Grant Cameron, No Such Thing As Evil ET? |449|


Grant Cameron, believes consciousness comes first when it comes to understanding UFOs/ETs.

photo by: Skeptiko

(movie clip) That’s Jim Carrey from the movie Bruce Almighty, talking about his problems with separation. It’s a topic we talk quite a bit about with today’s guest UFO researcher, Grant Cameron. 

Grant Cameron: [00:00:34] But we go back to the fact that there is just experience, that’s all there is. We’ve talked about the evil alien. So we say there are evil aliens, that’s the general impression and if you go and you do the FREE survey, you see that 84% of all experiencers say, if they were given the chance to have it stop, they would say, no. Only 9% say it’s evil and 9% is not zero, but it’s getting pretty close. There are no victims, there are just volunteers. It’s all experience.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:01:01] So I appreciate the distinctions you’re making. 

Grant Cameron: [00:01:05] Distinctions? I mean, you’re saying at some point we have to move to something else. So what are we moving towards? 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:01:10] Here’s the kicker and the important part for people who don’t believe, like so many of the academics, their humanist, materialist, atheist paradigm, and they don’t have to deal with any of this shit. But for people like you and I who acknowledge an extended consciousness realm, when somebody tells me, “Yeah, I’m abusing these kids and let me tell you this spirit being, this entity in the extended consciousness realm, and he is really into it too, and he is bringing all this power into the group and he is doing these physical things, and if I do this ritual in a certain way, it brings even more power into me. And that’s my download,” he says, “that’s my experience.”


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Alex Tsakiris: [00:02:00] Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I’m your host, Alex Tsakiris, and today we welcome back to Skeptiko Grant Cameron. Grant is without question one of the top UFO researchers in the world. He’s well known for his website, White House UFOs, where way back in the day he explored the connection between United States presidents and UFOs. But in more recent years, he’s been tracking down the connection between the UFO phenomenon and consciousness. Of course, a topic that we are so, so interested in on this show. 

Well, Grant is also, as many of you know, the author of several terrific books. I’m showing some of them up on the screen, and from what I understand, Grant even has a couple of other books in the works that are especially relevant to the topics we’re going to be talking about today. I’m sure we’ll hear more about that.

Grant, it’s so awesome to always talk to you. It’s just amazing the new information you bring forward and I’m looking forward to this one because you know, I kind of teed this up. I had an interview with Dolan a while back and you were a part of our discussion and I wanted to kind of thread this into an ongoing level three kind of discussion. So it’s really cool to have you here. 

Grant Cameron: [00:03:28] Well, it’s an honor to be on Alex because in the way that I have done consciousness over the last eight years, you too have gone down that road when it really wasn’t all that popular. It’s now become sort of like a buzzword, but you were there at the beginning and you’ve taken the same sort of interest in the consciousness aspect to reality as I have. So I’m honored to be talking to you. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:03:50] Well, you know what’s kind of cool is that we kind of came at it from two separate angles that kind of intersect, and I have to say, you are really one of the people that pulled me into the UFO world deeper than I was going on my own, you know what I mean? 

So I was down on the consciousness path and I was exploring near-death experience. At first I was exploring, anyone who’s listened to the show knows this, but if they’re just popping in. I down the parapsychology path, but really, let’s look at science, is precognition real? You know because all of these materialist skeptics, deniers, want to say it isn’t. And then that led me to near-death experience, that led me to extended consciousness, medium communication, all the rest of this stuff. 

And then Grant Cameron pops along and says, “Hey, wait a minute. I’m seeing all of these connections between this UFO phenomenon we’re talking about, and the E T contact experience and consciousness.” And we talked about that quite extensively in my interview with Richard Dolan and we went over that whole history and he, along with me, identifies you as one of the key people in making that startling connection between the Wilbert Smith memo, and I won’t go over that whole thing with people because we did a whole show on it, and you’ve talked about it many times, but the connection between that and consciousness. 

So if you want, you know what we could do here. I mean, I don’t know where to really start this, but let’s start it with you updating us on what’s going on in your world and then I’m going to jump into that Dolan interview and a rather lengthy clip and we can pick up on that conversation. 

But Grant, I just got you on the phone. How are you doing? What’s going on in your world? You’ve got a lot of stuff going on as usual. Tell us what’s up.

Grant Cameron: [00:05:56] Lots of stuff is going on. It’s the most active period of my life. As we are talking about with the consciousness thing, it starts with the Consciousness Download that I get in 2012 and it’s sort of like people who maybe have had a near-death experience. I didn’t choose to have it, it happened, it flipped me into this world, I wasn’t intending to go there. 

And then in about 2017 I had a more dramatic, lengthy sort of noetic experience where I was given about 24 different things about how the universe worked. And it’s been sort of high-end excitement since then.

The books I’m working on now try to tie everything together. So it starts with this consciousness aspect where I’m told this is all got to do with consciousness. And now the books I’m working on more tie together, all the stuff you’re talking about at the beginning, near-death experiences, mediums. I’m big into physical mediums now and I tie all of these elements together.

So I’m doing a book called Contact Modalities, which should be out momentarily, and it basically looks at all of the different modalities, and yet the concept is that everything is in the field. All the information is in the field and various people, through the ability to shut down the noise in their brain, whether that’s mediums or people who have had out-of-body experiences or near-death experiences, or people who have brain hemorrhages or brain injuries, that they’re able to pop into the field and grab the material. So I’ve got about 70 different contact modalities and I’ve put them all together.

The other thing I’m working on, I’m working on a book called Extraterrestrial or Maybe Not. And in there I look at, I’ve gone the Jacques Vallée route where Jacques Vallée always said, “I’d be very surprised if this turns out to be extraterrestrials.” I’m going down the same road now where I say it’s basically all tied together.

So what I’ve been doing just in the last month, is I’m tying together experiences that happen in the spirit world, that happened in physical mediumship and in the UFO, and they’re absolutely identical. And I’ll give you two examples. 

I have an interview that’s up on my Facebook page right now, or on my White House UFO YouTube channel with a guy by the name of Ron Johnson, who’s a guy, he’s a Mormon guy out of the Salt Lake City area, who has these experiences starting in the 1960s. And as part of his UFO experiences, he has three dozen autobody experiences, where he believes that the beings actually take him out. And in three of those occasions they take them to the spirit world. He goes into the spirit world and he’s interacting with his mother in the spirit world. And she takes him to a building in the spirit world, and she says, “Ron, when you die,” because he’s got very advanced heart disease, “when you die, when you come here, you’re going to get a room in this building.” 

So he says, “I go into the building,” and he says, “I’m surprised, it’s way bigger on the inside of the building than it is on the outside of the building.” And as soon as he said that I said, “That’s UFO stuff.”

Chris Bledsoe, who’s now sort of becoming a very famous experiencer in the UFO world, at one point told me that he had flown the craft, and you fly the craft with your mind, it’s done. telepathically. You become one with the craft. The craft is alive. And during that interview I said, “Tell me, I want you to start from the beginning, go to the end, and I want you to tell me, how do you fly a craft?” So he starts and he says, “Well, the object is on the ground. It’s shaped like an egg. It has this, sort of a doorway. I go in,” and he says, “I suddenly realize it’s way bigger on the inside of the craft than it is on the outside.” And he goes in, he looks back out and it’s small and he looks inside and it’s way bigger. It’s an identical story, and it’s not the kind of a story you’re going to make up if you’re going to try and make something up.

The other story, to give you an example, Ron Johnson tells me, when he’s in this building with his mother in the spirit world, she takes him and she shows him this table with crystals on it, and she tells him the story that all of these crystals are the stories of people’s lives. And so you look into the crystal at a certain angle and you can see your entire life 3D, back as far as you want to go. And he takes a look at his dog’s crystal, this crystal his dog comes up, and he looks at his dog and he sees how his dog died. He didn’t know how the dog died, and he realized that it had been shot by the neighbor, and he said, “My crystal doesn’t come up until I’m in in the spirit world.” So he’s telling this story. 

Okay, now we go back and we look at a 1988 documentary, a UFO documentary called UFO Cover Up? Live, which is always rumored to be a documentary where the CIA was dropping stuff into UFO community. It’s done in the final days of the Reagan administration. And during that documentary they talk to Richard Doty, who’s The Falcon, who’s now becoming sort of famous, this Richard Doty guy says, “The most amazing thing I saw of all of the evidence I saw was an [unclear 00:10:34] crystal that the aliens held. And they held this crystal up and you looked at it at a certain angle and you could see the entire history of the whole world. And the rumor back in the 1980s, when the story was going around, is that they had actually shown the U S government the crucifixion of Jesus Christ in this crystal. It’s the same story.

You go to Michael Newton, Michael Newton says in the spirit world, you’re in life between lives. People are looking at the books. He says, you open up the book and there’s a crystal in it, and you look at a certain angle at the crystal and you plan your future lives. You can see your past lives, you can go all that.

So these are the connections that we’re starting to make and there are so many connections where I’m starting to say, I don’t really know if this is ET, this may be just spirits, higher self, whatever, who are putting on a different mask, because now we’re in the space age. And if you take a look you have… I’m doing people with light language now, these people who can speak these weird light languages and people can speak 20 of them. It hasn’t happened for the last 10 years, no more than that. I go and people are dealing with reptilians, I say, when was the first reptilian experience? 1988. When was the first grey experience? 1961 with Betty and Barney Hill and they were wearing hats. And you see these bizarre things and you’re going like, maybe this isn’t alien at all. Maybe this is just, because we’re in the space age, they’ve come in and portrayed themselves as aliens. Because it’s basically the same message that you’re going to get in near-death experiences, in people who are claiming they’re talking to soul guides, who are talking to their higher self, people who are channeling. It’s the same message coming through all of these different entities. 


