Author Mark Gober… great reset… scary stuff… how does it look from a non-dual perspective… does evil matter?
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[00:00:00] Alex Tsakiris: Um, this episode of Skeptiko, a show about feeling out of.
San Tr Dubai. We’ve, we’ve done our fair share of travel, when I tell you I have never in my life seen a city with this level. Of, of wealth
the cheapest cheeseburger is like $86. You cannot get a cheeseburger for less than 80 bucks. The club sandwich is $75. A coffee is $25.
[00:00:31] Alex Tsakiris: and when that might not be a bad thing.
[00:00:36] Alex Tsakiris: , there’s a certain, tone deafness to people who hang out in Davo, Switzerland and eight $50 hamburgers
[00:00:43] Mark Gober: I had heard about Davos, , and it was this idea of you’re an influential person and this is a place where people are going to help the world.
[00:00:50] Alex Tsakiris: Back to your earlier point, Of course, they’re being deceptive. Of course, they’re being elitist. Of course. They think that the sheep need to be herded they’re so beyond that, that it’s second nature to ’em. I think it’s more helpful to switch to Kissinger, because I think you can only understand Klaus Schwab, but understanding Henry Kissinger
[00:01:14] Alex Tsakiris: That first clip was from the Logan Paul gang on their trip to Davos. The second was from, today’s guest, mark Gober, returning guest with his new book and End to the Upside Down.
[00:01:28] Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I’m your host, Alex Tsakiris, and today we welcome Mark Gober back to Skeptiko. Mark keeps cranking out these fantastic books in his upside down series and I just keep having them back cause they’re so good. Every time I run across one of them.
[00:01:56] Alex Tsakiris: And the last one and end to Upside Down Reset is no exception. And, uh, mark, it’s great to have you back. Thanks for joining me here on
[00:02:06] Mark Gober: Skeptiko, Alex. Thank, thank you so much for having me back. It’s always fun chatting with you and I’m looking forward to this topic.
[00:02:13] Alex Tsakiris: Well, this topic as it turns out, , this is almost like.
[00:02:18] Alex Tsakiris: To me it’s a model for this Skeptiko reboot thing, you know? And I don’t know exactly how this conversation is gonna go because I guess we should fill people in a little bit. I actually did a pretty extensive pre-interview with you that was really great. And we really talked about this topic of the great reset, but then we talked about a lot of other things in terms of particularly what connected me from a Skeptiko perspective to this book and your perspective on this topic.
[00:02:53] Alex Tsakiris: And, and then from there, uh, we scheduled the interview and I said, wait, wait, I got in the middle. I said, wait, you know, there’s a couple more interviews I’d like to do. Before we do that, I’d like to go interview Johnny Edmore, who’s done this incredible series along with Whitney Webb on Unlimited Hangout on.
[00:03:10] Alex Tsakiris: The Schwab family and on all this stuff related to this fantastic work, interviewed him and then I said, Hey, in Charlie Robinson, he’s done some great work and the Octopus of Global Control fits into this as the, some of his worst recent work on, , Aspen Institute and all this globalist agenda stuff that’s going on.
[00:03:32] Alex Tsakiris: So I wanted to do all that mainly as kind of a result of us having that initial conversation where I think we both felt like, you know, maybe we were really troubled with this topic, but we were kind of coming at it from a different perspective that we hadn’t heard many other people talk about. So I just wanna have a very kind of freewheeling conversation about that.
[00:03:59] Alex Tsakiris: And uh, I know you’re open to that cuz whenever we do, we have really great conversations. So I’d start just by saying, I guess we have to start with. Kind of some definitional things and some basic things. You wrote this book and Into the Upside Down Reset thumbnail Sketch. What’s it about?
[00:04:21] Mark Gober: It looks at The Great Reset, which is the World Economic Forums vision for society.
[00:04:27] Mark Gober: And one of the reasons I felt comfortable writing this book is that I didn’t have to invoke conspiracy theory because they’ve written about this extensively. They’ve talked about it extensively in June of 2020. Klaus Schwab and Tre Malloy, Klaus Schwab is, is the head of the World Economic Forum. And, um, they published a book, COVID 19, the Great Reset, which goes through what Covid 19 meant in terms of being able to reset the world.
[00:04:50] Mark Gober: And they, they saw, um, an opportunity to implement many ideas that had been in place for a while. And then there’s a subsequent book, the Great Narrative. So in my book, I, I examine what is stated. What’s the stated vision? And I break it down into six categories. They don’t do it in this way, but as I evaluated all the things that have been said, I wanted to create this framework for myself, but also for others to then evaluate future events.
[00:05:14] Mark Gober: So the six categories. So
[00:05:16] Alex Tsakiris: hold on before you even go into the six categories, total normy question, and I don’t wanna do with a lot of normy stuff because I wanna dive deeper than that, but neither do I wanna just lay out a bunch of facts that everyone kind of knows. And it’s almost like the Normy perspective needs to be heard here, because that’s where I think we’re really gonna go with this, is you talk to, uh, number one, I talk to people about the great reset.
[00:05:43] Alex Tsakiris: Most of the time I get a blank steer, right? And these are educated, uh, people who know stuff and are, you know, in, in this world and in business. And they’re like this. And then when you explain it to ’em, a lot of times what they’ll do is go. Well, what’s so wrong with that? I mean, don’t we have global problems that we have to address and haven’t we always had people that are looking at things at this kind of bigger level that that ordinary people and even governments can’t?
[00:06:16] Alex Tsakiris: So, mark, why are you agitated? Why are people like me agitated with the
[00:06:24] Mark Gober: great. I’m glad you mentioned that, Alex, because I’ve talked to some very intelligent people in high powered positions who have not heard of the great reset. Maybe they’ve heard of the World Economic Forum, but they, again, they don’t see problems with the idea of powerful people getting together to try to help the world.
[00:06:40] Mark Gober: And I’m not convinced that everyone involved in the Great Reset has a nefarious intent. I think many of them think they’re helping. But the reason that I’m agitated and then many others get agitated is that the things that they talk about, even though they might have a veneer of compassion, it’s out of, you know, this is for the common good, the results might not be so good.
[00:06:59] Mark Gober: So they’re talking about things like centralized power, uh, more global control, uh, technological surveillance, transhumanism, metaverse, those sorts of things, which could spiral in a very negative direction. And given what we’ve seen starting in 2020, but probably even before that, it was, it became very clear in 2020, um, where global government started to control citizens much more that.
[00:07:24] Mark Gober: I view these things now as a much more serious
[00:07:26] Alex Tsakiris: threat. You know, and I, I’d jump in there again because I’d say you just made a transition , that that should be troubling to people because it’s like, this is a, a part of the game that’s played over and over again, which is like, since when does solving global problems or looking at gro global issues entail, transhumanism entail, uh, worldwide vaccination programs and sponsoring what, what, who, who voted for that being the top agenda items as a global thing?
[00:08:03] Alex Tsakiris: So it, again, it, it kind of is sailing in under this, there are some global problems. Let’s get the brightest, smartest people, let’s network ’em together about solving these problems. But then when they come out of it and there are all these other agenda items that none of us would put on the list, do, what do you
[00:08:20] Mark Gober: think about that?
[00:08:22] Mark Gober: I agree with you. So I’m thinking now of some of the clips I heard from Davos, which is the annual meeting for the World Economic Forum and associated, uh, individuals. There’s a clip of Tony Blair talking about the need for, um, a way to keep track of who’s been vaccinated and who’s not vaccinated. And that was the sort of thing that people called a conspiracy theory not too long ago.
[00:08:44] Mark Gober: And now not only is it not a conspiracy theory, but it’s being advocated for that we need to keep track of people’s health status and that could become more well in very quickly. So I, I, the problem here is that yes, we have a bunch of people who are very influential and powerful and very intelligent in many cases, but it’s, they’re looking at the problems from their perspective and they’re looking at their own solutions.
[00:09:07] Mark Gober: And these are not people that we’ve elected, we haven’t voluntarily asked for them to create these solutions for us. And that’s where the problem can come in if things are imposed without our explicit consent.
[00:09:17] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah, and it’s, it’s, it’s also people don’t realize, cuz you talk about this and you just, it, it’s.
[00:09:25] Alex Tsakiris: A tricky thing to unravel. Like you said, these people are not elected and then people might naturally jump to the conclusion. Well then so what? Then they’re not really in power and then you go, no, you don’t get it. I mean, they’re highly, highly influential. I mean, they are influential at a level.
[00:09:42] Alex Tsakiris: Above a single government. They’re influential across governments. They’re the go-to for the World Health Organization in terms of getting marching orders, or at least apparently getting marching orders. They’re the go-to for the United Nations in terms of setting agenda. At least they say, we’ve gotten this from the World Economic Forum.
[00:10:02] Alex Tsakiris: There’s countless number of world leaders who reference this group, so. In this, as we start to unravel it, is we do have this kind of normy world and then we have this radically conspiratorial paranoid world, which I think is much closer to the truth. But the, the truth is undoubtedly someplace in between.
[00:10:25] Alex Tsakiris: But the n i, I think we have to really kind of, we’ve done it maybe, but really dispel the idea that the normy view of this makes any sense at all. Cuz it doesn’t, this is not a normy kind of thing. There’s some major agenda setting here that is, that is working its way into law, working its way into policy.
[00:10:48] Alex Tsakiris: Already has and is highly influential in terms of where we’re. Do you have anything to add to that? Yeah,
[00:10:56] Mark Gober: I wanna say that what you’re describing very well here is one of the reasons I wanted to write the book is to lay these facts out. And these are just objective facts in many cases of things. The World Economic Forum has said, um, Klaus Schwab for example, has said we penetrate the cabinets with his Young Global Leaders program.
[00:11:14] Mark Gober: Um, meaning that they have the world economic forums. Young global leaders are in governments all over the world, not necessarily in some cases the highest positions like Justin Trudeau, Vladimir Putin, but in other cases people you might not know about. And that’s insignificant because they might be, um, influence the World Economic Forum or its partners might be influencing governments, which can then impose things on its citizens.
[00:11:36] Mark Gober: So I think it’s important for people to understand these basic facts that this is objectively happening. Maybe some people will, will, won’t think it’s as harmful as I do, or maybe you do. Just to put on the table that this isn’t only some fringe conspiracy theory like on many of the YouTube videos. Now, if you talk about the Great reset, Wikipedia has a little thing at the bottom which explains, oh, the Great reset is an economic plan, which makes it seem like it’s some kind of conspiracy.
[00:12:01] Mark Gober: This is just objectively what’s happening, so I’m glad we’re starting there.
[00:12:04] Alex Tsakiris: And let’s jump over to the, uh, radically paranoid conspiracy angle on it too, because that deserves some, serious attention. Even if we pull back from it. What is the, the deepest, darkest, Orwellian dystopian, uh, kind of understanding of what’s kind of revealed?
