Gary Heseltine, Rendlesham |600|

Gary Heseltine… Rendlesham Forest UFO Incedents… new eye-witness accounts… narrative shattered

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​[00:00:00] Alex Tsakiris: A show about UFO’s and nukes.

[00:00:16] Alex Tsakiris: And who’s talking and who isn’t.

[00:00:20] Gary Heseltine: Steve Longero, this airman who I did the announced cognitive interview with, he’d been inside the nuclear weapons storage area. when he’d seen a UFO shine a beam down into the nuclear bunkers And it did like a grid like search all the way down the hot row of bunkers, when the UFO , turned its beam off and then went out, it headed towards Reynoldsford Forest, . And he could hear people over the radio following it. And as soon as it went in the forest, then people, there was like an order given that we want as many security police into the forest, because we don’t know what we’re dealing with.

Now, one of the incredibly important little piece of information that has huge implications is during the course of my research I spoke to three US Air Force security policemen who said that all of the the main radio channels that the US Air Force security police used

[00:01:17] Gary Heseltine: they were routinely recorded on audio tape. Now that means there is no ambiguity there. There was all the evidence for all the nights. We wouldn’t have to start piecing it together. But nobody talks about that. Colonel Holt certainly never talked about that. Colonel Williams certainly never talked about that.

But three airmen lower ranks have said, yeah, it was routinely recorded. So where did all that information go?

[00:01:46] Alex Tsakiris: . That first clip was from the movie skyline. And I don’t know if they were trying to be campy or not, but when the air force shoots a nuclear missile into the UFO, And the guy says, take cover under the couch. I thought that was a pretty fun way to lead into this whole topic of what information we’re getting and the disinformation misinformation shaping of information . . Which in a lot of ways is the segue into today’s interview because the second clip you heard was from Gary Heseltine, UFO researcher.

Extraordinary expert on the Rendlesham forest UFO incident and former UK cup.

So this is rich, rich, rich, with information, for people who are familiar with this case and highly relevant to just everything, everything, everything that’s going on and everything that’s bigger than just what’s going on right now.

It’s very important research, very important book, and I hope you enjoy the interview.

Welcome to sco, where we explore consciousness, science, and spirituality. Today we welcome Gary Heseltine to sco. Gary has just published what I think is a super important book. The book is titled Non Human, The Rendlesham Forest UFO Incidents. That’s incidents with an S. Gary is, uh, gosh, just a very, very top notch UFO researcher. , long time detective in the police force in the UK and really highly regarded in the UFO community for a long time as one of the leading experts on, of course, the Rendlesham Forest case, which this book is about.

But I, I guess let’s just start with Gary. Welcome. Thanks for being here. You’re

[00:03:33] Gary Heseltine: welcome. Thank you for inviting me.

[00:03:36] Alex Tsakiris: I want to get back to why I think this book is so important. And I really want to make that the focus of this interview that kind of takes it in a slightly different direction because you do have this extensive, extensive background.

Why don’t you start by telling people a little bit about your pre UFO days. Which I guess would be back a long time because you really had an encounter for a long time. But then you were kind of undercover for a while and then you’ve been doing this kind of right out front, you know, Disclosure Project, Washington DC, Press Club, you know, you were one of the people, Linda Moulton Howell, you know, you’ve been on the front lines of this.

But before all that, back to being a cop as we call it here in the United

[00:04:22] Gary Heseltine: States. Okay, um, between 1983 and 1989, I served in the Royal Air Force as a police officer, and for three of my six years, I guarded, uh, two nuclear weapons storage areas, uh, that had tactical nuclear weapons, uh, and therefore I have an affinity with the, uh, US Air Force security police who were involved in the Reynolds and Forrest case, because I basically did exactly the same job.

Uh, in 1989, I left the RAF. to join the British Transport Police, where I went on to have a 24 year career. The last 19 years as a detective constable, not a high rank. I didn’t want high rank. I didn’t like the bureaucracy. I like to be out there. Interviewing was my thing. I became an advanced interviewer of suspects and witnesses.

I was also involved as a specialist interviewer in the London bombings. 2005, the four terrorist bombings, I was involved in investigating three of the, uh, underground scenes, uh, first responding transport police officers that went to the scene. So that was incredibly interesting.

[00:05:32] Alex Tsakiris: , Hey, Gary, let me, , you know, I picked up a little tidbit listening to, uh, one of the interviews that I thought was just fascinating.

So one that. You know, you didn’t want to make the move because you felt you were very good at your job. And I also get the sense that you felt your job was very important. I get the sense that you are kind of a high responsibility person. You take public safety responsible. Protect and serve, I think, is kind of in your blood.

I get the sense. And then And then with this regard, interrogation or interviewing, I thought it was

[00:06:05] Gary Heseltine: fascinating. I prefer, I prefer the term interviewing rather than interrogation. That’s an entirely different thing. And I’m not trained to interrogate. Although you, you did get some solicitors saying it was like an interrogation, uh, when you had people on the ropes as it were, and they were given admissions.

So, so yes, uh, my, my specialist thing. was interviewing. I like the psychology of this. You talk, I talk and trying to figure it out. Uh, so that was really my specialist thing. Uh, I didn’t want to go higher because the higher you went effectively meant that you weren’t a police officer anymore. You became an administrative manager and you were stuck behind the computer and you actually never did or rarely ever did police work again.

Uh, so. The advanced interviewing that I did, uh, was effectively from murder, manslaughter, rape, uh, and so that was what attracted me. I like the psychology of interviewing both suspects and trying to obtain fresh new evidence from witnesses, uh, using psychological techniques to try to recover memories.

Not hypnosis, I might add, but there are techniques out there to try to recover. Memories, which could obviously be very useful, uh, in trying to solve a case. Fantastic,

[00:07:24] Alex Tsakiris: that’s exactly where I wanted to go, because in one of those interviews, you kind of revealed one of those, and it sounds really basic, but I could tell by the way you were talking about it that it was super effective, and you used it in your police work, and now I think you definitely used it in this important book, Non Human.

Tell us about that, and particularly not interrupting people and letting them talk.

[00:07:48] Gary Heseltine: Yeah, uh, and it’s a strange, uh, thing to do at first, uh, because it’s not the natural way of conversation. The natural interaction between humans is I talk, you talk, I talk, you talk. But when you come to trying to, uh, retrieve memories of a profound…

significant incident, what you want to do is not interrupt the train of thought by the witness who is concentrating hard. So, in a long story short, it’s called the Enhanced Cognitive Method and, and basically it’s designed to be used within days, hours after a significant event to try to retrieve as much memory as possible.

Now, You’re right, uh, I, I thought I would try it with a couple of witnesses, uh, in the book, important military, US Air Force military witnesses, and it worked, uh, particularly well on two interviews with a guy called Sergeant Adrian Bustinza. Another, another one called Airman, Steve Longrow, uh, a Airman, Steve Longrow was a three and a half hour transatlantic phone call almost, uh, 42 years after, 40 years after the event.

That is not what it’s supposed to do, but you can incorporate elements of it. And with Adrian Bustinza, that was like, uh, 41 years after the event. And that was a four and a half hour transatlantic phone call. So you can’t hypnotize people. But what you can do is try to set up the interview in, in the best way.

And there is a technique for that. And cutting a long story short is that once you’ve. Developed that rapport stage, made them feel comfortable, you’ve explained the procedure that you’re going to try to do. You then effectively say, look, I’m now going to hand the interview over to you and you just tell me whatever you want to say in whatever order you want to say it and I am not going to interrupt you.

And it’s called the first account. And the first account goes against your basic method of interaction because you want to cut in and say, Uh, you said, you said red. Was it a red car? What was it? You know, you want to naturally do that, but in this first interview with something that’s really profound, the last thing you want to do is interrupt the witness’s train of thought.

So you set them up and then you say, look, I, all I’m going to do is just nod my head. Uh huh. Okay. Uh huh. Uh huh. And that’s called Googling. And that just encourages and it passes the ball back to the interviewee without me interrupting their train of thought. And what you want them to do is, you’ve set it up and said, look, whether you want to look at the wall, look down at your feet, close your eyes, whatever works best for you.

But I want you to concentrate on trying to retrieve memories of what This incident was, and once you’d handed it over, you then did that. And amazingly in those two highly significant interviews, they did that. they captured and they were able to retrieve more information than they’d ever done before.

And, and there is a particular, uh, uh, aspect of the interview that I did with Sergeant Adrian Bustinza, which I think is arguably the most powerful part of the book, where he has been interrogated, uh, in an underground facility, which is believed to be on Aria Fentwaters. He has got either side of him too big, kind of like…

Mafioso kind of figures, but they’re not. They’re Air Force Officers Special Investigation. He’s told to sit down. He’s put in a darkened room. There’s a screen and there’s somebody behind the screen, but he can’t see who they are, but that somebody from the other side of the screen is talking to him. And he has been threatened with his life because he has, uh, inadvertently found himself a witness to something he really shouldn’t have seen.

And they are threatening him with his life and there’s a page of testimony which is so palpable, uh, I, for me, it’s probably the highlight section of the book, and there’s literally one page where it’s just all free text and there’s no interruption and he is talking about that interrogation and the key thing that comes across today.

is the palpable fear, the anxiety, he was being threatened with his life, his father worked for the government, his family were being surveilled in the United States and his mum was worried for her husband’s job. He was told bullets are cheap and he was Just a young man, uh, in his early 20s, a sergeant, and he was thinking I’ve joined the U.