Alex Tsakiris: [00:12:05] Okay, excellent way to tee it up. And I’m tempted, so attempted to jump in there on like a million different points, but I’m going to hold on for a minute. I want to play the Dole and clip and then, then we’ll pick up the conversation cause I have a couple of interesting little paths to take us down.

Grant Cameron: [00:12:25] Sure.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:12:26] And. I’m with grant in the sense that, and I’m with Chris Bledsoe in the sense that I don’t think that it’s all negative, but I’m not with. I don’t know, I don’t know where grant stands on this actually, but I wouldn’t be with him 

Grant Cameron: [00:12:40] if he were to say it’s all positive. I don’t believe that. I mean, Steve and Greg would say it’s all positive too, and I 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:12:46] strongly disagree with that.

Grant Cameron: [00:12:48] I think, that’s just foolish. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:12:50] So I think you, me, that’s almost to me the third dimension of it, because I want to recap what you talked about, which I find so intriguing. The first dimension isn’t the. Proper word. Forgive me. But the first question that pops to mind is, what is the interface with our physical reality?

Cause we’re interested in that. We have this kind of curious engineering mind. How did he make the lights shift? The second. I think question that pops up is what is the technology of the consciousness interface? And I think that’s particularly interesting because when we look at ITI and you start looking at the cases, there’s clearly, as grant pointed out in that clip we played from the 1950s we understood there’s mental telepathy as the means of communication.

We go, well, shit, we don’t know how to do that. But apparently they do. And they have it like a. An app on their iPhone. So there’s a technology component to consciousness that we just totally don’t get. And it also relates to this time-space thing that we won’t get. But then the third dimension of it, which you just just touched on it, and I think it’s so fascinating, and I really want to get to it because it gets to the heart of the video that you did with Tracy, and that’s the good.

Versus evil. The moral imperative. It’s so challenging because we’ve all gone through, you know, you said you went through an atheistic phase. Any thinking person doesn’t go through an atheistic place. Does. Most of us are fed with this kind of narrow Christian dogma, get on the arc kind of stuff. But when we.

Blast past that. We’re still faced with, is there good and bad and how does that work? You’ve talked about grant, let me play what grant has to say about that and then I want to get your take and then I’ll offer my take on it. There’s good and bad. There is a moral difference. You know, take the most extreme example, the guy who’s, taking little kids and cutting them up and selling their body parts and sexually molesting them.

That in my mind is, is bad. It’s evil. And then there were, there’s a bunch of shades in between. And then there’s some really Holy, good people that I don’t know how they do it, but they keep all their shit together and they really do it that way. How’s your universe? Is there good and bad? Cause some people in the consciousness camp say, well, there’s really no good and bad at all.

Just kind of, you know. Well, if you go to the noon stuff, 

Grant Cameron: [00:15:15] no. If you get into reincarnation, it’s all experienced. If you w the mistake you make is you did it in that sentence, you say, okay, this is guys who cut up little people or whatever. Okay. And then there’s these good people who basically have it all together.

And I would go to, don’t I have to quote the Bible, but with the whole thing with the prostitute, Jesus said, lead he who’s perfect cast the first stone. All you have, you do not have good people and bad people. You do not have good aliens. And that.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:15:45] Okay. That was all you heard all that, right? 

Grant Cameron: [00:15:48] Sure. Yeah. Okay, so are you on first 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:15:51] long, long clip? It shoehorns this right into an ongoing of discussion. You pick it apart of your month. 

Grant Cameron: [00:15:59] Okay. I guess the good, the good evil thing. I have not changed my position. This, this is like a religious. A dogma, good versus evil, right?

It’s a scientific, religious, and superstition that there’s, there’s positive, negative, basically, we go back to the fact that there is just experience. That’s all there is. If you take a look at, we’ve talked about the, the evil alien. Okay? So we say there’s evil aliens. That’s the general impression.

and, and if you go and you do the FREE survey, you see that 84% of all experienced, you say, if they were given the chance to have it stop, they would say, no. Only 9% say it’s evil and 9% is not zero, but it’s getting pretty close. And when Ray Hernandez went back and interviewed those 9%, basically the vast majority of them said, why?

Why? Why do you think they’re evil in this sets? Cause they scared the living daylights out of me. They were tall, eight foot tall rep Killian’s in their bedroom or whatever, and that was being racist. That’s it. That’s basically why you’re calling them evil. And they said, yeah, that’s basically it. They’re in, in the, in the real world, in, in ice.

I say the world, the way the world works is the universe is neutral and we get these dogmas. We get these belief systems about good and bad and separation. There is only one thing. It is all one thing. And we move into duality. We create these little worlds where we’re the good guy and then there’s bad guys and you can take a look at the little children.

The pedophile thing. So I would say to you, okay, you and I, I was in, I’m in Canada, you’re in the United States in world war II. We thought we were saving the world, and we went to Germany and we were fighting Hitler, and we’d invented this technique in 1942 or we started these firebombings where we created this, this firestorm where we cremated 25,000 people in one night.

Now if you say pedophilia is 10 out of 10 where does dropping in a bomb and cremating. 25,000 people alive. Go, where does dropping two atomic bombs? It’s all 10 out of 10 I will agree. There are things that are, that are, that are are good things that are bad, but in the end, if you take a look at Google, a near death experience 

and a Google.

oneness. And a video will pop up of a woman who will talk about the fact that she had a vision. So she has this near-death experience. And you can say, okay, she had this near-death experience and a, we believe all this. And then she starts talking about the vision she had. There are no victims. There are only volunteers.

I have got a number of people who have told me identical stories. Having near death experiences. There are no victims. There are just volunteers. It’s all experienced. The idea 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:18:31] we have to kind of step back because if consciousness is primary, if consciousness is fundamental, like you and I both, I believe that it is, and the best science keeps coming back and saying, gee, every time we run the double slit experiment, every time we run all it’s.

Consciousness is fundamental. Okay. So then this whole discussion is kind of moved to a certain point because it’s all just droplets in the ocean and that we’re identifying as waves or foam or occurrence or all these things. It’s just the ocean. But at some point we have to, we have discernment. We have to start making these distinctions.

So I appreciate the distinctions you’re making. What we have to. 

Grant Cameron: [00:19:15] I mean you’re, you’re saying at some point we have to move to something else. So what are we moving towards? 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:19:19] Well, I, I didn’t mean it that way. If that word threw you off. In terms of distinctions, I, I’m, I’m talking about what your saying, the conclusions that you’re making are some distinctions within the ocean, right?

Cause if it’s an ocean of consciousness. There’s really nothing to talk about. It all is one. But we are interested as human beings and as people who are trying to figure out what is the right thing to do with our lives in our time and our energy. We’re making distinctions and reading, interpreting stories a particular way.

So I’m going to challenge you on a couple of things that you said because we’re. You know, there’s few people who I feel have such a, a deep grasp of this thing like you do. So it’s super great opportunity and I don’t want people to think I’m like getting in your face here, but it’s a skeptical kind of thing.

And so here are the, here are the problems I have with it. One is I kind of feel sometimes, like you’re. Kind of jumping on the data one way when the data really, as I read it comes back the other way. I like how you reference Michael Newton and then are you familiar with rich martini road? Okay, so. Rich martini since Michael Newton has passed on, he’s the between lives researcher and Martina actually got to interview him for this movie that he did flip side.

And he has since interviewed many, many people who have both facilitated these between live regressions and have participated in them. And I don’t take every one of those stories as gospel because you can’t, you know that you know yet. Just let me finish. Grant. Yeah. Cause here’s the point that you’re just completely glossing over your suggesting that that research suggests that there’s no judgment that the martini documents in his film with experiencers, that it’s just the opposite.

They definitely felt, ah ha, like I like to call it a hierarchy of consciousness or moral imperative. good and bad. You know, one of the most. For anyone who’s watched that film. One of the most compelling scenes is a woman who is being led. It goes back to a past life memory of her being in the Nazi concentration camps and being led to.

The gas chamber and she thinks about resisting and then she says, no, I’m with my people. This is the path that I have to play. This is the role that I have to play in this. But at the same time, she feels the weight and burden. Her perpetrators will have to carry in working out the deeds that they’re doing.

Embedded in all that grant is a judgment is a moral imperative, is a good, is a bad, is a, this is the thing to do. This is not the thing to do, is that my actions matter. That is central to the near-death experience. If you look at it. You know, Jeff Long, you know, Jeff Long, he’s now trying to help you guys in the free organization.

Clearly. And you know, from my interviews, I’ve talked to him overwhelmingly, the message is that there is a moral imperative. There is good, there is bad, there is a hierarchy, there are choices. It’s not judgmental in the old fashion. Bible Christian Thumper dogmatic. I decide who goes to hell thing. It’s more your soul’s journey in deciding what is discernment again, deciding what is the path, what is the good thing, but this idea of this, there’s no good, there’s no evil.

It’s all just kind of a blob of consciousness. Completely flies in the face of the between lives data and the near-death experience data as well as the after-death communication data. You know, and I have good research on that, but it comes back over and over again that there’s good things to do and there’s bad things to do and there’s consequences and the consequences are your own consequences in terms of what that, how you will judge that later on.

Grant Cameron: [00:23:33] Okay. The way I see my Newton and I’ve studied Newton as much as anybody, is that when you have the life review, it is you basically reviewing your own life and that everybody is asked only one question. How did it work out? Cause you set up the play. You set up the volunteered for this, you volunteered for that.

We did this, we did that. And everybody says the same five-word answer. I could’ve done better. I forgot to do this. I was going to do that. And so when you, when you, when you get down to the whole thing, my definition of evil and there, there is evil. My definition of evil is all that we consider to be evil in the modern world.

