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Audio Clip: [00:00:01] Do you think you can elude us forever Carlos? Wait, you got the wrong guy, my name is Simon, look just let me go, there’s no need to kill me, I haven’t seen your face, don’t do it, I didn’t see it. The game’s over, your career as a international terrorist has been well documented. No. Oh yeah. I sell cars that’s all, good bye, I’m not a terrorist. I’m actually a complete coward, if I ever saw, oh God help. Please don’t don’t, don’t.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:00:32] Yes, yes, a throwback movie to the good old fun days. Arnold Schwarzenegger, Tom Arnold, Bill Paxton yucking it up in True Lies about a fun covert intelligence operation not at all scary, where the terrorists are really just used car salesmen. Oh, the good old days. Maybe they weren’t so good, here’s what was really going on.

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:01:01] Well, you cut his teeth in Vietnam I mean, doing this very, very spooky operation called wandering soul. He developed these recordings known as ghost tape number 10 and basically what they would do is they would play these sort of eerie sounds and wailings. The idea of this was to sort of suggest then to play off what they imagined as being the Vietnamese belief in wandering ghosts and spirits. It’s very Sam Harris had this sneering thing where it’s like oh, we can manipulate these savages beliefs. Even to bring it up to the 80s to Michael Quinn is very odd performances on Oprah and The Geraldo show, when he went on to you know, basically defend the temple of set and satanic practices and stuff during the height of the so called satanic panic, you could almost see a parallel between operation wandering soul and what he was doing there, because he was going on TV in such a provocative way, where it’s like he knew he was going to basically trigger all of the kind of conservative Christian types that were being terrified by what Oprah and Geraldo and all these other people were saying about how there’s these evil cults. But then he was also sitting there and going like, that is actually not true. I am you know, I might have devil eyebrows and have this like you know, like very witchy wife and stuff and seem very sinister. But you know, actually there’s nothing to see here. It’s almost like it in the sense of the real goal of the recording of Wandering Soul was to get the Vietcong soldiers to get angry and reveal their position and expose themselves. And it was all about eliciting a psychological reaction that was actually not exactly what the kind of extensible goal of the operate of the psyop.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:02:43] So I got this interview coming up with the guys from Subliminal Jihad, which is a fantastic podcast that I discovered and I’m with you to check out as well. We cover so many topics in this interview, but one of the focus points is this guy Michael Aquino, who is a Satanist pedophile, probably murder of children almost for sure. And a guy who was legitimately embraced by our military and intelligence organizations. I mean, he was totally embedded. He was highly, highly regarded for his knowledge and insights for mind control and mind games. Here’s an additional clip.

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:03:20] And I think that you know, for instance, you mentioned the twerking on the devil you know, this is a huge Flashpoint in our culture, a huge controversy over Lil Nas X’s video, a common point that people made of the video was that well you know, look at the ending you know, Lil Nas X actually, he’s using his sexuality to seduce the devil, but in the end he kills the devil and then he puts the devil’s horns on himself so really, he’s killing Satan so Isn’t that good? It’s like, well you know, if you think about what these people like Michael Aquino, for instance, what they really believe like that actually matches up perfectly with their ideas about how their relationship with these entities work you know. They of course, no one’s ever going to sign on to like the Christian idea of a deal, with the devil like that people will warn you about, no one would take that deal probably you know, it’s because they think that they have a loophole, they always have a way out you know, and oftentimes, it’s because they can ascend themselves, they can become you know, the Dark Prince or you know, the God unto themselves. That’s exactly what Satanism teaches like, which is you know, there’s a vulgar more secularized version of that in the Church of Satan and then even further more secularized version of that and the Satanic Temple, where you have the idea that there you know, you can yourself it’s all about the grand Iseman of the self, you know, the ascension of the self, the Godhead of the, becoming a God. Yeah, exactly, they think that they’re not going to be accountable because they will you know, find a loophole that they will become, they will become set.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:04:46] You know as I’ve said before, I’m not into staring into the abyss and I don’t want to do it in this case, but I do feel like we do need to reach as I keep saying in this interview, terra firma, we need to have some above ground that we stand on to at least look out and assess the playing field. Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I’m your host Alex Tsakiris and today we welcome two very interesting guys, creators of a remarkable podcast called Subliminal Jihad. We have Dimitri Poshlost and Khalid Binyaqub here to join me now. I had to struggle through those names guys, did I get, was that okay?

Subliminal Jihad: [00:05:34] Yeah, yeah, you did it.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:05:38 ] Because like I said, from here on out, it’s Dimitri and Khalid the whole way.

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:05:43] Yeah, that’s works for me.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:05:48] So you know, I kind of stumbled across your really, truly remarkable kind of off the radar, I think for a lot of people, but let’s hope not, show from the Opperman report. And I was kind of blown away and I came over to your excellent sound. It’s on Sound Cloud and it’s also on…

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:06:09] Spotify, we’re on apple’s podcast.

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:06:12] Yeah and Patreon as well.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:06:14] Okay Great. So I did, I’m on Patreon too, support these guys, they’re doing some really, really great work. So I started digging into the shows and you know, I’m thinking of this as kind of a swap cast kind of thing in that I just want to kind of introduce this podcast to people and then we’ll just kind of chat about the world kind of thing because the shows that these guys do, two sometimes three hours with dense, dense information. I was telling Dimitri, it’s like I love listening to him but I’m like, they’re pausing and making audio notes the whole way through with all the, and they’re not doing name dropping kind of thing, they’re doing like, deep name connection, this idea and that idea and so many things that we talked about on this show. So great to have you guys here. welcome to Skeptiko. Can you start by telling us a little bit about your background and then the origins of this podcast?

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:07:16 ] Yeah sure, It’s great to be here, I’m very excited. And yeah, I don’t know, Khalid I guess we we’ve known each other for quite some time.

Khalid Binyaqub: [00:07:25] Yeah we’re all IRL friends, you know, which isn’t the case with all podcasts. But yeah, we are authentic IRL friends and we yeah, we’ve known each other for a while and we both had, we talked about doing this for a long time because I think as you mentioned on the show you know, we both did like a lot of writing, like creative writing you know, collaboratively together, like at various times. And you know, we would have long conversations brainstorming ideas for things, projects like that and we always felt that we would be good at the podcast. I mean, I feel like something that people often point out about our shows that I have, like a very annoying voice and Dimitri has like a very sonorous like moleculus, sort of beautiful one, which wasn’t something that I thought of as being an anatomy of the podcast, I just thought that since we talked like at such length, like all the time you know, it would just be a natural fit. And we always had an interest in you know, in the art called the Dimitri, particularly in conspiracies and that type of thing. And I’ve always been interested in religion, spirituality in particular you know, esoteric forms of that. So I felt like we had kind of intersection of interests. And I went over kind of talking about what the podcast theme would be, that was naturally what we gravitated to. So, yeah that’s kind of the short Genesis of it, I don’t know if you wanted to add anything to that Dimitri.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:08:42] We’ll Khalid, one second there, cause I totally get that and that’s super interesting. What about you know, personally you guys don’t reveal a lot, you guys are really kind of off the radar a little bit. I mean personally about you know, how old are you? What is your background? What did you do before this? What do you do now? I mean, what are your…

Khalid Binyaqub: [00:09:03 ] Yeah, we’re millennials, I’m an academic, yeah I’m an academia and yeah, I’m like a Slavic intellectual history is what my research is and yeah…

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:09:14] Yeah as for me, I live in Los Angeles, that’s another thing about us, we’re on both coasts so…

Khalid Binyaqub: [00:09:20] Yes, right.

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:09:21 ] We used to live in the same place but not for many years, which is kind of why the Skype and zoom brainstorming session started to begin with. But I’ve been in LA for like about a decade and I’ve worked kind of in and around the film business and like Khalid said, I’ve done a decent bit of screenwriting, kind of in the periphery of Hollywood and a lot of the scripts that I had worked on maybe over the last five or six years, a lot of them had a very heavy historical bent or you know, they were either biopics or historical things. So I ended up doing tons of research into certain topics that led me down these rabbit holes where I just kept digging further and further and further, and then kind of that’s actually where I think kind of my interest in quote unquote conspiracy culture really took off. And then, yeah I know I’ve worked as a video editor and bunch of other things around you know, LA and it’s like the entertainment business, and nothing that you would like notice if I like shattered it out right now but you know, just a lot of things here and there. So yeah, that’s like, we do have kind of like an art background to some extent, which I think is like an interesting angle to take you know, we talk a lot about Hollywood and cinema, and you know that kind of, the art form and kind of more contemporary sense because also, like part of the reason I think, besides the pandemic that finally really pushed us into starting the podcast was this feeling that Hollywood is less and less amenable, certainly to the types of projects I had been working on for five years. And you know in some cases, for example, they were critical, they had themes in it they were critical of the United States military and I found out in a very subtle way, going to dozens and dozens of meetings and you know, with producers, executives and stuff and a couple of times people you know, kind of told me under their breath, look man you know, anything that has the military, that has anything negative about the military in it is not going to get funding from the military you know, they give out free stuff, if you write something about them, but then they get script approval on it and so if you write something that they don’t approve of, then the budget of your project just skyrocketed and therefore most producers are loath to even kind of get involved. And that’s why you basically don’t see any antiwar or Empire critical content coming out of Hollywood, I think probably since like the Iraq War days was the last little tiny bird instead, it’s all about how brave the CIA is and stuff. So that’s kind of maybe more of my, like personal motivation of being very frustrated in Hollywood and realizing that there is so much so many layers of subtle kind of massaging and certain doors allowed to be out you know, certain doors open other ones closed, it’s kind of this very you know, you could almost say subliminal system of gatekeeping. And like, in a kind of way that you know, and I think both of us you know, having done creative writing, like understand that you know, there’s ideological content.

Alex Tsakiris: [00: 12:21 ] Let me interject something here and either one of you guys can address it. But directly to you Dimitri, because I was just thinking about this the other day, one of the things I appreciate about you guys, you guys say you’re millennials, I’m a little bit older than that. But I appreciate that you’re not afraid to go back and kind of dig through some recent history. So you know, Michael Aquino is one of the first shows that kind of caught my attention, the kind of high satanic priest and chaplain in the United States Army have proven pedophile and proven Satanist and all this, but he’s circa 1960 you know, and before, as you guys trace and you guys did an awesome job of tracing that whole history. But my point is, that to a certain extent what your show does by its willingness to go back you know, even like you did the thing on Jeffrey Epstein. It’s like okay, start cranking it back and now boom, the connection start leading us further and further back. Don’t you get kind of a more of a business as usual sense about that, Dimitri? You know, when you talk about Hollywood in the last 10 years and what’s going on, fuck man, business as frickin you know, normal.

Dimitri Poshlost: [00: 13:35] Oh, 100% 100%. And I think the more that I’ve, I’ve had to revise even my own history and even in some of our most recent episodes, I’ve discovered new things that throw even yeah, the further back history of Hollywood in quite a different light that you know, I realized that yeah no, that’s been a gradual process of discoveries that Hollywood’s always been, it’s always been Hollywood babble. And you know what I mean, from like the very beginning, it’s always been a dirty business. And I think it’s just sort of like, there new things manifesting. I think the really, the only thing that’s kind of really new in the last 10 years in particular is the hybridization or some would say, you know, takeover of Hollywood by Silicon Valley and the tech companies. And now that is like, they are actually, it within a span of about five to seven years, they’ve become kind of the undisputed hedge Amman’s of the entire like movie business and you know, but even that goes back so much further to say that you know, oh they just started kind of interacting with one another in the 2010s. They do you know I mean, these are the two biggest industries in California you know, it makes sense that they would have overlap going further back and also just with the Satanism thing. I mean you know, we’ve talked a lot about the 60s and that’s another big like, ontological breakthrough that I think you know, I had over the last few years is that the 60s were not exactly what we were commonly told. They were whether you kind of agree with the 60s or you think that they were stupid, because America rules or hippies were bad or something like that you know like, both of those narratives are kind of wrong and that there was so much more going on in terms of like social manipulation and cultural manipulation that is so baked into our culture now that it’s like that’s maybe, that kind of fuels us I think on our deepest dives is, we have to unpack all this dislike faulty ontology, that has been built over decades and in some cases, centuries you know, if we’re talking about the United States overall, that you know to get the kind of truth or try to apprehend kind of where we’re really at. I think you do have to, yeah you have to dig back and then you do find that you’re absolutely correct, that it ain’t nothing new under the sun as we love to say.

Khalid Binyaqub: [00:15:51] Yeah that’s why I think historical methodology is very valuable because there’s two, it’s really a dialectical thing because yeah like, as Dimitri said, oftentimes our refrain is that there’s nothing new under the sun which is you know, something that we say kind of ironically, it’s a reference to a kind of a reactionary podcast that we stumbled upon a little bit of a fascist Convo ongoing between two esteemed mics but…

Dimitri Poshlost: [00: 16:16] Micheal Scheuer the Binladin Hunter.

Khalid Binyaqub: [00:16:18]

I think that there’s a lot of value to historical methodology because yeah, on one hand, you have what we mentioned, but on the other that’s you, it’s often good to have a granular approach and something that is very encouraged when you’re dealing with historical topics is to really do hone in on the fine differences, the fine distinctions between different things and you can see, I think that there are changes. And I think that we tried to stress the dialectic between these overarching trends, these broad trends and use that you know, things that happen in the long DeRay versus things that you do transform in the microcosm, I think that yeah, that’s part of his lyrical approach is to show the changes and to show the way these things evolve and develop and a lot of times yet there are continuity but there are also breaks. Like, I think that the cultural history, especially the history of art, which you mentioned is very interesting because you know, at the surface level, a lot of times people will get into the sort of hidden world and they want to deal with hidden knowledge, like occult subjects you know, it’s something that is a perennial topic and conspiracy, culture and conspiracy discourse, which is something that we definitely touch on a lot in our podcasts. And something that came to this for I think is a good example, during the sort of pizza gate discourse. It’s sort of at the election time in 2016 was you know, Marina Abramovich you know, someone who’s like, pretty well known to people who are involved in art or in performance art or have a knowledge of that type of thing. But this is breaking into a totally different field where people who had never had any contact with this stuff are like what is this like, Oh my God, like you know, so it’s very interesting to explore you know, these topics are very of great interest to people but there isn’t much for one. I think that in general, like in American culture, there’s a lack of historical awareness writ large, like people’s politics are very underdeveloped because of their lack of historical appreciation, but particularly that kind of domain of culture and the, like art is something that’s marginalized anyway, its importance in shaping a culture and in shaping our you know, in our society and our relationships with each other and with different institutions. But I think that in particular, the history of art, the cultural evolution of art, and the link between art and the art called in between art and politics, and the way that these sort of elite subcultures move together. That’s something that’s very interesting, and is a story that’s not really well appreciated, like within those discursive fields I think.

