John Brisson, Finders Cult or Another Epsteinesque Brownstone Op |443|


John Brisson has new information on the Finders Cult and their connection to gov sponsored sexual blackmail.

photo by: Skeptiko

Alex Tsakiris: [00:00:00] Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I’m your host Alex Tsakiris, and as you know, I’m always impressed by independent researchers who managed to make monumental contributions to our understanding of the world, without any institutional support, with barely any financial support, and usually while battling against forces that seek to keep us locked into whatever prevailing narrative they want. I mean, consider today’s guest, John Brisson, and what he brings to this ongoing discussion I’ve been having about the nature of evil.

So I’ll just remind you if you’ve been following along with me on this little journey. You know, I’ve talked to some very legitimate experts on the topic, highly respected religious professors like Jeff Kripal, Hugh Urban, top notch anthropologists like Brian Hayden and Gregory Shushan. These are real legitimate academics who are going to conferences, publishing papers, and are being supported by major institutions, major universities. And you know, I’ve even kicked these ideas around with the likes of Dean Radin and Rupert Sheldrake.

But time and time again, I’ve been disappointed to find that these folks are, I don’t know, they just seem to be unwilling to look at the deep abyss that goes with the data, the compelling data that forces us to confront the reality of some malevolent forces that are in this extended consciousness realm, to put it in, kind of Skeptiko terms.

So back to today’s guest, John Brisson, who runs a YouTube channel called, We’ve Read The Documents, which usually features John reading documents, often secret documents that have been released through FOIA requests. But John is also the author of an upcoming book on The Finders Cult, an organization with not just provable links to satanic ritual abuse, but unfortunately provable, and I’m going to emphasize that word again, provable. He’s got the documents, links to United States intelligence organizations like the CIA and the FBI, who were tapping into this evil in order to compromise foreign diplomats and other, not foreign diplomats, but other individuals they wanted to control through blackmail, through sexual blackmail, and that’s going to be a topic we’re going to talk a great deal about today.

So John and I were just spending one second talking before this, and this is going to be a rough ride for a lot of people. I know a lot of people have already tuned off, they saw the title or whatever, and they’re not going to listen to this. I know in my own personal life, very few people I can talk to about this. People in my family, I can’t talk to about this. They shut down, they just don’t… No matter, you can pile the data wide and high, it don’t matter man. They don’t want to go there.

And that’s what I so appreciate about John and his approach, his methodology, he’s very, very much into following the data, checking his sources, but he’s also willing to go there.

John, it’s great to have you back on Skeptiko, thanks so much for joining me .


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Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I’m your host Alex Tsakiris, and as you know, I’m always impressed by independent researchers who managed to make monumental contributions to our understanding of the worskeptiko-Join-the-Discussion-3ld, without any institutional support, with barely any financial support, and usually while battling against forces that seek to keep us locked into whatever prevailing narrative they want. I mean, consider today’s guest, John Brisson, and what he brings to this ongoing discussion I’ve been having about the nature of evil.

So I’ll just remind you if you’ve been following along with me on this little journey. You know, I’ve talked to some very legitimate experts on the topic, highly respected religious professors like Jeff Kripal, Hugh Urban, top notch anthropologists like Brian Hayden and Gregory Shushan. These are real legitimate academics who are going to conferences, publishing papers, and are being supported by major institutions, major universities. And you know, I’ve even kicked these ideas around with the likes of Dean Radin and Rupert Sheldrake.

But time and time again, I’ve been disappointed to find that these folks are, I don’t know, they just seem to be unwilling to look at the deep abyss that goes with the data, the compelling data that forces us to confront the reality of some malevolent forces that are in this extended consciousness realm, to put it in, kind of Skeptiko terms.

So back to today’s guest, John Brisson, who runs a YouTube channel called, We’ve Read The Documents, which usually features John reading documents, often secret documents that have been released through FOIA requests. But John is also the author of an upcoming book on The Finders Cult, an organization with not just provable links to satanic ritual abuse, but unfortunately provable, and I’m going to emphasize that word again, provable. He’s got the documents, links to United States intelligence organizations like the CIA and the FBI, who were tapping into this evil in order to compromise foreign diplomats and other, not foreign diplomats, but other individuals they wanted to control through blackmail, through sexual blackmail, and that’s going to be a topic we’re going to talk a great deal about today.

So John and I were just spending one second talking before this, and this is going to be a rough ride for a lot of people. I know a lot of people have already tuned off, they saw the title or whatever, and they’re not going to listen to this. I know in my own personal life, very few people I can talk to about this. People in my family, I can’t talk to about this. They shut down, they just don’t… No matter, you can pile the data wide and high, it don’t matter man. They don’t want to go there.

And that’s what I so appreciate about John and his approach, his methodology, he’s very, very much into following the data, checking his sources, but he’s also willing to go there.

John, it’s great to have you back on Skeptiko, thanks so much for joining me and listening to that long introduction.

John Brisson: [00:03:57] Thank you very much for having me back on, Alex. I’m very welcome to come back on Skeptiko and discuss this issue of ritual abuse and government institutions being involved in it and how very actually widespread it is, and we do have documentation.

I know there are many claims that can be made about these different cases, whether it’s the Franklin scandal or McMartin preschool or The Finders, and some are very hard to substantiate in the claims that have been made in these cases. But I do believe, at the bare minimum, with a majority of these cases, that children were abused, at the bare minimum, and at the grand maximum, it was ritual abuse by the highest levels of governments around the world.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:04:50] Now, John, I know where you’re coming from when you say stuff like that, but I almost think that it kind of blurs the message. When we start saying the minimum, the maximum and all this, it’s like, no, what we’re talking about here is unimaginable for most people. And what I think you reveal, and you’ve been a big part of, like I say, I contacted you a couple of months and said, “Hey, I want to dig into this satanic ritual abuse thing, and I want to know if there’s any reality to it.” And it’s funny for me because I’ve encountered…

I did this a couple of years ago. I have it up on the screen, an interview I did with FBI undercover agent Bob Hamer, who on his last project infiltrated, NAMBLA the Man/Boy Love Association, which most of us know from the craziness that they portrayed it in South Park, but it’s a real organization.

I’ve told this story before, but I’ll tell it again. I remember hearing the passion and the emotional anger in this FBI agent’s voice when he said, he was recounting being in New York, in Manhattan, and going on… Again, he’s undercover with these pedophiles and he’s in New York City at ToysRUs and they’re leaning over the rail talking about the violence and sex acts, but also connected with violence, that they want to perpetrate on these kids that they see playing. These are our kids, you’ve got kids, I’ve got kids, my kids are a little bit older now, but these are five year old kids, and the horrible things that these guys want to do.

But at the time, the reason I did that interview was because it was about evil, it was about people who want to deny that evil even exists, and here people are denying that this stuff exists.

But here’s the point, when I came back to you two months ago, I said, “John, I still can’t really get my head around this. Is this really happening? Is satanic ritual abuse against children really something that’s happening? Because when you Google it, the first fricking 100 entries are about satanic panic.

John Brisson: [00:07:18] Yes, they are. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:07:20] And then, tell folks a little bit about the book that you’ve referenced called, The Witch-Hunt Narrative.

John Brisson: [00:07:28] I have it right here in my hand. It was written by Ross E Cheit who is a professor at Brown University.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:07:36] Brown University, Ivy League professor.

John Brisson: [00:07:38] The reason why I wanted to frame it like I do in that, is because it’s so hard for people to realize how evil and how deep this goes, that they’ll label it as a witch hunt, which completely negates the victims of all these cases, that were abused and made it seem like they were not abused at all. He frames it from this too, this book is not conspiratorial at all in the slightest bit. It does not really tackle the ritual sexual abuse side of things, of how dark things and how evil things can get. This book is factually based that the children in the majority of these cases, whether it’s Glendale Montessori school, which is one of the cases that I’m investigating.

I’ve gotten the police department records and the court records about James Toward and how they label his case as satanic panic, but it is obvious from when you read the police report, the court documents that James Toward, he was riding his conviction as well, and that was even upheld by psychiatrists later who said that Toward was likely to offend if he was to be released from prison.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:08:41] Now, hold on, because we’re going to dump so much information on people. I’ve picked through your stuff and again, I have to alert people because we’re going to dip into this. If they go to your channel and they listen to some of the interviews that you’ve done, and you’re writing a book on The Finders Cult, which we’re going to talk about in a minute, which plays into this as well. But I kind of wanted to alert people to the kind of interviews that you do John, because you did an interview with an investigator from this Glendale Montessori case.

 John Brisson: [00:09:22] Yes, Henry Clements.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:09:24] So this is someone who was boots on the ground, called in by law enforcement to investigate this Montessori school, and he finds evidence of satanic ritual abuse. So he finds doors that can only be locked from the outside, and the lock is like eight feet up, so that the kids can’t reach it, or six feet up, I should say. He finds chloroform, he finds all this stuff that the investigators kind of suspected but didn’t find and he finds it and they’re relying on him and he had a kid who went there, and it’s like verified.

And then when you’re referencing back to this book by this Brown University professor, one of the cases that everyone’s heard about is McMartin preschool. Even my wife, who’s a forensic psychologist, she’s bashing me, she goes, “Yeah, like that fake McMartin preschool satanic panic thing. I’m like, go and do it, anyone can do this, go to Amazon and look inside, like you can, you don’t even have to buy the book. He has it documented there. The physicians that did medical exams on the McMartin kids and said, “There’s physical evidence that we normally associate with sexual activity,” on a three and a half year old, and it’s not the parents, because the kid is saying, “It was my teacher.”

So this whole satanic panic thing is an orchestrated lie to pull our attention away from what’s going on.

John Brisson: [00:10:49] I mean, you know, look at Oliver Stone’s directed movie about McMartin preschool with James Woods, it’s all by design. They frame McMartin as it was an expensive trial that never led to a single conviction, therefore Raymond Buckey is innocent, and he never did anything wrong. But when you read The Witch-Hunt Narrative, Ross E Cheit, again, it’s not going to discuss the actual satanic ritual abuse that I believe that went on at McMartin, it’s not going to discuss that per se, but it’s going to discuss the actual forensic evidence that children were molested by Raymond Buckey.

There is enough medical evidence in here to show that Judy Johnson was not some crack-pot alcoholic mother who just started this whole theory to slander the McMartin preschool, that she was driven to alcoholism by people attacking her and slandering her character, which she later died from. The evidence in here directly, Judy Johnson’s son was sodomized by Raymond Buckey.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:11:50] This is a kid who, if I remember right, is three and a half years old and comes home and can’t even verbalize it in sexual terms but is kind of describing these things that are going on at the school and the mom totally flips. But like we’re saying, the first thing she does is what a parent would do, take him to a pediatrician, and the pediatrician says, “Yeah, this kid’s been sexually molested.”

 John Brisson: [00:12:17] But it was even more than that. She took him to Dr. Scott McGeary who was kind of like the child’s doctor and he said, “Yeah, this is really bad because he’s bleeding from the anus, you need to take him to UCLA.” So they take him to the Marion Davies Children’s Clinic at UCLA and both Dr. Linda Gordon and Dr. Jean H Simpson-Savary who are both pediatricians. Savary graduated from John Hopkins, had five years of experience in pediatrics. They come to a conclusion that it was fairly significant findings of sexual abuse. And even later, a doctor that was hired by the defense came to the same conclusion too as well, that Matthew Johnson was severely anally molested.

So it’s all there, but yet according to Nathan Scheidecker’s book about it all being a witch hunt, it was young intern that examined Matthew Johnson. No it wasn’t, these are esteemed doctors. I mean, it wasn’t just some intern that examined him.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:13:18] And it’s not even that there were esteemed doctors, they were just doctors doing their job.

John Brisson: [00:13:22] Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:13:23] So it’s like a parent taking a kid in and saying, “What’s wrong with my kid?” and the doctor’s going, “Oh shit, I’ve seen this before, this isn’t good.” And then it leads to a police investigation and the police get in and they say, “Oh, we’ve seen this shit before, this isn’t good.”

So again, pulling back, because you’re into documentation and proof, but we always have to pull back to the controlled narrative. What is the narrative so strongly, strongly on this crazy idea that this is all panic, this is not real, when it’s so easily, relatively easily, if you can get past your programing, that it’s obviously provable by these documents.

So let me shift gears for a minute. Most of the people listening to this show, unless they’ve followed your work, which is fantastic, know anything about The Finders Cult, and this is going to blow people away, but it’s also going to catapult us right in the middle of events that are unfolding today, in terms of a term that you use called the pedocracy. But tell us, back up, take a big breath, tell us how you even got interested in looking at The Finders Cult.

Let me pause again, because I wanted to mention this. John, you’ve been on Skeptiko before for Fix Your Gut, which is a book that you wrote and that’s why I originally found you because I had had medical problems that led me to you. I found your research, which you did, kind of driven by a personal tragedy that you had experienced in your family, with mainstream medicine that led you to look for some kind of alternative routes. Totally on top of the information. I found your research to be incredibly useful, supported by the real research that’s out there and I really enjoyed you coming on. People can find that. I even referred you to my daughter and you kind of helped her. So I know the kind of work you’ve done, and people might know you from the Fix Your Gut book that you wrote and the work and interviews that you’ve done on that. Can you tell us how that even led or what was behind this new kind of investigation you’ve been doing into this evil that is these crimes against children?

John Brisson: [00:15:59] It’s actually not new, I just had come out with doing a YouTube channel and doing interviews out in the public about my knowledge of conspiracies. The YouTube channel started about eight months ago of me actually being public and me actually doing something with the knowledge that I had, but my father was a conspiracy theorist. I grew up, I was a neo-conservative at the time. I had my grandfather’s political beliefs, and I thought my father was a little bit crazy in a lot of things that he believed in. God, I wish I could tell him now if he was still living, how right he was about the world.

So, I knew the JFK assassination was a government plot, but still, I couldn’t wrap my head around it, I didn’t believe what my father was telling me or not to trust what happened at 9-11 and stuff like that and everything. So I’d always had that basis.

And I listened to Alex Jones, one night when I was listening to Coast to Coast AM very late and he started breaking down of how 9-11 was an inside job. So from there I started looking into and researching conspiracies and around that time too, Alex Jones had Joel Wallach on, who talks a lot about natural health. So that got me into natural health.

So it was around the same time that I started doing both, researching both and I’ve been a researcher for both ever since.

Now, as far as Fix Your Gut, yeah, I started actually making a business and helping people and coaching and writing books and stuff like that, long before I had done anything with conspiracy, just because I felt compelled to do so, my own self being ill, me losing both my parents when I was young to illness and losing a son, trying to help him with the condition that he had and everything.

So I was very compelled to do that but then eventually I was like, “Well, I might as well release the conspiracy research I’m doing too as well.” So I just started coming out with that. Some of my first interviews, yeah, they were Fix Your Gut really, but some of them were also conspiracy going back to 2016. So it’s always been both, it’s just now that I’m actually putting my research out there is really the only difference.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:18:18] What I see in your research is again, an independent researcher who’s just following the data and trying to get the bottom of things. You know, labels are important because they’re the way people understand it and people are going to pigeonhole you as a conspiracy theorist, especially when you come out yourself and call yourself that, and maybe that’s a good thing.  

