Jimmy Falun Gong defines Tin Foil Left and explains why he’s skeptical of UFOs.
Podcast: Programmed to Chill
[00:00:00] Alex Tsakiris: On this episode of Skeptiko a show about the left right Divide. And a show about UFO’s, and a show about why people believe weird things and a show about my epiphany when I realized that all this truth seeking stuffThat I’m so concerned with ultimately has a lot to do with values and beliefs And for me, if I’m in a strip all the way back to values and belief, I got to go to that fire walking self-development giant. Tony Robbins. Here’s the clip.
[00:00:40] Tony Robbins: if I said to you, which would you rather have success? Adventure, outrageousness, love, comfort, or feelings of security. , which would you pick? Some people say, well, gosh, it’s clear to me. I want to absolutely have success. That’s what life is about. Other people go, well, success is nice, but you know, you can succeed and not be adventurous. I want to be an adventurer other go now, Hey, I want to be outrageous.
You’re outrageous. You’re gonna have fun. You’re gonna play. You’re gonna have a great time in life. Other people go well, that’s all nice. But what I want is love. I mean, you can have all those other things, but if you don’t feel love, you don’t have any. I love you. Those are no, no, no, man. I mean, you can be loved, but still not feel comfortable who wants to be loved and be in pain all the time.
All of us in life have learned to take different words that we call emotions and to give them levels of importance
[00:01:31] Alex Tsakiris: Now you might be wondering what that has to do with part two of my interview with Jimmy Fallon gong, who you heard from a couple episodes back. And as I promised, this episode is a little more. Skeptical back and forth, , paradigm collide kind of stuff.
Here’s a clip where Jimmy and I are talking about how his radical left, tin foil left. I should say a term that he coined that is really, I think fantastic about conspiratorially woke people who happened to be on the left here. We are hashing out the issue of class.
[00:02:06] Alex Tsakiris: Because if you look at people who are traditionally on the right, they go, oh, you’re interfering with my Liberty.
Well, , if you look at people on the left, they’re saying the same thing, you know, you are . somehow inhibiting the Liberty of, , disadvantaged groups in a very real way. , , when I hear you talk about class, I’m just, I’m just like thrown back.
Like what the heck does he even mean by class? My identification in terms of class is my grandfather who came over from Greece when he was 14 years old with a $5 bill sewn into his jacket. That’s all he had. , I’m wealthy now, but that’s just two generations.
Isn’t the dimension that we’re really talking about class mobility.
[00:02:51] Jimmy Falun Gong:
Yeah, no, I mean, I think that there’s sort of like this idea that, I mean, not everyone can be like a business owner. Not everyone can be the boss. Like not everyone can move up.
[00:03:03] Alex Tsakiris: And so what do you mean?
[00:03:05] Jimmy Falun Gong: You take something you take well, You take something like labor unions, like we were talking about. And they basically were trying to yeah. Get a larger group of people as possible to have a good standard of living. And then you said that that way they could move up. But like the way I see it is like unions wanted everyone who worked to be comfortable and to receive a fair slice of the pie because they are, those are the people actually working, not the shareholders, not the most of the bosses.
[00:03:38] Alex Tsakiris: So like, no, , that’s not right. I mean the whole principle of the United States and what it’s built on and what really drives it is meritocracy is that people who will deserve it,
[00:03:52] Jimmy Falun Gong: that’s never actually been true though.
[00:03:54] Alex Tsakiris: Exactly. So, but that is the, that is the goal. It’s about the best moving forward. It’s meritocracy. It’s what your show, your show will succeed or fail based on how good it is. No one needs to force people to listen, to program, to chill.
[00:04:11] Jimmy Falun Gong: Yeah. I mean, and I think that I would probably just emphasize in terms of the left right thing, like, yes, Liberty is a huge focus, but Liberty for who like what rights do, if someone’s free to make a million dollars, but they literally can’t.
What, what does that matter if they’re starving?
[00:04:33] Alex Tsakiris: So, as you might remember from last time, Jimmy has a terrific podcast called program to chill. And the last time he was on, we talked about the stuff that he really does so well, these kind of deep dives into history and his unique ability to synthesize these little known facts into some pretty remarkable stories.
So when we got into all this other stuff during that interview, I felt like I needed to break it into a second part.
And what I really want to pull out because it was, as I mentioned, somewhat of an epiphany for me, this. Why people believe weird things, which of course is dependent on who the person is, who says the other person’s beliefs are weird, , but again, the epiphany for me was how maybe this is connected to values in a way that I hadn’t fully considered.
I mean, fundamentally, there’s nothing wrong with saying that security is your number one value. Just like, there’s nothing wrong with saying that success. However you define success is your number one value.
And I guess this is obvious stuff, but I know I’ve put around on it for years and years without ever fully realizing
that those values have a direct through line back to what we think is true.
And that applies to things like left-right politics. As well as it does to a disbelief in left, right. Politics, like I have. it even factors into all the extended consciousness kind of stuff that we talk about on skeptical. Here’s the one from this interview that really sent me on tilt and the head is the topic of UFO’s.
[00:06:15] Alex Tsakiris: This is regarding UFO’s you said, just apply Ockham’s razor. I don’t understand why we’d ever think there could be something to UFO’s when the overwhelming number of sightings occur in Commonwealth countries around air force braces were air force officers trained in psychological operations, specifically try to mislead people about what’s going on.
And I’m like, That just doesn’t connect with any of the reality of UFO’s, which have been studied by a bunch of really, really smart people.
[00:06:49] Jimmy Falun Gong: Like I’m not denying that, you know, things appear in the sky that we can’t explain.
I just think that perhaps the more strict logical explanation would be this specific several bureaucracies, these intelligence agencies, like the air force intelligence that are specifically trying to keep people from knowing their military secrets. And I think at different points, the UFO thing has been for different purposes, like , there’s no continuity with like the quote unquote aliens, which is sort of separate from seeing things in the sky.
