you might even say that this book is tied to a Kini experience he had, and he does a beautiful job and a really unique, suddenly unique job of re understanding these extended consciousness experiences or recategorized them, I should say, as peak experiences.

And we won’t go into that. Cause that would just be kind of a rerun of the last interview. But what Bob has done there is given us a different way of really thinking about a lot of these different experiences and why are they peak experiences? Why are they so transformational? So go back, listen to that, read that book.

There’s a lot, lot to gained there, but there’s just so much to talk about today and he has a new film and we want to help him bring that film into reality is of course about consciousness, Bob. It’s fantastic having you back here. Thanks so much for joining me.

[00:04:11] Robert Davis: Hey, I can’t, I can’t follow up on that.

Thank you so much, Alex. I, I, I, that’s what I mentioned earlier. I I’ve listened to you for numerous years and, and, and you you’re at the top of my list. So, uh, it’s a, it’s an honor to be with you and, and let’s fr and all we’ll have, we’ll have a lot of fun with this.

[00:04:26] Alex Tsakiris: Great. Thank you. I think, you know, probably the.

Natural place to start is a movie. So you are now, uh, working on a movie. Tell us about it, tell us how it came to be. Uh, who’s working on it with you. I’ll pull up here so people can see, you know, some of the folks that you have associated with it. Many have been on skeptical. Many are just super top notch people, Jeff Long, Evan Alexander, uh, Dean Braden, Tom Campbell.

The list goes on and on and on. Tell us about the film.

[00:05:03] Robert Davis: , after I wrote my book on scene forces, the integration science reality in you, I felt a strong urge to share what I thought more strongly and, and doing way you can do with this, this year is to do it in the video. The first person I sent it to was located close to where I lived Dave batty of the Nimmin encounters fame.

He, he did that very popular TAC, uh, uh, documentary that treated almost 6 million hits already, but he, he read my book. We resonated. And now a year after that, we have established wonderful relations with many people who we’ve talked to like Dean Raden, um, Nu numerous other scientists, uh, like Tom Campbell, um, and, and, uh, Joe McGonigal, the remote viewer and hand the famous, uh, neurosurgeon who gave up his practice to, to, uh, spread the word.

After his, his near death experience, the list goes on and on, but the point is we’re trying to establish as best as we PO possibly can portray in an entertaining, understandable fashion with science and combining the objective with the subject of. Showing individuals who experience so-called peak experience, something that Maslow talked about, you know, a century ago, these, these epiphanous episodes that are transcendent and change us in dramatic ways.

Alter our belief systems. As you have often talked about, um, We want to portray that in a, in a objective as well as subjective integrate both because we lack that in our paradigm, we don’t regard the subjective element, the experience or of near death. Experience’s outta body UIP interactions. The list goes on and on, but they trigger a peak experience in people who have it.

And they’re, they’re very San individuals. Um, and we can talk a great deal about that, but how do you capture all of that? And we talk about multiple different disciplines that are poorly understood. We talk about consciousness. That consciousness connection at website is by the way, consciousness, film.info.

And if you resonate with what I’m talking about, what we’ll be talking about, please, you know, I hate to act like the, uh, typical producer. I was a scientist, obviously my whole life. And now my right brain takes over over a few extraordinary experiences, as you know, and. I go in a different direction now that I’m in retirement.

[00:07:43] Alex Tsakiris: You know what I want to, if you can have you sketch out those experiences and I’m tempted to kind of shift right past them. Yeah. But I know that, I know that that’s something that people are gonna be able to connect with on a very personal level, in terms of you having these experiences,

[00:08:02] Robert Davis: , it’s interesting. , you know, ask me what book I books I used to read as, as a young kid and, and my answer will be the 1963 Almanac.

And what’s the next popular book? 1964 world Almanac. You know what I mean? We’re talking to a left brain dude, open minded. I always believed in UFOs, you know, grew up in the sixties. How can you not with all that’s going on with the moonshot and, and, and media entertainment, uh, in sci-fi of course. So, uh, always had an open mind about that.

Uh, and then paranormal, but still I was a hardcore left brain scientific method, uh, material, not an interiorist per se in terms of research, a very objective of course, but there was a right side there. Dan, my wife and I in Sedona, Arizona, if you haven’t been there, go gorgeous, lovely comma. You know, Alex you’ve been there.

Uh, we were in, we were on, um, Help me the, the popular ranch there, uh, Brad or ranch that is known as a hotspot, so to speak, uh, suddenly at night two, but one orange job appeared. It was about a half mile away, 200 feet high, quite visible, uh, suddenly appeared it. Got my attention for some reason. I don’t know why I don’t normally look up, but nevertheless, staring at it, orange couldn’t look solid gases, you know, fluctuating as I was watching it.

However, another one either, either E emerge from within it or behind it, that was hard to distinguish. But now we have two of the same exact, completely circular. Not steroid or, you know, emotionless, soundless, uh, objects sitting side by side. I’m stunned. Um, no, no sense of communication. There are several minutes to wink out.

Goodbye left the impression , you know, morning coffees tasted quite different the next, next day, but I had to put, I had to get it out. Like many people do with fierce determination, have a type of peak experience that wasn’t a interaction kind of abduction thing as people, uh, report to have, but enough, nevertheless, just to, to put it in writing and, and it was always a writer more of course, scientific in nature.

So I did U of phenomenon, should I believe which I would modify greatly if I was riding it today, things the times have changed. I did that in 2014, that move on.

[00:10:24] Alex Tsakiris: , let’s not move on. Okay. To, I, I just, I just wanna emphasize a point because, you know, there’s, there’s like so many points like you and I could have really long discussions on all this stuff, but of course it’s changed cuz everything is changing and it’s a moving target and we are in the middle of that change.

We’ve gone. before disclosure to after disclosure to coin the term that Richard Dolan coined, everything has changed. So of course, things have changed for you. But the other thing that, that you kind of put your finger on that I think is so interesting. And the connection you make in the book, unseen forces, your third book right now, we just talked about your first book was.

This idea that the peak experience in and of itself is tricky and hard to hold onto and hard to identify in so many ways. And you almost gave a throwaway line that the coffee tasted different the next morning, that might be part of the quote unquote peak experience. You know, I interviewed Kevin Day, who is the guy who turned me onto Dave Beatty’s movie on the Nimitz.

And Kevin Day is in that movie cuz Kevin was the guy who was on board. The ship was directing. All the, all the pilots that went and saw the TicTacs. Right. And Kevin’s story. And I know you’ve heard this, but eventually he’s so curious as to what what’s going on. He goes up and he looks through the big glass on the ship and he cites, sees the UFOs and it changes for him.

He has a peak experience, even though he doesn’t realize he has a peak experience, he comes back, he has depression. He has all this other stuff, . So what you’re putting your finger on with this peak experience, thing is so tricky. And that’s what I think you do such a masterful job of throughout this work throughout this thread that you’re creating is giving us permission to think about these experiences.

differently and ask different questions. What do you think about that as it relates to that cup of coffee and Sedona? ,

[00:12:40] Robert Davis: you know exactly, it’s a, it’s a ego transcending moment. You, you’re not the sense of the universe for some reason, I it’s inevitable, but it alters your, your, your viewpoints and belief systems in dramatic ways on more than just your next day’s morning coffee, indeed.

, we know the statistics and people are, are, have spiritual emergencies because of this. You know, these kind of transformational episodes, uh, that can be quite unpleasant initially. Uh, and they come in all shapes and sizes that you talk about with many people on your shows. We talk the same language indeed with others, but the core feature it seems is that self transcendence, it gets city aspect of consciousness.

Of course, that El looses concept, like what is time? What is consciousness, which is discipline specific, but. People have always had these kinds of experiences, uh, religious texts, uh, folk law have dramatized this in varying ways, metaphorically speaking, but also in art and other ways that I know are debatable of controversial, but it’s hard not to, it’s hard to ignore.

, there seems to be an aspect of awareness or the subjective experience, the essence of it that can’t be portrayed in a mathematical formula. You know, that’s, that’s, Antonian physics and quantum processes, uh, uh, to, to real reality. In other words, is, is only true based on math and that kind of physical material observation.