John Brisson: [00:18:40] I’m doing my best just to own it, because that’s what people are going to call me as. Whereas, as an investigative journalist, I guess would be a better way of putting it. As far as The Finders case is concerned, I am bringing new documents to the table that were not previously seen, like Ramon J Martinez Whistleblower Complaint. I am interviewing people that have not previously been interviewed before, or at least information had not been released, like people pertaining to The Finders case. Like the prosecuting attorney Willie Meggs or U S Customs John Sullivan, or Ramon J Martinez’s partner Bob Harrold.

So I am moving this case further than the information that was previously given to us by other researchers. So that is true investigative journalism. That is true following the leads and following the information as it goes.

 [00:19:31] Alex Tsakiris: [00:19:31] Now you’ve just kind of done a brain dump on people there that’s going to force them to jump right in the middle of this. So let’s go back and talk about, like for someone who’s totally uninitiated, do government intelligence organizations, like the CIA, Mossad, FBI, do they ever use blackmail, and can we prove that?

John Brisson: [00:19:56] Yes, we can prove that. There are many cases that involve the idea of brownstone operations or sexual blackmail. So we have the Franklin scandal, which has implicated at the highest levels of government of them being blackmailed. George H W Bush, Ronald Wilson Reagan, Bill Casey, of of them being around the nexus of Lawrence E. King, that been reported both in John DeCamp, former Nebraska State Senator’s book, The Franklin Scandal, Nick Bryant’s The Franklin Cover-Up, him being an investigative reporter and Henry Vinson, Confessions of a D.C. Madam, who was around the nexus of Lawrence E. King and Craig Spence. So in that case it’s very well documented, for those who look into it.

Jeffrey Epstein, they’ve been using this template forever.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:20:50] Why? Why would our CIA, why would our FBI, why would they blackmail people? That’s not in the constitution, they’re not supposed to do that. Why would they blackmail people, let alone sexual blackmail?

John Brisson: [00:21:06] The CIA is not supposed to operate in American soil, but they still do.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:21:11] When people look into it, if they’re halfway open to just understanding how power works, blackmail is your go-to tool in any respect, because if you pay somebody to do something, then they’ll only go as far as that money goes. And if somebody pays them more or if they have enough money, they don’t have to do it anymore.

John Brisson: [00:21:35] Exactly.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:21:36] Particularly sexual blackmail of this kind, is just a much more effective tool. It’s almost an irresistible tool. Because when we get to talk about The Finders and what they did and the extent to which they got involved with this horrible evil, people are going to recoil and go, “No, we wouldn’t have done that,” and it’s like, the temptation is super great here to do sexual blackmail, right?

John Brisson: [00:22:00] I mean, obviously, with the sexual blackmail comes power, you can get people to vote for whatever you want them to. You can use it as a form of initiation that they are willing to do so, that they’re willing to do other things. There are many different reasons why this blackmail would take place by these intelligence agencies, by the highest levels of government by the world order. It’s also a good tool, like I mentioned earlier, to weed out, “Okay, so this person is willing to do this.”

For example, let’s say it’s as simple as have an affair, if they’re married, have an affair. Well then are they also willing to have sex with underage children? It’s to test how far someone will go and what you can hold against them and use against them. It’s all of that, it’s like a nexus of total control over someone, where it’s not constantly having to buy someone off. Once you have the blackmail once, you can threaten to use it forever.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:23:00] So you kind of mixed a couple of different ideas there and we can’t pull all this apart because you’re not a law enforcement professional and we can’t know for sure what’s going on. Tell us what you do know. So back up for a minute. What is The Finders Cult? How did you first come across it and then how does it tie into intelligence organization involvement?

John Brisson: [00:23:29] The Finders Cult is a cult that was headed by Marion D. Petty, who has many, many connections to intelligence organizations. He ran apartment buildings for OSS members, Office of Strategic Services, during World War II, where he would give them rooms, some people say to gain intelligence, some people say it was the beginning of a brownstone operation.

 Alex Tsakiris: [00:23:52] Brownstone operation, what’s a brownstone operation?

John Brisson: [00:23:55] Pretty much blackmail. Detective Jim Rothstein talked about links to brownstone operations. Brownstone operations is a way that you bring someone to a certain area where there’s filming equipment or you can get some sort of evidence or documented evidence, a camera, something.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:24:14] So you bring them into a room, there are hidden cameras, hidden microphones, they don’t know that. They’re being recorded. They’re doing some act that they don’t want to get out.  A few years ago it used to be homosexuality. Now nobody cares about that or it used to be infidelity, no one cares about that. So it ups the ante, but people still do care about that. Whatever you can get them to do, whatever their weaknesses, whether it’s just doing cocaine, you know, or smoking weed or something like that. Anything that could compromise them, you’re going to record it and then you’re going to start in on this blackmail thing. That’s a brownstone operation, right?

John Brisson: [00:24:55] Yes. So even back then, they’re taking pictures of you entering the hostel with a prostitute, for example. So yeah, I mean any evidence that they can give, where it’s a setup to blackmail you, that is a brownstone operation. For example, there have been instances of Craig B. Spence throwing parties at his house where his house was wired up with two-way mirrors and recording devices and famous people would go to his parties and there would be children provided there by Lawrence E. King, for them to sexual blackmail and even practice ritual satanic abuse at those parties. The same could be said about Jeffrey Epstein’s…

 Alex Tsakiris: [00:25:31] Hold on, because that’s going to throw people and what we understand now is that kind of what you alluded to before, it kind of becomes somewhat of a slippery evil slope in that, if you caught me doing cocaine with a prostitute, then I’m in your club and you’re inviting me to your party. I may not approve of people molesting five year old and four year old kids, but I’m at the party with other people, strange bedfellows kind of thing, who are. I may not be into satanic ritual abuse, but I am now at a party where there are other people who are trying to tap into these malevolent forces and we’ll talk about that, and that’s their thing.

So it’s almost like this kind of crazy brownstone blackmail thing creates this kind of cesspool that doesn’t necessarily have to have a full purpose or joining all of these different people together, they just kind of congregate by the force of the brownstone blackmail operation.

John Brisson: [00:26:44] Yes, and of course, everybody who’s gone to these parties may have not participated in, you know, the darkest things that occur, like ritual satanic abuse or child abuse at these parties. Some of it can be compartmentalized, I agree with you on that.

Now, to separate that, separate the wheat from the chaff, as they say, that can be very difficult. You usually have to look at someone’s position within the world order how much power they have. You know, I seriously doubt Bill Clinton didn’t do anything wrong on the Lolita Express, for example, or Donald Trump hanging around with Epstein too as well, going to his house frequently and everything like that.

 Alex Tsakiris: [00:27:24] Or Alan Dershowitz just because he’s an attorney and he’s… I agree and I think this is like another important part and the point I would make is burden of proof. At what point does the burden of proof shift to these people need to prove to us that they weren’t involved. If you were in the Franklin scandal party with King and we know that he was trafficking children, sexually abusing children, doing child pornography and all of this other crazy stuff, then the burden of proof, I think, shifts to you. You were at the party, you should have known or probably knew that these things were going on. Prove to us that it’s not true. And in the news recently we have Prince Andrew, he cannot prove that. So he looks really bad because he can’t establish… We all accept this idea of burden of proof and the burden of proof has not shifted. So I’m sorry, go ahead.

John Brisson: [00:28:30] No, I was going to say, you’re 100% right. Of course with Prince Andrew, he claims the picture that he took of Virginia Roberts Giuffre was a doctored picture, when obviously that is her and him, with Ghislaine Maxwell standing behind them. It’s obviously not a photoshot picture, but that’s what he’s claiming. So just like Lawrence E. King.

And other people ask, if this is true then why aren’t these cases prosecuted to the full extent of the law, why aren’t these people in jail? If you believe in a world order type structure, or however you want to put it, that the government’s got to protect it’s own self-interests when they’re running these operations, that’s not going to happen. Lawrence E. King did not go to jail for running a massive sexual [unclear 00:29:16] ring and molesting children and everything like that. He went to jail for embezzlement, of embezzling funds from the Franklin Community Credit Union.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:29:24] Worst yet, his co-conspirators in Lincoln, Nebraska. And we have to keep backing up and I don’t know how this is going work, again people are just going to tune out, or they’ve already heard all of this stuff and they think we’re not going to cover anything new, and we are going to cover something new.

But the Franklin scandal is kind of well-documented, but what I was going to point out, the real tragedy, I think, that people find in this is that, when it came to prosecutions, they actually prosecuted the victims, go them convicted for perjury. Which, when we look at it through the lens of now knowing that clearly those people were guilty, clearly.

I mean, when they first rated King, who was set up to run this phony-baloney savings and loan and was running it, was running it into the ground and was embezzling all of this money, but they go and grab his computer and they find all sorts of child porn on the computer. So again, it’s physical evidence that this stuff is going on. And he’s taken the kids and the kids say, “Yeah, they took me to Bohemian Grove, and I was sold out and all this stuff.

But then these kids, these kids are actually prosecuted because they’re now testifying against some very, very powerful people in the Lincoln, Nebraska connected elite, and they get the whole thing reversed and get these guys convicted of perjury, which is just an absurd, you know, injustice.

The other thing I want to mention, you keep throwing world order, and you’ve kind of said that a couple times. I don’t want to say that. I don’t want to go there because that’s a whole other discussion. I think, if we ever do get back to The Finders Cult, which we keep trying to get back to, there are many different ways to understand it, and one clear way of understanding it is what we talked about in terms of a brownstone operation and blackmail and that this would be just an irresistible tool for intelligence organizations to use. They can say, “Well, we could send a dozen agents out in the field and we could try and get on the inside and penetrate this group or we could just film this one guy doing these horrible deeds to an eight year old girl, and then he’ll give us the whole thing. So what should we do? A three year undercover operation that’s going to cost all this money and may expose us to all this blow back, or do we just do this one little trick over here? But in doing that trick, we have to partner with the most evil people in the world who groom and traffic little kids for sex.” And some intelligence guy says, “Yeah, but really, when you look at it from a cost benefit analysis, maybe we should do that.” I mean, that’s what the Finders Cult is about.

John Brisson: [00:32:25] Or maybe we should run guns or run drugs. [unclear 00:32:30 involves all three of them, gun running, child pornography and running through the Franklin scandal, and drug running and gun running. So it involves all of that.

So I guess I could say is yeah, we’re taking a long time to get to The Finders, but however, it’s important because we have to lay the groundwork, and this isn’t just one specific instance that this occurred, it’s occurred in multiple, multiple instances. I know Epstein is on everybody’s minds now, because that’s the most recent one, but the Profumo affair in the 1960s and then Franklin and McMartin. It’s not just one isolated event and they are using all of this and my guess is prosecutions never happen, or at least to the degree that they should have, even in the daycare scandals.

I mean they’re saying witch hunts today when it comes to Trump and being innocent and having not to do anything. It’s interesting because you’ll have people like Michael Savage who will compare the Russian witch hunt to Trump, to McMartin and say, “Well, McMartin’s a witch hunt, so the Russian scandals are witch hunts. You’ll see that a lot and it’s still being used in vernacular today and still being pushed by people that you think should be intelligent.

I mean, Michael Savage wrote a book on famous witch hunts, and in his book for McMartin, he does not read this, take the time or do anything. He lists as his source a Listverse article on McMartin. I mean they made this by design, in my opinion, so that they could continue to get on with the brownstone operations because no one thinks twice about sending their children to daycares anymore. No one thinks twice, because if you think about it, “Oh, it’s just satanic panic, what are you doing? Why are you concerned about sending your kid off?”

I’m pretty sure abuses are still occurring, we just don’t hear about them anymore, because reporters aren’t going to report it because of what happened with all of the daycare scandals in the 1980s and 1990s.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:34:42] So let’s take one more stab at going back to The Finders, because we’ve kind of talked around about it and I kind of sent us maybe in a different direction. So The Finders Cult, what is it? Why is it a cult, per se? And then what is the connection to what we’re talking about, these brownstone operations?

John Brisson: [00:35:07] It’s a cult because Marion Petty was the leader of a group of people that would enter and exit out of The Finders, and when they entered into The Finders, they would give up their monetary possessions, they would give up their real estate, which you would normally see with cults, of how the leader would get everything and they put everything into what was called an invisible bank. Petty would say, “Oh, if you left, you’d get your stuff back.” Well, Finders members would later sue, that would leave the cult, that would not get what they put back into the invisible bank back.

Now I’d actually argue and I’ve kind of changed it in the book I’m writing. I have referenced it as a cult to make it more palatable to people, but I do actually think it should be more classified as The Finders Operation, because that seems like what it is, with Marion Petty’s ties initially to the Office of Strategic Services, him being part of the Air Force and later the information that we have from the investigative leads memo of being trained in espionage at the Jesuit College, Georgetown University.  

Alex Tsakiris: [00:36:17] Take us through a timeline.

John Brisson: [00:36:18] With Petty, Petty joined the Air Force and was a chauffeur to many famous people at the time. He chauffeured Harry S. Truman, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Hap Arnold who was head of the Air Force, he was head of the Air Force at the time. So he chauffeured many, many high up, elite people around the time of World War II and afterwards. And he was also owning these apartment buildings in Washing DC that he was renting to the Office of Strategic Services members.

So he’s had connections to the government, the highest levels of government even back then.

Now, he claims that he got the money to start The Finders and to buy property in Virginia by winning poker games. Over time he just saved up his money to buy land, where the investigative leads memo, we don’t know who the author of that is, has made references to, that it was him knowing people within intelligence was how he got that money, because he had high level connections. To buy all of these hundreds of acres of land, it was from him winning poker games while he was in the military.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:37:31] Right and that would be consistent with kind of what we’re seeing with the latest breaking kind of inside story of the Epstein thing, and maybe you want to talk about that. For most people that even begin to understand Epstein, they weren’t even awake to any of it until the phony hanging. And then even just the average citizen goes, “Come on. That’s just ridiculous. The suicide thing, it doesn’t fit.” Well, the kind of next level research that people are doing says really, if you look at it, Epstein looks a lot more like a front man, fall guy thing.

John Brisson: [00:38:12] Yes, yes.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:38:13] And one of the telltale signs of that is the stuff is in his name. No one puts their name on stuff when they’re doing those kinds of deeds, and I think the same is true in what you’re talking about. Whenever we see somebody, “I own the land, I own the apartments and I’m part of this brownstone operation.” Then it’s like, well, you’re probably just a front man because no one who’s really doing that stuff would be having their name on the line. What do you think about that? And maybe fill people in on the Epstein thing that I might be leaving out.

John Brisson: [00:38:51] I 100% agree with you. According to Epstein, I think he was lower on the rung when it comes to… it was like Lawrence E. King. I think there were people, Craig Spence was hired and then Lawrence E. King. There are people higher up within these organizations and Lawrence E. King was the fall man, Jeffrey Epstein was the fall man.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:39:10] Guilty though, guilty.