[00:07:29] Alex Tsakiris: Actually that’s not right.
. It doesn’t conform to the best data we have. And I’m going to present a little bit of that data right here, because we really didn’t have a chance to do it on the show. And I was somewhat stunned by the whole thing. Anyway.
so let’s dive into it first. It’s always a good idea when you’re trying to rustle something to the ground that is shrouded in para political conspiratorial stuff. Like the UFO thing certainly is. Is to go cross culture, cross time.
Now we did that on skeptical a long time ago when I interviewed Dr. Ardy Sixkiller Clark six. Six color Clark . An anthropologist from Montana state university. Here’s a clip from that interview.
[00:08:09] Dr. Ardy Sixkiller Clarke: when I first came to Montana state university, , I was a director of the center for bilingual multicultural education. And I had gone out to one of the reservations in Montana and the person who helped me out onsite invited me out to dinner. And after dinner, he said to me said, uh, um, do you have some time, I want to show you. And I said, sure. And he took half in the mountains above his village and he parked his car and he reached over and he got a pair of binoculars.
And he said to me, come, if we’re, if we’re lucky, they’ll come. And I said, who are common? He said, well, the ancestors. And so we sat on this folder and we watched the night sky and he told me stories about things that had happened to him in his life of his interaction with stark. Well, I had heard these stories when I was a little girl as well.
And so when I, when I left the reservation that night, all the way back to the university, I was thinking about, I’ve heard these stories, he’s heard these stories, how many other native people have stories to tell.
[00:09:23] Alex Tsakiris: So if you listen to the interview and more importantly, if you read her books, you’ll find that thousands. And thousands.
Of native people had stories to tell about the star people. Lower 48. Alaska Hawaii. Guatemala, Mexico, Honduras.
Stories passed down through generations.
As well as modern contemporary stories.
Of sightings and of contact.
So cross culture, cross time, the UFO. Thing holds up really well. Now the second way to tackle something like this. Is to look for the best evidence, the repeatable evidence, the most reliable evidence that cuts through all the clutter.
And not to digress, but I think there’s kind of a parallel here with the near death experience stuff. . I mean, if you want to know about that stuff. Go to the studies done in hospitals and the cardiac arrest ward, where they interview the people right there after they’ve had a near death experience.
Reliable repeatable accounts. By people we trust. What’s the peril with UFO’s.
For me, it’s the UFO’s and nukes thing.
And the guy who’s done more work on this than anybody else. Like 30 years Hundreds and hundreds of interviews with very highly trusted people, Of course, I’m talking about the work of Robert Hastings, who I recently had an email interview with.
, but rather than include some of the very brief snippets that we had there, I wanted to play for you a clip from his appearance and CNN several years back.
[00:10:53] CNN: CNN’s American morning, . What’s your theory behind what’s going on here with six
[00:10:58] Robert Hastings: documents released via the freedom of information act confirmed that these types of incidents have occurred going back to 1948, uh, the documents describe saucer shaped objects, uh, whose capabilities are vastly beyond anything that we have the Russians have.
I think the logical explanation is we’re dealing with visitors from somewhere else regardless. , there are number of cases. I’ve interviewed over 120 former or retired air force personnel. Who’ve talked about UFO incursions, that missile sites at nuclear weapons storage areas. The incident at Malmstrom air force base Montana in 1967 did involve the appearance of a saucer shaped object above a new nuclear missile launch site seconds later, all 10 of these missiles controlled by this site now.
And, uh, the two officers involved, including former captain Bob solace, who was at the press conference on Monday, by the way, uh, testified that he was sworn to secrecy. Uh, and when told never to discuss this, he kept his silence until 1996. All the gentleman who appeared with me at the press club, uh, believe that the American people have a right to know the facts,
[00:12:03] CNN: but they didn’t necessarily believe that theory about why those 10 nuclear sites were deactivated.
Why. Why do you believe so strongly that that was truly happening and that it was the result of, of UFO’s as opposed to let’s just say a malfunction or a military.
[00:12:22] Robert Hastings: Well, what you’ve just said is not entirely correct. They all agree that there was no technical explanation for what occurred. In fact, the engineering reports from Boeing corporation stated just that in fact, all seven of the persons who appeared with me believe that we are dealing with extraterrestrials.
Some of them stated it explicitly at the press conference, what they do not necessarily agree with. Uh, three of the three of the eight, uh, three of the seven, agreed with me that. Probably, uh, represent these actions represent a signal being sent, uh, I’m of the opinion that whoever our board, these craft are telling us and the Russians, because these things have taken place in the former Soviet union, that humans are playing with fire by possessing and threatening to use nuclear weapons.
That is speculative on my part. I’ve always made that clear, but the persons who were at the sites who witnessed the crash. Uh, say that there is no technology on earth that could account for what they witnessed
[00:13:17] Alex Tsakiris: so the UFO he thinks should be clear. , the evidence is very substantial.
And those who can’t accept it. Are revealing something about their values.
Or maybe to be more exact. What it would feel like for them? If they had to accept the data. And face the paradigm shift that it brings.
Of course, that’s just one person’s opinion and my opinion is clearly biased By my values and my beliefs.
But then that’s the process. We’re all going through. And that’s why I really appreciate Jimmy Fallon gong for engaging in this dialogue. In this way. And I hope the dialogue. Continues. Here’s part two of my interview with Jimmy Fallon gong.
[00:14:07] Alex Tsakiris:
(——) , I like you prefer history that has a little bit of a age to it, a little bit of crust to it because it does settle down and it gives us some distance from it.
Also emotionally, it’s kind of hard to even process that at the same time. The problem with that is, as it moves further and further into the sunset, it’s more prone to being rewritten and irrecoverably rewritten in a way that we can’t get back to it. No one talks about nine 11 anymore. It’s like, it’s gone.