[00:12:26] Alex Tsakiris: Cuz you can read it, it, it doesn’t take , it doesn’t take much of a stretch. A as your book points out, you just read the book and you go, oh my God, they’re right. Everything these conspiracy theorists are saying is laid out right here. You will own nothing and you will be happy. You will have to eat less meat.
[00:12:45] Alex Tsakiris: You will not be able to travel unless you have a passport. I mean, they’re just kind of saying it. This is what we’re gonna do.
[00:12:51] Mark Gober: Well, the deepest, darkest. Ideas here for me, go to the metaphysical area. And this relates to some of our prior conversations in my previous books, particularly my last book and End to Upside Down Contact, which looks at UFOs, aliens and Spirits.
[00:13:06] Mark Gober: And the idea is that human beings are not alone. And there are other intelligences that exist, some of which might be physical, others of which might be multidimensional. And some of those beings seem to be benevolent and others are not so benevolent. So my, my mind goes to, well, what is the relationship between malevolent entities that are non-human and things that are happening on the planet?
[00:13:29] Mark Gober: So when I look at the Great Reset, which is to me it’s, it’s one iteration of a general ideology, an ideology that wants to control people. We call it the Great Reset. And the World Economic Forum is just one version of it. And I like to be able to write about it because it’s very topical and they’ve laid out the plan.
[00:13:47] Mark Gober: But this is not a new idea of centralized global control. and sort of an an anti-human mindset that sometimes comes, comes into play. Um, which to me resembles a lot of the really dark stuff that I’ve examined in, in some of these other books. So for just example, , ritual abuse of children, animals and other humans where the idea is, um, through horrific practices, it’s possible to invoke dark entities, demons.
[00:14:16] Mark Gober: And this is a historic practice. It’s been going on for a long time, but there are many survivors in, in the modern era, many therapists who have worked with these survivors. And I talk about this in an end, upside-down contact, some of the evidence for it. Not to say that every case is a hundred percent real, but there are some for sure.
[00:14:31] Mark Gober: And that’s what matters because it tells us that there is a level of, of sophistication associated with evil that exists. And what one of the themes that comes up when I’ve looked at this is that the dark energy wants to eradicate love and innocence and it, it wants to, , Keep people in a state of fear and trauma, that that just seems to emerge over and over again.
[00:14:53] Mark Gober: So if you take some of those horrific rituals as like the, the most evil of the evil that you could imagine, some of those themes seem to be happening on a macro level too, that were perpetually in a state of fear. Um, and we know from these rituals and also from MK Ultra, that when you traumatize someone, you can start to dissociate the personality, create multiple personalities, and that like you, like you covered in your amazing interview with Tom Zinzer, that might open multi-dimensional opportunities for dark entities to come in.
[00:15:22] Mark Gober: So what I’m getting at Alex here, and then I’ll pause is, is what’s happening with the great Resetter, just this general movement toward global control related to darker energies that have an anti-human tendency that want to keep our inner love, inner divinity, if you want to call it that, suppressed in some way.
[00:15:42] Alex Tsakiris: , I asked you to go full paranoid conspiracy and you overshot the mark by about three or four , three or four degrees, which, which is great cuz where you went is really , where I go in this. But I wanna make it clear that that’s not really where most people go. Mm-hmm. . And I think that’s the strength of this conversation we’re about to have.
[00:16:06] Alex Tsakiris: I, I pulled you up before from laying out the structure of the book. Let’s go back and do that.
[00:16:13] Mark Gober: Sure. So the book is divided into two sections, and there’s an introduction and conclusion. The first section of the book looks at the psychology underlying a lot of the great reset rhetoric.
[00:16:23] Mark Gober: And to just summarize very briefly, it’s about the weaponization of compassion and how that kind of mentality can fool good people who have a caring intention. And that’s actually my biggest concern. I’m much less concerned about the really evil stuff these days. I’m more concerned about the good people who are falling for the dark stuff and they don’t see it as dark.
[00:16:42] Alex Tsakiris: , hold up. Full, full stop there. , the weaponization of compassion is powerful. Yeah, but I think you have to, I think you have to really support that because you understand the pushback on that. And there’s some valid pushback on that, which is, . One person’s weaponization is another person’s, uh, actualization or implementation
[00:17:07] Alex Tsakiris: , how and when do we judge what is the weaponization of compassion? And before we get there, give me an example of what you think we’re talking about.
[00:17:16] Mark Gober: , this general example is the notion of like collectivism, that we should be doing things for the common good.
[00:17:23] Mark Gober: And we’ve seen historically how that can lead to horrific instances. , whether it’s in communism or fascism. They end up with a highly collectivistic mindset where you can say, oh, well we can do these horrible things to individuals because it’s in service of the greater good. , let’s just take the treatment of people who were not vaccinated as an example.
[00:17:42] Alex Tsakiris: Are you, are you a good citizen? Have you been vaccinated? I just heard that exact, , question asked to, what’s that guy’s name? Dave Rubin, you know, and it’s just, it’s jarring.
[00:17:54] Mark Gober: . So the term that I use in this book and also my book and into Upside Down Living is compassion with discernment.
[00:18:00] Mark Gober: And the more I think about it, the more I think that’s a really important idea because especially those of us who have a, a non-dual spiritual understanding that we’re all one at some level, and you look at near death experiences and psychedelic accounts and meditation experiences, people talk about the same essence of benevolence that they come back with.
[00:18:16] Mark Gober: It’s hard to describe with words, it’s ineffable, but I just listen to more and more people. They, they had this very benevolent, uh, picture of, of reality that’s interconnected and they can’t get past that. So to me, that’s important data. Just objectively, I can’t reject that. But then that can lead people to just sit, just want to be compassionate towards everyone, be loving towards everyone.
[00:18:35] Mark Gober: I tell the story in my book and End Upside Down, living a woman, she had some kind of spiritual awakening. She met a man, let him into her home, and then she said it was hell. The guy started manipulating her and it, she, she couldn’t discern. . So it’s like the compassion is the first step. That’s part of the non-dual understanding.
[00:18:50] Mark Gober: But the paradox is that we live in duality. That there’s mark and Alex, that there is separation at this level, even though at some level we seem to be interconnected. So the discernment, this is what you’re getting to in the show, increasingly Alex deception, that that exists in this world. It’s, it’s a very important aspect of this world.
[00:19:07] Mark Gober: So there’s gotta be the compassion first, then the understanding of deception and asking the question, is the compassion applied appropriately here, or should we be thinking about it differently? So that’s what I try to bring out a lot in this first half of the book.
[00:19:19] Alex Tsakiris: And, and I’m gonna bring you back to the word that you used though, cuz it’s really the, the, the important word, the operative word.
[00:19:25] Alex Tsakiris: And that’s weaponization. Mm. Because if you go there with a deception thing, and if you say deception is not only real, but deception’s always in play, deception is the way the world really works. If you wanna be objective and look at how things get done. Cuz we’re basically in a world of conquest, one group conquering another, uh, in militarily, physically dominating.
[00:19:49] Alex Tsakiris: And war doesn’t really discriminate too much between deception or those kind of things. It doesn’t, it doesn’t apply so much. So it, it, the war model does fit in with weaponization. So the idea of weaponizing compassion, what you’re pointing at is that if you have this, I gotta take that hill at all costs,
[00:20:12] Alex Tsakiris: to the extent that I can control people by , placating them with this idea that they are being compassionate, because I find that that pushes their buttons, then yeah, that just becomes another play in my playbook.
[00:20:26] Mark Gober: It’s almost like there are different types of evil, if we wanna call it that way. There’s the, the really obvious type where it’s murderous and, um, torturing people. I mean, that’s like a horror movie, but then there’s the, the de deceptive part where it’s, it’s masquerading as benevolent. It’s a trickster and it’s, I think it’s easier for people who ha maybe let’s say this is part of our essence, that we’re all part of the one consciousness we.
[00:20:52] Mark Gober: Benevolence within us to get people who have that innate benevolence to go along with something. In many cases, it might be easier to give them a bit of that benevolence on the surface and to just hope they’re not gonna see what’s beyond that surface level appearance.
[00:21:05] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. I, I agree. and you know, the, one of the things that I kept coming back to again, we’re just gonna kind of roll with this and kind of see where it leads.
[00:21:13] Alex Tsakiris: But this is who we are. this is America. You know, the good and the, and the bad. The, the, you know, I love this story. I was listening to, uh, Bruce Springsteen live on Broadway. You know, he tells all these stories between the, his songs, and I never was much of a Bruce Springsteen fan, and I sure as hell I am now, but he was talking about his most famous, iconic song.
[00:21:38] Alex Tsakiris: Born in the usa, which if anyone remembers it and listens to it, is really a protest song. It’s really, uh, an activist activism song. And he said when he first came out with it, it was kind of misunderstood, is misunderstood as a, you know, make America Great Again song. And then when the, the, the Republicans, the right wing kind of co-opted the song and they even used it.
[00:22:05] Alex Tsakiris: He got really pissed and he was fighting him and telling him, no, that’s not what it’s about. You know, it’s about this guy and I get forced to go kill the yellow man kind of thing. But then in his older age, and Bruce is older, he realized that maybe it’s the greatest song that he ever wrote because it really encompasses all that shit, all that horrible shit that we’ve done.
[00:22:30] Alex Tsakiris: All the Abu grave shit and all the slavery shit, and all the. Nine 11 shit and all of that. And yet we’re still somewhat, or we need to try and be that beacon of light, that light on the hill. You know what I mean? And maybe that’s why we’re talking today, because we care about what we, what we can be, not what we default into, not the, the, the worst that we use in the weaponization of these things that we have.
[00:23:05] Alex Tsakiris: And I just think that just like Springsteen came around to the idea that. , maybe that song is his greatest song because it is an embodiment of that. We don’t wanna live in North Korea, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. , and that’s what came up in my interview with, uh, with Charlie Robinson, who does an awesome job and was highly influenced by, you know, uh, confessions of an economic hitman.
[00:23:30] Alex Tsakiris: But when you really think about that and you go, yeah, they went, we went over and we fucked over, uh, Uganda by putting in a billion dollar hydrogen electric plant in the middle of jungle that they have no, no place to send the electricity. But we did it to stop the commies from getting there. And at some point somebody sat down with somebody like you or I good heartfelt people and said, look, kid, I hate to tell.
[00:24:00] Alex Tsakiris: but it’s, you know, this way or that way. Uganda’s gonna go, Kami or Uganda’s gonna go with us. You know, which do you want and what are you willing to sacrifice maybe isn’t the word, but what are you willing to tolerate in terms of stretching your morals in order for us to get there? Does any of that resonate with kind of the other side of the, of the great reset?