John Brisson: [00:39:09] Of course, no, I’m not saying that at all, I’m just saying those people go down, the higher up people keep their hands clean. So because of that, obviously people that are higher up than Jeffrey Epstein would be Ghislaine Maxwell, Les Wexner, the billionaire who gave Jeffrey Epstein his New York City mansion for $1 and supposedly that mansion was wired up for the brownstone operation that was occurring.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:39:40] $3 or $4 million worth of audio video recording.

John Brisson: [00:39:44] Property.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:39:46] No, what I heard is $3 or $4 million or audio video recording equipment in a secret room underneath a stairway to kind of manage and control it and upload it and all the rest of that. So again, Finders, Finders cult. The same parallels, right? This guy is setting up these apartments, if you will, and we don’t have the full story like we do on Epstein yet, but probably the same operation. I think you’re right, instead of calling it a cult, it’s an operation from the very beginning because it’s good business to run these rings of blackmail.

John Brisson: [00:40:25] Yeah. So I mean, Mary had petty buys all that land from Charles Marsh and I believe that he wasn’t just from, from getting playing poker.  it was because his connections gave him the money to be able to set up this free state. Cause that was Mary Petty’s main, one of his main operations separate from, , you know, the filming of child pornography or are separate from, .

[00:40:48], the darkness was that he co-opted a lot of the human potential movement, and it seemed like that he was the CIS man to do so. , and to kinda control it and to steer it, , from what I’ve seen, I mean, he also had connection to connections that we know of. Two Timothy Leary, , and that he was, , dealing with a wall, a shy Decker who was, , Timothy Leary and Billy Hitchcock.

[00:41:11]So time and time again, you see that it petty can’t just be lucky to have all these connections to all of these famous people.

[00:41:20] And for him to be no one, you couldn’t show for a round. , Dwight D Eisenhower. Patent, , Lyndon Baines Johnson. ,  Charles, it were Marsh and he couldn’t know all these people throughout, , his whole life and just be like, you and I, it’s just the odds of that are just.

[00:41:39] Very small

[00:41:41] Alex Tsakiris: [00:41:41] okay. So yeah, there’s a lot of kind of cult elements there that ring bells with other cults. We’ve seen. Again, I, I’m worried that we’re not stitching together the story in a way that people are going to be able to follow it. Okay. So we have petty, he’s chauffeuring around all these super high level presidents and the highest level in the military.

[00:42:06] And as we know, chauffeur doesn’t just mean you’re a good driver. It also means you’re a confident cause you see things that other people aren’t supposed to see and you’re trusted to keep secrets that. Others might

[00:42:22] John Brisson: [00:42:22] not. These people are talking to him too. Right. You know, that’s mentioned too, you know, in interviews that they are, they’re having discussions with him, telling him private information too, as well.

[00:42:32] Heads of state selling and private

[00:42:33] Alex Tsakiris: [00:42:33] information. So let’s skip ahead in the story to where this, find his group and petty first encounter law enforcement. And I like. The Tallahassee police encounter because it seems like a pretty clean. Clean slate investigation of a, when these people are run into law enforcement, or maybe there’s something before that

[00:43:01] John Brisson: [00:43:01] yes. The only thing that we have about the previous raids is a little bit of the documents that were released in the FBI flow from the metropolitan police department investigation. That was once labeled secret, but it’s not anymore because time has passed on it.

[00:43:14] Alex Tsakiris: [00:43:14] There’s a raid, what are they find in this warehouse?

[00:43:18] John Brisson: [00:43:18] Okay, let me go to the metropolitan police department of seven to set everything up for that rate. Okay, so they’re not raid. They were, they were. You know, telling it’s the starts the whole pornography investigation and that they were rating the finder’s warehouse and interviewing members of the finders that they were shooting pornography at the warehouse.

[00:43:39]Alex Tsakiris: [00:43:39] Why did they suspect that? Why would the police go and just randomly raid somewhere else?

[00:43:45] John Brisson: [00:43:45] Because we were, because according to that, all we have is Toby Tyrrell’s instance, and then his book, the game color. The only thing I could piece together from that was, was they were having women that were entering the warehouse that were, I mean, it’s like a warehouse, like, you know, surrounded by other warehouses.

[00:44:03] They were having beautiful women. Entering the warehouse. So they thought pornography was being shot there, and when they went there and raided the place, they found the camera in the staging area that would later be implicated by Ramon J Martinez, that they were shooting pornography there as well to child pornography.

[00:44:22]Alex Tsakiris: [00:44:22] ,

[00:44:22] right. So that makes sense there. Just some local. Washington D C cop, they’re doing their investigation, either in prostitution or whatever, and they go, Hey, this looks strange. And they follow their suspicion and they raid the place. Now take us to the Martinez thing because w who was he and what is he tasked to do and how does he tie into this.

[00:44:44] John Brisson: [00:44:44] Well, I guess maybe I should start with Tallahassee’s as far as doing the timeline. So later in 1987, which first started this whole modern idea of what we know about the finder’s case, Alex, is that, , two, , two men were arrested, Douglas, Edward Ammerman and James Michael Hollowell   were arrested on February 4th, 1987 when a concerned citizen called in and said they noticed many disheveled, dirty children that were behaving like wild animals in Myers park in Tallahassee, Florida. And so the cops get there. Two cops, Tony Mashburn and Judy Shokeen. They both, you know, arrive at the scene.

[00:45:23] They witnessed the children. They witnessed, you know, the two adults. They witnessed the van that was there, the blue sportsman band at the children, and the adults were living out of .

[00:45:34] Alex Tsakiris: [00:45:34] What are the adults look like?

[00:45:36] John Brisson: [00:45:36] They’re wearing suits.

[00:45:38] Alex Tsakiris: [00:45:38] So the kids are disheveled and dirty, and the adults are wearing suits and Tallahassee, Florida.


[00:45:44] John Brisson: [00:45:44] so they start noticing something’s off. So they start interviewing Hollowell and Ammerman. So, you know, the men mentioned that they were taking the kids to a special school in Mexico, did not identify that they had any relation to the kids whatsoever.

[00:46:00] Police officers are automatically suspicious. Like, what? What is this? I mean, anybody would, you know, so they, , move to arrest. Ammerman and Halliwell and take the children into custody. And when they do, Hollowell refuses to talk and he faints and planks on the ground, and there’s actually video. And Derek Rose is trying to, he’s another investigator trying to hunt down this video of them, you know.

[00:46:24] Lifting Hollowell as he’s planked on the ground and putting him into the cop car. And that was filming that used to be, you know, broadcast everywhere during the fighters case. But hoe also had two forms of Miranda rights with them when he was arrested. One state seeing that he had something to hide and another stating that he had nothing to hide.

[00:46:45] So why all of this. You know,

[00:46:49] Alex Tsakiris: [00:46:49] because these guys are rusted. Well, tell the hussy police, they’re on this. They’re like, this is bizarre. So what happens

[00:46:57] John Brisson: [00:46:57] next? There are both, or a child would, they were both charged with child abuse and they were given a hundred thousand dollar bonds each. And so from there, the, the, the task, the police department starts an investigation.

[00:47:09] They start looking at the contents and the van and the contents of the van. You get a TRS 80 computer, which was very sophisticated at the time that the Finers were using to connect to telephone lines to communicate back to DC. BBS message boards and messages that they, that they, they privately had at that time that they were using in communication.

[00:47:28] They also found a Chinese English dictionary, which we’ll get to, you know, the finders had many connections supposedly to China and possibly through telexes that there were  selling of children to China, , that the finders were facilitating. , supposedly that remote J Martinez had found, uh, during his investigation of both the apartment building in the warehouse later in Washington.

[00:47:50]. And they also found pictures within the, , van. And some of those pictures were of naked children. Now the fighters would argue that those pictures were just adults taking pictures of their kids.

[00:48:03] Alex Tsakiris: [00:48:03] Let’s not, let’s not muddy the water with it. Bullshit. Completely flat. Earth bullshit kind of explanations.

[00:48:11] They found child pornography. They’re cops. They see it. They’re on this case now, right? I mean, they are on this thing, right?

[00:48:19] John Brisson: [00:48:19] So they’re trying, they’re trying to track down the parents of the kids. This was the Tallahassee police department is trying to do. So when they take the kids into, , the police station, they start noticing that the children don’t understand like modern objects, like clocks.

[00:48:36] Typewriters. , they start, you know, a few of them start urinating on the floor. , and so they’re have very off behavior and they talk about giving, getting food as a reward. , and that they, they follow a very, , very strictly vegan diet. , and, and so they start, you know, interviewing the children, , Jordan, uh, Rico who was labeled as Mary at the time.

[00:48:57] She, every time they ask her about a sexual abuse, she becomes very fidgety and doesn’t really want to answer those questions.

[00:49:04]how old are the children? They range anywhere between six to three.

[00:49:09] Alex Tsakiris: [00:49:09] And how many of them

[00:49:10] John Brisson: [00:49:10] are there? Six. Okay. So there, it’s a very interesting thing about this is, is when I, when I interviewed, former,

[00:49:20] tallahassee police department. , officer Rick Kauffman. . So I had always thought that through the FBI that they would, you know, the mothers would have came down, they would have checked the birth certificates or shown some proof other than the children actually, you know, responding to the parents.

[00:49:36] Like, this is my mother, this is my father, or you know, but, but there’s the mothers that went down. But you always see what I’m saying. So I thought there would have been more proof of trying to back that up from what I’m ascertaining, what I’m finding out. That was not. I need to find out.

[00:49:50] Alex Tsakiris: [00:49:50] Okay, my jump back up for a minute here because, okay, so these are cops.

[00:49:54] They’re just doing what at this point there. They know there’s something odd. They just want to find the case. So what do they do next? How do they contact these kids who are like, just feral. Animals, uh, how do they contact their parents? What do they do? Who are their parents?

[00:50:14] John Brisson: [00:50:14] They’re trying to track down. Leads are getting many calls from family members of the finders, like, . They got a call from ’em,

[00:50:22] Alex Tsakiris: [00:50:22] but I mean, do they do, they call in the media and say, Hey, here are these kids.

[00:50:26] John Brisson: [00:50:26] Yes. They call, they call in the media. They’re saying, you know, here are these kids.

[00:50:29] It was very well reported even throughout the associated press. It’s reported throughout the United States are trying to find the identities of these children, of who their parents are. If they are parents of members within the cult,

[00:50:42] Alex Tsakiris: [00:50:42] and they don’t know there’s a cult at this point. Right.

[00:50:44] John Brisson: [00:50:44] I mean, they have some idea around that time.

[00:50:47] Yes.

[00:50:47] Alex Tsakiris: [00:50:47] Right? But I mean, they’re just  before we can say cult. I mean, they just say, who are the parents of these kids? Because it’s fun. We want to reunite the kids with their parents, but number two, I want to investigate what’s going on. So how do they then connect these. Kids with quote unquote their parents.

[00:51:05] John Brisson: [00:51:05] Well, eventually the parents after week step up and contact the Tallahassee police department that they want to come from Tallahassee, that they were in California. And they waited because everybody was blowing it out of proportion that, you know, this was satanic ritual abuse and they were satanic elements and they were a fear for their life.

[00:51:22] So they waited a week to go down to Tallahassee to meet with the Tallahassee police department for them to meet, you know, try to get custody of their

[00:51:30] Alex Tsakiris: [00:51:30] children. How many parents are there?


[00:51:33] John Brisson: [00:51:33] 12 neuron within the finders. Okay,

[00:51:36] Alex Tsakiris: [00:51:36] so there’s 12 parents. When you say they’re all in the finder’s, we’ll later find out that they’re associated with the  finder’s operation or finder’s called, but at this point they’re just adults who are living in California. What else do we know?

[00:51:50] John Brisson: [00:51:50] The girl, well, they weren’t living in California.

[00:51:52] The women were there for working. , they called it weening, , the children away from their mothers. So they were there at working in California, but their bases were still in the apartments in Washington, D C area, and we’re still in the warehouse. , but yes, , during the investigation, , the Tallahassee police department figures out.

[00:52:12] That these were their parents. These were members of the finders, that they were a cult. That’s what they were labeled as such. Now, some people have disagreements in there. When I talked to riff ho, Rick Kauffman, and just like, you know, he mentioned in the, , the paper and everything like that. There’s two ways , of framing the finders that happen, like it happens with all this.

[00:52:29] Oh, they’re just progressive and progressive with , how they raise the children, how the children were pretty much wild. And, and previously, beforehand that we learned that they’re, you know, two children had left the warehouse area and had been picked up by the police.

[00:52:43] And a, and had stayed certain amount of time in foster care, , before this event had even happened. , so they kind of look at him and, well, they’re just Progressive’s and that’s how they raised their kids in there. And that’s okay. And anybody who tried to fight for the kids, like a prosecuting attorney, Willie Meggs, they just labeled him as a Christian.

[00:53:00] As a nut. He just, a nut uses a zealot with a, with a, with a chip on his shoulders, you know, trying to, , keep the children away from their parents and the finders and everything like that. They, they label him as such. Again, it’s the whole witch hunt narrative. They label, you know, the people who are trying to get down to the bottom of things and trying to protect the children as Christians and having Christian proclivities and the people that say the finders didn’t do anything.

[00:53:25] They were more progressive.

[00:53:27] Alex Tsakiris: [00:53:27] Well there’s, you know, we’ll, we’ll get into that. Uh, there’s a lot of deep waters there that we have to kind of tread as well. I, I’m trying to put it together as an, and maybe a different way, which is, you know, you got to tell the stories and we’re just two guys having a conversation here, a change in the world or anything like that.

[00:53:46] I’m trying to understand this. I do think. The false narratives and repeating the false narratives and the, obviously, , false narratives. I don’t think that helps the story. I don’t think any reasonable person would see this as fitting into anything close to a progressive child-rearing, especially when now our eyes have born more open to, The grooming of children and the involvement of children in sex crimes, and it fits so exactly into that model that I just don’t think we need to spend a lot of time with those alternative narratives. Even if they did entertain people back in 1987 who cares? As we look back on it, it’s clearly these kids were being,

[00:54:35] John Brisson: [00:54:35] but not everybody’s looking at it that way, though.

[00:54:37] They’re labeling as such. That’s why I’m bringing that to the table that. No,

[00:54:42] Alex Tsakiris: [00:54:42] it’s the mean, no, it’s, it’s flat earth stuff. It’s, it’s flat earth stuff, you know? And when I say flat earth stuff, it’s like, it just w we’ve seen this over and over again, and all these different fields, you know, as even in the more mundane stuff that I’ve done.

[00:54:55] And you know, my show, you know, on near death experience, you can sit in. Argue and debate with people. And I still sometimes engage in it on these crazy, you know, last gasp of a dying brain or, you know, some stuff that just doesn’t add up. And you know, you have mountains and mountains of scientific papers that refute that over and over again.

[00:55:16] And this is a tactic, you know, we

[00:55:18] John Brisson: [00:55:18] have to, but the thing is, is with this, we don’t have, I mean, we don’t, there’s so much pushback on it that you have to show why the other side is wrong. Just like when we talk about the execution of Henrietta and Igor, if the children have participated in and how I believe that to be a satanic ritual, the, the finders and everything that was reported about it at the time, uh, you know, I mean, later on, at first they, they, they.

