Rob and Trish MacGregor, Mystical Underground |558|

Rob and Trish MacGregor have written over a hundred books and created the Mystical Underground podcast.


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[00:00:00] Alex Tsakiris: On this episode of skeptiko, A guest appearance that started out great.

[00:00:08] Rob MacGregor: welcome back, Alex.

[00:00:10] Alex Tsakiris: To see you, Alex, you Rob . Thank you, Trish. Thanks to both of you. And then went totally off the rails.

[00:00:18] Rob MacGregor: I mean, you don’t always look at science, uh, Alex, I mean, you believe in Pizzagate for Christ’s sake. I mean, that’s crazy. That’s totally crazy.

[00:00:32] Alex Tsakiris: That’s that’s a great one in the time. In the time that we have left, what do you understand Pizzagate to be Rob?

I just don’t. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You brought it up Hal but what do you understand? Pizza? Well,

[00:00:38] Trish MacGregor: is it something against Hillary Clinton?

[00:00:40] Alex Tsakiris: Right,

[00:00:41] Rob MacGregor: right

[00:00:41] Alex Tsakiris: then that very much hill,

[00:00:43] Rob MacGregor: okay. Hillary Clinton had had this basement under a pizza shop and she was screwing boys or something, uh, P sex, some pedophiles, uh, some sex.

And it was totally ridiculous. And as a result of the right wing, uh, conspiracy theory about this, uh, saying it over and over again, when you say something over and over again, like Trump says things over and over, people start to believe it. And so some guy came with a shotgun or a rifle into that pizza shop, looking for the basement.

A and you don’t really believe this. Do you Alex,

[00:01:18] Alex Tsakiris: see Rob you’re you are so incredibly misinformed. I don’t believe you spew this stuff out like that. Here’s what, here’s what Pizzagate was .



[00:01:26] Alex Tsakiris: The emails, reference spirit cooking, which was very offensive to a lot of people of a kind of Christian persuasion. Yeah. And then you’d have to understand what spirit cooking is and you’d have to understand what, uh, Crowley, you know, is the guy who kind of directed that.

So right. You’d have to dive deep into the cul and understand that have intelligent conversation, but I want you to, I just want you to own. I just want you to own what you said, Rob, because what you said was just not, you, you started out by saying Alex, you believe in Pizzagate, and I’ve just demonstrated to you that you have no idea what Pizzagate was.

You had it all wrong. That’s what Pizzagate was. Now the fact that a guy did take a gun and go shoot up that, that. That restaurant and he really just shot the safe is what has become the meme that people like you pick up on and say, that’s Pizzagate some right wing nut, conspiracy, theorist shot up this thing.

It’s much more accurate to say what Pizzagate was, was these, these emails that were released in an attempt to undermine Hillary Clinton’s campaign by painting her to be connected to a cult practices. And well, particularly what they, what really stuck was that she was connected to a cult practices, right.

And satanic practices. And that had a, a, a, a dense, a very substantial, I, we don’t know how substantial, but it definitely had an impact on her campaign. Right. So you just got that wrong.


Stick around. I have a rebroadcast of my interview with Rob and Trish McGregor. From the mystical underground.

[00:03:08] Trish MacGregor:


Welcome to the mystical underground. Thank you for joining us. This is Trish McGregor.

[00:03:13] Alex Tsakiris: And Rob and Rob McGregor

[00:03:15] Trish MacGregor: and our producer and tech magician, John Posey, you can go to the mystical or we make regular blog posts where you can find out about our books among them are phenomena, harnessing your psychic abilities, the secrets of SP communication, sensing the future and aliens in the backyard.

Our upcoming book is called the shift reports from the mystical underground Trisha’s new novel white Crow is now available on Amazon. Rob has been slowly releasing the audio edition of Indiana Jones and the staff of Kings.

[00:03:46] Rob MacGregor: Our guest, our guest today is Alex Sakara, who is the author of why science is wrong about almost everything.

And also why evil matters. Alex formerly was a research associate at the university of Arizona while pursuing a PhD in artificial intelligence. He left academia in order to found mind path technologies, a successful ITM firm, which was acquired in 1996. Alex began as popular podcast skeptical in 2007 and has interviewed hundreds of people exploring the nature of the universe and beyond welcome back, Alex.

[00:04:25] Alex Tsakiris: To see you, Alex, you Rob . Thank you, Trish. Thanks to both of you. You know, I was just remarking to Rob. He kind of sent me this thing, said, Hey, send a bio. And I was like, caught my track cycle. Wait a minute. I’m interviewing you guys. Because every time, every time we start this email chain, Rob starts sending me these stories and they’re like true stories.

They’re not like fake stories like, oh yeah. I remember the time when, you know, Whitley, streamer and us were, you know, kicking around these ideas while we’re in Mitch Pichu or wherever it was. I’m like, I wanna hear that story, you know? Yeah.

[00:05:04] Rob MacGregor: So I, I noticed, uh, the titles of both of your books, Alex, begin with the word, why.

Why? Why, why is

[00:05:10] Alex Tsakiris: that well, I, I think, uh, I think questions are at the heart of everything. You know, the, the ethos of skeptic is inquiry to perpetuate doubt mm-hmm so I’m, I’m always in that inquiry mode, because I think that’s the core essence of spirituality is to always be always be in the moment, always be seeking, always be trying to understand more.

So, yeah. It’s I didn’t think of it that way, but I think that’s probably the deep psychological answer, right?

[00:05:42] Trish MacGregor: Yeah. I have a question. Few Alex, when you travel and meet new people, are you always asking why.

[00:05:49] Alex Tsakiris: Well, see, I get warm up by not traveling and not me. I found my spot. I found my spot here in Southern California in Del Mar outside of San Diego.

And I stay here. I go to the beach with the dog and I do my yoga and I come back with the fam and that’s it. But no, seriously. I mean, I ask why on the show all the time I ask why and I, and I love, you know, I really do in lo love the, the podcasting thing. And I think it’s so cool that you guys, and I want to hear about how one of the things I wanna know is how the podcasting journey has been for you guys, cuz you guys are, are, are writers, you know, deep, deep in your bones.

Yeah. You guys are writers and now you’re doing this podcast thing and I see that a book is coming out of the podcast. So right. What’s up with that?

[00:06:40] Rob MacGregor: That you did. You did the same. With

[00:06:42] Alex Tsakiris: evil, but see, no, I did that. I did it with both of them, but kind of the opposite way around. See, I’m not a writer at all.

The only way I was able to put out these books is cause I had a podcast and I had all these interviews. You guys wrote a hundred books and then you did this podcast. I think. So what’s that? What has that experience been like for y’all it’s

[00:07:00] Rob MacGregor: a different, it’s great. Yeah. It’s a different mode for us though, you know, uh, being, uh, you know, coming on and uh, talking with people.

I mean, we, we were doing, being interviewed a lot, uh, when our books came out, but we hadn’t, uh, I, I, I always thought that would be the worst thing to do is have a podcast and have to get people and find people and do this every week. But eh, we’ve been doing it so three years ago

[00:07:27] Trish MacGregor: and also John’s our facilitator and a synchronicity, uh, enabled this podcast.

We were on, both of us were on Instagram, one. I, this is back in January, 2020, and we were talking, I think John wasn’t about star war. Or Indiana Jones anyway, one or the other. And then all of a sudden, John says, Hey, have you thought about having a podcast and a week before Rob and I had been talking about it, but we didn’t, we didn’t know what to do.

so the long came John and facilitated the whole thing. Thank you.

[00:07:58] John Posey: And it, it, well, you’re welcome and I’ve enjoyed it too, but it, it all started just because I could not find my old copies of, uh, the expanded uni, uh, expanded university, Indiana Jones novels. So I ordered them and they weren’t available in, uh, they weren’t available in EUB.

So I ordered a. Another set off Amazon and posted a picture of them on, on, uh, cuz I wanted to reread ’em and post a picture on Instagram and uh, tagged Rob McGregor and uh, Trish showed up on their account on that post and then it all came back from there.

[00:08:30] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. Well that’s really cool. You know, and I, I would like, and, and we’ll see how this flows today, but, um, Now when every, whenever anyone says something like this, it makes it sound like you guys are old.

But what I, what I really wanna say is you guys are a treasure trove of kind of this lived history with some really important people that, um, I, I almost feel like we need to do a couple of shows on skeptical where you guys just kind of do tell these stories because they’re amazing, you know, like the Joe MCON, uh, story

I mean, well, they tell that one now I, I do. I do. And, and cuz it’s a, it’s almost like a jumping off point for all these things that we might talk about in terms of truth. And it also intersects with some of the stuff I’ve done. So, uh right. Maybe start off with, uh, who, who is Joe MCLE and how did you guys get to know him?

And then, you know, what, what if I’m gonna ask that question? Here’s how I would frame it up, cuz I’d frame it up with. This thing that kind of Rob led us into, because I think this is also at the core of this kind of truth thing that we want to, that I really wanna explore. I really wanna know where you guys are coming from.

Is that. Like I came at this thing from a totally different perspective. You guys came at it as, uh, writers and as storytellers and as, I mean, shoot, you know, I mean, you guys write both fiction and nonfiction and you’re collecting real stories and you’re making up stories and then you’re also incorporating all these different experiences from all these people.

I didn’t come at it from that way at all. I mean, I came at it as one. My training is as a computer programmer. There are no stories in computer programming. your program either works or it doesn’t work. There is no everyone’s opinion matters. If it, if everyone’s opinion matter, you have programs that just don’t work.

And then I came from a business background. We’re the same way you either, you know, make the sale, make the money or you, or you go broke, you know, there, isn’t kind of in between and you guys are in a, or in a different world and. It’s a necess and you’re on the fringes of that world, but you’re doing it in kind of a very, I don’t know, in a very kind of interesting way.

And then along the way, you’ve collected these amazing accounts with all these people who are also kind of on the edge of trying to figure out what this reality thing is. Yeah. So with that, I mean, that kind of really sets the, the stage in a way for who is Joe MCON and why did he think a hurricane was coming?

[00:11:20] Trish MacGregor: That that story begins with Nancy MCLE his, his wife, and, um, for a decade, Rob and I wrote this Sidney arm, Omar astrology. It was a series of 13 books a year. And I had asked scooter that’s her nickname to submit an article. So that’s how I got, we got to know her and then eventually we got to know Joe, and I think it was in 2005, Rob, wasn’t it?

That we went to ARA?