[00:24:31] Mark Gober: Well, I, I think that, I say this in the book, it’s, it’s. We don’t know the intent of each person involved. We can try to guess, but that’s a separate exercise to know what they, whether they’re trying to enslave people or whether they mean well, or whether they’re being blackmailed. We just don’t know the real forces unless you knew the person well, or unless you’re inside their mind.
[00:24:49] Mark Gober: So I, I do think there probably are some people who think, yeah, this is gonna be, uh, it might harm some people to enact X, y, and Z measures, but in the end it’s gonna be for the greater good. And one of the things I’ve been thinking about, I write about this in the book too, there’s a, a psychological incentive, especially for people who think they’re good and, and wanna be compassionate to ignore the instances in which they’re not being compassionate, because it would be too painful to acknowledge that.
[00:25:16] Mark Gober: And I think there’s some cognitive dissonance that’s happening all over the place where people would have to admit that they not only were wrong, but they were being not compassionate. And for people who care so much about compassion, that could be a painful thing.
[00:25:27] Alex Tsakiris: That’s awesome, mark. And you know what I think let, let’s uh, walk through that in terms of the players now, cuz one of the things that’s kind of come up for me that has really set this thing in a different direction is you start with Klaus Schwab, who’s become this, this meme who’s become this.
[00:25:46] Alex Tsakiris: ultimate villain for a lot of people. And you get the feeling that he didn’t really see that coming. He wasn’t like super smart. I mean, about that part of it, about his public image. And, and the reveal to that is that, uh, you will own nothing and you will be happy. The worst marketing slogan ever.
[00:26:05] Alex Tsakiris: I mean, it’s, there’s a certain, tone deafness to the, the, the people who hang out in Davo, Switzerland and eight $50 hamburgers and think, well, gee, you know what’s, let, let’s figure out what the world needs from from this perspective. Let’s talk about how you understand him as a, as a person. And then we’re gonna also talk about Henry Kissinger, cuz I think those two, understanding them at this deeper level as human beings and the way that you just said, you know, the plus his minus is good, bad, complex people.
[00:26:41] Alex Tsakiris: It’s gonna be really, really, Enlightening to, to where we’re gonna take this, I think. Okay.
[00:26:46] Mark Gober: Well, I’ll give my perspective from having read the literature. I know Johnny Edmore has gone really deep into Klaus Schwab’s history to the extent that we can because a lot of it’s been scrubbed, so that makes it difficult too, cuz we’re trying to piece things together.
[00:26:57] Mark Gober: But I can understand how someone might read Covid 19, the great reset and think it’s benign because it doesn’t come across as purely evil. It’s, we want a more compassionate world. We wanna do things for the common good and therefore we need the return of big government because government’s gonna help people.
[00:27:15] Mark Gober: We need more global coordination. Or if you get into the the next book, the Great Narrative, well we need stakeholder capitalism. We need to start controlling how companies do things through e s G, environmental social governance, and who wouldn’t want good, better things for the environment, better social and governance.
[00:27:31] Mark Gober: Those things all sound really good. It’s almost this, this next level of analysis of seeing where it could go wrong, seeing through. Maybe in this case it’s not even deception. Who knows? Maybe he’s not trying to deceive, maybe he literally thinks it is a good thing. But just seeing the, the downsides potentially of all this.
[00:27:46] Mark Gober: And maybe from my own personal experience of just having been in Silicon Valley in New York, going to Princeton for undergrad and knowing a lot of people who’ve been in high level positions just throughout my life. And like before I got, before I even started writing about consciousness, I had heard about Davos, you know, six plus years ago I’d heard about people going there and it was this idea of you’re an influential person and this is a place where people are going to help the world.
[00:28:12] Mark Gober: So I think a lot of people who are going there are genuinely have that mentality. And it’s possible that there’s some part of Klaus Schwab that feels that way too. And like you’re saying, Alex, there might be a tone deafness of people who are just part of a certain type of culture who, who think they’re doing good and they literally can’t see the downside.
[00:28:29] Mark Gober: So I’m giving a very um, The most benevolent picture you probably can give right there.
[00:28:35] Alex Tsakiris: And, and that’s not my, I’m not coming at at it from that angle, cuz I don’t, I mean, I think those guys. back to your earlier point, and you said it beautifully, so I won’t try and recapture it. , it becomes so ingrained in their thinking.
[00:28:49] Alex Tsakiris: Of course, they’re being deceptive. Of course, they’re being elitist. Of course. They think that the sheep need to be herded and that that’s what all these people are. You know, it’s like they’re so beyond that, that it’s second nature to ’em. I think it’s more helpful maybe to switch to Kissinger, because I think you can only understand Klaus Schwab, but understanding Henry Kissinger, that’s what I came away with after talking to, uh, Johnny Edmore in doing all my own research into Henry Kissinger because, You know when, when if, if you go look at the conspiracy kind of culture that we’re in, that you and I kind of mix in, Henry Kissinger Evil, one of the most evil men, war, criminal, evil, evil, evil.
[00:29:41] Alex Tsakiris: Go look at that guy’s background. Go look at some of the touch points. First one, I’d lay on the table crystal. Crystal knock. We all know crystal knock. Mm-hmm. the Nazis, who, if you understand the history of that, the Nazis just kind of stumble into control. They never win an election.
[00:30:01] Alex Tsakiris: They’re just kind of there and the economy goes totally decre. And they’re like, they look around, I’m like, all, all right. And then they get in, they immediately have the plan, they immediately have the World Economic Forum kind of plan, and they implement it to the hilt right off the bat. Verse 30 days, boom, boom, boom, boom.
[00:30:19] Alex Tsakiris: They’re laying it down. So if anyone thinks that this stuff doesn’t happen and a few people can’t do it, look to that. But crystal knock, if you don’t remember your history is when they went and they finally, you know, are targeting the, the Jews, which is a crazy thing, but that’ll come up again. But they go and they just start, crystal knock is, uh, Crystal’s glass and night nyclu.
[00:30:40] Alex Tsakiris: They go, , all these Jewish businesses and they, you know, like you’ve seen in the movies and put the big star David on, they say, get outta here. I said, let’s kick the Jews out. Now it’s becoming real at a level that even if you could kind of pretend like, Hey, maybe we can get along here. If you’re Jewish at this point, you can’t.
[00:31:01] Alex Tsakiris: And that’s what happens to Henry Kissinger’s parents. Cause three days, either after, before, I can’t remember, crystal knock, they go, oh my God, we have to leave. We have to leave everything. Everything that we’ve accumulated, our wealth, our business, everything, we’ve gotta leave it all behind just to get the hell outta here.
[00:31:19] Alex Tsakiris: And they get out of there. Wind up in New York and there’s Henry Kissinger. You can imagine this. He’s a kid, he’s a teenager and he’s walking now he’s walking on the other side of the street. Cause this is kind of the same shit. If you walk on the wrong side of the street and you’re Jewish, you get the shit beat outta you by the other kids.
[00:31:37] Alex Tsakiris: Right? He doesn’t speak the language, he can’t do anything socially and, but he’s in America and he’s glad that he’s away from what would’ve been ultimate destruction. So he joins the army and he eats ham for Uncle Sam, which is an expression that’s put forth by , a lot of Jews who, you know, say they kind of became assimilated into the US culture by going into the army where everyone’s just kind of treated, Hey, here’s your, I don’t wanna hear about anything cut.
[00:32:11] Alex Tsakiris: Here’s your dinner, just eat it, kind of thing. , he is 21 years old. He goes over and they put a rifle in his hand and he’s fighting Nazis and he’s got, he’s got dog tags around his neck that say he’s Jewish, which means if he is ever captured, it is immediately over, right? I mean, it is immediately over for that guy.
[00:32:38] Alex Tsakiris: But he’s a brilliant guy and he’s recognized as that. And he pretty quickly becomes put in this intelligence role inside the Army and in the Battle of the Bulge, he’s kind of brought to the headquarters and said, Hey, help us understand when these Germans come in, you speak the language and we know you’re loyal to us.
[00:32:58] Alex Tsakiris: Let’s figure this stuff out. And then later that becomes kind of a project paper clip thing, which I think he eventually evolves into a real project, paper clip role because he doesn’t leave Germany until 1947. What does that tell you? 1947. So now he’s going in, he knows the culture, he can speak the language perfectly and he’s meeting and he’s sorting through, not just who are the good Nazis and who are the bad Nazis, cuz we never really cared about that.
[00:33:31] Alex Tsakiris: He’s sorting through who are the Nazis we can use and who are the Nazis we won’t be able to use. Who are the Nazis who are even the worst or the worst? But we don’t want the Russians to get him. Undoubtedly. This is the role that he plays and this informs this guy we think is so evil because he overthrows virtually every government in Central and South America because he implements this nuclear destruction, mass nuclear destruction kind of thing.
[00:34:04] Alex Tsakiris: Cuz he’s kind of ruthless with foreign policy because he’s all the things that you talked about in terms of lacking in compassion. When you talk to the guy, he goes, no man, you don’t get it. I walked into the death camp, I saw it there, and I saw the people that did it and I saw the results and I know how bad it can get and I know what we’re fighting for.
[00:34:33] Alex Tsakiris: So you can argue that, he forgets the true benevolence, the true compassion, the true love that is behind that. But I think understanding that as that is America, this guy embodies America. And I’ll, I’ll stop there, but it’s interesting to note he is the most influential guy or one of the most influential guys in Klaus Schwab’s life, other than maybe his father.
[00:35:07] Alex Tsakiris: Give me your understanding of how we relate that to this situation we find ourselves in.
[00:35:15] Mark Gober: Well, if I were to summarize the mentality that I’m hearing you describe, it’s that the ends justify the means, and that can get to a point where the, the underlying benevolence is lost. And it can be, it can be used as a rationale to do things that are horrific in some ways, but the end result.
[00:35:35] Mark Gober: Because from an elitist perspective, we know what’s best for others and therefore we can sacrifice a bit here.
[00:35:42] Alex Tsakiris: ? Does the end ever justify the means?
[00:35:46] Mark Gober: Good question. I don’t, I don’t even think about it that way myself, so I’m having trouble answering it. I, I start from the lens of, from the spiritual lens of.
[00:35:56] Mark Gober: Who are we? Why are we here? And then we should act accordingly rather than the pers. I think the end justify the means has a bit of a, a lack of intellectual humility built into it. It’s the belief that we know what’s best, what result is best, and therefore, however we need to get there, we can get there.
[00:36:17] Alex Tsakiris: But Mark, you, you live. I was thinking about that just this morning. I was walking the dog. Beautiful day, Southern California. I’m down on the beach. I have an incredibly beautiful life style. I have a great family. I have so many wonderful things. If someone really sat me down and said, bro, grow up. You don’t wanna give any of that up.