It is the mistaken belief in separation. Once you believe that you are separate, then things become objects. We can do whatever we want, and we, we, do these things and when we have the judgment thing, we realize, Oh, we should’ve done that, should’ve done this. And I say that in the end we’re judging people.

Say whatever, whatever we have, we have a problem with this person. And in the end, I, I simply believe according to Newton, that you, if you do not understand this person’s position, you’re going to come back in that position to have empathy and understanding. We can go to, if you want to do scientific evidence, we’d go to Joe Bolte Taylor , neuroanatomist, no stupid woman who has the left-brain hemorrhage.

And she says that all of the idea of separation. Come show a little area the size of a peanut in your left brain, and she said, windows, windows, those neurons go offline as hers did when it was flooded with blood, she suddenly realized. I am not separate to, I am not. There is no ego. There is no I, I am one with the universe.

And the idea that you are separate from everybody else in the universe is an illusion. And she says it quite clear that if you listen to her, her interviews and her Ted talks, that it’s just an illusion that you think it’s like, do you think the world is flat? You think the world is coming around. The more evidence you get, the more you realize that it’s all.

It’s all one thing, and when you believe you’re separate, that I’m better than this person, I can use them. I can use objects, I can chop down the last tree, get the last fish out of the ocean. It really doesn’t matter. They’re just objects. I’m separate from them. Once you believe that that you are one, then you become like the Italian standing on the, on their their deck with their little cell phones, all singing as one that we have to realize that we are one.

We are all together and if we do not realize that we are. That we are one and that we are separate and we’re going to have me versus you. Good versus bad. We’re going to destroy the world. It’s all over except for the screaming and crying as far as I’m concerned. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:26:06] Okay. I have to say, grant, you’ve, you’ve really been, a key part of of this ongoing dialogue that I’ve been generating, these series of shows that I’ve been generating on the nature of evil, and.

Your voice inside my head has been ongoing because I agree, you know, philosophically and spiritually was so many of the things that you’re saying, but I, I just think you’re making some distinctions a little bit differently. Well, quite a bit differently than I would make. And it relates again to this ocean of consciousness that then becomes a blob of consciousness.

Here’s where I’m coming from and let’s see if I can. Corral you into this ongoing discussion I’ve had extended consciousness is something that you and I are both comfortable with. We’re comfortable with the notion you’re referring to contact modalities. I would. Kind of almost merge that with my I what I’m calling extended consciousness.

So the shamanic journey guy goes and licks the toad, and as a DMT experience, he’s in extended consciousness. The T experiencer is onboard a ship, but as you can see his body down there, he’s an extended consciousness. Your death experiencers good. Same thing, you know, w extended consciousness again, and I think you’re calling that.

Contact modalities. Here’s a point that I think is interesting that I haven’t heard a lot of people explore, and that is my contention that evil is a lens through which we can explore extended consciousness in a very real way. So I just popped up on the screen. Some of the people I’ve been interviewing about this evil, and I do it not because I’m particularly interested in evil or I’m particularly interested in.

Satanic ritual abuse, which is one of the topics that I cover, but take satanic ritual abuse. Really interesting topic. Okay. And I can bring back some of the people that I had up on the screen there, but Annika Lucas is interesting because she’s six years old when her mother sells her into slavery with a Colt, the turns out to be in Belgium.

This is unfortunately turns out to be a satanic cult. That not only sexually abuses, rapes these kids, but then murders them. And this is reported over and over again. So I have various other interviews with a bunch of people that confirm this, and there’s studies that confirm this. And there’s a, a Brown university scholar who’s done research on it, and I have up on the screen Bob hammer, who’s.

20 years FBI undercover agent who went in an infiltrated Mamula who was organized a pedophile ring that’s organizing these. Expeditions where these 50-year-old men can rape these young boys. The prison I go into, all that is two points. One is with anyone sensibility, anyone you’ll talk to they say that is, that is evil in just kind of the way that I would understand evil.

But here’s the kicker. Here’s the kicker and the important part that every once in my opinion seems to be looking past. In the case of satanic ritual abuse, these folks are actively seeking connection with the extended consciousness realms and beings in those extended consciousness realms in order to.

Further carry out the deeds. Now is that connection, what they’re getting out of that connection? We can only listen to what they say, but the fact, see for people who don’t believe, you know, like so many of the, academics, you know, I bought shit. It doesn’t matter what people believe about the extended consciousness realm, cause the extended consciousness rom doesn’t exist.

So it’s all just crazy belief system. It’s why people believe weird things. Cause they’re locked into their materialist paradigm. They’re humanist, materialists, atheist paradigm. And they don’t have to deal with any of this shit. But for people like you and I who acknowledge an extended consciousness realm, when somebody tells me, yeah, I’m abusing these kids and let me tell you this, Spirit being this entity in the extended consciousness realm, and he is really into it too, and he is bringing all this power into the group and he is doing these physical things. And if I do this ritual in a certain way, it brings even more power into me. And that’s my download. He says, that’s my experience.

It’s not just about me in this realm. It’s about me connecting with that extended realm. That is the lens. Grant that I would suggest catapults this into a whole different way that we have to look at it and understand it. And let me jump in there with one more really important point. I have no idea how it works.

I don’t understand the mind of God. I don’t have a map of extended consciousness realms to be able to say, this means this and this means that, but that data does compel me to consider this evil question much more. Interdimensional. Then I think most people are looking 

Grant Cameron: [00:31:25] at it. Okay. You said a lot of stuff.

I mean, when it comes to extending human consciousness, I would maybe see a little bit different. It’s all consciousness. There is no us and then extended consciousness. It’s all just consciousness and it’s the ability to get into the consciousness by shutting down. The left brain shutting down the rational analytical brain.

So it’s all, 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:31:47] hold on one minute. I don’t want to interrupt you too much, but see, this is part of the discussion that that Hey, I’m with you. We can go to sea of consciousness and then we can just shut down and have the discussion. But you just talked about 40 contact modalities that. Implicit in that is this idea that there is this extended consciousness realm that we connect to and do.

I’m just 

Grant Cameron: [00:32:06] defining how I see it, that it’s all consciousness and that we use, we shut down the left rational, analytical brain and we can pop in through these different modalities. So you get into the, to the, to this whole thing and the, the expression that that I’ve heard is if you’re higher self. If you believe that there’s a devil and there’s Satan, your higher self will come as the devil because if it comes as anything else, you’re not going to.

So whatever it is you want to manifest in your little consciousness realm, you can manifest, you can manifest good, you can manifest evil. There’s an experiment that was done in the 1970s in Toronto. It’s called a Phillip experiment. That where they create the ghosts, where they actually create a ghost and they make up this story about this ghost from the 16th century.

And then they start doing the meditation thing and they can’t get it to work. And then they start going into say, I was saying, and they actually produced this ghost that actually responds in levitates tables and all it does, all that sort of stuff. So what I would say is that everything that you do, your manifesting, and as much as we can build a building in the spiritual world and that anything that is negative there, we have manifested, we have created, cause it’s just us. There is just one. There is just me. There is not me. And then extended consciousness, it’s just me and I manifest and we have built these worlds. So if you commit suicide, you’re going to leave a very negative energy.

And my question to you is be, do you think that all of these people who do these very evil things at five years old have decided, I think I’m going to grow up and I’m going to be a pedophile and I’m going to molest little children and kill them and stuff like that. People don’t. It’s the same as when I went to a homeless shelter.

I worked at a homeless shelter and they said, take a look. These people did not decide to be here and homeless. And I’m think you’re just setting yourself up that you could go to the world and you say, Alex, after your your thing, you had a real problem with these pedophiles. Maybe what you should do, we’re going to send you back to be one of these pedophiles you can have understanding and then and understand why these people went down this road.

Cause people go down ultra through roads. Homelessness, alcohol, all sorts of things, and nobody intends to do it. It just happens. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:34:10] You’re just saying things that kind of contradict each other. I mean, well, yeah, you are, because it’s like on one hand you’re saying that, you know, none of these experiences really matter because we manage.

Best them all and we can manifest whatever we want. And then you tell stories, which I mean, look, maybe that came out the wrong way is too negative because this is all impossible, I think. And for us to fully understand or even partially understand with our limited, brain, I, I’m never going to figure this out.

I don’t know. But like. You know the story you told early on about the crystals and then you felt like there was some kind of confirmation in the 1988 UFO film with Dodi in it and the crystal that you talked about that thing like it’s real right. Well, why would, why do you feel like that’s real? And then all this other stuff is just manifestation?

You know, I just listened to an interview I interviewed not too long ago, Rob and Trish McGregor, who are two really interesting people. Fantastically successful authors written like a hundred books between them. Rob has written all the books for Lucas with the star Wars books anyways, he just published this interview cause in the interview I had with him, he told me about this guy in Texas, West Meeks. This guy’s a former police officer in Texas. One of the people you kind of trust. He’s talks about incredible autobody experiences, and he talks about physically all the autobody thing, being out of body, seeing things that are going on at a very young age, being able to follow his brother as he went to the bathroom at night and see him turn on the light and you know, and then later in life, he has the autobody experiences.

He travels to the spiritual realm. He sees the Akashic records. Now he sees the Akashic records different than I’ve heard anyone else see him, different jars, and stuff like that. He meets this woman, this woman shave shifts, and he has this incredible sexual experience with this woman. I mean, so that doesn’t immediately like throw this thing out the window, but if you listen to the whole account, you’re like, well, that doesn’t exactly jive with every other account I’ve heard of the Akashic records.

So you’re, you’re kind of forced to to go. Go ahead. 

Grant Cameron: [00:36:33] No, because what you’re doing is you’re manifesting, so all the accounts in the spirit world are going to have some variation because you’re creating it. It’s not like we’re here and then there’s this spirit world that has to stuff. Who are the contact modalities I do are number one, lucid dreaming.