[00:55:42] Presented as such as being as a tenant ritual. These children participated in, but later was changed. It was now looked upon in cause the guy remember the way you and I look at things. Our war with our eyes open is different than the general public. So when you know when most of the general public look at it, they’re going to go with the idea that’s being pushed to them, that it was just animal husband, tree, because that’s what the finders are trying us in the media.

[00:56:07] Later on, try to say it was that the experience was just them. Teaching, you know, if you were a butcher and you’re raising your kids and the art of butchery, then you would show them how to butcher a goat. And you would give a three year old child the goat’s head to hold on a civil platter and a picture, and, you know, rip out the womb and, and, you know, S, you know, pull the fetuses out.

[00:56:27] And, and you know, that, that. They label that as such. So you have to show why that is ludicrous. And then the fact that that, that, that’s what I’m trying to do.

[00:56:37] Alex Tsakiris: [00:56:37] See, this is a, this is an interesting discussion and it’s one that we should have because only people like you and I can have this kind of discussion, this level three discussion.

[00:56:47] So yeah, I don’t think you do. I don’t think you can get there from here. So what you’re describing is, again, this.  you kind of hinted at up, maybe people can pick up the thread of that story is there is this ritualistic slaughter of this goat that clearly for anyone who’s looked into it is a cultic satanic, you know, with all the symbolism and stuff like that.

[00:57:15] And their explanation of it was, as you said, just this absurd idea of animal husbandry and why you would show a three year old and have them. I have a photo with the goats head on a thing, you know? But my point is, can’t get there from here. Again, I’m drawing my wife under the bus here, but you know, forensic psychologist goes down to the, the prison in the mental health hospital, reviewing people’s cases that are up for parole for, you know, crimes that involve a mental health disorder kind of thing.

[00:57:48] She just like a totally legit. Kind of person. She’s well educated, obviously she’s got a PhD. She knows all this stuff. Can’t get there from here. It does not, even the worldview doesn’t even open up enough to, you know, so you saying, gee, pound on the table and going, that’s crazy. That doesn’t make any sense.

[00:58:12] You’ve lost him. You can’t, it’s not a worldview thing. So what we need to do,

[00:58:18] John Brisson: [00:58:18] but some people do, but some people do wake up though. I woke up.  It does happen and we can’t sensationalize things either. Like, you know, the Q and on people saying that there’s, you know, huge adrenochrome farms where, you know, you were trying to objectively follow the facts of where they lead to, you know, and so that’s why I’m trying to present it, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s the present.

[00:58:41] Their argument is false. I have to show. Why it is false. And some people will read this who previously did not believe in ritual satanic abuse or did not believe that the government is involved in such things. Some people

[00:58:55] we’ll come to the conclusion that it is a real thing. That’s why it’s important.  I mean, I even saw it with Henry Clements when I asked him claims that were written about him in books of statements that he made, and he’s saying, I never made that statement.

[00:59:07] And him, you know, I me interviewing him multiple, multiple times and us having conversations throughout many months and him never changing his story and him never adding things or embellishing things or anything like that. You as an author, I have to, you know, show what the evidence shows and not take things out of context.

[00:59:27] Not put words in people’s mouths. So I ha, you know, I think it’s important for me to do these things because there will be some people who will, not everyone, you’re right. You can’t. You can’t get everyone to look at it. Some people don’t want to stare into the abyss and realize how evil this is. Want to see that it goes to the top levels of government.

[00:59:47] They want to live with their head buried in the sand because they can’t just face that cruel, harsh, true reality of life in the world that we live in, but still for some that still hold onto the objectivity, you have to show them of why these narratives are wrong. Because if, if, if we go with every, if, if I just start out.

[01:00:07] With, you know, everything that deals with satanic ritual abuse and all of these cases. If I just start out with that, it’s gonna immediately turn a whole bunch of people off. They’ll will not recognize the true depths of this, and there are people that do change their minds. You changed your mind, did you not when you started looking into the evidence.

[01:00:25]Alex Tsakiris: [01:00:25] , yeah, I mean it, but I was already predisposed to, I mean, I think you go through these layers. It’s like layers of an onion. You know?

[01:00:34] John Brisson: [01:00:34] I have a good personal friend who did not believe it, who worked for CPS until he read the Franklin scandal and knew the reports that were given by the CPS officials in the Franklin scandal that that was what changed him.

[01:00:45] He went from not believing it. To believing it afterwards and doing research on his own. Yeah,

[01:00:52] Alex Tsakiris: [01:00:52] I agree with you and I think you make an excellent point and I love how you just laid all that out again in this kind of inside baseball discussion, which is interesting, so I’m going to pursue it a little bit further.

[01:01:04] The flip side of that that I was trying to tap into is that. The bunny trail stuff can get really frustrating too, you know? So spending an inordinate amount of time on. The, just the ludicrous ER story to me, I just, I’ve been down that path a million times. It’s flat earth kind of stuff. It’s like, obviously that’s a manufactured story.

[01:01:33] I’m glad that you got the story out there. I just don’t, you know, it’s like the false equivalency argument. The skeptical argument, like there has to be a balance. We have to give equal time to these other things. And you’re not saying that,

[01:01:49] John Brisson: [01:01:49] I’m, I guess whole time I’m saying this is what they say, this is why it’s wrong.

[01:01:55] Alex Tsakiris: [01:01:55] Then so, so I’m just super sensitive to that and, and cause I want to get to not one narrative, like this is the answer kind of narrative, but I want to kind of string this stuff together. In a way that’s going to get us more quickly to understanding this stuff from the big picture standpoint. So the fact that there’s this, so here’s where we’re at.

[01:02:20] I mean, back to our story, we got this finders operation that is also a cult. So it’s pushing all the buttons that we know to be the cult buttons and getting people mind controlled and getting them to give up their. Common sense and their, their

[01:02:40] John Brisson: [01:02:40] morals, their sense of self,

[01:02:42] Alex Tsakiris: [01:02:42] their sense of self, all this stuff in exchange for these other things.

[01:02:47] And in this case, it’s mixed in with this sexual abuse of children and all the rest of that. But, so back to the, to the story. I want to follow , the chronology if we can. So we can imagine at this point that the Tallahassee police. , they may be acting like, Hey, we’re just trying to, you know, reunite these kids.

[01:03:08] But you gotta believe that deep down. And again, folks, John Brisson has. Talk to God, picked up the phone, picked up the Skype, and talk to people from the Tallahassee police department that remember this case. This is a real researcher investigator who has unique information to bring to this. It’s, this is kind of remarkable.

[01:03:33] You know, back to the beginning. I got to go back to the very beginning intro. Who the hell is doing this? You know, I talked to all these, like I said, all these academics I talk to that want to dismiss this or not, won’t find a, find a reason not to believe it. Please call up the Tallahassee police like John did.

[01:03:52] Please call up the Tallahassee police investigators who worked on the case. Talk to them. So back to the Tallahassee police. I know a little bit about how police investigations work. These guys know these people are guilty and they want the parents to come in because they want to get their testimony.

[01:04:12] John Brisson: [01:04:12] Some of them do. Sure. But some of them don’t. Um, so and so they bring in, okay. So they, they, they take the children to be examined by a doctor to see if any, if any, , sexual molestation, , had taken place. And I’m still trying. I’m still trying to track down. Those reports are trying to track down anybody that can verify outside the Tallahassee police department documents on those, and so they bring in dr diamond Greenberg.

[01:04:40] Well, dr Nyman Greenberg was for the defense of the McMartin trial. And he was wanting to lead, , you know, experts for the defense to cash aid on key MacFarlane who key McFarlane was, you know, the therapist who was interviewing the children, the main therapist who’s interviewing the children for the McMartin case,

[01:04:57] Alex Tsakiris: [01:04:57] they call it, let me interject a quick question.

[01:04:59] I have no idea. Why did they bring him in? That sounds very suspicious that he was the guy who was brought in

[01:05:07] John Brisson: [01:05:07] because there was a man named Greg Kohler who worked for, um, the NHS and Florida, uh, who used to live in Chicago, who knew, uh. Greenburg in Greenberg set himself up as a lead expert in trying to determine, uh, you know, child abuse.

[01:05:27] And he had this organization called child abuse unit for studies, uh, out of the university of Illinois.

[01:05:33] Alex Tsakiris: [01:05:33] Um, and a lot of times, I guess, you know, where I’m going and I’m trying to bring the audience along. What we’ve come to understand is a lot of these groups that routinely testify in defense of these pedophiles in these trials are kind of a well organized work of the false memory syndrome, phony bologna shit connected with NAMBLA and this guy sounds like kind of the same thing.

[01:05:59] And the fact that he’s kind of hand picked to come in and give. Testimony contradict, you know, to, to put the facts in a certain way. Have you done any investigation into who might’ve been behind positioning him in

[01:06:14] John Brisson: [01:06:14] that way other than great Kohler or I have not been able to figure out anything else that goes higher than him.

[01:06:19] Now. Greenberg was later, um, give, uh, um, Greenberg was later. Um. I think he charged, I’m thinking of charging a Florida health rehabilitative services $168,000 for his work on the finder’s case. Um, and he was offered nine contracts for his work on the fighters case, improved Florida’s response and training to handle child sexual abuse after the case in Greenbury.

[01:06:41] Even mentions through some of the news articles that have had, that have, have read that, um. He does say the children were neglected, um, unlike McMartin read it and think nothing happened. Um, but he later came to the conclusion that they were not, uh, sexually abused. Um. And so we’d only evidence that we have of sexual abuse is, um, the examinations by Dr.

[01:07:05] Moore, who I tried to track down to, but he’s been deceased for five years. Um, and I’m still trying to track down Jane up patella of the Florida health rehabilitative services to see if I can get her side. Um, but he mentioned that it was an, and this is preliminary. Rearview, this isn’t, you know, this isn’t, I wish we had something more substantiated.

[01:07:26] The disciplinary review that I haven’t, you know, there’s more than what’s in the task. Police department documents and max Livingstone lack anal speech or control consistent with previous previous sodomy and a Jordan Rico’s right Hyman was absent and a large vaginal orifice, which is consistent with digital penetration.

[01:07:44] That was never followed up. So rather than them, other than eventually saying that nothing happened. Well if the Tallahassee police department and the news media and dr diamond Greenberg.

[01:07:55] Alex Tsakiris: [01:07:55] Okay, so, so here’s the really interesting part of this story, and that’s a misstatement because the whole story is interesting, but let’s skip ahead a little bit because the Tallahassee police are still investigating this.

[01:08:09] And then there. Call off it said, Hey, maybe you don’t want to look there, and then let’s lead back to as quickly as we can Martinez, because I think that provides overwhelming evidence that these kids were being sexually. Molested, abused, tortured, all the rest of it. So tie those strings together.

[01:08:30] John Brisson: [01:08:30] So as far as the tasks, the police department, uh, is concerned, uh, skip Clements, uh, gave me in his interview that the FBI in Jacksonville told the tau ha and the FBI, Tallahassee to told, uh, the, um, the taxi police department to, uh, to wrap up their case.

[01:08:49] Rick Kauffman, on the other hand, just says the case was done. Um, it, that they had re-ignited the children with their parents, and it was up to the courts to decide whether or not. Um, anything had occurred when the children should be released back to their parents. Um, so that’s the, I have not, I want to talk to Scott Hunt of the Tallahassee police department who was very vocal at the time.

[01:09:10] He was though organization, organizer of the press about what was going on, that the children were molested and that it was a tannic ritual abuse, but he will not talk to anyone. Um. So hopefully one day that if Scott Hunt ever listens to this interview, I hope that he, he does reach out to me and reaches out Derek Rose, or just reaching out to someone.

[01:09:29] Um, but, so that is the way it is framed was that it’s, you know, it just was a natural course investigation. It was wrapped up and it was put off to the

[01:09:40] Alex Tsakiris: [01:09:40] courts. Okay. So this is what I heard. And I guess I’m picking through these little bits that I remember. I heard there’s people in the Tallahassee police that are really pissed off and they’re like, what the hell is going on?

[01:09:52] What do you mean wrap up our investigation?

[01:09:55] John Brisson: [01:09:55] That’s what Clements sat in. I would have to agree with them because the Tallahassee police department documents are not. Redacted. I mean, the FBI released the Tallahassee police department doc documents and they redacted them and you’re supposed to redact certain information in most documents.

[01:10:13] Those documents are not redacted at all.

[01:10:15] Alex Tsakiris: [01:10:15] So explain to people what you mean, what you think that’s suspicious. Why you think not suspicious? What I hear you saying. Is they are making a statement in not redacting those documents. They’re saying, we’re not playing ball here and hiding this crime. That’s what I hear you saying.

[01:10:36] John Brisson: [01:10:36] I would have to say yes. Um, I have no firm evidence on that. I would just have to say with what I know, uh, yeah, because most of the time you’re supposed to redact. Um, certain information, you know, um, victim’s names sometimes or, or especially if they’re children, you’re supposed to redact their names. Um, and, uh, and there was no, no redactions, no reductions were performed.

[01:10:58] Um, even when I got the store forward, a police department documents on James tower, and I’ve seen many, many, many different types of documents ranging from law enforcement to FBI to CIA. You read this, you’re supposed to redact certain things, ties to police, and I’m a, and I am grateful that he didn’t redact anything.

[01:11:15] Let me get that out there. But. They didn’t, they didn’t redact nothing. Nothing’s redacted. And a tastic police department documents. It’s, it’s just the documents 

[01:11:25] Alex Tsakiris: [01:11:25] and we have further, uh, you have revealed, and you’re going to talk about it right now, further evidence as the story goes. That would corroborate and seem to be consistent with this idea that they were pulled off of a case that they didn’t think they should be pulled off of.

[01:11:43] And that’s what gets us to Martinez when the same thing happens to him. So who is Edgar Edgar right.

[01:11:52] John Brisson: [01:11:52] Edgar, Ramon Ramon, J Martinez,

[01:11:54] Alex Tsakiris: [01:11:54] who is Ramon J Martinez. And how does he fit into this story?

[01:11:58] John Brisson: [01:11:58] So, remode J Martinez was an exemplary customs officer who worked for the child, uh, pornography division. Um, um, at one time that was headed to, headed by, um, uh, John Sullivan

[01:12:12] Alex Tsakiris: [01:12:12] and basic timeframe is his late

[01:12:16] John Brisson: [01:12:16] eighties.

[01:12:17] Alex Tsakiris: [01:12:17] So it was 1980s he’s working for the customs office. What is the customs office doing? Investigating child pornography?

[01:12:26] John Brisson: [01:12:26] At one time, they did. They don’t anymore. That was ended after the finders and they tried to get another bill passed, uh, by, uh, Todd Lewis representative Tom Lewis in Florida to reinstate the child pornography unit.