S. Air Force to protect my country and I am now being made to feel like I’m a criminal. I’m being threatened with my life, which really disgusted him. And he, and he came out of that basically saying I was so disgusted at my treatment that I wanted to go air wall, absent without leave, desert, you know, in other words.

Now that’s a really powerful piece of testimony and if you’ve read that I think anybody will go wow because when I read it back, uh, in the proofing stage I do when I proof I, I, I can read it like a narrator or an actor and give it some emphasis and when I read it back I thought Jesus this is really powerful stuff and that just shows you one of the lesser known elements of the Rendlesham Forest.

case where, uh, four or five people that we know of, witnesses, military witnesses, were subjected to a very harsh, uh, interrogation, which I can only think is illegal. Uh, but there you go, that’s part of the Rendlesham story, which not many people talk about, but very powerful testimony. And so in those two interviews, uh, Adrian Bastinza and Steve Longiro, uh, they were able to retrieve lots of new information.

Between them, uh, Two sightings, Steve Longiero, new, and two, uh, well, one entirely new event, uh, for Agin Bastinza, and the clarification of a second landing. Later on in, uh, towards the end of the interview, uh, on another night, which is this controversial one, uh, of a second landing where the base commander of 12, 000 people, that it was being filmed on motion picture footage, which for anybody over a certain age means moving images, video to all intents and purposes, that it was being filmed.

that it was a second craft was on the ground in a field was surrounded by US Air Force security police officers. Very, very controversial because the original military whistleblower was a guy called Larry Warren, young kid, again, 19 years old, first tour, literally only been on the base matter of weeks, and he gets caught up into it.

Now he came out. With this story in late 1982, and people went, wow, you know, but you know, how serious have we got any corroboration? And in effect, there wasn’t corroboration enough. But with this interview, it finally put that to bed because later on in the interview, Adrian Bustinza says, Oh, Larry Warren, he said, yeah, he was in, I don’t know why I picked him, but they were, he was closer to the craft than I was, so you’re confirming.

That Larry Warren was there. Yes, and he was close to the Grafton Unit. Yes, that there was U. S. Air Force security police officers all around you. Yes, that it was being filmed on motion picture footage. Yes, and that Colonel Williams, the base commander of 12, 000 people, was present. Yes. Now, Larry Warren had taken that a slight stage further originally in late 1982 by saying that When he was part of the Cordon, three, uh, what can only be described as entities of some descriptions, some life forms, were, didn’t come from a doorway, effectively slipped off the fabric of the craft, which is described about 30 feet across, shimmering, you couldn’t look at it straight on because it would distort, but like a bubble slipped off the fabric of the craft, and the single bubble then divided into three bubbles and within each of the bubbles was affected with the upper torso of what can only be described as a child like small entity.

And there was some kind of silent face off with the base commander of 12, 000 personnel. So this is a big deal. It was being filmed and you’ve now got Adrian Mustinda saying, yeah, that happened. But the thing that surprised me, he said, but that happened on a different night. I said, what do you mean? And he said, it happened on a different night, because the existing story is that this had happened on what was called the third night, popularly known as the Holt Night.

I said, not the Holt Night. He said, no, I was involved in another incident. Now, it might not be the actual next night. But it probably is, given all the other circumstances. But the key thing, what he was saying, is that Adrian Bastinza, Sergeant Adrian Bastinza, was being involved in another incident on another night.

So a second night of involvement for him. This we didn’t know about. So again, absolutely… We call it fresh snow when you retrieve new information that’s been locked up, locked away in your memory, and then suddenly they’re able to recall it. And that was a significant clarification, but this puts it to bed.

And effectively what was supposed to happen was that the base commander was in a silent A non verbal communication with one or three of these entities. Basically, there may be less than 10 feet apart. These three entities are floating off the ground, and there’s the base commander, so there’s, uh, plus this security cordon around it, all being filmed.

Now, what an incredible thing if that happened. Well, Sergeant Adrian Bustins is saying that happened because I was there, but he also said that Colonel Holt was there. or Lieutenant Colonel Hall, the deputy base commander, who we’ve become well aware of, uh, for many years in documentaries. But effectively, he has denied that there was ever a second landing since he retired.

Now, if you’ve read the book, you’ll realize that He actually made a significant admission to my eyes as a former detective that would stand up in a court of law in 1985, six years before he retired, and then became this public personality that you now see in all the documentaries. So I can talk about that if you want, but that was a brilliant admission in 1985 that confirmed that that incident in the field happened, uh, way before he retired.

So I think that’s highly relevant. How’s that?

[00:19:08] Alex Tsakiris: You know, before we started like rolling, I told you that I was scrambling with where to go. And, uh, you just kind of laid out probably 10 or 15 topics that I want to talk on. We could talk for an hour. I mean, one. Right off the bat, I think the, uh, the method that you used here is particularly important and I’m really glad that you explained it so people can, because everyone’s trying to figure out who’s real, who’s legit, and who’s telling a good story, the right story, who’s really, who’s really delivering the goods.

I think you give us some reasons to suspect that you really are delivering the goods. Staying up all night over there in the UK to do four hour phone calls transatlantic.

[00:19:54] Gary Heseltine: I was shattered in the morning because one of the things that people don’t realize is that if you’re an interviewer and you’ll know about this, in your capacity as a podcaster, radio show, is that when you’re thinking of the questions to ask your interviewee, that is mentally tiring.

And plus you’ve got all your equipment to work, you’ve got timings to consider, it’s difficult. So imagine being, uh, you’ve been up all day and then you finally get to speak to the guy you’ve been after for, several years, you finally get to speak to me, comes in from work, and I immediately say, you know, you know, You’ve just come in from work.

Do you want me to call back? Do you want to have a get something to eat? And he basically said, no, let’s do it now. Little did I suspect that it would then go on for four and a half hours. So with the transatlantic time difference, this kind of finished at like six in the morning for me, and I have mentally been going for four and a half hours, and I’m exhausted, uh, but I would say that it was the most important UFO interview I have ever done and arguably the most important thing I’ve ever done in my life in terms of non family things because of the significance of his role as a witness and And Adrian Mastinzo has got the longest chapter in the book, because he had made a number of pronouncements over the years, but he was heavily affected by his interrogation, he was a religious person, family man, and he suffered nightmares, post trauma, but he also Uh, and it’s not, I don’t really touch on it too much is that he suffered a medical injury, uh, as a result of another incident that he was involved in with, with another witness called John Burroughs.

. This is, this is during the Rendleton Forest events. Well, over those few days, John Burroughs was with Jim Penniston on what was called the first night landing of a small triangular craft on the night of Christmas night into Boxing Day.

That’s classed as the first night. Nobody really disputes that that’s the first night, uh, but a couple of nights later on what was called the third night, the Holt night, where he does… the memorandum about his involvement and also produces an audio tape, which we can talk about because that’s interesting.

But, uh, basically John Burroughs had come back when he’d heard the other incidents. He lived off base in Ipswich, a town about 11 miles away, and he’d managed to get a lift. back to the base because he got wind, I don’t know how, but he got wind that another UFO incident was developing at night. So he gets back there and eventually after, uh, Lieutenant Colonel Holt’s small team comes back after being out on patrol for four and a half hours and witnessing multiple UFOs, they come back to what’s called the staging area.

Sturgeonary is a significant place because it was where all the vehicles were. They couldn’t go any further into the forest, so it’s where all the vehicles stopped and it became like a parking area, and lots of personnel were kept there in case they were needed. Now John Burroughs, uh, waited for Holt’s team to come back, and when he did, and I’m, and this is a key thing, Sergeant Adrian Bustinza.

was a part of Holt’s team. So this is a significant involvement, the guy who was later interrogated and saw this other incident. So they come back to the staging area and John Burroughs is there and he says can I go back out there and Colonel Holt is reluctant to let him go but he says okay and For some reason, he asks Sergeant Adrian Bustinza to go out with him back into the forest, and he’s only literally just come back after being out for four and a half hours.

But he says, I’ll come out for you for a short time. And off they go, and no sooner, a few, literally, I think no more than five, ten minutes later, and they’re not quite in the field, they’re, I think, close to the field. The exact position has never been truly identified, but it’s near to the field, uh, and there’s woods all the way near to it, the forest.

Adrian Mestinza says that he feels a force on the back of his legs as if somebody’s kicked his back of his legs and and which causes him to fall forward onto his knees and put his hands out as as that happens he sprawled out a light Alex Tsakiris. of, uh, maybe 20 meters, uh, uh, uh, uh, John is about 20 meters in front of him.

A light suddenly engulfs John Burroughs. Absolutely intense bright white light engulfs him and as it does so, part of the beam of the light strikes Adrian Bustinzer across his hands and part of his groin and Amazingly, he then developed a rash, which he still has to this day, in the position that happened, and his groin as well.

It’s non life threatening, but it’s been there, and he attributes it directly to that event. But the event that he saw looking forward is John Burroughs, who’s about 6’6 he’s a giant, uh, is, that he’s engulfed in this bright light. It’s so intense, all he can see is like a small figure. Entity, whatever you want to call it, on the left side of John, John in the middle and another figure smaller on the right side and then the light goes out.

They go back and this is an interesting thing as well because we talk about missing time and abductions and whatever. Now when they left From Adrian Bastinza and John Burroughs point of view, they were only gone for about 10 minutes. But when they got back to the staging area, Colonel Holt, or Lieutenant Colonel Holt at the time, he was angry with them.