And I do the, the psychedelic stuff with John Hopkins, the silicide and stuff. And they both say the same thing. They both say that you are creating, you’re manifesting in that world and that things are all symbolic. So in the, in the, the, the, the thing with Dennis Stanford with the lucid dream stuff, if you come up against the evil alien or the evil devil, and this is told quite clearly when you come up against it, if you go and you treat it with unconditional love and give it a big hug and kiss will turn into a

Positive being and give you a positive message. So it is all manifestation when we go in, when my friend goes into the spirit world with his mother, that’s all manifestation. There is no, there is no. Physical things is there was no time and space. There’s no physical thing. It is all ULI stuff. We are creating it all with our brain.

So when you go into the physical world, all the accounts of the Akashic records, all the accounts are going to have some sort of variation because it’s us that are manifesting. Even if you look at the Newton stuff, when people know, hang on, when people are Newton, ask them the question. When you are in the spirit world.

And you meet somebody, how do you know which body to present to that other person because you’ve lived a thousand different lives. And he said, it depends upon who I’m talking to. I can screen as images, whatever I want based upon the life I had with that person. It’s all a manifestation. It’s all ULI stuff.

It’s all created. There is no out there world. There is no spirit world. It’s all us creating this thing through our consciousness. We are all one. We come in, we make the separation, and we build this world based on a consciousness. It’s not like there’s consciousness and then there’s the spirit world and there’s consciousness and there’s a physical world.

It’s all a consciousness. It’s all created by consciousness. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:38:30] I’m with you too. To a certain extent. To a large extent. I am. 

Grant Cameron: [00:38:34] Except then you’re saying there’s a spirit world that has these attributes. No, it’s all 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:38:39] But you were saying a minute ago about how the planet is doomed unless we get together and start hugging trees are not strong white plastic bottles.

This is all manifested reality. Why? Why are you, why do you feel so comfortable making these judgements? I’ve heard you make, I heard you make judgments that the, that the ITI is basically more liberal in their politics than conservative. That’s absurd. It’s absurd. Crazy.

Grant Cameron: [00:39:13] It’s anything you’re capless for nailing nothing. It’s 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:39:15] absurd to say all the things that you’re saying, 

Grant Cameron: [00:39:20] something that’s capitalist about an alien, 


Alex Tsakiris: [00:39:23] Well look, I could pick tons of cases. Richard Doty, who you’ve cited a minute ago, is completely entrenched in the  machine, in whatever the game is that’s being played, in terms of… You’ve got me scrambling because it’s just so obvious and apparent that the PSYOP that’s been run and you’ve talked about, in terms of disclosure, all those guys are not playing the game that you’re you’re talking about. They’re playing a different game. They’re playing the control game, they’re playing the fear game, they’re playing the disinformation game.

Grant Cameron: [00:40:03] The separation game. They’re in separation, they’re in us versus them. There are bad guys around the world and we need to develop this to create some weapons. They’re into separation. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:40:14] And you’re against that, and you’re saying you’re against that? 

Grant Cameron: [00:40:17] I’m against separation, absolutely, I’m into oneness.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:40:19] You’re against it. Then you’re in the duality, my friend. 

Grant Cameron: [00:40:23] What do you mean, duality?

Alex Tsakiris: [00:40:24]  You’re in the duality. I’ll tell you a story I heard that I thought it was extremely relevant to this, and it’s a very touching story. The Dalai Lama reports that when the evil horrible communist Chinese came in and overran Tibet, and they did, they took this little country and they just took it over right, in the 1950s.

Grant Cameron: [00:40:48] As we did to North Vietnam, yeah.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:40:51] And then they dragged the monks out in the street and they made them fornicate in the street just to show…

Grant Cameron: [00:40:56] As we probably did in Vietnam, yeah. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:40:59] “We’re atheists and we want to show you how your beliefs don’t hold up to the barrel of a gun.” So this one monk went through this horrible experience and imprisonment with the Chinese, the evil Chinese. I’m going to throw that in, just to kind of rile you up a little bit. 

Grant Cameron: [00:41:20] In separation, yeah.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:41:21] And then he comes back and he’s recounting his things and he goes, “It was horrible. I experienced great, great, great danger.” And they said, “Wow, you really thought you were going to die at some point?” And he said, “No. I thought at some point I would lose my compassion. I would lose my ability to see that there is no separation.”

So I would suggest to you that you cannot, at the same time oppose this group or oppose this, what you see as capitalistic or inside/outside, and then say, “Oh no, because it’s all about consciousness and it’s all about no separation. But I’m not being separate. I just know these…

Grant Cameron: [00:42:08] I go along with it. I say that everybody’s going to be the 6-year-old girl at cage. Everybody’s going to be floating around the Mediterranean learning to drown. Everybody’s is going to wander the world. We don’t get to be the rich guy in America every single time. We don’t get to have the good life. Everybody’s going to get to play all the different roles. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:42:30] But you don’t know that, you don’t know that. In general I get what you’re saying, but the data doesn’t exactly conform to what you’re saying.

Grant Cameron: [00:42:38] The Newton data absolutely conforms. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:42:41] I already told you how you’re misinterpreting the Newton data and the Newton data is all about making good choices so that you can somehow… that there is an active process of transmuting this evil, if you will. That it is our job, our mission in this soul journey to do better. We don’t just, like you’re saying, “Well, you’re going to come back as a pedophile and you’ll experience that.” No, when you come back as a pedophile, I would suggest, my read of the Newton data, is you do what the person who rescued Anneke Lucas out of certain murder did. And that’s that that person rescued her, rescued that 10-year-old girl who was going to be killed because they had used her to the extent that they didn’t want her to escape and reveal their satanic ritual abuse plot. Even though he was a perpetrator, he pulled her out of that horror. He paid for it with his life, he was later killed. But he did, in that act, something that propelled his soul forward. 

So there is good, there is evil, there is choice and we make those choices all of the time. And to diminish that or to not see that, is to miss the whole point of the thing.

Grant Cameron: [00:44:06] The whole point is oneness versus separation, that when you believe in separation, you will do evil. And if you want to get rid of the evil, you have to go to oneness. If you believe that you and I are actually the same person, when I look in your eyes, I’m looking in my own eyes, then how can you do evil? How can I kill you? How can I do whatever? It’s the belief in separation that these people are objects, whether it’s the communist Chinese, whether it’s Richard Doty, everybody’s into their thing of separation, where it’s me versus the people outside of the country, or I need more stuff. And it’s always separation, that is the thing. And all evil, I will maintain, will disappear if you suddenly realize that everything is separate, everything is one. Almost like Jill Bolte Taylor said, “I’m one with the universe, I’m not an individual, that was an illusion.” 

Once you realize that you’re part of the universe, then you become like the Italians where you’re sitting there singing and you’re trying to survive together and it brings together. When you believe that you’re separate and that I am better than you and I am special, then that’s when evil takes place because we start treating people like objects and we move away.   

The mistaken belief in separation, so even though these people may believe in separation, it doesn’t exist. Just because people believe separation exists, it doesn’t exist.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:45:29] Yeah, we just keep repeating ourselves. I guess I’ll pull back two to one point to see if we can kind of nail this down and then we don’t have to just keep hammering on it. 

And I have to again repeat that it’s kind of funny because this ongoing dialogue, even if it looks like we are arguing a bit, has moved me forward, has propelled me forward. Because what I think is interesting about the satanic ritual abuse stuff, is that it’s a clear example where evil is trying to connect with evil in the extended consciousness realm. And I think, unless we look at that objectively and say, “Okay, that seems to be highly suggestive of the idea that…” We have to resolve inside in my opinion, we have to resolve relative to the near-death experience data and the between lives, Michael Newton data. And that is, there seems to be entities that are not actively trying to advance their soul in this timeframe that we’re in. They’re in that other realm and it’s an as below, so above world, where we all understand that we can look in this world and see people who choose to do horrible things to each other and to themselves. But now I think we have to face the evidence that somehow or another, in this extended realm, which is vast and multilayered, there seems to be entities that are of that ilk and we’ve seen them throughout history and we don’t really understand them. 

I stand with you in that I don’t think that is the part of the picture that we need to focus on and I think we can transcend that, I think we can transmute that, I think we can also actively not include it as part of our thing. But I kind of hear a little bit of a denial that there is even that reality.

Grant Cameron: [00:47:39] There is no separation. There are no evil people out there that are separate from the consciousness. There may be beings out there, there may be…

Alex Tsakiris: [00:47:48] Are there demons? 

Grant Cameron: [00:47:50] Okay, demons, so there may be beings out there, who like us, have believed in separation. And people will bring up the evil aliens, and so I say, “Okay, evil aliens, have they dropped an atomic bomb yet?” I mean, if there are these evil aliens out there, have they done this? Have they cremated, like the firestorm of 1945 or Tokyo where we dropped it on the civilian areas and we cremated 80,000 in two nights alive, civilians, have they done anything like this yet? 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:48:22] Why do you keep bringing that up as if that’s significant?

Grant Cameron: [00:48:25] Because we’re separating ourselves. We’re saying there are these evil things and we’re the good guys. We’ve done everything, we’re the light on the hill, we’re God’s gift to the world, we’re not. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:48:32] I’m not saying that.

Grant Cameron: [00:48:35] Nobody’s good enough to go to heaven. Nobody’s bad enough to go to hell. We’re all just floating around in between, in reincarnation, learning. The bible says, “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Judge not that you be not judged.” It goes over and over and over. There is no separation. There are people who have gotten into the belief of separation, that’s where evil comes from, end of story.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:48:56] Yeah. I always like it when people say end of story.