It’s like, no one talks about building seven. What the heck happened with building seven. But you know, one of the points that, that I thought would be interesting to kind of talk about, and I don’t even know that I might even divide this interview into two sections because, or two shows and also, you know, kind of suggest we’d even do a swap cast because
I do one-off interviews with people that I don’t intend to do one-off interviews with, but like the subliminal jihad guys, they don’t like me anymore. Cause I said, Kelly, you’re, you’re a Muslim. How can you defend that? I had opera Minot, op ed, really big tent revival, Christianity.
Right? This is not normal ed. No, that’s not a normal, you know, so it’s like, but I I’m surprised when people are not able to kind of get over that. It just becomes a kind of barrier.
, Stephen Snyder, recluse. I really like him. I respect him. We spent on the show a couple of times. I’ve been on his show once, but I can tell it’s this kind of tinfoil left barrier. I just sometimes feel like I can’t get past. So if we were going to divide this into two shows, I think the second show that I would start with is what’s going on with the tinfoil left?
I mean, what is the, what is that you introduce me to the term? Who is it? What is it? And let’s dissect that a little bit. Cause I think it’s fascinating to me because it’s not where I sit in terms of I’m not interested in left or right. I don’t know who is interested in left or right. It all seems like such a farce at this point, but please start with tin foil left whether or not you identify with it and what it is.
[00:16:35] Jimmy Falun Gong: Yeah, no. And I will say as a disclaimer, like I think that I might’ve come up with the term. I’m sure someone has put those two words together before. And I found myself trying to figure out a easy term because on the part of Twitter that I’m frequently on, there was a, there still is a very large and prominent click called the dirt bag left, which, you know, incorporates it’s several other major podcasts that, you know, I’m not really involved with, but essentially the tinfoil lift is it’s almost like a niche of a niche of a niche because the left in America itself is kind of a subculture kind of a marginal one in some ways.
And then on top of that, there’s sort of like outside of most political parties and even outside of radical left political parties, which are already sort of in shambles in the U S there is a sliver of people who I guess you could say are enthusiastic of radical politics who are also enthusiasts of conspiracy theory and sort of blend the two.
And I would consider myself sort of doing that. Also the subliminal jihad podcasts, I mind games is another, like, I would be remissed. Like I don’t, there’s, there’s probably, uh, a bunch of forgetting, but like, it’s essentially a click of people who are. Going like, hand-in-hand like conspiracy theories trying to meld it onto a leftist analysis that tries to be grounded in material reality, but not necessarily denying certain spiritual things happening as well.
It’s a very weird, almost anarchic space. And it’s like, truly not that large. So I’m not trying to make it sound more important than it is, but
[00:18:44] Alex Tsakiris: I think it is important. I can’t believe you coined that phrase because I’ve run into it again and again. And it kind of catches me by surprise. I think he can throw Opperman in that category.
I mean, he kind of outs himself as that. , Steven, you know, when I ask him those kinds of Stephen Snyder recluse from the farm, I asked him that kind of stuff. And, you know, he says he’s kinda more apolitical or kind of right down the middle, but I don’t know. He seems kind of more left leaning to me in, in a way, I guess, where I’d start with the tinfoil left kind of thing is in what way do you process the reality of a left versus right.
If we were to transition from the first interview we had into the second one, I guess I’d say. Isn’t that the lesson that we get from program to chill is this idea of left, right. Just kind of crumbles. It’s just about power and different people trying to power influence, social engineering control. How does that even matter from a left-right perspective?
[00:19:53] Jimmy Falun Gong: Yeah. I mean, I do think that in some ways the framework can be unhelpful on a number of levels, for sure. But at the same time, I don’t think, like, I do think first and foremost, that things are about power, but it’s like once you have power or like, if you have power, what do you do with it? Any policy you pick arguably goes in a left to right direction.
It’s also just a framework of analysis too.
[00:20:23] Alex Tsakiris: No, I don’t know. I don’t, I don’t get that. To just finish that thought, I just had an interview with a really excellent guy’s written a book. His name is mark Gober and he wrote a book the end to upside down Liberty. And he routes a follow on to a book that he wrote on, on consciousness.
The kind of the skeptical things, consciousness, science, extended consciousness, you know, what’s going on near death experience and all the rest of this. But I thought he did a great shift. He said, look, isn’t the dimension that we want to look at this stuff. Isn’t it really about Liberty? Because if you look at people who are traditionally on the right, they go, oh, you’re interfering with my Liberty.
Well, if you look at people on the left, they’re saying the same thing, you know, you are . somehow inhibiting the Liberty of, you know, disadvantaged groups in a very real way. You know, whether it’s women or African-American age, whatever group, you know, it’s the same thing. Liberty I’d add another, you know, when, when I hear you talk about class, I’m just, I’m just like thrown back.
Like what the heck does he even mean by class? I think about myself. You know, what class am I in my identification in terms of class is my grandfather who came over from Greece when he was 14 years old with a $5 bill sewn into his jacket. That’s all he had. I I’m, I’m wealthy now, but that’s just two generations.
I don’t think of myself as that. So, and it’s like, Isn’t the dimension that we’re really talking about the way, what I think it is when I think of class it’s class mobility. So people on the right who are really identified on the right, who have half a brain say, Hey, it’s about class mobility. It’s about the ability of people to move up.
And then there’s elitist , or some people call them oligarchs and they definitely don’t want that. They want to limit the mobility of the classes. Well, I think it’s the same thing on the left. I mean, traditional leftish politics were like labor unions, labor unions work really in their best sense about class mobility about let’s get you a living wage so that you can move up in the world, not so that you can work forever at the Ford motor factory, but you know, eventually you’ll get enough money and you can do whatever you want to do class mobility.