Where have you been? What have you been doing? And he kind of said that they’d been gone for 40 minutes. But according to John and… Adrian, about 10 minutes. So you have this time, missing time experience and, and of course with what we, what we now know the subject, I think it’s entirely feasible that during that, uh, missing 20 30 minute period that something happened to John and perhaps Adrian Bustinzo.

Adrian Bustinzo, uh, has never undergone any hypnosis. Uh, John Burroughs has and he… Uh, recall stuff under hypnosis. I’m not a big fan of the hypnosis because yes, you can get some interesting anecdotal information, but evidentially it’s not really worth the paper it’s written on because you can’t really, you’ve altered the mind status, you, you, it’s not under free recall.

So I would say that as a question mark about what comes out, I’m not saying it doesn’t reveal information. It probably does, but in terms of evidence, I wouldn’t hold it that strong.

[00:26:41] Alex Tsakiris: Gary, it’s interesting that you said a couple times This puts it to bed. And I know completely what you mean, but I think you’re speaking now from someone who has been, I guess, just intensely involved in this case and in this field for a long time, and you’ve lived through these controversies, and I’d like to play you a video clip, and then I’d I want you to recount how the, how the whole, I don’t want to say narrative, how this, how this case has evolved in terms of public opinion, in terms of, uh, dissenters, skeptical people who are, some of them seem to be genuinely skeptical.

Some of them seem to be, have an agenda driven skeptical nature to it. Let me play this video, maybe a couple of videos, and then you can tell me, tell me what it’s

[00:27:33] Gary Heseltine: about.

My name is Gary Esselstyn, and I am a recently retired police detective in England, having served almost 24 years with the British Transport Police. For the majority of that time, for 20 years, I was a detective. I was dealing at the sharp end of evidence, evidential matters. I’ve been being involved in murder, manslaughter, rape, etc, etc.

I come to this subject on an evidential basis. And I think that is very necessary in this field. I am here principally to speak on behalf of police officers worldwide who have witnessed UFOs. But I would also like to say that I’m also one of the principal investigators of the Rendlesham Forest incident that my colleague Peter has alluded to, along with Linda Moulton Howe, I would consider as the three principal investigators of this incident.

We’re all doing very good work on it. For the last five years, I have worked with Colonel Charles Holt, the man who wrote. The Holt Memorandum, the Deputy Base Commander of what was absolutely a nuclear facility. And let me back that up by saying that for three years of my six years in the Royal Air Force between 1983 and 1989 I served on two nuclear bases doing exactly the same job as what those U.

S. Air Force policemen did. And the base at Bentwater is identical to the base at Arifel Abruch in West Germany where I worked. Let’s cut the crap. This is a nuclear issue.

Okay.

[00:29:01] Alex Tsakiris: I thought you’d get a kick. I, I dug that up and I said, I got to play it for this guy to look back. Let’s go back in the time capsule. Tell us what we just watched and tell us a little bit about what’s going on at that time versus what’s going on in this time. Cause again, , I want to frame up this book non human and what this book means in a post disclosure world that we live in.

Because the clip we showed was definitely pre disclosure, and it has a different tone to it, a different ring to it. There’s so many things I know you could speak to on that, just jump in

[00:29:37] Gary Heseltine: wherever you want. Well, the video clip that you showed was, uh, myself giving testimony at what was called the Citizens Hearings, uh, in Washington, D.

C., uh, in late April, early May of 2013. Uh, In effect, it was a mock congressional hearing, uh, and we gave testimony to approximately 40 witnesses, stroke researchers, uh, who gave testimony for five days, over five days, Monday to Friday, um, at the National Press Club, which is very close to the White House, a very prestigious place, and, uh, we gave testimony before one former senator and five former congressmen and women, and, uh, we So a panel of six, uh, people who I think who had collectively 80 plus years of public office amongst them.

So very, uh, esteemed. People. And in fact, the Senator Mike Gravel, I think, at one time being a presidential candidate. So that, you know, that’s how kind of, uh, important he was. And, uh, I was given testimony, uh, principally about my work with police officers. What we haven’t touched upon for your listeners is that how UFO field was whilst I was still a serving…

detective, uh, in 2000, uh, January, 2002, I went public with the launch of a police database and an unofficial national police database for UK police officers called PRUFOZ, Police Reported UFOs. And as a result, that attracted a fair bit of media attention, TV, radio, newspapers, et cetera. And that’s how it became known.

And one thing that I didn’t anticipate, the spinoff from that, and I’ll come back. to where we’re going with this, is that, uh, UFO groups in the UK started to say, well, you… Give us lectures about your police cases because I would, by creating the database, I was basically encouraging serving and retired UK police officers to report sightings to me and I would create a database.

Plus I would also collect any historical sightings that were found in books, magazines, etc. And police officers did start to come forward. So I began to ask to do lectures and and as a result of that over time I was then becoming more well known media wise and I was invited by Steve Bassett to be one of the witnesses at the citizens hearing.

Just before that, three months before, Completely out of the blue, and I was flabbergasted. I’m not very often lost for words, but I was when, again, at the National Press Club, he’d invited me for what was an XO conference, uh, in 2010, and then suddenly on the, uh, uh, On the Saturday night at the, like the evening gala event, uh, he presented me with the disclosure award, the p i g disclosure, effectively within U F O terms, the World Disclosure Award.

Some very eminent people have won that. Uh, and I got that and it was on the strength of that, that I then was elevated and asked to do a lot of international lectures, and I’ve now lectured in 2122 countries, I think at the moment. And so that’s how I, my involvement. was significant. And I think it’s because of that, that then when the citizens hearings came about, Steve Bassett asked me to talk initially, uh, just about police officers.

I shouldn’t have really talked about Rendlesham at all, but what I would have to say is that, and this is coming back to the framing of your question, uh, in 2013, uh, I was still in a close, uh, working collaborative relationship. with former retired, uh, base commander, deputy base commander Charles Holt, Colonel Charles Holt.

I’d met him in, uh, December of 2007 for, uh, when we both appeared in an episode of UFO Hunters with Bill Burns. It was a TV series that ran on, I think, the History Channel for three seasons. And anyway, it was in the first series. And that’s how I’d met him and we, we got on well. And I, at the end of that shoot, I basically said, well, you know, Will you collaborate with me?

I kind of do amateur screenplay writing for films. I’ve always loved the cinema, and I’ve always considered that at some point in the future, there will be a major Hollywood film about Randerson Forrest. The problem is that the, uh, from Hollywood’s point of view, and I’ve talked to producers, the problem is there isn’t a Harrison Ford, uh, heroic figure for them, and we’re talking multiple nights, hundreds of people basically, a lot of moving parts, uh, and, and Hollywood tends to like a hero.

Uh, there are some heroes, but nobody who encompasses the whole event. Um, so anyway, we’d struck up this rapport, so this was in a good period, so I had a seven year collaboration period between late 2007 through to about late 2014. Uh, we can talk about why I ended that relationship later on. Talk about, talk about

[00:34:58] Alex Tsakiris: why you ended it.

I think that brings it full circle before we go on too much because it’s important and it fits into, I think back to this question of who do we trust? What is disclosure? You know, even the people who are trying to be good guys, trying to be, I think he’s. Trying to be the Harrison Ford character, and then he’s certainly stepping forward and saying I am the Harrison Ford character.

But then we find out in your book that he’s not exactly the Harrison Ford character and he’s playing a role that he has to play, which a lot of these guys in it are doing. What’s so fascinating about the book is you talk to people who we look at and we go, holy shit, this guy isn’t playing the game.

This guy is just really telling us the truth. And that contrast is what really makes the book so phenomenal. Well,

[00:35:42] Gary Heseltine: I, I, I think the primary focus of the book was to tell the truth in a way to the people that it’s never been told before. To analyze everything that had gone on in the last 42 years since the incident, present it in an evaluated way, so you examine it, you look at the transcripts of old interviews, you take away the key parts, and you think, you know, you know, what’s he trying to say, uh, and I, I applied myself as a former detective to kind of do like a cold case review, and, and A lot of people, a lot of researchers who I’ve sent it to have said it’s like no other UFO book because it’s analytical in terms of dissecting interviews, the key parts, etc, and drawing, uh, obvious conclusions.

You can make reasoned conclusions. And so that’s what I did. And I took all the sentiment. out, because I know a lot of these people, had had kind of relationships, working relationships, I knew them well, uh, not so well in some cases, but I took all the personality out of it and really wanted to concentrate on the facts.

And in fact I start off with a, uh, a great quote at the beginning by Trey Gowdy, a former, uh, Republican, uh, Congressman who basically said the facts are the facts, you know, I’m not a Democrat, not a Republican, the facts are the And that was my mantra basically to to take away personality and just examine the facts, evaluate the key parts and then put them forward as a reasoned conclusion, which is what I’ve done throughout the book.

And a lot of people seen, uh, I’ve had incredible reviews by researchers across the board saying it’s not like anything else. And, and, and the forward of the book is written by Don Smith, which is. Really good for me, not only is he a friend because he’s part of ISA, the International Coalition for Extraterrestrial Research, of which I’m the vice president, and he’s the North American, uh, director, uh, Don, uh, is eminent and arguably, uh, in most people’s eyes, the leading expert on Roswell.

Well, most people will say that Roswell is like… Arguably the most important UFO case in history because of its historical significance and allegedly what was recovered as a craft and bodies. I would, a lot of people would say that Rendlesham Forest, because of its complex nature, multiple nights of activity, and we can talk about the conclusions of the book later on, where I break it down, the timeline that I was able to break down, the number of incidents that people were involved in.

