Michael Wallach is a writer, film producer and creator of the Viral Dellusion.

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On this episode of skeptical. Rabies. Damn rabies.

[00:00:08] Clip: A woman shouldn’t have to be hit by a car to learn that she may have rabies, but that is where we are in America. And that does not sit right with me. And that is why I am hosting a fun run race for the cure for rabies to raise awareness of the fact that there is a cure for rabies of disease that has been largely eradicated in the us, but not very many people know.===

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[00:00:36] Michael Wallach: there is simply no proof that there is a virus called rabies that causes the dogs to go nuts. There’s just, there, there is no scientific proof of that. That’s a story.

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So of course that first clip was Steve Carell from the office, but the second one was from.

Today’s guest Michael Wallach, who joined me to talk about his new documentary series? The viral delusion. Hope you enjoyed the show.

[00:01:05] Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to skeptical where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers and their critics. I’m your host, Alex cares. And today we’re joined by documentary filmmaker and creator of the new series.

The viral delusion. Mike Ballek and joining us as well is Mike Stone, who is kind of a interesting guy, knowledgeable guy knew about the film. And Mike invited Mike along to kind of add maybe some input on some of the more technical, scientific parts. But I have a feeling that Mr. Wallock will be able to handle a lot of that himself.

So to both of you, thanks so much for being.

[00:01:50] Michael Wallach: Alex, thanks for having us. , you know, the part of the reason of making of making this documentary series was to be able to have conversations like this. And, uh, so I’m really thrilled to be.

[00:02:01] Alex Tsakiris: Great. Well, I, I just couldn’t agree more and, you know, I, I wanted to maybe play a little clip from the documentary, but I also wanted to read this part because I think this is really the, the energy and the spirit that I’m totally in sync with you guys on.

And I think we have to always step back and realize just how. Powerful and unique. What you’re saying is here no matter where we go in this discussion, cuz we might not always agree on everything, but here’s from your website,

as scary as our times are they’re pregnant with possibility. The possibility for a wider understanding of our health and our politics, the possibility of working together to free ourselves from misguided medical authorities, disastrous health protocols and the corruption in injustice that leads to poor access to healthy food, limited access to fresh, clean water, dwindling opportunities to breathe fresh, and the unstop detoxification of our planet, , the known cause of disease. , well written powerful stuff. It’s maybe even the jumping off point for.

Where you guys are coming from any comment on that?

[00:03:20] Michael Wallach: no. I mean, I, you know, if there I’m really glad you pointed this out, because if there was any takeaway you know, that people could have, uh, on viewing the doc series, I would want it to be that paragraph. That’s exactly. , what, what we’re trying to focus on.

And even though we dive into some, some really technical science, uh, and you know, there’s a learning curve for a lot of people, uh, looking at, at, at the so called science of virology. , at the end of the day, it’s really simple. The takeaway is really simple and that is, , it’s, it’s living in a clean environment.

It’s eating good food. It’s drinking, clean water, it’s breathing, clean air. , that’s where we get health from. And, , when we’re sick, the question we should be asking is what’s changed in that environment. What new toxins are are around us. , what’s been introduced into our food. What’s been introduced into our water, , and there’s been a, a real, , you know, concerted effort to distract us from.

That virology has played a huge role in. And, , so I think that’s a great place to start.

[00:04:27] Alex Tsakiris: Great. Well, let’s also start with, uh, your background and then how you came to this particular project. , sure.

[00:04:34] Michael Wallach: So I mean to go way back I, I used to work for the government.

, I was a, an intelligence analyst for the state depart. And, , I found that, uh, essentially everything I was doing was being uh, misused or used for nefarious purposes. Uh, so I quit. And, uh, I was really interested in storytelling and filmmaking. So I got into uh, I, I got into screenwriting and, and I’ve done, you know, I’ve worked sort of in and out of Hollywood for like 10 years now as a screenwriter.

But I would say from a medical perspective my journey really began, uh, when my wife became ill when she was about 30 years old. And she suddenly developed these really strange growths on her knee. Uh, they were, her knees would just flare up and then go down, flare up and go down. And pretty soon she couldn’t walk without a cane.

So. You know, we lived in New York city at the time and we went to, you know, all the top rheumatologists in New York city. And they all told her the same thing, which is that they didn’t know what was going on. She had, you know, early onset arthritis and the best thing they could do for her was to give her a regular steroid treatment.

And, uh, you know, just told her, buy a good cane, cuz you’re never gonna be able to walk. She was like, you know, she was 30, you know, we were young and, uh, she was beautiful and she’s walking with a cane. I still have this image of her walking down sixth avenue with a cane. And, uh, and then we heard this this, uh, this doctor on the radio who had quit.

Uh, he had, uh, been the chief pathologist at a major hospital in New York city. And he had quit because, uh, he was so fed up with the, uh, The, the, the standard of care, uh, the, the regular per, you know, prescribed treatments. And he had started his own little clinic and we went down there and just like, let’s give this guy a shot, you know?

And, uh, and we walked in and he said are you an athlete? And my wife was sort of laughed. She’s not an athlete. And he said, okay, what does your bathroom look like? And, uh, And my wife says that that’s, that’s so weird. I hate my bathroom. He said, yeah. Has the paint peeling on the walls? She said, yeah. She said, okay, you, you probably have a mold allergy.

You should get out of that apartment. And you’ll be, you know, you’ll be fine. We’ll run some tests to see, but you’re, you know, that’s probably what’s going on and you’ll be fine. And we left the apartment and two weeks, you know, we were out of that apartment and it never bothered her again. And that was 16 years.

So for, you know, over a year, my wife couldn’t walk. She went to the, all the standard medical doctors, you know, NYU, Columbia, all these sort of supposedly topnotch guys. And they had no way of understanding what was going on. Uh, whereas here was this doctor who had a wider perspective because he was looking at what’s the environment that you’re living in.