Of course, we, we don’t integrate the subjective, the peak experience that we’re talking about and millions have it, it’s beyond, uh, it’s a spiritual transformative, whatever you wanna call it, we don’t have the proper terms. Of course, and consciousness is not. A proper term either because you, people don’t know how to define it, uh, to begin with, um, it’s all interrelated to some extent, but this, you know, the question is what is that subjective essence?

The thing is like, you know, there’s many levels of consciousness that, that I’m trying to portray in terms of my book, um, unseen forces, the integration of science reality and new, the subjective, which lacks tremendously in all these equations. And the subjective is part of the UAP. Like you’re talking about Kevin Day.

I’ve talked briefly with him. I know what you mean. I mean, it goes deep to phenomena and it’s not new. It obviously existed forever. How could it be new? Why would it be, why would it be new? When did it start? 1959, you know, crash landing. When you know when Roswell it’s always been here, questions, what is it?

I I’m writing an article right now. I know we going all over the place and I do apologize, but it’s all interrelated and it is confusing, but you can’t help. Look forward, try to integrate the pieces because I love track chest and my left brain now lightened up a little with my right brain. I had, I didn’t have a Kevin Day thing flying in a, in a, you know, fighter as a fighter pilot.

And seeing this thing go from from low space altitude to 80,000 feet down, down to 60, and then 50 feet and 0.7 seconds estimated GForce of 5,000 greater, you know, uh, I, you know, Kevin canoe that’s the computational physicist comes up with over 60,000 miles per hour, based on all the. Technical information that he could gather based on that TAC.

So what is, what the heck is that all about? No, you can’t rule rule out. Um, obviously advanced technology, of course you can’t entirely and you can go there too. Um, you can go to psych ops for some of his stuff. You can go all over the place and you can go to, why should I listen to anybody? You know, under the, that newly, that develops, uh, department under the DOD is that’s assigned the task to figure out what the heck UAP is.

You know, I mean, history dictates, you know, listen to them, but don’t listen to them. Don’t interpret everything literally, nor should we do. So in the same manner with, with spokespeople associated with the UAP, which of course is real, how can they, I mean, it took how many years for them to say it, you know, what should I do applaud right.

I can’t look at it seriously. We it’s so much MIS disin. We know the story, it’s a pseudoscience at best. There are attempts to make it a science. ,

[00:17:14] Alex Tsakiris: , hold on. Cause that one of the things you just said, there is something that you, I was going to say something that you play with, but that’s not a good term.

It’s more something that you struggle with. It’s more like we’re watching, Bob’s left brain switch over and then right. Brain switch over. We’re watching Bob go through the ego destruction, ego, disillusionment, ego dissolving. And then we’re seeing Bob reconstruct the ego and say, how do in the ego? And I don’t mean in an egotistical way.

I mean the ego and tree.

[00:17:51] Robert Davis: I became a tree hugger, Alex.

[00:17:52] Alex Tsakiris: , , but there’s also just science is ego, right? Science is I can measure, I can make a difference. I can do. , and, and then, so this gets into the real, really deep stuff with regard to consciousness, with regard to UAP, UFO, et, you know, it gets into the evil, you know, is this demonic?

What would even, what would that even mean? And then are we saying that the ego dissolution kind of suggests that all that is yet another drama that we don’t necessarily have to play and that we somehow transcend that and that comes through again. So I feel you, bro. I feel the complexity I applaud you for not.

Backing off, not trying to, you know, give us simple answers. Everything is nuanced, everything is complicated, everything is interconnected. And the, but the fundamental question that you ask in unseen forces, the third book is the question about reality and what are we looking at? Where do we stand relative to reality?

Do you wanna pick up that thread? Because I think that’s fundamental to this.

[00:19:06] Robert Davis: personally, I think there’s different kinds of reality. It, it intertwines, I consider it consciousness. , we call it reality. I’m not entirely sure, but, but look, , Everything is conscious. I do believe it’s, it’s related to, , information exchange I’m in that camp.

, there’s it, there’s, that’s minor. There’s a lot more than just saying that you bang your head on a table. You’re getting information. The table’s telling you don’t do it again. That’s the point. Everything is conscious. It’s giving you information one way or another. Let’s cut to the chase and they even try to quantify it using a pH I, you know, uh, quantification system, um, there’s different types of consciousness and exists as a subatomic level.

We can get into detail about that with the observer effect, the wave, the wave power duality issue and, and how the subjective, mental intention, observation, all that, uh, disrupts it, influences it. The point is reality. Consciousness is it’s physical. It is it’s mathematically derived on paper. Brilliant minds, bomb Einstein.

They describe math, you know, mathemat equations that describe the universe, but where are they coming from? They’re brilliant minds, but they’re not dancers singers. And you know, they’re mathematicians theoretical physicists. So you’re gonna get an answer that like time doesn’t, it is an illusion. It is, it is information exchange exists at the cosmological level.

It does. And the question is, does that interact with the body? A, a consciousness component that some people, theoretically, speaking of course, think it may be the case. You know, that torsion energy you could even go there. The point is where’s the interconnection between cosmic consciousness that exists on paper.

, time is an illusion and that is a physical reality, but it’s, we forget about the subjective aspect of reality and consciousness, the way, the way you put it. My, my memory’s on the past. It influences present, right? I, a lot of pain time goes slow. I’m having a great time. Time goes fast. We don’t acknowledge the subjective aspect,

[00:21:26] Alex Tsakiris: Bob, the way you put it in the book and I’m struggling to remember exactly it was, are we in reality or are we on the other side of reality, you know, and it gets into this kind of creating consciousness.

I also think of a, a Dr. Bernardo Castro, I think does an excellent job and says we are in consciousness. It’s not that we are, you know, so, and I think I, again, I wish I could recall exactly the phrase that you use, but what I took out of that. Is this idea that , that maybe our vantage point when we talk about reality is significantly different than what we ordinarily assume that it is. And that has to do with this whole dissolution to the ego. That, that, cuz what I hear is this not contradiction, but when the ego dissolves all that other stuff just kind of goes away.

Well, I get it

[00:22:18] Robert Davis: yet. Then this exactly. Then, then the, the subjective reality or the subjective aspect of consciousness, which is different than the physical or it can be, it can be integrated with the physical something is causing or triggering. That subjective change in your reality. In other words, my personal belief systems are altered.

We hear this all the time from people who, who have various PE peak experiences near death. Again, not a body, uh, the shamonic journeys, even, even psychedelic drugs can may very well induce this ego dissolution. They all seem to cause that cell transcendence sparked by an ego dissolution, you know, and you go into the literature of ego dissolution, obviously that’s, that’s the subjective.

I hear you. You’re exactly right on. Um, um, but it’s integrated obviously with the physical and then because we have a brain and it, we have a, a reducing valve with trace the brain. So it takes that information limited in nature, filtered considerably by each of our sensory modalities. Of course it only see a piece of the physical true reality in a sense, the body provides us with an aspect of an illusion.

In a sense, cause we’re just seeing, it’s like the web tele telescope, you know, the pictures they show, like they say, it’s like holding a piece of rice up, you know, it’s only a piece there’s so much more to reality. Well, the same here too, in a sense.

[00:23:45] Alex Tsakiris: I gotta stop you there because I thought that was such a brilliant point when I ran across it.

And again, it’s gonna be a throwaway moment. If we don’t talk about it, but the light bulb went off for me. When you said what you just said, if the brain is this reduction valve, which we hear and it’s way overused, then that is also designed by this overall subjective experience. It isn’t just creating the subjective experience.

It is in some way, connected to that subjective experience in a way that we can’t totally pull apart either. And that’s the point you were making that you go, oh my gosh, this is every time I wanna pin it down. I have to kind of again, pull myself back out of it. Right. Do you wanna elaborate? Yeah,

[00:24:36] Robert Davis: exactly.

To me, the brain impedes our ability to see true, true reality. Without question, ,

[00:24:43] Alex Tsakiris: , the next level of that is why is the brain impeding or cuz impeding is just two sides of the same coin impeding or opening.

Why is it doing it this way? Why is it doing it that way? What dance is it doing with consciousness in order for us to create these kind of experiences? What dance is it doing with an octopus versus a dog versus the rest of that? That’s where you sent me with, instead of just thinking this very simplistic, oh, it’s a valve.

This and that. It’s like, no, it is somehow dancing this dance with this. That’s creating our questioning and our view of it. Do you get what I mean? Because I got it from you. I’m not making this stuff up.