But when you look at the Rensselaer Forest incident, it’s many people regard it as the second most famous case. No, no, no, no. It’s

[00:38:33] Alex Tsakiris: clearly after this book, after non human, it’s clearly the most important UFO case because we don’t have any information. Take your book and compare it with everything we have on Roswell, and we’re already 10 steps ahead in terms of multiple trusted eyewitnesses, multiple incidents, multiple, uh, sources for those, uh, and new sources still emerging that have a different spin on it too.

So let me pull you back to, to Hulto before we get too far, too far down the road.

[00:39:04] Gary Heseltine: Okay. Right. Okay. So. The primary reason for, uh, doing the book was to try to change the existing narrative of the case. I found, um, during an evolving period of my time with Colonel Holtz, so literally from when I became publicly involved in research, which was December 2007 when I first met Holtz, then I had that seven year collaboration period and I’ve been doing research, I then have done a deep dive back into the case to write the book.

The book took three years to write, five years of reinvestigation, and I found lots of old historical interviews that I was not even aware of. I found an incredible admission that I was not aware of, and I’m pretty certain that 80 percent of the people who read this book will not have a clue about the level of content that’s in it, because I’m revealing stuff that’s never been presented uniformly to the public in one go.

There are lots of books on the UFOs, there are lots of books on Reynolds from Forrest, but none have really, I think, delved into it in a, uh, in a, uh, a logical analytical way. They’ve had their own bias towards it. Some are written by witnesses themselves, blah, blah, blah. But I kind of use my detective skills to try to do an update.

The best book in many ways prior, uh, to non human. Uh, is the book by Georgina Bruni that came out in two, the year 2000. You can’t tell the people. Uh, she wasn’t a u f O person at all. Uh, she was a, kinda like a, a celebrity, uh, writer, but she got involved and she did a, I think, an excellent job in tracking down witnesses.

And it’s a pretty good. Guide of where we were in 2000, summarizing the whole case. But here we are now, 42 years after the event, and what have we got? We’ve got a plethora of books, but none that really look at it in a whole, in an overall, uh, review. And so that’s what I tried to do. And one of the reasons why I tried to do it, uh, and you’ll notice, well, you might not be aware of this, but there was no pre publicity for my book on Amazon whatsoever.

Now that’s not a coincidence. I deliberately And the reason why I deliberately did that is because I know for a fact that some people did not want this book to come out. Yeah. And had I have flagged it up and said, Oh, it’s going to be out on the 10th of August. I may well have been challenged legally or whatever, or attempts at challenging me.

I didn’t want that. And I thought I want to get the truth out there. So when it was done. When it was, uh, approved, it went out, and it went out under the radar, and then I began the publicity. By then, I’d already given copies to researchers, got their feedback, and I was very humbled by the feedback, especially Don Smitter wrote the forward.

given his prominence with Roswell and the link between the two cases in historical significance, uh, kind of ratings, uh, and I was amazed that the response that I got from researchers, uh, I’m delighted obviously, but it went out under the radar deliberately and then I started the publicity. Now I’m at the stage now where I am looking for a mainstream big publisher because on Amazon.

Well, I can go around all the world on Amazon, but it, you don’t have the same distribution. You don’t have the same, uh, promotion, uh, facilities, a big publishing house. Now, I think I can go back with all the reviews that I’ve got from researchers and say, look, you could have a bestseller here. And it’s not because I want to be this major bestseller, although people will say, of course he does.

But no, my only primary thing was I wanted the feedback from my Peer group, my research of peer group, and that has been uniformly brilliant, so I’m humbled by their kind words. But I think that I am limited in how I can expose this book to what should be hundreds of thousands. Only people who are really interested in the subject will know the Rendlesham case and only those at the very, you know, that’s a small percentage, although millions of people are interested in the subject, very few actually get books and of those that do, you need to have a real name behind you.

UK and I’ve done lots of international lectures. I gave a testimony at the 2022. I gave testimony, uh, before the Brazilian Senate. I read that. If you’ve seen that, and that’s a really powerful speech that was, didn’t come out quite the way I wanted it, uh, because I didn’t intend to be as passionate as I was, but I was so passionate and I saw some of the faces of the politicians and I thought, no, I’m going to hit you with the evidence here.

And so I really kind of went after them and gave them the truth about the subject. In terms of the book, the book wants to try to change the narrative because for the last 25 years. Basically four people have controlled every documentary that’s ever been made. Lieutenant Colonel Holt, Sergeant Jim Penison and Airman John Burroughs.

And one other person, Nick Pope, who was the former M. O. Diga. Now, you’ll see in the book that there’s a chapter on Nick Pope, but he has a very, very, uh, important role or link to the case that I think is detrimental to the case. And all of these people I’ve met… Multiple occasions and the narrative as it stands now is wrong because they can, they attack.

Other witnesses that come forward and that should not be the reaction of people who are genuinely involved in an event that is pretty unique. So what Colonel Holt should have done.

[00:45:24] Alex Tsakiris: Well, so, so before you back up a little bit on Holt. Okay. Because he’s super important, as you say, in this story. And if we’re going to try it.

If we’re going to try and fit him in, uh, because you said like, you know, every, not everyone, but so many people have heard the recording, which was the big juicy thing 10 years ago. Oh my God, the Colonel’s out in the, in the forest and he’s actually doing a recording. That’s what sticks in everyone’s head.

Yeah. The memorandum. The memorandum. And, but what you reveal here is in this book, which I had never heard of.

[00:46:01] Gary Heseltine: He knows more.

[00:46:03] Alex Tsakiris: He knows more. He did. He was playing some kind of , misinformation, disinformation game, not only with the general public, but even with you and no doubt with other researchers.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What did you think back, back to our clip? What did you think back then? And what did you think? How did that evolve? And where does that put you in this spectrum of who do you trust, misinformation, disinformation, no information? Because you know, you have a military background. You understand that there are secrets that have to be maintained, but I think we both understand that there’s a difference when it becomes.

Misinformation and disinformation and intentional deceit and intentional manipulation, not even getting into some of the more, even more immoral stuff. So take us down that path for a minute with Holt as being, you know, the figure for, for driving us through that narrative.

[00:46:55] Gary Heseltine: Well, when I, when I first met, uh, Colonel Holt, uh, on the very first night that we met.

in December of 2007 for this film shoot. We, we kind of both found ourselves in the reception area of the hotel where we were staying for the filming, and the film crew were out. It was probably after six at night, and he didn’t recognize me because he’d never met me, but I obviously recognized him. So I approached him and said, look, you know, uh, I’m a former RAF police officer.

I’ve, I’ve been involved, invited to take part. Anyway. We got on like a house on fire and we sat down and we had a, we weren’t required for filming that night, so we sat in the pub that was part of the hotel and we had a meal and we chatted famously and, and, and at the end of that I’d said, will you work on a, a screenplay that I’m writing?

And he said, yes. So that’s how the collaboration began. But he said on that first night, you told me there were more nuclear weapons that RF Ben was than anywhere else in Europe. You told me that. And then since denied it, Now, I can’t prove it, but that’s what he said. I actually did write it down in a book, uh, after that, uh, which I can produce, where I wrote some things about, because I was excited to meet him, he’s a Colonel, you know, he’s a big, famous guy, so I was kind of not in awe of him, but I was, I was certainly very pleased to meet him and whatever.

We got on really well, And anyway, that collaboration period, and it had begun on the basis of collaboration for a film script. I was going to write it, I was going to send him it as updates, and he would give me advice on trying to make it more authentic and whatever. And he loved the scripts as they went along.

Now I’d said at the start, you know, tell me everything, and he said he would. Now, I had no reason at that time in 2007 and early 2008, uh, to think that he was lying. All right? However, things progressed. So one of the things that stands out is that af I said, From the start, I’m going to go away for four months, research everything that I could.

This is late 2007. And I’m going to come back to early 2008 and I’m going to start asking you questions. And he went, yeah, fine. So I went back, did that. Four months later, I start asking him questions. And I said to him, uh, who’s, who’s the fifth person in your group? And he went, Oh, I’m not quite sure of the name.

And, and he could reel off, uh, Munro Neville, Sergeant Ball, Lieutenant England himself, who was the fifth person, I can’t remember. And I said to him. It’s Sergeant Adrian Bastinda, he’s actually on the audio tape. Oh yes, yes, you know, it was kind of like that and I thought, well that’s a bit odd. Uh, anyway, that was an inkling perhaps.

Down the line, it was clear Colonel Holt, uh, was definitely involved. He did write the Holt Memorandum. He was a witness. to what was regard to the third night events, and he was aware of lots of things on and around. Now, as the relationship went on, it was clear to me, or it began to become clear to me, that he probably knew a lot more, and he was being a bit inconsistent, and he particularly had a downer on, um, Larry Warren, the original military whistleblower.

Now, and which I could never quite understand. Other than being the fact that it was as a result of him that the memorandum came out and he then became this public figure. And he had tried, he told me, he’s quite open about it, he tried to get it pulled when he knew it was coming out because he knew his life would never be the same.

And I actually said, On the first night I met him, I said, when you die, I said, you’ve had a fantastic military career, but you will not be remembered for your military career. You’ll be remembered for being the deputy base commander at Renfrew Forest. And he, he looked at me and I said, yeah, but that’s the reality is it’s such a famous case.

That’s what you’ll be remembered for. So anyway. It comes to 2014, and by then, I was becoming increasingly concerned about where he was going with some of the things that he was saying about people. Can

[00:51:05] Alex Tsakiris: I interject a question here, because I’m really curious. Because you have that, you have that military background, and I’m sure you, in police work in the military, you rubbed shoulders with the intelligence folks enough to know how that thing is played.