What, what are the inputs from that environment? And I, I still remember he sort of held our hands and he said, listen, he was kind of a funny guy. He said, listen you know, all of the children that have died in Iraq, uh, all of the, all, all of the horrors that have happened there, he said it pales in comparison to the medical scam just of lip.

Just to this one cholesterol drug that he was talking about. And he said, be very wary of anything you read in the new Enron journal of medicine, because it’s, it’s all fraud. And so I was like, wow, you know, like, this is a, this is fascinating. I had no idea. I had no clue, but I saw the impact of this kind of thinking, you know, right away.

And that’s

[00:08:18] Alex Tsakiris: cool, but you’re dating yourself a little bit with the N round reference. I totally get it. Ah, most people that’s like ancient history. , so Mike, , you have this kind of expanded awareness about health, about health scams. On this kind of massive scale, when does the, the, what we really wanna drill into is the no virus thing.

So the, yeah. Pandemic happens and as it gains steam, there’s this offshoot of the terrain versus germ theory thing, which has been brewing for a while, which has some real legs to it. When you dig into it, you know, we don’t have to all be. Desant our hands constantly. And we kinda learned that 10 years ago, that was the big thing.

You know, you don’t have to do that. And that kind of brought forward this germ theory versus terrain theory and a new understanding of that. When did this no virus thing pop up for you as it relates to COVID?

[00:09:20] Michael Wallach: So I had you know, that story that led me to, uh, you know, doing all sorts of medical research for years and years and years.

And so, but even before COVID happened, I was aware that vaccination, uh, had not, was not the, the reason why, uh, the, the great diseases had been eradicated in the early 20th century. I already knew that piece. So I knew that vaccination is clearly and obviously not. What solved the smallpox problem. Okay.

I knew that vaccination was not what had solved the polio problem and the same thing for, you know, many other diseases like pertussis and scurvy and, and, and, and there’s a whole host of, of measles. There’s a whole host of disease. That you, you sort of, you’re hearing all the time. Oh yes. Well, you know, thankfully thank thankfully vaccination came along and, you know, we don’t have to worry about you know, smallpox anymore, but that’s, if you look at the historical record, that’s just not the case.

And and I, I already knew that piece. What, I didn’t know, what I had never even been exposed to was the idea that these diseases Weren’t even viral diseases that, that the, the entire concept of a virus was, uh, essentially not it’s, it’s not supported by real science. It’s supported by pseudoscience, by what looks like science to a casual observer.

But when you look at it closely, doesn’t meet the criteria of natural. and, uh, essentially it’s a story. It’s a fiction that we’re told. So I first was exposed to that idea, uh, by Andrew Kaufman’s video, uh, the rooster, something about the rooster and the something. And and, and all of a sudden, sort of half the story began to click.

And, oh my God, of course, if they’re not, if these diseases Aren. Driven by a virus. Well then of course, vaccination wouldn’t have had anything to do with them. And of course the other explanations that I was aware of made sense. Right. And and then it began this whole journey of like, well, if that’s true, what about eights?

You know, what about some of these other, you know, what about herpes? What about some of these other, you know, diseases that we so commonly and so instinctively. Are virally caused. And so I had to go through a whole journey where I’m, I’m sort of very stubborn. Like I, I have to, I have to sort of unwrap everything and try to get to the bottom of it.

And what I found time and time again, was that there was an entire history that we’re just not taught.

[00:12:11] Alex Tsakiris: Okay. So here’s where I think it gets interesting for you and I, and it’s the part I, I, I wanna focus on because I do want people to check out again, the viral delusion, , film and, , The website, but there’s a certain head space that we’re getting into.

That is kind of interesting when we start parsing it out. Cause like I said, a lot of stuff you’re saying right there. I agree with, I mean, one of the HIV aids thing, we did a show on this a couple years ago, you know, the epidemiological data doesn’t really support that in terms of support, it supports the idea that we don’t fully understand the connection between.

HIV and aids, if there is such a connection and it’s like the own, their own data that we collected from, People in the military who are joining the military and we’re getting astronomical amounts of testing positive for HIV, and they’re not aids. And the Nepo graphics of those are really weird, African American women, 20 times more likely, you know, this doesn’t fit with what we’re supposed to know about this viral cause disease of aids.

So there’s a lot of anomalies. There’s a lot of strange kind of things to be explained. But I wanna kind of penetrate through a lot of the noise and the clutter in order to get to some of the core issues. So I sent you this email about rabies because I think rabies in a lot of ways kind of cuts through it.

Cuz now we’re talking about something that isn’t. Isn’t it just in humans, it’s in animals. I could have sent you, uh, something about, uh, viruses in tobacco plants too. Right? Cause farmers have all this problem with, so again, this kind of no virus thing starts looking a little bit weird when we say, wait a minute, you mean there’s, there’s no such thing as rabbit dogs.

So I sent you the email. Here’s what you wrote me. People will get it. Hi Alex. Yes, there is no proof of any virally caused disease, , including rabies. Your story is a classic example of the tragic consequences of a misbelief in virally caused disease. It happens sadly all the time and the tragedy of it becomes quite clear.

Once you begin to understand what’s going on. Of course, I don’t know all the details, but most likely your dog picked up worms that went undiagnosed by the vet.

And then you say studies show that 30, 90% of cases go unrecognized by vets. And which of course can cause strange behavior and dog. And then you say who then the vet believe in the contagious rabies myth went on to conservatively, suggests your dog be needlessly put down. It’s really sad. So I’m like, Mike , this is kind of a, , maybe you wanna just kind of go over that a little bit.

I mean, how do you square that with the history of rabies, which has been around, you know, for like 2000 years, , middle ages, you know, we have all these pictures, I’m pulling up on the screen of, you know, if you see a dog and it’s foaming at the mouth and it’s really angry, don’t go near that dog.