Grant Cameron: [00:49:00] That is the bottom line. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:49:03] To you it’s the bottom line, to me… 

Grant Cameron: [00:49:06] So you can bring up pedophiles. I’ll bring up, firebombings and atomic bombs. We’ve got people in Guantanamo Bay, 20 years without trial and without charges. Like we think we’ve got this thing, everybody has sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and it all comes from the belief in separation. When you believe there are terrorists who do not have rights and you can treat them as animals and as objects. The belief in separation, you are your enemy, your enemy is you, we are all the same thing.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:49:33] I don’t think that but I don’t understand how you feel so comfortable making these discernments, these judgments, but when other people make similar kinds of judgments, then you immediately dismiss that, that none of that can possibly be important or meaningful, those judgments, because it’s all about this single issue of separation.

The separation part, as I explained at the beginning, we are in sync. It is an ocean of consciousness, ultimately. That’s what the data comes back and says. What we’re trying to understand is the nature of all of the steps in between that ocean, all of the waves, all of the foam on the sea, all of the deep waters of it. And if you don’t want to make those distinctions, then don’t make them at all. But I don’t see how you can want to make and hold onto your distinctions about contact modalities and about crystals that review lives, but you’re uncomfortable with the distinctions that I’m making that are drawn from a lot of the same data.

Grant Cameron: [00:50:45] Part of the download I got is there are no nouns. As soon as you start saying there’s this, there’s that, there’s this, that is scientific religious superstition, that is creating nouns. There is only consciousness. There is one thing. It’s all consciousness and it will all unravel at some point in the future. Everything’s going to move towards the good. Everybody is just lost. Anybody who’s doing evil is believing in separation. To me it’s the bottom line, it’s all consciousness. It’s a verb, there are no nouns. When you start getting nouns you try to, this person, that person, this thing, that thing, it’s all just a sea of consciousness and we manifest in that sea of consciousness and we can create good things, we can create bad things. We are creating it all in consciousness and the bad is created by the belief in separation that you and I are separate.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:51:44] Then how was the good created? 

Grant Cameron: [00:51:48] There is no good, there is no bad. There’s just consciousness. There’s no good and bad, those are nouns. You keep going to scientific religious superstitions, all of the time you keep going to nouns. There are no nouns, it’s just consciousness.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:52:01] Grant, you realize that one minute ago, I can replay the tape, you said there’s good and then there’s bad and bad is the separation. 

Grant Cameron: [00:52:09] Perceived good and bad, perceived good and bad, things that move this way or that way. Negative energy, positive energy. But it’s all still just energy. It’s all still just consciousness. The good and the bad is all created by consciousness. There’s no good and bad separate from consciousness. It’s all consciousness. 


Alex Tsakiris: [00:52:25] All right, well we’ll ll wrap this up, but I want to play one more clip, for you because it’s a case that you are very, yeah, I’ve been very involved in and are very knowledgeable of, and it’s the Chris Bledsoe’s story.

 Richard Dolan did an excellent series of interviews with Chris. Here is a clip from that.

Chris Bledsoe: [00:52:46] and the church don’t want to believe it. They think demonic. The mood on a of world rejected it because of these individuals that were, controlling the thing. And. 

Here, I’m stuck 

and I’ve got these entities telling me, you got to tell your story.

You’ve got to tell your story. Tell what you know. And I told him, fun. I believe they were angels. I’ll just put it right out there and to do day. I’m pretty sure that’s what we’re 

experiencing. Maybe 

I’m wrong, but I don’t think so. Okay. There it is. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:53:23] So grant, tell us, because you have a history of being with Chris, you guys have a friendship, you are a researcher of that case.

Give people a little background, who he is, and then your interpretation of what he’s saying. 

Grant Cameron: [00:53:38] okay. Chris was a big-time business guy in cow in North Carolina. At his experience in 2007 sort of an awakening experience, him and four other people, including his son. he sort of falls off the edge of the earth.

He’s, very depressed. His wife tells him, you’re not going to talk about this to me. You’re not talking to the kids about it. he’s in a Southern Baptist Pentecostal area. He says, basically nobody that he works for will ever talk to him and his in laws have nothing to do with him. And he basically says for nine months in a room and basically praise to God to take them away that I can’t take this.

And. And then he has, an experience with what he called the, he calls it the Aruba lady in light. I call it the shining lady, has like an angelic type experience on almost exactly the same day. When I have my download experience in 2012, he has this encounter with this, shining lady. And, so he interprets his, experience based upon a biblical stuff, which I would tend to agree.

and he basically is pointing out the fact that he believes it’s a positive, a phenomenon. It’s, he’s, he’s relating it back to a religious, interpretation based upon this woman that it’s angelic. but he’s basically seeing it as a, as a positive experience. And there was some, some weird things that happened with him and me with this dog.

Bizarre thing was the dog bleeding and stuff like that. So, some of the stuff could be interpreted as kind of negative stuff, but, he basically looks at it as an angelic experience and he’s here like a Messiah to deliver a message to the world. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:55:06] Let’s add a couple other interesting points here. One, and you covered this, but you kind of went over it quickly.

Chris experience has multiple witnesses. He didn’t just experience this once and he didn’t just experience this all by himself, so that’s significant. He’s invited a number of very respectable researchers, including yourself, to investigate this with them, and they’ve all kind of come to the same conclusion.

This is an outstanding case in terms of evidential value. 

Grant Cameron: [00:55:41] he’s a guy that we would call like a, a high level of contact. He, and so what has happened is he has been contacted by a whole series of people. trying to find out why have you got this contact who you’re talking to.

And these include people like Jim who was, a top guy inside the CIA. I think ran covert ops for two years. and Jim sent me, van had the beans in Israel as well. And so he went to Chris to try to find out, you know, who is he dealing with? What’s going on here? And he’s had even, he showed me at one point to show you how, how high level these people may be who are trying to tap into Chris to figure it out.

Cause that’s what ha, that’s my impression is the government may have crashes material, they may have bodies, but they have no idea what’s going on. Cause it’s got to, it’s consciousness, it’s way above their pay grade. And so, He showed me at one point a metal that he had gotten. And I said to him, I said, well, what’s this metal?

Where’d you get this medallion from? And he said, I can’t tell. I can just tell you where it came from. And he flips the screen on his cell phone and it’s a, it’s a mailing ambulance from camp David. And then he, shows me, he talks about healing people. And you’ll see that with the UFO experience, it’s 50% of all experiencers claimed that they were healed or that they can heal other people.

Chris is. By far and away one of the best sort of known healers. There were people sending him clothes and he became sort of very famous for this, ability to heal. And he has, he has almost constant contact. You can, you can go to his place and he will call them in and they will appear. And that’s why the government and the military and all these people have so much interest in him is they’re trying to figure out what’s different with this guy.

How is he able to make contact and who is he actually dealing with? 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:57:24] What are your answer to that question? Because in some ways, that does seem to fly in the face of your, it’s only about separation kind of thing. We now have all these different actors and players involved, and you’re kind of saying good and evil and angels and healing and all that stuff.

And then we can also, in Chris’s story, also includes the kind of nefarious. Not so nice. I mean, he really gets raked over the coals by mu Fon. He, it’s a highly deceptive practice that they use to try and discredit him. There are some other players involved here that are clearly opposing what he’s doing, so you can make of that.

What you may, but that’s the part of the story as well. 

Grant Cameron: [00:58:07] Well, all the human figures are in separation. So whatever their thing is, their Mufasa is into, getting technology they’re into, he’s a bad guy. He felt lie detector test. the government is into, same thing. These could be evil aliens. They could be here to eat us or whatever.

And so they’re looking and everybody’s playing their own little thing based upon separation. But it comes down to. what did he experience? And his experience was a positive experience. He believed that these, these beings are here to help them. And I, I basically will say that his interpretation of what he sees.

Will be based upon his manifestation. So because he has a religious background, he’s going to see it in terms of a religious figure. It doesn’t mean that it’s not true, but he is, picking up out of the field. He’s been able to get in the field. One of the better to be able to bypass the noise and the left brain get into the field.

And he has a positive view of it, but the people outside and whether it’s the government or whether it’s new font or people, he knows, everybody’s doing their own little thing, like the same as the church. They had separation. I mean, he’s dealing with the devil. And he got, he was a, he was a deacon in the Pentecostal church and they’d throw him out because you’re dealing with the devil.

You are on the other side and it’s as good versus bad. And, 


Alex Tsakiris: [00:59:20] What about the people he’s healing Grant, are they in separation? 

Grant Cameron: [00:59:23] Well, sure there is separation, everybody’s in separation, but the people come for… 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:59:27] How is that even a meaningful term anymore Grant? When on one hand you seem to be making a distinction about how these evil Pentecostals threw them out because they thought it was all satanic and a narrow definition of Bible, but he has other people that he’s healing and he’s doing good. You do realize you’re kind of saying both all over the place.

Grant Cameron: [00:59:49] Just because a person gets healed, doesn’t mean they’re a good person or a bad person. They’re just a person. They get healed. 

Alex Tsakiris: [00:59:54] The healing process, you’re suggesting that  that’s a good thing. 

Grant Cameron: [00:59:57] The healing process, the Cadillac of all healing processes is the Bengston healing method. Bengston runs the Academy of Scientific Exploration, I went to Chicago to be trained on this healing thing, and what Bengston says is they do this rapid image cycling, which UFO experiencers report as well. It was reported in the 1994 school case where they see these images. And what Bengston teaches you to do is to flip these ego images in your brain. You get 20 of them, you flip them, and they teach you how to flip these things at 1000 or 2000 a second, and they teach it, and what it does is it shuts the left brain down. Because the ego… this is how it works. Listen, you’re laughing but this is how it works. Bengston says nobody is doing the healing. With this process, what it is, is to get the healer out of the way, and once the ego, the healer gets out of the way, the left brain gets shut down, then the energy flows and the healing takes place. But it has nothing to do with whether people are good people or bad people. There are methods of healing, some people can do it, and it has to do with getting the healer out of the way and allowing the energy to come through.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:01:06] We keep going round and round. 