Alex Tsakiris: [00: 18:36] See, I don’t know and that’s where I guess, when I shot you this email and I said, I want to get to terra firma, because you know and I just did a book Why Evil Matters and the kind of premise of the book was that we’ve been intentionally kind of given the bait and switch not really, but with evil, but we have a materialistic science that says, evil doesn’t exist. Yeah, you’re a biological robot and meaningless universe, It’s a social construct and nothing more.

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:19:09] CPU.

Khalid Binyaqub: [00:19:10 ] Sloppiness, yeah.

Alex Tsakiris : [00: 19:13] Then on the other hand we got the only other, we’re kind of given this forced choice, or if you’re going to you know, explore the possibility of evil and what that would mean for for yourself personally, what that would mean, Is there a moral imperative? How shall I lead my life kind of thing? Then you’re kind of forced over to religious dogma, and it says, Oh hold on buddy, you had a spiritual experience, let me jump right in the middle of that, let me be the intermediary between you and your spiritual experience and tell you exactly what it was. See and I had all this great material and then you blew it because I found out Khalid, you really are a Muslim and I was like, Whoa I was gonna do this whole thing on Ed Opperman who’s show you’re on, and say I love Ed Opperman, I’ve supported Ed Opperman on various times but he’s a big tent fundamentalist Christian that believes that there’s this book that has answers to how we should live our life and talk about conspiracy, which has been my kind of thing lately is unwilling to explore the possibility that the, that really the authors of the book were part of the social engineering project and using the well worn play of, throughout history but that the Romans really perfected which is like, sure rocks and arrows are great, but if I can control you by controlling and rescripting your religion all the better. So I don’t know where did, to me that kind of Trumps the art history thing of getting to the fundamental reality of what we’re talking about with something like, evil or satanic or you know, whatever the…

Khalid Binyaqub: [00:20:55] Yeah I think your assumptions are very interesting. I mean, I think the best art does deal with those topics and there is a philosophical dimension to what art engaging with, I mean even I think that Marina Brahmfish you know, her work really does deal with those questions and it has the symbology of it, it’s so powerful to people just because the performance art does have a ritual dimension to it, which touches on these religious ideas you know, that’s, it’s the intersection that creates the interest. So I think that yeah absolutely, you’re right and we do often deal with these ideas on the show. I mean, our show is very heavily inspired by these questions or religious ontology and these core concepts but yeah, I think that you know, well for one Muslims, I certainly don’t necessarily disagree with what you said about Christianity as a pretty common notion. But you know of course there’s…

Alex Tsakiris: [00:21:41] But wait a minute, hold on, hold on, full stop, full stop, if we’re gonna go there. I mean, you guys are still looking at the book and saying the book has all the rules, whether it’s the Old Testament or whether it’s the current, you’re still saying, hey, it comes through this book. And let’s just be real for most people, you just go for real, really call it that’s you believe there’s this book, there’s this…

Khalid Binyaqub: [00:22:02] Well I don’t think that’s true for most people, I think that most people do believe something like that about a book. And we don’t believe that it’s magic, we believe that it’s prophetic revelation from a lot. But the fact is that there’s all interpretations of the book you know, the interpretation of the book is something that happens in between the text itself you know, there’s something and this is something that you know, Islamic philosophers and Islamic thinkers, like always acknowledge that something happens in between the, in the act of reading you know, the Quran is first existed verbally you know, this is something that you know it’s reading and it’s also recitation you know, it’s something that when you recite the Quran it’s an act, it takes place with your entire body. And you know, there’s a bit of a digression but there’s always an interpretive practice that happens and that’s why within Islam there’s so many different interpretations of the Quran. If you go through history you know, you even have esoteric sects that interpret the Quran in completely different ways you know, people who read the words you know, a lot of the Quran isn’t cut and dry, some of it is and the Quran itself says that some verses are straightforward and others are more jazz you know, they’re they’re allegorical, they’re open to different sorts of interpretations and the but it doesn’t specify which are which. So there’s great as sort of a debate about this you know the divinity of the Quran doesn’t really minimize the, what you’re talking about, I think or what you’re getting at, the fact that there is a dimension of human interpretation you know, it’s about the interaction with the book you know, no book exists without the reader you know, it only exists insofar as we read it and engage with it and interpret it. So to you know, the book can’t just program us you know, it’s not like it’s a software that we insert into ourselves you know, maybe some Muslims would like it if that were the case but that’s not really just how these religions unfold. Historically you know, for instance a document being a born again Christian you know, his interpretation of the Bible, even the role of the Bible is going to be different than from like a Catholic or something like that so…

Alex Tsakiris: [00:23:56] It just doesn’t hold up to the slight kind of scrutiny and this isn’t what I was planning on going with the show. But I’ve now stacked up about 10 shows, I just got super interested in the origins of Christianity because it really, the further you dig in, it has all the all the fingerprints of a psyop. And the real giveaway is Josephus right, Josephus who is the quote unquote, Roman historian, he’s not really…

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:24:22 ] Yes.

Alex Tsakiris : [00:24:22] A historian, he’s a propaganda agent to the Romans. But you can’t get past Josephus and then just jump right into the Quran and say, Oh we can, It all flows together, If Josephus is is a propaganda agent who is trying to co-opt Judaism in favor of the Roman Empire first is what he does and I can show you exactly the passage in More of The Jews where he says, hey you Jews you got it wrong you know, what you’ve been looking for the Messiah Born on our soil, which really should have been looking at his Vespasian, the Emperor you know, Tituss’s father. So the point is not getting off into that whole thing, which my audiences are 50 times now it’s getting tired of, you got to process that in this whole thing. You can’t say, Oh well then there’s Catholics and there’s, well there’s Protestants and they do it this way and the Mormons have taken, no if the thing fails at that level at first century Rome, psyoping religion that then spawns all those religions, Islam and Judaism and Christianity in all its forms, you got to get back in if it doesn’t hold, it doesn’t hold, you can’t just gloss over it with you know, convenient well, it’s allegorical and you know the interpretation of it is, I believe that people can have a genuine spiritual experience because the science kind of is overwhelming for example, the near death experience science, you can’t get past it, it blows neurology, our model of neurology out of the water. And every culture throughout time has said there is such a thing as this spiritual experience, but I just don’t think the book thing really holds up.

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:26:11] Can I ask a question related to this? So if you believe and I’m open to entertaining this idea, if you believe that, say Christianity or Judaism and all the Abrahamic tradition that followed from it was a psyop. Do you believe that it was one continuous group or kind of order or something like that? Like who would you pause it was behind this? I mean, I guess I could definitely see the Spasian and the Romans particular from Josephus up to you know, Theodosius and Constantine basically co-opting Christianity, and then you know, cloaking themselves in it you know, in like the three hundreds, but who would you say you know, if there was if the you know, the Jewish text going way, way back. If it was all aside do you think it was the same psyop? Or do you think it’s different elites throughout history have weaponized spiritual ritual practice and religious dogma?

Alex Tsakiris: [00:27:08] I don’t know but I would, I think it’s a fantastic question. I would definitely, definitely assume that it’s the latter. Because if you really look at the possibility and explore it and I’m like in conversation, email and interview conversation with leading you know biblical and religious scholars who most of them are telling me I’m full of shit, but some of them are saying, yeah come on, that’s really the only way to kind of process that. But if you do process it what you wind up with is, Josephus first attempt at this is to kind of co-opt Judaism, right? Because that’s when he says the Spasian is the Emperor. Well that has nothing to do with Christianity. It’s actually written after supposedly, the historical Jesus lived but it’s really an attempt just to kind of quell, so to see it as this kind of continuous psyop that’s played over hundreds of years, I think it’s silly. But to have it like we see today you know, it’s just, it’s a play in the playbook. It’s Gloria Steinem you know, people get tired to hear me talk about that. It’s Gloria Steinem CIA sticker in the women’s movement, we’ll figure out how to use it later. It’s Laurel Canyon, stick those guys up there on the stage, we don’t have to have a definitive plan on how we’ll use it. Let’s just make sure we’re in that game kind of thing. So if I had to guess that’s how I think it happens.

Khalid Binyaqub: [00: 28:37] Okay, yeah. I mean he is a phenomenon that does occur.

Dimitri Poshlost: [00: 28:41] Oh, yeah for sure.

Khalid Binyaqub: [00: 28:41] I don’t think that like yeah, I kind of agree with Dimitri’s implication that I you know, I think that’s a very different thing to talk about the origins of Islam and the origins of Christianity you know, I think that there’s certainly a Muslim in particular Christianity you know, we don’t really follow the Bible itself. You know, the New Testament we don’t believe is you know, the actual Injeel generally speaking you know, there might be some difference but yeah, there’s a, it’s a very different context.

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:29:07 ] Yeah and just also to do what I love to do on our podcast, which is like Shoehorn Marxism into conversations about religion and vice versa. It doesn’t remind me of a lot of time kind of like the Anthony Sutton like Hoover Institute type a sort of conspiracy speculation about Karl Marx about Lenin about Trotsky, how you know I’ve even heard that you know, Stalin was working for the Rothschilds and everything about the history of like the Bolshevik Revolution and 20th century socialism and the Cold War and all that stuff was just like hey galleon dialectic a new under the sun just the banker family sponsoring different factions and that maybe in a similar way where it’s where call it would push back on you know, intimations of the crown was cynically, like manufactured I would to probably, maybe Trotsky but for the most part that you know, and regardless of kind of like how the ideas are you know, left behind in these books were kind of taken by other people and instrumentalized and what unfolded in the history after that, I don’t know maybe it’s the kind of thing where you need to have at least something that you choose to put some kind of faith in if you’re going to be radically critically paranoid about everything else, I don’t know but I guess…

Alex Tsakiris: [00:30:22] well I guess where I’m coming from, and then we can kind of ease off of this because Terrafirma is where I’m coming from.

So consciousness and you know, like when we did, you guys did this survey for me and you played along when it’s awesome. And I, I have such a better sense for where you’re coming from and I wouldn’t have known otherwise. So I appreciate that. But when I started this investigation was really kind of looking at it from a scientific standpoint.

Does the kind of atheist intellectualized. Academia kind of humanist approach, does it really makes sense that is your biological robot and a meaningless universe. Get over it, you know, get your credit card out and go to black Friday. Cause that’s all you have to live for. Life is meaningless. And I find that that doesn’t, that isn’t supportable philosophically and it’s really not supportable scientifically at all.

And I came to the conclusion. I came to the conclusion after way too long and way too many interviews that, that wasn’t accidental, that, that wasn’t engineered socially engineered message is to make you feel meaningless, make you feel you have no spiritual connection to anything more because you’re easier to control and manipulate.

So that was my starting point. But then that also led me into how would we end up pre-scientific using scientific methods and ideas? How would we explore this extended consciousness that everyone’s talking about? And that’s why I think it’s so interesting. Like, cause I do want to get back onto the stuff that you guys talk about because I’m totally sincere in what I said.

You guys have this deep dive and I want to learn from you. Cause I already do. I listen. I learned from every time I listen to your shows, but one thing I always point out to people I pointed MK ultra and I point to project Stargate, which the remote viewing project, which a lot of people go, wait, wait, remote viewing.

Now remote viewing is MK ultra. And if you go listen to hell, put off in Russell targ, they say, when Sydney came to see us being Sydney Gottlieb, you know, he was the boss. He was the guy. Well, the point of all that is remote viewing. And so many of the other images, ultra programs, presuppose, an extended consciousness that is beyond our bought in some of them presuppose, whatever that satanic, whatever we’re going to call it, that there are these other beings in this extended realms that may be malevolent, but Hey, we got to go see, let’s go check them out

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:32:45] kind of thing.

Yeah. Let’s go hang out with, with gin. Exactly. Yeah. Chin,

Alex Tsakiris: [00:32:50] I loved the, I loved, I was going to share that last show. You know, a Bigfoot is a gin kind of thing. I love that. So the point being, I think. I’m not poking at Islam to like, make some joke, I’m poking at it because I think we fundamentally, in order to understand a Keno in order to understand the military industrial complex, which is completely wrapped around inseparable from Michael Aquino, I think we have to understand what there is there when it comes to these extended consciousness realms, and the, if we’re, if your definition of those extended consciousness realms is, wait, let me get my book out then I’m like, Whoa, I’m not so sure on that at Opperman.

Yeah.

Khalid: [00:33:41] Well, yeah. I think that, well, for one to the me, while you’re talking to me about in terms of spiritual experience, you know, to me like the core and is this sort of a record of like a profound spiritual moment and time, you know, and I think that that is why people look to this. And I think that.

That is in terms of trying to understand these types of things, the spiritual dimension of human life. I think part of the side, you’re talking about part of the attempt to sort of disconnect us from our it’s the spiritual component of, of human experience. And to make us feel like what CPS is floppy disks.

Part of that is, you know, to go back to the topic of history part of that is the disconnect from a religious tradition from all the work and all the effort that has been poured into these subjects, because whatever you want to say about them, and yeah, like there are like flaws or maybe blind spots in those traditions that we now are better equipped to address a lacuna, but there really is like a great wealth of information and the problems that we intercept now.

And we try to take approach these problems, these topics they have been encountered before, but people lack the historical awareness. They lack these, the appreciation for it. And this is true of religious people, as well as people who aren’t religious. You know, I think that is a general disconnect with the history of, of people’s own traditions.

And I think that that is something that, yeah, you definitely absolutely can learn about these topics because it does belong to the same realm. Like if you’re talking about statin, you know, you’re talking to me about these being, talking about the gin things like that, you know, that is where a lot of the work out of the groundwork has been laid.

And a lot of the there’s a great continuity between people like a queen, you know, they go back. So those ideas, you know, at queen on might go back to the Nazis or whatever, and the Nazis are going to, you know a runic paradigms as processed by theosophy or whatever, or like the, you know, some places like it’s a terrible idea of like the Vedas.

Yeah, exactly. But these are traditions are obviously dealing with the, their remixes or engagements with. And oftentimes they’re imagined as being some kind of old, long standing subversive underground movement within these religious traditions, you know, there to deal with like much religious, like Christianity or a slammer, whatever the other large religions, you know, that, that is part of like a study of these things because they do use the same terms.

Like if. You know, calling demons, you know, it’s the same thing as like John D summoning demons, you know, they there’s things in that relationship.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:36:12] I call it, I guess what I’m proposing is that it’s all a head fake. It’s all unnecessary because the, what we’re really talking about is that there is this extended realm that can manifest itself in an unlimited number of ways.

And there’s a malevolent part of that. So to identify it and label it this way, that way, you know, Oh, it’s a Baphomet in this case. No, that’s Lucifer. No, that’s, you know, is just kind of part of the problem of that need to know that, you know, kind of need to kind of categorize it. And that spiritual disintermediation is not that hard.