So I don’t understand the left. Right. It seems like such an op
[00:22:57] Jimmy Falun Gong: yeah, no, I mean, I think that there’s sort of like this idea that, I mean, not everyone can be like a business owner. Not everyone can be the boss. Like not everyone can move up.
[00:23:09] Alex Tsakiris: And so what do you mean?
[00:23:11] Jimmy Falun Gong: You take something you take well, You take something like labor unions, like we were talking about. And they basically were trying to yeah. Get a larger group of people as possible to have a good standard of living. And then you said that that way they could move up. But like the way I see it is like unions wanted everyone who worked to be comfortable and to receive a fair slice of the pie because they are, those are the people actually working, not the shareholders, not the most of the bosses.
[00:23:44] Alex Tsakiris: So like, no, that’s not, that’s not, that’s not right. I mean the whole principle of the United States and what it’s built on and what really drives it is meritocracy is that people who will deserve it,
[00:23:59] Jimmy Falun Gong: that’s never actually been true though.
[00:24:01] Alex Tsakiris: Exactly. So, but that is the, that is the goal. It’s like, you know, the constitution is life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
And then we enslave all these people for a hundred years. And then when they’re, when they’re not enslaved, they get a reprieve for about a year. And then a bunch of people go in and just enslave them again in a different way. And the people in the north say, oh, to hell with it, we’re enough. Without enough of that, slavery may vary stuff, you know, let it go by.
But still, if we don’t have the ideal that we were shooting for, we wouldn’t have a chance. I mean, we would just be mired in just this kind of, you know, it’s like the quote, , People shouldn’t fear their government governments should fear their people. Well, that is what capitalism about is about that’s what democracy is about, but it’s not about, you know, everyone just goes and punches their, timecard at Ford motor company.
It just take , your salary. It’s about the best moving forward. It’s meritocracy. It’s what your show, your show will succeed or fail based on how good it is. No one needs to force people to listen, to program, to chill.
[00:25:12] Jimmy Falun Gong: Yeah. I mean, and I think that I would probably just emphasize in terms of the left right thing, like, yes, Liberty is a huge focus, but Liberty for who like what rights do, if someone’s free to make a million dollars, but they literally can’t.
What, what does that matter if they’re starving? You know, like, so at the end of the day, it’s like, are we trying to get everyone to have enough to eat or are we trying to make it so that there can be a few mine owners who are millionaires and everyone else is stuck in the coal mine, you know, that’s where labor unions come in. So
[00:25:53] Alex Tsakiris: that’s going to be a difficult. Topic to kind of really parse out. We kind of switch off of that slightly, what else are you?
[00:26:03] Jimmy Falun Gong: Well, basically I just, a lot of the history that I’m excavating is basically from a perspective of like the left being sold out by different forces.
And by the left, I often mean like labor unions, like popular democracy. Like there’s a lot of stories of basically these bureaucracies army, big business intelligence agencies, trying to steal the power away from popular democracy, parliament, Congress, you know, trying to undermine labor unions, different political parties.
So I would just say, it’s not that I necessarily try to get hung up on left versus right. But I do think that there is that undermining of democracy that happens that is basically a constant through modernism.
[00:26:56] Alex Tsakiris: Okay. So I’ll tell you what let’s shift the focus a little bit, but in a way I think it’s related and that is this kind of worldview collide kind of thing that I think is so fascinating because I think that’s partly what’s going on with the tinfoil left versus the tinfoil hat kind of truth or community, you know, and the tinfoil left, which is again, fantastic term for you to coin.
I think it’s, I think it’s going to work. I think it’s going to have tremendous legs cause everyone knows immediately what you’re talking about, but this has popped up several times and then I heard it from you as well. And it’s almost like a repeat of the quote. It reminds me of the flat earth stuff.
That’s like, wait a minute. That’s just completely insane. Why are people regurgitating that over and over again? And the way you said it is, this is regarding UFO’s you said, just apply Ockham’s razor. I don’t understand why we’d ever think there could be something to UFO’s when the overwhelming number of sightings occur in Commonwealth countries around air force braces were air force officers trained in psychological operations, specifically try to mislead people about what’s going on.
And I’m like, That just doesn’t connect with any of the reality of UFO’s, which have been studied by a bunch of really, really smart people. Do you want to speak to that for a second before?
[00:28:25] Jimmy Falun Gong: Yeah. Well, I think that it’s not like I’m not denying that, you know, things appear in the sky that we can’t explain.
You know, I just think that perhaps the more strict logical explanation would be this specific several bureaucracies, these intelligence agencies, like the air force intelligence that are specifically trying to keep people from knowing their military secrets. And I think at different points, the UFO thing has been for different purposes, like early on in the cold war.
I think there were probably trying to flush out Soviet spies. I think at other points, it’s performed some very interesting things in culture, you know, in the sixties and seventies and eighties and nineties, I think that there were different iterations of it. And people have talked about how, you know, there were a lot of grays in this certain period.
There, there was like a weird bubble of seeing Pleiadians over in. Period of time, you know, like the first UFO’s we’re all talking about, oh, we shouldn’t do atomic testing. And now they’re talking about like, you know, they’re doing probing. And so it’s, there’s no continuity with like the quote unquote aliens, which is sort of separate from seeing things in the sky.
[00:29:50] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. But what I read, , the overwhelming number of sightings occur in Commonwealth countries around air force bases. I was really surprised to hear that because it just isn’t, it isn’t at all accurate. It doesn’t conform to the real data in the same way that like, so you dig in, you do these fantastic in-depth looks at Nazi Germany.
It’d be like somebody coming along and you talking to them about, uh, Goring and Borman and Hess. And they’re like, who are, who are those people? And you’d go like, wow, this guy doesn’t really know anything other than Adolf Hitler. And I’m not trying to be mean. I’m just trying to say, when you say that, do you know, do you know.