[00:25:32] Robert Davis: The point is we, we, we are slaves to it. , and there may very well be ways in which, , the brain can be taught or experience something that integrates with the essence of who we are.

We are the brain we’re symbiotic with the brain. We need the brain. Let’s love the brain let’s eat. Right. Let’s keep the body fit, all that sort of stuff. So to, so, but it’s evolutionary it’s which separates all species as for those who believe in that, uh, you know, life development, as opposed to a religious, you know, spin on it.

Um, our bodies represent the. We are designed for a 3d physical reality in, in an, in habitable type of planet. This is in a, this is in a perfectly habitable planet take metaphor, especially when you’re walking, you know, in Northern New York with a, you know, in January, but it’s habitable. um, and, and, and we simply evolved physi physiologically brain too, of course, and adapt appropriately shaped accordingly, uh, in many different ways.

And here we are, we’re still evolving, but it for this planet, but it seems maybe all in humanoid may be a common type of physical, you know, structure as people report anecdotal evidence. Of course, I don’t wanna, you know, get, get into that tumor. We can touch upon that even not in human television beings that people report to interact with, but we’re a product of the primarial soup and, and the lightning bolt that, that provided the electromagnetic energy that, that sparked supposedly life and is still controversy associated with that.

Of course.

[00:27:25] Alex Tsakiris: So back to the film, the film leans on near death experience science, it must lean on your death experience science, because that is some of the most important and powerful, , science that we’re getting back about this extended consciousness realm and how we should understand it.

Jeff Long, Evan Alexander others. What are your thoughts from big picture down to the details that we’re struggling with in terms of how we understand near death experience inside of the larger umbrella of peak experiences, how are you tackling that in the film?

[00:28:04] Robert Davis: Well, it’s funny you mention that because, , coincidentally, maybe synchronistically, I don’t know how, how to, how to interpret that, but we’ll be interviewing and Alexander and as I previously mentioned, uh, but it’s worth repeating now again or early August.

And, and I’ve talked with him before, along with Jeff Long, who’s also gonna be an, our documentary two leading researchers in the area of NDE. You’ve mentioned it several times, of course. And near that experience of research foundation know Jeff Long runs. And if anybody wants to understand NDE, uh, go to, uh, the archives of, of people providing their qualitative descriptions, the essence of their NDE, uh, there’s thousands of them over a thousand, at least, uh, that’s a study in and of itself.

Again, we lack that, that qualitative aspect to NDE. You understand? We don’t understand true reality, UN UN unless we understand. What sense of reality are they talking about? We don’t have the words, the definitions, we, the terms. So language is not, has not developed matured enough, linguistically semantically to capture the essence of that subjective EST, uh, feeling of that NDE and OBE and other peak peak experiences, um, provide to the person.

And it varies personality of course, too. But, um, the NDE gives us yes, uh, exceptional evidence, um, for that elusive is their life after death question, which we have always, um, contemplated and for good reason. Um, and only anecdotal evidence is, seems as we’ll provide the answer, but of course our umbrella or scientific methodology that we deploy doesn’t get at, it’s not designed to do so Newton.

We can’t rely on science yet. Yet to do so. So we need quantum physics. We know that we need to integrate it and all that sort of stuff to get at truly what an NDE is. It’s real. I’ve talked with Denny, you’ve talked with Denny, but the point is, what are they saying? And this is the, the umbrella to me. Uh, and so I, I suspect, you know, some others, uh, it, it, it’s similar to the holographic properties and that correspond with certain principles of quantum physics, it gets into their perceptual aspects.

That is, it gets into theories of non locality. We always use that instantaneous information exchange that in that timeless and placeless dimension, they try to describe that, but language doesn’t capture it, but we see that in experimental evidence at, at the quantum level sub atomic level, but that could certainly describe telepathy as well, you know, uh, experiments have proven that without a doubt.

[00:30:54] Alex Tsakiris: , but see, Bob, I feel like you’re kind of, again, dancing around this. I mean, so what are we to make of the connection between non-local. Nonphysical and the physical down to the level of not just proving it, but in terms of are they, are they different realities are from this reality? Is it impossible to understand that other reality?

Because that’s what I think a lot of the wisdom traditions are telling us is, you know, , it’s a fool’s game to try and understand what you’re calling reality from this reality. Do you believe that or do you believe we have to push and understand it and we can get there?

[00:31:44] Robert Davis: I don’t think we, we can, , , I don’t think that’s possible to, to experience true reality unless, unless we have an NDE or an OBE where, and there’s evidence as you know of vertical perception where information is obtained, that’s outside the, their sensory systems.

There’s no way they could know. Alexander’s one example of someone who had a critical perception, Jeff Long published studies like that. But I know it’s a saying in a way it’s not the data. I know I could bore you with that. I get it. , it’s hard to get at that question.

It’s very deep. I, I admit that, uh, and you wrestle with that and, and of course I don’t have any answers and please what I say, don’t interpret, literally everybody should be open mind. Their own research, of course.

That’s the problem. I think that’s the number one question we have, what is true reality and, and, and we struggle because intuitively we know there’s another reality. But, but our brain says no stick on the 3d stuff. We’re slaves to it again, I think. And we can only capture reality, knowing true reality is if we have a peak experience, , and, and you see support with the holographic principles of quantum mechanics, which I could Bo you with, you see that perception correlates with many principles in quantum physics.

So there’s some support there between science and the subjective, which is real cool. That turns my head, uh, it stimulates and motivates me. And I’m sure others like you too, but I’m trying to connect the dots and, and, and like a chess game. Okay. So people have these wild experiences they’re out of the body.

They’re interacting deceased relatives, non-human entities, they’re doing psycho DMT, psilocybin. They see machine LS to, to, to, to, to the grays and, and beyond, besides deceased relatives, what is that all about? Does it reflect their beliefs? Does it reflect memories in their mind? Are they being, or somebody playing a game, you know, who’s in control here.

That’s the point? Is it neurologically induced, psychotic induced, or they seeing a true reality. And I try to address that in my book, uh, psych how you separate psychosis symptoms from what they truly experience and you have.

You have to, well, uh, because most of them are very sane people, but there are psychotic individuals, obviously who may, you know, mimic some of that behavior, but it’s easy to separate, but that’s the point. ,

[00:34:10] Alex Tsakiris: you were certainly on the cutting edge of this and that’s why your books are so important.

And that’s why we certainly want to get behind you and get behind this film, because the way that you’re trying to lay it out is super important. And it’s gonna bring so many people along for the, the journey and digging into it in a deeper way. I wanna jump ahead with some things that are kind of more skeptical, kind of related.

There’s not a lot of people I can talk to at this level, but I can talk to you because you’ve already laid that groundwork. What I was really driving at and all that is kind of where I’m coming from with the why evil matters question. And it’s not, I don’t want people to misunderstand that I’m not interested in what is evil or calling out people or pointing fingers.

I’m just saying that I think the question of is there such a thing that we would call evil? Does that even exist? Is there such a thing that we could call good? Is there a moral imperative? This seems to be coming back from us directly from the dear death experience science undeniably clearly at this 90% level, they’re saying yes, there is a moral imperative.

Yes. There is a hierarchy to consciousness, but I don’t know. That’s just 90%. I wanna jump past that. You mentioned Dean Raden and he’s in the film. I just interviewed him and I was blown away in a really kind of negative way that I’m still trying to get over because I think we’re at a very, very interesting point in time.

I’ve never been a big we’re at the special place in time kind of person, cuz history kind of throws that against the rocks and crushes it pretty quickly. But when Dean Raden says, yeah, I’m working on giving people a jab so that they can get more psychic and create a hive mind because the crazy stuff you guys are doing out there needs to be controlled.

And the way that I’m gonna do it is I’m gonna change your DNA. And that’s gonna change that, filter that you’re calling your brain and that’s gonna change consciousness. I’m like, whoa, , where have you gone? You have some of the most important, fundamental research for establishing for dissolving this materialistic bullshit.

And now you’re taking it in this transhumanism global globalist kind of craziness. That seems to me, contrary to what I’m getting back from a subjective level from the near death experience science, which is there is a hierarchy. There is a moral imperative. Although fooling around you guys are doing with your lab.