Anyone can go within. Anyone can say that. What I’m really trying to do is connect with my heart, to love everyone and tell the truth. We’ve got some fundamental, simply simple ideas that, you know, I can read one passage from the Quran, right. I can throw the rest away all’s I need to do is try and be a good person.

So I would almost. Yeah. I just think we need to explore the possibility that the exact opposite of what you’re saying is true is that these disconnecting from religious traditions is exactly what we need to do. And connecting directly with the spirituality. If it exists is within us. And that’s why I say, you know, you want to go study the Koran, screw it.

I’ll give you a better place. It’s N D E R f.org. So you can go search through 3000 people that have had a near death experience. And they’re all over the board. There’s Muslims. There is Christians, there’s Jews, there’s people who are not religious, and they’re having a direct spiritual experience. That to me sounds a lot more unfiltered on uncorrupted and it’s just there.

It’s, it’s available to everyone and it’s not just indie. Of course you can do all sorts of different practices, but the point is it’s not hard to connect with God. God’s always there. The light, the lights are always on. They’re always home, you

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:38:10] know?

Khalid: [00:38:11] No, it’s not hard. It’s not hard to connect with God, but it’s also not hard to connect with.

With Satan, you know,

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:38:17] as a kind of maybe the, the, the, the person in the middle here between religiosity or not religiosity I would just say if we are presupposing a field of consciousness or, you know, existence or whatever, beyond our kind of normative senses and consciousness after death and all these things in the end, we’re positing the existence of a spirit world.

Then I think actually it’s not, I don’t think it’s a. It’s too outlandish to lay down, maybe some, and maybe this is kind of a very, just basic practical utility that, that organized religion, religious traditions serve is to kind of give you like a, a little bit of like some guide rails, if you’re going to delve into that world, because if you’re doing it completely, it’s just like, you know, we’ve done episodic, Weegee boards and seances and teenagers trying to summon the devil.

You know, when they’re teenagers,

Alex Tsakiris: [00:39:11] It’s not necessarily don’t try and summon the devil. Just, just go to the light. Love, love everyone. And you know, it’s, it’s really, isn’t that complicated and religion has, has orchestrated this idea that it, that, again, it’s intermediary that I need to be the intermediary don’t you dare, you know, don’t go out without your mask on don’t you go.

It’s kind of a version of that. It’s like, of course you need us to guide you through that realm. No, it’s, it’s all the evidence and I’m stretching the word a little bit. But again, if you look at the science of near-death experience and I’ve just interviewed two of the, Oh, gee researchers respected university of Virginia, Dr.

Bruce Grayson, and then just Eben Alexander just earlier in the week. I mean, that’s just solid science, the best, one of the top resuscitation experts in the world, you know, all of them line up and say, Hey, these people are dead. The experiences that they’re having post death are unexplainable inside of our neurological model.

I like that base of information right off the bat, because that mind trickery is out of it is out of the, out of the question. So when they come back consistently and say, this is that it isn’t that complicated. And they come back consistently overwhelmingly and say, you know, if you need, if you need a religion, if you want that, if that’s your thing great.

But there’s no such thing as it’s just not necessary. What comes through again and again?

Khalid: [00:40:41] Hmm. Well, I feel that the, for one, I think there’s always some mediation in terms of experience. I think that the reason why we have these traditional accruals of knowledge and why there even is a practice of.

Spiritual techniques or technologies of the self things like prayer, things like meditation, like why there are traditions of these things and why there are alcohol practices as well is because people have attempted to do these things. And of course, you know, what you’re saying really is also like a, well well tested an old idea, you know, if for time and Memorial people I’ve been like all this you know, all the systemization as a crude, we always need to like break away and, you know, go back to, I mean, this is for instance in Islam, you know, this is an idea as well, you know, there’s the idea of getting away from the exoteric or even there’s an elitist component where they’re like, you know, the exoteric is for people who can’t quite get it, but, you know, we’re at a different level of, of the sheer at, you know, we’re above all these things, but you know our brotherhood for whatever reason or this, you know, association.

But I, you know, I think that there, for instance any of those experiences, you know, what would you say to people who have experienced hell, like in any other experience where people who, what about the whole, like tricked by the light narrative? You know, I was recently hearing about someone who had an experience that was very, very positive, you know?

And they had been sort of welcomed by these alien beings, you know, sort of in a gray alien mold, you know, again, like like there is some consistency in these, in these experiences, but there’s also a great deal of divergence. You know, some people see cheeses, some people see this, you know but anyway, in this experience, a person had seen these gray aliens and it was a loving, peaceful experience.

But afterwards, you know, they went underwent regressing hypnosis, And they were basically prompted by the hypnotist to only experience the truth of, you know, what they had seen and then their memory changed. It became a horrifying experience where in fact, they were like, you know, violated and you know, abused by these same beings, you know, and that they’re, they, they came to view it as a screen memory what they had experienced as this beautiful experience they thought, Oh, you know, this was a false memory that had been implanted.

And the, what really happened was what I, now I’m remembering now. I just feel like there’s a lot of hairiness there. You know, it could be the other way around. It could be that end of the experience with gnosis this new memory came to the fore and the original experience was the authentic one, but there’s a lot of muddiness there.

You know, it’s very hard to really say, but that is someone’s experience of it, you know? So I think that these there’s a lot of heaviness in the near that experiences beyond, you know if people do see hell people, you know, have very doctrinaire religious experiences, you know, and some people have one, I, I

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:43:15] do, I do wonder to what extent people, like on my website, you referenced come out of some kind of religious upbringing or tradition that I’m not saying that it’s all a projection of their imagination and it’s fake or anything like that, but that perhaps the imagery, the symbolic imagery of whatever they’re seeing.

Cause you know, we’re also talking about right. I I’m presuming that. You know, that, that whole thing about DMT being released as you die and all that. I’m not, again, I’m not saying that that means that these experiences are fake or just hallucinations, but I think in general with certainly with hallucinogen drugs, that the shape of the, of the hallucinations or visions, or even beings that you might meet are sometimes to a certain extent mediated by your own kind of experience and imagination.

And it kind of would make sense, even if it was authentic that maybe it would use symbols that have meaning to you. So you know, bright, light heaven, you know, everybody knows that iconography that was raised remotely, Christian, you know, you go up, Oh, there’s clouds, there’s a bright light, you hear a voice or you, you’re going to hell in a bucket and there’s flames and it’s hot and it’s scary, you know, and things like that.

So, I mean, it just, it’s very hairy. It’s like hard to fully to confidently fully disentangle those things.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:44:35] So there’s a lot to kind of process there. I always use the term pre-scientific because the, we are not at a stage where we can start calling things scientific, but to a certain extent, you know, as soon as we get past , Materialistic science.

As soon as we get past the double slit experiment of 19, Oh, whatever we are post materialism, the double slit experiment should really be called a consciousness experiment because it shows that consciousness affects the photon pattern. And that experiment is then directly replicated by a guy named Dr.

Dean Raden who says, well, screw it. These guys are arguing over the philosophy of it. I’ll set it up modern day in the last few years with a photon beam and a person that I’m going to put in there, a meditator and say, okay, affect the photon beam. And he, you know, gets a six Sigma result that kind of once, and for all clears up any confusion about whether or not the observer effect is real.

I digress there to say that the consciousness part is really where we start. And we have to realize that once you get into that, then materialistic science, even though science, we both agree. We all agree. Science is a method, not a position statement. It is still kind of science. As we know, it is kind of a position statement that suggests that we can, the world is out there.

We can measure the world and we can somewhat control the world. And this post materialistic science suggests, well, that’s not really the case. And we can kind of shut up and calculate and pretend like the world is out there and we can build all these cool gadgets from it. But deep down, we’ve got to admit it’s not really there, but switching gears for a minute back over to near-death experience.

Harry. Yes, but everything is Harry. And this is part of the process that we go through and that I admire about the way you do it. You guys do it on subliminal jihad. And it’s what I try and do too. But it’s like, like the DMT thing. Great. DMT is the actually what’s what people are experiencing the near-death experience.

Great. Trace that down. Sam Harris is I think the guy who said it, Sam Eris is full of shit. He just is. Oh, it’s been great. It’s been studied, studied so often in soak thoroughly by near death experience researchers. These are PhD level people. These are people publish in peer reviewed journals, like the Lancet, the one of the most highly respected medical journal in the world.

And they’ve have looked for DMT in the blood samples. They’ve looked for other other chemicals, not there is a matter of fact, it kind of shows just shows just the opposite. But the important thing about that is Sam Harris is not only full of shit, but he’s actually best understood as a disinfecting agent.

Because if you look at the pushback that came when near death experiences hit, like, I don’t know, 10 years ago, it really made it big with this guy, Dr. Eben Alexander. Who’s a Harvard neurosurgeon who published this book proof of heaven because. Yeah, I just had them on earlier in the week, he got an unbelievable cultural takedown and we covered it on the show, but an unbelievable, intentional, wildly ridiculous.

You know, like Sam Harris said, well, he’s not qualified to talk on that because he is not a neuroscientist. Sam, the guy taught at Harvard medical school as a neurosurgeon. That is such an absurd statement, but people, you know, people don’t look past that. They just go, Oh, maybe he’s not, maybe he’s not qualified.

Maybe the doc anyways, it’s a cultural

thing.

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:48:15] I would agree. I would agree with that. Yeah. With Sam Harris, we’re very anti Sam Harris podcast.

Khalid: [00:48:21] Yeah. And his whole interest in like meditation, of course he’s like one of these arch, like, anti-religious polemicists but he’s also like a new age or kind of, I remember his remarks.

Like people don’t understand me because they don’t really know meditation. He’s probably, you know, Janet probably telling him what to say, you know, but anyway, yeah.

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:48:39] Yeah. He’s he came out of Stanford, right?

Alex Tsakiris: [00:48:41] I don’t know that that’s interesting. His mom

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:48:43] was a golden girls writer, I

Alex Tsakiris: [00:48:44] think. Oh yeah.

I’m sure that sounds, that sounds definitely true. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the thing I was just going to throw out, because I don’t want to do the whole NDE lecture on you guys, but this stuff has been done. So you, you, you, you all the hellish near death experiences, I’ve interviewed a couple of people. Who’ve had those kinds of experiences.

I interviewed pastor Howard storm who had one of the most horrific hellish experiences, definitely out there. Under-reported, you know, people don’t want to say they went to hell people didn’t immediately look at him and go, yeah, what did you do to go to hell? But it’s it’s there. It has to be understood in this pre-scientific how can we get their way?

But the other thing, I’d throw this out at you guys, and then I’ll leave it, leave it go. It’s another super interesting guy is Dr. Gregory Sushant. And what he did is a cross culture, cross time analysis of near-death experience. And he’s an academic Oxford connected guy. So he has to play it kind of very in a very narrow thing and has to be kind of this pseudo, you know, agnostic kind of thing.

But it’s, it’s just clear what he’s saying is that over and over again, and all these different religious traditions through like the go-to, you know, Polynesia, you know, 500 years ago accounts and then go to native Americans and go to Africans and take all these different accounts. And you see the same thing.

People are having over long periods of time. Having near death experiences in his conclusion is that all these religions uniformly are based on near death. Ex the, I should say the, after their description of the afterlife of all these religions across all these cultures are based on near death experiences.

And he even points out many cases where they had a certain set of beliefs about the afterlife and then someone within their community had a near-death experience. I go, Oh man, that that’s it. That sounds like that’s definitely it. We believe you and their beliefs changed based on that. So there’s a lot, there’s a lot there and I’m not saying that’s Terrafirma, but I’m saying we’re never going to understand Michael Aquino, unless we’re, unless we’re willing to take a couple of steps.

In that direction, you

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:51:08] know? So I agree. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You have to, you have to presuppose something out there, kind of beyond on the other side, whatever you want to call it, to be able to wrap your head. I think around somebody like Aquino or this type of these type of mystery Colts or whatnot,

Khalid: [00:51:24] you know, and just because I just, because I follow one religious tradition, it doesn’t mean that I believe that there’s no knowledge of God, like in other cultures, you know, I think that there really is something, yeah.

Again, I believe there’s an ontological reality to this stuff. And so that people are describing similar things, you know, the God that is, you know, a, her a Mazda or whatever, the, you know, high goddess where going ask her is I’m like, that is a way of talking about a lot. You know, it’s the same thing, like in Hinduism, like all these avatars and all these proliferation of things, you know maybe Krishna at one time was a prophet or something.

You know, these are representations are a way of interacting with something. I mean really like the whole idea of, perennialism or the idea of there’s something to all religions, like the notion of Abrahamic religions or of people of the book, you know, or people who have a semblance of a book like that’s an oldest lamb that concept, you know, in a way we have a is left to thank for that idea of this sort of inter compatibility.

Is this something that was recognized. Early on it on, in Islamic history that there’s a, you know, an access to this that other religions have as well. And there there’s a gradations of religious truth and that, you know, of course in various traditions within Islam, you know, there’s the idea that are, there’s a sort of the ideas of heaven and hell for instance, like Alika Sali, he was like a very famous Muslim philosopher, you know, very influential Muslim theologian who, you know, I don’t know what your listenership is like, but he just gets a bad rap in some circles.

But, you know, he said that those who pray because they fear hell, you know, or because they desire Hillary’s or, you know, the garden, like they all get that. But those of us who pray because we want to, you know, witness the face of God, like we’ll see the face of God. And that will be more beautiful than a horri by the same order of magnitude that a hoary is more beautiful than a, you know, a woman here on earth, you know at which of course is like very misogynistic, typical, you know, medieval person.

But you get the point like that there is an idea of a gradations of experience, like even within traditions themselves. So yeah, I definitely think that, you know, there is these are attempts to describe something that is simply out there and, you know, in terms of a queen, Oh yeah. Like, you know, he has a very different take on it where he’s like embracing the evil dimension, although he may not necessarily see it that way.

You know, he, he has his own kind of flexible morality, but he’s dealing in the same sphere with the same concepts. Like he understands this. Basic language that is compatible among these different. Yeah,

Alex Tsakiris: [00:53:45] I don’t think he is.

He’s dealing in a realm, one of deception, which is an intersection with your show in that I can say, or do anything because do what thou wilt is the, is the ultimate truth, you know, and I think that there’s a contrary point of view than I’m pointing to. And that I think fundamentally you are too that says no, there is a moral imperative to do good and not, and not do bad and to do bad.

And to be deceptive is out of align with what, for lack of a better term, you know, God’s spirit, the light, whatever it’s out of sync it’s ignorance. What the Buddhist call ignorance of the true what’s really going on.

Khalid: [00:54:27] Yes. I agree with that. Yeah. I think that, what I mean to say is that he’s using the same terms.