[00:11:48] Rob MacGregor: Well, we went, uh, like a two, three other places with them before that. Uh, so they became traveling partners down to the keys and

[00:11:58] Trish MacGregor: right AU. Oh, I know it was when they were interview. It was when Joe was reading for Bruce gin, right? Yeah. About what happened on Bruce gin’s REU triangle flight

[00:12:08] Alex Tsakiris: now, now, but before you go there, remind people, remind people who Joe is because he is like a, a super in my mind, he is a super important figure in.

In this whole thing.

[00:12:20] Rob MacGregor: Yeah. Remote viewing, uh, he’s number zero one. uh, yeah, he doesn’t really call him psychic. He’s a remote viewer, but, uh, so clairvoyant, clairvoyant, and, uh, he is learned this, uh, through the oddly enough while he is in the army. Uh, and, uh, he became a part of this group that, uh, we’re doing.

Viewing of the Russians and, uh, all kinds of different spy type things in the, uh, mid eighties, uh, for about 17 years. And then they, they, all of them wanted to remote view UFOs they started getting into that as well.

[00:13:02] Trish MacGregor: And then, but explain, he, he was married to scooter whose stepfather was Robert Monroe.

Right. So he had, so that’s another grow Institute that,

[00:13:10] Rob MacGregor: that was the, yeah. Right. And he is, he’s been at the Monroe Institute many times as a speaker and a leader workshop leader, just workshops. Right. And, uh,

[00:13:21] Alex Tsakiris: So, and one other couple other things to add before you get to the hurricane story cause it sets it up in a way.

So I, I talked to, uh, I talked to Joe on this show and, uh, cuz I’ve always been very interested in the NK ultra stuff, you know, and a lot of people forget that the remote viewing project Russell tar Cal put off Stanford research Institute was under the very, very nefarious MK ultra, where they were doing these just horrible things to people and uh, probably killing people, but certainly destroying people’s lives, erasing their brains and doing all these other just ridiculously insane experiments on people in order to manipulate their consciousness.

Well, there were 150 MK ultra programs. So not all of them can be painted with the same brush and certainly the Stargate program, which was the remote viewing program. seems by all accounts. That’s one they always wanna lead with, cuz it seems kind of a white night thing, you know, let’s just do remote, psychic, spying on the Russians.

But what I always thought was interesting about Joe’s story is he told me that he told me the story about like he is in, uh, looks like out of a spy movie he’s on the east German west German border at this restaurant. He said where all the spies would go, you know? And he was there having lunch. And he starts feeling sick and he realizes he’s been poisoned and he starts staggering to the door thinking he’s gonna die.

And he does die. He dies right there. As he’s exiting the restaurant, a couple of his buddies, grab him, throw him in a Jeep. All of a sudden he’s outside of his body, looking down, they go to the Jeep to an ambulance, to the hospital. He is having an out body experience. He’s having a near death experience.

This is his first encounter with anything like this. He awakes from his near death experience. He awakes from being dead. Clearly he is clinically dead during this time. And in his face are two of his associates, right? His boss, two of his superiors who were like, okay, what’s going on? And he doesn’t know whether to tell them that he’s just been to the other side and he doesn’t know how that’s gonna sit with these intelligence guys are what he should.

But the part of that story that I thought was, has a couple of links to it. Uh, that, that I think are interesting. He says when he went to Stanford to, uh, Stanford research Institute for inter to interview, as part of joining the remote remote viewing club, Stargate, Stargate, yeah. It was either Russell tar or Hal put off as interviewing him.

They open up his secret file employee file and they pull out Raymond Moody’s book, you know, the near death experience book. And he said at that point, he realized that they understood. The connection mm-hmm they not only stood, they only, they not only understood what happened to him, but they understood the connection.

They understood that this was somehow in some way, they weren’t able to fully understand. At that point, there was some connection in this extended consciousness realm between the near death experiences and between what they were doing. Then one other postscript I’d add to that is I interviewed ed may.

Who’s really pretty obnoxious person. He was, he

[00:16:55] Rob MacGregor: ran good, but a good friend of Joe’s too

[00:16:58] Alex Tsakiris: great. Cause like when ed may ran the Stargate program for 10 years. Yeah. Ed may, when I asked him about this, he said, no, that didn’t happen. Really, really, really well. What do you, what do you mean that didn’t happen? I interviewed Joe it’s in his book.

He said it on air. He said, no, there’s absolutely no connection at all, between near death experience or between his experience and remote viewing. Wow. And then I also asked him about Dean Raden and he said, he said, these, you know, Dean Raden. He said, basically, you know, he’s a nice guy, but he doesn’t know what he’s doing.

and then later he said, after the interview, he immediately said, Hey, don’t publish that interview. And I know people and you better not publish that interview. Wow. Of course I published the inter yeah. I mean, of course I published the interview anyway. I mean, he’s just ed may but had may , but, but I think it’s interesting.

I mean, in terms of fitting in my larger, uh, project, in terms of how there is this definite goal to make you think you are. Not an, a mystical world that you are that’s called gas, biological well, it’s, it’s also called, uh, you’re a biological robot in a meaningless universe. So just do what we say. You don’t have any exactly.

There’s nothing more to you. So why are you even worried about all this stuff? You are just there, get the jab, shut up, do what we say. Put the mask on Uhhuh, do all the rest of this stuff. But the

[00:18:29] Rob MacGregor: truth of the matter is that Joe’s out of body experience, uh, near death experience is probably what triggered some of his abilities.

Oh, absolutely. And, uh, yeah, he also fell out of a helicopter in Vietnam too, and survived that

[00:18:43] Alex Tsakiris: I didn’t know that may had something to do it also.

[00:18:45] Rob MacGregor: It was in that movie. Uh, the goats. What is the, the,

[00:18:49] Alex Tsakiris: oh, the goat men who stare at

[00:18:50] Rob MacGregor: goats. Yeah. Who star at goats? Goats. He hated that movie. He never watched it. I remember him scooter saying, don’t mention that movie to him.

He does not wanna watch it.

[00:19:01] Alex Tsakiris: So, so that’s that, that to me, that’s who Joe MCON is. Yeah. Uh, you know, and now you guys are on vacation with him cuz you guys like hanging out as two couples and you’re down in the keys.

[00:19:15] Trish MacGregor: No, we were in The Bahamas. Oh no. The first time, the first time the keys. Yeah. The

[00:19:20] Rob MacGregor: first time was the keys.

It was, uh, related. I co authored a book on, uh, Bermuda, tri a couple books in the Bermuda triangle, uh, with, um, Bruce gin. And uh, so I, I had Joe take a look, uh, psychically and remote viewing on some four different, uh, experiences from the, the book and uh, including one. Involving a UFO experience where, uh, first of all, just briefly explaining who Bruce Garan is.

He explain what happened to him. yeah. Yeah. If, if you’ve ever seen any, uh, learning channel, his history channel, uh, any of those documentaries on the Bermuda triangle, you’ll almost always see Bruce Keren usually towards the end, because he is got one of the best stories and, uh, because he survived the Bermuda triangle and he had a, like a time travel experience involving, uh, it, and, uh, so, uh, that happened, I think in, uh, December of 1971 and it changed his life and he, he talks, he thinks about it every day.

He still thinks about it. It defined his life. Yeah. I mean, I just got an email from him about the Bermuda triangle today. so, uh, and anyhow, uh, a month after that experience, He was with a girlfriend. They went out on a, uh, private plane flight out of Miami. And because the girlfriend had never been in a small plane at night.

So he wanted to, you know, it’s a romantic thing. He wanted to show her the stars. And, uh, so they fly off the coast, uh, about 20 miles or so. And, uh, one of them says, oh, look at that star in the distance there, that orange star. And they look at it and it is getting bigger and orange it’s orange and is coming right at them.

It’s not a star at all. And, uh, and it’s getting closer and closer and Bruce tries to maneuver the plane to avoid it, but he knows he can’t can’t do it. And suddenly, boom, it’s gone and you know what happened to it? So Joe said, what happened is that. They were captured, they were AB abducted. Now Bruce does not like being an abductee

He wants to not, he has no memory of that. uh, but that that’s, but that

[00:21:49] Trish MacGregor: also happened on his flight. Joe said that is abducted on, on the initial yeah. On the initial flight.

[00:21:56] Rob MacGregor: Yeah. Right on the initial part of the flight where he left, uh, um, what is the name of the island Andros island? Uh, uh, and they were, they’re heading towards the, uh, Florida coast and there was this very strange cloud, uh, that looked, uh, like an elliptical cloud that you’d see like, uh, 10,000 feet above a, up above a mountain.

And it’s just above the ocean. Uh, and it’s like a huge UFO looking shape about a mile across. And so he goes around it and continues on, and then he notices that

[00:22:33] Alex Tsakiris: this.

[00:22:35] Rob MacGregor: Seemingly very calm cloud starts expanding and it shoots out arms on either side and it seems to be following them and, and growing and growing and there.

So he goes up and tries to get above this cloud and he goes down and tries to get below it. He can’t do either. And then he sees another one in front of them doing the same thing, spreading out arms, the, the arms all link. So he is inside a huge donut, like 25 mile diameter donut. And he, uh, tries to get above again.

He looks like it goes up 40, 50,000 feet. He can’t go over it. He goes down, is coming right out of the ocean. But then he sees this tunnel where the arms are coming together and he tries to, he says, this is our only way out of here. And his father who is also pilot is freaking out. Uh, so they, they, uh, Head for that tunnel.

And as they get to the tunnel, it starts collapsing. The clouds are spinning, uh, counterclockwise in the tunnel and it’s shrinking, uh, all the instruments, electronic instruments go out. Uh, there’s no radio. And, uh, oh, before the, before they entered the cloud, they had contacted the Miami tower and the Miami tower said, there’s no, there’s no airplane out there by BIM, which is where they thought they were.

Uh, and they go through this tunnel and, uh, because they see blue sky on the other side, they get through it and there’s no more blue sky. It’s just kind of a yellow fog and they’re flying. And then the, the. The instruments are still working, but the, the radio comes back on and say, oh, we picked you up. Uh, we see a plane coming right over Miami beach.

And Bruce says, no, we’re out by BIM. And he looks down there, all the fog disappears and there’s Miami beach. Uh, so that was the, the timing experience way

[00:24:32] Alex Tsakiris: off. Yeah. Well you, you know, like, so we’ve all heard kind of those, there, there’s so many interesting parts of that. We jump off so many ways. I have a friend who I kind of have note through skeptical, fantastic researcher recently got his PhD is probably one of the leading authorities on, uh, precognitive dreams and is chronicled all these dreams.