[00:36:45] Alex Tsakiris: Here’s what’s necessary to maintain your lifestyle. Drive 30 miles south, Alex, go to Tijuana. Do you want that? You want that? Is that what you want? Oh man, put me back, put me back on the beach in Del Mar.
[00:37:01] Mark Gober: Good point. It’s like, where do you draw the line with these sorts of things? It, it comes down to individual judgment ultimately. And then you get into really spiritual, philosophical questions about free will and where you make your decisions ultimately.
[00:37:14] Mark Gober: Um, and then how that, that then spins into a discussion of individual discernment, which goes back to this notion of compassion with discernment. That’s where I land, that you wanna be compassionate and then you have to figure out, where to go from there. By your own judgment. And it also
[00:37:34] Alex Tsakiris: gets back to, to the weaponization word that you used.
[00:37:38] Alex Tsakiris: Mm-hmm. , because we’ll tolerate a little bit of weaponization, just not too much weaponization. But I actually think that this is the dialogue that you and I are seeking, not just for ourselves, but this is the collective dialogue I think we’re seeking. We understand that America is flawed, it’s not perfect and that it’s never been perfect, but.
[00:38:08] Alex Tsakiris: It’s our job to be that voice and say, you know what? We’re gonna fight for the best we can be in a, in a compromised situation that we find ourselves in, in a world of complex individuals with different motives and all the rest of that. And, you know, you wanna talk about, uh, globalization and you have some valid agenda items.
[00:38:32] Alex Tsakiris: Great. But, you know, as you and I talked about on the last, the last time we spoke, one of the things I really like and respect about you is we kind of came down to this truth thing and it’s like, you know, unfortunately you can’t really mess with the truth and get where you wanna be. You can’t say, you know, I, I, I’ll, I’ll just control the narrative.
[00:38:55] Alex Tsakiris: People wouldn’t really understand. People can’t handle it. None of that ultimately works, does it?
[00:39:01] Mark Gober: No, because our decisions are based on the information that we have, and if the information’s not comprehensive, then we might make, uh, suboptimal decisions.
[00:39:10] Mark Gober: And that’s where the truth comes in. And that’s where, I mean, my journey is, it’s based around that trying to understand what’s actually going on in the world and physically and meta physically. Because once I know, uh, have a better sense to the answers to those questions, then I can know what to do and what my place is.
[00:39:25] Mark Gober: Um, but then on a micro level, how do I make decisions and how do I think about these trade-offs of, of like compassion with discernment? So one of the issues in researching all this stuff and even talking about it, is that we’re working with incomplete information that’s just part of life. So we’re trying to draw inferences, but we don’t know everything
[00:39:47] Alex Tsakiris: And maybe even more troubling where we started, cuz I don’t want to just paint over this. What we do know is really, really troubling , right? Because the information that we, that we do have coming out of it is pretty darn scary and stupid. The thing that I always come back to, because, uh, science I think does provide a shining light through this in some ways, but the light is being obscured.
[00:40:15] Alex Tsakiris: So the, the pillars of the reset are two things that stand on compromise. Science, junk science, fake science, misrepresented science. One is global warming, which if we have to explain to you now what a sham it is, it’s you, you gotta go do the research. But I’ll tell you this. Put some ice in a glass and then sit there and see that the water level rises.
[00:40:44] Alex Tsakiris: And then go ask chat. G p t, the new AI overlord. What is the sea level rise in the last hundred years in Boston, Los Angeles, Miami. All of them. Virtually none. So it, it, there I went ahead and I couldn’t resist because people still think, you know, still think global warming is a real thing. They even think global warming is a real thing when we’ve had 30 years of global warming, , models that have completely failed.
[00:41:15] Alex Tsakiris: , the point being that . , you and I are leery right off the bat because the deception begins. Their cornerstone elements to their whole program are deceptive, global warming, and the other is the efficacy and safety of vaccines, which has been completely dispelled.
[00:41:34] Alex Tsakiris: I mean, even the wrong data is coming back now. So if those are the cornerstones that are really advancing this from a scientific basis, Man, that’s really scary, isn’t
[00:41:45] Mark Gober: it? Right? So if we go back to this idea of compassion with discernment, we’re talking about discernment right now, and a lot of people’s discernment is based on facts that they believe to be true, certain assumptions, and where are those assumptions coming from and why are they to be trusted, whether it’s with regard to climate change or vaccines or consciousness science.
[00:42:04] Mark Gober: All these things were being presented with information where if you investigate it beyond the surface level, it doesn’t, there seems to be a lot more to the story consistently, and this is where it is very much an information battle. The more I look at this, because you get good people who will support something that’s not good in the end because they’re using assumptions that aren’t accurate.
[00:42:23] Mark Gober: I, I find myself right now in a more pessimistic state than I have been previously because of this very issue of good people who I don’t see looking past the, the data that they’re presented with.
[00:42:34] Alex Tsakiris: Exactly. So you know, a few episodes ago I interviewed Dr. Bernardo Castro, and I think you and I have talked about this fantastic guy on the consciousness issue, one of the most clear thinkers and writers on it, completely shatters the existing materialistic paradigm, which is also totally a part of this transhumanism agenda, which is a significant part of the great reset.
[00:42:59] Alex Tsakiris: So that does fit in, but then you pull Bernardo over here and he’s been totally sucked into, and he’s a science guy, he should know better. He’s totally sucked into the climate thing. And as you, you, as you just said, It’s really, really, uh, troubling because we understand you and I especially cuz we’re willing to go and look at the conspiratorial side.
[00:43:21] Alex Tsakiris: We understand mind control, we understand mass mind control. We understand what it can do to large groups and you say, wow, it, it, it has penetrated a. This science community all the way up to the top where they can’t see it. And even when you just give them basic facts, they just cannot process it in the same way that we always say, oh, you know, the Normies can’t see it.
[00:43:43] Alex Tsakiris: It’s like, no, man. Now it’s like some of the top science guys can’t see it. You can’t have an intelligent conversation about this, , about climate change. I just heard Alexa Friedman just did a four hour debate on climate, and it wasn’t a debate. He tried to make it a debate at the beginning. He goes, okay, well, you know, there’s some people who, you know, I kind of think it’s a little bit alarmist on one side, and there’s this as a middle ground.
[00:44:09] Alex Tsakiris: He hands it over to the guy from the New York Times. He goes, oh, no, no, no. It’s, there’s no debate. There’s no scientific debate about climate. It’s how can there be no scientific debate? The technology for measuring the climate has changed radically in the last 20 years. How can you say that this. This is what’s troubling to me too, as you just said, because it’s hard to see how we get out of that.
[00:44:39] Alex Tsakiris: What do you think?
[00:44:40] Mark Gober: So two things come up for me. One is the fact that there are, in my own journey, and probably for others too, there are multiple paradigm shifts. Starting out as a complete, I’ll call myself normy, but I wasn’t even, I didn’t even have a, a normy opinion. I just didn’t care about anything other than like what I was focused on in my job.
[00:44:57] Mark Gober: I wasn’t thinking about the world comprehensively, and I did have a materialist perspective. I thought life was random and meaningless. Biological robots in a meaningless universe. I thought that’s what science was teaching us. So my first paradigm shift was, okay, that’s wrong. We live in a meaningful universe.
[00:45:10] Mark Gober: We’re not just biological robots post materialism, but that is inadequate. That’s sort of like the compassion part because once you get there, p post materialist, you see interconnectivity, you see love. Okay, great. That’s a huge part of it. You get to non-duality, I think, pretty easily. Then the second paradigm shift is understanding the, the deception.
[00:45:28] Mark Gober: That you’ve been covering so well on your show, and that’s its own rabbit hole. But you gotta have both paradigm shifts and maybe there are others too. And there are lots of sub paradigm shifts within those and lots of things to discern. And that’s where my pessimism is coming in. I’m seeing one paradigm shift or the other.
[00:45:43] Mark Gober: I’m more focused on the, the post materialist paradigm. People who’ve got that down than don’t see the deception because those people are really good. And I, I know they mean so well and how, how much good they could do if they saw past some of the deception. And there’s a, there’s a, a psychological hurdle.
[00:45:59] Mark Gober: So I’ve been thinking back to the interview that was done in the 1980s with Yuri Beov, allegedly an ex a K G B guy. I think there’s been some dispute about his history. So I haven’t written about in my books, but he says some things that I, that seem to be right, and he said it’s called ideological subversion.
[00:46:16] Mark Gober: You get people to a point where they’re so brainwashed into looking at things a certain way that they literally cannot see the other side no matter how much data you present them with. I’m paraphrasing. So an interview I heard a while ago, but that is what I’m seeing. There is a psychological block and there there’s too much cognitive dissonance almost to see through it.
[00:46:35] Mark Gober: I, I experienced this with the consciousness stuff. You’ve done a really good job covering this on your show of people. You present them with the side data, the statistical analysis doesn’t matter. They’re not gonna see through it. But that goes along with this deception paradigm too, that no matter what you present, they’ll, they’ll find a way to.
[00:46:53] Mark Gober: It’s known as motivated reasoning. That’s one of the psychological terms to justify their position. So let’s take a vaccination as an example. I mean, you mentioned some of the data that’s coming out. Dr. Naomi Wolf and her, her group of many volunteers recently published a book, uh, Pfizer Wanted, or the f d a wanted, uh, Pfizer’s documents to be hidden for 75 years.
[00:47:13] Mark Gober: And the court said, no, you gotta release these documents. So Dr. Wolf and her, her colleagues analyzed the data. It’s now out in ebook and they show there’s all sorts of stuff that was not told to the public. So at the very least, You didn’t have fully informed consent and there’s a lot worse stuff there.
[00:47:28] Mark Gober: Um, but with regard to vaccines, people could say, well, yeah, the vaccines came out and yeah, there have been some side effects, but look, we’re kind of out of covid. They can do this correlation, causation thing and like, yeah, we needed the vaccines. That’s one example out of many. You can always try to create a rationale and that’s what I see happen.
[00:47:45] Mark Gober: It’s like this mental gymnastics that always occurs to try to, , try to remove the possibility that we’re being actively deceived.
[00:47:52] Alex Tsakiris: , , there’s, there’s so many points. , I’d love to talk about the, the, the post, , materialist, , kind of, uh, deception there, cuz you’ve put your finger on something that I, I never get a chance to talk about.
[00:48:03] Alex Tsakiris: We’ll have to do it now. . But, you know, what’s kind of funny to me is a, and that’s where I think Lex Friedman is a really interesting guy, and I think his heart is totally in the right place, but I think he’s totally missing the point. But they’re tying it to AI now, you know, again and again, it’s like, oh, it’s great.
[00:48:18] Alex Tsakiris: You know, they’re . You can be non-dual and you can get past, , materialism and it’s ai cuz that’s, you know, and it’s like, Bro, you kind of missed the whole boat there. The point is that consciousness is, is proven to be outside of space time. Silicone computers, AI is my definition in space time.
