David Mathisen has compelling evidence of a worldwide system of ancient knowledge in the stars.

photo by: Skeptiko

Alex Tsakiris: [00:00:06] Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science with leading researchers, thinkers and of course their critics. One thing that especially fascinates me is things hidden in plain sight, things that are not obvious until someone points it out and then once they do, you’re like, “Yeah, I kind of knew that.” It’s hard for me to imagine a better example than the stars in the sky in the universal stories that are told about those. I mean, why all of the epic myths? Why all of the heroic warrior God adventures? And why the heck are all civilizations, from all different parts of the world, telling the same story? Think about that last one for me.

So there’s this ancient guy in Polynesia sitting on a surfboard looking up at some random blob of stars, because that’s what they look like to most of us, and he’s telling the same sacred story as some Viking in Iceland who’s buried up to his waist in snow, and the same story that some African tribesmen hold sacred as something that’s been passed on forever.

That’s not supposed to happen. That’s not explainable by our current understanding of how anthropology works. We don’t have any archaeological evidence to support why all of these civilizations would be connected in that way.

Well today’s returning guest, David Mathisen, has almost single-handedly change the way we think about stars, and the star myths associated with them, and this hidden in plain sight kind of thing that I just talked about. His books, Star Myths of the World, Volume One, Two, Three. I think you’re up to Volume Four now, aren’t you David?

David Mathisen: [00:02:07] Yeah, Volume Four is Norse Myths and it was published in 2018 Alex.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:02:12] There you go see, I’m one volume behind. Hard to keep up with this guy, and he’s got a bunch of other books that will introduce you to excellent books, overwhelmingly clear convincing, I would say at this point undeniable evidence for the universal star myth hypothesis.

But what’s really cool, and I know I’m going on here for a while, but I wanted to get it up to this point because what’s really cool about today’s interview and what we’re going to get into, is the messages behind those myths. So if we can get to the point of saying, “Yeah, that seems pretty undeniable,” then we ought to take the next step and say, “What might be the message behind it?” I mean, if there was some great teacher, and just put a pin in that for a second, who took the trouble to spread this perennial wisdom throughout our world, throughout ancient civilizations, throughout our planet, then maybe we want to figure out what they were trying to tell us.

So that’s what we’re going to do today with my fantastic guest, star myth master, David Mathisen, who I have total respect for as a fellow seeker on the path, I [unclear 0:03:24] to you, even though in typical Skeptiko fashion of inquiry to perpetuate doubt, I’m probably going to have some contentious points with you on a couple of these issues. But that’s the kind of stuff I like to do, the level three discussion beyond the kind of usual stuff.

It’s so great to have you back David. I’m so glad you initiated this because this whole conversation is taken on a life of its own that I am really, really excited to get in the middle of. So, let me step back and say, welcome and thank you for joining me.



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Alex Tsakiris: [00:00:06] Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science with leading researchers, thinkers and of course their critics. One thing that especially fascinates me is things hidden in plain sight, things that are not obvious until someone points it out and then once they do, you’re like, “Yeah, I kind of knew that.” It’s hard for me to imagine a better example than the stars in the sky in the universal stories that are told about those. I mean, why all of the epic myths? Why all of the heroic warrior God adventures? And why the heck are all civilizations, from all different parts of the world, telling the same story? Think about that last one for me.

So there’s this ancient guy in Polynesia sitting on a surfboard looking up at some random blob of stars, because that’s what they look like to most of us, and he’s telling the same sacred story as some Viking in Iceland who’s buried up to his waist in snow, and the same story that some African tribesmen hold sacred as something that’s been passed on forever.

That’s not supposed to happen. That’s not explainable by our current understanding of how anthropology works. We don’t have any archaeological evidence to support why all of these civilizations would be connected in that way.

Well today’s returning guest, David Mathisen, has almost single-handedly change the way we think about stars, and the star myths associated with them, and this hidden in plain sight kind of thing that I just talked about. His books, Star Myths of the World, Volume One, Two, Three. I think you’re up to Volume Four now, aren’t you David?

David Mathisen: [00:02:07] Yeah, Volume Four is Norse Myths and it was published in 2018 Alex.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:02:12] There you go see, I’m one volume behind. Hard to keep up with this guy, and he’s got a bunch of other books that will introduce you to excellent books, overwhelmingly clear convincing, I would say at this point undeniable evidence for the universal star myth hypothesis.