So anyways, we’ve been talking. Yeah, well, we will, we will, I was gonna leave the name out it. Cause I tell story, I love

[00:25:04] Trish MacGregor: his stories.

[00:25:07] Alex Tsakiris: I’m sorry. Okay, Andy. Okay. Andy, you’ve been totally outed here. Okay. Andy’s telling me this. I can, I can, I can

[00:25:14] John Posey: edit that

[00:25:15] Alex Tsakiris: out if we want. You guys decide.

[00:25:19] John Posey: Okay. I’m sorry. Real quick.

Since I jumped in, Rob, can you, I was worried about audio when we started. Can you tilt your, can you tilt your, uh, desktop, uh, camera back just a little bit. So you’re so you’re oh, your cat’s cutting off

[00:25:30] Alex Tsakiris: a little

[00:25:31] Rob MacGregor: bit. Oh, okay. Sorry. Better. Little bit more. Okay.

[00:25:35] John Posey: Little bit more smidge more. There you go.

You’re good. Sorry about that. I was disappearing. Okay. All sorry. I’ll get mut. Okay.

[00:25:44] Alex Tsakiris: So this relates to your story, cuz this guy whose name we won’t mention is driving across the desert with his mom. And I think his sister’s in the backseat. They see this strange light. They pull off the side of the road.

they wind up back in the car and it’s like four hours later. The morning news is coming on and I go, and he is telling me this and he is telling me all these other paranormal things that happen to him. And I’m like, you know, I mean, like I’m trying to be sensitive, which I’m not always so great at, but I go, this is a classic missing time abduction story.

Right. You see the light missing time, something at da, da, da. And he couldn’t really go there. I mean, it, it’s not like he’s like locking up, but I just think that’s interesting with the guy you’re mentioning here. It’s that there’s so many, there’s so many ways to process that both from a human level, what do we, what do we screen out in our.

Ordinary consciousness, you know, suppressed memories, repressed memories, all that kind of stuff. And then is that process being aided and facilitated by these entities who are interfering with or creating that process. So I just think there’s a lot to that. And I always also, yeah, I’ll just leave it at that.

We can all just talk about all these stories, but the other thing that’s related to that I think, or I think may be related, but I don’t hear us always talking about the connection is the implanted memories. And I always think of, uh, Ray Hernandez from the free project where, uh, his wife is having, having this incredible experience downstairs with this E with et, and he walks gets halfway down the stairs and then he turns around and remembers a very.

Dominant voice like his own voice saying, oh, this is ridiculous. I’m going to go back upstairs and go to bed. wow. So you pull back from that and you go, well, that doesn’t make any logical sense. It sounds like a screened memory. And you gotta wonder if the same thing is going on here when people approach that and you lay it out to him, you know, like you guys do as kind of part of your thing of collecting store and say, really that’s interesting.

And then you don’t, this is a missing time, but no, you weren’t abducted or anything like, no, no, no. You know what I mean? I mean, right. Mm-hmm

[00:28:15] Rob MacGregor: so, so I, I, I have an interesting story about Joe though. We get back to Joe here and Trish wants to tell her story about Joe, but the, the one we were in the keys, uh, in Bruce G’s, uh, hit a, a house down there and we were staying there and.

We had this, uh, we had, uh, our daughter and a friend and they were out, uh, with, on a kayak and they had some diving gear or just, uh, snorkeling gear. Yeah. And it flip, flipped tipped over and, uh, it sank and they were, ah, just 50, 75 feet off shore. They came in and there were like two sets of it. And I went out, looked to, to grab the stuff and I found just one set of goggles, nothing else, you know, I’m right in that area.

And so Joe decides to remote view this thing which from the house, you know, I mean, it’s, it’s very close. Uh, wait a minute. This was not this. Where was this? Trish? This was the, okay. I don’t think it was. It was not at Bruce’s house. We, we stayed at a, another friend of our else’s house. Yeah, yeah. Right. Uh, so this is right on, on the water.

It doesn’t matter for the story it’s it is still in the keys. It’s just a different key. And anyhow, so, uh, Joe Joe decides, uh, to remote view it. And he, and he’s working way in scooters saying, don’t do it, Joe. Don’t you’re on vacation. Don’t do it. and he can’t find it. You know, he’s, he’s searching for searching for it.

You know, you expect this guy, you know, super, uh, remote viewer, number one to nail that sucker, you know, you can’t find, and, and finally, you know, he’s, I must have drifted off or something. I don’t know, big. I was out there looking for it. It’s just kind of a funny story. I mean, uh, the, you know, that things don’t always work as you expect them to work.

[00:30:15] Alex Tsakiris: That’s that’s a perfect, that’s a perfect lead in to Trisha’s story, right? Yeah.

[00:30:21] Trish MacGregor: So we decided to meet scooter and Joe. In Eluthra and it’s a really it’s, it’s the largest, I think it’s one of the largest, uh,

[00:30:30] Alex Tsakiris: keys it’s long,

[00:30:31] Rob MacGregor: it’s longest skinny longest. It is in the, and address is the largest

[00:30:36] Trish MacGregor: that’s right.

And, uh, we rent in a house and I had been sort, now this is in the days before the iPhone. Okay. I had like a, a Blackberry. That was my only connection to the outside world. So I was kept trying to keep tabs on this system that had formed off the coast of, uh, of Florida. And it eventually became a, a cat one.

So I said to Joe and scooter, I said, well, we better. I feel like this thing is gonna hit here. So we need to go get some groceries. And so first though, we went to the library and I used their computer and showed, you know, national hurricane center where they had this, this hurricane center and where it was going its path and all that.

Now the backstory of this is I had been studying. Hurricanes for a novel called cat five that hits my island tango key that I created fictionally. So I knew quite a bit about hurricanes. So at the, at the library, Joe was kind of leaning over my show and he says, this isn’t gonna hit us. I said, Joe, it is gonna hit us and we need to go get groceries.

You know, we need camp food, we need water. We need blah, blah, blah. I went through my hurricane list. And so finally we did, we did go to the grocery store and got some supplies and we get back to the house and he’s still insisting. It’s not gonna hit. I said, yes, it is. And sure enough, it did hit as a cat one.

We lost power, not just for a day. We lost power for the rest of the time we were there. And the rain was so bad that we had to. Take it out, not, but we, we removed from the house.

[00:32:12] Rob MacGregor: Yeah. The water was up to six feet in one area and there was only one road out, uh, and the water was covering the road and, uh, we were basically transferred stranded.

Yeah. And, uh, and the, the, even the toilets wouldn’t flush, we had to take a bucket and go down to shore. And I would, I would wait out like up to my ankles and put down the bucket and then a, a wave would wash over my head, knock me down as I’m trying to get water for the toilet, you know, it was a disaster basically.

[00:32:41] Trish MacGregor: uh, then we’d sit at night with flashlights and play Scrabble. that was about the only thing we


[00:32:46] Rob MacGregor: do. Yeah. And, uh, then there were, there were people, we saw people that were also trapped, uh, carrying luggage on their head and walking in up to water in their waist, past the house where we were staying.

[00:32:58] Alex Tsakiris: And, uh, it was, but no, now wait a minute. Did, did Joe claim that he had remote viewed it and that’s how he knew it or he was just looking over the, I don’t know.

[00:33:08] Rob MacGregor: I don’t know that that’s the thing is when you’re, uh, a psych, you ha have these abilities, you know, you say things, uh, sometimes that, you know, you expect to be taken as an authority, even though you’re not tuned in psychically.

And I think that was kind of that case, but it was also a case that. He did not want that hurricane to hit us because we just got there , you know, and he was kinda wishing it away, I guess. Uh, and Trish, wasn’t trying to bring it in, but she was being, you know, more realistic about what she was seeing. Uh, you know, and I mean,

[00:33:44] Trish MacGregor: the national hurricane sitter knows that they know their business, you know?

[00:33:47] Rob MacGregor: Yeah. Uh, so, you know, it’s so, so he wasn’t remote doing it at all, but he, you know, but anyhow, uh, that

[00:33:55] Alex Tsakiris: see, I, I agree. I, I don’t think you can really like psychics and remote viewers and they’re different, but they’re maybe similar. They’re not supposed to be on all the time. So there’s two different things.

One they’re not on all the time. Right. But number two, when they’re on, they’re not accurate all the time. And I think that’s a, that’s a really important part of it. Hey, you know, that’s the reason, like the reason I originally contacted you guys was, uh, or one of the reasons was cuz the interview series you did with, uh, Preston Deni.

Who’s been on your show a couple of times. Yeah. And I said, you know, this is kind of a process I’m really interested in and that’s that, how do we find out who’s who’s credible and, you know, back to this thing, are we about collecting stories or are we about nudging towards some kind of truth? Uh, what is our responsibility for making sure that people are being truthful, both intentionally being truthful or intentionally deceiving or inadvertently being untruthful, inadvertently deceiving, or being self delusion, delusional, uh, kind of thing.

It’s, it’s an issue that I think pops up over and over again. And I think it’s especially relevant to the UFO community because the whole story of UFOs, I think, is this story of, uh, Very very sophisticated, uh, misinformation and disinformation. And I think in a lot of ways they should be studied as revealing the kind of tools and methods for the larger kind of social engineering that seems to be going on all around us, whether it’s, you know, whatever the issue is, everything is a SIOP.

Now everything is controlled information and we’re like used to it now. But I think the origins of that within this UFO topic are, are quite revealing, you know, because we have people like Richard Doty, you know, and Paul Benowitz who, you know, where it’s, it’s open, it’s out in the open, we can study what they did and how they did the misinformation, particularly in a post disclosure versus.

Pre disclosure kind of world, you know, we can look back when they denied all this stuff. And now we can look at where it’s now an official part of the story. Right. And then we can compare that to the misinformation disinformation during that period. And I think we, we get a really, really interesting, uh, kind of perspective.

So as stories, you know about Preston didn’t yeah. So as story collectors, which you guys are what’s what, how responsible is Preston for telling for his stories, him being responsible for his stories being truthful, whether he’s intentionally lying or not. I

[00:36:45] Trish MacGregor: don’t think he’s intentionally lying. Why I like Preston is he has done so much research and he’s poured this research into his books.

I mean, who’d ever think about writing a book about UFOs over drive-ins, you know, but he’s collected the stories or what, what was his other one robbed about? Uh, He’s done collected about UFOs over various states. Yeah,

[00:37:10] Rob MacGregor: lots of just in odd places, 27 or 28. But, uh, the thing is he just lays those stories out there.

He has very little analysis related to, to the stories and he, he doesn’t.