[00:48:40] Alex Tsakiris: You’re trying to make one of these leaps. You’re trying to do one of these global warming thing, just say it and never have to show any, any reason or logic for it. You know, I, I just think it’s, it’s really, really strange to see the game, the game it’s played. And then I don’t know if we’re gonna be able to spin all this back together because all that relates back to me, to the very first point you made in this section about what is behind that.
[00:49:10] Alex Tsakiris: What is the Satanic Luciferian Promethean drive to control, to control, to want, to control, to dominate for only for the sake of that, you know, that’s, That’s what I think really troubles you and I about this from an evil standpoint. And I
[00:49:34] Mark Gober: think for many people it’s hard to relate to how troubled we are because many people I’m finding have not looked at the really, really dark stuff.
[00:49:42] Mark Gober: If you listen to the survivor stories, you interviewed Anika Lucas, she has a new book out, which when I read these survivor stories for some reason I can’t stop reading them. They’re complete page turners, even though it’s horrific. Like you just wanna understand this dark mentality. And that’s why I start, I probably overshot the evil in the beginning because that’s where my mind goes.
[00:49:59] Mark Gober: We have some extreme examples of, of the most evil, at least I’ve come across, of wanting to violate another human or another living being to just torture something. Where does that come from? It seems so counter to this benevolence. So trying to understand where that comes from because it exists and that’s the key that it exists.
[00:50:15] Mark Gober: Even though we’re in a non-dual reality, there is this dark light too. We can’t ignore that. So, And,
[00:50:21] Alex Tsakiris: and just interject because I want you to pick up on this as you pointed out. And this is like, so important. And then we’ll tie it back to, uh, Klaus Schwab. It’s, you wanna trace the history on this? This goes way back, man.
[00:50:33] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. This ain’t no, uh, Nazis invented it kind of thing. No, no, no, no. It goes way, way back. .
[00:50:41] Mark Gober: Yeah, I mean there’s stories about sacrifice in the Bible, the Aztecs, and then if you wanna look at some of the scriptures, the na hama scriptures, my mind keeps going back to those. So these were found in 1945 in a jar in Egypt bound books that were written in the second, third, fourth century ad approximately translated to English in the late 1970s.
[00:51:00] Mark Gober: So somewhat new. And they talk about origin stories, they talk about a lot of other stuff too, with regard to Jesus and things like that. But I’ve honed in on the origin stories of like, you know, cuz I wanna understand what are we doing here? And so it’s interesting to see, oh wow, they, um, these were heretical teachings apparently that the, the people who believed in it had to hide this stuff in a jar.
[00:51:17] Mark Gober: Why did they have to hide it so that it goes something like this? My understanding of some of the stories, and so there’s the secret gospel of John, there’s another one called on the Origin of the World, and another called the Nature of the Rulers. And they talk about a similar cosmology that there was one so oneness.
[00:51:33] Mark Gober: And to me that aligns with my metaphysics of non-duality. But then there were individuations that spawned off of that one. They called them in one of the books, the Luminaries. And from one of those luminaries there was a being named Sophia. And Sophia had a rogue son known as the Demiurge. Debe goes by different names.
[00:51:48] Mark Gober: And that rogue son created a realm in which the humans exist and the humans have the divine spark that connects to the outside of that realm, the oneness. But the humans were kept in a state of ignorance. They, they used the term, the imprisonment of humanity. And a quote, I think I mentioned this in a prior interview, but I’ll say it again cuz it’s so profound, like it goes something like this.
[00:52:08] Mark Gober: , the rulers threw humanity into a state of confusion and toil so that they would be distracted with the things of the world and not have the time to be occupied with the Holy Spirit. So if you think about that sort of a cosmology. It just lines up, the data lines up, that there’s some kind of a suppression of humanity by darker forces that exist within the overall benevolence that we are trying to transcend.
[00:52:32] Mark Gober: And that just rings true to me with when we see all this happening in the world. And probably what motivates me to write these books, especially when I see the great reset, I see the metaphysical threat. If this stuff goes in the most negative direction possible, the suppression of humanity, the suppression of our own divinity, both in terms of the information we’re exposed to, but possibly genetically with transhumanism altering.
[00:52:53] Mark Gober: D n A. What does that mean? Merging humans with a ai, what does that mean in terms of possibly suppressing our spirituality? That’s how I look at it.
[00:53:01] Alex Tsakiris: I’m with you. I just, I, I, I’m gonna look at the, I’m gonna look at the, that lens of history as more of a glass hef full. The light is always shining. Somehow or another, the, the light continues to shine through the darkness in a way that makes you think that that is part of the job, of this play that we’re all in.
[00:53:22] Alex Tsakiris: Let’s tie it back to, cause I think this is super relevant to the conversation we’re having about the great reset, , , it, it’s about the, the town of Raven where, uh, Klaus Schwab is from. And if you look at, uh, you’ve referenced that Johnny did this kind of very, very impressive investigative journalistic tracing of his background, right? Because it’s almost important, impossible to find.
[00:53:48] Alex Tsakiris: Schwab is a super common German name. There’s a whole schwabb in area of Germany, you know, but he did it and he, and he found out where he is from. And a couple things emerged from that. And one you can hear on the, the Greg Carwood on the higher side chats kind of brought this up. And other people have said it in the, in the conspiracy community, but it doesn’t get much play is.
[00:54:09] Alex Tsakiris: Uh, clearly there’s Jewish ancestry in, uh, Klaus Schwab’s, uh, background doesn’t mean that he’s necessarily Jewish, but I think it’s like his grandfather was married to a Jewish woman, or, you know, second marriage of, and there’s these names that are very, very Jewish. I think none of that stuff matters in the least, in the least, but it matters to a lot of people and it matters if you’re in that timeframe.
[00:54:33] Alex Tsakiris: In Germany, in terms of. But you wanna scrub your, your background. So that’s the way that it matters to me. And it particularly matters in this place that they’re in Raven, where Klaus Schwab is from because they have this like incredible, insane. Anti-Semitic past, going back to like the 13th century, and they throw all the Jews out and they make it against the law for a Jewish person to ever walk into town.
[00:55:02] Alex Tsakiris: And then they accuse him of this thing called blood libel. And I think this relates right back to our story. They say, these dirty Jews, you know what they’re doing. They’re getting together and they have these rituals where they get these kids and they sacrifice these kids. So they’re, they’re completely fabricating this thing.
[00:55:22] Alex Tsakiris: How are they doing it? They’re doing it in a way that resonates with this dark evil that we know exists. We know for hundreds of years, for thousands of years, kids have been sacrificed. They’ve taken ’em right out of the mother’s arms and gone and killed them for some reason. And it just gets us at the deepest level.
[00:55:40] Alex Tsakiris: It’s kind of like this. Darkest, darkest thing. And they do that. And the Nazis reboot that too. That becomes part of their, uh, accusation against the Jews. So what, what really I thought was, was so interesting about all that is how it relates to what we’re really talking about in terms of evil, but also how I think we’re getting the narrative wrong.
[00:56:08] Alex Tsakiris: Cuz the, the thing you most often hear about Klaus Schwab, and unfortunately this is the conclusion I heard from, uh, Johnny Edmore, is that he’s a Nazi and, uh, there’s like some evidence that clearly his father who is.
[00:56:23] Alex Tsakiris: Running this very successful is running this turbine plant that becomes, uh, key to the Nazi business infrastructure, but it’s like a large manufacturing plant. Back then in Germany, you know, the Nazis take over. What are you gonna do? You got . You, you either can fold up the whole thing and they can kill you and put somebody else in there, or you keep making the turbines and that’s what he does.
[00:56:47] Alex Tsakiris: But I think there’s, there’s been this kind of underlying current about Klaus Schwab that he was somehow a Nazi. There’s no evidence for that. The evidence instead is that, back to tying back to another thing that he’s Henry Kissinger, he gets picked by Henry Kissinger to come to Harvard and be in the Young Global Leaders program.
[00:57:08] Alex Tsakiris: Number one run by the cia, which says, We wanna get the best global leaders in the world and we wanna indoctrinate them with the C I A Make America Empire great again thing. And that becomes, that’s becomes Klaus Schwab’s lens to the world. And when he goes back to uh, Germany and he takes over his father’s plant, that becomes his lens.
[00:57:41] Alex Tsakiris: And where I take that is that, I have to wonder, it was a long, long, and I appreciate you, just let me talk this out cuz that’s what I feel like I’m doing here or we’re doing together. But that’s kind of the part that makes me a little bit less scared of this whole thing because at some level it starts looking like.
[00:58:01] Alex Tsakiris: A CIA operation that we’ve, we may not like or we may not be in favor of for all the reasons that we said, but we’re sure as hell familiar with it.
[00:58:12] Mark Gober: So a few things, taking notes here. I wanna piggyback off of your glass half full with regard to the non-commodity scriptures. They end in a, on a positive light, and I mentioned this in my contact book, they say that the light ultimately prevails in spite of the darkness.
[00:58:25] Mark Gober: But going back to your other points about Kissinger and, and Klaus Schwab and all that. You’re pointing to something a, a broader phenomenon. I’m seeing a lot in the, let’s just call it the community of people seeking the truth, who are looking at various conspiracies is, is drawing inferences off of two little, two little data.
[00:58:44] Mark Gober: Like when seeing the two things are somewhat connected and then saying, oh, these people are automatically conspiring. Or Klaus Schwab has a Nazi background and therefore he is a Nazi drawing that therefore too quickly. That’s something that happens very often and I personally, I mean there’s a tendency to wanna do that.
[00:59:01] Mark Gober: We don’t have incomplete information, but we have to be really careful about drawing those conclusions. Now with regard to your comment about not being worried about the Great Reset because maybe it is a CIA op at its core, um, my concern goes back to what I said before. I’m less concerned about the evil from the Great Reset itself.
[00:59:19] Mark Gober: I’m more concerned about the good people who are gonna support. More control and how darkness can spiral within that when you have centralized power. So to me it’s, it’s more about a, a direction for society, whether we call it the Great Reset or something else, whether it’s CIA or something else. It has the hallmarks to me of potential darkness because it’s about control and that’s where it leads.
[00:59:44] Mark Gober: So that’s where I’m, in some ways, I share your optimism in that it’s not like maybe this Grand Satanic plan at its core, like explicitly, but it could turn into that because the ideology lends itself to those sorts of things. And then we come back to our, our prior discussion about good people falling for it.
[01:00:01] Mark Gober: And that’s where I just, I can’t get outta that loop as where we’re having this conversation right now. That’s like my current obsession is, is the good people who aren’t seeing it. So that, that, that still is a risk to me.