Where do you suspect he is at? In 2008, In terms of them saying, Hey pal, this is the narrative. This is the line don’t cross over it. And for God’s sake, don’t wind up in a pub, have a couple too many drinks and tell people about, and then, so where is the line? And then how does that work? How much are they manipulating, pushing?

What do you think? You know, you’ve been there, you know how it works. Well, I,

[00:51:50] Gary Heseltine: what I, what I, what I consider is that Colonel Holt knows a lot more. Uh, I. Believe that he was involved in at least one more nito activity, which is the admission that he made to research a muon researcher in 1985. Uh, which we can talk about in a bit.

’cause it’s, it’s super important, uh, because it was made before he retired. So there’s, and it was written and, and his reply to a, to a question over the phone was written down verbatim. Which, which is key, you know, it’s unambiguous. It’s a, it’s a verbatim quote. Uh, But the key thing is that, uh, uh, Colonel Haught is an interesting figure because a lot of people have said, Well, he never got interrogated, and why not?

Well, I guess that’s maybe because of his high rank, but he would say to people that he’d never been quizzed particularly about, uh, after the incident, which don’t kind of make sense to most people. Uh, and I kind of figured out whilst writing the book what the answer is. And the answer is down to Gordon Williams, the base commander at the time.

Now, Base Commander Gordon Williams, the guy who had this supposed meeting with the entities in the field, which is key to the whole story, uh, and Adrian Bustinza, Sergeant Adrian Bustinza. James Fox, the noted filmmaker, um, captured, uh, I think it was for his documentary, I Know What You Saw, and, uh, in any way, he tracked down Colonel Williams.

A golf resort, I think. And anyway, Colonel Williams is retired and he’s lent on the side of his car and he just interviews him. And Colonel Williams attitude was, when the memorandum came out, the whole memorandum, Uh, that should have never have come out, but it did, and it went away, and it had a life of its own, and he basically said you couldn’t put Humpty back together again, and what he meant by that, and I watched the clip over and over at times, and over the time of writing the book, I began to realize its significance, because what he was basically saying is, Okay, for three years we denied everything and then you found the memo.

We could not deny it anymore. It was on a letter headed US Air Force notepaper and it’s a, it’s a genuine US Air Force document. So we can’t deny it. We can’t deny the contents, which is two nights of UFO activity. But we can

[00:54:21] Alex Tsakiris: deny everything else,

[00:54:23] Gary Heseltine: but anything else we will deny. And that’s exactly where Colonel Holt is.

I think his role was, you can say now the memo’s out. You can talk around about your involvement on the night and walk around that. You can talk about John and Jim’s first night. You can talk about that because it’s in the memo. Do not, under any circumstances, talk about little green men, floating entities, another landing, and anything else.

[00:54:56] Alex Tsakiris: Which kind of makes sense. Gary, and that speaks again to folks, the significance of the book, right? So putting that into context. There isn’t

[00:55:05] Gary Heseltine: another book that takes the story. Yes.

[00:55:08] Alex Tsakiris: So, so that explains how we were fed, what we were fed and why we were fed it. And, but it is still the base of understanding because we operated under that kind of illusion for a long time.

So now we can use that as the base and then we can take non human and say, Hey, but they were filming

[00:55:28] Gary Heseltine: it. Hang on. Let, let, let me just put in there because this is important, what you’re saying, because What that does is it affects the narrative and the people that controlled the narrative were Holt Penniston and Burroughs and Nick Pope.

So every TV producer went to them and says, Oh look, we want to make a documentary about Rendlestrom. Who do you want in the program? Well, they decided who the guests would be. Now, if this was any other subject, a political program or an expose, They wouldn’t get a look in, but they were given, effectively, who they wanted.

So they have controlled the way the case has been portrayed. So no other really witness testimony ever emerges in these documentaries. And when new document, new testimony does arrive, like Adrian Bastinza’s, it gets attacked. Like Steve Longero. The first response from Colonel Holt was, oh, it’s just a Larry Warren’s drinking pal.

He’s just got him out. He’s one of his drinking drunk pals. And that’s not the way it should be. It should be, I always felt that Holt should have been the one as a senior person involved to go on the record to say, look, however big or small your party is, let’s all come together as a group and let’s try to work as one to find out what really happened.

But he never did that. And people couldn’t really understand that. But now when you look at it with the, the clip of, uh, what Colonel Williams says. Now, Colonel Williams has said, No, I never was in that field. No, talk of aliens, rubbish. Holt has said, No, I was never in that field. And that’s why when I did the deep dive, and then I came across this admission that he made six years before he retired.

Talk about that. Talk

[00:57:10] Alex Tsakiris: about the specifics of that. Cause you have the evidence in the book. You have reproduced.

[00:57:14] Gary Heseltine: Absolutely. It’s all, it’s all there. And, and there’s, there’s, there’s three types of evidence that happens in all Western world evidence for court, which is oral testimony, written documents, which is called documentary evidence.

And anything that’s. Physical. If I, if I pick up this microphone, that’s something physical you can hold in your hand and you can produce that as an exhibit. That’s called real evidence. But what it means is it’s something physical. So on all the basis of all cases that go to court in the US, the UK, around the Western world.

That’s how evidence is done. Our oral testimony is then turned into written testimony that becomes a written statement. Yeah, but it starts off as oral testimony. So those three are the basis of everything. Now it’s exactly the same with UFOs. You’re going to have witnesses, you’re going to have written information, you’re going to have maybe physical objects, videotape, audio tape in the Holt Memorandum.

If you think of the Holt Memorandum as a document, that’s a unique piece of documentary evidence, written evidence. This is arguably one of the top five, ten documents in UFO history. So what we have is this evidential aspect that most people don’t realize. They just think what evidence? There isn’t any evidence of UFOs.

It’s all rubbish because that’s the way it’s being portrayed. But there is a lot of evidence that you can gather and a lot of the evidence comes in the form of old interviews in little known UFO journals and so I try to do that. Now, when I did the deep dive… I’ve talked to a guy called Ray Boucher. Now, this guy, for me, is an absolute hero.

And yet, I guarantee you, 99 percent of the people in Rendlethorpe and the UFO world have never heard of him. Why? Because people haven’t really given him and his colleague, Scott Colburn, who has sadly passed away recently, uh, uh, the credit they were due. They were MUFON investigators and they lived in Nebraska.

And their senator was Senator James Exxon, who was on the Senate Arms Committee. And so he was a very long standing, well respected senator. And because Ray Boucher and Scott Colburn were MUFON, and they were interested in Rendlesham, because it involved American personnel largely, they went to the Senator Exxon and said, you know, there’s this case in the UK, it’s involving US Air Force Security Police.

Lots of people involved and, and they’re seeing some incredible stuff. Are you interested? And he went, no, I’m not really interested. They met him and they said, well, if we get you more evidence, will you get, you know, take an interest? And he said, well, if you get me more evidence, I will. So cut a long story short, they get in the memo.

They get him the audio tape and he’s kind of interested. So he goes, Ray Boucher, he goes, Do you know what? I’m going to ring Colonel Holt. So he gets all of his number, he’s at a different base. He calls him out in the blue. Colonel Holt is still in the US Air Force. This is not the public personality that you’ve come to know over the last 50 or 60 documentaries.

He’s still in the Air Force. He’s a full bird colonel. He rings him up in April of 1985 and he says, Colonel, I am Ray Boucher. I’m a MUFON, Mutual UFO Network researcher, investigator at Reynolds Forrest. Now by that stage Ray Boucher had actually talked to a number of uh, military witnesses, including Larry Warren and Sergeant Adrian Bustinza.

And so he basically said, uh, right, I’m going to put out a scenario to you and can you give me a comment on it? And he went, okay, I’ve talked to Larry Warren, I’ve talked to Adrian Bustinza and others, uh, basically What they’re telling me is that there is a landing of a craft in a field, that it’s been surrounded by USA Air Force security police officers, it’s been filmed on video motion picture cameras, and that the base commander, Colonel Gordon Williams, in charge of 12, 000 people is there.

And his response was, and he wrote it down verbatim, he says, Yeah, I can verify all of that. I can substantiate all of that for the senator. And when I read that on his notes, his research notes that Ray Bouchier had very kindly sent me, I nearly fell off my chair because there it is and he’d wrote down verbatim.

And let’s just be clear to the skeptics who’ll be out there saying, No, you know, you’ve got the wrong end of the stick. It was unambiguous. He wasn’t unambiguous because go

[01:01:38] Alex Tsakiris: through, go through one by one again, slowly, because each one of them is super significant. The four things that he said, Hey, can you confirm what are the things, the four things?

[01:01:48] Gary Heseltine: So, so what he’d admitted to that was written down verbatim, I can verify that I can substantiate all of that for the Senator, for Senator James Epton was that there’d been another landing. Not the one in the Holt memo. That it was in a field. That US Air Force security police officers were in a cordon around this craft.

That it was being filmed on cameras with motion picture, not still photographs, moving image, video, for want’s sake of a word. And that Colonel Williams, the guy in charge of the top strike base in the United Kingdom, in charge of 12, 000 personnel, was present when all of this is being filmed.

[01:02:35] Alex Tsakiris: The guy who later leans against the car in Fox’s…

Who

[01:02:39] Gary Heseltine: says, no, no aliens, no, that’s all rubbish. But it basically had to admit that there was the memo. And so putting it in the context, suddenly James Exxon doesn’t want to know Scott Colburn or Ray Boucher anymore. And so Ray Boucher keeps ringing up and he talks to his staffers and they say, now he’s busy, he’s busy.