He’s acting within the same basic language, like invoking Satan and aligning himself with that. He’s saying that he’s an opposition to those things, but that is still within the same, like conceptual universe. You know, he’s not saying that like, something completely turned on its head, like yeah, he uses the seat and like maybe he uses these language, these terms in deceitful ways.

But if you approach it, like you can understand it through this. These, these languages, these concepts, you know, and he uses them himself, you know yeah, like something that I actually did. I infiltrated the temple of said, you know, I’ve read like there no documentaries. I love that. I love that.

So yeah, like and a lot of it is, I mean, they have their own reading lists and things like that. And they’ll refer you to. You know what they encourage their members to read, like our things, you know, they urge people to read things written by Christian theologians, like something that we talked about on our, our episode about dog, man, that will be out soon, you know, the, the book of werewolves and they have a whole reading list of Al werewolves, of course, a topic that’s of great interest to Satanists and in general, but especially to those who have a sympathy with the SS or whatever, you know?

So you know, he would recommend these really just attacks about wearables. So these things, the whole idea of we’re going to take as our emblem, the symbol of, of evil in the Christian tradition, you know, we’re going to commune with the devil, you know, that is something that is based on.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:55:52] It’s the inversion playbook.

It’s Sabatini and Frankish, you know redemption through sin, right? It’s, let’s do the cause. Hey, I can look right in my scriptures and it says, you know, he’s going to come. The redemption will come when everyone is good or everyone is bad. Well, we’ve tried everyone around being good that ain’t working.

Let’s all just be bad because that’ll bring about the second coming. You know,

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:56:16] it’s like, accelerationism for, you know, it’s like a spiritual accelerationism

Alex Tsakiris: [00:56:22] I inversion it’s always a deceptive in version and it’s such a low level, simple play, but it does seem to attract a lot of people. It

Dimitri Poshlost: [00:56:31] does. And I see it seeping into the groundwater of our culture increasingly, which does alarm me.

And, you know, I was raised Catholic, but I don’t, I wouldn’t. I would say my, my sort of relationship with is like ambivalent and ambiguous or whatever, but I would say I’m, I’m like theistic. So let’s say I’m not an atheist, but I noticed that. And it’s interesting, you brought up Sam Harris because he embodied this kind of, you know, we make fun of it a lot on the podcast.

People like bill Maher and Sam Harris, you know, talking about people being religious and how, you know, flying spaghetti monsters, but it was all based in this kind of scientistic kind of thinking that was very just Anton basically denying spirit, the spiritual universe that, that we’ve been discussing.

And it just doesn’t exist. That’s ridiculous. Shut up. You’re dumb. You’re superstitious. But now I think as that has kind of, I feel like that’s petering out a little bit in the culture that kind of scientistic atheism or having a rough ride because things are so insane and so chaotic and there’s so much madness going on and maybe people are in some way, a little more drawn to some kind of spiritual explanation, but now you’re seeing things where like the amount of satanic imagery and like pop culture.

We talk about it a lot and like music videos, like demonic, M K O ultra satanic type imagery, you know, or like twerking on Satan literally is now being held up as like this really cool. Just like even just, just kind of a bland, like progressive, cool thing, but it’s not very different in my mind from something like the satanic temple or the church of Satan.

Embracing the sigil of Baphomet, which is the quintessential embodiment, you know, symbol of evil in the Christian tradition, which is the kind of the dominant majority tradition in Western society. So it’s, there’s a sense of, you know, what you’re doing, you know, what that represents, and regardless of whether or not, even if you, even, if you accept a totally atheistic view of the world that still represents something that is Mo most people would commonly agree, represents evil values.

You know, the, the person who is the opposite of Jesus Christ do again, it’s like, even if you don’t, if you just think it’s a fairy tale, Jesus exemplified a lot of virtues that like the majority of humanity will think are positive virtues to model. Whereas Satan is all about deception, lies, power, greed, everything else.

And you know, this isn’t America on top of that, a place where we already have a bit of a spiritual problem with greed, power, genocide, imperialism, et cetera, and business, and just getting more and more and more, you know, down to, you know, it’s like a root of our kind of Capitalistic Protestant work ethic spirituality.

So, you know, throwing Satan to the mix to turbo boost our consumerist hyper materialist kind of empty secular culture seems, you know, it’s like, I, I stop and take notice when that happens. And I think that, yeah, it’s a play and I think it has an impact. Even if people, you know, what you hear nowadays is like, well, you know, the satanic temple just says that, you know, they they’re just atheists.

They’re just doing it to rile up the Christians. But, you know, I just kind of fundamentally don’t accept that as like an explanation. I mean, sure. Maybe if that, if that’s what you think it is, but it you’re still use it. You’re weaponizing a symbol. That most people believe represents evil. It’s like same thing with like flying a swastika or an SS banner, you know, just say, Oh, it looks cool.

It doesn’t really mean I’m a Nazi,

Khalid: [01:00:00] you know, I’m doing it ironically, you know? Yeah. I think at this part of the whole, you know, the old cliche about like the greatest wicked devil ever played is in some ways true. You know, it speaks to, I think the larger point of like the illiteracy about symbols and the you know, illiteracy about different understandings of these figures of religious ideas and also of history.

And I think that, you know, for instance, you mentioned the working on the devil, you know, this is a huge flashpoint are culturally a huge controversy over a Lil NAS X video. We’ll look to the devil in it. And you know, this is a huge thing where people were upset at the suggestion of a giving state and the lap dance and things like that.

And you know, other people were saying like, how. You know, can you be upset? You know, this is all symbology. This is all metaphor and something, a common point that people made vis-a-vis the video was that, well, you know, look at the ending, you know, a little non-sex actually, he’s using his sexuality to seduce a devil, but in the end he kills the devil and then he puts a devil swans on himself.

So really he’s killing Satan. Isn’t that good? And it’s like, well, you know, if you think about what these people like, Michael Aquino, for instance, what they really believe like that actually matches up perfectly with their ideas about how their relationship with these entities work. You know, they, of course, no one is ever going to do like, no one’s ever going to sign on to like the Christian idea of a deal with the devil like that people will warn you about, you know, like what the devil came to you and said, you’re going to be my slave and you’re going to do my will.

And then you’re going to burn forever. You know, no one would take that deal, probably, you know, it’s because they think that they have a loophole, they always have a way out, you know, and oftentimes it’s because they can ascend themselves. They can become, you know, the dark Prince or, you know, the God unto themselves.

That’s exactly what set pianism teaches. Like, you know, there’s a vulgar, more secularized version of that. And the church of Satan, and then even further, more secularized version of that and the satanic temple, where you have the idea that there, you know, you can yourself, it’s all about the placement of the South, into the Ascension of the South, the Godhead of the jewel.

Yeah, exactly. They think that they’re not going to be accountable because. They will you know, find a loophole that they will become, they will become set set is within

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:02:14] that. Yeah. And we’re on the verge of this kind of new frontier where I think even people like Sam Harris have talked about, you know, the, the, the rumblings around trans humanism are, have him picking up for, you know, a couple of decades now.

And clearly these psychos, like like Jeffrey Epstein and his best friend, bill Gates are pretty interested in life extension technology.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:02:38] Okay. Full pause. Cause you guys dropped a truth bomb on me and we got it to Jeffrey Epstein. What’s that really all about Jeffrey Epstein, gifted children.

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:02:51] We’re still looking into that. That was a, that was a lead that our buddy Jimmy Fallon gong discovered. And yeah, we, we talked about that with him. I think we’re still digging into it cause we’re still finding more and more. Yeah.

Khalid: [01:03:06] This is a big, yeah. An interesting, very interesting angle on this is Jeffrey Epstein’s.

Life has a gifted child, you know, and Jimmy, what he did was draw like a very interesting connection between him and figures like Jack Sarfatti and what Lee striver, who you actually had in your show. I mean, what we strive for is actual life. You know, it’s a bit muddy, like one doesn’t quite know, but the theme in his putatively autobiographical work of like a secret school involving communion with ITI entities.

And the description by jacks are Fati and Daniel Sheehan of getting this call on the God phone. And what we did in our episode dealing with this topic with Jimmy was we kind of brought this idea through the, the discussion of the sort of idea of gifted children, Jeffrey Epstein’s past, and you know, being involved in gifted children programs and Walter brain, you know, it was another big figure in the development of those programs, the United States and

Alex Tsakiris: [01:03:58] who is a convicted pedophile at the same time

and a poster child too. Has the look, Hey, but you guys mentioned a Strieber Whitley Strieber. Did, did you know about his gifted children participation that MK ultra program when he was like seven or nine years old? Yeah.

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:04:19] Yeah. Well,

Khalid: [01:04:20] in his book he describes a secret school, you know, in fact it’s more, according to him.

You know, it’s a, it’s more than that, you know, it’s not only that he was part of like a government secret school program it’s that he, you know, of course later in life, ladies scraper maintains that he was a victim of alien abduction repeatedly. And

Alex Tsakiris: [01:04:39] cause I interviewed him, I interviewed him on this and we specifically talked about that because I was very interested in the MK ultra program.

And you guys are so up to speed on this and we can go there and I want to go there, but people don’t understand how extensive it was. You know, when people go Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber ha no, that’s just the

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:04:59] child. If you think about it, exactly went there at 16. So I don’t think he got picked to go into that study.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:05:06] And so I’m totally down with that. You guys were saying Henry Murray, you know, is the Dr. Henry Murray at at Harvard, you know, picks out a guy like Ted Kaczynski. It is, there’s absolutely completely solid evidence that they’re doing this all over the place and they’re doing it. And then I interviewed another guy and I won’t even mention his name, but he’s a podcaster.

And he tells me, you know, I’m telling the story about Whitley Strieber. He goes, yeah. When I was in kindergarten, I was a gift to chopper. I’m like a whoop stop. Tell me he goes real weirdest thing. The weirdest thing, we just went in this room and all day we just memorize cards. We just tried to memorize these cards.

And it’s like, we will never know the extent to which these guys did these programs, some of which sound incredibly benign like that one. And the one that Whitley was in, I

Khalid: [01:05:54] probably did have to do with psychic abilities that probably by memorizing cards event, that they tried to predict the shape on cards.

That’s seeing them, you know, aye, aye.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:06:04] And you could get there, right? You could get there a whole bunch of different ways, collared. Right? You could just have people memorize information. And that could be a pre-screening to whether they go to the next thing, but back to Whitley. Because when I interviewed Whitley, I asked him specifically about this.

And you can hear his voice and you hear him hit him struggling with this. And he struggled with it, a great deal in terms of trying to resolve it back in his life. But the full story is he’s like, I don’t know, nine years old. And his dad is a military intelligence by the way. And they come knocking on the door and they say, Hey, you know, we’ve got a special program for gifted children.

It’s down at the air force base here in San Antonio. And Whitley like barely remembers it, but he remembers going in a Faraday cage. He remembers them mutilating animals and doing this other stuff. He doesn’t remember all of it, but what he remembers are a couple of things after that, mom and sister, that he get dressed up in his Sunday morning to go in his Sunday best to go to school.

And he was like, went up on the roof to try and hide, to get away from these guys. And he suggests that the only way he got out of it is that he got quote, unquote sick and got sent to the hospital. Probably, you know, your body reacts to that. Cause I got to get it, find a way out of here. He goes to the hospital and his mother comes there and they eventually pull him out of the program.

But he says in trying to recollect what really happened because I Whitley is trying to understand this. I get the sense that he is an honest broker. He just has this fragmented, shattered. Disassociative identity created memory of what’s going on, but he said, look, the fucking kid across the street. I know he was there with me.

When that kid came back, he was shattered. He never left the house. He was 50 years old. He had never left the house virtually and died, you know, in his room. And I talked to another kid down the street, who they put them in, they went to put them in the program and the parents said, Hey, wait a minute. This doesn’t sound right.

We’re not doing it. But he was able to confirm through talking to some of his other childhood friends that it wasn’t made up, that there definitely was such a program. And, you know, it’s, don’t look so good.

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:08:24] Yeah, no, it’s not. It’s a really kind of it, it, I think it’s almost kind of a conceptual breakthrough across the board with a lot of conspiracy topics that we’ve covered this idea of, like, I just never really thought about the gifted children program, even though we had talked all about, you know, the rumored project Monarch and you know, the Fritz spring Myers stuff about, Oh, you gotta do these terrible things to like small children before they’re six to induce, you know, dissociative identity disorder.

We talked about hypnotism and George, Estabrooks talking about the importance and Milton Erickson talking about the importance of how you can hypnotically induce multiple personalities. But then the gifted child thing was like, Oh my God. And then. When I started thinking back on it, we had already done some digging into other characters that actually do have this, you know, it’s not just a Sarfatti and Epstein we’re still, you know, nailing down.

But Michael , for example, I don’t know if he specifically looked at the child, but his mother was totally

Khalid: [01:09:22] tell that story.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:09:23] Guys, tell that story about, about his mother and about his grandfather and about his whole family. Cause it’s another one of these. It does the total flip in. You’re like, Oh my God, I hate this guy.

I hate this guy. Oh my God. I feel so sorry for this guy.

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:09:37] Yeah. Did he realize that he had to have been born into something weird because, okay, so just the, this is stuff that we dug up when we were researching our very first Aquino episodes, like number three and four. And what I was able to find mostly through Amazon book descriptions that Aquino himself had published, including a book of his mom’s poetry and a bunch of other stuff.

Yeah. Pegasus pin feathers. Yeah. In feathers. I discovered that, yeah. You know, his mother Betty who went by Betty Ford, Aquino was kind of a girl from a well-off family, well off San Francisco family. And I also, I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area. So all this like hits close. Like I I’m fascinated by, I never understood kind of this world of like old San Francisco, like robber, Baron society and stuff.

And, but I realized, and I never thought that a queen would be kind of grew up in the center of it, but basically. His mother was born in San Francisco, like the beginning of the century. And she was identified at a young age as being an extremely gifted child prodigy. And so her parents sent her to Stanford university as part of an experimental gifted child, kind of both a study and a program.

And it was run by a psychologist named Dr. Lewis Terman, who was an extremely prominent. Psychologists in the early 20th century, also one of the most prominent eugenicists in the United States at that time, like a further eugenesis and supported California’s like forced sterilization program, all of his work.

Khalid: [01:11:13] Yeah. All of his work with gifted children was inflected heavily by his interest in this. And trying to understand, you know, what traces are more intelligent, things like that.

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:11:20] Yeah, exactly. So she, you know, she went through this program then kind of like Ted Kaczynski, you know, I think at 15 or 16, she enrolled in Stanford and then graduated.

And then after she left Stanford, I believe this was in the early 1930s. She spent a number of years in Nazi Germany, studying sculpture with a famous sculptor named George COBA and Aquino. In some Google groups, threads are used net threads back in the day, told some very weird stories about how his grandmother and his mother were in a, in a restaurant in Berlin, one time in the thirties and the thirties.