But what’s really cool, and I know I’m going on here for a while, but I wanted to get it up to this point because what’s really cool about today’s interview and what we’re going to get into, is the messages behind those myths. So if we can get to the point of saying, “Yeah, that seems pretty undeniable,” then we ought to take the next step and say, “What might be the message behind it?” I mean, if there was some great teacher, and just put a pin in that for a second, who took the trouble to spread this perennial wisdom throughout our world, throughout ancient civilizations, throughout our planet, then maybe we want to figure out what they were trying to tell us.

So that’s what we’re going to do today with my fantastic guest, star myth master, David Mathisen, who I have total respect for as a fellow seeker on the path, I [unclear 0:03:24] to you, even though in typical Skeptiko fashion of inquiry to perpetuate doubt, I’m probably going to have some contentious points with you on a couple of these issues. But that’s the kind of stuff I like to do, the level three discussion beyond the kind of usual stuff.

It’s so great to have you back David. I’m so glad you initiated this because this whole conversation is taken on a life of its own that I am really, really excited to get in the middle of. So, let me step back and say, welcome and thank you for joining me.

David Mathisen: [00:03:58] Well, thank you Alex and thank you for that kind and generous introduction. So the conversation that we will have will be different than any other conversation, because you’ll bring out questions from your experience and background and perspective that nobody else can.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:04:14] Oh, yeah, you can count on that. Hey, as I told you, I’m kind of into my Skeptiko Jeopardy phase, which has really been fun for me. I hope people are receiving it well, and that’s what I thought we’d play today, as a way of kind of framing up this chat we might have. And for those who are listening to the Skeptiko Jeopardy board here it is. Stars. Purposely Concealed. Authentic Self. The Spiritual Path. Contact Modalities. Myth Versus History. Academia and Ancient Aliens.

Now, we really probably ought to start, even though I did a long introduction, with Stars, because that’s what this is about. On your website, your excellent website, I picked up three phrases that I think are kind of key to the whole thing. So, I explained what the Star Myth thing is, but please do it in your own language. And the three words are, verifiable, universal and profound. A profound invisible realm that it opens us up to. So maybe you want to kind of takeoff on that.

David Mathisen: [00:05:30] Great. Yeah, I’m already liking your format. So I’ll take Stars for $100,000 and if you hear…

Alex Tsakiris: [00:05:37] That’s it, $100,000. I like the way you up the ante buddy, that’s it, go big.  

David Mathisen: [00:05:40] This is a game where you can only win the money, you can’t actually lose the money. I can’t lose $100,000 with this question, can I? No. So yeah, my dog is calmly sitting nearby, he likes to be nearby. So if you hear any distracting noises, don’t blame me, he’s in his place.

So star myths, the phrase I like to use is that virtually all of the world’s ancient myths, scriptures and sacred stories, as you said in the introduction, are based on a system of celestial metaphor and people sometimes say, “What are you talking about?” Well, to make it even more precise I would say virtually all of the characters and episodes of the various myths, whether it’s the myths of ancient Greece, the Norse myths, myths from the Pacific, like you alluded to in the opening or from Maya or from North America, Africa, Australia, virtually all of those characters and the episodes can be shown to be based on specific constellations.

The problem that many people have in getting their minds around even what I just said is, it’s very difficult for most people to envision a constellation because we haven’t been taught the constellations. That might be in a different square on Jeopardy, but for one reason or another, even if somebody who maybe reads astrology columns every day, if I said, “Can you sketch out the stars of Sagittarius, or the stars of the constellation Gemini?” They might have a difficult time actually sketching out the stars, the outline or even pointing them out to me in the heavens. Even though they know very extensive knowledge about the system of what Gemini represents, or you know, what characteristics are associated with Gemini.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:07:46] but maybe let me just interject in hear this all the time.

Maybe the modern understanding of those constellations is that they must have been really really bored and had a really wild imagination because to look at those random. Patterns and see what they see doesn’t make any sense. That is the modern. Interpretation of it. So you kind of have two levels to bridge their one is people are dismissing it because it’s like I can’t see those things up there and then number two if even if you pointed out to me and say well it’s just kind of silly from a bunch of people who are really bored and had a vivid imagination.

David Mathisen: [00:08:27] That’s right. Sometimes the term pareidolia comes up, you know, seeing shapes in the clouds. Well, we all can do that pareidolia. Is that human? Tendency some say it was an evolutionary tendency to see faces because if you’re an infant a smiling adult face could be. Your means of sustenance. So we kind of start to see faces everywhere.