[00:37:23] Alex Tsakiris: Uh, he doesn’t dissect them. Yeah. He

[00:37:26] Rob MacGregor: doesn’t dissect them. He doesn’t, uh, question them. He just says, okay, this is what they’re saying that, so here here’s the story. And more or less it’s up to you to whether you believe it or not.

And, uh, no.

[00:37:37] Alex Tsakiris: It’s like entertaining. No, no, that’s not. No, that’s not it at all. I just re-listen to the interview that you guys gave with him and he gives, he has plenty of analysis about why they’re doing it, why they allowed Dolly to pilot this shit. Oh, in that sense, why they don’t reveal what they could reveal, how these videos were collected, what he saw.

Yeah. Dolly’s

[00:38:00] Rob MacGregor: another Dolly. His latest book is another case. Uh, he, he does go into more, uh, analysis about

[00:38:08] Alex Tsakiris: her story and, well, I’ve heard plenty of other interviews with him where he, he makes all sorts of claims that to me, just, uh, Need to be challenged. I I’m a believer, you know, but the way I process this data and the, the reliable sources is a lot different than, uh, Preston Deni does.

And I think when, whenever people claim that, you know, oh, they don’t, they don’t, don’t worry about anyone who doesn’t believe me cuz they’re skeptics and stuff like that. I I’m very, uh, reluctant to that. You know, I, the people that I most respect in this field. Are very open to the fact that they have to establish what they know and how they know it.

Uh, you know, the best they can. Uh, one of the guys I really like is, uh, Robert Hastings and I’ve never interviewed him, but I had a very nice email exchange with him. And he’s of course, the guy who did the UFO and nukes thing for 40 years, he investigated it. And you guys are familiar with that. No doubt.

But out of that comes. Some very important, like data. Like they shut down the freaking nukes one at a time and they shut down 10 of them and then they turned them on and then they go, the wall comes down in Russia and they go over and they find that, Hey, the same thing happened to the Ukraine and us Sr.

And they activated the nukes and he has all the officials from the air force and other who confirm that, that did happen. Mm-hmm so, you know, there’s a guy who very carefully goes through the data. And then at the very end adds that, well, I am an experiencer and my mom’s an experience, but that doesn’t have anything to do with the way I’ve constructed this story.

I’ve constructed this story with 140 of the most reliable witnesses you could find. And

[00:39:59] Trish MacGregor: what’s the name of his book? Does he have a book?

[00:40:03] Alex Tsakiris: Oh, Robert Hastings. He has, uh, several books, uh, UFOs

and Nokes yeah, UFOs, uh, UFOs and Nokes UFOs. And Nokes, this was a,

[00:40:13] Rob MacGregor: is this a nuclear base in Montana that they shut down? Is that the one you’re

[00:40:16] Alex Tsakiris: talking about? He there, you know, the, he really investigated, like he has, there are multiple ones of these. Oh, okay. Sixties. Oh, in the forties, fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties.

Mm-hmm wow. There, there are, uh, reports of this, but the, and it it’s super important information, I think. And, and data sets because it says so many things. And I mean, since you got, I can’t, I’m surprised, I should say that you guys are not aware of that kind of stuff. Cause I thought it was kinda, yeah, I’m not aware

[00:40:48] Trish MacGregor: of that one,

[00:40:50] Alex Tsakiris: but you know, was the most interesting, the most interesting part of my email exchange with, uh, with, uh, Hastings is, um, Like, uh, Preston D gives this kind of environmental speech, which is really kind of silly, you know, that, Hey, the ETS here to save us and, you know, he’s green just like us and wants to save the planet and all this other nonsense, he just has no support for and, and is not supported by the larger data that we see.

And I’m an environmentalist, but

[00:41:23] Rob MacGregor: I, I, I don’t trust. I disagree with that. I think there’s a lot of, uh, experiences who say the very same thing about the environment. That that’s their message. And that goes all the way back to Betty Hill.

[00:41:34] Alex Tsakiris: So to Betty Hill. So, so there’s a lot of people say that, you know, you know, what a direct, uh, point on that is.

Do you know how Kenneth ring is? Yeah. Yeah. It’s a

[00:41:42] Rob MacGregor: very out of body

[00:41:44] Alex Tsakiris: research. Well, it was a near death near death experience researcher, and then got interested in the out body and et, you know, back in the, back in the day, like in late eighties, there were a lot of near death experiencers who were. Coming forward.

There’s a pattern of people saying, I see these catastrophic cataclysmic, environmental things happening. And they were even specifically pointing to a date. 1988 was the date. And then there was a, a researcher in the UK that actually replicated the work with other NDE re and they were all pointing towards the same date, 1988.

And of course that day came and went and nothing like that happened. So there really, so, yeah, there’s a lot of those stories, but when we looked to inde independently, verify that, and I’m an environmentalist. I just don’t. I just don’t think the data for the, uh, cataclysmic global warming, uh, science hijack, which has been done is supported by the scientific evidence.

It just clearly isn’t, it is clearly a scam. It is clearly an abomination of science. So the truth about the environment is, is gonna have to be found someplace else, cuz it isn’t gonna be found in the lies that are being, let me ask

[00:43:11] Trish MacGregor: you question, Alex, if you have a personal experience about any of this, say UFO or a climate change or whatever, do you believe your own experience?


[00:43:24] Alex Tsakiris: I, I think that’s an, I think that’s a great question. And it’s really at the core of a lot of this. Yeah, it is because, because like one of the things I’d say is that if we’re really objective about it, like look on one level. none of this is real. I mean, consciousness is fundamental. There is some spiritual dimension of this mm-hmm that, that makes all of this kind of silly, right?

I mean, we’re not really doing anything. We’re just on this little space for a short period of time. And then we’re, it, it appears that our consciousness survives and there is this existence before and after. And in that timeframe, all this stuff is kind of not very well. Lemme tell you very significant, well, let me, lemme just finish, answer your question because I, I think it’s an important question and my answer to it is I I’m very, I’m skeptical of my own individual experience because the evidence suggests that I should be skeptical in the same way that I said when Ray Hernandez is walking down the stairs and the voice inside his, he, his head says.

There’s nothing going on here, go back upstairs and go to bed. Well, should he just, he has to question that experience, even though it’s his own experience, if you’re a near death experience or, and your, your experience falls outside of the range, let’s say, and I’ve interviewed a couple of people. Jesus, it’s all about Jesus.

Anyone who doesn’t see Jesus and doesn’t have Jesus as the central focus of their near death experience, it’s satanic. Do they need to question their experience? They do. They need to look at the broader data. Thousands of cases that have been collected throughout all these different religious traditions.

And they need to say, Hmm, I need to reexamine my experience. I don’t need to deny it, but I need to maybe reexamine it because it doesn’t seem to fit in this broader experience. That’s what I think. Okay

[00:45:25] Trish MacGregor: here, here’s something in 1987, Rob and I were living in Fort Lauderdale and we knew two psychics, Renee Wiley and Tony Graso both were very good psychics, but Renee had this voice that was hypnotic.

And so one night we’re sitting there and she goes, Hey, let me progress you guys to the future. We’ll make it unspecified. And tell me what you see. So I said, okay, this sounds good. Rob said, okay. Tony said fine. And she started talking and I felt myself, you know, going to wherever that place is when you’re under hypnosis.

And I saw myself as a very tall, bald woven living in a dome because the world outside was so toxic. It was just that image. So two years later, I run across a book. Called mass dreams of the future. It was by Helen Womba, who was a psychologist who was known as a past life progression. Well, apparently at one point she went to Europe and progressed 20, like over 2000 people to the future.

She said 2100, she would take. And one of the three scenarios that came out of this was a, was people living in a dome, just like what I saw, you know? And she said it was because the outside world was so toxic. Well, for me, that was kind of a confirmation of what I had seen,

[00:46:48] Rob MacGregor: but she, she saw like

[00:46:49] Alex Tsakiris: three D

[00:46:51] Trish MacGregor: from yeah.

Three, three or four different options. Yeah.

[00:46:53] Rob MacGregor: Options of, and that was one of them. The future one was a more, a primitive existence where there was no internet and right. Uh, and the,

[00:47:02] Trish MacGregor: another was a space station. Yeah. Right. Then there was some

[00:47:05] Alex Tsakiris: other,

[00:47:06] Rob MacGregor: yeah, I think there were just three and then the dome.

[00:47:09] Trish MacGregor: Yeah, the world.

Yeah. So anyway, film cities in 1989, my daughter was born the day after she was born. It was about one 30 in the morning. They’d just taken her back to the nursery. So I laid back down and I hear somebody calling my name. Now I was not drugged. I was just, you know, sleepy. So I thought, well, that’s weird. So I sat up, nobody else in the ward is awake.

The door’s shut. There’s nobody standing there. So I laid back down and I realized that the voice was internal. So I said, so I laid down. I said, okay, what is this? And I had an incredibly vivid image of my daughter or a granddaughter at some point in the future and Megan or whoever this was said, I need to know what you all were doing when I was born, where did you live?

I need all the facts. What time was I born? You know, all this kind of stuff. So I said why? And she said, because all the records had been destroyed. I thought, oh, okay. So I gave her the information she asked for, and then. That was it, but that was like another piece of that same progression that Renee had done in 1987.

But that’s what it

[00:48:19] Alex Tsakiris: felt like, but none of right. So are there any reasons, are there any reasons to be. Uh, to consider alternatives to that reality that you saw or the precognitive experience. Are there anyone who’s had a precognitive experience that’s different from yours that then we would have to kind of say, well, gee one has to be right.

One has to be wrong. Or there has to be these multiple timelines, which is kind of impossible to go on. And, you know, I can, Ian McCormick is the guy who had the near death experience and he’s, it’s all about Jesus. And if it’s not about Jesus, it’s about Satan. So, and he’s sure of that. He’s dead. He was dead.

As a matter of fact, he was really dead. He got bit by or stung by, uh, no, he really was by, uh, box jellyfish, you know, highly toxic God, seven times he was in the morgue. He was in the morgue for. Couple hours in this little island. So he was really there and he went and saw Jesus and Jesus told him all these things.

So who do I trust? Who do I trust? Do I trust Ian? He saw Jesus or do I trust Trish? I mean, you didn’t see Jesus on this. Did you? Jesus. Didn’t tell you that. Oh, okay. Well then we gotta go

[00:49:29] Rob MacGregor: with Ian,

[00:49:29] Alex Tsakiris: right? Oh, but we gotta go with Ian. We gotta go with his story. He’s a Christian, right? That’s what I’m saying. I mean, why we have to sort this out and then I’m telling you, Ken ring, Ken ring had all these near death experiences come back and said 1988 is the end of the world.

