Dr. Gayle Kimball has interviewed leading scientists and thinkers to understand the frontier beyond the mainstream.
photo by: Skeptiko
That’s a clip from the movie I, Robot. It covers territory that’s pretty well-worn at this point. Will consciousness rise up in the robots and take over the world? But I think there’s a deeper and more relevant and certainly more immediate question that comes to mind with what it means to being human, and it’s explored quite beautifully by today’s guest, Conner Habib.
Conner Habib: [00:00:47] I now use the question rather than what is consciousness, that is important to me, but I think what is the human being is my question that I try to unfurl everything from.
I can’t just do this bullshit thing, which people do all the time, which I find completely objectionable, which is, well, you just take the good and you leave the bad, just move on with the good stuff, because that doesn’t address the foundational thing that you bring up all the time. What I need to do is find out how the good and the bad are entangled and liberate that philosophy from itself.
Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics.
I’m your host, Alex Tsakiris. And today we welcome dr. Gayle Kimball to Skeptiko. Gayle is a professor Emeritus from Cal State Chico and was the first coordinator of their women’s studies program. She’s also a Nautilus award winning author. We’re going to talk about some of her great books today.
And, you know, one of the great things about Gayle is she is familiar with the Skeptiko drill.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:02:37] You did, you know, do you remember that? I interviewed you last year, so I’m very familiar.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:02:47] I do, and I really appreciate it. I think we have a chat. And I really look for having that kind of chat again today, because, you know, as I just mentioned, you have these books that are really right up our alley here at Skeptiko and the kind of stuff that you know, we talk about and that you’re passionate about too,
in terms of materialism reality consciousness and all the rest of that. So let’s start then by at least. Describing these books. Talk about what they’re about mysteries of reality, mysteries of knowledge, beyond our senses and mysteries of healing, the mysteries trilogy, but it’s really quite an accomplishment.
And the list of people that you’ve interviewed for this for these books is super impressive and will be known too. A lot of people who listen to the show will immediately recognize so many of the folks that yeah. Talk to. So tell us about this project, how you got started, we’ve done it. And what people are going to find when they go to these books.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:03:54] way it started is I do energy work and I was trained to do clairvoyant and healing work techniques from the Berkeley psychic Institute. And it’s all with intention and visualization and it’s not hands on. And so I wanted something as part of my. Personal practice that involve the body in a more specific way.
So I was really drawn to the energy psychologies where you tap on acupressure points and work within the radians. So that kind of thing, So I went to the Canadian energy psychology conference in Toronto in November of 2018. And you know, I’ve been to all kinds of those conferences before, but the science and consciousness kind of conferences, but.
It just struck me. Here are these people with PhDs and MDs who are doing distance healing. And it just it’s so unusual in terms of the dominant materialist paradigm of how scientists and graduate school educated people are and their belief system. I thought I’ve got to talk to these people. I need to explore more how you can have the courage to.
Oppose the dominant paradigm that says doing research inside phenomena is like, why would you want to study? Can pigs fly? Alcott and Rieber, they obviously, we don’t study pig slime because they don’t fly. They have the same attitudes towards siphon nomina. So it takes a lot of guts to do this kind of research and writing.
So I wanted to find out personally why they have that kind of courage because most academics, I would say don’t and I wanted to see what they could. Tell us about what’s real. And I think you and I share a quest that we assume a lot of people do, but maybe they don’t as to why are we here? What’s the meaning of life?
how does reality work? What’s real. And so I had those two, two goals in mind, who are they as people that they have, this kind of courage and what can they tell us about what’s
Alex Tsakiris: [00:06:21] real? Let me ask you this because you know, even in what you’re saying there, you’re kind of playing with very, very central theme to this whole project that I’ve been about in that you’re talking about the bravery.
Of these scientists to go against the dominant paradigm. And I think what’s implied in that is this understanding that we have, that you have, that I have. And for me, it’s come, it’s come about really through. A lot of interviews, a lot of time I’ve railed against this idea. Could these, could this really be wrong?
This dominant paradigm? And I think you’ve come to the same conclusion. So what do you think about that? What’s going through your mind at that conference when you’re talking about bravery, it sounds like you’ve settled on the idea that that dominant paradigm is flawed. Right? Is that true? I
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:07:14] think if we can just stick in the realm of science and quantum physicists have said from the beginning of the last century, that the reality is we know it doesn’t exist.
It’s all vibrational it’s frequencies. There could be 11 dimensions. There’s multi worlds. Adam’s don’t really exist. They just exist in potentiality, maybe in many worlds of potentiality. So quantum physicists were telling you, yeah, I think that time is linear. There’s no such thing as pre cognition or retro causality.