And he basically never gets to see him again. And he keeps getting the push off and he writes letter after letter to Senator Exxon, and they all get rejected and blah, blah, blah. Now, some of the letters that, uh, Ray Boucher wrote were absolutely brilliant, and two of them are highlighted in the book, uh, in full.

Because they are like little pieces of documentary evidence. Because in some of the paragraphs it lays it out, unambiguous. I rang up Colonel Holt on such and such a day, I asked him, I gave him this scenario, that there was a landing in a field, that it was being surrounded by security police, uh, that it was being filmed on motion picture footage, and that Colonel Williams was there, and you said this.

And he’d wrote it down verbatim. So if the, you know, if people had said it was unambiguous, it can’t be because he’s reiterated it

[01:03:55] Alex Tsakiris: completely. So, so that data is super important. And then, oh yeah, but, but here’s the next level stuff that the book, your book non human takes us is it, you have all the pieces in place in the knowledge, in the background to explore this, is that where does this take us in terms of, Adrian Bistenza undergoes this, uh, enhanced interrogation, completely immoral, completely illegal.

Two things I want to go with that. One, that is my lab, right? That is the beginning of my lab because these guys who show up, it’s not their first rodeo. So that is super, super important to this whole thing. And that speaks to Williams leaning against the car. This is, this is a fact when you want to say puts it to bed.

This is a super important point that the book puts to bed that in 1980 they were all over this stuff. No one was particularly surprised. The guy with the camera was there. The whole thing was going, this is not. Their first rodeo. Speak

[01:05:02] Gary Heseltine: to that. Absolutely. Uh, and here’s an interesting development that came, uh, from the book, uh, and in a sense has come post release of the book.

In the conclusions of the book, or in one of the chapters of the book, there is a chapter with an entirely new witness called James Stewart, who was not a security policeman. He was a U. S. Air Force, uh, crew chief. He basically repaired aircraft. Now, in the book… He said that he had this incredible sighting, which we can talk about, uh, but he had this sighting in late December 1980, and he’d assumed that it was the Reynoldsham incident because that was famous.

However, after the book’s release, literally within a week or so of the book’s release, he rang me up and he said, I’ve been checking my personal records, uh, Actually, I left the base in December, uh, in early, uh, 1982, uh, early 1980. Yeah, yeah. Right. So. I think it was February 1980. And so he said my sighting, my event, must have been December, late December 1979.

Now, on the one hand, it takes it away from the late cluster of sightings in late December, but it then throws up all these new questions. Because if this guy is for real, And I checked his records and, and he’s bonafide who he is, really nice guy, no acts to grind, and I think he’s a genuine witness, but his event was December 1979.

Well, if you now think that in late December, a really significant UFO event happened in the forest by the East Gate in 1979, it’s why some people have thought, I wonder why cameras were there? Did they know? Were they in advanced knowledge that something was gonna happen UFO wise, and let’s, let’s put this, uh, skeptical argument to bed.

Some people have ss, uh, uh, have theorized that it’s a, uh, a weapon. Uh, it’s a mass hysteria. It was the lighthouse. It was, uh, uh, some kind of new technology that would been, uh, reflected onto the sky. In the conclusion of the book, I break down all the incidents. into different timed events. And do you know how many incidents there are?

Well you do because you read the book. 18. But taking away one, I said 18, then this James Stewart is taken out because it’s a year earlier. But we’re left with 17 different timed events, all involving Nothing that can be described in any human terrestrial term. We’re talking, uh, beach ball sized glowing red objects, car sized beach ball, uh, uh, car sized glowing objects.

We’re talking about triangles. We’re talking about, uh, white spheres. You know, we’re, we’re talking… Also talking

[01:08:09] Alex Tsakiris: abduction. We’re talking abduction.

[01:08:11] Gary Heseltine: Absolutely. There’s at least two, uh, abduction elements, uh, to the, to the, to the Reynolds from events. But what you’ve got to understand is that nobody ever broke it down in quite that way.

And I go into a lot more sightings and discovered a lot more sightings. Steve Longero, this airman who I did the announced cognitive interview with, he, uh, went on to admit that he’d been inside the nuclear weapons storage area. when he’d seen a UFO shine a beam down into the nuclear bunkers and it was what was underground not inside the bunkers because in the bunkers doors would open and it would go underground the missiles would go the weapons would go underground and he said that so this is first hand testimony we’d never had this before we’d had rumors but now we have a guy putting his name to it in a statement saying i saw a beam coming down into the bunkers and it did this And it did like a grid like search all the way down the hot row of bunkers, which is about 200 meters long.

So he was doing some kind of scan. What is in there? But what also emerged through his new testimony was that he’d literally been on shift a couple of days and he was walking around inside the weapon storage area with an experienced airman or sergeant. He couldn’t quite remember who it was, somebody experienced, which wasn’t the case, showed him what to do, how it worked inside the weapon storage area.

Well, he said, well. When the UFO went off over the, off the, uh, turned its beam off and then went out, it headed towards Reynoldsford Forest, towards the East Gate in Reynoldsford Forest. And he could hear people over the radio following it. And as soon as it went in the forest, then people, there was like an order given that we want as many security police into the forest, because we don’t know what we’re dealing with.

That would be the inference. And so, because he was supernumerary, and it wouldn’t happen ordinarily, He was taken from the site and told to get in a truck and off he went to the forest. Well, when he goes to the forest, he goes to the staging area, the area where they can’t go any further, so they leave the vehicle.

He’s then with a group of 10 or 15 others who are all thinking, what the hell’s going on? And they’re taken to what was described as the first night landing. The depressions in the ground, the triangle of depressions, but guess what? While he’s there, they have a UFO sighting themselves. Nobody had ever heard of that.

So this is brand new information. Now, all that happens is that the likes of Colonel Holt just dismisses it all. Uh, Peniston, I’m, I’m involved in a hoax. I’m, I’m deceiving everybody by making a hoax documentary, because I’m being involved in a documentary called Caterpool Green that’s in post production.

Why would I? Why would I, uh, put all these years into research just to shoot myself in the foot and, and, and hoax the public? That’s not what I’m about at all. I’m trying to get the truth out. And what becomes clear is, uh, as clear as mud, as we would say in the UK, is that there is a complete… Narrative control by four people and that is wrong and I guarantee a hell of a lot

[01:11:31] Alex Tsakiris: more than four people get, get back to that, but that point though, because you, you, you kind of pull back a little bit when I asked that and I can understand why, but it is.

It is scary to think about Adrian in that room. Oh, absolutely. But he wasn’t the only one. No, no, no, he’s not the only one. But, but we’re not, you know, this is, like Abu Gray is on, is on kind of one end, and then we got this. But this guy is all the stuff that we heard. Because right now, we got guys standing up there and saying, manby pamby, you know, disclosure, and yeah, we might have done this, we might have done that.

All this. Own what you did to Adrian. Own PTSD for life. Screwed him

[01:12:15] Gary Heseltine: up.

[01:12:16] Alex Tsakiris: Screwed him up. Not only screwed him up, but I also want you to speak to… It doesn’t just go back to 1979. We can only assume that this goes back to at least 1946, right? So they have all the pieces in place. They’re investigating these things all the time.

They have a very systematic… We can only assume. The burden of proof is on them now. To with this book, with non-human, it further shifts the burden of proof in a lot of these areas to say, okay, I’m glad you’re coming forward, but now tell us, explain to us what happened. Explain to us what happened to the testimony that Adrian gave.

What did you do with it? Where did it go? What other, go ahead.

[01:12:56] Gary Heseltine: Absolutely. Adrian. Adrian Za. Uh, uh, all the interviews should have been recorded. Uh, the statements should have been the notes that were taken. Agent Bastinza said, I gave a three page statement. I never saw it again. I asked for a copy. I never got it.

Where is that? Uh, audio interviews that were regularly done by, uh, Office of, uh, Air Force Office of Special Investigation. Where are all that? Now, one of the incredible things that… has come out in the book and I’ve not really talked about it that much because there is so much to talk about but it’s an incredibly important little piece of information that has huge implications is during the course of my research I spoke to three US Air Force security policemen who said that all of the the main radio channels that the US Air Force security police used Central Security Control, the weapons storage area, and the more like mobile patrols.

They were routinely recorded on audio tape. Now that means there is no ambiguity there. There was all the evidence for all the nights. We wouldn’t have to start piecing it together. But nobody talks about that. Colonel Holt certainly never talked about that. Colonel Williams certainly never talked about that.

But three airmen lower ranks have said, yeah, it was routinely recorded. So where did all that information go? And one other thing here, when we talk, going back to Colonel Holt. Colonel Holt, uh, we now have this classic Edited, well, classic audio tape that’s 18 minutes long, that’s in the public domain.

However, he has told two people that I know, Harry Harris, a Manchester solicitor, and also Georgina Brunei, who was the author of You Can’t Tell The People in 2000, that he had over five hours of audio. Now why is Georgina Brunei gonna make that up and go public with it? Why would she do that? Why would she lie?

She’s not gonna do that. But according to him, no, no, I never said that to Harry Harris. No, I never said that to, uh, Georgina Brunat. And sadly, both of them are not with us anymore. So, you know, there’s something

[01:15:10] Alex Tsakiris: going on. Right, right. And here’s the big question. And we could speak for hours and we would definitely have to talk again.