[00:49:45] Trish MacGregor: Yeah. I don’t know. You know, it’s but this is something that has perplexed me my whole life, you know, it’s it’s like, okay, do you, if you have an experience, do you disbelieve your own experience?

[00:49:57] Alex Tsakiris: Yes. That’s the whole thing. Be very, be very suspicious, be very skeptical of your own experience. It’s just an experience.

It’s just the chattering of your little mind up there that we all have.

[00:50:06] Rob MacGregor: Okay. Let me, let, let me tell you another story. Uh, when Trian, this is when Trisha and I first met, uh, I, we, we found out we both had this very similar interests in the paranormal and we were both involved in lives where nobody around us had any interest in that.

Uh, we were both, uh, reading these, uh, Jane Roberts, Seth books, but nobody else was, and nobody had any interest in these books. And then we found when I, I met her, uh, that we had that, that in common. And so, uh, shortly after I met her, I said, have you ever tried a oui board? Uh let’s let’s pick one up and just see what happens.

So we did, and we got, we got this message to. That it was coming from a UFO and that we should go to the airport and, uh, there would be, uh, a ship would be visible. This, uh, we Trisha was living in Fort Lauderdale. I was in Hollywood. So, uh, it was like one o’clock in the morning. We went out there and we sat out there for, uh, 1230 until we, we sat out there for over an hour, you know, and looking up, uh, there’s there’s no, HFOs here.

There’s this, this, uh, message must, you know, this must be a trickster of some sort. So the next morning I have to get up really early. Uh, and, uh, I’m working on a newspaper and I have this deadline, this, uh, some kind of school board event was going on and I had to call it in, uh, at like nine 30 or so. And then I had to rush back to the office and follow up on it and continue, uh, fill out the story.

And as I finish the person on the next desk, uh, just was finishing her story. And I look over at her ask, so what are you writing about? And she said, oh, there was a UFO cited last night over Perry airport. Well, Perry airport is the small airport, 10 miles from Fort Lauderdale where we were . Yeah. And so that, that story, her story was on the front page of the Hollywood sun.

Taler the next, uh, the next, uh, that afternoon. And, uh, so, so that night we go, let’s go to Perry airport and look for that UFO we do. We did. And there’s no lights on Perry airport at night, you know, it’s really dark. There’s no UFOs either. But as we’re driving away, uh, Trisha and I are in separate cars and I, I turn on the radio and there’s an old fashioned type, uh, radio drama on, which is strange.

I’m, uh, uh, I just kind of gone through the channel. So I started listening and it’s about an alien, an alien is talking in this, this story and, you know, it’s just, uh, like a S weird synchronistic. Yeah. And, you know, uh, we, we, uh, years ago we told this to a, a ologist who very into it and he said, well, you didn’t see any UFOs.

You didn’t meet any aliens. So that’s early, not a story. , but it’s very much of a paranormal psychic event. You know, it’s a very

[00:53:14] Trish MacGregor: much used synchronicity.

[00:53:16] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. yeah. Oh, absolutely. We have no idea. I. The what the, what the relationship is with, uh, synchronicities, without a body experiences with shamonic experiences, with near death experiences, we all all have this sense that it’s connected, but I think this issue of truth is gonna keep gonna keep coming up.

And I think it is central to how we move forward. And I, I just don’t think we can, like again, and, and I really mean this sincerely what I was saying at the beginning. I I’d like to explore this more because. you guys are coming at this from a different perspective. Mm-hmm , which is a very, very valid perspective.

It is your, and it’s also your lived experience. You guys are storytellers, so I can come on pretty strong because I’m trying to jar you out of that mindset, because that is not my mindset. I am not interested in people’s stories. I don’t give a shit about your story. I want I’m under this fantasy that I can move towards something closer to what we would call truth.

So how do you see that playing out? How do you see that drama playing out? Because you guys are also, you know, news reporters. I mean, do you understand that you have to get the story, right? That has to be truthful, right? How was what’s that dynamic? What’s that push and pull, you know, I, I pushed pretty hard on Preston Deni, trying to get a reaction outta you guys.

[00:54:39] Trish MacGregor: Well, the thing is, what you’re talking about is what’s. Why the world was so screwed up now because there’s so much disinformation about everything. And so the United States, the people are just totally divided.

[00:54:51] Alex Tsakiris: Thus, is there a time when it wasn’t? Well, now really? I, I always really, you know, I always point out, I think so much more.

I don’t know, you know, 50 years, 50 years ago,

[00:55:03] Rob MacGregor: uh, during the, uh, uh, time when people were really Divi divided again at, uh, this was, uh, was the same thing. It was, uh, kind of the, the hippie era and the leftist, uh, uh, and the, the, the, uh, people on the right were at each other’s throats, basically.

[00:55:25] Alex Tsakiris: And, uh, well, I always like to, I always like to remind people about Gloria Steinem, right?

Mm-hmm Gloria Steinem, who like we needed a woman’s movement. Women were in a, you know, I think about, I always referenced my mom, you know, my mom didn’t have any options. She was very artistic, intelligent, you know? Right. She didn’t have any options she thought she could do. And it led to some really bad things in her life cuz she couldn’t, you know, express herself.

I think that’s part of the reason why she, so we needed women’s movement. But we didn’t need the fricking CIA to run the women’s movement. Gloria Steinem was CIA. And what a lot of people don’t real. How can you not know that? Oh, no, I dunno that wasn’t just, she wasn’t well, she, you can go look in her own words.

See, so, and here’s the double thing that you’ll get. So somebody out. Gloria Steinem. And then Gloria Steinem has to respond and you can watch the old, black and white thing where she responds. She goes, yes, I did cooperate with the CIA, but I had to do it because this was too important of a movement. And I found them to be really not what you think, you know, they’re really progressive and all the rest of this.

Well, sounds good. But it’s bullshit because the truth is, if you go look at her past, she was CIA before she started the movements, the women’s movement. She was CIA from the beginning. She was CIA when she was working with the student movement. And then she was interjected into this just like they.

Co-opted the UFO, uh, movement. Right? So there’s all these people that, so hold on, we finish the story. We gotta, well, we’re gonna talk about, we’re gonna talk about your story with Peter Londa, but the point you can’t slip off of Gloria Stein. See cuz Gloria Steinem, if you didn’t know that, then you lived through the, you lived through that whole era thinking, wow.

Aren’t things, aren’t things really kind of great. And once you understand, but that’s no, I taken

[00:57:26] Trish MacGregor: to her,

[00:57:28] Alex Tsakiris: you know, the point the point’s the same. It’s like you’re saying, wow, the disinformation misinformation is so bad. Now in a lot of ways I could say is worse back then. Cuz you didn’t even know it now, but what did she, what

[00:57:40] Rob MacGregor: did she do that affected us in a ne ne negative

[00:57:43] Alex Tsakiris: way regarding the CIA fucking Rob?

That’s the wrong fucking question. Isn’t it? She was run by the fucking CIA. Why would we, why would we, why would that would be the question? The CIA. Was interesting in business, the women’s movement. What business does the CIA have in socially engineering? The women’s movement? What business do they have in?

What was

[00:58:06] Trish MacGregor: their purpose? What was their

[00:58:08] Alex Tsakiris: purpose? Yeah. Well, let’s go find out, go ask them. But the point, no, you guys are missing the point. The point is it that’s like saying, you know, what was, uh, what was go’s purpose? Why did go’s, you know, generate all that propagate? What was his purpose? No, the point is that if he was controlling the information flow, then you have to be suspicious.

So if Gloria, and then if Gloria Steinem was, was CIA, and if she was CIA, before she ever entered the women’s movement, that tells the story, you can’t then work backwards. What is our story? And what was she? What is

[00:58:42] Rob MacGregor: story? She

[00:58:42] Alex Tsakiris: was CIA. The story is, she was CIA. I mean,

[00:58:45] Rob MacGregor: so is, so is, so is her Geer, you know, I mean, her Geer works with a lot of intelligence.


[00:58:50] Alex Tsakiris: massage. He’s Maad

[00:58:52] Rob MacGregor: right, right. He, he was doing, you know, uh, his, uh, whatever he does, you know, uh, I don’t know if it was just bending spoons for the CIA and the Maad or whatever, but he was, he was working with them. Uh, and you know, I mean that he was, he was hired by them. Uh, and that’s one of the ways he became, and also a lot of private, uh, people as well in business heard him, he became a multimillionaire and lives in a castle.

And, uh, so he made use of his abilities and the ways that, uh, uh, that he could, but I don’t think he thinks that he did anything really terrible. He was trying to, you know, help, help people out. I think

[00:59:35] Alex Tsakiris: maybe, I don’t know. well, I mean, you ever had

[00:59:38] Trish MacGregor: him on, have you Gillon

[00:59:41] Alex Tsakiris: no, I, I, well, can, you know, like, I don’t quite understand where, where you’re going with that.

I mean, the important thing to me in that story is that yes, uh, I Geer was, uh, Maad. He was CIA and our intelligence agencies were deeply, I mean, try this on for size. Here’s where I take that our intelligence agencies were deeply, deeply interested in operationalizing weapon, weaponizing, extended consciousness, right?

At the same time, they were perpetuating this false narrative among academia that still persists to this day that there is no such thing as extended consciousness. There’s nothing to see here. Folks. Don’t worry about it. None of that is happening. It’s all. I

[01:00:37] Trish MacGregor: think that’s changing.

[01:00:39] Alex Tsakiris: I think that’s changing.

I do. Can I play a clip? Uh, John playbook. But do I have the ability to, um, you yeah,

[01:00:47] John Posey: just sh uh, share your screen when you do it. Okay.

[01:00:50] Rob MacGregor: Yeah. Okay. Okay.

[01:00:52] Alex Tsakiris: Here, let’s see how I do this, this from my,

[01:00:59] John Posey: and, and by the way, when, when you guys get done before we, uh, before we sign off, I’ve got, I’ve got a question that may be like, it’s not related to any of this, but I will be interested in getting a response from Alex May, maybe a postshow clip, but, uh, sorry.

After show, uh, after credit soon. Yep.

[01:01:16] Alex Tsakiris: John ask away. Hey, you gotta, John, you’re gonna have to allow me to share my screen. I think you go over to participants. John’s

[01:01:25] Trish MacGregor: CIA.

[01:01:26] Alex Tsakiris: Be careful

[01:01:27] Rob MacGregor: no, the defense department.