No quantum physics tells us it is so everything we know about time space, future past what’s real what’s material. Quantum physics just blew it up in our faces. So we don’t have to go into that physics. We can just stick with with them. And I signed said, imagination is what counts. He was a very spiritual person.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:08:19] Right. And maybe you want to tell folks a little bit about how you approach that in your books, in these three books you’re talking about, because really when we talk about quantum physics that immediately the lead throws people off, it’s like you’re reaching for some kind of woo science. What I think you do in the book through your many interviews with, and you maybe want to mention some of these top researchers is taken in all the different ways that this paradigm is really.
I don’t want to say destroyed or falsified, but it is. And, and I would go back and say, the whole thing is really, it was so absurd from the beginning. It almost doesn’t. Do it right to kind of prop it up and try and meticulously tear it apart yet. That’s what we have to do. That’s what you do in the books and piling on this data.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:09:07] Yes. I’m thinking of a Nobel Prize winner in physics for quantum tunneling, Brian Josephson. He’s one of the people that I interviewed in the book. And he talks about consensus science. So he faults science today for only sticking to what’s the party line, just we agree that everything is material. There’s the hard problem of consciousness, but we don’t get into that. We just shut up and calculate because we are in a dogma. Our blinders say the only thing that exists is material. So Josephson says, no, that’s ridiculous. Science leaves out so many phenomena and ignores it, like parapsychology or the memory of water or the systems that exist in all of nature.
So, we don’t have to go very far to find outstanding award-winning scientists who critique the dominant paradigm. But he’s been really punished for it because Josephson said in our interview, in his chapter, that graduate students are advised not to work with him. So his research has been really slow because he doesn’t have the brain power of graduate students to help him. So his hand has been slapped in many ways for critiquing consensus science.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:10:47] Boy of boy, you’ve just kind of led me into kind of one of the central themes I wanted to talk about in our conversation today, because again, you know the Skeptiko drill and I like getting to that level of all three analysis of things. And it’s taken me a long time to get here. I’ve been at this for over 10 years, hundreds and hundreds of interviews, just going down the lines that you’re going down. Go and talk to the best scientists, go and talk to the people that oppose them and try and sort this out.
But I’ll tell you what Gayle, after doing that for years, I really have to wonder if there isn’t something more going on and if that more part isn’t really central to what’s going on
I want to play for you a clip I did from an interview with David Icke, do you know who David Icke is?
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:11:38] Right. The reptile guy.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:11:40] Yeah, good, the reptile guy. Well, he’s more than the reptile guy. He’s also someone who has recently been banned on YouTube and Facebook for advocating free speech, free thought, advocating love your enemy. One of the things that he recommends doing to the people who oppose him, is not respond to them with anger or any of the negative energy they bring, but just to respond to them with love, because that’s what consciousness is all about.
So let me play this clip from David Icke in my interview with him that I think will tee up exactly what we were just talking about.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:12:21] You were one of the first people to really blow the whistle on this fake scientific understanding of consciousness and its insistence that we are biological robots in a meaningless universe, and we should accept our empty lives and just get on with it.
David Icke: [00:12:40] What you’ve just described is the foundation to mass human control, without which mass human control cannot happen. Because if you know that you are, in your true eye, an expression of consciousness, a point of attention within an infinite flow of consciousness, then there’s no way that a handful of psychopaths and idiots, which is basically the combination that runs the world, can impose themselves on your life, in the way that you will acquiesce to whatever they tell you. You won’t do it because you know you are consciousness, you know you are an infinite expression of consciousness and that will never allow itself to be subjugated and intimidated into submission.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:13:33] Okay, so Gayle, what do you think is this biological robot, meaningless universal, materialism that we’re talking about, is it part of a mind-controlled meme? Is it a psyop, is it a psychological operation? or is it just, you know, boys gone wild, science boys just, “Oh my gosh, they’ve fumbled that one again, they can’t seem to understand the double slit experiment. Oh, golly. Gee”? What do you think psyop or just, you know?
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:14:06] Bernardo Kastrup is one of the people in the book who’s really well known now, writing articles for Scientific American about the paradigm shift. He says that the masses of people walk around in a kind of haze, and it’s kind of like a being in a trance state, those aren’t his exact words. So he and others say that, yes, the effect of materialism is to negate ethics or morality or self-responsibility, it in some ways negates free will to say we’re only the result of our chemical processes. So yes, I think the masses of people are kind of stupefied in drinking beer and watching Fox News and whatever ways they self-medicate from their pain.
But your question, is it social engineered, as you call it? Or is it just people being resistant to change? Well, a lot of people think that the wealthy elite have engineered the system in a way that they’re dominant. And we know that society globally has gotten more and more unequal, there’s more and more hunger, there’s more and more autocrats. So some people think it’s deliberately intelligently engineered, and others don’t. I think what matters is that we resist it and don’t accept that we are those kinds of robots who don’t think and question and have responsibility for our actions.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:15:58] Gayle, if we don’t come down the decision as to whether or not it’s a psyop, how would we resist it? What would we be resisting if we don’t understand that this is some kind of engineered plan to make us feel hopeless, afraid, make us feel meaningless, make us feel less powerful? If that is somehow being engineered as part of a social engineering project, then I think we would respond one way. If it’s just a genuine misunderstanding by some guys who interpreted the data the wrong way, I think we would respond in a completely different way. Wouldn’t you agree?