It’ll bite you and you’ll die. I mean, You’re saying that there’s no such thing as rabies. I, I just think a lot of people are gonna kind of put a full pump, the brakes now and say, I was with you on a lot of the things you’re saying germ theory versus terrain theory. But now you’re saying there’s no virally caused diseases and even things that we commonly understand, like rabies that isn’t, that isn’t real.

I, I think a lot of people are gonna have a hard time with that.

[00:15:46] Michael Wallach: So, uh, this is great. I love this stuff. Okay. So we have to separate out the symptom, the symptoms from the story about what caused those symptoms. Okay. So do we have the, the, have we seen, you know, ravenous dogs or, you know, fo salivating dogs or angry dogs?

Yeah. Obviously, obviously we’ve seen that, right? We can call that rabies. That’s fine. We can say, you know, there’s been, you know, these kinds of dogs or dogs in this kind of situation for, for thousands of years. I’m sure there have, I would never dispute that. What, what, what people then what pastor. In, uh, you know, the mid 18 hundreds then came along and said, was that he, uh, could invent a vaccine to cure people who had been bitten by these dogs.

Okay. Pastor was, uh, uh, a figure that, you know, we can talk about. And he, uh, a very fraudulent figure. I mean, uh, You know, Mike Stone, maybe, maybe can jump in as well in talking about, uh, you know, the depth of the fraud of, of pastor, but he essentially just so people know, he, uh, he’s a seminal figure in, in, you know, the history of medicine.

And what people don’t know is that he kept two sets of notebooks. He kept a public set of notebooks and a private set of notebooks, the private set of notebooks. He left to his family, uh, in his will. And, and it said, do not ever show this to anyone outside of the family, but, uh, one of his descendants decided that that was nuts and gave those notebooks over to a, uh, professor of history at, uh, at Princeton who then wrote, uh, a, a sort of tell-all book about pastor and, and exposed many of these notes.

So like something that we know about the history of rabies and vaccination. Is that, uh, while he had claimed, uh, to have, uh, proven his that his vaccination, uh, serum worked on, uh, over 300 dogs, uh, privately, uh, that he had had acknowledged to himself that he had no idea if that was true. Uh, but he had sort of ginned up a fear about rabies, uh, in France at the time.

Uh, and then the big sales pitch came when a kid was bitten. A nine year old kid was bitten by a dog. Nobody even alleged that this dog was had rabies, but, uh, he, uh, there was a fear that it might have. And so he gave his, uh, inoculations to this kid and the kid did not go crazy. Right. The kid did not get Rab.

But what was not told was that there were two other people that were bitten by that dog, including his dad, uh, who were not given the inoculations, who also were perfectly fine afterwards. And this is the, this is kind of a classic example of the level of pseudoscience that we’re constantly bombarded with, where we’re only told half the story and it looks like a great success.

So the, the question is not. Are there crazy. Do, are there dogs that go nuts? The question is what is the actual cause of that? And the, the, there is simply no proof that there is a virus called rabies that causes the dogs to go nuts. There’s just, there, there is no scientific proof of

that. That’s a story.

So I pulled up on the screen here, a graph that shows the number of rabies cases both in humans and in domestic animals. And what it shows is that like virtually now, today, there are, uh, no cases of rabies in domestic. Animals and dogs, you know, that just doesn’t exist. Uh, it used to be much more common.

And again, so we’re talking about like the, the, the film, the viral delusion is talking about, as we said at the beginning, this enormously F. Fricking crazy health scam that we’ve lived through the last couple years. So one of the things I’m trying to do with the rabies example is pull us out of that timeframe because again, rabies hundreds of years, 1947 is the time when we started mass vaccinating dogs.

And then as this graph shows, there’s just this huge drop off in the number of cases of rabies from 1947. So then we have 48, 49, 60, 63, you know, this is like decades and decades. Whereas today we don’t have it. And then if you look at other countries, Like Mexico, this graph doesn’t , look like this because they have a lot more wild dogs, dogs running in the streets, a lot more dogs, contracting rabies, and a lot more people getting rabies when they are bitten by dogs.

If you go over in India, it’s the same. Only there they have this superstitious belief that if you , get bit by a dog, it’s some kind of a spirit that the dog possesses you kind of thing. So again, in the same way that we’ve looked at some of the data from COVID and it’s very revealing. When you look at the differences in country, by country, we can apply the same thing here with rabies.

It doesn’t at all conform to what you’re saying, what it says is it perfectly lines up with the conclusion that this is a viral disease that can kill animals. And if people are infected, it kills people. And the other thing is. The treatment for rabies. Now, fortunately, if you’re bit by a skunk walking through the woods and you think that skunk may have had rabies, you can go in and there, they will give you the treatment and you will never get rabies.

There’s virtually a hundred percent success rate with that treatment. And if you go in other parts of the world, that’s not the case, there’s still people dying of rabies. And the reason I’m focusing so much on rabies is again, I think it takes us. To a different place, especially since it’s not even our species, it’s these other animals that we’re familiar with, but I don’t know.

[00:22:02] Alex Tsakiris: Maybe this is not gonna get through and penetrate the way that I want it to, but those are the numbers I’m showing the graph right now. That’s great. If anyone wants to look at it,

[00:22:09] Michael Wallach: that’s great. You know, look, I we didn’t cover rabies in the documentary, so You know, I can’t pull, uh, stats and figures out you know, as quickly as I could, or, you know, as easily as I could for, for other diseases.

But I’ll tell you what the standard practice is on this kind of thing. Which is certainly the case for polio. And we can talk about that. What, what we see time and again, from the medical statistical establishment is that It’s, uh, it’s sort of, there’s sort of a circular logic that’s used where they’ll ask was in, you know, and I’d have to look into this to verify if this is true, but we’ve seen as time and again, in other situations they’ll ask was the dog vaccinated for rabies?