And there was, there was a boisterous group of snappily dressed, uniformed men, you know, causing a ruckus and his grandmother who is a very, you know, San Francisco got up and told them to cut it out. And the head of the table, you know, apologize profusely. And it turned out it was Adolf Hitler. And you know, he just thought that was it.

Khalid: [01:12:16] But grandma didn’t recognize him because she, she found politics. Volker.

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:12:21] Yeah, he, he, I still. I believe that his grandmother’s name was was her maiden name was Sophie Johnson. Now there was a Sophie Johnson Vanderbilt for the 19th century. I don’t know if she was named kind of in reference to that, or I don’t know her queen or called her a grand Dom of the Stanford Crocker era of San Francisco, but yet I can’t find, I can’t trace her family.

But anyways, so, you know, she was in Nazi Germany throughout most of the 1930s. There were some rumors that she had an affair with an SS officer at one point 1934. Yeah. Queen knows mother. And then the other thing discovered, well, there’s two things about his grandfather who was a surgeon, a prominent surgeon, Dr.

Campbell Ford, that really made my head spin that I’ve found, you know, on newspapers.com. The first one was from, I believe it was from the San Francisco examiner in 1894. And it was an article about how a prominent doctor, Dr. Campbell Ford, Michael Coquina, his grandfather had been arrested in San Francisco for allegedly attempting to steal a baby.

Like he was running around with a baby that wasn’t his normal really weird. Yeah. So bizarre. Because especially because then if you know about the Presidio abuse scale, like a

Khalid: [01:13:39] hundred years later yeah, his story was like a random person just like drop the baby in his lap or something. Right. Like he was just like, someone came up to me and like gave me this baby.

And I was like, Oh, well, somebody

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:13:50] like a saloon owner gave him a baby. Maybe there’s an implication that it was sort of somebody had a baby out of wedlock and then they just, they showed, they just gave it to him for some reason to go and give it to Foundling place or an orphanage. But he had hired like a, a stagecoach, you know a buggy, you know, a cabbie, whatever to like ride him around San Francisco with this baby.

And the cabbie story contradicted, the grandfather’s story Campbell Ford’s story, you know, Campbell Ford said that he was attending to the birth in a saloon of this baby. And then like, they gave him the baby and he went and tried to find it a home. But the, the cabbie said that he just hired him. They pulled up through a saloon, somebody walked out and just handed him a baby.

And then he’s like go around town and started going to different places around town. Apparently try. I don’t know if it’s like he was trying to sell it or something. It was very, very bizarre. And that was like on the front page of the San Francisco examiner in 1894. And then the other big thing about Campbell Ford, who was I think in three different frame free Masonic.

Lodges, by the way including Knights Templar, Commanderie the Mount Moriah lodge number 44. He died in 1934 by slitting his own throat with a straight razor and some newspapers. It was reported actually in a bunch of different newspapers that some of them implied that it was kind of an accident while he was shaving.

Other ones said a presumed suicide. And then other ones noted, ironically that Ms. Dr. Ford was somewhat famous in the medical community for inventing a type of stooge, a type of suture known as the Ford stitch. So there’s almost, I think it’s called it pointed out. In that episode, there’s like a weird, like satanic irony of the doctor who invented this famous stitch ends up slicing his own throat open.

And by the way, in the, the big spooky house on Leavenworth street in San Francisco, that Michael equina would end up living in, in the 1980s like that he both grew up in and ended up inheriting until he died in 2019. And also that, that is the house where the children who accused him and Presidio said they were taken to, which had all these weird rooms.

That’s where they, you know, that’s where the police raided his home was that exact same home where his grandfather slid his own throat in 1934.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:16:07] And Dimitri, just to add, maybe you want to add to that. I mean, what we have to say, you know, allege it and this and that, but anyone who just does a kind of cursory examination of the evidence against him for pedophilia and his wife of being part of it.

It’s, it’s so overwhelming. And I mean, it’s just, it’s overwhelming evidence. I mean, he did all that stuff.

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:16:29] I would agree. Yeah, I would agree. And then the fact that the daycare center, the Presidio was burnt down twice, or there were two attempts to burn it down the wall. This kind of process was a while this trial process was was playing itself out.

And then the second time, I believe that when they successfully burned it down, it was on the night of the autumnal Equinox. So, you know, I mean kind of interesting. And then, you know, all these things were dropped, but also the army refused. I remember finding a kind of a lawsuit judgment or something. I think it was like from the armies, you know, legal division, basically refusing a quinone request to completely expunge the Presidio stuff from his record, which is interesting.

So this army itself kind of, you know, they ended up saying that well, Oh, there’s not evidence. Kurt, Lieutenant Colonel equina was cleared, but then Aquino in his classic litigious way went. And it’s like, I want every single reference to, you know, any kind of investigation against me, blah, blah, blah, and everything like that to be completely wiped off the record.

And I remember in that summary, they said, well, we’re not going to do it because some of your, like your alibis were not corroborate, stubble or convincing. I think that they literally said not convincing. So, you know, army of course, they’re going to cover up for him and, you know, God knows how deep that goes, but it did seem to kind of stop his career.

I don’t know if he would have gone on, maybe he’s kind of like Jim Channon and some of these other kind of weird. Men who stare at goats kind of army officers where they would top out at kernel. But, you know, he also was going to like, you know, all these like national defense colleges and stuff he was working on, he was a, you know, an attache for NATO in the early eighties, like the absolute peak of, you know, the cold war, you know, star Wars kind of drama going on and was, you know, doing SS dagger rituals and Himmler’s castle.

So the

Alex Tsakiris: [01:18:27] other, the only other thing could to cover that I’d love for you to cover, if you can, to kind of wrap up the acquaint. Oh, is that how we say it?

So tie for people back, because this is like. For a lot of us, this is the most super scary part of it is the legitimacy he has inside the military community as a sought after expert. Like, Oh, don’t worry about all of that.

He can help us work on this mind control kind of stuff that we’re really interested in. And so grab him, let’s

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:19:01] use it.

Khalid: [01:19:02] Yeah. High up. He was like the CYA person, you know, he wrote for like in the recent yeah. Documentary that HBO put out about Q and a and, you know, they highlighted John Paul Valley for his you know, work on ops and they were kind of trying to connect him to that, but they glossed over, you know, a clean nose authorship of the mind war memo for him, this famous white paper that a queen of road, which the concept of mind war, which you would develop later on, you know, it has to do basically with the idea of sort of convincing your enemy to work with you, to fight the mind war against the mutually shared problem.

One of the, one of my favorite anecdotes about Michael Aquino is that he wrote like an alternate history novel where the Nazis instead of like committing a genocide, they just use mind war to peacefully win world war II. You know? So it’s all about like using the sword. Yeah. It’s probably break the sword, but yeah, he Well, you cut his teeth in Vietnam.

I mean, doing this very, very spooky operation called out wandering soul. He developed these recordings known as ghost tape. Number 10, you can, you can listen to online is the most famous one that goes type number 10. And basically what they would do is they would play out of helicopters or from backpacks of soldiers, these sort of eerie sounds and, and wailings, you know, and the idea was to sort of play off the, and there were many things like this, you know we talked in our episode on the moth man about the OSS Wang related OSI outset took place in the Philippines.

But yeah, basically the the, the idea of this was to sort of suggest and to play off the, what they imagined as being the Vietnamese belief and wandering ghosts and spirits. And the idea that if you died far away from your Homeland, that you would be doomed to wander the earth forever. So they would play these spooky whales with this man kind of camping and Vietnamese about how he died far away from his home and, you know, give up brothers, you know, go home.

It’s not too late. You know, if you die fighting the Americans, you know, you will Like, you know, you’ll end up , you know, just, you know, moaning apparently, you know, what, what often happened was that people hearing this would just get infuriated and returned fire, but you know yeah, exactly what often reveal their positions.

So I guess maybe it was a qualified success. .

Alex Tsakiris: [01:21:15] Isn’t that the really tricky part of it though, that that is so hard to process is like, how do we really feel about that? You know, because on the first level you go, Oh my God, he’s horrible. This and that.

And then you’re like, wait a minute. How do I really feel about that in a quote unquote war situation as if that was, you know, some kind of war or some kind of defense the United States, or, but we could get into that, but it’s like, we do have this different kind of sensibility that there are situations where we have to win and we’re going to kind of make that moral high level decision.

And then how we implemented it, we’re really give ourselves a lot of leeway. So isn’t that really another place where kind of were struggling with Terra firma, where the rubber meets the road kind of thing. I mean, how do we don’t we don’t, we want to do don’t. We want to hire Allister Crowley to do, to see if he can influence the Nazis to fly over

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:22:06] and we can capture Rudolph.

No. I mean, they didn’t do that. Right. Readings or something like that. Like didn’t he feed his Hitler’s astrologer bad readings or something like that. Yeah.

Khalid: [01:22:18] That is a rumor, but yeah, I mean, they’re like maybe, you know, there’s all these myths of like are called circles operating, like within the intelligence world in world war II.

But. I mean the Vietnam war. I think Dimitri now what a group is not like a moral war to begin with on the part of the United States. So like, and I also feel that he is this is all part of a larger complex, which is very cynical and often, you know, again, like just infuriating and insulting to the people who are targeted by it, which is to sort of, it has that same sort of smearing.

It’s very Sam Harris had the sneering thing where it’s like, Oh, we can manipulate these savages beliefs. You know, we can you know, invade their, their psyches and, and use their, their views against them. And then this way, you know? Yeah. I mean, cool. Also, we, it, it goes hand in hand with the violence of the war,

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:23:05] even to bring it up to the eighties, to the, to Michael queen was very odd performances on Oprah and the, for all those show, when he went on to, you know, basically defend the temple of set and satanic practices and stuff during the height of the so-called satanic panic, you could almost see a parallel between operation wandering soul and what he was doing there because he was going on TV in such a provocative way where it’s like, he knew what he was doing.

He knew he was going to basically trigger all of the kind of conservative Christian types that were being terrified by what Oprah and roll though. And all these others people were saying about how there’s these evil cults, but then he was also sitting there and going like, that is actually not true. I am, you know, I might have devil eyebrows and have this like, you know like very witchy wife and stuff and seem very sinister, but you know, actually there’s nothing to see here.

It almost like it in the sense of the real goal of the recording of wandering soul was to get the Vietcong soldiers, to rev, to get angry and reveal their position and expose themselves. And it was, it was all about eliciting, a psychological reaction. That was actually not exactly what the kind of extensible goal of, of the operate of the PSYOP.

You know, the goal was to prey upon their religious superstitions, but what it really was more is to get them. To show themselves and, you know, basically rile them up. And so much of PSYOPs, you can see it today with like with Q Anon and all that other stuff. There are things that are so tailor made to almost just like get people fired up and crazy and then react towards something.

And often it’s done in a kind of very sophisticated way where, you know, I think there were levels to like what Michael Aquino was doing both in the Phoenix program, whatever in Vietnam and going on, you know, TV in the eighties, trying to defend himself, but doing it in this way where it’s like, look, how much of a black magician I am know.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:25:02] I think that’s totally brilliant. And you guys are to be congratulated for kind of seeing that. Cause I remember when you mentioned it and it is such a great insight is that if I can get you to emotionally engage with me and I’m controlling the topic, then I’m going to win. You know, it’s like, I’m going to drag you into the gutter and we’re going to both get dirty.

But at the end of the day, we’re going to look like equals in some way. And that just when I’m in such an adverse position, that adversarial position that can do nothing, but help

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:25:31] me.

Khalid: [01:25:32] It’s interesting that you mentioned that because that’s what his mother would go a lot to do when she founded or helped to found a KPFA, the radio station, which had it.

I was just going to say very, very similar to their sort of framing where they would always, they would have people of all different beliefs on, but they, it would always end up. Affirming whatever their views were because they would be setting the questions, you know, so that the bait could be about whatever it could have.

Like, you know, the John Birch society, it could have like malice, you know, debating each other, but ultimately the end of the day, KPFA will be deciding the terms of the vape. And so they would always when the epistemological battle yeah. And, you know, they were committed to a pacifism, which of course sounds good.

But you know, it came out of the mill yell of like, not wanting to fight world war II. So there was definitely like a complex element in, in that type of pacifism. Maybe his mother represented.

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:26:23] That’s the other thing that that we didn’t get, we, you know, we’ve done further research. We have an episode on KPFA hopefully coming out in the next week or so on On the Patrion feed, but we did some deeper diving into that.

And that was something that really jumped out when I was researching Aquino’s mom last year is that he claimed that she was instrumental. She basically co-founded the Pacifica foundation and KPFA radio. And I mean, are you familiar with Pacifica radio KPFA KPF? K?

Alex Tsakiris: [01:26:53] I’m not, but I can only imagine.

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:26:57] Yeah. I mean, have you ever seen democracy now Goodman, but that’s that specific, that specific radio and that’s kind of like their flagship, but they were one of the first listener supported alternative public radio stations started in Berkeley in the late 1940s, and then it expanded to Los Angeles and the New York.

And it’s still around today and kind of various forms. And the S seeing that Michael Aquino’s mother cause, you know, I grew up in the Bay area and I remember KPFA is a very granola hippie. Lefty pacifist kind of radio station. Like it it’s totally identified with like the sixties, California sort of counter-culture and is definitely situated on the left, you know?

And so that’s always what I knew about it kind of growing up and yeah, if you watch, you know, democracy now, Oh, they’re talking about the green party and you know, they’re criticizing the us for doing, you know, bombing people overseas and things like that. But the fact that a queen, his mother was right there at the very beginning of it and like call it said was in this milieu of pacifist.

Now the ones that I think who is it? Louis Hill was the main founder. He was the nephew of Frank Phillips who was a, an oil Baron who, you know, if you know, ConocoPhillips the oil company or Phillips 66, you know, the gas station. Sure. That’s, he’s the nephew of that guy. So these guys come from kind of a high bourgeoisie Rob, like Western robber, Baron kind of background and stuff.

And so I think he met Reno’s mom at Stanford. And then, you know, he was a conscientious objector in world war two. I, I wouldn’t say I don’t. I genuinely think he really did believe in passivism and like wasn’t a secret Nazi sympathizer, but Aquino’s mom, on the other hand, she spent the bulk of the 1930s in Nazi Germany.

And didn’t really ever nothing we’ve found indicates that she had too many bad things to say about it. And then she has this son who becomes goes into the military and becomes a PSYOP guy, grew requests to go to Vietnam and probably loved being involved in the Phoenix program, joins the church of Satan.

The temple of set his mom joined the temple of set after he founded it. Right. And stuff. And so it really made our heads spin of like how, like, cause she was involved. She did a radio show on KPFA for years, like a book report. He claims that she was the first one to introduce the novel, the Boris Pasternak, novel doctors Jovago to American audiences after it was translated into English.