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:16:41] No, because I think that the issue is that we follow real science, not consensus science, but real science that looks at evidence, looks at facts. Says, if you have thousands of double-blind studies that are repeated, as in Dean Radin’s work, then you pay attention to it. So I think sticking to science can solve the problem because it’s hard to prove that it’s socially engineered. I think it’s proven that commercials, media manipulates us to feel inadequate. So if I want to be more feminine, I’ll buy this lipstick and if you want to be more masculine, you’ll buy this sports car.
So definitely media, I think that’s proven, manipulates us to feel insecure and inadequate, so we’ll buy their products. So I think that’s evident. It’s not as evident that there’s a small elite, keeping us dumbed down so they can rule the world.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:17:52] Well, you know, backing up on the small elite rule the world thing, let’s back off of that and just return to the idea of science. Because if you’re saying that science can get us out of this mess, again, I’d kind of have to push back and say, well, really, if we’re to understand it as a psyop, as a psychological mind control, control the people, control the outcome that we want in order to better run our society, I can’t see how we would not, that wouldn’t force us to approach it from a different perspective. Because then we would look at the tools of science in the way that it’s working in the system, as being part of the problem.
I actually think that’s what your work in your books that we’re talking about, your Mysteries Trilogy reveals, and even your story about Josephson definitely reveals that. It’s been systematized, it’s in the institution. It’s when you break out, you lose your funding, you lose your associates, you lose your interns.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:19:08] So you don’t get promoted if you’re a professor.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:19:09] You don’t get promoted, you don’t get hired, you don’t get tenure, you don’t get all the rest of that.
So at what point do you feel comfortable, kind of saying, okay, there is something more to this than just, gosh, the boy’s gone wild, kind of thing?
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:19:24] Who exactly do you think doing the social engineering? Do you believe with Icke that it’s reptilians who are ETs? Who are these illuminati or who are these cabal people that are manipulating us in your opinion?
Alex Tsakiris: [00:19:42] This is a great question. I love when people turn around and ask me questions, and I’d say there’s a good science principle here that needs to come into play. One, you’re the one who talked about reptilians and Illuminati. I never brought up those topics. But the science thing that is at play is that in order to falsify a theory, I’m not required to replace it with another theory. In order to falsify the idea that materialism, biological robot, meaningless universe meme is engineered, all I have to do is show evidence, like we’re talking about here. That one, that kind of stuff does happen, social engineering is in play and we’re on board with that. You talked about advertising and all the rest of that. And then I can lay out the evidence for why we think, why I think it’s in play here. Like we just did with Josephson, or we could talk about the intentional deception that Rupert Sheldrake ran into, or the laugh in your face absurdity of Dean Radin’s multiply replicated experiments across many labs across the world that doesn’t deserve the attention.
So I could pile up, like I have over the years, evidence upon evidence upon evidence, like you have in your Mysteries book. And at some point I would maintain that then the burden of proof shifts over to someone else to say, “Okay, I’ve laid out the case that this is a psyop, the burden of proof is now on you to show that it isn’t.”
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:21:25] I’m thinking of some of my psychiatrists who are in the healing book and therapists discovered that there are entities who are negative. And this ties in with your interest in evil and your book that’s coming out in October about evil. So they didn’t initially believe in this kind of thing, but they could see the evidence in aura photos, like one of the psychiatrists did. So they concluded that there are these evil, higher power or lower power entities out there that want evil for us.
So it’s hard to get your rational left brain/mind around that kind of thing, but they have experienced them, worked with them, talked with them. Robert Alcott psychiatrist says some of them he thinks are fallen angels who can be convinced to fall away from their evil masters and kind of come back to the light again. And you use that expression, the light versus the dark.
So, again, so it’s hard for your left brain, common sense, mind to grasp it, or it is for mine, but it does look like there are evil forces out there.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:22:56] Now you’re coming into my wheelhouse, Why Evil Matters, I appreciate you mentioning that.
But I’m going to return us to this idea of the psyop question because we don’t know if it’s true or not, but is biologic robot, meaningless universe, materialism, is it a psyop? I think that is such a central question.
And, you know, David Icke, the reptilian guy, as you called him, in my opinion, the guy is one of the bravest thinkers of our time and that’s why he was banned, of course, because he’s brave and he just says stuff. And then people go, “You can’t say that, you’re not allowed to say that, we’ve got to take you off of YouTube.” But what he said so succinctly, I feel like I was inadequate in spending all those years banging against all of these skeptics and trying to challenge him and all that. Because if it is engineered in some way, then it’s really a different game.