[01:12:38] Um. See, but not

[01:12:39] Alex Tsakiris: [01:12:39] John. Whenever I ask a basic question, you jump three steps ahead. You’re in customs. Customs is responsible for stuff that comes in to the

[01:12:48] John Brisson: [01:12:48] trafficking, trafficking, keeping the bad

[01:12:51] Alex Tsakiris: [01:12:51] stuff out, and only letting good stuff in. So it isn’t too much of an, of an extension of those responsibilities to think that they would be.

[01:13:01] Interested in children who are not coming in. I am pornography that violates our laws. If we have child pornography done by somebody overseas that is not supposed to come in. So that might be under the purview of of customs. It was in the 1980s so Martinez was responsible for looking into this and what does he stumble across in Washington DC?

[01:13:26] John Brisson: [01:13:26] So when the Tallahassee information is going on, they contact the, the, you know, the, um, Washington metropolitan police department. Once they find out that the finders are involved up there, Washington. So the Washington metropolitan police department contacts the FBI, they contact the customs agency. So remote J Martinez goes to investigate.

[01:13:47] The finder’s warehouse and the finder’s apartments buildings on w street. And so during his investigation, which I later corroborated, I’m the first person that I know of to get his partner, Bob Harold on the record with what he found. And Bob Harold. Okay. So we’ve had Ramon J Martinez report of events investigation.

[01:14:06] It’s been on the internet system, the days of used net. Back in the 90s

[01:14:10] Alex Tsakiris: [01:14:10] big picture. What does that report say and then tell me about what his is.

[01:14:13] John Brisson: [01:14:13] The only reason why I want to get to that, cause I’m going to disclose something here that is not previously known. It’s very important. Bob. Harold’s report of investigation used to be on Usenet too.

[01:14:22] It’s completely scrubbed off the face of the internet and does not exist. I cannot find it. Bob Harold tried to find a, he can’t find it. He doesn’t have a copy of it. It does not exist. So they set up the narrative of what I’m about to tell you about Ramon J Martinez, that he was alone Nutter, that he did this to advance his position and costumes and that he made it all up and try to bury any corroborating evidence that the two, his report of what he found and that is complete and honor bullcrap.

[01:14:53] Alex Tsakiris: [01:14:53] Okay, well, it’s again, we’re going to get back though. Like I said, it’s bull crap because. The Tallahassee police in 1987 arrested these guys in the park and there were all these kids that were severely mistreated, and the kids tie back to Washington DC. I mean, there’s directive. That’s why the Tallahassee police was even able to tell Martinez.

[01:15:18] And as you point out, Washington. DC police say, Oh yeah, that place we investigated that

[01:15:24] John Brisson: [01:15:24] years ago and we’ve been investigating it ever seen over the past couple of years because of reports that have called in and stuff like that. It’s nothing new. So, so again,

[01:15:32] Alex Tsakiris: [01:15:32] that, that, that false narrative, I mean, we can spend some time on it, like you’re saying, to let people know that it’s a false narrative, but we don’t have to overemphasize it because it’s just.

[01:15:40] Fricking ridiculous given everything we know. So now w what does Martinez his report actually say? Cause we’re have reason to believe that that’s more truthful than the false narrative. And how does you know Bob Harold, who you talk to directly, what are those reports. Collectively, let us know.

[01:16:03] John Brisson: [01:16:03] So, um, first they raid the w street apartments.

[01:16:07] And in there they find finder’s numbers, Stuart miles, Silverstone in a room that contain many computers, printers, and contained numerous documents. Now, when I talked to, to, um, Harold, he told me that. Um, a majority of the equipment, they found some things there, but a majority of the computer equipment was w w was taken out, um, that, that, that before they had gotten there, someone had tipped them off before they had raided.

[01:16:32] Uh, the apartments and, uh, the warehouse, we talk about the warehouse rate, uh, later. Um, and the computers that were in the warehouse where they had equipment in there too, as well, was completely gone.

[01:16:44] Alex Tsakiris: [01:16:44] Okay. And where else did they, where else did they read?

[01:16:47] John Brisson: [01:16:47] Uh, they did the finder’s warehouse, um, in Washington, DC.

[01:16:51] They rated both places. So

[01:16:53] Alex Tsakiris: [01:16:53] in, where do they find the, the video video? Uh,

[01:16:58] John Brisson: [01:16:58] that would be in the warehouse, but I want to find what they say. It’s major stuff that they found in the apartment first. Okay. So they found documents supposedly containing instructions on obtaining children for unknown purposes.

[01:17:08] They found telex messages with MCI account numbers. Um, they found one tail. It’s ordered a purchase of children, uh, of two children in Hong Kong to be arranged from a contact in the Chinese embassy in Hong Kong. Uh, they found a Chinese national, uh, Jean seeing a Wong, uh, who was an anatomy student at Georgetown university who was staying there too also.

[01:17:30] And of course. Uh, Mary, um, who was Jordan Rico to the Tallahassee police department. She claims that, you know, there were a lot of Chinese people that were around the apartments and they actually taught her to count the 10 and Chinese. So this does seem to

[01:17:43] Alex Tsakiris: [01:17:43] be also fun. That’s fantastic information. It’s horrible information, but I’m glad the to share all that.

[01:17:50] Don’t they also find information on like kind of instruction manuals and how to groom and. Uh, you know, part of what pornographers and child molesters would, would have other consistent information with that.

[01:18:02] John Brisson: [01:18:02] They find books on mind control and they find books on, um, the ma PA papers about the impregnation of the women in the finders, uh, group operation.

[01:18:15] Um,

[01:18:15] Alex Tsakiris: [01:18:15] because as horrific as this is, people should know that. The, uh, among some of these groups that commit these horrible crimes against children, they’re done at a very young age. So newborns. Uh, infants, you know, it’s just prime property to this kind of evil

[01:18:34] John Brisson: [01:18:34] group. And they also found a summary of the events of Tallahassee that was being communicated by the finders.

[01:18:40] Uh Oh operation from the ma. Cause there’s two vans. There was a group of fighters, members who were not caught. Uh, separate from Hammerman and Hollowell, um, that, that had, you know, went back to, uh, some of them went back to D C afterwards, so they were sending, uh, information from a second TRS 80 computer that was found outside of, um, the university of Florida.

[01:19:01] Um.

[01:19:02] Alex Tsakiris: [01:19:02] Bingo. So we have a direct connection between the Tallahassee case and again, it’s like that’s what piss me off about the false narrative stuff. I’m, why do we even have to talk that much about it?

[01:19:14] John Brisson: [01:19:14] But another interesting thing that I want to get out is there was a series of instruction were also found how to continue moving children to avoid police detection.

[01:19:20] Well, why, what children, what children other than the six children where they, you know, the, the, those children were. Put into protective custody. And so you have a detailed summary of events of what happened in Tallahassee. Why would you get orders about, you know, moving children to avoid police detection after that?

[01:19:39] What sense does that make?

[01:19:40] Alex Tsakiris: [01:19:40] So we have an incredibly creepy evil in the, in the way that, that anyone would account for it. And we’ll talk about extended consciousness. Maybe we’ll even talk about Christianity and Satanism and all that stuff. But this is evil, right? So this is, anyone would say, anyone says this is evil.

[01:19:57] These are defenseless human beings at such a tender age.

[01:20:02] John Brisson: [01:20:02] There are being robbed of their innocence.

[01:20:04] Alex Tsakiris: [01:20:04] Their lives are destroyed. It’s not innocence. Their entire lives are destroyed, their psyche is destroyed, and then they’re adding on. They’re adding onto it mind control and all this other horrible, horrible, horrific stuff.

[01:20:15] How does that connect to our United States government? Because it does directly and you have proof of it and we need to get that proof out there. And so people

[01:20:23] John Brisson: [01:20:23] understand, I do want to say about the warehouse real quick, that they did find a doctor nation center. They found video equipment to, um, to film.

[01:20:31] They found jars of urine and feces in the residential area. Um, so the warehouse, you know, like I, when I talked about, um, the information with, um. Uh, Harold, he mentioned that they had computer equipment there, um, that they were tipped off beforehand. The night before that they had, um, Chinese witnesses who owned a warehouse next to the finders warehouse that they were loading equipment and boxes and boxes into vans the night before the raid occurred.

[01:21:00] So, so what tipped them off.

[01:21:03] Alex Tsakiris: [01:21:03] Right. Which is important to know, but we have enough information there to sync them a million times over and put them way, way down where they need to go. So imagine, again, this is a law enforcement investigation. Um, Martinez and Harold are there with the rest of their investigators.

[01:21:27] It’s a raid. We’ve seen him on TV. We know this is what this is like. But this raid only goes so far because again, they get the tap on the shoulder, right?

[01:21:36] John Brisson: [01:21:36] Well, the information disappears. All of the, when, when, when Martinez and Harold go to review the information, you know, the telex is the documents that they had found.

[01:21:45] When they go to go look at the evidence, it’s gone. It’s, it’s miraculously disappeared. It cannot be found. And then, um, uh. Well, Martinez meets with a source off the record that, you know, pretty much tells them that’s it. Nothing that can be done, not, you know, further investigations going to happen and, um, nothing happens on it.

[01:22:11] Alex Tsakiris: [01:22:11] Yeah, there’s the link to the CIO. How do they understand the link to the CIA? How do they understand this is linked to the CIA and the FBI.

[01:22:18] John Brisson: [01:22:18] Um, and the new, uh, documents that were released by the FBI fall, um, the CIA was investigating, uh, the finders, um, w well, within the 1960s, uh, Marianne Petty’s wife, Isabel petty, worked for the central intelligence agency as a secretary.

[01:22:34] He put her in there to gain information from the CIA. The FBI was investigating the finders as early. As the late 1960s, um, the early 1970s as well. Um, Toby Tarell worked for a company called future enterprises where future enterprises as computer training company,

[01:22:52] Alex Tsakiris: [01:22:52] who’s Toby Toro,

[01:22:53] John Brisson: [01:22:53] he was, uh, very high up within the, um, finders operation.

[01:22:58] His name is Robert Gardner, Tarell, and he was Marian Petty’s second in command.

[01:23:03] Alex Tsakiris: [01:23:03] What other evidence do we have? The finders or operations slash cold. Had connections and was part of this brownstone operation that was ongoing. Inside of both the FBI and the CIA. Cause as we established early on, there is an irresistible desire for these intelligence organizations to use this exploitation of children regardless of who’s doing it.

[01:23:29] In this case, these horrific finders finders. Group, they still want the kids so that they can entrap people and blackmail them. So how do we establish that that connection really did happen

[01:23:44] John Brisson: [01:23:44] because of the equipment that was found at the warehouse as well. Them also taking . Supposedly video cassettes and pictures out of the warehouse that contained child pornography that Martinez and Harold never were able to look at again, uh, to verify that.

[01:24:01] However, there’s many news reports that those pictures were solid as they carried amount in plastic bags as evidence. Um, as well as, uh, uh, in Toby Tyrrell’s book, the game caller, and I have not talked to Athena Varonis yet, former FBI agent, but I will talk with her. He says that she told him. That, you know, cause he was, you know, she shows up and she, well, she calls him at future enterprises office wanting to talk to him.

[01:24:26] And he goes, okay. So he, cause he’s hiding out there at first. So he meets her down there and so they talk. And so she pretty much tells him that, you know, everything will pretty much be kept on. You know, don’t worry, be kept on a raps. Um, that’s not her exact quote that’s used in the book, but it’s, it’s to that.

[01:24:45] And so, you know. When I’m Athena Veronese is when all, when she goes to see the evidence that, um, Ramon Martinez had found and she goes to, um, uh, you know, investigate the warehouse and the, um, um, the apartment buildings afterwards, she says she finds nothing and makes out that Martinez is a wire. So they were bearing, FBI was burying it.

[01:25:13] From the get go. Um,

[01:25:16] Alex Tsakiris: [01:25:16] what other information? So that’s circumstantial evidence. It’s good. What other evidence do we have linking Martinez to CIA or FBI programs.

[01:25:30] John Brisson: [01:25:30] What do you mean? I mean, other than Clements giving the testimony that, you know, um, the customs agents were told by, uh, the intelligence operations to stand down on the second day of their investigation of the, uh, of the, uh, uh, warehouse and apartment.

[01:25:46] Alex Tsakiris: [01:25:46] They’re told, uh, again, I’m, I’m, they’re told, if I remember correctly, and I could be wrong, cause you know, you’re the principal investigator. I just think you have an overflow for information in your head. They’re told directly that this is CIA operation. Don’t go

[01:25:58] John Brisson: [01:25:58] there. Yes. They’re told directly to CIA operation in the stand down.

[01:26:02] Yes.

[01:26:02] Alex Tsakiris: [01:26:02] W w who is told, when are they told

[01:26:05] John Brisson: [01:26:05] how to, customs agents were told this by testimony of Henry Clements, who was an investigator, both Glendale and the finders and who Ramon J Martinez had, you know, mentioned that he respected, um, climates, uh, in his whistleblower complaint, um, to give, you know, Clement’s credibility.

[01:26:22] He was told through his investigation that the customs agents were told during the investigation that were, you know, the lesser agents not. Um, Harold and Martinez, but the other agents that were there too as well, we’re told that this was a CIA operation were told to stand down. Um, just like the reports that were the metropolitan police department reports that were secret, that were, you know, declassify um, that, that the, uh, detective, um.

[01:26:47] Uh, John Stitcher and Jim Bradley, Jim Bradley, you mentioned that there are connections to the central intelligence agency in his report, but however that they were, um, uh, tangentially, um, and, and that they were using the finders to disseminate inaccurate information. Um, that was the only involvement that the CIA had with the finders, that they would give them an accurate information to disseminate to.

[01:27:11] People, uh, kind of disinformation campaign, um, and John Stitcher, who we don’t have his full report. Um, but I do have his, um, I do have his, um, chronology from the metropolitan police department. There was unredacted that Henry Clemons gave to me, and I’m the only person with that copy that I know of that States that, um, Marianne petty had passports to North Korea in USSR.

[01:27:37] In Vietnam, uh, through the 1950s, throughout the 1980s, which would have been almost impossible to have said passports would have returned back to the United States soil after visiting those places without having some sort of higher end connection, uh, to an intelligence agencies, which is listed in that chronology.

[01:27:53] Alex Tsakiris: [01:27:53] John, you pre, you keep bringing up these connections to a communist foreign powers, China and North Korea and stuff like that. Why do you think that’s important? How do you think that fits into the story? I don’t think you’re trying to, uh, disparage Chinese people personally.

[01:28:10] John Brisson: [01:28:10] No, no, no, no. I’m just saying that’s where, that, that’s just what the evidence shows in that.

[01:28:16] But

[01:28:16] Alex Tsakiris: [01:28:16] what are your suspicions in terms of how these links. Work well, how is the game? I mean, the people is, they listen to this, they’re there like you are. They’re saying, give me the evidence, given the evidence, but then they’re switching to the other side and goes, what’s the big picture? Why? Why North Korea?