And you know, you can go on ca.gov and see that the whole operation around doctors Jovago was like the CIA was heavily invested in both popularizing it in the West and getting prints of it done in Europe, in Russian to smuggle back into the Soviet union. So it was like a cold war PSYOP. And the queen says she was the first one to do a review of it, like right when it was published and quote unquote, introduce it to American audiences.

So there’s that. But it’s like, you know, she’s hanging out with all these lefty hippy Bay area people, and then she didn’t, she seemed to be totally cool with her son joining the military at the height of the Vietnam war and go in like, you know what I mean? Like there’s something off there. It doesn’t make any sense.

Now KPF, they also started getting money from the Ford foundation, no relation, by the way, Betty Ford. She’s not one of those Fords, but the Ford foundation I think it went, it might’ve been under the control of McGeorge Bundy, you know, in a bun and maybe Richard Bissell, you know, guys who were involved in Bay of pigs and.

You know, what architects of the Vietnam war itself were funding this lefty alternative radio station in the Bay area. And that’s something, you know, we’ve talked about in a lot of different contexts, like the covert funding, like you said, with Gloria Steinem in CIA, like the funding of the counterculture.

Not like not just the subversion of it, but sometimes creating entities out of whole cloth or, you know, basically sponsoring things that are so heavily infiltrated that they end up serving the kind of overall ideological purposes of kind of the, the U S empire, if you will, in, it’s like kind of cold war objectives.

And oftentimes it’s very subtle, you know, it’s not like, you know, they did have John Birch society, people in Maoists and sometimes communists on, but they’re, you know, the, the way it was framed was in such a way that I assume if it was really politically or epistemologically threatening to the U S ruling class and the Ford foundation wouldn’t have given it millions of dollars, you know?

Khalid: [01:31:20] Yeah. They also funded a Kenneth anger a satanic dabbler, but yeah, and you know, people sometimes will say like, Oh, you know, what is the significance of. Doing genealogy. You know, everyone has like a suspicious family. I mean, like we know himself as suspicious, so you don’t really even need to go to his family, but you know, it does, they’re mentioning that he would characterize himself, you know, in these terms, I remember one of my favorite things that he’s, he said that someone else pointed out to us was that he described himself as being born with, you know, a whirl of a swastika of hair on his chest, you know, and his eyebrows, I was naturally tilted up in this satanic way, you know, and I, incidentally I was born, you know, only nine months after a certain ritual was performed, you know, by Jack Parsons, you know?

Yeah. He basically had depicted himself as being like a moon child produced by like the Babylon working or sort of antichrist rituals. So, you know, the idea of implicating his mother and office is something that originates with him.

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:32:18] You know, also just to throw in, we also found, I think in an interview, you know, it was kind of, not a lot about her religion or, you know, what kind of church or faith she belonged to, except for, of course that she joined the temple of set in the seventies.

But before that, he did mention that when she ran off and kind of got married to a Quinonez, you know, putative father Michael Aquino’s senior, right at the end of, I think right at the end of world war two, that they needed to find a church to go get married in. And she didn’t belong to a church, which I think in early 20th century, America is interesting in and of itself.

But then she finally picked a Swedenborg in church because its doctrines were the least repulsive to her. Yeah. Yeah. I’m still looking more into Swedenborg and stuff, but that’s very

Khalid: [01:33:09] SaaS history and a huge free Masonic connection to the history of Swedenborg aneurysm. So yeah, that is that stuck out to me as an interesting choice when you mentioned it way back when, and I thought that might not have been

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:33:19] random.

Definitely. She was a sweetened

Khalid: [01:33:22] Porgy and maybe as something, you know, or at least had an affinity with them and they haven’t offended, you know, of the stock trends they have like, you know, that Swedenborg came out originally out of sort of like a free Masonic mill yell or it was very connected with the revival of Freemasonry, but yeah, it is it’s very, it’s very, it’s very interesting.

Good action.

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:33:41] Yeah.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:33:42] There’s one topic I really wanted to dive into. There’s like. Multiple multiple connections with the work that you’ve done. Again, check out subliminals jihad and you’re kind of getting a sense for how these guys go at it and the connections that they’ll link that you never knew were there.

And what, what was that?

Khalid: [01:34:04] Yeah, the world. Yeah. He said that the Buddha and also, I think Crawley had it, but this swastika, the world’s swastika of hair on his chest. Yeah,

Alex Tsakiris: [01:34:14] because the topic I want to try and wait into and we won’t really have time to cover it hardly at all, but is the UFO ITI thing and maybe one way to get there is Danny Sheehan.

Because I just interviewed Ralph Blumenthal who wrote a book autobiography of John Mac. You guys know who John

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:34:37] Mack? Yeah. I listened to it from

Khalid: [01:34:40] Barbara and yeah, I remember reading his book way, way back in high school. Yeah. Cause he was the preeminent, like, you know, abduction guy, if we don’t have the credentials, you know, the series.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:34:50] Yeah. Yeah. I’ve had the credentials. So you know, Th th there, there had been this thing where abduction was all in the air and Budd Hopkins and David Jacobs are really the guy who were making guys who were making all the noise about abduction.

And then John Mack, who is superstar Harvard psychiatrist. I mean like illegally Pulitzer prize winner, he thinks he can do anything. So he just kind of is rubbing shoulders with bud Hopkins. Cause he’s our connection, , Colin he’s kind of an esteemed artist in Manhattan, but Hopkins is so he’s like, Hey, let’s go see what this guy is up to.

I think it’s all bullshit. But then he becomes, Oh my God, if this is real, I have to know. And I’m John Mack, I can know anything. And he starts interviewing people and he says, this is real. He says, as all my training. As a psychiatrist leads me to believe that this is real. They’re not hallucinating by an, and that’s what I’m trained to do.

That’s what I do. I tell if people are having hallucinations or delusions or anything like that, they’re people it’s not cultural. There’s I have a two year old that says she saw the thing come in the room and this and that. I have people who are paraplegic, who can’t move, who have marks on their body.

He goes everything, my training and my common sense tells me that these accounts are real, right? So that is who John Mack is. And he gets in all sorts of trouble at Harvard, which again, he’s kind of a naive guy, which is surprising, but he kind of has this, you know, he’s kind of a rich kid trust fund, Jewish elitist, East coast, kind of, and he’s kind of naive.

And he just thinks, Oh, well this will be great. And then Harvard is going to sack him, you know, and they call him in for this kind of inquisition kind of thing. And he’s stumbles out of it. And he doesn’t know what he does. He doesn’t know what to do. And he’s like calling up Whitley Strieber and he goes, Hey, man, I think this is over, you know, I could lose everything.

And who comes to the rescue? Danny Sheehan, Danny Shan comes and he represents him. Danny Sheehan, along with who you guys, you always say Danny Sheehan Jesuit

Khalid: [01:37:04] the Christic Institute was his thing that he founded was originally like giving Iran, contract defense, you know, defending Iran, Contra accuser, the whistleblowers, but he kind of blew it up by getting mired in like stuff.

You know,

Alex Tsakiris: [01:37:19] you guys have an incredible show on that, that I, I can’t quite process that all the way. Like, I don’t know, cause that could flip either way and she didn’t shows up in a bunch of other different places, but it is interesting. And I actually asked, you know, Ralph Blumenthal, the guy who wrote the book and he’s a veteran New York times journalists, but there’s another quick story I want to say about Blumenthal, but back to back to Mac for a minute, his co attorney on this is the guy from a spotlight, the guy who I forget his name now, but the guy who defend

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:37:53] abroad,

Alex Tsakiris: [01:37:53] Rick MacLeish, is he the guy who prosecuted the priests in Boston?

Yes.

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:37:58] Yes it is.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:37:59] Yeah. So, so that’s what a strange mix there to have to.

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:38:07] Do you want it? I don’t know. I don’t know if you’re aware of this. Do you want to, do you want it to get even weirder because I’m reading right now that he was supported, John Mac was financially or his nonprofit was supported for four years at a cost of $250,000 per year by the re-incarnated emperor of Atlantis Laurance Rockefeller,

Khalid: [01:38:28] right?

Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, he was told, I guess, during allegedly we’ve heard that he was told I’d excellent Institute by the nine sort of famous channeled entities who ran Aslan for awhile. You know, that he was a reincarnation of a napper of Atlanta. So that’s why we refer to Nelson Rockefeller by, by that title.

But yeah. It’s you know this is something that’s very interesting to me, you know, not to, I know I haven’t listened to your show with what we strive for, but I’m interested to do so, but it’s something that it was very interesting to me and sort of reading more about him because of the connection that Jimmy drew between him and Jack Sarfatti and, and Epstein that hadn’t necessarily occurred to me before, you know, his work goes in very interesting directions.

You know, the idea of the connection between. The aliens and the dead, you know, of course there’s this gifted children theme where there’s, you know from childhood, you know, there’s this connection with them and then blossoms in later life. And something that he brought out in later works is that, you know, the there’s some connection between them and death, you know, that were being brought up for death.

I guess it’s connected in a way with the NDA thing and some of the skepticism

Alex Tsakiris: [01:39:27] It connects only with the skeptical part. And that’s why I think we need to be suspicious of it because it has, so I don’t know, I, we can’t decide definitively, but it has a lot of the fingerprints of a, of a PSYOP to, you know, is that I am in a co-op that, and I’m going to kind of control that message.

Khalid: [01:39:46] Two narratives of it. One is that like, it’s all an alien trick. And the other one is that the aliens are like real sincere. Peaceful representatives of, you know, whatever awaits us upon death, you know, there’s different spins on it.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:39:59] I wouldn’t necessarily break it down like that because I would say, look, as soon as we contemplate an extra terrestrial non-human intelligence in these extended realms, well, we can attach anything to it.

We can say, you know, they’re in cahoots with the military industrial complex and you know, this or that it’s my lab or that it’s space brothers or that they came in, met with Eisenhower and they gave him a choice. Do you want to be the good guy? And he goes, you can go to, so again, where’s Terra firma, you know?

And so to me, John Mack is, is partly Terrafirma. You know, it’s not like if, if that was the interesting conversation I had with Blumenthal light. So like, if you want to step over John Mack’s work, you can do that. But then what you enter into is that, okay, our reality that we’re talking to on this little zoom call is a non-reality.

So we’re talking from a prejudicially, a stupider non-reality contemplating the greater reality because there’s no other way to process what, what John Mack is saying because John Mack, after a while, he kind of comes around to the idea of kind of a jock valet ish, kind of, Hey, maybe I don’t see the full picture.

Yeah. And, you know, I always bring up about jock valet is that cause I interviewed Jack delay, you know, Jack late says those things, but they are misinterpreted by most people. And I actually asked him this in his interview. It’s not a, it’s not an either. And it’s a both thing. And it’s a guy who still walks around with a piece of slag in his pocket from UN quote unquote alien spaceship that when you look at it under an electron microscope has characteristics that we are unable to create or engineer on this planet.

So, and if, no, you know, not to kind of do the whole, but th the other person I interviewed, I think, I always think is like a forgotten piece of this is like this woman from Montana state university anthropologist. Her name is Dr. RD six color Clark native American scholar, but she went, interviewed all these native Americans and then she started interviewing.

Indigenous people around the world and they’re like, yeah, star people, they come from the stars, we’ve known it all along. Here’s what it is. And they even have contemporary encounters with them, but they also have all these ones from their tradition and stuff like that. So again, to step over that data and say, Oh, well, you know, we now understand, or we now are contemplating this extended realm where a is doing dissociative identity disorder in connecting with evil spirits.

So wrap it up there it is. There’s ITI. It’s like, fuck. Now don’t look that way. To me, it looks like ITI is definitely in play and all the rest of that stuff is in play. And if anything, we’re just sitting over here in our tiny little confines of this brain, that’s processing this consciousness, that’s flowing through us and we’re looking through the pinhole.

Khalid: [01:43:01] So you’re saying basically that you do think that they come from that there’s aliens from another planet in outer space. I mean, that’s seven it’s

Alex Tsakiris: [01:43:10] Best evidence gets you there. The best evidence is going to be cross culture. Cross time, you go cross culture, cross time.

It’s, it’s all over the place they go to the Dogan. They don’t even in Africa, in ancient tribe, they don’t even have a language. They say, yeah, there it is. . And by the way, you know, for the last hundreds of years that told us there’s a twin star there and not until, you know, 20 years later, when we have the micro, when we have the telescope capability, after the first anthropologist gets there, they live and go, Oh my God, there is a twin star there.

You know what I mean? It’s

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:43:40] comfort

Khalid: [01:43:42] this count, the importance of space or the you know, the importance of the sky, the stars astronomical or astrological phenomenon. And it connections with this. I think that definitely, obviously, yes, you’re absolutely right. That culturally speaking, there’s an association between you know, these beings in the sky.

So I think that that is definitely sail. And and you know, I think that space, traditionally speaking is imagined, you know, as you know, we’re talking about other realm, you know, like you said, both ends, you know, space, traditionally isn’t imagined as. Like an extension of our same plane, you know, w there’s an atmosphere and then you’d go out and Pat his face, and we’re talking about traditional imaginations of it.

Usually it is like a different ontological domain, like the firmament, you know, where the stars are. That’s not like just an extension of the same sort of physical rules or the same physical framework that we have on earth, you know, by just by virtue of like an atmospheric screen, you know, it’s a different like in the same way, you know, that’s where like angels and things like that.

Yeah. Live, you know, so it yeah, I think definitely, yeah, exactly. Powers that the powers of the air. Right? Yeah. So I think that there definitely is some, some significance to that, but, you know, I definitely don’t, I don’t think it from, from what I gather, I don’t think that it means to you, you would either and saying both hands.

I definitely think that there’s more than just that there’s, you know a normal race of intelligent beings that, you know, came here in spaceships. I think that there’s something, yeah, there’s something. Going on with other ontological domains of reality. You know, there’s a connection between this and, you know, the idea of, of the gin, for instance, between, you know, the shadow people or other types of other categories of spirit, the spirit being,

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:45:15] also the technology, which now I’m seeing that the Navy, the Pentagon just keeps releasing these videos. Of course they could always be CGI, but I’m willing to accept that the videos are showing something like we can finally put that to rest that UFO’s are not just balloons

Khalid: [01:45:32] misinterpreted. Yeah. There’s definitely a UFO phenomenon ended a duction phenomenon.

Definitely. Like there’s not, it’s not just like people like, you know, farmers like out in the sticks, like lying or something, or people just seeing like balloons and being confused. Like they’re both genuine things and that’s always really been acknowledged. I think they’re, these are real phenomenon. The question is, you know, as the explanation behind them, I mean, so your earlier your much earlier point at the very top of the show, I think that I am skeptical of the hard push toward the kind of materialistic ETF phenomenon from two angles.