[01:00:11] Alex Tsakiris: I think that’s really interesting. We are going around, but I think every time we go around, we’re hooking onto a new piece of it.
[01:00:17] Alex Tsakiris: Mm-hmm. , because I’m gonna go around to it and. Latch onto what you said about compassion, because I think to whatever extent this journey that we’re on down here in this space time is about, uh, anything from a lesson standpoint, it’s about how to be compassionate and how to be compassionate in the face of all the complexities that we’re talking about.
[01:00:41] Alex Tsakiris: And that’s what I think you’re trying to kind of suss out in a, in a really, uh, in a really good way. And that’s, so how that I think applies here is, I’d come back to this thing if someone explained it to you in terms of. Kind of a global politics thing. And that’s why I think the Putin thing and the Russia thing is so interesting cuz he was in the club, right?
[01:01:06] Alex Tsakiris: Like you said, he was a young global leader. He scratched, he, he’s now attempted to be erased from that part of the world economic form cuz he’s not exactly doing what they want right now. So if we look at it from a, a global world political standpoint, it has these different nuanced points that we return to, which is like, Hey Mark, look, you don’t want Russia to win and you don’t want China to win.
[01:01:39] Alex Tsakiris: So this is the chess move, mark. This is how we go because. If you, if you just, and again, you can’t help but be condescending, uh, bec to to the masses because that’s where you get when you have these conversations. But that same guy says, cuz look, you know that people are easily manipulated and you know that that whole commi thing is very attractive to people.
[01:02:04] Alex Tsakiris: So what we’re gonna do is kind of co-opt it and one up it, we’re gonna call it universal basic income. We’re gonna call it, you know, protect your, protect the environment. We’re gonna call it protect your, your, your safety. And we’re gonna do that as a stop gap because otherwise, this comedy thing we already know.
[01:02:29] Alex Tsakiris: It looks, it looks attractive to people. So this is, this is our chess move. Mark, what do you think?
[01:02:34] Mark Gober: I don’t like it. I don’t know if this is what you’re asking, but this is where my mind goes. As I was listening to you talk, I’m asking myself, how is it that metaphysical evil manifests in our world?
[01:02:46] Mark Gober: Because it seems like it can manifest in multiple ways. It can manifest through this rationalization that you’re describing of, well, the ends justify the means. It’s all for good. It can manifest in the explicit through just murder and torture and things like that. But how is it getting into our consciousness?
[01:03:01] Mark Gober: So going back to post materialism, the brain doesn’t create consciousness. Is the brain like an antenna or a filtering mechanism that’s processing something? And you Helena’s book, the Science of Channelings is talking about this, that we’re picking stuff up from other realms in terms of where our thoughts are coming from.
[01:03:17] Mark Gober: So where do these creative ideas come from that you’re talking about universal basic income, these chess moves. What is the source of that and to what extent is the individual in control of those thoughts that come in? I mean, to me, I think we have control over. What we do with the thoughts for sure. But are there ways of strengthening the mind or having a certain intention such that those potentially deceptive thoughts aren’t entering as
[01:03:42] Alex Tsakiris: frequently?
[01:03:43] Alex Tsakiris: Brother, that is so next level, but it’s really, really where my heart is at too. I’ll bounce something else off you,
[01:03:53] Alex Tsakiris: This is true for me. And tell me if this resonates with you. When the truth comes through somebody and their intent is truly with the benevolent, with the, the light, it just. Boom, it just comes through like a, like a lightning bolt. It’s just obvious that that’s where they’re coming from and the deceptive always has a little bit of a different flavor to it.
[01:04:20] Alex Tsakiris: Hmm. I can’t think of many times when I’ve really been completely deceived by someone who, and, I think we have this intuitive, deep sense of knowing what’s true, and we have a lot of evidence for that. Not waking up in people and being drawn into cults or being drawn into following the wrong things.
[01:04:42] Alex Tsakiris: But I think in the same way that you’re talking about it, quite beautifully about building up that, that inner strength and attuning ourselves to the light, I think it gives us a better ability to tune into people who maybe are in this power position, who are of the light. What do you think about that?
[01:05:01] Mark Gober: Hmm. I, I think you’re talking about building a muscle. We all have it innately, but the extent to which we use it has to be developed, I think. Um, and I’m just saying that based on data points in my life of people who seem to have a lot of truth in certain ways, but then in other ways aren’t seeing the full picture.
[01:05:19] Mark Gober: So it’s like there’s, there’s a blockage and this is probably where spiritual practice ultimately comes in. Um, I, I often refer back to Ken Wilbur’s framework, and I talk about in, in this new book, and to the upside down reset as well, waking up, cleaning up and growing up. I’m thinking about cleaning up in particular of working on our own inner darkness and trauma that’s unhealed to transmute that because maybe it makes our antenna, so to speak, get a, , a clear picture.
[01:05:46] Mark Gober: Like we get less noise, more signal that way, and therefore our inner discernment is able to come out more. So it might be, this is just me speculating that a lack of discernment is a lack of inner work. It’s a manifestation of a lack of inner work in some way.
[01:06:01] Alex Tsakiris: I think that’s, profound. Let’s apply that, , Wilbur, , methodology, which I think is great too.
[01:06:08] Alex Tsakiris: Let’s apply it to these two kind of cornerstone agendas that are being pushed. One is global warming and the other is , viruses, uh, vaccines kind of thing. You know, what’s the waking up, what’s the cleaning up and what’s the growing up? .
[01:06:32] Mark Gober: Okay. Let’s say it’s waking up to the truth to some degree.
[01:06:36] Alex Tsakiris: , to some body of facts that we can look at in using like, scientific method, reason, logic, and say, wow, it’s kind of pretty hard not to, not to say that, you know?
[01:06:48] Mark Gober: Okay. And then cleaning up is, Looking at the darkness that might be there and transmuting it. So that’s an acknowledgement of the darkness.
[01:06:57] Mark Gober: And then growing up is about typically maturation, personal responsibility and accepting reality as it is not looking at things with rose colored glasses. So all these things are somewhat interrelated, but they’re, they can be regarded as distinct too. There’s a fourth one too, which I think we should include here.
[01:07:11] Mark Gober: And I included in this new book Showing Up that Wilbur talks about waking up, cleaning up, growing up, and showing up. He calls them lines of development, meaning that you could be highly elevated in one area, but maybe not in the others. And he talks about a collect, uh, a comprehensive, holistic type of evolution that’s not just one of those categories, but all of them.
[01:07:29] Alex Tsakiris: And we will not. Talk about how that might apply or not apply to Ken Wilbur at different times in his life. But that’s doesn’t matter either
[01:07:38] Mark Gober: cuz it’s exactly . Well, this is one of the big challenges too, is trying to take the good from what you see in various people that know human is perfect. You could focus on the negatives exclusively on everyone and then just dismiss everything.
[01:07:49] Mark Gober: But I try to take the, the beneficial things that have been helpful to me in my journey. Absolutely. So, all right, so, so let’s talk about climate and vaccines with regard to these things. , ,
[01:08:01] Alex Tsakiris: let me interject again. Sure. And, and the, the reason that this is particularly relevant to the end of the upside down reset is that as usual, mark has provided you an incredible collection of, uh, footnotes, links, references to real stuff, real data, real waking up stuff.
[01:08:23] Alex Tsakiris: And a lot of it relates to climate and a lot of it relates to vaccines. So we’re not going outside of the, the, by this book, get this book, because it will give you that. You can go get a number of other places, but it’s in here. Okay. So with
[01:08:39] Mark Gober: regard to climate, this, this was actually the first book where I, I went deep into it.
[01:08:42] Mark Gober: It’s not a topic that. Wasn’t, it felt like I was an expert in, but in my Liberty book, my third book, I did mention Project Veritas has undercover footage of the technical director at c n talking about a number of things. But he talked about climate as well. So that was my first, uh, like red flag that went up a few years ago.
[01:09:03] Mark Gober: And he said, look, right now, this was April, 2021. That’s when the footage was taken. He didn’t know he was being recorded at the time. He said, right now Covid is big, but that that’s gonna end. And we’re being told by the head of the company that we need to focus on climate next because fear sells and climate’s got longevity.
[01:09:22] Mark Gober: So we’re gonna be focusing on ways to keep people in fear. I’m paraphrasing it in my book. I’ve got the exact quotes. You can go on Project Veritas website and listen to his word saying this sort of thing. So this might be actually more of a cleaning up with regard to climate, the notion that we’re not being told the truth because there is an agenda.
[01:09:40] Mark Gober: Behind it.
[01:09:41] Alex Tsakiris: I think that is cleaning up, so we’ll move it over to that category. But it’s an awesome example. Go back cuz in the book you also have the waking up, just the data. It’s like, like I was telling Bernardo, uh, you know, you think that the Netherlands is gonna be underwater. They’ve been measuring , high tide, low tide, and it’s not hard to do.
[01:10:04] Alex Tsakiris: Right? I mean, it’s something that they could do for the last hundred years and do very, very effectively. They’ve done it. What does that data tell us?
[01:10:13] Mark Gober: Long story short, a lot of what we’re being told about the imminent catastrophe is, is question. I mean, I’m, I’m being mild about it there, um, from, from many angles.
[01:10:23] Mark Gober: And I think part of the waking up is to realize that we don’t have two sides of the debate very often. And it, it parallels consciousness science where you’re allowed to say certain things. And if you go outside of the narrative, then you’re a pseudo scientist, you’re a sche, you’re, you’re not allowed in.
[01:10:38] Mark Gober: So we see, uh, Dr. Judith Curry, who was the head of climate science at Georgia Tech, and she started to speak out, and I wrote this in my book. She said they basically finished me off and she has a new book coming out, which I’ll be interested to read. And she’s speaking out against the, the prevailing.
[01:10:52] Mark Gober: Narrative. Uh, she also references the climate, gay emails, which point to some of this deception, maybe also this is in cleaning up, but that there we’re not being told the full story here. And they talk about hiding the decline, which many have interpreted to mean hiding the decline in temperatures, which will go against the prevailing narrative.
[01:11:09] Mark Gober: But I, I think part of the waking up is to acknowledge that there are dissenting voices out there that are really smart. I mean, I also referenced Steven Kunan in my book, who was in the energy department under Obama. He wrote this new book called Unsettled. He was the provost at Caltech physicist, and he wrote this book where he just says, look, we don’t know for sure we can’t take this fully catastrophic position because there’s data that counteracts the narrative and the point that he makes, which others make, including Charles Eisenstein.
[01:11:34] Mark Gober: He says, look, I’m a, I’ve got a PhD in. And I’m trying to understand some of this data and I can’t even come to a conclusion on some of it. Um, and that’s what koonin points to as well, that some of this stuff is really sophisticated and what we hear from the media or from even some of the experts is like their interpretation of a summary report of something and actually getting to that core data of the, of the real stuff.