So you know where I’m going with this Gayle, because you are so nice and open. And I do want to make sure that we don’t go too far afield without returning people to these books, because we haven’t even talked about them. And you’re such a gracious guest. You don’t try and push us back to the books. So I’m the one who’s going to tell folks. You do have to check out these books because all the people that Gayle is mentioning, Dr. Kimball has interviewed and put those interviews in the book. So Dean Radin, Bernardo Kastrup, let’s keep going. Is Josephson in there?
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:24:36] Yes.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:24:37] Josephson. What are some of the other big name, jump off the page, kind of people that you have in these books that people are going to find, and that they can check out?
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:24:48] Famous ones, I would say, Larry Dossey.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:24:53] Larry Dossey is really one of the leaders in healing. He’s a doctor, an MD in Texas who has gone against the system for the longest time and has compiled an incredible amount of very, very compelling evidence. He’s not somebody you want to mess with because he knows his stuff. Who else?
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:25:15] You know who I think is one of the most interesting, I don’t know how well known he is. He’s a sociology professor in New York and that’s William Bengston. Have you had him on?
Alex Tsakiris: [00:25:27] Bengston Healing, phenomenal. Unbelievable. Again, we have had him on and the experiment that he did, if anyone doesn’t know about it. He’s a professor, so he ran into this hands-on healing thing that he kind of stumbled into. You can read it from his book, or you can listen to the Skeptiko interview. And it’s amazing what he personally experienced and documented and did with a lab at New York University. No joke kind of stuff, but an incredible healing story, yes.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:26:03] You know, what’s interesting about Bengston is he found that, for people who don’t know his work, he has the healers who are skeptics. He only uses skeptics. He doesn’t want any believers. He doesn’t want anybody who thinks they’re a healer. He uses students and other people who are skeptics. And they put hands around the mice cage. The mice are injected with breast cancer cells and ordinarily they would die in about 27 days.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:26:34] Full stop right there. I’m not sure how any of us feel about that. But we do that, and we did that in this case, but, you know, injecting animals who have consciousness with cancer, so we can predictably see that they die, so we can… I have mixed feelings about that. I understand both sides of it, but I don’t want to just blow past that because then we make it sound like we’re totally sure that that’s a good thing to do and I’m not.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:27:04] Well, I tell you, I kill rats in my house. So, I have been known to be an animal killer.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:27:11] I appreciate you saying that too, because there’s a realness to that in terms of how we operate in this world. So I’m not coming down one way or another. I just always… you get where I’m coming from too. I’m not sure how to play that.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:27:26] Okay. So Bengston, what he did is he found that the rats who were healed lived their normal two years cycle. And what he’s doing now is he’s duplicating the frequency in the room where healers, in his method, are working on the mice and he thinks that can be a cure for cancer. So you could scan, so to speak, the frequencies and send it around the world. You wouldn’t have to have a human, healer present.
And what’s interesting to me, I was really interested in this because he needs to replicate it in other labs, and no one will do it. So I said, “Okay, I’m going to try.” So I talked to people at California State University, Chico, in the biology, and I said, “Will you do this, he’s cured cancer. This will be very exciting to see if we could replicate it here.” “No.” So the last I heard he was trying to find a lab in Japan. But that’s another example of the materialist paradigm, a cure for cancer, and they don’t want to explore it?
Alex Tsakiris: [00:28:33] Very telling. That’s a great little inside story. I love that.
Who else? Who else should we mention that, that people will be excited to hear about in the books?
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:28:47] You know who’s really interesting to me as Susan Blackmore because she’s a skeptic. And I tried very hard to get skeptical voices as part of the books, because I wanted to hear what their criticisms were and see how we could respond to them and that kind of thing. And all the skeptics that I approached said no, but Susan Blackmore.
So she’s interesting to me because she has the courage of her convictions and she’s well known for writing about consciousness and had her own experiences with out-of-body travel while smoking hash and whatever, when she was an undergrad.
But her point of view is that everything can be explained by our brain functions, that certain parts of our brains are triggered in such and such a way. So she was interesting to me because I felt she was very sincere and spoke up for what she believed in.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:29:47] I’m glad you brought her up because she came up as part of an interview that I did. Just the last one that was published. It may not be the last one that comes out in the sequence that I gradually get these things out. And she’s going to be a perfect segue into talking about this next topic that I want to talk about. I don’t think she’s sincere at all. I think she’s a player in some sense, an agent in some sense. And I’ll tell you why.
I had an interview with her, a direct interview with her, and I was able to hold her feet to the fire on near-death experience science, because she was making a bunch of claims that were just not true. And I got her to admit that… anyone could go back and listen to the interview, but she says, “Alex, I haven’t stayed on top of the research and near-death experience.”