I look at that tree. I see a face in it. That’s that there’s a term for that called pareidolia Carl Sagan actually talked about it in this essay. He wrote called the demon Haunted World where he said. Oh people kind of imagine Demons. It’s kind of an angels. It’s kind of a. Outgrowth of pareidolia so so I I’m trying to put a put the full weight of that anti argument and now I actually even say one further if the bridge even a third thing from what you said, you’re right, how do you know you say?

Oh, that’s just pareidolia gave you’re just seeing some shapes that you see. I don’t even see though that see different ones. Who’s the same you’re wrong or you’re right, and I’m wrong. Even further 15s one like a piece of dust. Even further would be to say now. It would be very unlikely for a culture in Polynesian Islands scattered across the Pacific to connect those Stars.

The same way as ancient Greece on the entire opposite side of the globe without any contact and not too many people were in Academia would allege that ancient Egyptians were in contact with ancient Maya or ancient Polynesia Pacific Ocean and some constellations people could say well, you know, what the.

The northern Crown is very distinctive. It looks like a narc I could see that being imagined as a necklace or a crown in many different cultures because humans wear necklaces. We all have necks. They wear crowns. We all have heads that constellation. I could see that cropping up with some of these connections are so Arcane.

So obscure in some of these constellations are very difficult to pick out even if you know what you’re looking for. That it would be very hard to argue that around the world people imagine the same constellations and imbued them with the same characteristics and yet that’s what we find in the myth.

So I’m setting up an even higher. They’ll or high jump that I have to try and jump onto and yet this is just what the evidence overwhelmingly overwhelmingly. Suggest

Alex Tsakiris: [00:11:17] yeah, exactly. I mean you don’t even have to get very far into this. I mean you are truly. You’re a researcher. I mean you used to teach College there at West Point, right?

So that’s right. You’re in you understand Academia. You understand what it takes to convince, you know, a body of intelligent people and you’ve way overshot the Target, right? And I mean anyone who picks up your book by and 1234. Maybe you’re just going to be blown away. There’s there’s no way this stuff can be explained away.

And what’s left. Is this huge mystery? Which never will be explained away because at least that’s my contention. Is that the part of the process? We don’t there’s maybe that’s another. Skeptic go Jeopardy aboard piece here because purposely concealed relates not so much to the constellations. But one of the things I picked up on what you talked about alluded to is that it’s some point in our history.

The chain of this spreading of wisdom was intentionally broken and we kind of wound up with you know this disconnect from this esoteric wisdom. Do you want to touch on that at all?

David Mathisen: [00:12:41] Yeah. So this is a this is a big part of the. Part of the story and when you say we, you know, it’s almost worldwide at this point.

But really you had up on your skeptic. Oh Square Jeopardy Square Roman and it primarily happened. I would argue in the Roman Empire in places at the Roman Empire conquered and those other parts of the world. That didn’t get conquered by the Roman Empire such as India or China. Or North America Central America South America the Pacific.

stayed more in touch with their quote unquote original instructions their ancient wisdom the term original instructions. I’ll give credit to Peter Kingsley and author that people might want to check out Peter Kingsley right some very interesting. Analysis and fantastic books the original instructions of every culture won’t it be nice if we were all still in touch with the original instructions about what happened at some point?

In this does not really debatable is something called literal list Christianity was instituted in the Roman Empire. Howard how it went from a small group to emperor Constantine declaring that he was a Christian and then eventually declaring the Christianity was the was the official religion of the Roman Empire and some successive Emperor’s between Constantine and Theodosius kept upping the requirement to wear.

Okay, Christianity is an official religion. Okay. Now we’ve got to get rid of all the pagan gods. Okay. Now we’re going to shut down the temple at Delphi that had been in operation for at least eight centuries maybe longer the Eleusinian mysteries of Greece. They were still going the Eleusinian Mysteries had probably been going on for eight hundred years or more when Theodosius shut them down in the late 300 ad.

This is all historical. Pretty indisputable some people might dispute it, but it’s pretty well established that the Roman Empire became literal list Christian. That in itself is a bit of a head-scratcher. If you’re a Christian literal list, you would say well, it’s God’s Providence. It would be pretty hard to take over.

The Roman Empire. Well,

Alex Tsakiris: [00:15:15] let’s we have to throw in there the kind of counter explanation for what’s going on with Constantine and the Romans and it’s uncomfortable for people because it’s sound so conspiratorial but it to me, it’s the best way to line up with the facts one the church quote-unquote that Constantine establishes is really an exact.