And if the answer is yes, then they will cross out rabies as a potential sickness for the dog. Okay. So what you see is a, is, is a, is a change in definition, but it doesn’t necessarily correlate with reality. So for instance, in, in India, right. And we, you know, this is a whole story on polio that we could, that we could and should go into, which is that you know, polio really tracks with With, with the use of organ phosphates, uh, which are industrial chemicals and, uh, insecticides that are known to cause paralysis.

Right? So if you, if you look at, you know, what is polio, polio is paralysis, right? So um, if you look at India, Where there’s there, there have been mass vaccination campaigns. Okay. For polio, you’ve seen that the polio, the rate of polio has gone, you know, down it’s, it’s, it’s fallen off a cliff with these vaccination campaigns, but at the same time, we’ve seen a rise in something that’s called acute flacid paralysis, which has the exact same symptoms as polio.

But, you know, it has an, it has a different. So have, has paralysis gone down? No, what’s categorized as polio has gone down, but have people gotten better? No, not at all. So I, you know, I’d have to look at that chart and I’d have to look at the history of the chart and understand where that came from, what the statistics, you know, what terminology was used, but I could read you you know, I could read you some other things about rabies, if you want to hear

well, but still, I mean, Come on.

We all know rabies. Isn’t a problem right now, right? The R rabbit dogs, we never see, you’ll never see a rabbit dog because all dogs are forced. They have forced vaccination for dogs. We just got a new dog, big, old puppy they’re vaccinated. Right. And again, this is just simple stuff, but if you go down to Mexico, there’s a lot of dogs who are not on the street.

They’re not vaccinated, and there’s a lot more cases of rabies. So the problem here that we get into is that. Like there’s a lot of good stuff in the viral delusion, but the idea that viruses never cause disease can never cause disease is a jump, the shark moment. It just isn’t supported by any science.

The graphic that I brought up for you, hold on. The graphic that I showed to you was fr this starts in 1930. Right. So we’ve been, but we’ve been tracking rabies for hundreds of years, but now you would have to, like, if you were to sell me on the idea that they did this pandemic thing over the last two years, I’d be like, hell yeah, I see all the evidence.

I see how they planned it, how they executed it, how they PR. Perpetuated phony science. And they did all these crazy things with masks and quarantining, and then the VAX and all that stuff. I’m with you. But if you really wanna sell me on the idea that like, just in this graph, since 1938, they’ve been doing, they’ve been playing with the numbers for rabies and aunt for in dogs.

Why in the world, would they do that? And then secondly, my own observation is there’s no problem with rabies and dogs. No one worries about that. And they do in these other countries. So I can just, I’m staying on that one issue because otherwise I’m going to agree with 90%. Of this stuff you guys are saying, but underneath that is this kind of fundamental, again, jump the shark flat earth kind of thing that you have to, of course, viruses, you can get a viral overload and it can cause disease.

And at the same time, a lot of the things that you’re saying about germ. Theory terrain theory can be true as well. Both can coexist. I don’t know why it has to be so absolute. And I would add just this last little bit, and then I’m gonna turn over the mic again, but what you’re saying, it’s not like Mike Wallock is, is cooking this stuff up on his own.

Andrew Kaufman, who, you know, is all over the place in terms of being interviewed. Tom Cowan, who’s been on this show is a very. Abrupt interview. They would agree with you on the whole, no viral diseases ever, any kind. It’s all never happens. Kind of thing. So jump the shark. Flat earth science. I mean, am I being too too hard?

Is there a middle ground here? Does it have to be all or nothing? I,

I, I love it. Uh, you know, I remember when I first came out against masks and a friend of mine in, in, in my town said, okay, but at the end of the day, don’t you really, don’t you think like what’s really going on is you’re just an asshole.

You know, I was like, no, that’s not, what’s really going on. So, and I don’t, uh, uh, we’re talking about a really fundamental perspective that I think it’s really important for people to understand. So let me just read you a little quote here. Uh, just pulled this up this morning. Dr. Charles Dulles lecture on the history of medicine at the university of Pennsylvania who was appointed by the medical societies of the state to investigate rabies stated that he’s inclined to the view that there is no such specific malady because after 16 years of investigation, he had failed to find a single case on record that can be conclusively proved to have resulted from the bite of a dog or any other cause.

Uh, I will, I could do this all day. Uh, Dr. Wilco of New York investigated a rabies scare because of 11 alleged deaths from rabid dog bites upon complete investigation. It was found that not one of those deaths was due to rabies, uh, with the publication of his report, to the city council, the rabies scare ended forth with, uh, Dr.

Elmer Lee ended another rabies scare on Staten island. On autopsy. The rabbit dog was found to have died of thread worms and not rabies. The worms were lodged in the heart of the animal. A similar finding of worms ended the Klondike rabies panic. Uh, we could sort of go through this, uh, us, uh, like dozens and dozens of these Dr.

Matthew Woods at other contemporary of pastor. Uh, Then a leading member of the Philadelphia medical society wrote much on the subject of rabies. Uh, he stated at the Philadelphia dog pound, where on average, more than 6,000 Varant dogs are taken annually and where the catchers and keepers are frequently bitten while handling them, not one case of rabies has ever occurred during its entire history of 25 years.

In which time, more than 150,000 dogs have been handle. The records of the London hospital a few years ago showed 2000, uh, 668 persons bitten by angry dogs. None of them developed rabies, uh, St. George’s hospital, London records, 4,000 patients bitten by dogs, supposed to have been mad and no cases of rabies.

Uh, it just, you can sort of go on and on and on through the history. I think there’s. Idea out there, uh, that, that, you know, I think essentially was a, a scare that was put out by pastor, uh, in the 1850s. I believe that, you know, if an a, a, an angry dog bit, you, you would go mad and you better get this vaccine.

This is a, this, this is a necessary treatment, but there’s just. The science isn’t there to support it. The history doesn’t support it. You know, you could look at other countries at the time that had no cases of rabies. There were, there were, you know, over and over and over again, rabies was not an issue.