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:30:35] Yeah, she told me that too.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:30:36] The next month she went out and gave a presentation on near-death experience science, and she maintained her position that it’s all brain based. It’s similar to this very distorted, strange position that this Buddhist atheism vein has arisen. Whenever you hear someone say Buddhism and atheists are somehow compatible, that’s like a tip off of some meme that just doesn’t fit, because we all know that the Buddha was into karma, the Buddha was into reincarnation. Not into it, I guess I shouldn’t say, it was fundamental to the belief system that they lived in. It was fundamental to everything they believed.
So to suggest that that is somehow compatible with this materialistic biological robot, meaningless universe meme, is a complete distortion. And I would suggest because Dr. Blackmore, she is a doctor, right?
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:31:41] Yes.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:31:42] The fact that she has been told this repeatedly and yet she continues to not address it and just continue her party line, like she did for you. And she’s very charming and she’s very affable, and she comes across and she has the cool hair and all the rest. It is a play, it’s an act. It’s just like it was with me. I really thought after my interview with her, I thought, “Wow, how brave for someone to admit, “I’m wrong. You know what? I haven’t stayed up on the research.” Well, that’s what she said, but the next month she has never changed her position. She has never publicly said, as an intellectual who speaks on these topics of consciousness, “I have now reviewed the research on near-death experience and I’ve come to the conclusion that every prominent near-death experience or has come to, and that is that consciousness survives death, survives brain death.” She has never done that.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:32:40] The way she gets around it, like looking at even Alexander’s experiences who, by the way is in the book, is that there’s a little bit of memory still functioning, so the part of the brain that has memory capacity is there. But then even Alexander says, no, his memory parts of his brain, which people don’t even know where that is were completely destroyed. His brain was pus. So there’s no way that the physical brain could remember all those astral experiences he had. Do he really debunks her whole theory, but she debunks his.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:33:21] Well Gayle, it’s almost like we rehearsed this because you’re like feeding me to the next point that I was going to make.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:33:28] That’s because I do psychic work.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:33:30] That’s right, you’re a clairvoyant and that is coming into play. How wonderful. I didn’t make that connection. See, I’m not clairvoyant, I’m not psychic in any way.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:33:41] I think all humans are.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:33:43] Well, we probably are, and that’s what Dean Radin’s experiment shows, whether we like it or not, that our body is it’s psychic.
So here’s the point that we were kind of playing around with in the team email exchange, which I think is absolutely central to this whole thing and is so rarely explored. I love your openness and your ability to hold onto these ideas loosely. So I’m going to push you in some areas here.
I have a deep appreciation for the kind of work that you’re doing here. I also have deep appreciation for environmentalism, which is something that is important to you and it is to me. But also for social justice issues, and that topic has been completely distorted by what goes on today. I think it’s anything but that in the way that it’s playing out in our society. But true social justice issues are super important to me, including the rights of women, the rights of people to express their sexuality in whatever way they want. And certainly the issue of race is like it’s absurd that we even have to talk about race as if there is such a thing as race, right? As if we aren’t all some jumble of genes and races and all this ridiculous stuff.
But here’s the point that I really wanted to get to. We have to understand the psyop and just like when I pushed you on the, is materialism a psyop, you were very open about that, but you couldn’t kind of come down one way or another.
So in the email exchange we had, I pointed out to you how Gloria Steinem, who is this figure, who has now been raised to this exalted level and she’s new in the news now. She’s on Netflix and all of this, and she’s out doing it. She is a lifetime CIA player. She’s an agent from the beginning. And this is super well-documented. But it’s super important that people understand how both can be true. How they can see in Gloria Steinem an advancement of social issues, social agendas that they were in favor of because back in the 50s for my mother, she didn’t have any opportunities. Society had been built up that completely excluded her in so many ways and that needed to change. But the fact that that change agent came in the form of someone who was being directed, manipulated, not even directed and manipulated, who was being employed and was in cahoots with the CIA is something that I think should trouble us a lot more than it seemed to trouble you in the email.
Let me play a couple of clips and then I’ll let you respond to that long rant.
[Clip 00:36:41- 00:37:30]
Alex Tsakiris: [00:37:28] That’s a complete lie, we’ll expose that later. She continued to work for the CIA, was a lifetime player in the CIA. And even as recent as 2012, was working for the CIA and their operation in Syria with a totally fake contrived attempt to oppose Syria in favor of ISIS. Grasp that for a second. She came out with a position, that was directly in line with the CIA’s position, that Syria should be admonished for not honoring women’s rights. This is Syria, the most progressive state in the Middle East at the time, in favor of ISIS who was going into villages and chopping off the hands of women who weren’t wearing their burqa or who were exposing any parts of their body. This is a complete lie. And Gloria Steinem, if we really look at her history, it didn’t start with feminism. Her history with the CIA started back with the student movement. And her bosses, we have memos released from her bosses that say she was the rising star in the CIA. She was an agent that could go in and totally put undercover to bilk these kids into believing what they could.