Grant Cameron: [01:01:09] I don’t see what you’re trying to get at. Because he heals somebody then there’s a bad guy and there’s a good guy? It’s like crazy stuff. It’s like we’re into this thing where…

Alex Tsakiris: [01:01:20] But Grant, that’s what you keep saying. You’re story suggests that there’s an element of good to some of these things and your story also… And then you have this thing built in, where as soon as you say that, then when I point out that you’re kind of saying, “Hey, he sees it as an angelic experience, he sees it as a positive experience, that’s his report that there is good and that he should move towards the light,” and all of this, then it’s like, “Well, that’s just his interpretation.”

Grant Cameron: [01:01:49] It is, it’s all interpretation.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:01:52] Everything is everybody’s  interpretation. Like you were quoting me Ray’s survey right? And you made a big deal out of only 9% thought it was evil. That doesn’t mean anything based on what you’re saying. If you want to go with stats, when let’s look at the stats and let’s look at Jeff Long’s stats and he says it, like in the 90%, that people believe from their experience, directly from experience, that there is God as we would understand it. That there’s a hierarchy of consciousness, there is a moral imperative. That’s a 90 percenter Grant.

So you can say, “ You don’t believe it, that’s just separation.” You can just shout me down but that’s the data we have. So you can just say, “Well, that data, I don’t care.”

Grant Cameron: [01:02:40] It’s all created by consciousness, nothing is separate from consciousness.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:02:43] The data suggests otherwise. The data suggests otherwise. I just gave you the data. 

Grant Cameron: [01:02:46] With out-of-body experience you have moved into a contact modality, the same as you do with healing, that you have gotten into the field. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:02:54] You don’t know that. We’re just looking… Why were you comfortable reporting Ray’s data and you want to shout me down when I reported Jeff Long’s near-death experience data?

Grant Cameron: [01:03:05] Because the modern view of UFOs is they’re evil aliens. And when you actually talk to the experiencers, which is what I say you have to do, you’ve got to talk to the people who are interacting with the phenomena and listen to what they’re saying. And when you look at the data, the idea that there are evil aliens is total nonsense. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:03:23] We’re not arguing that, we’re arguing whether there is anything at all like evil. Do you see, there’s a difference between saying what percentage of the aliens are evil and saying, is there such a thing as evil . And what I’m reporting to you and you haven’t really directly responded to, is Jeff Long, data, most recent bestselling New York Times bestselling book, he’s a guy who’s just following the data. He says, hierarchy of consciousness, yes. God, yes. Moral imperative, yes. At a super high percentage, like 90%.

So how do you counter  that data other than just to say, no, no, no?

Grant Cameron: [01:04:08] I don’t say no, no, no. I say that when you go into an out-of-body experience and you have your situation, or you have the life review when you die, in the Newton work, which is 35,000 regressions, then it’s basically the fact that people judge themselves and they realize, “I could’ve done this better. I could’ve done that better.” But it all still comes down to the belief in separation, that when you believe that you’re separate, then you make these…

Alex Tsakiris: [01:04:36] Jeff Long doesn’t say that, that’s not Jeff Long’s finding. Jeff Long’s finding doesn’t contradict that directly, but that is not his finding. His finding is God, and that’s an uncomfortable word, but it’s the best kind of colloquial phrase we can use. They come back and report hierarchy of consciousness, beings that they understand at the time to be, if you will, somewhat further on the path, somewhat higher. That’s the finding Grant. So you can sweep that under the rug and say it’s irrelevant, but that’s the finding.

Grant Cameron: [01:05:12] I don’t disagree. That’s the Newton thing. The Newton thing has you just have the different levels of beings, based upon their knowledge of separation and oneness and that it goes color. So it’s the white color and then it goes up to yellow and then it goes to blue and then it goes to mauve. The colors of the higher spiritual beings, yes, that’s all true. But it doesn’t mean that they came out of somewhere, they all went through the same process. You and I will go through that process and we can elevate ourselves in the spiritual world, but it’s done by one thing, separation and oneness. That if you do separation, you’re going to move down the scale and if you do oneness, you’re going to move up the scale and you’re going to move towards…

And the idea of God is just a noun, it’s all consciousness, there is only one thing, call it whatever you want, it is consciousness. I disagree with these names, and this is good and bad and this and that, and it’s all manifestation. And you see that in the near-death experience and you see that in, especially in lucid dreaming where you can actually change the scene in the lucid dream and I go back to where I started. If you’re going to refer to near-death experiences, you take the near-death experience and you do the oneness, you put it in a Google search, that girl’s video will come up and she says, her impression, based upon her experience was, there are no victims, there are just volunteers. And I have talked to people who have had that and have questioned them at length, “Are you sure that’s what you were told?” And that’s what happened.

You mentioned this girl in the whole deal with Martini’s video, when she’s in the death camp. She says, “I volunteered for that,” and Martini looks over the camera and he says, “That is the most inappropriate thing I have ever heard.” And that’s the whole idea, is it random or is this just a big play where we come in and you kill me this time and I kill you. That really gets into Newton’s stuff, which is really out on the edge, that people really can’t accept the fact that there are no victims. We like to be Jesus, we like to get up on the cross and say, “Oh, we’re being persecuted, my god, everybody’s against us,” and stuff. And basically we’ve got to get off the cross, they need the wood. 

This idea that we are victims, once you take responsibility, whatever’s happening, if you take responsibility for the fact that you may have encountered, you may have brought these things into your life, you will start to advance. As long as you think you’re a victim and that you’re being abducted or the government’s after you or whatever, you are never going to resolve anything. You have to take responsibility for the fact that maybe I put these things in my way, I put these stones in my path and that everything that happens to me is going to happen for a reason. 

What basically is happening is we’re playing a game, we’re sitting at the poker table and they’re dealing us the cards and we can’t take responsibility that we’ve got to play the cards we’re dealt. We just sit there and we’re whining and playing and we want the dealer to keep changing the deck. Don’t deal me bad cards, just deal me good cards. We have to play the cards we’re dealt and I say personal responsibility, whatever happened to me, I agree that I put that in my path and I agree to it and I’m going to play it the best way I can.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:08:20] I almost feel like this is a good place to end. There are so many points to that that I agree with. I just can’t get through to you on the points that I guess… I mean, we’re just slicing the same stuff a bunch of different ways. I don’t disagree with the personal responsibility, but you know, all those colors that you mentioned, colors are nouns, right? So it’s the white and the blue.

Grant Cameron: [01:08:50] It’s a description. So people will describe what they think they’re seeing.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:08:54] But Grant, you can’t have it both ways. 

Grant Cameron: [01:08:56] Alex, it’s all screen image, let me give you an example. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:09:00] No, you can’t. You can’t have it… You can give me all the cases and we don’t disagree on the cases.

Grant Cameron: [01:09:07] It’s all screen image, there is no physical. This is not physical. It’s all a screen image. 

I’ll give you an example. My father was a very sort of skeptical type guy. Two days before he dies, his father comes to see him. Now, was it his father that came to see him? Because his father would have lived a thousand different lives and if it was his father, why did he come as my grandfather? Because if he had come as anything else, my father wouldn’t have known who he was, it wouldn’t have meant anything. He screen imaged, he came across.

I’ll give you another example, Sherry Wilde, I don’t know if you’ve interviewed her. She goes onboard the ship and she says at 15 years old, she’s onboard the ship and they bring out Albert Einstein, Albert Schweitzer, and they bring out Tesla and they bring out a bunch of famous people. And of course I said to her, I said, “Okay, you saw these people, you talked to them.” And I said, “Okay, were they physical? Were they physical human?” And she says, “I know exactly where you’re going with it, and I’ll tell you what. It may have been a hologram, but they sure looked real to me.” 

So that’s the question. Did Albert Einstein actually come back into the physical body and come on a ship or is this all screen imaging? It’s all [unclear 01:10:14]. You learn that in the lucid dream stuff, when you go in there and you can actually change the characters, you can actually move things around and the lucid dream people will say it’s more real than the real world, which means, this is the dream.


Alex Tsakiris: [01:10:28] I know I’ve heard all that stuff too. But I’ve also heard of physical manifestations of people that are as real as you and me. So there’s all sorts of different 

Grant Cameron: [01:10:36] accounts.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:10:40] Well, screen image is a very kind of touchy kind of phrase, especially when we get into this idea that it’s all consciousness that in somehow we’re co-creators of a reality, that there’s an, you know, we started this, we never even got into it. You know, I interviewed, do you know Riz Virk. He has a book called The Simulation Hypothesis.

Brilliant guy, MIT compute computer game labs. So he’s like a super-duper gaming guy and done really, you know him. 

Grant Cameron: [01:11:10] Yeah, I know that it’s an important idea. The idea of the, of the, and that’s where we’re going. So when I started in 2012 this was, this was not really talked about, but now we’re talking simulation hypotheses.

We talk about the experiments. It was done with the kids that played the gaming thing where they’re in the dream and suddenly they’re being chased by an evil whatever, and they go. Oh, fantastic. And they turn around and they, they shoot them. They think this is great. It’s all, it’s, it all goes to the thing that we’re now starting to learn.

It may all be just a giant hologram, a giant simulation. It’s all just a game. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:11:41] simulation of what, how do you deal with the infinite regress? The infinite regress is when people say it’s a simulation. It’s a simulation of what? What is it simulating? Is there some abnormality that it’s simulating and is that reality?