[01:01:29] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. Do D . Oh man. Is that true, John? Really? That is, that is

[01:01:35] John Posey: true, man. Yeah. I’m I’m, I’m a software engineer.

Just like

[01:01:40] Alex Tsakiris: you, so just like me. Okay. Oh then you’re good. Thank you.

[01:01:45] John Posey: um, let’s see. Yeah, I have, I don’t guess this has ever come up before.

[01:01:51] Trish MacGregor: I don’t think it has.

[01:01:53] Alex Tsakiris: That’s no big. I, I, I can just talk you through it. I just, I just published this interview with this terrific guy, Dr. Gregory, who is, uh, you know, Oxford college, London, and I mean, just very recognized scholar.

[01:02:10] John Posey: See, see if it’ll let you, I just, I just,

[01:02:15] Alex Tsakiris: uh,

here it comes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Here’s. Here’s Dr. Gregory. Shahan I’ll just play this a show about finding truth in science. There actually were a lot of accounts overtly saying this particular person died, went to the other world and came back. And that’s how we know what the afterlife was like. And I found, you know, 40, 50, 60 of them from different parts of the world.

So that’s not in dispute the idea. For all these thousands of years in pretty much every cultural region of the, of the planet, people have just been making things up and let’s instead look at the world through our own sort of mechanistic, materialistic, scientific viewpoint, and say that no, it’s all culture.

And it’s all in the brain. To me, that’s a pretty limited way of, of looking at the world. And that to me seems completely illogical and unreasonable and it’s faith rather than science. It’s people sticking to their predetermined, philosophical paradigms, rather than looking at the actual evidence and extrapolating from it.

And to show about spotting scientists who are full of baloney, you don’t have any answer in the Bible. What to do when humans are no longer useful to the economy, you need completely new ideologies, completely new religions, and they are likely to emerge from Silicon valley. Everything that the old religions promised, uh, happiness and justice and even eternal life, but here on earth with the help of technology and not after death with the help of some supernatural being, what are humans for as far as we know for nothing.

I mean, there is, there is no great cosmic drama, some great cosmic plan that we have a role to play in it. Uh, this has been the story of. All religions and ideologies and so forth. But as a scientist, the best I can say this is not true. First clip you heard was from today’s guest, Dr. Gregory Shon, who seemed to be a little bit embarrassed when I said he’s doing some of the most important work in science period, full stop.

So in this introduction, I had to pair his quote with one from a science darling right now, Dr. Yuval Harari, who is name dropped by Barack Obama and bill gates and Zuckerberg, and has sold 30 million books and is on 60 minutes and is all over the place. And of course is one of the key members in the world, economic forum.

Great reset. That’s just the way it is. But as that quote reveals, he’s really not too well informed on science. Is he at least on the science we’ve explored here on. Skeptical. He’s certainly not up to date on why we’re not biological robots in a meaningless universe. Ah, but we should leave all. Okay, so I’ll leave that alone.

But that directly contradicts what you just said, Trish. No, it’s not changing. This guy is the lead guy right now in terms of science. And he’s saying exactly the opposite of what you’re saying. No, there is no remote viewing that never really happened. Yuri never bent those spoons. None of that stuff happened.

You were BI. No,

[01:05:51] Rob MacGregor: that is what’s. That is mainstream science is what you’re saying, you know? Yeah. And

[01:05:56] Alex Tsakiris: it’s not changing. It’s not changing. It’s not there. Isn’t this big momentum or any, it’s not true. No, I’m say

[01:06:03] Trish MacGregor: I’m not saying that science is changing. I’m saying that people are shifting.

[01:06:07] Alex Tsakiris: No. Everybody took the jab.

They took the jab, they took the jab and they believe in global warming. They’re they’re not changing. They don’t understand science. The problem with global warming isn’t that we shouldn’t care about the environment. The problem with global warming is that it isn’t supported by the science sea level.

Right? Sea levels. Haven’t risen in 40 year in forever.

[01:06:31] Trish MacGregor: Practically come to Miami

[01:06:32] Alex Tsakiris: beach and no, it’s just not true. Go look at the data in the Miami beach. They’ve been collecting that data forever. Go look at the data they’ve collected. No, it hasn’t risen. It just hasn’t. That’s the people who didn’t

[01:06:45] Rob MacGregor: take the job are the ones who are

[01:06:47] Alex Tsakiris: dying too.

It’s bullshit. Go. I challenge

[01:06:50] Trish MacGregor: you. I C I’ve been challenged. I challeng you to up, you drive down there, drive down there after a rainstorm and see how it’s flooded. That is

[01:06:59] Alex Tsakiris: not normal. Trish Trish. When you say it’s bullshit. What I interpret that to mean based on what I just said is there are people, scientists, I should say, who have for the longest time been collecting the sea level, recording the sea level, right of Miami beach.

They do it in a, as precise, as way as possible. That’s right. I would challenge you to go look at their data and see if their data confirms your observation, your individual observation of how it looks after a storm. I think you’ll find that’s not true. That’s not true,

[01:07:36] Trish MacGregor: Alex. Listen. Okay.

[01:07:37] Alex Tsakiris: One day. That’s not true.

What’s not true. What what’s not true is that the,

[01:07:44] Rob MacGregor: what you’re saying is not true, because there is flooding in areas like Alton road that have never flooded before. And it’s scientific flooding now. Yeah. And it’s scientifically verified. We hear it all the time. It’s, there’s a lot of evidence. You’re not looking at the right evidence.

Everybody’s not, everybody’s stupid about some things, you know, and

[01:08:04] Alex Tsakiris: they’re smart about other things. Well, here here’s the, well, then, then what we can, what we could probably agree on is that there is an official record of the C level. That they’ve recorded probably for the last, at least 50 years in Miami beach, they record it every day.

The scientists do, if that data shows that the sever level hasn’t risen significantly, then you are wrong. And I am right, because that’s the only measure we have is for the last 50 years, they’ve been measuring C level and they have the data and they publish the data. And that’s the data we would look at right.

To, to answer that question. Isn’t that what we’d look at? Let me, I think, uh, if,

[01:08:47] Trish MacGregor: okay. Let’s say, let’s say

[01:08:49] Alex Tsakiris: ACU weather. Don’t you have to answer don’t you have to don’t you have to answer that question is that whether, whether or not the official sea level that they’ve recorded in Miami beach for the last years, the why is it flooding?

The mind, that’s a different question. You’re slipping off the it’s part of the same

[01:09:05] Trish MacGregor: question. It’s

[01:09:06] Alex Tsakiris: part of the, I dunno why it’s flooding. I, I don’t, I don’t have an answer to that. Alls I can tell you is your assumption that because some road flooded is not the best way to, well, it’s not, it’s not what it’s.

Yeah. It’s not a, it’s a regular

[01:09:19] Trish MacGregor: occurrence. Right. You

[01:09:21] Alex Tsakiris: know, you guys, but do you understand it in Fort Lauderdale, you understand

[01:09:26] Rob MacGregor: in Fort Lauderdale, they’re building a hu they’re planning on building a huge wall, uh, to keep, uh, from, uh, you know, the rising tides from coming into the city, you know, I mean, are, are they just joking?

Is it they’re all bullshit? Is it all bullshit? Just because, you know, uh, there’s certain people that are. Have, uh, a different outlook about it that doesn’t conform to, you know, what, uh, majority of scientists are saying. I mean, uh, there’s, there’s some things the, the mainstream science say that I agree with and that’s in health, for instance, they don’t, I don’t think agree with them about UFOs and about the nature of reality in terms of life after death.

They’re wrong there, but some things. They’re right about. And, uh, you know, and, and health is one thing. And I think the global warming is another, that they’re right. About 99% of people, uh, of scientists agree with that.

[01:10:32] Alex Tsakiris: That’s actually not a true figure at all. And I can show you where that’s and here is kind of one of my go two people.

She is a climatologist at Georgia tech university, like legitimate climate, silent scientist, and her name is Judith Curry. And you know, here’s her special report on sea level rise from a couple years ago, spent 18 months looking so you can’t. Like you guys are not really approaching this scientifically in terms of saying, okay, we could measure things scientifically.

And then when you’re confronted with that, you kind of wanna slide off of that and say, well, well, no, that doesn’t matter. It’s like it, maybe it doesn’t matter in this grander kind of thing that we don’t have to kind of care. We could all have our own story and our own narrative, but if we’re gonna play this consensus reality game, if we’re gonna play the game of science, then we would look at what we would kind of agree that this is the way that we do it.

So if you’re looking at the issue of global warming, you could reduce it down to one question, have sea levels risen. Cause it’s like the that’s ask the polar bears. Rob, do you understand that? That’s not, that’s not scientific. You can go ask. Why is that not scientific? Why understand? Don’t you don’t do you.

If, if you were it’s like, have you studied what’s going on with the polar bears? Yeah, I, I have, but do you realize how’s a, you think that’s a joke, you, you, you know, you’re wrong on the polar bears and you can’t go research down? No, I’m not, but here’s my point. Here’s no, you’re not, but here’s the point is that you, you would, if you were gonna approach things scientifically you would kind of agree on certain criteria that you would measure to come up with your scientific hypothesis.

That’s how science that’s, how science is done. It’s a controlled experiment. You don’t talk about an experiment and then have somebody log in from the sideline. Well, what about the fricking polar bears? No, you go on one experiment at a time. So it’s like. The the, when you’re making it

[01:12:38] Rob MacGregor: sound like our, our I, what our we’re saying is, you know, something on the fringe, you’re on the fringe.

We’re not on the fringe at all. About climate change. You are very out on the

[01:12:50] Alex Tsakiris: fringe, you know it too. Well. You, no, you would, you would have, you would have to back that assertion up by scientifically, right? So like one of the things like you, you repeated this thing that is completely can be about journalistically.

Well, again, I mean, you don’t trust, you don’t trust the mainstream media. Do you? You think it’s all fake news? Am I right? You come on. Where are you? Why are you loing lobbying these things at me? Like when you said the 97 we’re outing, you we’re

[01:13:22] Rob MacGregor: outing you Alex. we want this on

[01:13:25] Alex Tsakiris: skeptical. You, you got it.

You’ll get it. So. Like if you take, uh, Dr. J Curry and, and she also did, uh, a great thing on the manufactured consensus thing, the 97% consensus that came primarily from a paper published by a guy named cook. Cook remember that cuz he cooked the books. what cook did to come up with that 97% figure is he hired a bunch of grad students to read the abstracts from all these papers.