It was not a, a people weren’t concerned about this. Uh, it was in the countries where pastor institutes developed that we saw the development of the fear of rabies, uh, Let’s see I’m and I’m just, you know, pulling this out of, you know, recent research here,

[00:31:24] Alex Tsakiris: recent research, give us the dates on some of those things that you’re saying?

[00:31:27] Michael Wallach: I believe this is from a book called the poison needle by Eleanor McBean, which is a real classic. So that’s from like the 19, uh, I think that book was written in like the 19 twentie.

[00:31:42] Alex Tsakiris: Right. So it’s really not. I mean, do you think that’s still the case, do you think that’s kind of up to date in terms of modern day science and if

[00:31:51] Michael Wallach: you brought hundred percent, hundred percent. Yeah. I, I think what I’m trying to do is, you know, you were said you were talking about. Pre 19, uh, forties fear of rabies. And so you were saying, oh, there was this huge fear of rabies before the 1940s, before the vaccination came along. Right. But actually that’s, that’s not the case.

There was a, there was a fear, but there wasn’t a reality to that.

 

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[00:32:10] Michael Wallach: So I, I I, uh, invited Mike to join us on the show today because he’s done some really, really wonderful research into the history of the science, uh, on these questions and, uh, has a, a blog called, uh, virology, but it’s ver VIR.

I can never pronounce it. Right. But it’s got the word lie in there. How do you say it, Mike?

[00:32:32] Mike Stone: Uh, I just say virology, but you can say virally G is what I’ve heard. A lot of people say

[00:32:38] Michael Wallach: anyway, he’s done really, really tremendous work going back through the history of the actual, uh, scientific papers. And Mike, I don’t know if you had any thoughts on you know, on, on rabies history of rabies?

Yeah, I think

[00:32:50] Mike Stone: the, the first thing just going back to past year that I find interesting is that. Never had a, you know, he never purified or isolated anything when he was developing his vaccines. So it goes back to the fact that there was no virus. There was nothing there that he could physically see, observe, manipulate.

He couldn’t adhere to this scientific method when. Uh, creating his vaccinations. So I know you already spoke Michael about some of the fraud with pasture, but he didn’t even know if his vaccines were safe or if what the efficacy of them were, which, uh, he had actually hidden, which a lot of his detractors at the time were very much against his, uh, His way of kind of manipulating the data and hiding it from everyone to be able to see and from being able to you know, reproduce his work.

Uh, so there’s an issue with just from the outset with rabies that they actually never had a virus to begin with. They just had, you know, the effect and they’re, they’re assuming the cause with the vaccines. It was interesting with that historian that you spoke of who actually looked at past year’s notes.

He admitted that most cases when people were bitten by, you know, animals that were said to be clearly rabid, they needed no treatment whatsoever. They were fine without treatment. And in many cases, The, the vaccine itself was making people sick. There’s actually studies that were done in the fifties. I believe if I remember correctly, I wrote about it where they went through a lot of, uh, different, there was two different kind.

I can’t remember the names of them, but there was like neurological symptoms and non neurological symptoms created just from the vaccines that were admitted to be a cause from. And not from rabies. So it’s a, it’s a, it was a case where the vaccine was actually causing a disease that it was supposed to prevent.

And that the people that were actually bitten by the animals, the rabbit animals were not expressing any symptoms whatsoever. They, those who did not receive treatment were just fine. The ones who received the treatment were actually developing the symptoms that were associated with rabies and actually succumbing to it.

So

[00:35:07] Michael Wallach: that, that Mike, that remind that reminds me, uh, that that’s right. That, that , that pastor put a statistical uh, sort of rule in place for his vaccines, which was that if you died on the day you were vaccinated, uh, or, uh, within, I think it was 20 something like 20 or 25 days of being vaccinated.

Then you would not count as a, as a, as having died from the vaccine. You would, you, you would be, it would be written down that you had died from rabies, right. Even though you were fine until you were vaccinated. Right. Cuz we didn’t have cases of people going, you know, nuts or whatever, but they, they would come in fearful, become vaccinated.

They would die. And then they would, it would be after being vaccinated. And then it would be written down that they had died from rabies, not from the vaccine and, and, and pastor admits that in his notes. And this is covered by, uh, a professor, uh, uh, of, uh, scientific history at Princeton. So, you know, you see the level of statistical fraud.

That, that, that goes on. We saw the exact same thing with, uh, with the COVID vaccinations, right. Exact same fraud, which is that if you know, if, if you, uh, for a while, I think I, they may have given it up at this point, but you know, for a while, if you were injected with the vaccine and you, uh, tested positive, uh, using the PCR method for COVID.

If it was within three weeks of the vaccine, that it, it must be that it wasn’t the vaccine. You just didn’t get it in time. Right. That was the, that was the game. Uh,

[00:36:54] Alex Tsakiris: right. So I, I think, I, I think I saw that same thing and I think it’s pretty a reliable representation of what happened. And the other thing I think that you’re alluding to is the kind of, cause of death thing, which has been widely reported, but people can go check it out.

Verified over and over again with the COVID thing is like, if you get admitted to the hospital with. I don’t know, a broken leg, you know, or just came in with a car accident. They’re gonna do a PCR test on you. If you come up as positive and then you die even vets from complications, from car accident or nerve gunshot wound or whatever, we’re gonna chalk it up.

So there’s all these. All these verifiable scammy, scammy, healthcare fraud, global bla basis, kind of things that we can point to. I don’t want to, uh, spend all our time on the rabies thing, but I do feel the need to wrestle it to the ground because I just gotta think, I just gotta say, I just am not at all.

at all convinced by, uh, what you guys are letting out there, because here’s how I would sum it up. If this graph that I’m showing you is accurate, then no, everything you’re saying is false, right? Because what this graph shows people can’t see it. If they’re just listening, is that there’s eight, 10,000 cases of rabies a year in, uh, in the 1940s.