I in with your experiments is for the most part, just problematic in all these different ways. Help me out here, help me understand why folks are using this advanced technology that we’re at to try and think their masters of the universe that can control our consciousness with a jab in the arm.

[00:37:31] Robert Davis: Well, somebody gotta make a book, you know, um, uh, somebody has to get a grant to maintain an academic position.

Um, someone has a kind of heart and truly wants to help people and think they. In some way, you know, I like to think most people who are trying to modify consciousness, you know, using biofeedback, certain healing practices, uh, yoga comes in many different forms and, and then you have a Dean Raden who who’s doing his thing.

, a cool, yeah, I have great respect for Dean.

, and, and, and I’ll be at, we’ll be at the ions, the Institute of neurotic sciences. Once the lab is reestablished to film Dean and others who are doing research there. Uh, and they’re doing some very interesting research with mediums. In fact, um, like at Weybridge and you mentioned that many times,

[00:38:19] Alex Tsakiris: Let me underline a point you’re making there so that it’s not misconstrued.

And so that you have the space to talk about this without it sounding like I’m, you know, slamming Dean Raden. And that is that Dean in that interview that I gave makes a point that is solid and arguable. the first big point that he makes is to quit talking about if this is happening, it is happening. We are changing the genome.

We are changing our DNA. We are jabbing people in the arm and that is done. Forget it. The cow has left the barn. It’s like AI is my background, artificial intelligence. Quit talking about if it is here, we are dealing with it. So Dean is saying. If we’re in the middle of that sea change, don’t we need to understand how we might shape it, how we might direct it and what might be advantageous for our species in the future.

And in that respect, you can’t, like I said, in the interview, maybe we should be glad. Maybe we should be glad that it’s Dean Raden who’s who’s out there doing it, as opposed to some guy in China, that’s buried in some lab that we don’t even know what he’s doing. So, but I’m not, I’m not saying I I’ve subscribed to that either, but this is a unique point in history.

As it relates to take a jab, physically change the filter. We’re talking about the valve in your head and then change your conscious experience. Yeah.

[00:39:56] Robert Davis: Well that, well you’re taking a chance. Are you sure you could change the filter in your head to change your conscious experience? Come on. I mean that, you know, I, I, I, for one to one participate in that experiment, I don’t know how it’s gonna pass the committee on, on protection of human subjects, but you, you know, you have a lot of conspiracy theorists thinking consciousness is being changed by many kinds of jabs that we’re all taking every day.

It seems, but, , and maybe it is, , in, in some ways, , , we strive for truth. There’s more truth seeks, uh, than others, of course. And, and those that are, , try to, to alter consciousness , for the better the, you know, , the problem is how can we improve. Human suffering through, through this technique.

And, and it’s hard to figure that one out. Um, and, and maybe it’s trying to widen that filter naturally. And maybe even with the jab of DMT, I don’t know if altering DNA is going too far. I don’t know if you know what DNA controls exactly what you want to achieve. , you know, you know, Gary Nolan is gonna be in our, uh, documentary, many people know the name he’s, um, reasonably been on many shows.

He, he, he doesn’t make a conclusion, but he do does make the suggestion then area, as you know, uh, in the core date and Putin of the hippocampus that we see a greater enhancement of white connectivity. Okay. There’s more stuff going. Right. He shows the shows, the map, you, you know, you’ve heard him, but, and people know, oh, what does that mean?

Well, he doesn’t say anything about what it means, but, but it’s unique. Many of them had Havana syndrome and UIP, all that sort of stuff. Are they psychic? Right. You know, do we have a physiologic biologic marker for, for that? Empathy ESP, the inte ESP, all that. So, uh, interesting, interesting. But, you know, can you modify a gene to create that if that structure is an evolutionary thing going on, that can potentially, you know, maybe make a psychic ESP, uh, show us kind of human potential growth to improve us at a personal and societal level.

We’re at that cusp, but people understandably are playing around with things that are just unique to their discipline. This is what they know.

[00:42:19] Alex Tsakiris: , let’s back up and make sure that people know Gary know a little bit and the reference you’re making, because what Gary has shown in his claiming and.

I think has shown is that there are people that have had an encounter, a contact experience with et and their brains are different. And that is, he’s saying that that is a direct result. And he’s saying that we’ve studied it and we have information back from other contact that says that’s it. And that it looks experimental.

Sometimes that change wasn’t so good. It led to like death in some people. So just to put an emphasis, to put an exclamation point, we are at a very interesting time. We mentioned Dean, Raden take the jab, change your DNA, change the filter. Maybe we gotta do that to stay on pace with et who’s saying I can come in there and change your brain.

And now change. What’s going on too. It’s again, this sounds crazy to people, but just go do a little look. See, and you, you can’t. Unlock it after that.

[00:43:32] Robert Davis: Well, you know, you know, Alex, this is, this is what I, I struggle with almost daily. This is why I’m doing the documentary. I’ll wake people up to, complexity of reality.

I don’t have any, any answers to what you’re asking me. The, the, the, the best questions I’ve ever received.

[00:43:47] Alex Tsakiris: Like switch gears over. You mentioned.

Gary Schwartz, Arizona soul phone. I had mark mark. Pitstick on love those guys, even though I gave mark kind of a hard time, but here’s another dimension to this, which is technology. Will we be able to have an app that will connect us to this extended realm? That’s what they’re working on, essentially more or less with the so phone.

What does that do? And again, if we put it in, in this timeline perspective, what does it mean that we are at this point in history, in this long technological advancement that we can have of the last a hundred years and say we are now where we can actually imagine doing something like that. What are, what in your gut?

Having had all these experiences and thought about this and published and researched this. What does your gut feel about the intersection of technology with what’s going on in the extended consciousness realm?

[00:44:52] Robert Davis: I’ll be honest with you other than, you know, it goes too far in some respects who at the cusp, as I was, was trying to think, say before of using technology in fancy dramatic ways, then I commend those who do that. You know, one of them will be the inventor will, will, will be able to measure consciousness.

I, I, I know somebody who has a meter and I gave it to Dean Raden. To do just that. That’s another issue, a consciousness meter, basically. Um, that’s, that’s another story. So we’re on, we’re on that. We’re on that cusp, but I, I don’t think we have the proper, proper tools, uh, to do it. People strive to do it. The so phone by, by Gary Schwartz, there’s some preliminary data that are suggestive at best that something is going on.

It’s a very complex procedural process. As you alluded to it, it utilizes a, a, a computer, a unique software package. And, and the, the goal here is to figure out if a deceased individual is the pro responding appropriately and following computer derived demands to go into one location versus another. And some preliminary data says, eh, it says, may let’s gimme some more money and I need to experiment more to figure this out.

It’s important. We’re gonna try to figure out this life after death, gimme, gimme $2 million. Right. And I read his, I have great respect for Gary Schwartz, but he’s, he’s got, he’s gotta put bread in the table. He’s gotta work at, uh, at the university, but he could be certainly beyond to something. I commend him.

I commend like you Dean Raden for all, for all his efforts of leading scientists in parapsychology. Um, uh, and they’re doing remarkable work. We, we certainly have to be careful of what we’re doing. We’re subject to criticism. Certainly my work is too subject to criticism and I talk about this stuff to some people reluctantly, because they, they can’t relate.

And, and because their reality subject of science is, is different. Uh, so, okay. Uh, and we go to friends who meet our same reality in a sense, given our personal criteria. And sometimes we have that. We meet that soul or, or best friend, but, you know, it’s a complementary principle that, that, that bore wrote about, you know, you know, sub human beings have to compliment, you know, compliment each other.

[00:47:17] Alex Tsakiris: But , the other part of that in the scary part of that, and I know you’ve encountered this already, and as you push forward and you push the edge, which you’re doing, then you’re gonna encounter it even more. Is the divide, the gap, you know, uh, 20, 30 years ago, we used to talk about the gap between people who are computer literate and those who are not well, imagine how that gap is widening.

And then imagine if we make one of these leaps. How that gap becomes even larger and how we have different classes of citizens, different classes of fellow human beings. I forget the colleagues, you know, that, that we’re just like, well, you can’t even talk about it with those people. And does that lead to kind of an leadism and are we, here’s the real question?

Are we already seeing that? And we’re not totally aware of it. Are we seeing a group of people that have made decisions that feel that they have to be made at a level that the rest of us can’t fully understand and they’re just gonna push the ball forward cuz they have to, they can’t stop and explain the big picture to everybody in general without getting into specifics.