Terry Lovelace’s do you know, Travis Walton is, do you know who Betty and Barney hill are? Do you know who Chris Bledsoe is? I mean,
but the Hills were almost transparently abducted by like intelligence,
not at all. Have you, have you listened to interviews with Betty and Barney Hill’s , relatives, the number one, there’s a history of abduction in that family.
, Betty Hill. I forget her maiden name. Her mother says that she had contact. And so it’s the same story you hear over and over again. But even if you go like the most reliable way, you’d want to look at this is cross culture cross time. Right. So have you ever heard of RD six color? Probably not. Montana state university, uh, native American person.
Not that, that matters, except that she, by virtue of that was able to gain access to a bunch of native American communities that other people maybe couldn’t. So she goes in and she goes, so tell me, and they all just tell her up and down, you know, the star people and the craft and the UFO’s. And she talks to very old people.
She talks the younger people. She talks about stories that are passed around and it’s unbelievable. She publishes this book. You’ve never heard of it because it doesn’t fit into that paradigm. Then she goes and she writes another book. She goes down to central America. She goes to south America. It’s like, when you say the vast majority of these cases are in Commonwealth, overwhelming, you say overwhelming number of sightings occur in Commonwealth countries.
That’s just completely not true. Go to the Coda, YouTube, like the Mexico sightings all over Mexico, Brazil, all over Brazil, all over the world. But across cultures, across time, these things have been reported. So, but there
[00:32:15] Jimmy Falun Gong: are us military bases in all of those countries.
[00:32:20] Alex Tsakiris: I just can’t. I mean, to me that’s
[00:32:23] Jimmy Falun Gong: yeah, but there’s not a consistent number of UFO sightings.
It’s certainly spikes after the invention. Of airplanes is, would you agree
[00:32:33] Alex Tsakiris: with that? It spikes after the invention of a phones too, with, uh, with cameras on them. So I just think it’s you’re, to me, you’re, you’re doing the exact opposite of what you do on an applying it to the, the history like of Germany.
Like to me, the pullout point from the part we talked about in part one is that we now have to understand the formation of the Nazi party differently because of its connection to intelligence and intelligence organizations. And we shouldn’t fall for the kind of standard lone nut assassin. Oh my gosh.
You know, well, to me, it’s the same thing here. It’s like the real stories we have all directly contradict what you’re saying. Do you know who Paul Benowitz is? Yes. Okay. So Paul Benowitz, so what do you know about that story?
[00:33:34] Jimmy Falun Gong: Yeah, I mean, I read Mirage, so,
[00:33:37] Alex Tsakiris: so he, he is just an ordinary guy. He’s a small business owner owns like an electrical contracting company or something like that.
And he sees these lights in the base across from. You know, it’s way out in the distance, but he reports it and then he becomes a victim. And the fact that they even came out and acknowledged, this is scary that they would, but this attempt to discredit him by doing kind of an MK ultra mind control. I mean, they’d show up in the air force was pretending like they were interested only to go in his house and rearrange his furniture when he wasn’t looking.
So that he’d go, oh, Paul, what do you mean? Nothing happened. They’re trying to drive him crazy in order to discredit his testimony, that wouldn’t fit in with what you’re saying at all. And we see this repeated over and over again. If you go look at
[00:34:30] Jimmy Falun Gong: where did what, like where did he see the thing that he saw?
[00:34:34] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. See, but that begs the question. So he saw it on an air force base. So to suggest then this is, an earth based technology and that we kind of spun it out of, you know, our really Bravo, our planes and it doesn’t fit with the data we have. Right. I mean, we can kind of trace the technology of flight back pretty far.
And the, at the point at which UFO’s intersect with that is not at a point when we had the technological capability to do some of this stuff. It just doesn’t, it just doesn’t fit.
[00:35:12] Jimmy Falun Gong: Yeah, but I mean, with the Benowitz case, like, all I hear is he saw something at a base and then military intelligence started to fuck with him. And like, I’m not necessarily denying that there could be something with UFO’s. In addition to that, I’m just saying that a lot of the UFO phenomenon is explained by these agencies that exist specifically to push out disinformation. I don’t mean to say that there’s nothing else going on.
[00:35:43] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. But you know, back to your Ockham’s razor thing, the outcomes razor cuts really more cleanly. The other way is that the attempt to muddy the waters with misinformation is because they’re hiding something that is real. I mean, if you go back and you trace, like, I dunno if you’re familiar with the Wilbert Smith memo that’s released in the fifties.
And he’s a guy in Canada who is at the weird desk in Canada, the highest level, talking to the prime minister about all this strange stuff that’s popping up in the sky. It’s not all the time, but reports, pilots, commercial pilots, military pilots. They’re all saying at various times, like they have throughout history, we’re seeing these things.
So finally. , the highest level people in the Canadian government, the prime minister says, Hey, go down there and see what the yanks know. And he comes down to the U S and he meets with fan of our Bush. And he meets with all the other aviary people, which whether you want to believe it or not best evidence is that it’s true.
And he comes back and he writes a memo in this memo is top secret. And it’s only revealed accidentally through a foyer request in Canada. And you can trace legitimacy of that, but it certainly doesn’t look like anything that was snuck out or planted or intended to get out. And he says, Hey, yeah, I went down there and , this is in the 1950s.
He says, this is the highest top secret thing that is going on in the us. And the other thing that he says is he says, there’s a mental phenomenon aspect of this that they’re very interested in. And that would be the telepathic part is that they’re having extended consciousness communication with these beings.
[00:37:28] Jimmy Falun Gong: clear what keel said is that it’s not necessarily a physical phenomena.
[00:37:34] Alex Tsakiris: Well, it’s not necessarily, but the way that cuts is what is reality. Anyway, you know, it’s kind of, uh, gets into some deeper philosophical and also physics kind of things in terms of consciousness is consciousness fundamental or as matter of fundamental, how flexible is time, how flexible is matter.