Let me play one more clip from here, and then I’ll let you respond.
[Clip 00:39:00 – 00:40:29]
Alex Tsakiris: [00:40:30] Okay. And you understand why I’m framing this up. I’m framing it up as if we don’t understand the psyop, if we’re not able to at least consider whether or not there is a psyop. Whether it’s Susan Blackmore or Neil deGrasse Tyson, whether it’s you’re a biological robot in a meaningless universe, so don’t even think about your connection to a higher consciousness. If we can’t identify that psyop, then we don’t know how to respond to it.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:41:02] So if you’re asking me, do I think there’s a psyop, all I can say is I don’t have enough information to know. I can’t tell you, yes, I believe in it, because I don’t know who it is that these mysterious manipulators are. So I can’t say I believe in something that has no face or no name.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:41:26] No, I can’t. I can’t let you off the hook that easy. You were the founding coordinator of the Woman’s Studies Movement at CSU Chico, known here in California is the party school.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:41:46] Formerly.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:41:47] They’re trying to get rid of that reputation. Hey, it isn’t a problem. When I went to Western Illinois University, that was the party school in Illinois. It was a great well-rounded experience. You had the educational experience and you also had the broader part of that experience. But you are well versed in women’s studies.
So you are welcome. I’m inviting you to push back as hard as you can on this, destroy the narrative that I just laid out, destroy the narrative, that Gloria Steinem was a lifetime CIA player. Because the answer you gave me in the email, Gayle, it was so completely inadequate. It was the opposite of everything we should all be about, because what you said was, “I don’t care because she did a lot of good things.” We must never succumb to, “I don’t care about the manipulators. I don’t care how I’m being controlled. I only care about what they give me at the end.” We must never succumb to that. We must always be about the truth.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:42:52] Yeah, I agree. But I also agree that human beings aren’t just angels or devils. So think of Martin Luther King, I think you would agree that he did a lot of good. He fought for noble principles. And he also had a woman in various cities. He was an adulterer, a smoker, drinker, accused of plagiarism with his thesis. So he was a flawed human being, but he did a great deal of good. Let’s say that Gloria Steinem was a total CIA agent, which is people will have different points of view. Some say she was, some say she wasn’t. Some say she went to a few Russian summer camps for youth. So it’s debated
Alex Tsakiris: [00:43:43] No, it’s not, I mean, give me the debate. I don’t see any credible debate on the other side. It’s like saying Susan Blackmore is debatable. I just gave you the evidence, so you can contradict that evidence, then you have to accept the hypothesis. The same way with Gloria Steinem in this case. Bring forth, bring forth the evidence that she wasn’t a lifetime player.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:44:04] Okay. Let’s say that she was, so what, as I said to you in the email, if she does good. And the CIA has certainly been flawed, run drugs, killed, assassinated leaders. It’s been a very mixed institution, but do you want to get rid of the CIA? Don’t we need an intelligence agency to protect our country? Are you saying you only give credence to people who are pure, and you have to be either 100% pure, or we throw the baby out with the bath water?
Alex Tsakiris: [00:44:38] Number one, I appreciate you’re engaging in this, because that really is the kind of dialogue that I wanted to have. And I think you are articulating a lot of views that a lot of people have, and they need to be addressed because they’re important and they’re reasonable and a lot of ways.
So two points I’d like to make in response to that. First is that individuals are flawed. I’m very flawed. I’m reminded of that every day. Anyone who’s married and has kids, you’re reminded of that by your spouse, and you’re reminded of that by your kids. And I certainly fall in that category.
But the other way that I’m reminded of it is by the show. I make mistakes all the time and I have to retract and go back. And even do another interview to kind of make it right.
But I think there’s a difference between those individual personal battles with being congruent with who they are, and the institutional control. And I think we all understand that. And what I’m really trying to get at is the institutional part of this, because that’s troubling to all of us.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:45:52] Name those institutions. Name those institutions.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:45:55] Well, in this case, we’re talking about the CIA, but I think the CIA is just really kind of a holding place for an intelligence control apparatus. I mean, would we leave the NSA out of there? Would you leave some other DIA out of there? The CIA is kind of a catch all that we have. But the idea is that if we have someone who’s being propped up as this person that is all about feminism, Gloria Steinem, and they are somehow being manipulated as part of a larger plan, then I think we have to know about that.
So the first point is the individual frailties or lack of perfectness that we all get to, versus the institutional thing I think is different.
And the second point that you made was the “so what” point. And I think the “so what” point is so important, and I’d address it in two ways.