Does that concern you that, that there is this whether we want to or not we’re we’re widening the

[00:48:40] Robert Davis: gap? Well, well you had it, you mean, in other words, you know, I did this my whole life in this field. I’m I’m hitting a ceiling. Where do I go? I’ll you know, I’ll go here. What else? What else can I do? I don’t you understand?

I, where, where do I direct my research now? In a sense, now that I have all these experiments behind me, what does it say? Where do I go? What’s it telling me the chess game. , then you have a peak experience. As many people do. That’s what motivates them to get into research? Cause it does. I had a shared death, not near death experience.

And then the , if I was young, I’d do research in it. But I did research for the Dr. Egg Mitchell research foundation. And I published that article in journal, the scientific exploration. We wrote it re scalp and I wrote it, but, uh, Ray Hernandez helped develop the survey and many people did like Brent rains and Barbara mango.

And a few others, my dear friend, Rosemary Allen Galey who you may know. , she published my last book on scene forest, but I’m getting off the topic. , you know, we are driven by our past here again, times on illusion, my past research, my past experiences drives our, our destiny drives our future. So if we look at time as a, as a 3d thing, you know, the past exists and to some extent of future may too.

, where do I want to go? At least we, at least we consider it and we can alter our past making decisions. That’s a 3d thing, obviously. , we’re stuck with that. Are we seeing 40 fived in the near death antibody experience? Of course. And, and do we gather more type. Consciousness or I should say interact with some information field or whatever it may be,

[00:50:20] Alex Tsakiris: are we leaving just way the rest of everybody behind? Are we, are, are we just creating this other way of thinking about a kind of two class have, and have not society in that people who can get to this point of understanding this and understanding the implications of,

[00:50:38] Robert Davis: it’s widening, man.

[00:50:39] Alex Tsakiris: Oh, is it widening now? Like Moore’s law, like out control so much. Look at you. Look, you know, like I tried to capture this for people at the beginning, you start as a totally legit guy legit in the sense that. Pure science, Harvard giving you the pat on the back, Cambridge, pat on the back, published papers, all that you were part of that machine and now your rocket ship out there, et no one touches, et you do near death experience.

No one touches that, a pun pig, your there, and, and I I’m tossing you these things and you’re just bating them around like no problem. What percentage of people can get to the point where they can join this conversation in a real way. And since we know that number is crazy low, then what are when we get together.

Like you said, when a group of us get together and say, okay, we can kind of think about this and talk about it. We’re gonna make decisions that are gonna leave out 99. Plus percentage the population. What are the implications of that from a kind of democracy standpoint, from a world governance standpoint, it’s scary to think about it from that, from that way.

And, and that’s where I think we’re at.

[00:52:02] Robert Davis: It’s scary is heavy. It’s scary to think about. I think that gap is gap is widening with the advances in technology, uh, which is geometrically evolving. Where do we see consciousness studies, uh, mindfulness, meditation, all those practices that you’re referring to, that the documention of the things contribute towards the betterment of, of one’s personal, um, happiness, relax, all of that, uh, whatever it may do to comfort the individual.

, and we, and now we see a little bit of that. We only see a few Dean Ray, you know, Schwartz is cetera. It scattered about, I don’t know if I’m in that camp. Thank you very much. I don’t know if I am, but you know, in part experiences motivated me to talk about this very much, reluctantly, I’ll be honest with you, Alex.

I wouldn’t talk about my coele shared death experience. Uh, two year, two, three years ago, and people just thought that coming out of the. Obviously stigma. We all know that, but I, I understand all that and I, I understand spiritual emergency and unique to everybody varies considerably among people, but I under, I, I get it.

Like I said, when I had a experience like became a tree hugger from period of time, I, I never was always liked nature of course, but I did have that interconnection, that, that sense of oneness, that the holographic theory of consciousness talks about, you know, from instincts to, to, uh, cognitive function, to OBS, to NDS, to reincarnation, to oneness, they talk about people, always talk about that state.

What are they talking about? One, what does one this mean? It means one more than zero, you know, or less than two. Yeah. You, what is, but the subjective science to it, right? The gap is widening. We don’t nurture it. It doesn’t evolve. Obviously. Uh, these little kids should practice mindfulness meditation among other things.

Of course, that can help the brain structure as you wisely mentioned earlier. And it does, it does support, uh, a physiologic function, immunological function. I could bore the audience to death on the benefits galore. It may not cure cancer. It may not do X, Y, Z, but it is very beneficial. If I say for the third time, you know, P is real.

I know that I know the data. It doesn’t mean I can read the dollar bill in your pocket. It’s statistical it’s subtle. It’s real. You see, so a Dean Raden a Diane Hennessey Powell who does P work with Savan Susan, our film, Jeff Long oncologist, who also does, you know, NDE research, pat him on the back, a few come out of the closet who are, and doctors too.

And some change I’ve talked to many doctors, uh, who’ve changed their business in their thirties, thriving practice. They changed after an NDE or an interaction with a, with a non-intelligent, uh, non-human intelligence coming from a spaceship, whatever the story is, we all know I hear it all the time. What am I supposed to do with that, Alex?

I that’s. What that’s you see? That’s what I always ask myself. Somebody tells me I’m more sane than me. A gray walked into my bedroom. Um, uh, Michael J. Carter, a friend of mine. You, you, uh, you know, Michael great Bob. I said, Mike, prove to me in all this other reality that people talking about, Bob, a great touch me.

I may have talked about this on my last show and apologize. I, but did a great job. No, you didn. It was that my great touch? Me, Reverend J Michael Z. Carter. He’s not psychotic. He’s a be beautiful dude. I wish I was as beautiful as, as he was, you know, in many ways. Uh, I like to think I’m evolving. I like to think my experience has helped.

I think they did. I’ll be truthful far from perfect. You know, and don’t, again, don’t interpret what I say, literally. Um, but I love talking with you again, as you mentioned earlier, who, who do you talk to about this? Where is the evolution of this direction? It’s limited, but that’s not. You go to Monroe and ions.

How many exists? There are a few. I looked at all these consciousness organizations worldwide to support the film. There’s one in Portugal. There’s one over here. There’s one over here. You gotta look in front.

Why? Why, why, why is, why is that the case? Why is that the case? Because this is something I’ve been hammering on for 10 years.

And even when I talk to people, I, I love and respect, like Bruce Grayson, they’re reluctant to go there and that’s like, if you don’t think that’s fucking conspiratorial, wake the fuck up. I mean, I know we spent, we spent, you know, it, it, it’s just, it’s self evident in the fact that you look at where we’ve put resources, right.

We’ve put and, and not a ton of resources, but you’re gonna go talk to Joe MCLE and you’re gonna talk to him about remote viewing. That was, you know, now at this point that’s 40 years ago, they were not asking the question about, is consciousness an illusion? They were, they were no . It was, how do I operationalize this?

How do I weaponize put weaponize it? Yeah. To be real. And that question is still being asked today. And the real, it keeps popping up over and over and over again, everywhere we look that the, the real insiders of the. Government secret agencies. Of course they’re doing that. So when we contrast that with what you had to endure in your academic life and they still do, you know, I mean, I, I say this all the time, uh, what’s his name?

UL Al or whatever, 30 million books, you know, the darling of, uh, the 60 minutes he’s on the lead scientist, Obama, you know, Zuckerberg, bill gates telling you consciousness is an illusion. I know I’m a scientist, you’re a meaningless robot and biologic robot meanings universe, which implies that consciousness is an illusion.

There’s no two ways about it. So when you say that, Bob. Aren’t what come on. I mean, that is like, so paper thin again, it’s this gap. It’s where they’re saying, look, give that to the normal, to the normies out there. Just let that be the message. And then let’s get on with really trying to figure out what et is up to.

Let’s figure out what the demons and angels are up to. Let’s go figure that out, cuz that’s the important work and just let the rest of these people think it’s all just, well, you know what?

This, yes, there’s two UAP. There’s the unidentified aerial Fano unidentified aerial phenomena. And then you have your unacknowledged access programs?