Redo reboot of the Roman existing system that they have with the twelve pillars and the 12th annual whole thing. And then further this is this is ushered in with serfdom. Right? So rights of all, the subjects are taken away. You can no longer own land. You can no longer even choose what job you have.

You have to choose the profession of your of your. Parents and all these other restrictions that basically turn people into slaves and in turn would you get for that is eternal salvation? Oh here we have now have this state religion that we’re going to support and you’re going to follow it and then you’ll get yours in heaven.

I’ll get mine now. So I mean you don’t even have to be that cynical to see this as a massive kind of. Social engineering social control kind of thing and certainly even if you don’t if you have a hard time wrapping your head around that then you just fast forward. You see how it plays out. I mean that’s exactly how it plays out.

So even if you don’t accept that that was the intention from the beginning. Kind of hard to deny that

David Mathisen: [00:16:51] well. Yeah, that’s a that’s an interesting way of putting it on might not choose the exact same words in my description, but I mean generally agreeing with what you’re saying because that is what grew out of basically, I mean some questions to be asked would be well, why would you do it with Christianity if you’ve already got the pagan?

God so-called or the ancient gods in the Vestal virgins and all the different institutions of the Senate was kind of the protector of the traditional religion in the Roman Empire. But all those gods that you mention we know we’re pretty familiar with the correspondence with the gods of ancient Greece Zeus.

Goes right with Jupiter. In fact Zeus Potter Potter means father in Roman or Latin Zeus Potter or Jupiter or Zeus the Father Jove the father corresponds directly to Jesus and they were very comfortable with this Mars corresponds with Ares Venus with Aphrodite. And even when the Romans would be fighting the Germanic.

Peoples of Northern Europe, you can read the accounts that there’s plenty of texts and surviving accounts where they would say. Oh, well, they have this God who corresponds to our Mars they have this God who corresponds to our Hercules. They had no problem seeing. Around the world that there were around their world that the gods of other people’s even under different names with slightly different clothing or characteristics or maybe facial hair and you know, Odin has a beard whereas Mercury doesn’t, or you know, some slightly different ways of worshipping they still perceive.

Well this God corresponds to this God and even today we have Thursday Thor. Day in Latin eight languages or romance languages is named after Jove Cuevas in Spanish or Mirko lace Mercury’s day. That’s our Wednesday Odin’s day really interesting that correspondence was understood. So why did they have to get rid of that system or what?


Alex Tsakiris: [00:19:14] hold on. I mean you’re that’s that’s awesome. And I’m with you on all that. But in there I think is the answer the question that you’re asking the. Isn’t that they had to do it they didn’t have to do it. But that whole strategy was a co-opting conquer strategy, right? So they weren’t interested in really assimilating with the Germanic people.

That was just the way a budding up to them before they slid all their throats, right? So, I mean they go in and they say hey, you know what? We’re a lot alike. You got sad or we have Saturn you have the you know, all this kind of stuff. So but then I mean the The Druids are still going to be slaughtered.

Right? So it was mass extinction of the of The Druids. It’s not like they really respect to the religion. This is a Roman kind of deal. I mean Romans conquered that’s what they’re good at. So the the fact that they did the reboot for Christianity. I understand you don’t have to go there, or you don’t go there, and you don’t have to go there but to me that seems totally in line with.

What they always did, you know, it’s a kind of bait and switch giving this take it away. But my dad well,

David Mathisen: [00:20:21] I mean, this is an interesting conversation and it’s not the area that I taught at the college level. So, you know Professionals in this area might take exception to the direction that we take it, but I might suggest that the Romans had an Empire that was very successful.

Because they did things slightly differently than some other Empires. They were actually very syncretistic or syncretic in that they would say to the they weren’t really the cut everyone’s throat when we conquered you. Empire is certainly right only I’m not suggesting they were cuddly and friendly they were hardcore very effective Fighters, but they would generally say hey we’ll set your Gods up right here next to our God’s they weren’t necessarily Evangelistic with their gods their like I said, it’s a oh, you know, well we correspondent in with Hercules.

You want to have a or her with Venus you want to have a temple to Isis and actually. You know the Isis Mysteries became a big deal in Rome and that’s really coming obviously from Egypt. So it’s really Christianity later on under in the time of what you’re talking about the feudal system that was set up after Rome quote-unquote fell we can talk about that too.