First is that everything that we think is worthy, worthwhile, important about what we have here as the United States, and the ideals with which it was established, and which we try and move it forward. Your whole efforts in the social sciences at Chico with the Women’s Studies movement was towards this ideal of who we should be, what standard we hold ourselves to. And “so what” is where we hold that standard. We are a democracy. We don’t allow secret organizations to make plans about how we should be governed without that being part of the public discourse. That is exactly the opposite of what we do. And the powers that we give them, we are in control of those powers. That’s how it is supposed to work.
So none of us are comfortable with the idea of Jeffrey Epstein and his buddies sitting around a hot tub on some Island deciding what the public agenda will be. So, “so what” is, do you want this to be a public discourse in a democracy? Or do you want to just say, “Go ahead Jeffrey,” whoever’s the next Jeffrey Epstein, Brownstone, controlling political, extortion of political officials, “Go ahead. You guys just get together and rape little kids and tell us what we should do next”?
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:48:35] Right, of course, no one can excuse that, but I still haven’t been able to hear from you, who exactly is doing the social engineering?
Alex Tsakiris: [00:48:45] In this case I gave example after example, where the CIA was doing social engineering. Right?
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:48:51] Right.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:48:51] So we can just start with there. The CIA hires… Here, let me pull it up on the screen. So here, I’ve pulled up this website, people can read this. It’s really quite good. There’s the URL. It’s titled Black Feminism, the CIA and Gloria Steinem. It shows how she undermined not only feminism, but the Black Empowerment movement, the Black Feminist movement. It’s listed, if people can see it here, facts and facts and facts. Names names of her CIA organizer. Her boss calls her a whizz kid because she’s able to infiltrate student festivals.
So this has nothing to do with feminism, this is before that. Back when she’s a student she’s able to infiltrate these student festivals and she’s a “whizz kid” so what is her next assignment? Feminism, let’s get her on that. And what’s her assignment in 2012? Well go and attack Syria because they’re our target now.
So, you wanted the evidence, here’s the evidence. I’m saying fact after fact after fact. Maybe they’re wrong. Maybe we need a fact checker to tell us where we’re wrong. But if it’s right, if the feminists, the real feminists from the Red Stockings who first outed Gloria Steinem as a CIA agent, if she’s incorrect. But we already know it’s not correct because she spun that back the other way as we saw in the YouTube. So she was outed.
The other thing that’s interesting here, Steinem never came out and said, “I work for the CIA,” until she was outed by the Red Stockings feminists and they went and dug up the docs and got it and proved it and then she said, “Well yeah, I did work for the CIA, but you know what?” She said what she said in the YouTube video, “They’re really a great organization and they were by-parts…” It’s like, are you kidding? At this point in her career they had overthrown everyone government in Central and South America, they had committed incredible crimes against humanity, in terms of torturing people, killing people, overthrowing governments. “Oh no, they were by-parts and I really found them to be great guys.” A lifetime player.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:51:17] But I didn’t think you’d give that much credit to the CIA that they have turned the whole world, that they have access to the zombies, right? It’s got to be more than the CIA. They’re a small player, I would think in the social engineering scheme of things.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:51:31] Right. But you know, let’s not go too far down the David Icke path, because remember, the way I’m tying this all back…
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:51:38] Your whole point is that you have to understand social engineering in order to fight it.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:51:43] That is not my point. My point is we have to be able to identify and understand the means. So my point is, in reference to your excellent books, the Mysteries Trilogies that you’ve written, which are outstanding, and they’re important data points. I want to emphasize that. These books are great data points. They’re reference points for anyone who needs to bolster their opinion that this biological robot, meaningless universe game is just a game and it isn’t supported by the data.
But what I’m suggesting is, until we get to the next level, we haven’t really gotten anywhere. And then next level is to answer the David Icke challenge, which says, well, of course, of course that’s been like that because that would be your first go-to in controlling people. Have them think that they’re nothing. Have them think that their life is meaningless. Have them think that they are just these biological out of control, no free will. Of course you would engineer that into the system.
So you have the data. I’m offering an interpretation of the data. And then I’m saying that until we understand the nature of psyop, we can’t really get past the, “Oh, he’s the reptilian guy.”
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:53:21] you asked about interesting people in the book and who comes to my mind right now is, Gary Schwartz and university of Arizona. Uh, do you know about his soul phone experiments?
Alex Tsakiris: [00:53:34] I have it here. I have an interview coming up that is not going to be a good interview. That’s going to be another one. Why is the soul phone talking to Michael Jackson?
Not sure that’s the guy I’d want to be talking to. And the other thing about the soul phone is God needs our help. Okay. Okay, Gary, I get it. I love Gary Schwartz. I mean, you talk about really, I think his experiment with the soul phone he’s misunderstood it because what it does is it completely puts the nail in the coffin of materialism.