Yes. Okay. you know what I’m saying? Uh, where right. Where, where, where the nukes, uh, and all that, you know, from, from an office in the Pentagon. I, I, of course I get it. Um, I’ve talked with John Alexander, um, a few times, um, about that who as people know, is with the CIA not lethal weapons, interesting individual, um, ,

[00:59:03] Alex Tsakiris: then goes, shamonic kind of like,

[00:59:05] Robert Davis: like you in a way there’s something there, but, you know, uh, they, they have done psychs is real.

I’ve talked to people who’ve been there, you know, I don’t wanna really get into it, but it’s, it’s real it’s and, and, and it’s UAP related too. Um, they infiltrate, uh, believe me, they infiltrate, they make friends. And how, how did they get information the best way, really? To, to, to, to listen to you. See what people are doing, uh, tap, whatever they do.

Um, join, join research foundations, you know what I’m saying? Um, and, uh, set people up and that’s their job and they’re not gonna hurt people. They’re just gathering information. That’s all they do. That’s their, but again, discipline specific. That’s what they did all their life now retired. What am I gonna do?

Hey, so I’m gonna, I’m gonna figure out what consciousness is from a public view. May I learn something like the UAP, same, same thing, you know, experiences. I know people, and I know people who, who know people, you know, everybody says that and I hate to be in that position. You know, it’s, this is why I wrestle so much.

Not that I know, know people, but the story I hear from credible sources, um, they’ll send people to some major experiences. They know major experiences. And they’ll try to establish, you know, close relations with some, uh, to gather information, to maybe even experience what they’re experiencing to learn of what is consciousness, psychedelic drugs too, the whole bit.

Um, and there is something to learn in a way, in a way I applaud them. I, I hope they don’t misuse or abuse people here. You know what I’m saying? Tap phones. And probably they do, you know, I hear clicks every now and then who to help take. No, maybe I’m a little paranoid in my old age, but , but they do well, what

[01:01:06] Alex Tsakiris: you’re saying is important is really important is really next level.

And that’s that, how would we feel if they weren’t doing that? in a way, that’s really the implications of what you’re saying is we’d be like, Hey, get on this. You know, we’re not totally comfortable that they’re doing it in secret and they’re not revealing it. And they seem to have all these conflicting motives that play out in different ways.

But hell yes, we want ’em to, you know, somebody has to be looking.

[01:01:40] Robert Davis: , we know these, , unacknowledged aspects programs have, will obtain information with that new research office, the little shared what they want to share and, and I’m not going to, you know, I applaud them that they went this far.

Where, what was that the past 70 years? Let’s not get into that, please. You know, what is disclosure? This, this isn’t disclosure at, at a little spoon, you know, teaspoon level maybe, but, but heck , they are going to, , They, they they’re going, they’re going to, , not tell what the fully, what they know. And so that there’s breaking news on CNN, that there’s life after death, that, that et is here.

They’re interacting with human beings. We have the evidence. , you know, I I’ve looked at the evidence from thousands of people have talked to hundreds of people. Uh, the evidence is there in my mind, they’re interacting with non-human entities more often than not, not associated with the UAP, but there’s a physical component to it.

Maybe 20% of the time. And, and people go through that. We, we know the details, the, the, on the table, the sexual stuff whole bit, uh, let’s not go into those details ,

[01:02:48] Alex Tsakiris: without going into the details, how are you processing the. , uh, I hate the word, but everyone will immediately know what I’m talking about.

The demonic, , hypothesis kind of thing. I, I, I hate the term because it’s overlaid with this Christian cultish kind of embryonic religion that, that just doesn’t doesn’t make sense from a historical standpoint. And yet at the same time, we have the sense that there is some reality malevolence in the extended realm.

We don’t know how to process that, how to sort that, but. when you’re being raped by an et. And then as you mentioned, and that was one of the fallings out I had with the free organization was, was like, look, if you can’t wrap your arms around the, all that, the whole data set, then you are just doing some form, another of misinformation, disinformation, whether you want to or not.

So if that’s part of the data set, we have to acknowledge

[01:03:55] Robert Davis: it. Well, yeah. , it’s a, a terrible experience for many, but usually the first few times, how can it not be? But those who had it more than 10 times, Russ, Russ, and I looked at it all the day to try and dissect that the, the long term experiences by number of interactions with non intelligence is out of a thousand, 1100 people, approximately 80% more than their experiences to continue.

You know, so, you know, what does that mean? So, but very early on, more negative, just like there’s 10, 10, 20% hellish NDEs as

[01:04:26] Alex Tsakiris: well. Here’s the problem I have with that. And I’d love for you to comment on it. Again, this is like deep inside baseball who cares? the, the, the, I so applaud you guys for doing that work.

Absolutely fundamental important. And that is the free work. The survey work on contact experience, which kind of, for people who don’t know who kind of mirrors like what Jeff Long did with near death experience, start collecting this with carefully designed scientific studies. And I always say this, if you think surveys, aren’t scientific.

Ask your, ask yourself the question. How do we measure depression in. We go out and we survey ’em and we say, do you feel depressed? That’s exactly what we go do this now, how do you feel? And we ask it 40 different ways. We have all a grief, you know, we could go into all these different ways that of course surveys are incredibly powerful scientifically.

So why wouldn’t we use ’em for near death experience? Of course we would. Why wouldn’t we use them in the case of contact experience? Of course we would. You are part of that project applaud you. Here’s the difference? There is , another baseline with near death experience. And that is Peter Fick, penny Sartori, , Sam Parnia start, , have pinned on, lamo go into the cardiac arrest ward and they say, okay, people are having all these near death experiences all over the way.

Drowning, jumping, jumping off to a golden gate bridge, all this other, forget all that. I wanna focus on this narrow, physiologically controlled experience of having a heart attack. I seem to know certain things about what’s gonna happen. Brains, gonna stop. , heart’s gonna stop. Brain’s gonna stop blood flow.

I can measure all their stuff. Now that becomes somewhat of a baseline. So when that data matches up with Jeff long’s data, I start getting really interested the problem potentially, and I’m not, I don’t wanna over blow this. The problem potentially with the free thing is now we no longer have that baseline.

So we have to start asking questions. Who’s responding to this survey. , you know, not, not in like crazy people are responding to it, but just like, if I got raped by an alien, do I fill out a survey online saying I got raped by an alien? And if it skews it even a little bit, does that start to skew, , the numbers?

So there’s all these, yeah. Again, applaud you forget the data.

[01:06:53] Robert Davis: Yeah. Yeah. Look, , I respect that question, Alex. I I’ve, uh, there are, there are certainly advantages, as you mentioned, of course. How, how do you measure love? You know, you can’t just, again, we lack that subjective science and then that’s. The necessity and importance of where we need to go, scientifically speaking, the ASCU the results.

Um, look, I I’ve done experimental, you know, experiments my whole life. I’m I’m, I’ve taught research methodology, all that I know there’s limitations to every study in so many dramatic ways. You it’s, it’s remarkable. Um, the fact how there’s of course, limitations to our survey. Uh, we did however, test for validity, external and internal, and did a lot of internal St.

Statistical analysis. Ross, you see scalpel who worked with me directly on the article is an expert in statistics and research design, uh, uh, and he teaches it. So he, I, I needed. Um, and I, I, I used them to figure it out and we really tested that and that came out all good. We looked for repeaters. We looked for, we had some emotional questions.

Of course, of course we, the point is this, we had 3,200 people over 3,200 people responded, even if there was even if there was 20% that say that I was right by aliens and they have, they have a psychosis of some type that’s causing them to say that that’s their reality. Even if you include the psychotic and it can’t be 20%, that’s way higher than the normal incidence for that.

But of course, you’re gonna have individuals who, who are inappropriate, uh, who are lying for whatever reason and there’s ways to. However, in a survey, especially with Reone, he knows how to not perfectly nothing’s perfect, but he knows how to moderate that. To some extent, um, 3,200 people, you see the numbers says something significant, even if you include psychotic, that’s my point.

And when 80, 85% are saying the same general thing, you can’t ignore that. We’re talking about thousands of individuals. Uh, you see, so I understand your point very well. You have to interpret the data very carefully and statistics can be very misleading. I know that. And, and, and I don’t mind you at all for, and I, I appreciate the question, Alex, because I often don’t have the opportunity to discuss this.

Nobody even reads the article. I think it’s so important. I’m not patting myself on the back. I’m. At all. I think it’s important for the field

[01:09:35] Alex Tsakiris: let’s make sure that we don’t gloss over that. Cause we kind of skipped ahead back up. What is the result of that?