Grant Cameron: [01:11:55] Well, I’m not backing the simulation. I’m just saying that we’re moving more to said, 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:11:59] you said it’s a simulation? No, I’m saying 

Grant Cameron: [01:12:01] it’s the, that’s the term that’s being used now, and we’re getting closer to the idea that it’s all just really stuff. It’s all just an illusion. It’s just, it’s like the Maya stuff fits.

It’s not 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:12:12] really a physical. They get that. It is my end. We’ve been talking about that forever. But then why do you tell these stories. Why do I tell these stories? Because they’re meaningful to us in some way in terms of navigating our experience. You can’t just trounce all over everybody.

No. You don’t know if your stories in your interpretation of it are more valid than somebody else’s interpretation of it, and, and to reduce, to, to keep insisting that you will. Arbitrarily at your given moment, reduce, flatten everything down to it’s all consciousness and therefore it’s all separation that loses its meaning.

It takes the meaning out of all out of a lot of these stories. So. 

Grant Cameron: [01:13:04] I just put it out there as a theory, which is now starting to be validated. You can even go back to the quantum physics. Nothing gets behind consciousness. All of these quantum physics guys seem to realize that back in the day, that consciousness or John Wheeler, it’s a participatory universe.

We’re starting to realize this is going to be the case. It may not be right. But more and more as I go along and there’s more and more evidence that validates that theory that it’s just all a big illusion is all just a big thing. There is no physical, there are no nouns. It’s just us manifesting from the one we are all the one 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:13:37] final question.

You just use the word us. One of the problems I have with a lot of people who spin this stuff out there is invariably. Our human consciousness works its way into the center of the story. We kind of have this tendency to be kind of egocentric about things, and it’s about our consciousness and how we manifest and we bring these things into existence.

Doesn’t that seem a little bit misplaced in terms of that we have some special role to play in this and that our consciousness is somehow special in some way? What do you 

Grant Cameron: [01:14:14] think. Let me go back to Joe Bolte Taylor. She said that when she had the left-brain hemorrhage and when her left brain went offline, she realized, I am not an individual.

That is an illusion. I am one with the universe. There is just one

Alex Tsakiris: [01:14:31] Yeah. Okay, keep going. But you keep using the term us. Do you believe, I’ll make it a real specific question. Do you believe that are manifestation of consciousness is somehow special, unique, different than let’s say, let’s hypothesize about two other beings? Let’s hypothesize about an E T a visitor of a physical.

Biological visitor from another planet. One of the questions I always pose to people is, what do you think E T C’s in its life review? So my question is , the consciousness experience that ITI is manifesting. How was that. Different, similar, better, worse. Then ours. And then the other example I’d say is a spirit entity.

we have after death communication, people are connecting with spirits. Same question for that. What is there experience in terms of manifesting consciousness. And you can adjust that. It’s all one. It’s all the same. There’s no separation. It’s all just one because there’s three different things there.

There’s and there’s the spirit. 

Grant Cameron: [01:15:50] No, there’s no nouns. There’s just one thing. So you have ETS that are masquerading as ETS. You have spirit guides that are masquerading as they’re, they’re in the, they have their one with us. There’s no separation there. One with us, they’re higher. They’re higher. beings that have separated, we’ve all separated.

We’d come across the river forgetfulness. And when you talk about the, the, the, the beings, I believe they’re higher, understanding. They understand oneness. That’s the number one message that’s given to experiencers. You cannot get off the planet unless you understand its oneness. That was the question that was asked by Jan Hartson to Ben rich from lucky skunkworks.

He said, how do they get here? How does it work? Ben rich said, what do you know about ESB? And he said, it means everything in time, spaces connected. So that’s how it works. There is no time, there is no space, there is no physical universe. It’s all one thing. And when you realize you’re going to get off the planet, as long as you believe there’s separation and there’s them and us, we aren’t going anywhere.

So it’s all the same thing. It’s just a different. A different element. It’s just a different spirit and that’s why writing the book T or maybe not, and I looked 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:16:53] at our new, why are you writing the book? If it’s all the same, it’s all, 

Grant Cameron: [01:16:56] well, they used to believe that there was actual ETS that were coming from other planets, and the more you look at it, you go, no, this looks like spirits.

This looks like a 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:17:04] not to me. No, it looks like ETS from other planets and spirits and shamanic journeying and all that other stuff. 

Grant Cameron: [01:17:11] And they all came out of the one. They all came out of the wine. They decided, I’m going to keep, 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:17:14] why are you writing the book? Why are you’re writing the book? Because it’s, I’m just going to say, I’m going to say it’s all, it’s all one.

A grant. Grant has all the contact modalities, but it’s all one. It’s all about consciousness. All those reports are a waste of time. All the stories are waste of time. They’re not always all one. It’s all one. It’s all old homelessness. 

Grant Cameron: [01:17:33] All the material leads us back to the fact that it’s all one thing that they do 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:17:37] up that.

I got that at the beginning of my talk about it. Well, I talk about the fall one. It’s all one. 

Grant Cameron: [01:17:42] If you look at the FREE survey, there’s so many people say, I was an alien last time. There’s a bunch of people. John Denver believed he was an alien. He 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:17:48] believed the case. I looked at internet. It’s all one. It doesn’t matter.

John McCray. John Denver’s, 

Grant Cameron: [01:17:52] you’re going to come back. You’ll come back as an alien next time you come back. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:17:57] It’s all one. It’s all one consciousness. Doesn’t matter. Everything you say, it doesn’t matter. 

Grant Cameron: [01:18:02] It doesn’t matter. You don’t say it doesn’t matter. I don’t say it doesn’t matter. I just say it. It’s all what.

You’re the one that’s putting the nouns and saying, this matters. This is important. This is 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:18:10] it’s not hallucinate or then grant, how does it matter? How does it matter? 

Grant Cameron: [01:18:14] Because I have a path that I have to take and I’m trying to figure out what’s the path that’s supposed to take and what I’m supposed to do and it comes down to there is no time.

There is no space living in the moment, live lit. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:18:26] How could what you do possibly matter? It’s all good. 

Grant Cameron: [01:18:30] It’s all one. Yeah, but 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:18:31] did you, you could watch you do possibly matter. How can doing anything make a 

Grant Cameron: [01:18:37] difference? Because it will influence other people. Other people will say, Oh, I understand 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:18:41] that. So, so other people do something different.

How does that make a difference? 

Grant Cameron: [01:18:46] Let’s say it’s a learning light 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:18:48] it in learning, there’s the learning. You just, you come in here, the this time you’re the evil alien next year doesn’t make any difference. Well, what do you mean learn? What do you mean? Learn 

Grant Cameron: [01:19:00] your understanding and empathy. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:19:03] Your P O R understanding and empathy.


Grant Cameron: [01:19:07] Absolutely. You’re saying, okay, sanding 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:19:11] and empathy are good. Something is good. We want to move towards something that’s good. 

Grant Cameron: [01:19:16] Right. Exactly. I agree. So you, you, it’s a process of learning of me, understanding how does this work and what’s my role. And then when I saw Michael Newton and I saw that he influenced me, I realized like, Oh, this makes sense that there is this, this, this path and that you take responsibility for your stuff.

You live in the present moment and you live, you live for others rather than for self. And that’s basically what I come down to. And I take personal responsibility. I don’t try to blame the Russians or the Jews 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:19:48] because you realize this is kind of goes against what you were saying earlier, but that’s okay.

I get it. Cause I think that’s where your heart really has at. And it’s where my heart is at is we have to try and. Do we have to try and do the right thing? There is a moral imperative. There is a reality to, to goodness, righteousness, and there’s the opposite of that too. So we should resist it with our choice, with our consciousness.

We should resist doing things that move us away from that. So that’s what I was trying to say from the 

Grant Cameron: [01:20:17] beginning. Okay. I agree with you. But when it comes to other people, you have to have empathy. That was the lesson that was turned to me about the homeless. I was at 500 per person, only shelter, and the first lesson they teach you is take a look around.

Nobody planned to be here, but when you say, Oh, they’re bad guys, what are they just go and stop drinking and get a job and we don’t have the empathy. We don’t have an understanding that they’re, but for the grace of God, go I and that if I were in their shoes and walked around, then maybe I’d understand maybe why they’re doing what they’re doing.

That’s all I’m saying. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:20:47] I totally get that on one level, on another level, you know, political debates, I think. I think in a lot of ways, and this is part of the problem with this ongoing dialogue, that we’re having political debates divide us in a way that really does create the separation, to use your words, because to suggest that.

You know, one political point of view or one economic point of view is inherently better than another. Yeah. No, I, I think we have just too many examples where it’s really, I’ll just go back to what you said. It’s in our heart already to know what is right. It’s not that complicated and we should try and do what’s right and it probably will wind up being a pretty good decision to make in the grand scheme of things that’s due.

What thou wilt. I 

Grant Cameron: [01:21:46] agree. I agree. Let me make, let me make one final point on oneness. You are the United States of America, the most powerful country in the world because it’s the United States of America, and you now have separation. You have half the people believe one thing. Half the people believe the other thing.

And there’s actually people posting, friends of mine went and posted and said, we should actually take these people up and line them up and shoot them. So now you have a separation understanding where it’s. One American versus another American. And when you get separation, you’re going to get division, you’re going to get killing and it’s going to go downhill.

As the United States of America was the most powerful country and they liked to the world because they believe they were one. They were all the same, all created under God. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:22:26] What point in history are you pointing to? Cause the more I read about and study my American history, the more I, I don’t see this golden era that you’re talking about.

Grant Cameron: [01:22:38] Well the, the fact that you had a situation where you, in Congress, you could actually pass a bill in the house. You’ve got 250 bills that don’t even pass that you have this total demand 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:22:48] period. What period are you talking about 

Grant Cameron: [01:22:50] within the last year where you can put 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:22:52] what period in the past are you talking about?