One being that. They’re peaceful. And one being that there are military threat, I think that that’s like a huge reduction of the actual situation as you know, encountered by people who have dealt with it extensively.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:46:17] Than that, as you guys call it, I thought it was

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:46:20] beautiful. Yeah. I mean, yeah, between Steven Greer and the, to the stars Academy, there is a weird kind of dialectic going on where they’re kind of beefing.

It almost feels in a kind of like a pro-wrestling kind of way of these are the two poles of the UFO disclosure community. And they’re both saying the other one is Saya popping you, but they’re probably both sides shopping. You’d have a certain degree. I mean, when you just look at who. These people are associated with like people from the Mellon family and Pentagon people and John Podesta, give me a break.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:46:52] Tell that story real quick in the way that you guys do it. So you’ve got Steven Greer up there saying, Hey, they’re all good. And the only bad ones are the evil MyLab stay away from them. And then I love the way so many people don’t see this and you guys were like totally on it.

You know, he’s, he’s up there with the, with Dodi, he’s up there with Tony, he’s up there with Dody. It’s like, how can we even, how can we even process that as anything other than it’s an N it’s almost like in your face Saya.

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:47:23] And he comes out of transcendental meditation.

Khalid: [01:47:25] Steven. Yeah. Well, that’s what he pushes as a way to engage with these things.

So that’s, yeah. That’s another interesting component of it because he does have this kind of, yeah. Maybe they’re in a higher spiritual plane, but he still like deals in the same tropes of like the sauce or man, you know, they come, you know, maybe they’re they’re light beings in some way, but they, you know, they’ve been there in conduct with the military, you know, they come from other planets, et cetera, you know, and I think that.

There definitely is. I do not credit or trust, like the people who are trotted out, you know, on Tucker or, you know, in the media to be the ambassadors for how this phenomena’s got to be interpreted because yeah, you’re absolutely right. That those who have followed this for a while, like it is quite transparent to them.

But I think that there’s a huge increase in awareness of this like a general population where there’s a huge push, like the New York times, et cetera. Like there are people are becoming more aware and like, they’re just believing what these ambassadors of the subject are saying. And I do not trust like, you know, either narrative.

And I think that there, yeah, it is a Pennsylvania where they’re meant to be like in dialectic and by the appearance of conflict it’s to exclude like all the things that are important to consider about this. Like everything that they agree on is like the area where you need to be worried. Like, you know, the fight they’re having is trivial.

Like their area of agreement. That’s like where the sign up, I think comes in,

Alex Tsakiris: [01:48:41] it’s back to Michael , Aquino, right? I mean, as you guys were saying, it’s like,

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:48:44] Hey, he was into you. He was a space intelligence officer in the early nineties at the end of his career and an uncertain interviews. He would talk very coyly.

About having been to area 51 and that maybe he had seen certain technologies that may or may not have had ITI origins, but remember he said something weird about it, like a gyroscope device that he wants held in his hand that I guess I think he was implying, it mimic the kind of properties of how UFO would move like a flying saw

Khalid: [01:49:13] deep down, you know, maybe not he didn’t publicize it as heavily as maybe some other people do, but I think that he really did also have kind of a, both and approach to this phenomenon as similar Jack Jacksonville, like way, like he thought that he did believe like in kind of ancient aliens type stuff.

I think that he had an idea of set and maybe some of these like other love crafty and entities that he would mention as being, you know, out there in some way, a connection between, you know, the whole binary of the material and spiritual is a bit vain, you know, or at least a bit poorest where, you know, I think that it’s not just like, Oh, you know, they’re evil spirits, but there are, they’re in you know, they’re separate from our reality now they’re like a part of it, the whole thing of like supernatural and paranormal, that is in a way, like, if not a PSYOP, but then like a naive distinction, because like these things are part of nature.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:50:01] Let me throw a little tiny. Log on the fire that you guys can spin off of. And it totally compliments what you’re already talking about. But, you know, I was mentioning Ralph Blumenthal, the guy who wrote the John Mack biography. And you know, the other thing he’s famous for, I’ve talked to him about this.

Is he along with Leslie cane who is awesome. And I’ve interviewed her a couple of times on the show. They’re the ones who broke the New York times, December, 2017 a tip, you know, the they’re the people. So I always was like, to me, it was always such an obvious political side. It feels like, come on your kid.

And the tell is that, then they get you, you know, you push them. They go, well, it wasn’t classified. Okay. This business, the biggest story, the biggest event in history, labeling

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:50:52] Pentagon, once again,

Alex Tsakiris: [01:50:56] the 60 years we’ve been threatening, how many people we know beyond threatened, how many people have probably been killed over this families have been threatened.

You know, if you ever let any of this immigration out, Oh, it was just laying, there was unclassified. But I genuinely think that Blumenthal and Leslie cane are sincere, you know, when you talk to them because, and in a way I love that. And it’s a kind of a topic. I don’t know if we’ll have time to get into, but it’s like understanding the complexity of all our lives and how you can be all these things and how we can all be duped, you know, and how we can all be how we can all be duped.

And we think we’re getting a real story and they’re making us fight for it, you know? And it’s like, Ooh, gosh, we got it. Oh, we got it. We got it. And all the way along play in you, you know, and that video and I interviewed the guy who was on the boat very, very key witness and all his experiences with it.

He said, that’s the real video. It was in my secret inbox the next day. But it also showed up on the internet seven years ago, somebody released it and got out. So the video is, is no doubt in my opinion, real, but the fact that these guys got. Duped by the New York times into thinking that this was something other than the other arm of the pincer movement, you know, killed

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:52:16] and, and yeah.

And then you look at the people, like I mentioned, like Lawrence Rockefeller spent millions of dollars, I guess he founded, he, he financed move on. The, let me see Fu for like all of these different groups for many, many years. And then when you think about somebody like John Podesta, who’s such an operator who is kind of aligned it almost, it may even map onto the kind of Republican Democrat kind of dialectic in the sense of like you got to Harry Reed, John Podesta, Tom.

DeLonge like a kind of Hollywood entertainment guy on one. And then like the melons on one side though, honestly, they’re, they’re both right and left wing depending on the day. And then the other side you have Tucker who, interestingly, I don’t know if this is totally irrelevant. It’s interesting that he’s such a deadhead and has also like UFO reports and is also probably CIA.

His dad, I believe ran either voice of America or the broadcasting board of governors in the 1980s at like the absolute climax of the cold war and the collapse of communism around the world. Like that was his, his dad, his, that runs around with like sketchy commando, military contractors in the middle East and stuff.

Tucker, I believe Sorry, I believe Tucker didn’t he say is any one of these many people in the media who said they’d like tried to apply for the CA but got rejected. I don’t believe that honestly. And it’s interest. So he’s kinda more, you know we we’ve talked about the Yankee and cowboy dial. I think a lot lately Tucker kind of comes from, I guess, kind of the, despite his, you know, his love for bow ties in the past kind of a more cowboy aligned sort of thing.

So maybe he’s going to be having more of the Steven Greer type. I though, I don’t know, maybe it doesn’t matter boosted

Khalid: [01:53:54] the Elizondo type of like he boosted the phenomenon in the show. I remember very clearly that when you had a, I think it was Elizondo that you had in the show, but whoever he had on, he did.

Yeah. Yeah. He said something that was like, if it weren’t an election year, you know, we’re in an election months, we would do a whole week on this. It’s that important, which is such an amazing, you know, especially for like an audience, like Tucker’s, which is generally very uncritical and, you know, just hanging on his, every word for like all their views about the world.

Like that’s quite a profound statement. Like, yeah, I use hyperbole all the time, but like, that’s going to activate like, people’s sensibilities about this, but yes, it’s it’s very bizarre and something that, you know, the whole thing, I feel like. The most famous or one of the most famous things are UFO’s to come out of this as tic TAC, you know, the idea of the tic-tac something that is like, okay, so what is the space narrative?

You know, there definitely has to be some more complexity to it because did the aliens just invent the tic-tac like what happened to the old saucers? You know, they stopped. Using those they have now the tic-tacs and how convenient is this? Now it looks like the case for your like Apple ear pods or whatever, you know, that they’re flying around it.

And like, it looks like something that, you know, Apple would design if they were going to design like a UFO, like why, why is this the case? You know, it’s, it’s very interesting, you know? Yeah. I mean, I, at Jacksonville, I was involved in that phenomenon documentary and I definitely understand the critique of Shaq filler that you hear from some quarters.

And he is like a spooked up person and he has these things, but I,

Alex Tsakiris: [01:55:18] I don’t understand the haters. I don’t understand the haters on valet. I really don’t. I think he’s, I think he’s as legit as, as I can find. And I think he has that, that French vibe that adds to his legitimacy to a certain extent. Cause he was, I really don’t give a shit about what you Americans think.

I’m going to go back to the sanity sanity of a France, but he’s also, you know, he’s plugged into, I think he’s legitimate venture capitalists, not like a phony venture capitalist that gets put on boards. He really has some knowledge. He’s a computer scientist, you know, and I’m a computer scientist. So I respect that.

He, I don’t know, I don’t understand the haters, the story, the story that he told me on the show that I thought was really great. And it’s confirming of something else that you guys can clue into. He said he was there at Sri. When they were doing the project Stargate stuff at the beginning, you know, before they get into the remote viewing or I guess at the same time, but they had Ernie Geller famously there, you know, the nine guy from the 900 entree which we could go off, but, but anyways, he’s there and he had missed the experiment, the testing that he’d done.

So he says Yuri says, here, we’ll do it. We’ll do it right here. And so this is the words of shock filet. He says, I did a protocol where I came up with this image in my head and then jock filet, or I wrote it down or whatever it was, but it was really quite amazing and I’m botching it. Cause I can’t remember it off the top of my head, but it was actually had a language part of it that combined two images in a way that you wouldn’t normally do.

It was just kind of a quirky thing that valet had had done almost inadvertently that would have probably not flown in the protocol of the experiment, but made it more difficult. But Geller was able to totally, you know, get it and say exam, read his mind essentially. And he was also able to you know, Ben spoons right in front of him and spoons that were at the table in the cafeteria.

And he was able to stop a watch and all that stuff that sounds really, really hokey and really, really suspicious. I mean, he doesn’t have a reason to lie on that and tell those stories.

Khalid: [01:57:32] And he says, Oh, it’s there. We know we’re just tend to hedge, like when we’re talking about these things, but really what I was my watch appointments that I really admire his passport to METCO and he, and I have not heard the take that he and John keel have on this phenomenon where you know, that you can see the, for instance, in the Airship room or in the 19th century, United States around like the, you know, mysterious inventor who had bought this air ship that was cited by so many people, or even the medieval accounts of like a big hook coming out of some airborne craft and like, you know, lassoing onto someone like the transformations in the way these crafts are seen based on, you know, what people imagine about them or their expectations that they have and all the different, weird absurdities or contradictions around the phenomenon.

You know, I think that’s a very salient and important point. Like when talking about this stuff, you know, I think that something that the Steven Greer and the total stars Academy approach is both have in common, is that they’re very reductive. They’re very narrow in their approach. You know, they want us to, you know, they do want to have sort of point nailing it down, you know, and for things to be like, Oh, you know, the, all the lines look like this, you know, they, these are the craft that they fly, et cetera.

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:58:35] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. They want to bottle it all up. Yeah. No, I think, I think it’s, I think it’s the closest, even though I can’t say a hundred percent would trust Jack valet, but that’s more has to do with the people he was associated with from put off the target to who was a kid green, the CIA analyst to IRA horn and somebody else who got the God phone call, you know, weird case there, Edgar Mitchell, who I think founded the Institute for new what’s the

Alex Tsakiris: [01:59:08] .

What’s the dirt on Edgar Mitchell. I wasn’t aware

was he a guy thin guy?

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:59:12] Edgar Mitchell wasn’t, but he, he got very into Paris psychology after he had some kind of mystical experience with the leave coming back from the moon. And he, I believe, yeah, he co-founded the Institute for Noetic sciences.

He was also actually didn’t know this. He was, he was a member of de Molay international massage international Masonic fraternity, and was active in the boy Scouts as a teenager and received a private pilot license at 16, which means he might’ve been in civil air

Alex Tsakiris: [01:59:42] patrol. No, don’t go. There don’t go.

There were two hours. I wanted to go. I wanted to go Lee Harvey, Lee, Harvey, Oswald. I want him to

Dimitri Poshlost: [01:59:51] care. Well, New Mexico also and Oh yeah. Yeah. So I mean, but yeah, the Institute for Noetic sciences was I want to say that. Wow. Actually, I, I there’s so much stuff with him in 1976, he attempted to secure additional funding for Sri’s remote viewing research in a private meeting with director of central intelligence, George H w Bush.

So I guess they knew they had the good relationship, but where I, I can’t remember of Institute of Noetic sciences. Well, okay. So they, they were one of the people that were involved with the Sri report that we just did an episode on called changing images of

Khalid: [02:00:27] man. Yeah. Yeah. That’s something, yeah. I wanted to bring up this whole time because that’s relevant to that type of, you know, sixties stuff with it.

Like, you know, when you mentioned, like they’re engaged with remote viewing and all of these things, like an Sri in particular, like yeah. It’s very, very relevant, I think. Yeah.

Dimitri Poshlost: [02:00:43] Yeah. They mentioned all kinds of things from ESP to remote viewing, to hypnosis and things like that. And in that, and it’s feels very prophetic in that.

Basically, they’re kind of talking about social engineering, using a kind of new agey paradigm that was very big and Stanford and Palo Alto and kind of California in general among this kind of academic in scientific intelligentsia at the time. And a lot of it does seem to have come curiously kind of true often kind of via the internet, which is also what Sri was building at the exact same time.

And that’s, I don’t know if you have any, a particular take on that, the kind of duality of. Because I do think it’s very interesting that they were doing all these experiments and ESP, remote viewing, telekinesis, whatnot, and kind of like, you know, wireless information transfer, you know, brain to brain, if you will.

But then they’re simultaneously building infrastructure and the technology, and even like the, you know, the conceptual framework for what would be like computer technology and the internet. And in a way, if you look at like satellite GPS technology or smartphones, all of these things are these not kind of like substitute prosthetic, like a cyborg devices that are meant to do the things that were being covered in these remote viewing and pair of psychology experiments.

And if so I know there there’s a take that I’m familiar with that I’m not sure that I am fully on board with, cause I think there’s, there’s some kind of they’re there with the pair of psychology stuff, but to some extent with some of that stuff, a smoke screen, perhaps, or certain aspects of it for the actual building of the internet, because, okay, just for example, remote viewing, they were using that in the 1980s, people Ingo Swann, right.