It was actually more convenient for these large families that now had lots of land to say hey, Let’s get rid of these pesky Emperor’s because Emperor’s are a pain. They’re constantly overthrowing one another and causing havoc and having all these intrigues and this emperor of March of this want to be Emperor marches in gathers up a bunch of troops and marches in to attack the existing Emperor and it just messes up our economy.

Let’s get rid of that Emperor and we can have a much more. Lucrative system of collecting rents off of all this land that we’ve got so so I think that did happen we could you know, I don’t want to get too bogged down in it, but I don’t

Alex Tsakiris: [00:22:19] want to get bogged down in the other because I took us there but I made a note I mean this is a future skeptical episode because I’ve had this floating around and you know, certainly I had Joseph that will on the show a couple times and he feels like he’s got this wired and that’s exactly the way it is, but there’s another guess.

Out there and not going to reveal who it is. I think really has this wired as well and the great everything everything you said was great, but it is kind of a little bit off topic for all the amazing stuff that you have. So I’m going to back off here. And this is the skeptical

Jeopardy board


you should pick

where we go next David

David Mathisen: [00:22:56] great.

Well, why don’t we. Just before we picked keep the listeners in his dispense for just a second. And there was another thing you said about Academia having a hard time getting their arms around us. I forget exactly how you phrased it. But really, I think it’s in line with the skeptic. Oh, Mission statement of exploring paradigms.

How do paradigms change? You know when when you say oh David has written so much has written so many I’ve written really over 5,000 pages of books at you say it should be just proven now some people might say but wait a minute how many pages of peer-reviewed papers has David published and I you know, I’ve sent in some academic style papers.

I know how to write an academic style paper and I’ve been politely told this isn’t very interesting or this doesn’t exactly fit or this is and I’m like, what do you mean it doesn’t exactly fit this is right in your wheelhouse, but the problem is if it is outside of the existing Paradigm or If it threatens the existing paradigm, Then it’s going to meet with resistance not necessarily conspiratorial resistance either but you know, there are institutional types of resistance who are if I’m a I’ve worked my way up through Academia through all these hurdles that I have to go through and now I’m a tenured were nearly tenured professor if I start talking about.

A paradigm that says there seems to be a similar thing or even a common system being operated in ancient Egypt and the sacred stories of Australia sacred stories of North America or even sacred stories of the Norse that causes problems. If I were to show maybe connections between the stars and the Greek myths and stay within that system that might have.

Some interest but the minute you say this appears to be a worldwide system that is that threatens to explode the existing Paradigm. And and what happens with Paradigm to Paradigm Shift over time. We know this in science we can see that say plate tectonics introduced in 1906 by Alfred Wegener was ridiculed.

And people said there’s no way that the Continental floors underneath the sea can let those continents move around because there are all solid. Well after World War II with increasing technology and submarine sensing. They go look at all these ridges on the bottom of the ocean. Maybe this Theory finally a 60s and 70s.

It began to be it began to be accepted. And what I would say about a paradigm is it will explain. Usually a lot of things but there’s always this like outlier I call it. The little bag of Parts is a matter for if you’ve ever taken a part in engine or tried to fix something in your car engine and you put it all back together and you got a little zip lock bag full of nuts and bolts that are left over.

You know, you didn’t put it back together exactly, right? You know, whoops where the how did all these things fit in there? Well, there are these are like the anomalous evidence that shows that the Paradigm is not put together completely right and eventually someone will come along and say, you know, if we put it together this way all those bolts would fall into place all that anomalous evidence, but fall into place and this happens over and over I would argue.

In the world of paradigms, right

Alex Tsakiris: [00:26:25] the Paradigm thing I mean that’s that’s all good. And we got

  shows. That’s number one. The the fact that there’s the Paradigm change in it paired changes one funeral at a time is true in one sense in another sense. There’s an organized systematic.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:26:46] Effort on the part of certain individuals and their different groups for different things whether it’s medicine, you know, they don’t want the Paradigm to change those economic interest often involved in this so it’s not like it’s a fair game. It’s not like everyone’s trying to do their best out there and it’s just you know, oh I’m so.

Drums of my ego of my think know it’s organized control that systematic and it’s regard to with regard to this latest thing. I mean what amazes me and what has happened over and over again just on the recent episodes of skeptic. Oh, I’ll have guests on and they’re fantastic guests and they’ve done all this research, but you got to do this silly double-talk kind of thing.