Where there was this golden age where democracy and freedom rained and there wasn’t corruption and. 

Grant Cameron: [01:23:04] Well, there’s always going to be crushing, but 20 years ago you could actually pass a bill. Now you can’t even pass a bill. It’s totally dividing. So 20 years ago, 20 years ago, where people were saying, there’s 50% we’re saying we should kill the other 50% which gets, you know, this kind of stuff.

This is new. 


Alex Tsakiris: [01:23:18] 9/11 was an orchestrated event that was designed to destroy the fourth amendment, which it did. It’s never been restored. A lot of people think it was also designed to kind of cramp down on the first amendment and the second amendment, which it seems to be heading in that direction. That’s what happened 20 years ago, so 20 years ago is a glory day? 

Grant Cameron: [01:23:45] That is separation again. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:23:47] But no, you said 20 years ago, so pick a different date.

Grant Cameron: [01:23:49] At no time am I saying it’s perfect, I am saying it is better before than it now. Because at no point did you have a situation where somebody can stand up and make a speech, and 50% of people will see one speech and the other 50% of people will see a completely different viewpoint, it is completely divided. And the more it divides, the more you’re going to get into a situation where you’re going to have civil war and you’re going to have Americans fighting Americans. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:24:17] If you were playing the chess board, and don’t you dare use separation in your answer to this. If you were playing the chessboard and you were trying to win, right? Because you thought winning, and you thought winning meant controlling the herd, then, might you not see an advantage in divisiveness? Might you not see an advantage in…? 

Grant Cameron: [01:24:43] Absolutely. Fear sells. Like this lecture is not going to sell. Fear sells. It makes money. We cleaned the stock market every 12 years. The big guys go and take the money off the board and then buys stuff back at 30% on the dollar. Yeah separation and division sell, it makes lots of money, I will agree with that.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:25:00] And I would say that it’s not really about the… I mean, ultimately it can be about the money, but it’s also about the herd. It’s about the control. And when people are afraid, when people feel isolated, when people feel, I’ll use the word separation, they are much easier to control.

Grant Cameron: [01:25:22] And the people that are doing the controlling, believe in separation, they believe that I am here and you are just an object that I am going to use. Whether you’re a child, whether you’re a person’s money, whatever. I am the guy, you are just an object. When you suddenly realize that the people that you are taking their money or doing whatever you’re doing to them, when you realize, that is me, that’s when you suddenly realize that you’ve got to stop doing it because we are all the same person.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:25:51] I agree with you, I just don’t think that maps quite as directly onto the political process as you do. The notion that there is a political solution to this or that there’s a group, a party, that somehow stands separate from that.

Grant Cameron: [01:26:09] No, there isn’t, because they’re all doing the ego thing. They’re saying, “There’s a problem, and I’m the good Messiah who’s going to save the thing.” That’s not how it works. It’s got nothing to do with politics. It’s just another division game. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:26:20] Well, I think the Jeffrey Epstein case has so much more to say to this, and if you really look at brownstoning and sexual blackmail, and you know, you really start tracing it back and you go, “Oh wow, Roy Cohn. Oh wow, back in the 80s. Oh wow, there it is, it pops up back in the 60s. Oh, I just listened to a guy who wrote an excellent book about Watergate.” That’s ultimately was Watergate was about, a madam, a DC madam who had a little black book and was sexually blackmailing… 

This is an ongoing game, I just interviewed John Brisson about the Finders Cult. If no one’s ever heard about that, again, if you’re in intelligence, if you’re in one of the alphabet letter intelligence organizations and you are tasked with infiltrating and winning against some foreign government, well you can do a bunch of other stuff. But when somebody goes, “You know, that guy’s into eight-year-old boys and I can  procure for you, that eight-year-old boy and get him in this hotel room. We can videotape the whole thing. And we got that motherfucker, we got him for life.”

Now, even if you’re a standup guy in the CIA, that is super-duper tempting, because you’re like, you know, “We’ve been trying to crack the code with Egypt for 20 years and we can’t do it, but if I just do this one evil deed and if I just further destroy the life of this eight year old boy, I can, in this balancing act, I can accomplish all of these good things against these people,” kind of thing. 

So, I don’t have the same lens that you do on politics, I think politics is always a dirty win at all costs game, and I think the only way out is to be completely out of it and to be completely apolitical, and I think it comes down to compassion. All of the things that you care about, I care about. We both resonated with the Dalai Lama story of the monk who comes back and says, “I almost lost it all. I almost lost the ability to see my worst enemy as just another part of me,” which is what you’ve been saying all along. 

Grant Cameron: [01:28:36] Yeah. And so when it gets to a political or sexual thing, it always comes down to this person is separate from me, they are an object, I need to use this object in order to benefit me, or I think I’m going to do something good by doing this.” Once you see a person or a thing as an object, it is there to be used and to be benefited by, and you really lose the idea that everything is conscious, everything is sentient, everything is God, and once you realize that you stop doing all of this crazy stuff to things that we believe are just objects, it’s just an object,  it’s just a person, it’s just a a bad guy from another country, it’s just an oppressor or whatever. Once you can make that separation, then you can do all manner of evil.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:29:24] Our guest again has been ever so magnificent Grant Cameron. I hope you’ve enjoyed this conversation. The give and take which you can only get into with people that you really respect at this level and you admire this level.

Grant, in the time that we have left, please tell people how to stay in touch with your work and what’s coming up. When are these books coming out? Apparently you said the Contact Modality book is coming out right now. What about the [unclear 01:29:51] book? We didn’t talk about any of that, when is that out? 

Grant Cameron: [01:29:55] I’ve got about maybe six books that are sort of in editing. I’m not really into that part of the thing. I’m more into the discovery. So, I’m now into physical mediums, people who are able to bring Louis Armstrong into a room and play and produce [unclear 01:30:09] So I’m still the research guy. Most of my stuff will be on my White House UFOs YouTube channel. where I put a lot of interviews that I do with people who I think have an interesting story to tell. That sort of goes into this kind of stuff. 

I’m doing a book on Mount Shasta, which is an experience when I was at Mount Shasta, where they had this being appear there, the Mission Rama people, if you know that whole story, I was there when this happened. I documented the whole weekend in a book. And the [unclear 01:30:37] book  is extremely important, the manifestation in a port. But again, they’re all lined up and if they get published, they get published, if they don’t, they don’t. I’m really not that concerned. I’m more interested in chasing down, what I think are very interesting people who have stories.

And my main thing now is the link between the spiritual world and the UFO world, which is going to be detailed in this book, Extraterrestrial or Maybe Not. I look at all of the problems with the extraterrestrial theory. 

Alex Tsakiris: [01:31:04] You know, when I hear you talk like this, I wonder how we even managed to disagree on everything. I’m so in line with all your fabulous work and everything that you’re doing and ultimately we are of the same heart. 

Grant Cameron: [01:31:15] Oh yeah, we’ve had some good discussions and I think this discussion will help. I think this is what people need to hear. Even though it may sound a little controversial, 10 years from now, I don’t think it’ll be as controversial as it is now, because people are just starting to get into this. And you and I, and I say this to the people in the UFO community. I have a new assistant, a Sinead Whelehan who’s joined me and she just had her awakening about eight months ago, and I keep telling her, “Sinead, you’ve got to realize, there are only a couple of people who know what… When you talk about consciousness, you may have people in the UFO community who use the word, they have no idea. It’s only at your level in my level that people actually understand the connection to the near-death experience, to the spirit world, to all this kind of stuff.” Very few people understand the consciousness angle and I keep warning her, I say, “You’ve got to realize, there are not that many people and we are the first people, were on the front line of this thing.”

So 10 years from now, I think you and I, the conversations we’ve had, will mean a lot more to people. They will suddenly catch on that this is an important aspect. Right now, everybody’s still into, you know, where are the aliens from? What’s the technology, free energy, and they’re into that whole nuts and bolts thing. You and I are one of the few people I think, that are on the leading edge of this consciousness thing, which I believe is going to answer all of the questions.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:32:28] Grant, awesome having you on, thanks again.

Grant Cameron: [01:32:33] Beautiful. Thank you. Alex.

Thanks so much for Grant Cameron for joining me today on Skeptiko. As I said during the interview, there’s a lot of heated exchanges between Grant and I, but that’s mainly because he’s a guy I can get to level three with on this discussion and I want to get to level three with you. So let me throw out a question. It’s the question I always tease with and that’s, what is ETC  and its life review? And the reason I like that question is it kind of immediately catapults us into all of these important questions about the moral imperative? Is there good? Is there bad? Are we obligated to try and do something for some reason and it also obviously brings into focus these extended consciousness realms and these beings, whether they be spirit beings, ET beings or no beings at all, if you’re a completely materialist atheist, that might exist in these extended consciousness realms.

So let me know your thoughts to that question and the place to do it, of course, is the Skeptiko Forum. Please join me over there. I’ve said this before but I’ll repeat it. One of the real pleasures I get out of this show is interacting with you, you folks who listen to it and have so many fantastic ideas. I’ve gained so much from people who share with me new information, things that they’re learning, things that they’re experiencing. That’s so, so much a part of this whole experience for me. And I’ve just found that the Skeptiko Forum is a good place to do that. So if you haven’t been over there in a while, come back, see what’s going on, be part of that community, join us, talk to us and let’s get that dialogue going.

And of course, while your fingers are typing, be sure to check out, where you can download all of these shows for free or just grab the link and share it with someone who you think needs to hear this information. I kind of have this idea that the right person finds a way to share this show with the right person who needs it at the time that they need it. That’s my fantasy that I play in my head, so see if that works for you.

I do have a number of great shows, I think, coming up. Please say with me for all of that. Until next time, take care and bye for now. [box]

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