And today there’s zero cases of rabies among humans and domestic animals in the United States. And this graph is different in Mexico and it’s different in India. So I wonder if we could at least agree that this graph, if it is accurate, like I’m just throwing it at you. So you can’t, we would have to research it and stuff.

But if these numbers are accurate, would severely undermine. Your position in terms of that, there is no, there is no rabies, cuz you’re saying there is no rabies, rabies never kills dogs. And if you get by a, get bit by a rabbit animal, a skunk or a Fox or whatever, there’s no problem, you know, don’t go to the doctor.

Don’t worry about getting that rabies shot. You’ll be

[00:39:03] Michael Wallach: fine. No, no, no. Alex you’re slightly misinterpreting. Uh, what I’m saying and I think what, what Mike is saying, uh, again, nobody’s saying that there Aren. Dogs with the symptoms that we call rabies, you can even call them dogs with rabies. Okay. What, uh, what Mike and I are arguing and what the scientists are arguing in the film is that is the story behind why those dogs are sick.

There’s a story that that was invented about about a hundred years ago. Okay. That says there’s a little. Viral particle little, a tiny little particle little at first it was conceived as a protein. Then it was conceived as a little piece of DNA.

[00:39:50] Alex Tsakiris: Hold on. Lemme just let me just interject. So we don’t get too far off track.

, these numbers would support that hypothesis because what they followed here, this procedure is exactly following that path. The science here was to go and isolate that little thing and then treat it the way that. Have said that they treated it, and this is the result that they got. They, they’re not treating it a different way.

There isn’t this global kind of scam over the last 80 years in terms of how to treat rabies. Oh,

[00:40:24] Michael Wallach: sure. Sure. There is. Sure. There’s definitely a, but

[00:40:28] Alex Tsakiris: it’s incredibly effect. It’s incredibly effective. I’m I don’t understand what you’re arguing if it is this effective. You’re you’re you seem to be arguing that yeah, it’s been super effective, but it’s not effective because of anything that they’ve said.

I mean, that doesn’t square with just common sense. People would go no. Well, I would tend to believe. It’s the science that they’ve applied to it in this case. That doesn’t mean that in every case and all the ways that we’re talking about, but it seems to be such an all or nothing thing with you guys regarding viruses.

[00:40:58] Michael Wallach: It’s just beca it’s just because the, there there’s no, the, the, you can repeat the point again and again that the, the science isn’t there, but I’ll, I’ll, I’ll put it this way. Let me take a look at this chart the next time we talk. Hopefully I will have some commentary on. And what were the methods used to come up with this chart?

And, and then we can talk, you know, in more detail, cause I haven’t seen this chart before. I’m happy to investigate it and see if I can, you know, go back and look at it and, and, and see how they you know, where the data, uh, came from on that at you know,

[00:41:31] Alex Tsakiris: we fair enough. Fair enough. You guys have been incredibly open and engaging.

I’m sorry, Mike, go ahead.

[00:41:36] Mike Stone: Yeah, I was just gonna say, it’s hard to compare too. Like if you’re talking about America, where dogs are domesticated in houses and you know, living in cleaner environments and, and conditions like that, of course, they’re not gonna get as sick as dogs that are out in the wild sometimes, you know you gotta look at the different living conditions, whether they’re exposed different environmental toxins, things along those lines in order to, uh, look at the data and, and.

See if there’s a potential there. Cause the thing that we’re getting at is there’s no proof that there is this virus, rabies virus particle, they never purified and isolated the particle that was called rabies and have shown that by taking that purified, isolated particle, they can cause rabies in another animal.

There’s also no proof that if you get bit by a dog or an animal, that’s rabid that you are gonna get that same disease. That’s just never been the case.

[00:42:27] Alex Tsakiris: Great. Well, I, I tell you what, again, hats off to you guys for totally fully engaging with the topic. I wanna return to the film and the film series, because people need to know what’s out there.

There’s a ton of good information in there, and I want people to do it. So I wanna play a clip from that. I also wanna stress that your position here, the position that you guys are taking are not like. It’s not you. If I had Andrew Kaufman and Tom Cowan, they would say the exact same thing that you just said.

I don’t think you’re misrepresenting that point at all. So I’ll tell you what, let me play for folks. A clip from the viral delusion, the pseudoscience of SARS, co V two, and the madness of modern virology. And then we’ll talk some more about it.

[00:43:17] Michael Wallach: Sounds great.

[00:43:18] Clip: And that’s when I just started saying, okay, let’s figure out what’s going on. I’m gonna start at the very beginning. I’m gonna look at the papers that discover the virus and, you know, take it wherever it leads me. And I never expected to that those papers didn’t actually show any virus and the studies and, and then the most important studies

claim.

Ask of two, uh, they haven’t purified the particles and without purification and finally isolation, you, you cannot say

that,

You have, and the first thing I did, I actually went to

look for, uh, uh, Study

from the CDC, uh, CCC, the Chinese center for disease control, uh, published under the name zoo and others, which was the first, uh, supposed isolation of the, of the Sarco two.

And of course immediately found, uh, incredible discrepancies and, and, and methodology that, uh, you know, didn’t isolate anything. There is no

virus. Then the CDC admitted last December.

They don’t

have any, any SAR to, to compare with a PCR test to see that’s

what it’s actually detecting. Absolutely can tell you, after a year of looking, there

has not

been one case.

Literature where a virologist or a scientist took somebody with sick. Did the normal isolation

procedures and said, here is

this

virus. The whole thing

is, uh, is been a scam

from the beginning

because this isn’t about the science COVID 19 SARS. COVID two is nothing to do with science. Otherwise it would’ve all been debunked months ago.