But if we’re going to , stay in this consensus reality, where there are things that are out there that we can measure, yes. These things can have a physical property. Yes. There can be spaceships from other planets and yes, jock valet, who, you know, writes all these books about the connections to fairies and all the rest of that also has space craft pieces in his pocket that he handles his with the most technical and sophisticated microscopes we have and says, we can’t make this, , in this world.
So th th the idea that it’s somehow all consciousness or that there isn’t a nuts and bolts committee as again, just kind of a, a punt to me of the whole thing. And I don’t know where this whole thing got started. It’s so flat earth fish to me.
[00:38:45] Jimmy Falun Gong: Yeah, no, I definitely think that things are always much more complicated than they seem.
[00:38:52] Alex Tsakiris: , so let, let me ask you this. So we hashed it out there on the UFO thing, but we didn’t really hash it out. So , what is the worldview collide thing on that, and how does the worldview collide thing really ever get resolved? So taking you and I out of it for a minute, but we just went through a worldview collide kind of discussion.
How are these things supposed to resolve themselves?
[00:39:22] Jimmy Falun Gong: Well, I mean, I think that, like, you were pretty forceful on the existence of a unidentified flying object phenomenon. I think that there is also overwhelming evidence of intelligence agencies infiltrating the UFO community, and you can make various sort of assumptions as to why ranging from monitoring it, keeping tabs on it all the way to astroturfing it completely like in certain times in places they seem to have just outright funded it.
So like, there are probably a bunch of reasons why they would do that. So how do we reconcile the fact that. There’s that phenomenon. And then there’s intelligence agencies. Absolutely just caked throughout the UFO community. Like, I don’t know if it’s necessarily going to be just one answer, you know,
[00:40:21] Alex Tsakiris: I get you on part of that.
But the other part of it that is troubling to me because it is also, I think where we’re at in a culture, in terms of the larger, bigger picture stuff so I guess my process in that, , , it’s the black Swan thing. And the black Swan thing is that if you think all swans are white, you only need one black Swan the false vacation is not as hard as you might think. And the falsification of the idea that UFO’s are an invention of the air force or an intelligence project or something like that is pretty easy just when you, like I say, you just go across culture across time and there they are.
You can’t jam that back into UFO’s are a product of the United States military. It just doesn’t fit. It’s a black Swan. what do you think about that?
[00:41:18] Jimmy Falun Gong: Yeah, I mean, I think that that is certainly a good point at the same time. Like you could still take the set of data and say overwhelmingly like 99.9, nine, nine, 9% of swans or UFO’s, or are probably, you know, some sort of either projection using a technology, which they have patents for that projecting things into the sky, or, you know, just new craft that they’re experimenting with because there’s, you know, like you can’t say that there’s not a huge, like correlation between UFO’s and us military bases.
Not to say that that’s everything, but like there’s a very high correlation there and that, you know, like logic would sort of correlate those two. Right. And I think the shorter, more logical answer would be, that’s probably experimental craft,
[00:42:23] Alex Tsakiris: but the fundamental question is, is there a reality to beings from other planets visiting earth?
That’s what we really want to know. So if it’s one in the middle,
[00:42:37] Jimmy Falun Gong: they’re coming from Kolbe, of
[00:42:38] Alex Tsakiris: course
[00:42:40] Jimmy Falun Gong: what’s called lab. Um, it’s, it’s the Mormon planet I’m just screwing around.
[00:42:46] Alex Tsakiris: Well, I think it’s, I think it’s this, this is the kind of stuff that I think keeps popping up. it’s like when you get into the stuff that kind of gets more to your field and the work that you’ve done on program to chill is when you get into esotericism, which is really kind of code speak for a cult, and which is really kind of a code speak for satanic, but none of us can process that fully.
Again, I would suggest is because we’re hamstrung by this very, very cultish kind of religious kind of, I have the book and the book says everything we could ever want to know about that. But when you do talk to academics, like. I talked to the guy I got from a house state university wrote a book on Scientology, and he’ll tell you L Ron Hubbard and Jack Parsons are out in the desert and they’re trying to do the, the rights to bring forth the antichrist.
And then he’ll kind of just go right on and talk about the rest of the Scientology story. And you want to go well, , wait, you know, and he says something that I’ll, I’ll hear you say it doesn’t matter so much, whether it’s real or not. What matters is that they believed it and I’m like, well, no, it’s kind of the opposite.
It matters if they believed it. But the most fundamental question is, is there an extended consciousness realm might that exist? And might that have an influence on humanity as it, as we’re living it in this space time? Reality. That is a question that I would say is kind of been answered by science in the last 10 years in terms of the work that’s been done in Paris psychology and a near death experience, reincarnation work at major universities and published and peer reviewed papers.
It’s just like the word hasn’t got out that, yeah, the best bet is that yes, there is a reality to that. So let’s start getting serious about what that means. Do you have any thoughts on that?
[00:44:42] Jimmy Falun Gong: Yeah. Like it’s been commented upon by lots of people that like rich people, like Croley, you know, take your pick, like people like to do magic.
It’s almost if rich people and poor people do magic and they mostly do different types that overlap. Right. But I really, truly don’t think that people are doing magic and that it has nothing like it doesn’t do anything at all. You know? Like whether, whether you want to say it’s a psychological thing or whether it maybe has a literal reaction that they can observe.
I really don’t think that like Jack Parsons, L Ron Hubbard, Alister coli, you know, any one of these people were out there just doing weird rituals in the desert, and then they didn’t notice anything. And then they just went along their way. You know, like I do think that there is something to magic. I’m not necessarily advocating that people there for practice magic.
You know what I’m saying?
[00:45:52] Alex Tsakiris: Clearly, I mean, I would almost suggest the opposite. I would, I’m not a Christian, I’m not a religious person, but it does seem to me that. There is a moral imperative. There is good. There is light, there is darkness and it’s kind of an as below. So above kind of thing. That’s how, that’s how I process all the data that I’ve encountered is, you know, just look around the crowd, our world, our here and now world.