So you go out, you did a beautiful job there of explaining better than I did. How a, a scientist who’s familiar with this kind of work could compile a survey, could feel confident in the results. What’s the big picture message from the results in terms of contact

[01:09:58] Robert Davis: experience, 80% of them say it’s like having an OBE being floated up into a matrix, nonphysical

[01:10:07] Alex Tsakiris: positive though.

Positive and it’s, but it’s positive, right? They,

[01:10:12] Robert Davis: , there are positive aspects, you know, I mean, it’s hard, it’s hard to interpret because they’re using language again and responding to questions that are, you know, again, qualitative in nature. It’s not one on one is two, but we’re trying our best to make sense out of the, that information, uh, generally.

Yes. How could it not however, uh, impact you when you have that kind of experience? Let’s face it it’s, it’s non 3d is what they describe into, into a matrix and they interact with beings, et cetera, not all. Uh, and then we get at the positivity factor in a very unique way, , in ways that are quite complex.

And, and again, the vast majority overall say the whole shebang was positive. Those that had the. I saw them and come in my room. They took me by the hand. I, I, I, you know, dematerialized somehow I felt weird when it happened and I floated up and I do X, Y, Z, and then they return me with my pajamas backwards.

You know, the, you know, the story, , again, small percent physical, small percent now I 3,200. But again, when I say small percent, that’s still a lot of people. Obviously they, they regard that much less positive than those that have the negative experience. And that makes sense. They see reptilians, they, you know, more commonly see the small grades.

Of course, we, we look at that too. Types of beings and you you’ve read the article mainly small and energy beings are very high energy beings. Interesting. Um, the whole, the whole, the whole spectrum, uh, how can it not be intensely fearful? , so you get a lot of that. Uh, you get qualitative responses that are hard to understand, uh, you know, hyperdimensional, uh, unconditional love it.

It carries over to qualitative reports from NDE, and Obers again, losing some aspect of brain function. You’re not impeded by the physical body. You’re going beyond that. Now they’re going, you’re going on UAP level drip trip of the non-human intelligence. Whereas my neighborhood has the same or similar thing with the near deck death experience ex and, and Mr.

Jones over. You know what I mean? The OBE, the psyche psychedelics, um, look even for a film. Um, we, we were invited to an IO retreat in Peru by a K Tanner. He was well known in visual, very bright, uh, well, very experienced with IOSCO and, you know, I I’m tempted, but so tempted and, and his comment to me is I don’t wanna do it at, at, you know, I’ve, I’ve done.

I messed around in the sixties with the grateful dead in central park, if you know what I’m saying. And, uh, but not, not now. Uh, but he says, once, once you come here, people can’t help not to can’t help, not so, you know, he’s and he is probably right. Amazon jungle, you know who the heck knows,

[01:13:09] Alex Tsakiris: the other thing I’ve heard and I’m sure you’ve heard this too, but if you go, you’re part of the process kind of with your shared death experience, you know, people go and they don’t drink the drink and they still have the experience because.

You know, .

[01:13:23] Robert Davis: The resonance. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Like a telemetric effect that they see in, in, in EEG labs, you know, that were so, yeah,

[01:13:30] Alex Tsakiris: yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, also I interviewed, , related to this on Shirley Black, who has done PK, uh, research in labs. She’s done, she’s been a subject of cuz she can make the, the wheel spin and do all that in all these labs, including UVA, including, uh, Ryan and documented carefully controlled and all the rest of this.

But what she reports to your point is Ben, everyone got so excited that they went out to dinner to Mexican restaurant. Well, let’s pull, bring the wheel along and now everyone can do it once the, the vibe is right. And the energy is right,

[01:14:08] Robert Davis: like global consciousness

[01:14:09] Alex Tsakiris: project. Yeah, exactly. Here’s the big, question’s

[01:14:13] Robert Davis: change a random number generator, right.

Do individually too.

[01:14:17] Alex Tsakiris: Yes. Yes. Here. Here’s the big question that like burns in my head and, and I don’t know the answer to it, and I’ve kind of been pulled back and forth, but like, so. You go and you study, et, like you just said, and they go to the matrix and it starts lining up with the NDE. And then one of the things you shared in the last interview we did, which is excellent.

Please go back and listen to that. Please go read unseen forces and please help Bob out with this documentary. We’ve gotta make sure that it happens. But having said that you’re talking about, , the Seman. Comparison again, carefully done controlled study and these things start matching up. That is your experience with, , Ika DMT.

The words you say, ineffable, , dissolution. VGO all this stuff and others they’re. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. They’re matching up in a good researcher. Can go and say that. And the near death experience is matching up too. My big question is what can we start to say about the nature of the order of the structure of consciousness?

Is there God, that’s where we’re headed to make it kind of a crude, basic question consistently the near death experience, people come back and says, yes, there is this hierarchy. I felt it. I experienced it. And most importantly, what Bob Davis documents in peak experiences. Again, this is kind of tangential, but it’s completely not tangential.

It’s fundamental to this is Bob points out that these experiences are transformational in a way that we’re comfortable measuring from a social science standpoint. People come back and they’re changed. They live different lives and we don’t know how to make that happen. Normally we don’t know how to make that happen with drugs, with therapy, with anything else, but they come back and they’re transformed.

Now that is so we have to factor that into the peak experience. Are they transformed? Because, because God changed him. because there’s a hierarchy of consciousness. And at that hierarchy of consciousness level, they can go, boom, you should, here’s the right path to beyond. I’m gonna send you on that right path.

[01:16:42] Robert Davis: Well, you know, yeah. Wow. Um,

You know, I’m gonna be mentally tired after this interview. You understand? I love it. This is very cool. That’s why I look forward to talking to you like that question, you know, I never got anything like that. It’s beautiful. , yeah, people who have these experience do report interacted with Supreme beings.

Um, you know, oftentimes it’s based someone’s experience, but, uh, there’s also people who are trying to research in the brain, the gods. You know, you repeatedly say the word, God, God, God, among other things related to religiosity and you see a little piece over here, light up a lot, you know, with the F MRI.

So people are getting into that is, is that, does that component to physical component of, is there, God’s about to begin with it? We don’t know, but people report, yeah. I’ve interacted with the deity of some type. Is that trans boy? Maybe both do. I would say if there is a higher power, not your time yet go back.

, or unconditional love when I saw that person, um, it was, it was, you know, the one, um, I know really than real, we. Things all the time. Uh, science can’t do anything with it, but not designed to, we can’t look to science. We have to look to ourselves and, and, and share it with others and try to educate people.

But some people just, , if maybe for physiologic reasons, epigenetic inheritance, you know, we inherit maybe a spirituality that search for truth. Um, and, and we do, I believe carry a lot of the past. They ask the same questions as we do. , you know, in different ways it would same suit, you know, same different tech, you know, different questions, different toys, same darn thing, same phenomen.

It’s in the Bible folk law manifested in different ways. And you could turn my book into a folklore book written in 600, whatever it’s 627. You know, the Bible’s is filled with more paranormal than, than you could find anywhere. And quantum physics is a science is the paranormal. If you wanna, you know, go into many scientists.

So we talk about quantums, it’s not routinely adopted, accepted. Well, some principles are of course. Um, but again, they’re mathematically derived and, and that doesn’t mean that’s physical reality. You see that’s physical reality. Let me emphasize that point again, there is subjective reality and we’re slaves that with the brain, I was, we slaves to our sensory systems and everything else that makes us tick.

So that there’s two realities in my mind. There’s a sub atomic reality. There’s a, all of that stuff. It’s personal information exchange. That’s reality. You can get it at the level of consciousness where when you’re meditating and you, or you have an NDE and you see God and you’re transformed, how can you not be, um, uh, or meditation with the body, your slaves to the body.

So let’s, let’s see what I can do while I’m I’m in this, uh, body. Compartment, whatever you wanna call it and expand my consciousness using maybe a biofeedback machine and my mind mirror Hemi sync. I’ll go to Monroe. How I know a lot of people know, went to Monroe. Why that’s the question? Oh, achieve expanded awareness.