And he asked them to evaluate based on the abstract, whether or not that person was for or against the proposition of, uh, Manmade global warming. That seemed like you’re gonna throw polar bears in here at some point. But what I’m telling you is the methodology that cook used in coming up with his conclusions.

The reason that’s a bad methodology is pretty obvious. One. You can’t have grad students have that. Isn’t really asking the scientist what he thinks. That’s. How about all the, all the other, let, let me just finish the thought. So what, so what Dr. Ju Kirby Curry did, who’s a real climatologist. She relied on the survey of climatologist and she found that the real number is 52% found, agreed with the idea that human factors.

Probably are, cause are contributing to global warming. So the question then becomes, why was the, if anyone can figure it out and I’ve had, you know, people like you who are kind of catastrophic global warming people on the show, and when you show ’em the cook numbers and you show ’em the methodology, you go, well, that’s clearly a shitty methodology.

No one should come to that conclusion based on that methodology, it’s just poor. It’s not doing what you say you’re doing. So then the question is. Why is Obama repeating that? Why is Bush repeating that? Why is that on NASA? Uh, is like, are they just like, oh my gosh, they didn’t know it. You know? No, they’re perpetuating it because that is the goal of what they’re, they’re trying to manufacture this.

So we don’t have any

[01:15:53] Rob MacGregor: Alex. So bottom line is we don’t have anything to worry about. Right? There’s no global warming.

[01:15:57] Alex Tsakiris: Everything’s cool. I didn’t say that. I didn’t say, I said, what are you saying? I think that if you want to understand these questions, you have to go about it in a scientific, methodical way.

You can’t just let your emotions carry you. You can’t just say, oh, I had a dream and I saw the world collapsing. Therefore I’m gonna live my life. As this, as this, the world is gonna collapse. Maybe the world is gonna collapse. But the other data that I pointed out to you is true. Kenneth ring, head near death experiences say that the world was gonna end in 1988.

And it didn’t the other thing I told you about the Christian. Uh, you can go listen to him. Those are his words on the show, right? People can believe a lot of weird things. And, but what really worries me is when I tried to just apply like common sense, like down to earth logic, that haven’t, they been recording the level of the sea level in Miami for 50 years.

Why would we not want to rely on that data? You guys just. Totally blew a gasket. No, we can’t rely on what we’ve been doing for the last 50 years. This is new. We gotta work about the polar bears and the

[01:17:03] Trish MacGregor: roads. No, no, Alex, you you’re that that’s total bullshit. We’re not that dramatic. What we’re saying is that you I’ve lived here since 1963.

Things have changed since 1963 weather wise. Just, you know, I don’t need to look at science to know that.

[01:17:23] Rob MacGregor: I mean, you don’t

always look at science, uh, Alex, I mean, you believe in Pizzagate for Christ’s sake. I mean, that’s crazy.

That’s totally crazy. That’s that’s a great one in the time. In the time that we have left, what do you understand Pizzagate to be Rob?

I don’t wanna

get into

[01:17:37] Alex Tsakiris: it. I just don’t. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You brought it up Hal but what do you understand? Pizza? Well,

[01:17:43] Trish MacGregor: is it something against Hillary Clinton?

[01:17:45] Alex Tsakiris: Right,

[01:17:46] Rob MacGregor: right

[01:17:46] Alex Tsakiris: then that very much hill,

[01:17:48] Rob MacGregor: okay. Hillary Clinton had had this basement under a pizza shop and she was screwing boys or something, uh, P sex, some pedophiles, uh, some sex.

And it was totally ridiculous. And as a result of the right wing, uh, conspiracy theory about this, uh, saying it over and over again, when you say something over and over again, like Trump says things over and over, people start to believe it. And so some guy came with a shotgun or a rifle into that pizza shop, looking for the basement.

A and you don’t really believe this. Do you Alex,

[01:18:23] Alex Tsakiris: see Rob you’re you are so incredibly misinformed. I don’t believe you spew this stuff out like that. Here’s what, here’s what Pizzagate was four days before the election. This is, uh, Hillary versus Trump Wiki. LE’s WikiLeaks released a batch of emails from John Podesta and the emails were all about this kind of, they were salacious particularly about this spirit cooking thing and they were design that woman was an artist.

It was an art. Let, let me, let me finish. Cause you just. There’s so many things that you said that are just completely not true. You can verify, but here’s what you’ll relate

[01:19:02] Rob MacGregor: to. I know it’s not

[01:19:03] Alex Tsakiris: you’re right. Here’s what you’re right. It’s not true. you don’t know what you’re talking about. P but the emails were designed to undermine Hillary’s campaign.

They were an intentional operation in order for, for Trump to get elected. That’s why they released him four days before they were in operation to undermine Hillary, to paint her as a Satanist to paint her obviously friendly. Well, don’t say obviously Rob just said it was a bunch of different shit. This is what Pizzagate was.

And if you look at the history of elections, they always do these things like four days, three days ahead of time, they don’t do ’em two weeks ahead of time. Cuz then they get debunked and all the rest of that. That’s what Pizzagate was. Well, when they released those emails, John Podesta’s emails, there was this, uh, public kind of.

Uh, you know, it was the group sourcing kind of thing back in the day where we’re all used to it. But then everyone on social media, particularly people who were energized in this in a right wing way, started searching through these emails, started looking for connections and they found a connection with a guy who was across the street.

This guy named James Avantas, who ran this pizza place. He ran a pizza place while he turns out he was also one of the 50 most influential people in Washington, DC. And he was rated as such by this magazine. And he had all these connections to Hillary Clinton and all these other people. And there were some very, very shady things in his background and he got out, he had.

They trolled through its Instagram and they found all this kind of soft kid porn stuff that he was commenting on and doing all the rest of this stuff. The point is it was extreme. What did Hillary Clinton

[01:20:48] Rob MacGregor: have to do with all that?

[01:20:49] Alex Tsakiris: Nothing you’re missing the point. Rob, I’m giving you facts. You’re missing the point.

That is you’re missing the point. Rob, the point is it was effective at undermining Hillary’s campaign. It was effective at being one of the contributing factors, but it was a lie.

[01:21:08] Rob MacGregor: It was a lie. Don’t you

[01:21:11] Alex Tsakiris: agree again? Rob, Rob, get a grip, dude. It didn’t happen. The E the emails were real. The no one ever denied.

John Podesta never came out and said, those aren’t my emails. I never sent those emails. I never received those emails. Those emails were in fact true and accurate. The interpretation that people made about those emails, particularly people in, in the Christian. I’m not Christian people in the Christian, right.

The the, their out, the outrage over their emails are a separate thing. But again, you, you are, you’re just wrong, Rob. They weren’t a lie. They were real emails and they really did inspire a lot of people to vote against Hillary Clinton. That whole operation was called pizza gate. Rob that’s what pizza gate was.


[01:22:05] John Posey: on, hang on a second because, because we’re way off track and we’re never, we’re not gonna go. We’re not, we’re not gonna resolve any of

[01:22:11] Rob MacGregor: this, so,

[01:22:15] Alex Tsakiris: oh, we can totally resolve it. That’s just factual. Anyone can go look that up. Well,

[01:22:17] Rob MacGregor: well, no, no,

[01:22:17] John Posey: no. I’m just saying that between the three of. You, we’re not gonna resolve this. I

[01:22:22] Alex Tsakiris: don’t think you can pull the plug that quickly.

[01:22:25] Rob MacGregor: I, I think we can both agree. Uh, all of us agree that there was no basement below the pizza

[01:22:35] Alex Tsakiris: shop, so you are wrong on all the other stuff you said, and now you’re gonna lay something else on because you’re so well informed.

You’re gonna tell us this next part. So tell us the next part that you know, that there,

[01:22:48] Rob MacGregor: there is no basement, first of all, below the pizza. I, I think the pizza shop, I think we can agree with that. So there were no pedophiles and Hillary Clinton had nothing to do with, I think we can all agree with that.

[01:23:01] Alex Tsakiris: I’m just going off of the facts that we have that do you disagree with? Don’t agree with, do you disagree? Anything that I’ve said, do you disagree with anything that I’ve said, do you disagree with, there was, there was.

[01:23:16] Rob MacGregor: The yeah. Podesta had emails. So what, and there was this art show that related to this thing you’re talking about.

Yeah, I agree. But you’re people it’s been exploited BA basically for the election. You’re right. I agree.

[01:23:33] Alex Tsakiris: Okay, John, so the emails, the emails, reference spirit cooking, which was very offensive to a lot of people of a kind of Christian persuasion. Yeah. And then you’d have to understand what spirit cooking is and you’d have to understand what, uh, Crowley, you know, is the guy who kind of directed that.

So right. You’d have to dive deep into the cul and understand that have intelligent conversation, but I want you to, I just want you to own. I just want you to own what you said, Rob, because what you said was just not, you, you started out by saying Alex, you believe in Pizzagate, and I’ve just demonstrated to you that you have no idea what Pizzagate was.

You had it all wrong. That’s what Pizzagate was. Now the fact that a guy did take a gun and go shoot up that, that. That restaurant and he really just shot the safe is what has become the meme that people like you pick up on and say, that’s Pizzagate some right wing nut, conspiracy, theorist shot up this thing.

It’s much more accurate to say what Pizzagate was, was these, these emails that were released in an attempt to undermine Hillary Clinton’s campaign by painting her to be connected to a cult practices. And well, particularly what they, what really stuck was that she was connected to a cult practices, right.

And satanic practices. And that had a, a, a, a dense, a very substantial, I, we don’t know how substantial, but it definitely had an impact on her campaign. Right. So you just got that wrong. And so,

[01:25:07] Rob MacGregor: so when you say you believe in Pizzagate, then you, that would mean that you believe all of this stuff about Hillary Clinton,

[01:25:15] Alex Tsakiris: right?

No Rob. I just told you what Pizzagate is. Go back and look it up. That’s what Pizzagate originally was. You had it wrong. So you had it wrong. I had it right. That’s okay. We can move on okay. Okay.

[01:25:28] Trish MacGregor: Well, you’re not right about Miami beach. I’ll tell you that.

[01:25:32] Alex Tsakiris: we’ll only know if you send me the tide records, which we’ve had for the 50 years, and then you show me that it’s risen, right?

That’d be the way to see whether you’re right or wrong about that. Okay. You

[01:25:42] Trish MacGregor: go down there, drive through the flood and we’ll watch your car drown and then you come back from the after world and tell me that was wrong.

[01:25:51] Alex Tsakiris: okay. What if I see Jesus in the after world though? Well, then

[01:25:56] Trish MacGregor: that’s

[01:25:56] Alex Tsakiris: your problem? you

[01:25:58] Rob MacGregor: get, get mad at him because he really screwed things up on this planet.