To go spy on say a Soviet nuclear facility. Right. And you know, they, they, they would use it for espionage purposes. But then there are other things that could do the exact same thing. At least to my knowledge when. You were talking about like the, I don’t know, the types of remote viewing they would at least be doing in these military applications.

Maybe there was a story about, they walked into like bridge and you have an office in the criminal. Probably one of

Khalid: [02:02:55] the yeah, one of the, in the Soviet psychic discoveries book that we read. That was one, I forget the name of the, the performer, but he was one of the great sort of magician and illusionist messing.

Yeah. Well

Dimitri Poshlost: [02:03:06] One thing that was kind of significant is like once they had the kind of I think what was it called echelon?

Like the secret spy satellite network that was really up and running by the eighties, they were able to monitor Soviet economic activity in real time, in a way that they never were able to do before and because of it. So for example, like take grain, for example, if you could have satellites flying over there 24 seven, and you could predict the size of the grain harvest or, you know, where, how fast it moved to market, the transportation lines, all that kind of stuff that you were kind of boxed out on before.

Like, it was really hard to get intelligence on that. If you could get enough detail, then you could start manipulating global commodities markets. Which they did you know, under the leadership of people like bill Casey, the CIA director, as part of this vaster strategy to economically basically sabotage that Eastern block and basically throw it into crisis by manipulating everything from like the global oil prices, to like the price of grain and all kinds of other things.

So in a way, the, that satellite technology. Would be an incredibly valuable weapon to disrupt their economy. Now, if they knew that we had those satellites, I mean, I don’t know if they could have done anything about it, but if they knew that we had those satellites, you know, maybe they could you know, plan accordingly and try to counteract that.

But if all they hear is that we have a bunch of psychic, super spies that are remote viewing on them, which is what they were hearing. Cause the SLN had the Soviet American friendship organization that was sending

Alex Tsakiris: [02:04:41] scientists back. There’s too many threads here, but you do have to, before you leave the Gorby Yeltsin dropping acid thing is so frickin because that’s another one of those where.

No, I don’t know how I feel about that now. I feel like, damn, wait a go guys. You know, I mean, tell that, tell that story real quick. Well, I w

Dimitri Poshlost: [02:05:04] well, yeah, I mean that, that’s the sort of, we don’t know that for sure, but we do know that okay. It’s

Khalid: [02:05:09] almost certain to me, it’s almost certain that it’s some kind of drug.

I don’t know if it was at

Dimitri Poshlost: [02:05:14] least a Yeltsin, at least a yellow, an came over here in the kind of mid to late 1980s when he was still, you know, a politician, a Soviet politician. And he’s, you know, he, when he came over here on S sullen sponsored tour of America, and, you know, he’s mentioned a few things of it over the years that you can find some quotes from him.

And apparently this is where he had his ecstatic conversion to capitalism was in. Houston supermarket on this tour by Eslan where he looked around at just all the colorful cereal boxes and Twinkies Coca-Cola burst into tears because it was so glorious and like his poor, poor Russian Soviet people just have to eat.

I dunno, organic food in jars that doesn’t poison so terrible, right. You know, or blah, blah, blah, bread lines, et cetera. But you know, that was like his story of like, Oh, I just realized the abundance of American capitalism and wanted it. And then I was resolved to like go back and like bring capitalism back to Russia, you know?

And so there’s that, but then, you know, he went on a whole tour and I’m pretty sure he stopped at Exelon where they got those, those hot spring tubs and everything. And it could have been at any point on that trip where somebody could have either slipped him something or, you know, I mean, that guy was already a pretty big alcoholic, so, you know, just drop something in his FADA and boom, there you go.

So I don’t, we don’t know what could have. I mean, he like as a kind of bumbling alcoholic, a piece of shit that he was, he was probably relatively easy to manipulate or something, but at the same time, I think Gorbachev actually is a more interesting case. Cause I feel like up to a point Gorbachev really believed.

In kind of what he was doing with Glasnost and Perestroika. Like he did consider himself a good socialist or a communist, but he just, he felt that it had to be reformed and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, he had to do a dangerous turn basically. And, and then also save the world from, I think he, he was very mindful and afraid of like nuclear annihilation and that, that stuff, which just, again, was a PSYOP that was deliberately fostered by the Reagan administration.

So I think there was a lot like, you know, factors like that going in, but, you know, I would, I, I, I have to dig deeper into that. No, I don’t know

Khalid: [02:07:32] if Gorby himself visited SLN, but if he did like, well, if you think about it, like that’s what those human sexual movement, I mean, if you’ve read changing images of man, like they’re obsessed with it, like they really, truly genuinely believe.

And like, especially like, if you go back and like make the MK ultra connection, like they believe in using psychedelics to like, change people’s perceptions and like save the world from, you know, disaster. Like they definitely, yeah. I agree with you. Definitely. At least Yeltsin like that rumor, I, I definitely believe it.

Like I don’t know if Gorby, like on the books went to SLN, but like every, every Soviet like advisor of his who went there, like for sure.

Dimitri Poshlost: [02:08:04] Yeah. Because I mean, what they did is they, they somehow, like it ended up being a kind of coup from the inside where the ideological

Khalid: [02:08:12] it like hot tub diplomacy at a time, they would always tout it.

Yeah. Cause they, yeah.

Dimitri Poshlost: [02:08:17] So, you know, it could’ve been, they sat in the hot tub and said, look for us, we think that you are just the person that Russia needs, but you know, you need to go back and do this for us and we’ll make you president of Russia or something like that. I mean, I know somebody was slipping in the late eighties, like maybe the KGB was slipping because you know, how do you let this guy like, run around with excellent in America and then come back and obviously be somebody who’s trying to undermine the socialist system that people voted to maintain and then does it anyways.

And like nobody gets him like, I don’t know. It’s very kind of weird.

Alex Tsakiris: [02:08:48] Let me throw out. Little bit of time. We have left. We keep going over, but I can’t stop talking to you guys. Let me throw out one other little trail that I’ve run across that will directly, maybe we’ll you’ll you’ll have to track it down and see what you think.

Grant Cameron is a UFO researcher and he’s from Canada and then the late great Stan Friedman is another guy who was kind of pretty, pretty well renowned as being a UFO investigator who was legit and, you know, did really good solid work well between them. They managed to pry loose, use a foyer request, and that’s something called something differently called in Canada.

But the Wilbert Smith memo. Have you ever heard of that? Yeah, I think so. So Wilbert Smith was the guy in Canada at the strange desk in Canada for all aerial phenomenon. So he’s getting these UFO reports and finally he goes to the, his bosses of bosses and says, what are we going to do? And they go right, go down there, go down to the States, see what’s going on.

He goes down, he meets with Vannevar Bush. He meets with all the people that it says in this memo that he writes when he comes back, that you would only, we only know later that the, these are the people. These are the majestic 12, if you believe in majestic 12. And I think there’s a kernel of truth there.

Right? But this, and again, this memo is only released accidentally. Yeah. And, and it does look like it truly was released accidentally. Unlike the funny ones, they’re fake ones that are. Released accidentally, but the memo says this, the memo says this. It says, yes, UFO’s are real. It is the, at the highest level of security inside the United States higher than the hydrogen bomb.

But here’s the point that Cameron grant Cameron, you got to give him credit for picking out in the last line of it. It says they believe that there is a mental phenomenon associated with this and they are exploring that. And what he connects that to is MK ultra. So it, and it doesn’t like we’re saying it’s not an either or thing.

It’s not like spy on the Russians, get the you know, or they’re spying on us, do it before they do. But it’s also that 80 is in this other realm where telepathy is the mode of communication. We don’t know shit about telepathy. We better start getting up to speed on some of these extended mental realms.

And it just, it looks worth pursuing to me. Well,

Dimitri Poshlost: [02:11:23] it, it does actually that reminds me like my, I think the take I lean towards most with that kind of stuff about. You know, was remote viewing a cover for like internet technology being created is I kind of lean more towards a both and of, cause I don’t know, from everything I’ve read about all this pair of psychological phenomenon, like two things jump out.

One is that there seems to be a demonstrated will kind of effect like, I, it does seem like there is something like some people have a certain kind of an enhanced ability at the same time. It seems to be pretty clear that it’s very difficult to like programmatize and system and standardize it. And also like mass produce it in a way that you can prioritize it and integrate it into like our corporate economy and roll it out to everybody and use it to control everybody because it’s too not well understood enough yet.

So basically it’s like, they were kind of pursuing these two tracks and maybe they had to build the internet because. It, it, it’s kind of like that thing with Tesla, how Tesla invented like wireless energy and then, you know, JP Morgan is like, well, I can’t meet her. That sucks. I’m going to go with Edison.

It’s kind of like that. It’s like, well, you couldn’t fully control if we just opening like remote viewing schools and like teaching people how to cultivate their psychic abilities or something like that. Well, where’s the money in control in that, you know? So instead let’s put these satellites up and then convince everybody to buy this phone and get people in sweatshops to make the phone and use child slaves in Africa, to mine, the minerals for it, and then put it all together and then blast PSYOPs at you 24 seven.

And like, you know, basically create a little device that addicts you, and then we can, and then we can get our closet and real good. And then, you know, they probably won’t even, and then we can still pursue our pair of psychological stuff. And I’m sure somebody he’s still trying to figure out kind of how to reliably do it.

In a way where, you know, anybody with the money or the access could, you know, pick up a skill, but maybe not, maybe it doesn’t work that way. Maybe some people have it, some people don’t like, we don’t want to know.

Khalid: [02:13:29] This has always been a thing where there’s a certain sense of its unreliability.

I think that, you know, the, to try to use, I think that’s spiritual powers, like in the way they’ve been discussed, like traditionally, you know, yeah. It’s very difficult to use these for a cynical or selfish motives, but I do think that, you know, not to go completely down the both end rabbit hole, but part of what you’re saying is I think, or to speak to what you’re saying in part is that I think there isn’t necessarily a divide between the seasons, because like, again, as we all talked about on the show, some of the like technologies that we use now, like really have like an archeology or a history to them that is connected to like, these are called practices, like the scrying glass, you know, the black mirror, the obsidian black mirror and the black mirror of the computer screen.

You know, and people who talk about scientists, like they will always talk about the interaction or, you know, maybe the discord or the, the tension between the internet and, you know, well, of course you hear like 5g and stuff like that, you know? So that’s something that is real in that sphere as well.

So I don’t necessarily think, yeah, I definitely think that there is something, that’s what you’re saying, where they operational goals, weren’t mutable just in that domain and the internet developed to reach them. But there really is a lot of time across, over between those two areas. And

Dimitri Poshlost: [02:14:46] Neuralink is the ultimate example, I guess, of that.

Maybe that’s the dream.

Khalid Binyaqub: [02:14:51] Well, it’s actually a great example because the two themes that you see, like yeah, like Alex mentioned, the two themes are the MK ultra sort of mental phenomenon connection and the other one is metals and Geo Magnetics or whatever you know, like the mystery metals, like those are the two things that always come up in the perennial obsessions of this up to today to the star stuff of like, we have these compounds you know that will be a great use or whatever like that in our partnership.

Dimitri Poshlost: [02:15:20] Yeah they sold it to the army or something.

Khalid Binyaqub: [02:15:23] Yeah exactly they did like a partnership. Yeah, they’re like yeah, what like, what are these metals like, tell me you know, so I dunno. Yeah.

Dimitri Poshlost: [02:15:30] Yeah.

Alex Tsakiris: [02:15:31] Yeah, well you guys, this has been great and we just have to end it at some point or we could go forever.

Khalid Binyaqub: [02:15:38] Probably always encounter. Yeah.

Alex Tsakiris: [02:15:41] Well, it’s to our benefit because Subliminal Jihad is something that everyone has to check out and experience for themselves. You guys have already kind of dropped a couple of little hints about some stuff that’s coming up, but maybe you want to do some more of that and tell people the best way to connect.

Dimitri Poshlost: [02:16:02] Sure. Well, yeah you could find, easiest way to find us is probably on Twitter at Subliminal Jihad and you can find us individually that way too. You can find us on Sound Cloud or Spotify or Apple podcasts and on Patreon where yeah, like we said, that KPFA episode will be out later this week and you know, we do one public…

Khalid Binyaqub : [02:16:26] Yeah, one topic, one premium. Yeah, we got dog man coming you know, maybe some people are attended to the dog man. The dog man has three, we have our own take on that coming down. KPFA, It’s good, yeah, changing images of man episode and Opperman on our show…

Dimitri Poshlost: [02:16:43] Oh yeah, we have an Opperman interview that should be out in the next week or two. That was really great and yeah, what we’re probably going to, we might go back to the, I think the gifted children kind of thing. Yeah, I think we might, we just had an episode on Patreon and kind of Q1 on update where we talked a lot about this like cute researcher, Dave Troy. And if you want a spicy little nugget to leave you with, cause this stitches everything together, he happened to mention that his father went to Columbia and was selected as a part of a gifted child program

Alex Tsakiris [02:17:21] No way.

Dimitri Poshlost: [02:17:21] And his mentor, you know who his mentor was? Donald Bar. Former attorney general for his father…

Alex Tsakiris [02:17:28] Oh my gosh.

Dimitri Poshlost: [02:17:28] Jeffrey Epstein his job the Dalton school. He was also a CIA agent who according to Terry read traffic cocaine at amino Arkansas eighties. Yeah no, he got Jeffery Epstein so, okay. That’s the closest we’ve gotten so far to proving that maybe Donald Barr, Bill Barr’s dad, was running and he was, he was running a program for like gifted Columbia students in like physics and science and stuff like that. And that’s where this dude, Dave Troy’s dad he said he was his mentor, you know. And so the, I mean he was a little older at that point, but the fact that he was the head of Dalton school and then he personally brought in Jeffrey Epstein and college dropout to teach these elite, maybe gifted kid’s kind of seems like maybe Jeffrey Epstein was a gifted child of Donald Bar. And then you know, we’re right there. We’re right there in the thick of it, you know? So I’ll leave it. We’ll probably circle around to that that kind of stuff pretty soon. But you know, it’s a crazy web, but yeah anyway we can’t stop. Yeah, yeah, we got some good stuff coming up and yeah, no, this has been really fun. Thanks for having us on.

Alex Tsakiris: [02:18:33] Oh thank you Khalid and Dimitri, you guys have been fantastic and we’ll do it again sometime. Yeah. Yeah. I’d

Dimitri Poshlost: [02:18:38] Yeah, yeah love to.

Alex Tsakiris: [02:18:40] Thanks again to Dimitri and Khalid from Subliminal Jihad for joining me today on Skeptiko. The one question I would tee up from this interview is what do you make of kernel Michael Equino? Be careful how you answer because the rabbit hole on this one gets very deep, very quick. Q Anon, spirituality, MK ultra the whole shebang. Let me know your thoughts. Always love to hear from you until next time. Take care and bye for now. 

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