Right? It is another instance of the double slit experiment that now becomes undeniable, but to take it where he’s taken it with a quote unquote soul phone. It’s problematic because I don’t know. I don’t know.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:54:29] Oh, well for people who are listening, who don’t know that the double slit experiment, it’s simply that if, if, like laser beams are observed, it changes how they manifest.
So it’s that the idea is that our focused attention creates impact and that’s what all the PSI. Research shows it’s small, but if there’s any deviance from chance, it shows that box power, and that’s really profound. So there’s thousands of Eric’s experiments that show that our intention creates physical change, the cell phone and the work, the mediums that Gary’s doing and when bridge and just all the in Italy, to me that shows that our view, the materialists, you, that there’s just this plane.
It’s false. And it’s amazing to think that we could communicate with grandma on, on the other side, through this cell phone. And Gary’s also had experiences with angels to his angels named Sophia. And you know, so maybe that’s the old Trish Christian tradition and Jewish tradition of angels are actually true.
They’re not just metaphors or archetypes or something. There are. These, these evolved beings and that that’s really fun to think about.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:55:56] It is fun to think about dope folk scale, where you’re, uh, where people can get these books. Are they out now? And, where else can they learn about them on your website and elsewhere?
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:56:07] Yeah, they could go to www.gaylekimball.info, and there’s a bookstore where the books are listed and they can get knowledge and healing. From book babies, bookshop, and reality, won’t be out until March of 20, 21.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:56:28] Are you intentionally leaving out Amazon or these on Amazon?
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:56:32] They are on Amazon and I’d rather people not use them.
If they can help it.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:56:37] Why?
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:56:38] Because Jeff Bezos has saw much so many billions and his workers complain about the conditions in the working sites.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:56:51] Oh, don’t listen to those people. Don’t listen to those workers. Just Jeff is going to get us to that next level. He’s going to help us get everyone organized. He’s going to get everyone scanned in.
Vaccinated, all that thing. Tough. Jeff is Jeff is our go to guy and I own a bunch of Amazon stock. So please buy from Amazon. If you can.
Not kidding about owning Amazon stock, but I’m being facetious about the evil of just Jeff Bezos. But I do own the stock
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:57:29] it’s done very well. What can we say then? You can use the money for good. See, so there, sometimes things can be gray.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:57:37] Yeah, I didn’t think of that money for good. That’s a heck of an idea.
so Gayle, uh, this has been a project that you’ve put a lot of time into. do you have any other plans for what you’re going to do with this series? Are you going to keep doing it? Are you continuing to interview other leading. You know, scientists and thought leaders.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:58:05] I have a new book out called calm how to thrive in challenging times and parent, excuse me, calm parents and children.
So they’re very specific hands-on techniques how to stay standard and grounded when things are chaotic. So, I wanted the principals of the mysteries book to be applied to how can I use this in my daily life life? And I want listeners to know that they can see the interviews with a lot of my visionary scientists on my YouTube channel so that you can actually see them and hear them.
And also I’m almost finished with a book where I’ve interviewed girl. Gen Z climate activists. So there, there are girls who are fighting to save our world, and they’re amazing. They’re so young and so smart and so brave. So they’re, they’re kind of like the visionary scientist in their, in their courage to take on the establishment.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:59:07] Well, that’s excellent. I just think you’ve done great work here. I’m so glad you contacted me while over a year ago and I’ve, uh, I’ve really been excited to follow along and what you’ve done. And I think these books and the YouTube’s that you’ve put out are, are great. You just can’t, we can’t get enough of these terrific thinkers, so you’re to be congratulated.
And I appreciate you playing along with. My rants and all the rest of them,
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:59:33] I wasn’t playing along. I’m thinking and I’m I’m my brain is, is digesting what you’re saying. So I appreciate your you’re making me think.
Alex Tsakiris: [00:59:43] Okay, Gail. Well, thanks again for joining me on skeptic co and let’s stay in touch.
Dr. Gayle Kimball: [00:59:49] Great.
Thanks again to dr. Gayle Kimball for joining me today on Skeptiko. Please check out her excellent books. I did talk a lot in this one, partly because there’s some stuff here I wanted to get into my new book and part of the thing, as you got to say it, so you can get it transcribed. So I don’t have to write it in the book. I can just include in the transcripts. Anyways, that’s my game now revealed to you.
But I do have one question to tee up. It is the central question.
How are we to understand / deal-with / process a PSYOP that moves things in the direction we want them to go. The women’s movement was a “good thing.” There were valid social injustices that needed to be corrected. Are these kind of social movements, always a mixed bag, always a combination of social engineering and public will.
So I think you get the idea. Let me know your thoughts. Love to hear you over on the Skeptiko forum. Or drop me an email. I have a lot of great shows coming up, stick with me for all of that until next time. Take care. Bye for now.
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