[01:26:06] Alex Tsakiris: John. Save us, Jen, save us, Jen. Yeah, I, yeah, I don’t,

[01:26:11] John Posey: I,

[01:26:12] Alex Tsakiris: you tried right. You tried and it didn’t work. So you’re done. I was,

[01:26:17] John Posey: I was, uh, I was hoping that, uh, that it would tail off, but it just never did. So,

[01:26:23] Alex Tsakiris: uh, but, uh, uh, well, dog is here. Well,

[01:26:25] Rob MacGregor: yep. So our nigs, NGO’s been, uh, up here for 10 minutes. Hustling. Let me let, well, let me, let me do,

[01:26:32] John Posey: give, let me, let me do, give one last question.

Maybe, maybe this will, maybe this will give us a couple minutes that we can can solve some of the political talk. Um, so, uh, so Alex, uh, in particular with your background in AI was curious to see what your, uh, take on the Google, uh, developer that got released last week for, uh, Brett, his NDA, uh, claiming that the, uh, uh, that, uh, that the conversation, uh, framework had gone sentiment, uh, is this, is it, is it possible?

This is. Google has finally passed the touring test or does Google have AI?

[01:27:12] Alex Tsakiris: mm-hmm what, okay, so John, I always, what is your take on it?

[01:27:18] John Posey: Uh, it just, uh, well I think, I think the guy’s probably not, I, I think the guy’s probably stressed. a little too stressed, probably saw some things that, uh, that probab probably it passed the touring test.

Probably it did come across as if it was, uh, sentiment, but I find it hard to believe that Google is hanging on to, uh, sentiments. Yeah. Uh, pro programmatic sentiments. Yeah.

[01:27:40] Alex Tsakiris: So, uh, tell, tell folks what the touring test is.

[01:27:43] John Posey: Uh, the touring test is simply a piece of software that convinces the, uh, user or yeah, the user that, that they’re speaking with a.

But they’re speaking with a piece of software.

[01:27:55] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. Right? So there’s this very famous computer scientist, the guy who kind of made the first computer, the guy who broke the enigma code, and you can go watch the movie. He was a British computer scientist. His name is Alan touring. One of the things that’s really cool about Alan touring, I think is that he basically won world war II for us in a way by breaking, cracking the code on enigma by inventing a computer.

And then later he was completely, his life was destroyed because he was gay and they, he was illegal at that time and they forced kind of him to take these drugs and he eventually committed suicide. And it’s a horrible story. But to think that someone who served his country, that noble. It would then be basically killed by his countries.

Very interested. So he said, he said, look, if people so way back, this is world war II. He said, if you wanna know where this stuff is going, you’re gonna eventually ask the question is, could this computer ever be smarter than you are? And that’s when he said, well, really that’s kind of the wrong question.

The right question is, as John said, could it ever trick you into thinking that it’s smarter than you are? Cuz if it can trick you into thinking it’s smarter than you are, then it kind of wins the game. And that raises a bunch of other questions about consciousness, extended consciousness, UFOs. All the rest of this stuff, which is beyond what the computer can do.

So when we narrow the question down to the touring test, like, can you be fooled? Well, anyone who’s ever played chess knows that the computer can whip your butt. It just, without even trying. But the other thing I always point out to folks about AI is that you are already living AI. I mean, if you trade stocks even a little bit, you’re competing with AI.

If you play online poker, you’re competing with AI. If you are those little search engine bots that follow you around are AI. So even the points at which you are already are interfacing with AI are kind of unsettling. So where is it going? It’s it’s very, it’s very hard to imagine that it’s not, it’s not much, much further along than we think, but I think the, the question really is a spiritual question of whether or not, uh, what sentiments means, what, uh, you know, Being human really means becomes, uh, becomes a spiritual question because if you’re thinking about it from a materialistic science perspective, it’s game over.

Yes, of course the computer’s gonna be smarter than you are.

[01:30:46] John Posey: Well, and it it’s a question of sentiments and that, and that’s what, that’s what, that’s what I question is, I mean, really, I mean, I don’t. And I could, yeah, obviously could be totally off base on this, but I don’t think we have the neural networks and stuff that we need to have, you know, to even approach sentiments in a machine.

We’ve just got some really, really good heuristics engines that can make that cuz a couple of years ago, some Russian programmers actually won, you know, one a, uh, UK, uh, touring test. Uh, but they, but they dumbed down their bots so that it spoke as like a three year old, Russian and well in English, in English.

So translated from a three year old Russian to English and actually managed to fool some people. But that’s, that’s kind of, that’s kind of, uh, I think perk did something like that in, uh, star Trek to, uh, you know, uh, you know, the, uh, Kochi Mau or whatever, but yeah.

[01:31:40] Alex Tsakiris: Think well, and I think it changed the rules of the game, basically.

Yeah. I mean, I think it gets back to the quote that I played you by, uh, Harari, um, the new world order guy, who is the science darling. Right? So he doesn’t believe that you are a conscious being John. He believes that you are a biological robot. The consciousness is emerging is an epiphenomena of your brain.

There is nothing more to you than this biology. That’s cranking that out. That’s how they want to frame things from an AI perspective. Cuz then from an AI perspective, you can never, you will lose that battle, but if you are more and the best science suggests that you are more, that you are a spiritual being, then.

AI can never really touch that unless we start hypothesizing that at some point, the Silicon, the soul enters this Silicon and that kind of thing, but that’s a kind of different discussion. Sure. That is a different discussion. Yeah. yeah.

[01:32:42] John Posey: Yeah. I just, I just don’t, I don’t think, I don’t think Google, I don’t think we need to worry about anything escaping, uh, a Google lab and, uh, and, uh, taking over the world.

I, I just, that that’s and I could be wrong, but I just, I don’t know that we’re that advanced. And actually, I think back to the fact that we’re just kind of some biological computers, um, you know, we, we don’t, we don’t do, we don’t, we don’t do a very good job. So, so we’re flawed in, of, in and of ourselves.

And then we’re gonna, we’re gonna, I mean, so we’re really that close to being God that we can create a sentiment machine.

[01:33:20] Alex Tsakiris: Again, I think that plays into what they’re the meme that they’re trying to, the paradigm that they’re trying really, really hard to advance, which is that yeah, that’s, that’s what Harri says that directly.

He says, that’s gonna be, God, God is gonna come from Silicon valley. And that’s why I jumped on Rob about the early Geer thing. That’s the important point about early Geer is. The, the, the scientists that were working with URI Galler, they didn’t have any of these transhumanist notions that there’s nothing more, they were saying.

This guy is obviously connecting with something more. There’s something more out there, but the message for the climate catastrophes like Robin Trish is no give us control of everything, give us the technical control and we’ll figure everything out. And that’s just the, the science doesn’t support that well,

[01:34:11] John Posey: and, and, and to be clear, that’s what bothers me when it kind of bothers me that this, that this whole story may have been a, you know, may have been a plant, you know, that totally, totally to, to terrify people that Google are Google’s on the verge of, uh, uh, sentiment machines

[01:34:29] Alex Tsakiris: that are keep over the world.

Oh, yes. One of,

[01:34:32] Rob MacGregor: one of the things that, uh, you said Alex, about, uh, Eric Giller about the, the scientists, uh, actually blends right in with a lot of what parapsychologists believe that they, they may believe in telepathy, precognition, but many of them, including Deen Ratt Raden I believe, do not believe in an afterlife.

Do not believe that we are spirit being.

[01:34:59] Alex Tsakiris: Well, I, I don’t know where maybe I don’t where you’re getting that from Dean, but I mean, he published his book on magic and spirits and all the rest of that stuff. So, yeah. Yeah. I know

[01:35:10] Rob MacGregor: I’ve read, read his books, but I just, Reem maybe he’s changed, uh, changed his thinking.

But I remember maybe 20 years ago, you know, say from a, a scientific point of view, there is, there is no evidence that, uh, that there is any spirit world that the, that life continues, continues

[01:35:30] Alex Tsakiris: to survive. Well that that’s no, I mean, ed is in his book in the, the magic real magic book. He kind of says, Hey, I didn’t know any of this stuff before, and now I understand this.

Okay. Yeah. He’s changed called spirit, but I, I, I still think he’s, you know, he’s transhumanist. I had him on the show and I was just stunned that he he’s kind of fallen into this transhumanist trap. So that’s where I thought you were going. He’s kind of, of this. Hey, maybe we could all just be a hive mind, and maybe that’s better for everybody and it’ll save the planet.

If you don’t have your individual consciousness, if you just merge it all. And the one big hive mind,

[01:36:08] Rob MacGregor: the man who fell the man who fell

[01:36:09] Alex Tsakiris: to earth yeah. And, and, and

[01:36:11] John Posey: maybe this would be a good place to end it. We’ll just all pink. You swear that in the afterlife, we’ll find each other and record a follow up podcast.

So have a

[01:36:19] Rob MacGregor: thing. Oh, that sounds good. Yeah. Right. As above. So below.

[01:36:23] Alex Tsakiris: As below, so above. Right. All right.

[01:36:27] Rob MacGregor: Thank you guys.

[01:36:28] Alex Tsakiris: Thank you, Alex. You’re always fun. This is the kind, this is the kind of discussions that need to be had. So this is the discussion I wanted to have. I don’t know. What’s the one you wanted to have.

No, this is, but it’s like, that’s good. That’s good. It’s truth. That’s good. It it’s about finding truth. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna send you the Miami. I’m gonna send you the Miami beach sea levels and, and then

[01:36:47] Trish MacGregor: I’m you a ticket to Miami to go drive during hurricane?

[01:36:51] Alex Tsakiris: Those are, those are not, those are not equivalent are not the same’s, but, but don’t

[01:36:55] John Posey: turn down the free to Miami, you

[01:36:59] Rob MacGregor: know, take care.

[01:37:01] Alex Tsakiris: See you guys a take care, Alex. Appreciate it. Appreciate you guys. It was fun. Bye.


Thanks to these guys, Robin Trish McGuire for having me on I’m sure this will be the end.

The end of it. Um, It’s. See that it’s unfortunate. It’s a topic I’m going to continue to cover is like, The truth is too important and the stakes are raised now I’m a, we have to be able to get through this stuff and just really poor logic, just isn’t going to cut it. And I don’t think it should be, you know,

Kind of a suffer fools, gladly kind of thing. I don’t know. What do you think? Let me know. Until next time. Take care. And bye for now.


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