[01:28:31] Why these other things? And it’s because there’s this rural

[01:28:34] John Brisson: [01:28:34] job trafficking usually through a lot of those child

[01:28:37] Alex Tsakiris: [01:28:37] trafficking. It’s worldwide

[01:28:39] John Brisson: [01:28:39] trafficking arms. Tremoring

[01:28:41] Alex Tsakiris: [01:28:41] partnering with organizations. Governments, uh, intelligence organizations that have greater freedom and control to do whatever the heck they want to people to become allies in evil deeds.

[01:28:58] John Brisson: [01:28:58] Yeah, I mean, very much so. So they, you know, to, to facilitate all of this. It can’t just happen within the United States and above itself. You have to work with foreign intelligence agencies and foreign governments. Uh,

[01:29:08] Alex Tsakiris: [01:29:08] you don’t have to, but it’s a great cover. Right?

[01:29:10] John Brisson: [01:29:10] I’m well, yeah,

[01:29:12] Alex Tsakiris: [01:29:12] I move it to China and now it’s buried.

[01:29:14] You can’t get to it. It’s just like, if I move it outside of the government into some private contractor. Diane core or whatever. Now it’s harder for you to

[01:29:22] John Brisson: [01:29:22] get at it. Connections to Jeffrey Epstein, you know about that. So,

[01:29:26] Alex Tsakiris: [01:29:26] so are there any parallels between, there are obviously between finders and Jeffrey Epstein and what we see in this suspicion that we have, that this is a Brown stoning operation intelligence.

[01:29:40] Clearly there’s all the links to Massaad there, but there’s also links to the CIA with the Epstein case. Right.

[01:29:46] John Brisson: [01:29:46] Yes, very much so. So I mean, with Robert Maxwell and  Maxwell, Robert Maxwell being a term, do you know the Israelis a super spy for the massage? Um, I mean that with every brownstone operation where there’s Franklin or, or, or, um, Epstein or the finders.

[01:30:02] You have connections to foreign intelligence agencies and connections to heads of state of, of foreign governments, or even the governments of your own, uh, or intelligence agencies of your own country. And I think, you know, they cooperate with one other, exactly like you said a minute ago, Alex is, is to kind of, you know, I can only investigate really so much what happens in the United States.

[01:30:20] I can’t really look into the massage connections very easily and, you know, freedom of information requests and it all, you know, over there in Israel and try to get any information of certain connections and maybe have our China. You know, how, how am I going to petition the Chinese government to release any information about the finders over there, or any investigations of finders occurred by the Chinese government or Russia.

[01:30:39] So it makes it more difficult because when you’re trying to, you know, connect, you know, attract down these leads to them being connected to other parts, you know, other governments and other officials and everything like that, it’s almost next to impossible other than, you know, the . The only information that we have really about this comes from law enforcement.

[01:30:56] Yes. Law enforcement is able to do that some if it’s not buried or they’re told to back off. You know that you’re able to get some information from that, from law enforcement. Ascertain. But as someone like me trying to be investigative researcher to get that information, it’s not impossible. It’s all, I mean, it’s, it’s hard enough to get information from my own government, let alone foreign governments.

[01:31:17] Alex Tsakiris: [01:31:17] So you’re writing this book on the finders, cult. Slash. Operation. Do you have a working title at this point?

[01:31:22] John Brisson: [01:31:22] No, I do not.

[01:31:24] Alex Tsakiris: [01:31:24] Where do you think. This book is going to take you. What is the angle on the book? What are you trying to, at the end of the day, what are you trying to reveal?

[01:31:35] John Brisson: [01:31:35] The biggest thing that I’m trying to do with this book is as a way to clear Ramon J Martinez.

[01:31:41] Um, and that he has been slandered by multiple people within the media. Uh, multiple people trying to interview. Uh, there’s a guy trying to make a documentary, uh, named Tyler rabbit. You interviewed many finders members and you interviewed Ramon J Martinez and everything, and he’s trying to push the narrative that there’s nothing to see here, that there were no intelligence connections or anything like that.

[01:32:02] The basic narrative, and the fighters were just a progressive coal. And so, you know, Ramon J Martinez, who lost everything, you know, the, the, the, with the, he, you know, the, the customs department railroaded him. Um, you know, I mean, they, they, when you read the whistleblower complaint, I mean, they shut him down.

[01:32:19] They, they, you know. Destroyed his career. You know, they really caused him a lot of heart shape, a heart hardship and grief just being a whistleblower. So if this book is my main objective with this book, other than to get down to the bottom of what really happened is to clear Ramon J Martinez is name the best of my ability because you know.

[01:32:41] People still to this day, they throw the finders out because they’re like, Oh, Ramon J Martinez, he’s just a right wing militia Nutter. And you know, and that’s one of the biggest problems that we have of all this, trying to show a body of evidence that this, that this occurred, that, that the CIA was involved or government was involved with the finders.

[01:32:59] That Ramon J Martinez was an honest man who tried to do as best as a whistle blower to bring this information out. The public, and that’s what’s important into the end of the day. And also to try to find out the scope, the children that were victims. Um, I will say this, when you go look at the children on, and I don’t recommend anybody doing this visit investigative journalist.

[01:33:19] I have, when you go try to track down the children that were listed in the report. They do appear to be, at least at first glance from social media, do appear to be well adjusted. Um, now I don’t know more than that. Tyler Ravis says he’s going to release interviews with the children who are grown up now.

[01:33:40] Um, and I’m going to try to interview them some myself, uh, to see how they’re doing and get their sides of things. Um, but that does appear to be one thing that. From my evidence has shown it’s when the fighters disbanded, if they ever did in the late nineties and two thousands that when they, when those parents, most of them broke away from the cult supposedly that the children in their modern adult lives as of now, at least from some, and it’s on my list to try to interview them.

[01:34:19] They do seem to be. Hopefully, hopefully. Okay. Did the best of their ability of what they, you know, were dealt with during the finders?

[01:34:31] Alex Tsakiris: [01:34:31] Yeah. I don’t even know how we, how we go there. We, I don’t know  I’m very

[01:34:42] I don’t like that. I don’t know how we would ever determine that. You know, as I mentioned, very early on, you have kind of sent me, um, this journey, at least the last leg of it, I guess I started a couple of years ago and, and then on it. But you know, in interviewing Annika Lucas, who I just shared with you, who was, you know, her story and people will have heard it by the time they hear this interview.

[01:35:12] She was sold into sex slavery by her mother at six years old. And one of the things I thought that was interesting cause I want to return to the satanic part of the ritual abuse. So people have heard my interview with Anika and she says how she was, you know, just, it’s horrific. The rape over and over and over again, but event eventually they were going to kill her.

[01:35:39] And then I’m asking her and I said, well, some people like Russ does, Dar who I talked to also, who has worked with. Hundreds of victims of satanic ritual abuse. So he has people that come and say it was satanic. They were wearing ropes, they were drawing these. Inverted pentagrams pentagrams in blood, and you know, all this other, this other symbology.

[01:36:05] And they were repeating these satanic phrases, and he has, as an investigator who was worked with the police, he says, this is the evidence you can make with it what you will, but this is what these people are reporting. So the interesting thing for me is I’m talking to Annika and Annika. You can watch her, you know, 500,000 viewed.

[01:36:27] YouTube when she talks about this horror of child sex trafficking that you went through, but the terms are even softened. It’s child sex trafficking. It’s not repeatedly being raped and then being, being on the block to be murdered and is spared. But here’s the point I was leading up to. I said, well, what about the satanic part?

[01:36:49] Cause I just talked to Ross and he’s big on the satanic. She goes, Oh yeah. It was satanic ritual abuse, and I was like blown away, like my stomach drops because here’s somebody and she presents as this kind of European, and she doesn’t like to throw that out there, but when she’s pushed, she says, of course.

[01:37:08] Yet it’s satanic. It’s all satanic. So I think we need to process that in. In a way that gets us to that next level because you’re Christian and I don’t respect any one’s religious beliefs. I’m sorry. I don’t respect your religious beliefs. I don’t respect anyone’s religious beliefs because we’re not supposed to.

[01:37:33] We’re just supposed to follow the data. We’re not dead supposed to have it. You don’t need me to. Be kind to you or not poke at you because you have certain beliefs. You put your beliefs out there and you have to back them up and that’s what everybody does. But I want to get to that next. You are going to be attacked.

[01:37:52] And you know this, and I’m sure you already are as a crazy Christian who is trying to jam everything back into a Christian narrative. And I want to talk. So that’s one of the reasons I want to talk about this and talk about, you know, we’ve just had a two hour discussion. And you didn’t bring up Christianity.

[01:38:11] Oh, you just said this document followed by this document, followed by this police report, followed by this investigator who I talked to who said this. So that’s not been your agenda, but now from us as a skeptical guy, I want to know why the hell do you want to jam this back into. A Christian narrative.

[01:38:36] Why do you think it has to be one of the things that really kind of. Pissed me off. John is in the email you sent me, you kind of said, yeah, as long as it all leads back to Christianity. Why? Why does this evil have to lead back to this narrow dogmatic little book that is just one description of what this universal evil that’s from reported by every culture throughout time, whether Christian or not.

[01:39:05] Why do we need to jam it back into the Christian narrative?

[01:39:10] John Brisson: [01:39:10] Okay. You have atheist reporters and investigative journalists. For example, George from cab wrote Dave McGowan, who have reported, say, tannic ritual abuse. People who are either agnostic or don’t believe in God or religion, period.

[01:39:33] Definitely don’t believe in Christianity. Like myself, they came to the same conclusion that they’ll lead to participating in, say, tannic ritual abuse. Satan primarily being the adversary in the old Testament. And the adversary and the new Testament. So my question to you is, to throw it back is yes, I might frame it as such because of my own personal faith and my own personal beliefs as being, say, tannic ritual abuse.

[01:40:03] And I’d ask you, well, why don’t you frame it as, why do you use the term say Titanic when? Why wouldn’t you just use ritual abuse? Why wouldn’t you just use religious ritual abuse? Those people look at it objectively who are not Christian and see it as such with the inverted pentagrams, the references, the Satan that the world elite use.

[01:40:28] So if they look at it as that, then I mean

[01:40:35] Alex Tsakiris: [01:40:35] I got you.

[01:40:35] John Brisson: [01:40:35] Their objective is they are as jacked as there cause they’re not looking at it through my lens. Now granted, do I do my best to look at it objectively outside of my face? Yes. Do I believe ultimately that this all leads to. Christianity to some degree or Judaism as far as the beliefs in Satan, the beliefs of good and evil, God versus Satan.

[01:40:57] Yeah, I do, but someone like Dave McGowan, that’s not the case. Some of my George and cab that’s not the case. Now, Roz did his Dar. Yes. He’s a Christian, so he’s gonna look at it through that lens. But these other people who are not are also because the elites practice it in such that regard. Look at it and through that lens too as well.

[01:41:20] So again, what do you have to

[01:41:22] Alex Tsakiris: [01:41:22] say? Thank you. Thank you for teeing up an excellent question in this vast. Unplowed field that exists out there between atheism and Christianity or some other dogmatic religious belief. John , you know, I have a ton of respect, like I’ve already said, for the work that you’ve done.

[01:41:46] Here’s where I’m coming at it from, and you know this from having listened to some of the skeptical episodes. Yes, of course. I have no doubt that Christ consciousness. Is real. I don’t know what Christ’s consciousness is, but I accept the scientific data that leads us to the conclusion that consciousness does exist.

[01:42:09] It’s real. We are not biological robots in a meaningless universe. And the other data that you just get to scientifically, which is that. Near death experience is real, right? So we have the best cardiologist in the world and resuscitation experts and radiation oncologist, 200 peer reviewed journals, and they’re all telling us the same thing.

[01:42:33] That consciousness seems to survive bodily death in a way that completely blows our understanding of this brain-based consciousness apart that then leads us to taking seriously. The accounts of the near death experience. Now, many of those accounts as you know, point to the reality of a Christian experience.

[01:43:00] But if you take the full body of that knowledge, it points to that not being an exclusively true club. What seems to emerge, and this isn’t a huge leap, but it’s just where the data has taken me, is that. We are co-creators. Of reality that there is this greater good, there is this light that we can access and we are co-creators of it.

[01:43:28] So of course, Christianity and in particular, Christ consciousness, which I maintain is all any Christian can ever talk about because the books are hopeless. No. Uh, intelligently thinking. Christian really relies on. Literal scripture. It just doesn’t make sense. Invariably, what they say and what I respect is I have a personal relationship with Jesus, which means I have a personal relationship with Christ consciousness.

[01:43:59] Great. I have up on the screen multiple people who I’ve interviewed,

[01:44:02] John Brisson: [01:44:02] well, let me, let me, let me, let me interject. I used to have your train of thought. I used to be Gnostic in my beliefs, but when I

[01:44:10] Alex Tsakiris: [01:44:10] started saying,

[01:44:12] John Brisson: [01:44:12] you didn’t price consciousness blends in to narcissism

[01:44:18] Alex Tsakiris: [01:44:18] early,

[01:44:18] John Brisson: [01:44:18] don’t be awesome. I’ll go there.

[01:44:20] Theosophy when the world, okay, so who, fuck. Okay, so when you have the same people that practice a tannic ritual abuse. Okay. The same people. All right. And majority of them have thi of theosophical beliefs. Okay. And the same, the same people that we have to like Albert pike, Madame Blavatsky, this, that set up when you go from them and you go to Croley and from them you go to L, Ron Hubbard, you, I used to have that same belief that you did.

[01:44:54] But when actually

[01:44:56] Alex Tsakiris: [01:44:56] my belief is that, that you had the same as, what do you think it is?

[01:44:59] John Brisson: [01:44:59] I’m price conscious.

[01:45:01] Alex Tsakiris: [01:45:01] I basic in a near death experience. So tell me where I got off the trail on something other than near death experience science.

[01:45:08] John Brisson: [01:45:08] Because the same people that I’m calm batting with that are direct forces of evil, they propagate the same belief that you are.

[01:45:18] And I didn’t realize that it’s, for example, Rockefeller, for example, do you know Rockefeller funded the nag Hammadi library. Okay. And we would have, okay, here’s another, here’s another example, and you go farther down. And I’m not saying that you’re doing it on purpose. Alex. I’m not, I’m not,

[01:45:34] Alex Tsakiris: [01:45:34] I’m not even doing it.

[01:45:35] I’m strictly you and you can follow. I have 400 publish interviews. I’m doing it from near death experience accounts. It doesn’t have anything to do. So what, what, you know, if we’re going to push that where we’re, I think what you’re saying is that there is some malevolent force out there. That has somehow influenced the near death experience science to come out and tell the same story that, uh, you know, these other Gnostic people have told.

[01:46:04] That’s the only way I could make sense of what you’re saying.

[01:46:06] John Brisson: [01:46:06] Otherwise, I’m just following

[01:46:08] Alex Tsakiris: [01:46:08] up, just calling the data.

[01:46:09] John Brisson: [01:46:09] It’s similar to ritual CTA can abuse and that they’ve co-opted. Okay. For example, in the Glendale Montessori school

[01:46:16] Alex Tsakiris: [01:46:16] case, but hold on before you go to Glendale, is that what you’re saying is you’re saying that the devil is in the near death experience research trying to deceive us, trying to draw us away from the Bible?