You got to say, you know, you’ve done great considering you’ve been in Academia. For 30 years and you got to hold some bullshit line. I mean last guest I had on Gregory Shushan, you know, same kind of thing super but you know, he’s got to be very careful. He’s got to talk in this, you know consider we have to consider the postmodernist that no experience matters like no we don’t it’s totally.

Freaking absurd no one in their right mind would would wrap their head around these crazy ideas or the the guy I talked to before that in anthropology same kind of thing. I have to carefully tread so carefully so I don’t even like to it’s a okay this horse. We have this false equality when we say, oh, well, you know, we have to kind of give equal time to the consideration of these nitwits who.

Let go of the theory. I don’t want to go there.

David Mathisen: [00:28:26] Okay, I hear your frustration there and I’m not trying I’m not in Academia. So I’m not trying to not step on anyone’s toes. I’m quite critical but I would say there is there’s room to say there is probably venality at work in some cases venal Vannelli.

What I was just describing in our people who there I don’t want my job to be threatened and then there is also I would. I would certainly Grant you and I’m certainly not shying away from the explanation of there’s also a conspiracy or conspiratorial interests at work power interests economic interest big-time power and economic interest going all the way back to what we talked about with the Roman.

So I’m glad we touch down the Roman because that gave the that gave shape to the Western basically the Western Roman Empire gave shape to Western Europe with which was controlled by. Large land holding families calling themselves Noble or Aristocrat meaning I’m better and the church and those two were basically a revolving door back and forth between those two and they are controlled everything and that’s really if you want to get into the Left Right split.

It came out of France in the enlightenment’s attempts to try to hey, let’s try and improve on this. Feudal system. Let’s get let’s get rid of this collect rent for just basically sitting back and hey, I wonder wonder how much rent rolled in today from my lands out. I need to go hunting. We’ll see what the peasants send me today and and getting rid of that rent collecting system.

It’s still a struggle that’s going on today. So let

Alex Tsakiris: [00:30:12] me back to what we’re talking about here in terms of Academia kind of throwing the holy water on your work why that’s never going to happen. And and I’d go further. I here I am. I think I’m kind of Defending Your Position which I don’t know how we got switched in roles here.

But like you said earlier, I mean there is no there is no reasonable explanation on one hand if you go to. Apology, there’s no one who would say? Yeah, those ancient Polynesians and the Mayans and the Romans and the Africans and the Norse they all created these myths this way no one says that right.

So there isn’t some when you say oh, well, maybe you know, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it’s a no, let’s not get in the benefit. Yeah based on everything. They’ve published based on what they’ve said. There’s no way to explain the universality of these star Miss. So the fact that they don’t is we don’t know how much of it is just ego people holding on to their jobs in their work or how much of it is the remnants of.

Hey, you know that’s kind of we don’t want to get into that esoteric wisdom because it opens up a big can of worms, but we don’t know which of those two it is, but we know it’s one of those two we know there isn’t any reasonable explanation on their part. They can’t invent something new to fill that Gap.


David Mathisen: [00:31:34] Right. So then this is great and we’re not I don’t think we’re arguing against each other. I think we’re building the point up from. From the friction of our conversation of our minds working on this question. So I would say number one my work certainly threatens. the literal list Christian Paradigm because it shows that you know, what I said about the characters and events of the myths of the world being based on the Stars can be shown with overwhelming amounts of evidence for the characters and events in the Bible, which has been.

Even up to a couple hundred years ago. It was actually dominated Academia to where you couldn’t you couldn’t argue against let’s say the flood as as described in the Bible or the age of the Earth. And so there’s a tremendous backlash that happened against that within Academia. But anyway, this this threatens that, but it also threatens.

So you said well, there’s no there’s nobody talking about all this. Because there’s really no way to explain it within their current paradigm. There are ways to explain and we’re going to explore some of those you could explain it by while it could be some kind of collective unconscious. That’s what Young said or some kind of psychic connection or it could be

Alex Tsakiris: [00:32:49] that still that’s totally off the table, right that’s off the table because it’s we have a materialistic science.

It doesn’t acknowledge that so because they’ve accepted a camera on this, I’m going to hear me on this because you’re going to go far filled with all these different explanations. It’s I get into this all the time with other stuff inside the Paradigm. There’s. No way to explain this period why do we have to try and let them back in the door?

David Mathisen: [00:33:15] Well, here’s what’s happening. Let me go back to my engine being put back together wrong metaphor. What I’m throwing. What I’m tolling up is not just a little bag of nuts and bolts. I’m holding up things. Like here’s a crankshaft. How do you you forgot this and they’re like, yeah, but my Paradigm is working and I’m like.