You don’t have to look very far to see darkness in a way that we don’t totally understand why people are drawn to that. Why are you doing such destructive things to you and other, how does that really benefit you? But people do it nonetheless.
[00:46:34] Jimmy Falun Gong: Yeah, exactly. And like, I maybe we’ll get into it, but like there are all types of magical practices and a lot of them are probably benign.
I, in fact, I can almost attest to that, but like, there is a specific subset of people who are interested in black magic and black magic specifically is all about contacting non-human entities to get them to do things for them. And it’s always tied up in doing acts of violence, certain sexual acts, and there’s a whole framework for doing it in order to do these things.
And then it becomes very, very concerning when you perceive certain powerful people. Doing that, like, I think a lot of people were a little clued into that with Epstein and his interesting looking temple on his island in the Caribbean. Right. That was certainly one of the starting points for me.
[00:47:38] Alex Tsakiris: Well, one of the other starting points for a lot of people was pizza gate, but I’m not sure you’re kind of to, what are you thinking about pizza gate?
And to what extent are you viewing this through an exclusively Christian lens?
[00:47:50] Jimmy Falun Gong: I would say not exclusively Christian, like I was not particularly tuned into black magic. when I was at my most devout, I sort of got into this first and foremost through looking at intelligence agencies, you know, more of the financial stuff.
And then I kept seeing this correlation between certain people being interested in magic also. And I just don’t see them being interested in something that is purely spiritual that has no tangible relation to like, you know what I’m saying? Like people don’t put time and effort into things for no payoff.
[00:48:32] Alex Tsakiris: Right. Although it gets complicated in the same way that the, the Nazi financing gets complicated. And we say, you know, the industrialist that you document in the whole series you do on the financing of Hitler are all over the board. They’re not, we can’t assume that they’re all in a Semitic and you kind of point that out.
And we can’t assume that they’re all even pro Nazi. A lot of them are just being strategic and they’re placing their bets all over the place. And I think the same thing is going on here. Right? I mean, you, you, there’s a certain goal along to get along aspect to politics. Certainly. So how are you processing the Pizzagate thing?
Cause again, the worldview collide, , the other thing I get from the tinfoil left, when I talk about pizza gate and they go, oh yeah, pizza gate. That’s where a guy goes in and shoots up a pizza restaurant. Well, no, it’s, it’s where they tried to submarine Hillary Clinton by releasing all these emails that showed her strange connection to a cult practices that because so much of the population is completely mesmerized by this Christian motif, any hint of a cult practices connected with these people is going to seriously damage her.
Politically. That to me seems like clearly the intent of the emails, and there was enough substance to the emails that it just generated this huge storm on Twitter and on social media. But then again, it’s a rewrite of history when I hear these people say, yeah, it’s not this wacky right wing guy who shot up a pizza parlor.
No, it’s about the emails.
[00:50:14] Jimmy Falun Gong: Yeah, no, because that’s the thing. There are so many aspects to pizza gate because first and foremost, that restaurant, the guy who owns it probably, well, okay. I won’t say anything that could get me sued. He seemed pretty creepy. Um, the emails, the timing of them was absolutely designed to tank her.
For sure. That was an operation that said. The Clintons do also seem to have their hands in some weird, you know, some of that marina Abramovic stuff is like, really it’s it’s art, but it’s also, they’re just doing magic. Like whether or not you think that’s real or, you know, whatever, it’s really weird. And it freaks out the electorate and just pointing it out is not necessarily bad.
Obviously the way that it was framed with pizza gate was designed to cause maximum damage. But that’s just how politics is. Right? So it’s like, it was an operation. There was some truth here. There was some truth there, you know, but it’s also just designed to take her down really interesting stuff.
[00:51:27] Alex Tsakiris: This is really interesting stuff.
And now we’re kind of getting somewhere, I think. And I think it’s really easy for people at this point to see the connections that I make with that and the work you’ve done on program to chill, because program to chill. Forces us to think of everything from a pair of political, which is code speak for conspiracy theory because people freak out when you say conspiracy theory.
So my pair political standpoint is like, huh, who was behind that operation? And why was that operation run? And then why was his free rewritten as right-wing conspiracy theory , guy goes in and shoots up a pizza restaurant. And as you kind of were approaching, James Elefante says is he might be a pizza owner, but he’s one of the most influential Democrat connected at the highest level, , kind of personages in Washington, DC.
And what happened when they, when they did the crowdsource kind of investigation on him is he has this oh, beyond creepy connections to very pedophile, the themed, , pictures, , art, which we can’t even call it. Art. It’s just pedophilia disguised as are extremely disturbing. And, and there’s gentleman fantasies right in the middle of that are either commenting on it or liking people are connected with it.
There’s just, it’s it’s undeniable. What is deniable is, do we have any proof that he was engaging in sexual? No, we don’t have that. You know, was he convicted? No, we don’t have that, but anyone who has the stomach, which I would forgive anyone, if they didn’t looking in that comes in and goes, oh my God, that’s, it’s, it’s incredible to think that that guy would have that level of, of influence and gravitas within the democratic community and would be still friends with everybody.
Cause that’s always the thing I say is like, okay, you didn’t know any of that stuff about James Alefantis and he was your friend. Now you do know it. Is he still your friend for most of us, you’d be like, fuck, no. I mean, I’m like, you know, so, but the, the op is, is strange. Cause the op it’s like, let me shift gears for a minute to get your thought on this.
January 6th, to me, the direct parallels to pizza gate, January six, the message that came out of that. And I wasn’t even following that close was, but it just kind of rang in my head and then they storm the Capitol. And then they stormed the capital, like, and then the guy went in and shot up the pizza restaurant.