[01:11:56] Mark Gober: It, it’s multiple steps removed from where the public is. So I think waking up to that fact is really critical for just an everyday person looking at this very important issue that is being talked about everywhere. It’s presented to us as incontrovertible fact that unless we do X, Y, and Z, we know that we’re headed for mass extinction.
[01:12:15] Mark Gober: That that’s the catastrophic narrative that we’re getting. And that might not be true, to put it mildly.
[01:12:21] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. And, and I’d almost take a different, uh, cut at it because , the first problem with the data that you’re alluding to is you gotta go what data? There’s a lot of data out there.
[01:12:33] Alex Tsakiris: Which data am I looking at? And the data in this case is the data that would suggest that humans are, having a catastrophic impact on the warming of the planet. So that’s number one. And that by taking certain policy measures, we can reverse that. I think anyone who breaks that down and pursues that will , come out to the conclusion that that’s just has not been proven.
[01:13:06] Alex Tsakiris: And if anything, the evidence is stronger for the counterargument. Alls you would have to do to kind of falsify that is to say , , the null hypothesis is , there isn’t substantial evidence that humans are having a catastrophic impact on, climate warming.
[01:13:23] Alex Tsakiris: Cuz let’s not forget that’s what this whole thing is about. So that, that’s number one. And then number two, I mean, you can kind of take it too, but I, I, I always, you know, ju Judith Curry, who by the way, you know, I just mentioned the sea level rise, which is all you really have to look at, right? The ice and the glass melts and the sea level rises.
[01:13:42] Alex Tsakiris: You can look at one, one factor. Are the sea levels rising? If they are, then there’s warming. If there’s not, then they’re not. And she’s done the most thorough scientific analysis of that just a couple years ago and her conclusion. Published peer reviewed, very highly regarded to climatologists is no, there just isn’t any evidence for it.
[01:14:04] Alex Tsakiris: So, , the other thing , that I, I see she just gets flustered and agitated about is that, and again, you can, this is data, you can just go track this down for yourself. If we implemented all the policies that the Schwab and all the globalists want, there is no evidence that that would lead to any significant reduction in what is already a minuscule contribution to global warming.
[01:14:36] Mark Gober: Yeah, you, you broke it down into two great categories, human impact and policy. And these are assumptions that are often taken for granted. The, the extent of human impact on the climate, number one. And two, that we have policies because we’re so enlightened that will correct this. So the first one with regard to human impact, it’s just there are so many variables involved and you all, you don’t, rare you don’t hear them talked about.
[01:14:56] Mark Gober: I mean, climate is a very complex thing. And I do talk about this in the book, the, uh, inadequacy of models as well. Um, going back to the meteorologist Lorenz, oh, oh, this goes back to chaos theory. He altered his model by a decimal point and it got a wildly different. Uh, outcome by having one thing off by a decimal.
[01:15:16] Mark Gober: So climate is extremely complex. And when you have all these variables and models, what if you just changed one by a little bit? You could end up with a very different result. So that’s always important to keep in mind. It’s just not talked about. There’s this, to use Michael Shellenberger terminology, he wrote a book called Apocalypse Never.
[01:15:30] Mark Gober: He was, um, more on the, let’s call it the, the pro-human impact climate change. He was more mainstream and he’s switched since then. He says it’s false precision that we have with these models. So that’s important to keep in mind, but it all, that also applies to the policy issues because we’re pr making projections about the future with a very complex thing.
[01:15:49] Mark Gober: Climate, how many, I mean, there’s the sun, there’s geothermal stuff, there are lots of thi things being put in the atmosphere, whether it’s CO2 and other things. There’s just a million variables you could come up with. And who knows on a metaphysical level how all this works too. I always think about that.
[01:16:02] Mark Gober: The really invisible stuff that we don’t even understand. We don’t understand dark matter and dark energy. Um, but my point is there are a lot of variables that aren’t talked about, so that goes with making projections about the future. We saw this in Covid. There were projections of this many people are gonna die, Imperial College London.
[01:16:18] Mark Gober: And policy was made based off of those predict predictions and assumptions, and they turned out to be, to be very wrong, they overshot a number of deaths. And what happened? Liberties were taken away. People’s bus livelihoods were altered. Mental health was affected based on the predictions of a few people.
[01:16:35] Alex Tsakiris: And, and the other place that I thought you were gonna go, that I don’t hear a lot of people talk about, and I think you were going there, is that there are all sorts of variables associated with the policies and the implementation of those policies. So you can draw up on a piece of paper how you will roll this out.
[01:16:53] Alex Tsakiris: so then how, how then do we move to cleaning up? Because you already, you already dropped a couple of ’em on there.
[01:16:59] Alex Tsakiris: Cuz for people like you and I who have been through it, a lot of times you jump right to the cleanup thing, like, how could they do climate gate and how do people not just see this? Cuz sometimes they’ll, they’ll reverse climate gate and they’ll say, that didn’t really happen. If you, if you talk to Chad g p t and ask ’em about Clate, they go, oh, they were all, uh, that none of ’em did anything.
[01:17:18] Alex Tsakiris: If you really investigate it, you find the opposite is true. It was one of the, the most egregious examples of scientific fraud that, that we kind of
[01:17:27] Mark Gober: know of. But it’s sort of like the Twitter files. People are saying, oh, it’s a non-issue. The media isn’t covering it, and it’s just explicit government collusion to shut down narratives and to steer information.
[01:17:38] Mark Gober: So it’s, it’s kind of the same playbook that we’re seeing over and over again in different areas. And that’s where I, to me, it’s just the pattern recognition comes in as someone who’s not a climate scientist per se, but I’ve seen this movie before in other areas. So my red flags, the red flags are all over the place with this.
[01:17:53] Mark Gober: And, um, and then you look, so now in the cleaning up, we see what the c n n technical director said very explicitly. So he wasn’t making a statement about climate science itself. He was talking about how it would be used. It’s sort of like covid, did people die? Did people get sick? Was there tragedy from it?
[01:18:08] Mark Gober: Absolutely. But there seems to be this pattern where it’s like, if there’s a problem, then the authorities therefore has have the ability to do whatever they want because they’re, this problem exists. So that, that to me is where climate seems to be heading, where, okay, we’ve got this big crisis, global crisis.
[01:18:23] Mark Gober: We therefore get to tell you everything you’re gonna be doing in terms of where, how you’re. Your transportation, what you eat and so forth. So the cleaning up is to acknowledge all of that, that that crisis or the perception of crisis can be weaponized and has been weaponized historically. And to acknowledge that darkness exists within all the stuff.
[01:18:44] Mark Gober: It’s not just the benevolence of, oh, we wanna save the planet. We’re all interconnected. Look at all the biodiversity loss. I mean, that’s the kind of argumentation you hear, um, we’re, we are spiritual people, therefore we gotta help the environment. And these people are saying, we gotta do this to help the climate, therefore we’re gonna do it.
[01:18:59] Mark Gober: It misses the cleaning up to me, it misses the potential deception. Yeah.
[01:19:03] Alex Tsakiris: And, and I think it also kind of naturally flows into the growing up because I think the growing up is all about the deception, all about the metaphysical, all about how that darkness is entering into.
[01:19:19] Alex Tsakiris: Not just our world, but us into our thoughts, into our actions, into what we do it. That’s how I understand growing up. Uh, do you agree?
[01:19:30] Mark Gober: Yeah. And it’s acknowledging that the world doesn’t work in such a pleasant way as we might like it to be. That this, this kind of deception exists and we have to accept it even though many people are very good that, that other, that other people who are not you would want to deceive you.
[01:19:48] Mark Gober: There could, there’s a psychological incentive to not wanting to believe those things because it’s much more comforting to think we live in a, in a world where no one’s gonna do that for these major global issues. No, they wouldn’t deceive us. That would be horrific to me, that’s the growing up with this.
[01:20:02] Alex Tsakiris: I, I think the other part of growing up with this is something you talked about before, and I, I, I, again, I, I so love and respect the way you interweave these things together. It’s about the personal growing up and the personal realizing that that shadow is my shadow. I can’t just project it out on the world and all these evil people in Davos.
[01:20:25] Alex Tsakiris: It’s, it’s me. It’s when I sit alone, why can’t I be happy and still, and why can’t the lightness always shine through from me? And why do I do things that I don’t think are, are positive in the world? And is that, you know, is that in a small way? What’s going on on this larger scale too. And, and only when we’re able to really look at that, look at that shadow, do I think we even have a chance of growing up?
[01:20:55] Alex Tsakiris: What do you think? Mm-hmm. .
[01:20:56] Mark Gober: Well, I do think it starts with the individual, and maybe this goes back to our earlier discussion about the ability to discern. Once you’ve started to clean it up on your own, then you can perceive the deception a bit better. on a, on a collective level, the cleaning up, that’s more challenging because we can’t control other people’s behavior.
[01:21:11] Mark Gober: We, they, you have to wanna do it yourself. I think what we’re doing by having this conversation and what you do in your podcast and what I try to do with my books is to, give people more information and ways of thinking about things so that they might be more inclined to want to clean up and they might be more inclined to wanna look at things.
[01:21:27] Mark Gober: So, but it starts with you. It starts with the individual. You clean yourself up, and then I think as a byproduct, then you end up positively impacting others. And,
[01:21:38] Alex Tsakiris: and, and do you wind up growing up or do you have to make that explicit growing up? Cuz one of the things I respect about the Wilbur a little bit that I’ve, I’ve kind of read into this, is that he really gets to the growing up part.
[01:21:51] Alex Tsakiris: And, and I think he kind of stresses as I remember it, is, this is the hard part really for a lot of us. We can kind of get through the, other two, but we get to Okay. No I cuz it’s about change, right? Mm-hmm. , what do
[01:22:04] Mark Gober: you think? Yeah, well, personal responsibility versus victimhood, that’s maybe the crux of it, of growing up.
[01:22:11] Mark Gober: And that takes energy, it takes a willingness to go there in a, in a way that might be uncomfortable to think that you are the one that is ultimately responsible rather than mommy and daddy government or the experts, the technocrats who are gonna tell us what to do. So that’s where, like we talked about last time, this idea of toughness and strength.
[01:22:31] Mark Gober: is really critical. Uh, because if not, then you’re just gonna go with wherever society’s leading you and just assuming that everyone’s gonna take care of you. And that historically would tell you is, is not a good assumption to make.
[01:22:42] Alex Tsakiris: And then let’s finally talk about showing up, because I think showing up , has an interesting interplay with growing up because we can grow up and then decide that, okay, so I got my shit together, I don’t need anybody else.
[01:23:00] Mark Gober: Yep. And that’s why I included this with regard to not only climate, but the great reset generally is you could be, you could do your waking up, cleaning up and growing up and say, all right, I’m good. I’m enlightened. I’m a comprehensively evolved person, so I’m just gonna be passive. And I don’t resonate with that at all.