[00:45:05] Alex Tsakiris: Okay, we’ll stop it right there. First of all, let’s talk about the film series in general. Very, very beautifully done. Professionally done. Tell us a little bit about the process. Lot of interviews here must have taken a long time to compile all these.

Tell us about the filmmaking process. A little. uh, sure.

[00:45:27] Michael Wallach: So I had been I had been screenwriting, uh, in working you know, with a, with a foot in Hollywood for the, for the past 10 years. And I, I, when I realized the depth of this story I, I immediately thought this, you know, there should be a movie about this.

Somebody needs to tell this story and, and. It was pretty obvious that, you know, I wasn’t gonna be able to go to Netflix or, uh, Amazon, uh, you know, to get it made. Uh, and I had never made a documentary before. Uh, so I’m a little shy, uh, in terms of, you know, picking up the phone and calling people to say, Hey, do you wanna be in my documentary?

Cuz honestly I had no idea if, if was even gonna work, you know, if it was, if we were gonna be able to tell the story well but what I found was that the, the, the doctors and the scientists that I called were. You know, for the most part, absolutely thrilled to be able to, to, to have a platform to speak out.

I did speak to a couple of scientists who were just so really wonderful people who had been so beaten down that they just felt it was hopeless to even bother speaking out. I don’t wanna name names, but some really, really topnotch people. Who just felt like they, they, they didn’t even wanna engage with society anymore.

Because that, that they had been so burnt, uh, when they had tried to speak out about the aids situation. Really, I mean like a whole generation of absolutely brilliant scientists who were destroy. By Fauci and and his machine, uh, that, you know, that said HIV is the cause of aids. And if you don’t agree, shut, shut up and, and we will destroy you.

And and, and so there were numerous people from that world who were just too depressed to talk to me, but there were still a number of people from that world who survived it emotionally. And, uh, and really, it was like, It was a little bit of a minefield really in terms of the, all of the different characters that had lived through that war, that scientific war.

But, but enough, uh, you know, there was a, there, there was still enough hope there among a, you know, a certain crowd and. , you know, that was like, to me, that was one of the most exciting things because whereas I knew, you know, I had known the polio story and the small pot story for a long time. The, the, the secret history of aids was something I had, you know, very little knowledge about.

And so, you know, I didn’t know that, you know, really a huge portion of the world’s greatest scientists were trying to speak up and trying to say. This is not true. This, this is not, it’s certainly not supported by, uh, the scientific evidence to claim that HIV is the cause of aids. And it’s it. It’s contradicted by the evidence.

So that to, to discover that there were all these Nobel prize winners and brilliant people, uh, brilliant scientists, mathematicians, biochemists, physicists, electron mic, cross chemists, uh, physicians, gynecologist, this huge array of, of of genius that, that had tried to fight the system and just, you know, Fauci had basically played media whackamole with them.

Every time they popped up. And that, that was just like so inspiring. But you know, like some of the people that I interviewed just like burst into tears after our interviews, because they hadn’t had a chance to talk about it for 20 years. There were you know, it’s, it’s, it, it, it was a really moving experience to discover that I was not the first person to, uh, tell this story and, you know, everybody that I spoke to.

Would have other people that they could turn to you know, who also had fought this fight? Like Jim west, who’s a fantastic researcher who wrote a, a very simple, uh, clearly elucidated book on polio called, uh, polio virology versus toxicity. And you know, what he had discovered. Was that there had been all these doctors and scientists back in the fifties who had been trying to speak out and in the forties that had been trying to speak out.

And they too had been destroyed politically, uh, their careers attacked. You know, when I spoke to Don Lester and David Parker who wrote what really makes you ill? You know, they pointed me to Charles Creighton who was, uh, a British doctor uh, around the turn of the century. and, uh, people had, people had asked, uh, uh, Creighton because he was such a well esteemed, uh, British doctor to write the encyclopedia entry for, uh, smallpox vaccinations.

And, uh, this was for the encyclopedia Britanica he went about, uh, uh, looking at the history of smallpox vaccinations, looking at all the data. And to his shock and surprise realized that they were, uh, a fraud that they had absolutely no relationship with, uh, the rise or decline of smallpox. And then he, uh, he wrote that as his, uh, encyclopedia Britanica, uh, entry.

But, uh, it was then deleted and he was then attacked. So there’s a, there’s a really extraordinary history. You know, whether it’s Eleanor McBean, uh, back in the 1920s or whether it’s Ethel Hume, I think she wrote in like 1910 or something like that. Talking about, uh, uh bamp and his Uh, attempts to out, uh, pastor for pastor’s fraudulent science.

There’s like a, a huge history of people who’ve been trying to, uh, to, uh, get the word out among scientists, among doctors and just among, you know, ordinary people like us that we are, , uh, have been sort of wrapped up in a In his scam for,

[00:51:17] Alex Tsakiris: for a very long time. So Mike tell people real quickly about the product itself.

Like I said, uh, the, the first episode is still available for free from the website. And then the additional episodes come bundle together. It’s 12 bucks. You get to watch how many hours is it total?

[00:51:34] Michael Wallach: Uh, so the whole thing is seven and a half hours total. Uh, the first two and a half hours are free. And, uh, yeah, we just asked that if you, you know, if you enjoyed the first two and a half hours, if you feel like you got something out of that and you wanna investigate the history of it you know, the rest is 1199.

In terms of the structure of it, we look really, uh, really, really, really carefully at C uh, in that first episode. And then in the second episode, we go back and we look at the history of virology and the birth of virology, uh, which really came about you know, in the. It, you know, at the beginning of the 20th century, in the 1950s, uh, with, uh, virology take on polio and measles.

So we look really carefully at polio. Uh, and then in third episode, we look at we look at, uh, smallpox, uh, we look at the Spanish flu and a really fun one. We look at, uh, the great plague and stories about the great plague, the black death and then in, uh, Episode four. Uh, we look at, uh, the history of aids and, uh, and then, you know, essentially so much of what is called virology today is, uh, infused with, uh, genomics and genomic sequencing.