And I want to do everything I can to help you. Uh. I’ll definitely try my best to help you with publishers, because I talked to him. I definitely try my best to help you with doing a Kindle version as soon as you can, and I’d love to help fund, help you get that, get an Audible version out. Again, I’d like to just give a grant to your work, because this is, I sincerely believe, this is important.

But hold on, let me finish this, this question, because I don’t want to run out of time, your time, or my time. So. You know, Gary, what we’re really trying to figure out, I mean, the ethos of this show is inquiry to perpetuate doubt, but it’s also who are we, why are we here? That’s why I’m interested in ET. I’m not interested in ET because nuts and bolts or technology.

I want to know who I am, why I’m here, and

[01:16:07] Gary Heseltine: where did we come from? Where did we come

[01:16:09] Alex Tsakiris: from? And where, where are we going to, you know, because we’ll talk about what they, what they’ve delivered and the, the, the messages that come through and the download and the binary code and all this, but part of that equation that you are in a unique position to really give us insights.

is again, back to Williams leaning on that car and back to the disinformation and the misinformation. How much do these guys know? We know that UFO is in control. ET is in control. ET decides that, but to what extent does your gut tell you that on one hand, they may just be Scrambling in the dark, you know, I mean, just completely lost in doing this.

On the other hand, they may be, as has been speculated for a long time, partners with one of the groups, one of the species with a certain agenda in doing that. What does your gut tell you is the information game that’s really going on behind this? How much do they really know, do you think?

[01:17:11] Gary Heseltine: In terms of the Americans who have controlled the subject.

literally around the world, uh, since Roswell, certainly since then, if not before, um, I think whilst we may be on the brink of disclosure in terms of an admission that we’re dealing with something non human, that’s possible, a real possibility with the David Grush, uh, revelations, um, Now, I personally think that a month after his, uh, comments, uh, nobody’s laid a finger on him, so I tend to think that he is who he says he is, and that if congressional hearings happen, and he takes part, and other people who are first hand witnesses involved in reverse engineering projects come on the record, Then that might be a game changer in the media, which are still not playing ball at the moment.

[01:18:02] Alex Tsakiris: You don’t think he’s counterintelligence? I mean, you know, Lou Elizonda has been outed over the last year at counterintelligence, playing the game the whole time. He is Richard Doty 2. 0. You don’t think this is Richard Doty 3. 0? Why at this point, counterintelligence, isn’t it a manufactured, they’re carrying some agenda for somebody.

What are they really, no, do they really know this stuff or are they just. Doing the best they can with very, very limited information.

[01:18:30] Gary Heseltine: My take on this based on my evidential background is that there is some agenda at play that we’re not aware of. That there is something driving this current set of developments over the last two years, especially with the changes in legislation in the Congress, et cetera.

It does very much look like I think there is some event that’s happened. UFO wise, intelligence wise, there’s some event that we’re not aware of that is driving the speed of what’s happening now. I have personally always felt that after 2017 there was an attempt by the intelligence community to rewrite history.

In the sense of America doesn’t come out of it very well, they have created the stigma that went with the Robertson panel from January 1953. Everything was debunked, it worked incredibly well, so everybody living after 1954 and after 1953 has lived in a world of debunking. So that’s without a shadow of a doubt, people have died, committed suicide because they’ve been…

lost their jobs, lost their homes because they’ve admitted they’ve seen something. The terrible ramifications. However, my personal thought is that after 2017, there seemed to be an agenda to rewrite history, uh, where America get off the hook a bit. as to their real relevance in this story. They have controlled this since the 1940s.

At every major UFO event around the world, they have turned up, recovered with the retrieval teams. I think, without a shadow of a doubt, uh, Roswell was real. There was a craft, there were bodies, probably, but there was at least a craft, and we have done our very best, or the Americans have done their best, to put this out to engineering, and so trying to make that piece work.

And there has been some. level of success. However, it may be tiny, tiny, and literally we know less than one percent of how something works, but it’s still so advanced that it’s still big for us. But this has all been done without Senate, Congress oversight, which is illegal. in my opinion, and I think they’re trying to get this story out now just to say, look, technology is changing at a pace.

One of the things that I thought for the last seven or eight years is that technology is developing at such a pace. that the likes of sensors on aircraft, on ships, on radar, are picking up things that they didn’t pick up before. So there’s now tons of, uh, data that can be analyzed by scientists. So scientists who clamor for that data and repeatable data, uh, repeatable experience, they’re going to have a wealth of all that now, if it’s released, and they are starting to get some of it.

There’s something driving this, and I think that there is something else going on. That is driving the agenda that says we are very close to a breakthrough. All I can say from my point of view, I’ve been followed the subject since I was 16 at the, uh, when I had my childhood site in, at the age of 16. I’m now 63.

That’s 47 years of following the subject that this feels like the closest in my lifetime that we are to some kind of breakthrough event, quite how it will transpire. and quite to what level, I don’t know, but I think something is driving the Americans to get this out there, that there is some interaction with a non human intelligence, and hence why my book is important, but it will not be important unless people get to know about it, and I will never have the publicity machinery like a publishing house can do, but I’m willing to find a publishing house to say a lot.

This needs to be out there because people are in for a shock and this book will help them come to terms. Uh, as vice president of the, uh, vice of the International Coalition for Extraterrestrial Research, our remit is preparing for contact. You know, uh, we, we’ve got a San Marino initiative that, uh, hopefully will go to the UN.

Either late this year or early next year, we’ll go to the United Nations. The first time since 1978. We are talking about a global issue. This is a human, uh, species issue. This is where we’ve got to get away from. My country’s better than your country. We’re more important than you. We have to start speaking as one humanity.

[01:23:00] Alex Tsakiris: Oh, no, no, no, don’t go there. We can’t, we can’t go there. We did. Actually, we can go there. You want to go there, go there. But you have to go there in the context of non human, because I have to tell you, hold on, hold on, you don’t understand exactly what I’m saying. Everything about this book tells me all the reasons we can’t go there.

We won’t go there. It scares the hell out of us to go there. And it would come, it would take a complete. Paradigm change is too overused, a huge cultural revolution in order for us to go there. I, I, and I want to spin that into a question. You mentioned intelligence, and I think intelligence as an intelligence, uh, apparatus, and we always use that, uh, singular, and I think it needs to be plural, and you’re the right guy.

You’ve been in the military, and you’ve been in policing, and you’ve rubbed shoulders. How many different intelligence agendas do you think might be out there? Because from the people like me who sit on the sidelines and just casually research it, it certainly seems like there’s multiple agendas within these intelligence communities, and they seem to be at odds at various times in terms of who’s going to push this, who’s going to push that.

What does your gut tell you in terms of what are the implications? For that, and who are they teamed up on? Because at some level, this goes much bigger. The global thing is already been done, whether it’s yet. So I’ll leave it there.

[01:24:27] Gary Heseltine: Well, in the time that we’ve got left, what I’ll say, what I’ll say is that.

We’re talking, if, if, if the basic premise, and I believe this is a basic premise, that Roswaal was real and that we recovered some craft from elsewhere, and that there, it proved that there was life out there, uh, which I believe, then if somebody’s got here and there were bodies, then we’ve had that information.

I think logically we would all try to retrieve the machinery and try to make it work and the country that made it work would become the most powerful nation on earth. Some people would say that’s the United States and why they’ve been so powerful. However, so my basic role is, I’ve always believed from my own childhood side to there was life out there.

I had no prior interest but then after that. It’s lit a catalyst in me that then came to full, uh, fruition by becoming a researcher in January, 2002 when I went public with my database. So I’m now 21 years into my public research, but it stayed with me. I do believe that, uh, we are dealing with something that’s probably extra t but the more I’ve got to know about the subject, I now believe.

dealing with non human intelligence. It may be ultra terrestrial, it may be inter dimensional, it may be a combination of all three, but based on the abduction phenomenon, of which I do believe is real, and that most people are sincere, that And what particularly proves that to me is that even in the third world, people without access to media come out with virtually identical stories of being examined and taken aboard, missing time and whatever.

So that says to me something is, is, is happening. They’re real. And based on the abduction of There are commonality of species that are seen seemingly. Now I have no direct evidence to say that that’s real, but there’s a preponderance of evidence all around the world, different cultures to say that something broadly similar is happening on each continent.

So it says to me that Almost certainly there are, uh, extraterrestrial intelligences coming here, but in recent years, and when you look at things like Skinwalker and things like that, and other portals, and I never used to believe any of that kind of thing, but I think over time with the result of quantum, uh, mechanics, that they’re saying, look, there are other dimensions and there may well be parallel worlds.

And so you’ve just got to have an open mind. Now, in more recent years, certain people have said there may well be some very old, uh, inhabitants of the Earth that has, uh, whether it lives in the oceans or wherever, it, they don’t interact, but they’ve been here a long time. I think that’s entirely possible.

When you go back to the ancient alien stuff, um, I kind of believe all that because the petroglyphs all over the world and all the cultures, it’s the sky gods. If you replace sky gods with alien, it makes more sense. When you, you know, biblical, when you think of all the incidents in the biblical, people come down and try some you know, Ezekiel and all that kind of stuff, it makes more sense to replace God with Elliot.

And I think people did not know how to interpret it, what they were witnessing in those days, but I think we do now. And so I think it’s a combination of all those things, but I think personally that we are dealing with non human intelligence and that’s why I called it that. I didn’t say it was ET, I’m saying it’s a combination but it’s certainly not human and that’s what the book is telling and the 17 incidents in the conclusion all time different different people.

They are saying that this was not any kind of an exercise duped on the the poor American servicemen. We didn’t have the technology in those days to do these kind of things and reflect things and whatever. It’s ridiculous. They saw different things and and they Uh, more, a lot of them were really screwed up.