Yeah, you’re firing on three cylinders out of eight and it sounds awful and it gets terrible gas mileage and they’re like don’t mess with my engine. I’m moving forward down the road and I’m like you’re on three cylinders and Gobekli Tepe is another giant like Drive Shaft or flywheel. That’s been lost left off Gobekli Tepe is 6,000 years at least here to earliest dynastic Egypt and it’s beautifully.

Precise Stones aligned with Celestial alignments by the way that throws a problem into the Paradigm. But what I’m discovering, it doesn’t throw a problem into what I’m discovering at all because you could say well possibly the reason why this is dispersed all around the world. Is there some very ancient civilizations their cultures that far predate Mesopotamia ancient Mesopotamia and Sumer far.

Egypt far predate ancient India because all those cultures are already using this system. They must have come from something much more ancient. Nobody wants to consider something much more ancient that could also be advance. So they say no wait a minute that was only primitive humans or early humans.

They call them that’ll mess up. All our textbooks that show we basically lived in caves or we were pastoral, or we were. Hunter-gatherers and then poof Egypt and Mesopotamia just spring out of the ground out of nowhere and they would say well Dave you’re obviously you’re exaggerating that a little bit.

But basically, they say that yeah, we just all of a sudden these those cultures received what they had from somewhere probably. Far in in the past and that would help explain what’s going on around the world, but that’s also outside the Paradigm. But the Paradigm is going to have to change because Gobekli Tepe kind of recently late 90s early 2000s through a giant crankshaft into it.

Like hey, how are you going to explain this? And they and so far the Paradigm the existing Paradigm cannot incorporate it and they just in Paradigm has a problem with what I’m talking about too. And that’s why it’s almost like when somebody’s Paradigm is threatened. There’s like blindness that actually sets in if your wife is cheating on you and it will take over your whole world your gut is going to know it before your mind admits it you’re going to actually be blind to the evidence while your gut is like I know something’s going on and your mind is like I’m not going to look I’m not going to look over there.

I’m not going to look over there. So and I would say that when you’re talking about conspiracy that’s going on in the United States right now. There’s all kinds of. Evidence that people don’t even want to look at. Well, that’s always going always

Alex Tsakiris: [00:36:16] That’s always been the case. Got to move on, next category.  

David Mathisen: [00:36:20] Let’s go to Authentic Self. Let’s take Authentic Self for $300.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:36:27] Okay, $300, that’s very conservative, but I like the pick.

David Mathisen: [00:36:31] All right. So, what I would argue, people might say, “Man, I think I understand what he’s saying. That all of the myths are based on the stars. But why would they do that and why would somebody want to get rid of that?” I mean, I don’t usually emphasize the conspiratorial part too much but what I would argue is, that the ancient wisdom that is given to the world, that is given to virtually every culture on the planet… Like I said, when I say I’ve written 5000 pages, I’m not bragging, I’m saying there’s so much evidence there that it’s almost hard to write a short book about it. My most recent book is 900 pages. It’s not really the way you market a book, but I wanted to show it all in one place. But when I say I’ve written 5000 pages, the next sentence is, and I’ve only barely scratched the surface, only barely scratched the surface.

There are plenty of cultures I haven’t even gotten to. There’s plenty of stuff in one culture that could make 10 books. Even one book of the Bible, I could write a series just on the stories in Genesis and the connection to the stars, let alone the Mahabharat of ancient India, which is like seven times longer than the Odyssey and The Iliad combined and it’s all based on the stars I would argue, and I’ve shown some of those connections. So when I say 5,000 pages and it’s only scratched the surface, what I’m saying is, every culture has this ancient wisdom. What was it doing and why was it based on the Stars?

Well, at this point, I’ve got some suggestions. I’m not going to be dogmatic. I can be dogmatic about the evidence and say look this constellation is clearly lining up with this and this and this. What it means, now we’re getting into a little bit more of my interpretation. But after studying it for 10 years pretty intensively I would argue that one of the things it’s doing is conveying to us messages in an esoteric way like, Mr. Miyagi taught Danielson and conveying profound messages to us. Like Mr. Miyagi taught Danielson with wax on, wax off. Something that seemed totally different from what he was actually teaching him, was karate. Mr. Miyagi wasn’t trying to hide karate from Danielson, he was trying to explain karate to Danielson, but it involved some things that were profound, that were invisible, so to speak, hard to grasp.