[01:46:29] John Brisson: [01:46:29] It’s not that the devil makes it more simplistic. It can be humans, subjective reality experiences. Well too. It could be a combination of the both. Yes.

[01:46:41] Alex Tsakiris: [01:46:41] Why? Why do you have to come to that conclusion? Why do you have to have this a priority belief that it has to jam back into this discredited book that you call the Bible?

[01:46:53] John Brisson: [01:46:53] How is the Bible discredited?

[01:46:55] Alex Tsakiris: [01:46:55] Well, that’s a whole other, that’s a

[01:46:56] John Brisson: [01:46:56] whole, I mean, that’s a huge discussion, but I mean, the Bible is so totality. I’m not talking about soul script Torah, I’m not debating that. But the Bible has whole totality. So the whole history of the Bible. It’s a complete and utter fabrication.

[01:47:11] Now, you could say new Testament, at-will Roman, and I would argue that there’s many scholars who say out, well, it doesn’t. I mean, I’ve even researched Atwell’s claims on masonry. Okay. And he references the Albert Pike’s three world, a world war letter that Albert Pike’s supposedly written, that you can’t trace back to pike himself writing that letter at traces back to.

[01:47:35] Carr’s book ponds in the game as a fabrication. Again, with at-will, if he can’t do the basic fact checking that I did over two hours to try to, with his claims of masonry being, you know, construct of Nazi-ism where it seems to be Nazim seems to be more complex than just masonry being involved, that the Jesuits were involved, the theosophists were involved.

[01:48:00] How can I, if he’s wrong, there. How can I take what other scholars have said at wills, completely full of crap about the new Testament and then how he thinks that it’s a Roman construct to pacify the Jews so that they will come under Roman leadership where we, well in both know that there were more than just the fall of the second temple.

[01:48:22] The first. Roman Zoloft war. There were two more and that they also would have to do with Christianity layer as a problem. Like if you’re going to fabricate completely the new Testament, why wouldn’t you go all the way and establish the papacy, which would later, you know, Constantine would become involved in that as a Roman emperor.

[01:48:42] Why wouldn’t you do that from the very beginning? Why would you just have render under Caesar, which is Caesar’s. And Romans, why would you just have that? Why would it be a complete picture of subjugation to the Roman empire? That’s at Will’s belief is that not that new Testament was falsified so that the Jews would be pacified, you know, into Christianity.

[01:49:05] So they would follow the Romans and, and see them as gods. That’s not his working theory for that. Is it Alex?

[01:49:14] Alex Tsakiris: [01:49:14] So I don’t even know if we can leave this in because it’s so Bible geeky that people might not be interested. But you and I are interested in, we’re here right now, so let’s have this conversation.

[01:49:26] What do you know about Josephus and what do you think Jesse was? One of the things that I think at well says that is incredibly powerfully regulatory to this whole thing is that there really is no reason to believe that Josephus is a historical figure. Do you believe that Josephus is a historical figure, and do you believe the account of Josephus is historical?

[01:49:50] Most people believe it’s historical Atwell’s just questioning whether or not it’s just completely a Roman.

[01:49:56] John Brisson: [01:49:56] I do believe it’s historical only because his grand narrative of the new Testament being a Roman construct is not. Fit the grand scheme of how the Romans persecuted both the Christians and the Jews.

[01:50:08] Like if you’re going to make a book,

[01:50:10] Alex Tsakiris: [01:50:10] look at the grand scheme than John. I

[01:50:11] John Brisson: [01:50:11] mean, grand scheme matters. The grand picture matters in all of this,

[01:50:15] Alex Tsakiris: [01:50:15] but, but we, we’ve got to get done if we’re going to get done and talk dirty, gritty. You know, the reason that Josephus, I don’t think probably existed is he doesn’t make sense as a historical figure.

[01:50:28] As a guy, I paint to think, right? He’s supposed to be the general and Galilee, and he’s supposed to be. The rabbi, and he’s the only guy in history who is a rabbi of all the different, all the different Jewish, uh, sex who aren’t just at each other’s throat. And he thinks I was, I was friendly with all of them.

[01:50:51] And then he goes into a cave. I mean, this is, so you just said, you believe Josephus. So this is just what you’ll see for says, I notice he goes into a cave and you know. 40 guys are there and he’s going to commit suicide. And at the end he comes out as the him and this other guys all know, you know, I change.

[01:51:08] And at this point, and I’ve had interviews, you know, you know, I’ve had debates with religious scholars who’ve studied this stuff, and they all come to the same point. It’s like, this is the important point, and this is the one that I had with, um, is that when Josephus walks out of the cave. He claims that he has had a regulatory experience and that Caesar is the Messiah and that all Jews should follow his understanding of this.

[01:51:41] This is the history. There is no debate about that. That is what juicy FA says. Now, if that doesn’t seem to fit into a narrative that has supportive of a pro. Roman version of things. I don’t know what is. So then the only question is, is Josephus are the writings of Josephus showing up in the Bible. And again, I’ve talked to every biblical scholar.

[01:52:10] They’ll talk around in circles, but at the end they’ll say that Mark clearly had access to Josephus when he wrote the gospel and Mark not being the disciple of Jesus, but the author of the book of Mark. So I, again, there was a detail, I don’t know how you’d get around that.

[01:52:28] John Brisson: [01:52:28] I can’t get around that, but I can still say that.

[01:52:33] Again that just because if that is true and I can’t, I’m not going to say that. You know, there are other books that have been made, hidden, other letters that have been lost, other writings that have been lost. Some of those have been done by the Catholic church. Some of them have, you know, were just lost to, you know, be universal forces or whatever.

[01:52:55] Um, you know, that around the first and second century. But. When it comes down to Christianity and how I’m a label is such is the same question that you had when you asked Opperman it’s just going to come down with faith to me and I can’t prove my faith to you. Just as you can’t prove. You’re a lack of and going more into a scientific base than I can,

[01:53:23] Alex Tsakiris: [01:53:23] but you’re saying all this shit that that just isn’t, that isn’t me.

[01:53:27] I’m breaking it down simpler than that. And you’re reframing it. And Opperman was an idiot for saying what he said. I’d love to play that clip, but it’s just stupid. If you’re a public figure, and ed Opperman does a show. And then for someone to question him about his Christian beliefs and for him to say, well, you know, I don’t, I don’t need, you know, why do you?

[01:53:50] If you’re a public figure, then that’s fair.

[01:53:53] John Brisson: [01:53:53] Again, I understand that. I have no problem with you questioning mine. I have no issue with that whatsoever.

[01:53:59] Alex Tsakiris: [01:53:59] Great. So you know, there’s no protected belief system here, and in the court of public opinion, what you believe if you’re a flat earth or that matters, that matters to your credibility.

[01:54:10] And so what matters to me is what you just said, you, you kind of mischaracterized. Bye. I I told you that my belief in extended consciousness, and again, I’ve got 400 shows that document my long progression into understanding one, that consciousness exists and that the atheistic materialistic mean that we’re, I think is, is purposely.

[01:54:34] Perpetrated in order to prevent us, provide a blockage for us really accessing, accessing extended consciousness and the broader understanding of that. But then you never really responded to to kind of my, not hypothesis, but just my observation. That there was no reason to limit those extended consciousness realms to Christian only.

[01:54:58] And as a matter of fact, you know all the near death experience account. They are not Gnostic in the way that you’re talking about. They just aren’t. You’re mischaracterizing them,

[01:55:08] John Brisson: [01:55:08] but you’re framing it as Christ consciousness. And that is not .

[01:55:12] Alex Tsakiris: [01:55:12] That’s your understanding of of my word, Christ consciousness.

[01:55:16] You can define

[01:55:17] John Brisson: [01:55:17] it as not, so you’re just defining as you’re just defining as human conscious.

[01:55:21] Alex Tsakiris: [01:55:21] No. I’m saying, look, here’s what I’m,

[01:55:24] John Brisson: [01:55:24] here’s what I was trying to say. We have a soul that we have a spirit, that there is an afterlife of some sort. Right. Or am I mistaken?

[01:55:30] Alex Tsakiris: [01:55:30] Mistaken.

[01:55:31] John Brisson: [01:55:31] Okay. What

[01:55:33] Alex Tsakiris: [01:55:33] I’m saying is that I don’t understand consciousness.

[01:55:38] John Brisson: [01:55:38] But I do it is something likely right?

[01:55:42] Alex Tsakiris: [01:55:42] I do understand from the data that it’s obvious that we have an awareness of what we are and that I would call consciousness, and I’m also persuaded by the data that that awareness extends beyond our bodily death. That realm and extends beyond our body. That realm of extension, I call extended consciousness.

[01:56:13] Now, in that extended consciousness realm, it’s people are consistently reporting that they are encountering, encountering all kinds of spiritual beings. Some of them appear to be benevolent guardian angels. Relatives that are seem to be cooperating and helping people in meaningful ways in their life, and they come back and their life is transformed or their life is healed.

[01:56:43] So we have other ways that as just normal common sense people, we would say, gee, that seems like the benevolent. Cooperation of a spirit in an extended realm without jamming that into some fricking Christian or Muslim or Buddhist thing that just seems to be happening. My use of the term Christ consciousness is derived from the fact that people say in that extended realm, they have reported meeting fee of spiritual being that they understand at that time.

[01:57:20] To be Jesus Christ of the Christian tradition of the Bible. So that is the way I’m using Christ consciousness for those specific people that that is their report. I don’t know what to make of their report. So then I’m leaping to the next level and saying, it doesn’t take a genius to say there seems to be good.

[01:57:42] And bad in this extended consciousness realm, we seem to be co-creators of this extended consciousness realm. We can create the good, we can look to the light. We can ascend and do good things with our spirit, or it seems to be the truth. The reality that we just talked about. That we can connect and identify with this need for satisfying this material, uh, existence here.

[01:58:11] This wanting of things, of power, of sex, of money, of control, and this fear of death, this fear of annihilation of this ego little mini me that I’ve created that I don’t . That seems to be so much broader than this narrowly little defined one religion kind of thing. It once assumes the other, I don’t know why we want to try to jam it back in the other, but again, I don’t want to get distracted.

[01:58:44] That is just my read of the data, John. I don’t, I don’t know how one pulls that data apart any differently. I don’t get it.

[01:58:54] John Brisson: [01:58:54] Okay. Let me ask you a question then.

[01:58:57] Alex Tsakiris: [01:58:57] Okay.

[01:59:00] John Brisson: [01:59:00] Explain to me, say tannic ritual abuse without using the Christian lens then of of people saying that inverted pentagrams of you or used Satanism is involved, that they’re invoking demons.

[01:59:13] If it’s not that, then you know, if it’s not that, then I want to know how you see it. Right? Because there are many people who are giving that. Narrative. Great. So

[01:59:30] Alex Tsakiris: [01:59:30] let me give an attempt at it. And the last thing I want to do is sound like I know anything here cause I don’t. But this is a topic that I am going to dive into further and further because again, to me it’s the unplowed field and this whole spirituality extended consciousness.

[01:59:48] I pulled up on the screen. If you can ignore Joe out. Well, cause I know you hate him.

[01:59:52] John Brisson: [01:59:52] I want to point you to . I don’t hate him as a person. I just dislike a lot of his reasoning. 

[01:59:59] Alex Tsakiris: [01:59:59] whatever. I’m going to draw your attention to the book by Richard Smoley, who was on the show, how God became God. One of the things that I think is interesting about this, Oxford trained.

[02:00:11] Theologians or just researcher really, who’s just written all these terrific books and he was very scholarly guy is he goes back and he traces the kind of very early, um, pre Torah Judaic documents. And what he finds is, no, Satan. So he finds all the stories that wind up in the Torah, in the old Testament with Satan in him.

[02:00:40] But he finds him with no Satan,

[02:00:43] John Brisson: [02:00:43] no money. Now let me ask you this, a question about that. Does he bring up Joe possibly being written first and how Satan is shown there has to be to adversary, but as an agent of God to, to challenge Joe, cause I have not listened to an interview or read his books, so I don’t know.

[02:00:58] But I would assume that as one of the conclusions that he makes.

[02:01:01] Alex Tsakiris: [02:01:01] You know, I can’t tell you that off the top of the off the top of my head, but I hope to have him back on, and I will ask him that exact question, but I do remember that he traces this chronology really brilliantly as a scholar and his back.

[02:01:16] He credits the Zori asked her a religion, if you will, as being the first one to introduce this duality of. Good and bad, and he sees kind of a rewriting of the, of the Torah, the old Testament stories, because they kind of worked better to kind of tell this story. But that doesn’t directly answer your question.

[02:01:45] The direct answer for me in your question is, of course, Satan is real. Of course, those Monette violent forces because we are co-creators of that reality can shape themselves into whatever our mind shapes them. This is a UN. No, I don’t know. This idea is repeated over and over and a lot of great spiritual traditions and in a lot of esoteric traditions, and it just seems to be a reality.

[02:02:17] The universe, we are co-creators. So if your thought form goes to Satan. Yes, you will find the connection. And the way I always put it is as below, so above, I mean, can you find creepy people who are want to do horribly. Uh, pathetic psychopathic things. Can you find them in this world? Can you find them where you live?

[02:02:48] Can you find them where I live? You certainly can. Can you go and do drugs with them and do sex acts that are just. Over the top. Can you go find all that stuff here? Of course. Can you like, you know, John Wayne Gacy I think is like a great historic, or no, I think it was, um, who’s the guy in Florida who was just a.

[02:03:14] On the, you know, they made the Netflix movie on, I’m forgetting. You know, the guy

[02:03:18] John Brisson: [02:03:18] for killer?

[02:03:19] Alex Tsakiris: [02:03:19] No, the sorority, the most famous one.

[02:03:22] John Brisson: [02:03:22] Ted Bundy.

[02:03:23] Alex Tsakiris: [02:03:23] Like Ted Bundy and I, I know you’ve heard this story and I heard her not ed opera man, I don’t want to throw it up from an under the bus. He does a lot of really great stuff, but the story I love about Ted Bundy is Ted Bundy has an innocent tannic shit.

[02:03:35] He’s into doing the most evil. He’s connected with some evil spiritual force that is. You know, align with him as he’s done these evil deeds, but is he open to satanic stuff when he encounters another guy along his journey, and I forget the guy’s name and he says, Oh yeah, man, I’ll tell you how to double down on the power that you’re tapping into.

[02:03:58] Here it is. Do this ritual, do this, and Ted Bundy is like. Why the hell not, I mean, I’m already, my soul, if you will, is already at that level. Why wouldn’t I be open to that? I think that ties back to what you’re talking about. The, you know, you go to the party with, uh, with King. You go to, uh, the party with Epstein, you know, you’re already.

[02:04:23] Sunk your battleship, man. So I don’t know. That’s my, that’s my understanding of yes, there’s a reality to it. And you are a co-creator of that reality of the satanic

[02:04:34] John Brisson: [02:04:34] stuff. So let me ask you a question, Alex. Do you believe in a higher power in, in, in, in, in a God or in a creator? I’m just curious.