So we took a really close look at, uh, genomic sequencing in the fifth.

[00:52:53] Alex Tsakiris: Great. I’ll tell you what, as a way to kind of wrap this up, why don’t we return to that opening quote that I read that, uh, I think we could all get behind and, and you’re talking about the possibility you’re being a little.

Optimistic, which we all need with this topic, you know, what is the possibility for freeing ourselves from misguided medical authorities, disas health protocols, and the corruption in and injustice of this system? What, what is the, what is the possibility? In what ways are you not Pollyanna, but are you maybe optimistic that things can change course?

[00:53:38] Michael Wallach: Yeah, I think there’s a huge there there’s, there, there have been a lot of positives to this obviously insanely negative story. And the big one is that, uh, a lot of people have decided to look into all these topics and, uh, and, and a lot of the illegitimate trust that people had in the medical establishment is no longer.

So, you know, for the first time, in a long time, I think there’s a lot of people who are, uh, willing to walk away from that establishment. They don’t trust, uh, their doctors anymore. They recognize that their doctors are not as well educated on these issues as they thought they were. Uh, they don’t trust the CDC or the FDA or NIH, uh, and their pronouncements and proclamations because, uh, they can see for themselves.

That the models they use, uh, don’t turn out to be true that their statements contradict each other, uh, that, uh, scare tactics and fear campaigns are the bread and butter of these agencies. So for the first time, in a long time, we have a, a, a, a mass walkout that is happening quietly. And the question.

Where, where are these people going to go, right? Where what’s the vision for where we go? And, you know, it’s, it’s obviously this is, that’s a conversation and I can’t prescribe where that vision’s gonna go for other people. But what to me would be a real tragedy would be if people walked outta that system and then rebuilt that very same system of Of, you know, pseudoscience and authorities, uh, who, who, you know, sit you know, on top of these institutions and make proclamations that that can’t be verified and don’t follow, uh, actual science, natural science.

So, you know, my hope is that we can, uh, return to. Uh, a much more practical, common sense approach to health and to science. You know, in the, in, you know, before world war II, there were two branches of of medicine or medical science that were growing very rapidly and those were nutrition and toxic.

That was the study of, you know, our, our health in terms of what we eat and our health in terms of, you know, what pollutants, uh, are around us from industrial society. And both of those were almost, uh, completely wiped out by the growth of virology in the 1950s. Because, uh, in my opinion It was, uh, far more modifiable to scare people, uh, about viruses and then to, uh, provide them with pills and injections, uh, than it was to look at health, uh, from a nutritional point of view or from the perspective of, uh, in what ways are we being, uh, you know, poisoned by what’s around us.

So I, I hope that when we walk out or as we walk. We can rebuild these, these really foundational sciences and approaches, which are based on living you know, healthy, he healthy lives in a healthy world.

[00:56:59] Alex Tsakiris: Great, Mike, we, we haven’t, we haven’t looped you in enough. Any final thoughts as we wrap things up?

[00:57:07] Mike Stone: No, I, I completely agree with Michael. You know, it’s been a bad situation the last few years. If there is a, a shining light it’s that people are becoming more aware of the problems. They’re, they’re seeing that there are fundamental issues with science that we are being presented with. And so I do see people challenging this and question it and trying to, you know, halt the, the path that we’re on and steering us in towards, uh, you know, a path that goes back towards you know, real science following the scientific method and making sure.

What we are shown actually has, you know, some value to it that, that that’s, you know, reproducible, repeatable that the information, you know, we’re not just gonna accept information just because someone, when a white coat is telling us that this is the truth, people are actually exploring it and searching for the truth for themselves.

And. You know, making sure that this is accurate information. So to me at least to, I, I see that in a positive direction, there’s a lot more people in position of power or authority that are coming out, stepping out like Dr. Kaufman Cowan, you know, the Baileys they’ve been excellent. Dr. Scolio you know, a lot of people Michael interviewed, but I mean, there’s more and more popping up every day that are.

Questioning the narrative right now and our, our sound and alarm. And I think, you know, whether they agree with us on our position or not, at least people are looking at it. And, you know, I, I think we have to return to a, a place where we’re our own experts, not just trusting people in the position of authority.

So I, I see progress in that sense.

[00:58:42] Alex Tsakiris: Great. The film that you’re gonna wanna check out again is the viral delusion. Our guests have been Michael Wallock the producer director of really very well done film. And, uh, Mike Stone has been nice enough to jump in here and bat around some ideas. So thanks to both of you for joining me.

[00:59:02] Michael Wallach: Uh, you’re welcome. Thank you, Alex. Thanks for having us

=====

[00:59:05] Alex Tsakiris: Thanks again to Michael Wallach for joining me today on skeptical and a special thanks to John from the skeptical forum for reaching out and making this connection. I really enjoyed having the chance to have a dialogue on this topic. , You know, I searched for a bio. On Mike Wallach before the show and kind of my own lack of, I should’ve looked for Michael Wallach rather than Mike Wallach at any rate, I did find it afterwards and I thought it was so, so interesting that I wanted to read it and add it to the show.

Mike Wallach is a graduate of Cornell. Who holds a master’s degree in international affairs from Columbia. He went on to become a presidential management fellow for the state department where he was giving briefings to president Obama, But frustrated with the misuse of his work. He left the government to pursue his dream. Of filmmaking. While it’s first grip, the bay, an ecological thriller. By the way you might want to watch the trailer on that one. Particularly in light of kind of trying to put all these pieces together. Anyways, that movie, the bay was directed by Oscar winning director. Barry Levinson. Who is also behind wag the dog. Good morning, Vietnam.

And some other just huge, huge movies. So I thought that was very interesting in terms of a background for this guy. Who has this new documentary series? The viral delusion. What do you think about that?

Let me know. Until next time. Take care. And bye for now.

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