[01:23:18] Mark Gober: The more I look at this and I, I, I’m so sensitized to this be going back to my earlier point in the non-dual community, I see this tendency of it’s all one, that’s the ultimate reality and therefore I can just do nothing. And I’m gonna repeat a story. I can’t remember if I told you on a past interview, this is, this was a pivotal point for me in my own development, David Hawkins talking about ramen and Maharshi.
[01:23:41] Mark Gober: Ramen and Maharshi said, the world that we see doesn’t exist. And Hawkins said, yep, that’s right. At some level of reality. And, and Ramen and Maharshi is operating at that level of reality. But Hawkins, who himself allegedly got to those sorts of states, he came back into the world. He said, because there’s a lot of suffering in the world.
[01:23:56] Mark Gober: Even though Maharshi’s correct, the people who are suffering are not operating at that level. That there is no world to them. The suffering is very much real. So Hawkins said it would be therefore be a spiritual error to ignore the suffering of others in spite of the fact that we exist within a non-dual reality.
[01:24:11] Mark Gober: And to me, that points toward, uh, the idea that we need to be active. To try to alleviate the suffering of others. And that’s where showing up comes into play. It can manifest in many different ways. It can manifest in terms of presenting information. It can manifest in terms of caring for other people.
[01:24:26] Mark Gober: But in terms of the great reset, I think it’s about resistance. It’s about actively saying no and setting boundaries to things that we perceive to be evil. And I’ll, I’ll quote, uh, Seth Dylan, who’s the head of Babylon B, which is a satirical news outlet. And it’s pretty funny because a lot of their headlines from a few years ago, which were satirical, have turned out to be real headlines in the modern era.
[01:24:48] Mark Gober: And he, he makes the point that, uh, some, I’m paraphrasing him, some people think that we are. Becoming a better society because we’re more tolerant of, of things and we’re not making fun of, of things that are happening. He goes, I think we’re more depraved than ever because we’re not standing up to things that we should be standing up to.
[01:25:05] Mark Gober: So it’s this very tricky notion of tolerance and going back to the weaponization of compassion. Sometimes we shouldn’t be tolerant, we shouldn’t be tolerant of things that are evil and someone with a very benevolent intent who wants to go for the common good. We’re all interconnected. It’s all about love, it’s all tolerance all the time.
[01:25:20] Mark Gober: But sometimes we need to set boundaries, and that’s where showing up comes in.
[01:25:24] Alex Tsakiris: I love that. Mark. I take two other directions on that as we start to wrap it up is w The other thing that resonates with me is the complexity of being an American, being usa. Usa because what we’re striving for here is, has been laid out before.
[01:25:43] Alex Tsakiris: Has been, has been taught to us in our lessons from our history of our country, which is if you don’t talk up, if you don’t speak up, it doesn’t get done. It is your job to keep this republic in line because we realize how tenuous this whole thing is. And it does, it is held together with, you know, chewing gum and wax or whatever the oldie kind of expression is.
[01:26:09] Alex Tsakiris: It’s our job. It’s our job to talk about it and do it. And the other thing I match that with is, is a story that I’ve repeated. You know, I don’t know that you repeated that last one. I, I think I heard that one before from you, but it’s the story I like to tell about Ahma, the hugging saint from India, you know, and she goes and she does all these incredible, gatherings where, you know, people can come and people get, they get a hug, you know, so I’ve, I went to one of ’em in LA and there’s a thousand people, 2000 I think lined up to get a hug.
[01:26:36] Alex Tsakiris: And how this woman, this old woman sits there and hugs for 18 hours a day. I don’t know. But she, she does, and it’s an incredible experience for a lot of people. But one day, one of her devotees comes up and goes, am I, I don’t understand you. You say, uh, that you’re not about this world and yet everything you’re doing, you know, you’re doing all this work.
[01:27:00] Alex Tsakiris: You’re digging latrines in India. You’re unending in the work that you’re doing. Why are you doing so much work for this world? And she says, she’s told to say, we’re told that she says, what world? Mm-hmm. . And to me that is the, the, there’s an aspect of that that I would like, I would like to get to in terms of my spiritual understanding where I don’t have to judge other people in order to judge the right action that I need to take at the time.
[01:27:34] Alex Tsakiris: Yes.
[01:27:35] Mark Gober: So two things. one on judging other people, and let’s just, let’s just say with regard to the fact that we seem to be living in like a, a bifurcated society where some people see one reality, other people see another reality. Some people say, this is good, and other people will see the same thing and say it’s evil.
[01:27:52] Mark Gober: The challenge there, it, it’s not as much from a judgmental perspective that I talk about it, I talk about it from a, a practical perspective. It is difficult to coexist and even have conversations when you’re not looking at the same things. You’re, you’re just talking past each other constantly. So there are practical issues with that, and you can still have compassion for people.
[01:28:11] Mark Gober: Might not see something that you see, that’s fine. Uh, but it doesn’t remove the fact that it’s challenging. And with regard to the Ahma story, I, I think that sums up the attitude that I would like to get to as well, which is really one of non-attachment to outcomes. It’s the idea that she’s doing her duty to the best of her ability, but whatever happens to the world is out of her control.
[01:28:39] Mark Gober: And that, I’ve been asked this a few times actually, like, mark, what do you think is gonna happen with the Great reset? And first of all, I don’t know what’s gonna happen, but in some regard, I don’t care. And that could be taken the wrong way. I, I, I do care. I hope it turns into a, it goes in a positive direction, but that’s not where my focus is.
[01:28:57] Mark Gober: My focus is on, is on what I can do and whether I’m doing the best job I can. The outcome of that is beyond my. So it’s sort of like we just do the best that we can. And I, I harken this back to some of like my tennis days. , as a competitive athlete, if I have a certain strategy, let’s say I’m gonna hit an approach shot to the guy’s backhand.
[01:29:17] Mark Gober: And I know that if I do that nine outta 10 times, I’m gonna get the volley that I want and I’m gonna win the point. But one out of 10 times I might lose, but I’m gonna do it because it’s the right thing, and that’s the right strategy at that point. So you’ve gotta be unattached to what the result is in the end, but it’s different.
[01:29:33] Mark Gober: And Hawkins makes this very important distinction. The diff distinction between non-attachment and detachment. Detachment is about just literally not caring. And that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about caring, but not, not being attached to what the ultimate result.
[01:29:51] Alex Tsakiris: There’s a real nuance to that that I think becomes clear.
[01:29:55] Alex Tsakiris: I love your example of, , the competitive sports analogy, because I think it, we do hear that again and again from athletes, , particularly very elite athletes that are able to detach from the ultimate outcome by focusing really, really intensely on the more immediate outcome of, you’ll hear this in football all the time.
[01:30:18] Alex Tsakiris: It’s like, have that short memory. Just do my assignment on this play, and then when that plays over the next play, just do what I’m supposed to do on this play. And if everyone in the team does that, more often than not, we win.
[01:30:34] Mark Gober: Mm. It’s a compartmentalization. It’s, it’s both. It’s a kind of a paradox. At one level, there’s a compartmentalization of what’s happening in the present time and this immediate task in front of me, but it’s also while holding the bigger picture in mind of the broader objective that it’s fitting into.
[01:30:49] Mark Gober: So we could take this interview as an example. Both of us probably have a vision for our lives to some degree, but right now we’re focused on this conversation. That’s our focus. But it’s when within the context of something bigger. Yes,
[01:31:00] Alex Tsakiris: it is. So this has been awesome. Let me try and turn it into something that people can understand to some extent, and I think they will.
[01:31:10] Alex Tsakiris: They’ve listened so far. I think they’re, they’re in infr, a penny in for a pound. Again, the book you’re gonna wanna check out, you wanna check out several of his books. The three that I have up here are particularly great in my opinion, and end to upside down thinking all about kind of how we got derailed on the consciousness thing, which we’ve talked a lot about on this show. But Mark has a very, he, he just has a very great way of breaking things down and making them understandable and communicating in a way that you’ll get and you’ll feel like, ah, this is something I can pass along to somebody else.
[01:31:47] Alex Tsakiris: And then the other book, an End to Upside Down contact. Again, fantastic. And where he is willing to go with the U F O E T experience is just refreshing cuz few people are, are willing to go all the way there and tie it into all these other things that we’re talking about in terms of spirituality and, and what it means in a bigger sense.
[01:32:11] Alex Tsakiris: And then finally, the book we’ve talked about today and end to the upside down reset. So, , mark, it’s, it’s been great having you on. Tell us what else we should know as we, uh, say goodbye.
[01:32:22] Mark Gober: Well, Alex, I wanna thank you for all of your ongoing support. I really truly appreciate it and thank you for having me on in terms of like, what’s next, uh, well first of all where your viewers and listeners can find me, my website is mark gober.com, m a r k G O B e r.com.
[01:32:37] Mark Gober: And I have five books out. They’re all on Amazon, , Kindle Hard Copy and Audible for all five. And I have a podcast series called Where is My Mind, which is on the idea that consciousness does not come from the brain. So that’s what I’ve been working on for the last. It started in 2016 and now here we are.
[01:32:53] Mark Gober: , I don’t know what’s next. And I feel like I say that every time we talk because I, I literally don’t, I, I didn’t know I was gonna write this new book on the great reset when we talked not long ago. So I’m, I’m just trying to follow where the breadcrumbs lead me. , I’m gonna repeat what I’ve said multiple times before.
[01:33:07] Mark Gober: I’m, I’m stuck on this topic of these like mo different paradigm shifts that people are in and what are the psychological barriers to those various paradigm shifts. Cuz that’s, if we’re thinking about outcomes now, maybe that’s where the outcome is gonna, that’s where the outcome is gonna go one way or the other is whether people can break through those paradigm shifts and, and understanding why people are not and trying to get to the solution to rectify it.
[01:33:32] Alex Tsakiris: Great, mark. Great. All right. Thanks again. It’s been awesome. Thanks.
[01:33:37] Alex Tsakiris: Thanks again to Mark Gober for joining me today on Skeptiko. The one question I tee up from this interview, glass half. Glass half full.
[01:33:47] Alex Tsakiris: How bad is this? Insane? W e f globalist stuff, and in particular, as this show points out, how bad is it through the lens of. All the other bad stuff we’ve lived through and have to embrace as being part of our history. , because I think that’s the lens that I wound up kind of coming back to is like, are we always just gonna point at this timeline now and pretend like all this other stuff hasn’t happened and that we don’t have to kind of contextualize what’s going on in this larger geopolitical world?
[01:34:24] Alex Tsakiris: Unfortunately, I kind of think we do, but let’s hear what you have to say.
[01:34:29] Alex Tsakiris: That’ll do it for this one. Until next time, take care. Bye for now.
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