It’s like, but that, isn’t what that was about. What do you think of the possibility that there was a, and I sent you the link that there was an agent provocateur among the crowd.
[00:54:19] Jimmy Falun Gong: That was, oh, more than just like one. I think that there was a whole host of people. Like it’s been documented that there were people from Fort Braggs, army, psychological operations units present at January 6th.
There was a weird lack of Capitol police. They seem to receive atypical instructions on how to handle it. They seem to sort of, you know, there’s a thing, like there are other groups in the mix and I know that Steven Snyder, you know, recluse has done, uh he’s he had at least one show that arguably almost laid it all out as far as can be known currently, but it’s just like, yeah, they were definitely provoking them to, into doing that.
And then I think a lot of the people who got arrested some, but not all were, I wouldn’t say innocent, but like, I’m not in, I’m not in a position as a judge in the first place, but like a lot of times the people who actually get charges for things like this are not the people who instigated or caused it, I’ll say that.
[00:55:31] Alex Tsakiris: So let’s connect it back. How are we to understand this history when it’s being rewritten right in front of our eyes? I run across people all the time who are Trump supporters. And I’m like, clearly at this point, it’s an app, right? I mean, Trump is a brand. He’s not a, he he’s a brand in the same way.
I mean, Biden is clearly not, no one thinks Biden is a leader or a political figure. There’s something going on here that we’re completely not aware of. We’re hidden from, but whatever, we’re, we’re we even take a step into it. We’re forced into this other paradigm, whether it’s the left right paradigm or whether it’s the whatever, and made this speaks back to one of your points earlier is we’re at a time in history when there’s more professional liars than at any other point in history.
But I, I don’t know how you, how you make your way through the hall of mirrors.
[00:56:29] Jimmy Falun Gong: Yeah. I mean, all you can really do is just toe the line and insist on consent. A certain amount of consensus, reality. Like, like you can’t deny what you’re observing. Like you see something and it doesn’t match what people are saying.
You just have to. Stick to your guns. Like, like that’s all you can do. That’s not to say only trust yourself. Yeah. You should listen to other people, but like, if things don’t add up to you, they probably don’t have it up. Like, unless you’re really bad at math. Right? Like most people, I think have an intuitive understanding that things are off and that a lot, like the, the media has taken a lot of criticism, but like rightfully they should be criticized for a lot of the things that they have lied about in the recent past, in, in going back further as well.
[00:57:29] Alex Tsakiris: Right. Where do you stand on the whole, , you got to take the job, you got to wear a mask, , kind of thing.
[00:57:37] Jimmy Falun Gong: You know, I was pretty compliant. I got the vaccine, , and I was paying attention to a lot of the observers and critics and I am increasingly skeptical of like the ongoing, like I am most.
Skeptical of the like biomedical, like them trying to bring in all these policies, all that. Yeah. But like, I, I know enough about bio weapons research to get myself in trouble, which is to say that like, they were specifically testing that over there. There was, you know, like in Wu Han, they were studying this exact thing and then it got out.
So like, I’m very skeptical of like the policies, the rolling out. I’m not necessarily doubting the existence of the virus or. The, uh, you know, the vaccines and then I just have doubts as to what their instrumentalizing.
[00:58:41] Alex Tsakiris: Oh, exactly. I mean, I, that’s another thing it’s like the flat earth thing, which you identified as a site.
I think flat earth is complete sign up. It’s a way to take the, the truth or community and divide them. And then, oh, we can just, any of these people who’ve got on this side, we can just write them off. Oh, they’re flat earth. I think the same is true with the virus. And it really caught me by surprise.
The first time I, I was talking to David Ike, , and he’s like, there is no virus, you know, there is no virus. And I, like, I just talked to Andy Kaufman. There was no virus. I go, David David, you figured it out with the swine flu that it was a, it was an op how are you burying your head in the sand this time it’s clearly an app.
And the other thing is, if you really look at the science and I might just take this out, because I think it tracks from the other conversation we were having. But the, like you said, the Wilham lab, the gain of function, the. Breakdown, you know, we can genetically decode the virus and it doesn’t add up. And there’s this excellent video.
I don’t know if you’ve ever seen this, but this guy does. He says there’s actually a website that lets you look at, strings of genetic code to see where they’re at. And this is used kind of from a legal standpoint for patents, you know, he goes through and he does it step by step, you know, and it, at the end of the day, it’s modern, uh, patents.
Very, very convincing. There’s no way this is an organic virus. There’s a bunch of people who’ve said that because there’s clear evidence of gene splicing. And then for certain sequences in that to be an, a patent on Moderna, which isn’t, which is like a fake company to begin with this kind of invented doesn’t really have anything, you know, you cannot pack that back into, Ooh, it was an accident.
Oh, they tried to keep us safe and it just didn’t work.
[01:00:33] Jimmy Falun Gong: And then you see certain people who arguably have gotten things right in the past, almost intentionally take the wrong stance on this, raises some questions.
[01:00:44] Alex Tsakiris: Great, great point. Well, uh, it’s been great having you on that. Spend a couple of hours. Maybe we’ll break it into two. Maybe I’ll leave it as one, but thanks so much for joining me on skeptical.
[01:00:54] Jimmy Falun Gong: Thank you very much.
[01:00:56] Alex Tsakiris: (—) Thanks again to Jimmy Fallon gong for joining me today on Skepta co. The one question I tee up from this interview is.
What are your values? What values do you value most? And more importantly, how do you think they might influence your beliefs about so many of the topics that we talk about here on skeptical?
How do your values influence your beliefs on the UFO topic we talked about or on the left right paradigm? We talked about.
Or on the whole topic of conspiracy and conspiracy theories.
That seems to come up a lot on skeptical. Let me know your thoughts. I’d love to hear from you. Stay with me for much more. Until next time, take care. And bye for now.
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