[02:04:43] Alex Tsakiris: [02:04:43] Well, I may take what I just said.

[02:04:45] John Brisson: [02:04:45] Well, not outside of ourselves. Do you believe in. A divine being that created.

[02:04:55] Alex Tsakiris: [02:04:55] See, that’s the problem with the Christian thing.

[02:04:58] John Brisson: [02:04:58] No, no, no.

[02:05:00] Alex Tsakiris: [02:05:00] Who am I to presuppose that I understand the mind of God.

[02:05:08] John Brisson: [02:05:08] I know. I’m saying, is there a creator separate from yours that’s not just from the Christian lens that is from many different religions,

[02:05:13] Alex Tsakiris: [02:05:13] and I guess that’s my point, John.

[02:05:15] I mean, it’d be combative because you’re. Fantastic buddy, and you got to keep doing what you’re doing.

[02:05:20] John Brisson: [02:05:20] I think just

[02:05:22] Alex Tsakiris: [02:05:22] reaches. I think that overreaches my knowledge, like one of the things I take stock in is the fact that so many people who reach this extended consciousness realm have this download of information, have this all knowing, but then they’re not able to maintain it.

[02:05:41] I don’t think in my, you know, in my physical. Body. I’m able to understand the mind of God in enough to understand what that means in terms of God. What I do think, what am I working things? Is that the secret to the ascent is to always look up. And that answers the question for me. I need to ascend. My soul needs to ascend.

[02:06:11] I need to do good things, have good thoughts. I need to emanate the love that I see coming through these people that are transformed by these experiences. That’s where I need to be. And that’s really simple. It’s just not that complicated. I don’t need to understand God. I just need to. Be more like these people that are, are emanating, all that stuff.

[02:06:38] That seems to be godlike and I need to not do the stuff that all these people do that seem to be emanating this satanic devil, bad stuff. It ain’t that fricking complicated. Yeah,

[02:06:57] John Brisson: [02:06:57] I can’t, I can’t say that you can’t do good. Not, you know, being a Christian, like an atheist kid. Now I’m not saying you’re atheist, but just using that as an example cannot do good works.

[02:07:05] I mean, that happens. Um, but you know, the only, the only difference between me and you and that belief is, is it’s, it’s faith first versus works faith in God versus, you know, works as far as, you know, as far as. Your soul going to the after.

[02:07:23] Alex Tsakiris: [02:07:23] Why would you want to have faith? Why not have doubt? Doubt is the most spiritual thing.

[02:07:30] Faith is decided. I just, you know, want to, I just spoke recently with

[02:07:34] John Brisson: [02:07:34] this one necessarily true. Christian spoke with this

[02:07:36] Alex Tsakiris: [02:07:36] woman who’s in the ramp, the cult, you know, and I kinda told her skeptical inquiry to perpetuate doubt. And she goes, Oh, no, I don’t have any doubt. I know. I know because

[02:07:48] John Brisson: [02:07:48] I, hold on, did you talk to Jay Jay, JZ Knight, the head of the rainfall school of alignment or someone that was in a disciple.

[02:07:57] Let’s talk about that offer this state. Take this part off. I may be saying that, but let’s talk about, let’s talk about that off air. Some. Donald, I’m going to

[02:08:05] Alex Tsakiris: [02:08:05] check. I don’t know what we talked about. All fair. It’s a cult.

[02:08:08] John Brisson: [02:08:08] No, I mean me and you. Let’s talk about it off air. Sometimes their connection is to pushing Q and you know, and them LARPing this stuff since the 1990s and everything and then pushing Trump and we’ll talk about off that off.

[02:08:20] Alex Tsakiris: [02:08:20] But the, the, the, the bottom line to me is. Christianity. You know? Here’s the, I guess the hard, the hard edge question related to this is that, and I think a lot of people would see it this way, so I’m not like uniquely pushing this, but what’s been revealed so far, particularly like the Catholic church thing or this interview I did with Kevin, Annette, former minister for the church Canada.

[02:08:48] All these horrible crimes, evil church against, I mean the pedo Pope, none of that stuff from the optics from the high level. Would lead people to your understanding of Christianity, how, how you try and rescue Christianity from that mess. It fits much better

[02:09:11] John Brisson: [02:09:11] with that. Scott Christianity though he, right.

[02:09:14] Oh, it’s the same as me saying, you know, was your child ever at a daycare or a public school or in school period. You

[02:09:22] Alex Tsakiris: [02:09:22] know, it’s really not. Because the Catholic church is the church. Right? Before a few years ago, there wasn’t even any other Christian Church other than the Catholic

[02:09:34] John Brisson: [02:09:34] church, but from its very inception, it wasn’t like that though.

[02:09:37] That’s the corruption of the, of the, the, the, the, the fruit of the tree. No one’s arguing here now that you’re not going to have bad faith actors within any religion. I mean, you could say the same thing about Islam. You can see things hecka. What about when I did my series. Tracking the abuse throughout all religions and the abuse that occurred in Buddhist temples.

[02:09:56] Buddhism is far from that, but it’s still

[02:09:59] Alex Tsakiris: [02:09:59] that supports that supports what I’m saying. It doesn’t support what you’re saying

[02:10:04] John Brisson: [02:10:04] for that, but it happens and it happens outside of religion too as well.

[02:10:08] Alex Tsakiris: [02:10:08] That’s my point, but that’s my point. Again, this is what Christians don’t get because they’re so, it’s all apologetics.

[02:10:15] It’s all bringing it back and jamming it

[02:10:17] John Brisson: [02:10:17] back. There haven’t been evil things that have happened with .

[02:10:20] Alex Tsakiris: [02:10:20] You’re not, you’re not hearing my point. I’m probably not hearing your point, but here’s my point. Is that. Just optics. Just looking at it from the big picture, like I was talking about in the narrative with, uh, you know, why do we have to explore these silly narratives that the, the guy who’s gonna defend the finder’s called saying, Oh yeah, well, it’s, we’re teaching this three year old animal husbandry, and that’s why we dip their hands in the blood and, you know, made them do it.

[02:10:43] You know, it’s like, that’s a crazy story. So it’s equally crazy to me to say. Oh yeah. Well, all these Christian groups and the largest Christian, uh, the sect of the Colt in, in history, the Catholics seem to be systemically, institutionally involved with , uh, sex crimes against children. But, uh, that doesn’t matter.

[02:11:07] There’s a truer Christianity to behind it. Kevin Annett comes on and says, Oh, yeah, it’s not just the Catholics in Canada. Here, it’s the . Church of Canada and I approve of it. Oh, but that doesn’t shed well, that doesn’t reflect poorly on Christianity. You know, Jesus is still working behind all this. It doesn’t, it just doesn’t really add up.

[02:11:26] It doesn’t really, yeah.

[02:11:28] John Brisson: [02:11:28] Are you an American citizen?

[02:11:30] Alex Tsakiris: [02:11:30] Yes. What

[02:11:32] John Brisson: [02:11:32] about all the crimes at the height. Okay. I believe in the American people as me being an American citizen, I believe in the ideals of the American people, what the American people stand for, you know? But when you look at America as a whole, the founding fathers, majority of them were masons.

[02:11:48] Were Jordy of them practiced. You know, a lot of things that we would find just as a horn today, as, as you know, our leaks do now. Okay, so you’re telling me, well, yeah, at the high, you know, the high, the Christian, you know, belief that you have the Pope, you have, you know, the, the, the crimes of the Southern Baptist church to the CNP, like judge Paul Pressler and stuff like that.

[02:12:12] You have all these scandals within Christianity. Therefore, are you, you know, if there is also good fruits. For example, what about the work that I have done as a Christian or my ma, my best friend’s mother down the street, who’s a Catholic, who has no idea what happens at the top of the Catholic church, but she spends, you know, her weekends, you know, volunteering and, and being a good person and stuff like that and everything 

[02:12:40] Alex Tsakiris: [02:12:40] into my model.

[02:12:41] Then it doesn’t.

[02:12:42] John Brisson: [02:12:42] No, it does it because you’re an American citizen. I’m an American citizen. We know that the American government is. Done horrific crimes, horrific crimes, but yet we still choose to be citizens of this country. And the hope that, you know, one day that the good that the American public have done will outweigh the VAT of what the government has done.

[02:13:01] Yes, there are corruption within God’s church. There’s no. Denying that there’s like, there’s corruption within any religion. So I mean, that’s not the tenants of Christianity and just like, you know, molestation and Buddhist temples aren’t the tenants of Buddhism. So.

[02:13:23] Alex Tsakiris: [02:13:23] Um,

[02:13:23] John Brisson: [02:13:23] for or the, or the, or the ritual abuse that happens in the mix of baths.

[02:13:27] I mean, we take the old Testament, you can Buddhist,

[02:13:31] Alex Tsakiris: [02:13:31] you can throw stones.

[02:13:33] John Brisson: [02:13:33] I just talked about Judaism

[02:13:34] Alex Tsakiris: [02:13:34] right there. I’m right there with you. How about the fact that most Bruta, most Buddhist cults have not, and sex have not been open to the ordaining women? I mean, how do you make any sense out of that? It doesn’t make any sense.

[02:13:48] Again. . We got to wrap things up because you got to go. You’ve been so generous with all your time here, but it does not to me. Just take a step back. It is not, uh, supportive of your exclusively Christian. Only Jesus is orchestrating the whole thing. It’s much more consistent with what I’m saying, which is.

[02:14:11] This stuff isn’t that hard to figure out. We have to ascend. We have to try and raise our soul to that higher consciousness that we all know from it. Early kid, you know the stuff you’re supposed to do it. You don’t need Jesus. It’s like my friend Kevin, and that says.

[02:14:31] John Brisson: [02:14:31] Doing their darndest to frame anybody who’s a Christian like myself, as someone who is just crazy Luda tick insane if there was not some truth within the new Testament.

[02:14:42] Alex Tsakiris: [02:14:42] That’s a ridiculous question.

[02:14:44] John Brisson: [02:14:44] How’s that? Ridiculous. Cause they frame it, as they say, tannic panic. They frame it as crazy Christians. That’s what they frame it. That’s right.

[02:14:54] Alex Tsakiris: [02:14:54] But the, the, the purpose for that is, is more. Again, it’s like all the stuff we’ve talked about here, it’s just more, you know, why do they do, uh, why do they do Brown, Brown stoning?

[02:15:06] Because it advances their agenda. So if your agenda is to control everybody, and if you’re in concert with the most evil, malevolent, spiritual forces, which we don’t understand, which I’m saying, I don’t understand. Do you understand? Cause they’re all. In your thing there. I’m saying I don’t understand them, but I can understand how someone in

[02:15:28] John Brisson: [02:15:28] partnership will understand everything I say.

[02:15:31] Alex Tsakiris: [02:15:31] I can understand why someone in partnership with that would completely object to, uh, to what you’re saying. Cause you’re, you’re, at the end of the day, you’re doing the same thing. I’d be, you’re trying to ascend, you’re trying to raise your vibration. You’re trying to raise your soul, whether you like those terms or not.

[02:15:49] That’s what you’re trying to

[02:15:50] John Brisson: [02:15:50] do to go to heaven.

[02:15:51] Alex Tsakiris: [02:15:51] Yes. So. They’re against it. They’re against me as much as they’re against you. Just because I don’t identify as a Christian.

[02:15:57] John Brisson: [02:15:57] I didn’t say they weren’t. I didn’t say they were not against you in that regard as far as you trying to bring re rituals, satanic abuse, saliva.

[02:16:04] I didn’t say this like Dave McGowan was an atheist and they were against him or Georgia. I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying is nationally though, as a collective, they frame it specifically against Christianity. At least with here in the United States, and you can see it all. So they were the Europe.

[02:16:18] Now your arguments that could be would because those are regional regions where Christianity exists, but there are a satanic ritual abuse cases throughout the globe, uh, staff that are not in Christian areas. So again, I, well, you know, you and I are not going right, are not going to, you know, agree on this and aye.

[02:16:43] Yeah.  we just won’t. I, and I do say the more that you, the more that you investigate satanic ritual abuse, the more just be on the lookout for and just see how many instances where they’re trying to degrade Christianity specifically.

[02:17:02] Alex Tsakiris: [02:17:02] Of course.

[02:17:06] John Brisson: [02:17:06] Um,

[02:17:06] Alex Tsakiris: [02:17:06] when is this book coming out again? Our guest folks has been John Brisson.

[02:17:12] You can find them at. We read the documents, you can find many fantastic interviews. Again, this is the guy who does the research. So many of his interviews that I’ve listened to have been extremely fundamentally instructive for me and understanding this. So our little foray into the Christian debate to me is.

[02:17:34] Completely separate than the solid research this guy is doing. Tell us more about this book when you think, I know it’s a huge project when you think that might be out in how people can follow your investigative work.

[02:17:48] John Brisson: [02:17:48] Um, thank you, Alex, again for having me on skeptical and yeah. Even though we had a great, you know how many contests, yes.

[02:17:55] Debating, um, I still, you know, appreciate you know, your friendship and appreciate you looking into this and everything and, and, um, and yeah, you guys can find me on. Um, we’ve read the documents on YouTube, we’ve read on Twitter. Um, hopefully this book will be out by the end of this year. I got about half of it written about 150, 170 pages, but I’m still trying to track down some more people to interview to the case to be able to get more information about the overall, uh, finder’s nexus.

[02:18:24] Some people that have not been able to fully been able to track down yet. It’s possible sometimes even using Spokio and, and certain, uh, websites to try to track down people can be quite difficult. Uh, but there are, you know, I still want to interview, uh, some of the children hopefully, uh, that were, uh, that were, um, that were, uh.

[02:18:42] Put into custody down there at Tallahassee to try to get some information from the finders. Derek Rose has interviewed Robert Gardner, Toral, and we’ve got an interview with him on there. Uh, just so I want to, you know, ask them questions, try to gain more information and, uh, and also wanted to try to interview a former FBI agent Athenee of erroneous.

[02:19:01] Um, and, you know, so I still have more interviews that I want to do for the book to try to get to ask questions, to try to get more information out there. And hopefully it will be. Tentatively, I’m looking towards the end of this year for it to be out. Hopefully one

[02:19:14] Alex Tsakiris: [02:19:14] of the things I love about your work, like you’re going to interview Athenia.

[02:19:17] I can’t wait. That is not going to be a friendly interview right

[02:19:23] John Brisson: [02:19:23] now.

[02:19:24] Alex Tsakiris: [02:19:24] Most people are not brave enough to do those, you know? So that’s very cool. I hope she probably won’t do it, but

[02:19:30] John Brisson: [02:19:30] you’ve done it all, but I’m going to try

[02:19:32] Alex Tsakiris: [02:19:32] and you’ve done other ones with kind of non friendlies, so that’s, that’s real

[02:19:36] John Brisson: [02:19:36] investigation.

[02:19:38] Yes. Thank you. Alex.

[02:19:39] Alex Tsakiris: [02:19:39] You’re awesome. John. Thank you so much for spending all this time with us, and I’ll try and put this into some form that people can maybe

[02:19:46] John Brisson: [02:19:46] understand. Thank you. Take care

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