A lot of them were physically injured and have needed help, uh, medically and we just don’t talk about it and I’m, I, I kind of did the book for the other people to say, look, there are still a lot of people I think out there who’ve never gone on the record. But they’re still alive at the moment. But as time goes on, they’re going to pass away.

We need to capture that testimony. And the book is there to say, look, the narrative is wrong. TV is wrong, but unless I can reach the right audience, only a few people are going to know that I’m out there and wrote this book because these people aren’t going to tell you about the book.

[01:29:03] Alex Tsakiris: Let me, uh, let me ask the same question in a different way.

And that is what role do you think we have to play? Disclosure as you outline, because again, let me frame this up. What? What I read non-human, it confirms for me that I absolutely cannot trust my government in any way. Shape. Oh, absolutely. Government. And then Lou Elizondo. I bought Lou Elizondo, you know, shit, I did just like everybody else for a year.

And then he was, Outed as, uh, Intel, you know, running an Intel program. Doty, Doty, you know, his lie was even, his lie was even bigger. He runs that game, that horrible, horrible game. And then he says, well, it wasn’t even about AT. It was about… The stealth. And then the years later, we find out, of course, it was about ET.

So this latest round is just the same thing. I don’t see how anyone could, could really cozy up to intelligence and assume that they’re going to tell us anything. So then I guess the question is, what can we do? Because I think a lot of people rightfully say We really have to do something radically different in terms of how we approach this, in terms of how we collectively organize, how we make contact or make ourselves, what is the, I forgot the slogan that you said, prepare for contact.

But for God’s sake, let’s not talk about intelligence agencies as, as playing, you know, it’s like the old expression, governments should fear their people. People should not fear their, their governments, and we’re in the opposite situation, and we’ve just gone through the last three years where they’ve given us the warm up exercise for how they can lock everything down, run everything, and it’s hard not to assume that this latest disclosure isn’t playing a lot of those same notes over and over again in terms of, you think, you think, You think that was bad?

You watch what we can do in terms of controlling in terms of, because we have to, we have to control it. Look at how big this

[01:31:12] Gary Heseltine: thing is. Well, they’re doing a very good job, uh, of the mainstream media at the moment because they’re still not giving it attention, uh, but I have a thoughts on that. Uh, and I guess we’re gonna have to wait and see, but I can’t see how the momentum that is building up at the moment Uh, there is, it does feel like something is happening momentum wise, and Tim Burchett is, is confirmed that there is going to be some kind of a congressional hearing with witnesses by the end of July, so they’ve squeezed that in.

Quite what it’ll entail, whether it, I mean, the first two congressional hearings were a real downbeat, poor affair, and what it showed was that, uh, basically the Pentagon don’t want this to come out. Arrow is not the office to bring the information out to the public. They are, I think, not wanting this to come out.

But I think the fact that Grush’s credentials are so good, if you think about that he was able to brief the president, he was up to that level. He’s got a higher classification than all the people in, in Arrow, so why would Arrow know? They’re not at the right level. If he really did give, uh, test me for 11 hours, as reported, then, uh, he must be pretty good, because after 10 minutes, the inspector general is going to go, you’re full of shit, out of here.

So the fact that he’s done that, and a month later, nobody’s laid a glove on him yet, and apparently… uh, in the woodwork, uh, the likes of Rubio, Senator Rubio, said that first hand witness testimonies have come forward to back his claims. Now, that’s where the Skeptiko argument was, ah, well, he’s only a hearsay.

Yeah, but his hearsay that said, that’s the program, it’s called this, it’s run by him, it’s based there. Now, if he’s done that for 11 hours, that’s pretty good. And if then people have said, well, I was involved in that program and it is based there, and I have directly had involvement in reverse engineering.

which is entirely possible based on what people are saying, then there’s a real problem. And I think the pentagon don’t want this to come out. They want to control it and are still fighting. And I think this stems back to the 1950s. There’s always been the elements within the military who say this should be given to the people.

We should tell the truth. And then there’s the others who fall behind the intelligence community that have basically hijacked governments and said we’re in control really. We make the decisions, really. You’ll do what we say. And I think there’s been this infighting for donkey’s years. But I do think now there appears to be a possible mechanism for something to happen.

Quite what it will be, quite what… I don’t know. But if… Let’s just imagine a scenario that says… It does happen. I think that at the point that, uh, Grush is backed up by first hand high level military, uh, officials, uh, government officials who say I’ve had direct working involvement, people are not going to be satisfied with that.

They’re going to say, all right, that’s pretty good. But we want to see the proof. The only way you’re going to convict, uh, convince 95 percent of the world who thinks it’s bullshit is some kind of proof. Now we, we, we’ve heard this talk of a 23 minute video taken by a pilot, uh, in clear daylight, and there’s an object sat right next to his plane for 23 minutes.

Tim Burchett, Senator Burchett talks about that. Well, I think that’s what needs to come out, to say, look, this ain’t Russian. This ain’t China. We’re dealing with something that comes from elsewhere, wherever that elsewhere is. And I think that could happen. But I also think that, and I’ve said for many years, at the moment, There are a number of bricks coming out of a dam and the water pressure is building on the central point of the dam and it’s getting bigger and bigger as more bricks come out but at some point there’ll be a critical mass, the dam will bust and then you’re into disclosure and it’ll be 24 7, every news channel, like a terrorist incident, like a Covid kind of thing, it’ll be a new paradigm.

Then there’s going to be a lot of public anger, then there’s going to be a lot of media anger, because most of the media have been duplicitous in covering this up at the highest level, but not at the ordinary level. Most people are good people, but I think there’ll be a huge backlash if it turned out that…

Indeed E. T. was real and has been here for a long time and the Americans pulled it up. There’s going to be a huge backlash against the American people, the American, uh, against the military, governments, and also, uh, the, uh, the media. How do you deal with that? Well, to me, I’ve always thought of South Africa and the apartheid regime.

You should have, uh, Truth and Reconciliation hearings as a way of just saying, look, I was involved in that program. I couldn’t talk about it. Yes, we were dealing with this. I lied. I was a disinformation expert. Put him on the stand and say, thanks for your testimony. Right. Okay. You’ve given your piece. Go on.

We don’t send you to prison. We’re not out there to shoot people. But just admit your part in this story and let’s get the story out there because it’s the biggest story, if real, for humanity. It’s the, everybody will say that as and when and if contact with a non human intelligence is acknowledged universally that it will be the most profound moment in human history.

So we’re on, it seems like we’re on the brink of something. I hope I’m right, I hope I’m not dreaming this up, but it does appear that there’s momentum and there’s a mechanism. To make it, maybe make the breakthrough and the mainstream will only get, take it serious at congressional hearings when first hand witnesses like Robert Salas will go on because I think there’ll be lots of hearings and Robert Salas will say, yeah, I was in the missile bunker six, 80 feet underground and then 10 missiles were shut down.

The American public have never heard this unless you go to a UFO documentary. 95 percent of the world thinks it’s rubbish. This is the biggest cover up, I think, in history. The whole of the last 7, 500 years, all the history books will need to be rewritten. If this is true and there needs to be a mechanism to deal with the anger that will come from it because people have been lied to all their lives, people have lost jobs, people have been ridiculed, uh, some, you know, people have taken lives and whatever.

So that’s where we’re at. Whether it’ll happen, I don’t know. I hope it does. Because whatever happens, I think the public have a right to know. If there is that content,

[01:37:53] Alex Tsakiris: abso absolutely love the optimism. Wish I could share it with you, , but I certainly, I’m an optimist. I, I hope it comes out that way. I hope we can turn back the clock to days when that is possible and maybe we can, you make it, you make a good

[01:38:09] Gary Heseltine: case.

I, I, I, I think. that when Eisenhower gave his speech about the military industrial complex complex, he said we must guard against the military industrial complex. And I think he was probably the last president, uh, to have any real handle on the intelligence community. And at that point there, he was maybe giving you an inkling that we’d lost to the intelligence community.

[01:38:32] Alex Tsakiris: So that, that’s, I guess, for a lot of folks, that’s where the optimism wanes a little bit, is like they’ve had, they’ve had the rains for a while. Hey, this again is, uh, fantastic. Gary, thank you so much for, for doing this. The book that you’re going to want to check out, Non Human, The Rendition Force, UFO Incidents.

17 of them. You will be blown away, and uh, we gotta make sure that we support Gary in any way we can to get this book out as much, as much as possible. It’s uh, really is gonna be paradigm shattering for a lot of people, and especially folks who know a little bit about the case, because that grounding is fundamental.

If you thought you knew

[01:39:17] Gary Heseltine: the case, forget it. You don’t. Perfect

[01:39:22] Alex Tsakiris: way of putting it, Gary. Thanks again.

[01:39:25] Gary Heseltine: You’re welcome. Thank you very much. Anytime.

[01:39:28] Alex Tsakiris: thanks again to Gary for joining me to Dan. Skeptiko the one, question it up from this interview. I think has to do with the part at the end where we kind of disagreed. I mean, he’s just over optimistic about the chances that these people who, as he reveals have controlled twisted. , manipulated.

Leveraged in every extent, this information that he reveals in the book that they would now somehow come clean or that to whatever extent they’re going to come clean, it wouldn’t be part of some agenda that isn’t being revealed to us. So I’d like your opinion on that. I think you got mine. So let’s hear what you think.

All right. I guess that will do it for this one until next time. Take care. Bye for now.

Take care. Bye for now.

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