I can’t, I, I looked at all of these places, expanded awareness, relaxation, moderate health. Um, I don’t announce it. I support it wholeheartedly. It’s beautiful. Beautiful. Um, uh, the question is few and far between in terms of people who, who adopt those practices, read about it. Uh, but what you’re doing, what you see, I’m trying to do the same darn thing.

You, you do a beautiful job behind the microphone. You, how long do you do it for 15 years? You educate, you know, you have a lot of followers. I don’t know if people are aware of that. You do. And I’ve listened to, and I’ll say again many years, and you have many educated guests and you challenge in a way that that’s.

Very unique. , , I can’t explain it other than it makes me think, as I said, very deeply into myself, and that’s very healthy for me. It’s almost like if I’m going to a psychologist, I’ll be honest with you, but you’re trying to get at the subjective, the essence you see, that’s what you’re doing.

And I applaud you for that. Most of the time I go on a show. So, Bob, what was your, what was your shared death experience like? You know, Bob, are you doing a film? Tell us about it. And you know what I mean? One, one sentence and nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that, but you make you go down deep.

Very cool. So

[01:21:23] Alex Tsakiris: , you’re very kind to say that Bob. So tell you what let’s return to the film, , the consciousness connection. At the end of the day, the film is out. PBS would be great. I don’t know about that audience, but PBS would be great. No, I, I just mean that. I don’t know.

Yeah, no, I agree. I

[01:21:44] Robert Davis: agree. You gotta tweak it.

[01:21:45] Alex Tsakiris: what, what is, what is the shift? What do you want people to come out? What’s the shift that you want to happen? What are people ready for is another way of putting it? What are people ready for that this film can bring? And I’m gonna go one step further.

I go on with these questions too far sometimes, but I wanna point out to people what I was saying at the beginning of how unique it is to talk to someone who can process this information at this level. I mean, just take what he was just saying about econ experience. I mean, that is so far out there for most people and for Bob, it’s just another.

Fill in a slot of a hundred slots that he’s filling in. Yeah. Yeah. So this, what, what are people ready for with the consciousness connection, the gap that you might be able to.

[01:22:42] Robert Davis: Wake up, wake up to the complexity of reality, um, that millions of people, of having experiences that are unexplained, but are very important in terms of our understanding of who and what we are.

Not that we have the answers, but I think this, this, this, this can make the court come out of the bottom. Like many experiences have, uh, that transformational process indeed, but there’s science behind it. Uh, as you show the mystery of consciousness, we’ll talk about it, uh, in varying ways. But it, the ultimate thing is what can we do with it to improve a people at the personal and societal level?

And that’s the issue that you keep driving at, uh, which makes perfect sense. But in order to do that, we have to try to understand better the research that people are doing now, the results that they are coming up with, uh, what people are reporting on a subjective level. After their NDE or OBE, et cetera, and try to integrate and make sense as best we can with uniform principles that are adopted by, by science today.

It’s not easy to do. And how do you capture that in the documentary of one hour documentary? And we have the pieces we have, please, you know, people can go to the website, we have the pieces, the, the people who wanna be interviewed a part of this and they can fund the film. Of course. And I hate to say that I’m not begging by any means, but if you have, if you’re, if you have six months and you, you don’t know what to do with a few, a few dollars and, and you like the message, you know, Hey, 20 bucks would be nice, you know, was a nice gesture, whatever, whatever, even $1 the point is it’s more the commitment and support.

Uh, and we have too few, uh, to do that. I don’t think people are already. In mass numbers for this, it may be, we have, um, we’re hard, wired differently. Some people can’t accept it. Right. And we know that they’ll never believe in UAPs unless they walk onto the ship, uh, or same thing with other phenomena.

People are experiencing that is transformational. Indeed. That is ego dis disillusion. It evokes that kind of process where, again, they’re not the center of the universe anymore. Um, they revolve more around the world, more caring and empathetic. We, we know the outcomes. And when we say a transpersonal experience to be a little bit more specific, I say in a nutshell that they, they become a little bit more human.

And they’re on a spiritual quest. The court is out of the bottle. They want answers with fierce determination. And I think there’s millions of ’em out there and I’m one of them. Don’t you see? But I have the science background and I’m trying to do a little bit with that. Write an article, give a little lecture and there’s is out there, but don’t you see, I asked the same question that you’re asking me, Alex, why, why me?

Well, I say that all the time. I, I, I, it, it is an internal struggle. And then, and then, and I say to myself, I go back, I had a shared death experience. I had a experience, you know, my friend, my friend in the lab who I worked with with, for years, we had a very, very strong relationship, you know, you know, in the right different place in time, we’d be married.

If you know what I’m saying, uh, uh, this perfect. She told me in my, in my Lu dream that she died, I felt I felt suffocating and I knew. Again, how do you define that? I knew she died that, you know what I’m gonna say that morning. I, I found that she died, uh, then the Kini, you know, my body’s doing one thing and my mind is doing it another sense of duality.

I can’t explain it. There is this sense of knowing this, you see, not oneness. I had a little of that. Interconnectedness people get added with the holographic universe model, the other theories, uh, other descriptions by peak experiences through their interactions with the, why am I talking about, I know non-human entities.

I get it, man. I get it because there’s so many of them. Don’t you see? And, and they’re very same individuals. And I, I got a taste of it. Don’t you say? So, so Bob, you know me enough to do something about, so I, now I had to document. We, we mention they debate from dream time entertainment and he’s Demi award winner.

This is gonna be, this is gonna be very, a hit and Dreamtime entertain. They do documentaries on PBS, all the shows, travel P you know, they’re they’re first class

[01:27:11] Alex Tsakiris: I wanna play the trailer in just a minute, but I want to put an exclamation point on what you just said, because I asked it to you last time.

And anyone who’s been around this field, it it’s knowing at the back of your head, whether you realize it or not. What are the odds that Bob Davis would be? Dr. Bob Davis would do all these incredible things from an academic standpoint then would have a rather profound and unique. UAP UFO experience then would have a shared death experience then would have a Kini experience.

We’re talking about statistics a minute ago. You go put any kind of statistic you wanna find on each one of those four events, multiply them together and send me an email. Tell me what you get in terms of a one out of whatever chance here. Let’s play this, uh, clip from the upcoming movie, the consciousness connection.

Here’s the trailer.

[01:28:13] Clip: Once you experience it, you can’t go back. You suddenly, you know, that reality. Unbelievably bizarre. And the dimensionality of consciousness is going to move us into advancing who we are as humans. But we await the paradigm shift, which is critical in terms of our understanding, the science of the subjective, integrating it with the science of the physical, in order to better understand consciousness reality.

And maybe a little bit more about what, what life and reality is, is all about.

[01:28:53] Alex Tsakiris: our guest again has been Dr. Bob Davis. It’s been fantastic having ’em on. I certainly hope you check out his books. In addition to the film, uh, you’ll find them all on the website.

We’ll have links to ’em. , Bob, it’s been great having you on. what, what can I say, come back soon. We’re definitely gonna have to do it an annual thing. Like

[01:29:15] Robert Davis: we said, anytime, I, I you’re the best out there. And, and in talking with you, , it’s, it’s wonderful. So please, uh, keep me in mind and when, when the documentary is done, it will be done.

Not sure what year or decade of , but, you know, that’s why we need some support from people, like hate to keep emphasizing that, to make it real. And that’s true with all films and books and everything else, but anyway, um, thank you so much for all you do. Um, and, and to enlighten people and help, help in the process of, of seeking truth.

And, and that’s the bottom line. You, you do really a it’s critical, you know, that’s the paradigm shift right there. Why are you doing what you’re doing? You see, that’s beautiful. Uh, and I, I question it myself and, and I share that with you. Thank you so much.

Thanks again to Dr. Bob Davis for joining me today on skeptical. One question. I could tee up about 50 questions from this one, but the one that intrigues me is. What about the gap? What about the gap we are creating. Does that concern you.

Let me know your thoughts. I know there’s probably a pretty small audience for this, kind of stuff at this level, but. I don’t care to me, it seems like. The most interesting, important stuff. To talk about. . So, if you are tuned in to what we’re talking about,

Please jump in the conversation. Cause realize there’s not that many of us who were really, , working on it at this level, then. We need to kind of wave high at each other and chat about what we know and what we’re trying to figure out. So join me. Come over to the skeptical forum or track me down otherwise.

That’ll do it for this one. Until next time, take care. Bye for now.

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