And by the way, Danielson also came from… He wasn’t a very trusting individual because he was a very doubting individual and he’d been burned a lot. He was, I might even argue, traumatized and isolated from who he really was.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:39:23] But David, the natural question that rises up is, who would do this, and why would they do it in that way? Because you talk about this, I’ve heard so many interviews with you and we did an interview before, and it seems like we get up to this point and we talk about all of this great stuff and reintegrating with yourself and the twins. Which is fantastic stuff, I’m all into that, because that’s me man, that’s me, non-dual spiritual seeker. all into that beside me, man. But what you’re saying really begs these questions of, who would do this in such a manner as this? Because if we accept your 5,000 pages, then this is like a very human kind of teaching. You know, this allegory with, “Look at the stars, when you look up here remember this story and then this story, you should apply it this way.”

That’s not a thunderbolt, near-death experience, voice of God kind of stuff. That’s your second-grade teacher kind of stuff. Who did this and why did they feel that it was important to teach in this way, this kind of perennial wisdom?

David Mathisen: [00:40:40] Yeah good. Obviously, it was a “Kung Fu Master,” but not a Kung Fu Master. Mr. Miyagi had to be a master. He had to have karate or Kung Fu, or whatever he was teaching, in his bones to such a degree that he could say, “Well, how can I teach this to this guy? I’ll invent wax on, wax off.” You already had to know profound things to come up with a system. Let me just say that.

Now, when you say it’s like second grade stuff, maybe it is. Maybe a lot of our problems started in our second-grade age or earlier, because look…

Alex Tsakiris: [00:41:20] That’s a given. That’s a given. I don’t want to get off on that thing. I’m just saying in terms of, these are not like quantum physics kind of stuff. This is kind of basic kind of stuff. So keep going but I want you to also get, you know, Mr. Miyagi is visiting all the… You know, you’ve got to bring it back to the profundity of the totally busting the paradigm and the crankshaft and thousands of researchers around the world who don’t get it. I mean, make that connection. How do you have Mr. Miyagi going to all of these different places?

David Mathisen: [00:41:54] Right. So like I said before, I don’t actually believe that you have to have a Mr. Miyagi figure or a Quetzalcoatl figure moving from continent to continent, distributing the same system. It could also be from a very ancient civilization or ancient culture, it could have been worldwide, it could have been in one area. We don’t know, that was wiped out, or nearly wiped out by a cataclysm. And there’s plenty of evidence on our planet for cataclysms, whether they’re solar flares like Professor Robert Schoch used for solar activity. He could actually make the whole ground radioactive for decades where people have to actually live underground. It could have been some kind of impact from some sort of object in outer space like Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson have been talking a lot about recently, that caused the remnants of that cataclysm, who had their memory of all this very profound and advanced, and maybe they were all so technologically advanced. I mean, we see all these giant stones all around the world.

And then they had to basically live underground for a long time and then they repopulated or spread around and over the thousands of years the story’s changed in different climates. Like you said, the Norse myths have a very different feel from the myths of the Pacific, from the myths of ancient India, and they’re living in a very different climate. That’s part of the reason why, that they had a different culture and a different landscape that they were in, and different sorts of gods took on a different flavor.

But an explanation could be, instead of someone going around horizontally, traveling in a boat across the oceans, that they all descend from a tree from some ancient predecessor source that’s now forgotten, and that potentially was wiped out or nearly wiped out by some kind of cataclysm.

But let me also go back to your point about this is simple second grade stuff. I would say, look, this is profound mastery stuff. Let me just say, we’re living in a culture that is severely traumatized, so we haven’t got this figured out. If we’ve got millions of people dying from addiction, that’s because you’re separated from your authentic self is what the psychologists and psychiatrists, like Dr Gabor Maté, Dr Peter Levine say.

Look, I dealt with addicts in Downtown East Vancouver for decades and I never met one single attic who wasn’t traumatized as a child. I never met one single female who came into my clinic who wasn’t actually sexually abused as a child. So trauma, the modern definition of psychological trauma is actually separation from your authentic self and maybe some people are tuning out and saying, “Well, just a minute. I wasn’t traumatized.” The society we have that came from that society that stamped out all of this ancient wisdom is a society that traumatizes you, whether it’s on purpose, conspiratorial or just the way it got set up. It traumatizes people and even if you didn’t experience…

I would say almost everybody experiences trauma, but if the ancient myths are talking about reconnecting with your authentic self, then it must be even part of the human condition that we lose connection with our authentic self. And I would say that would be great if you learn how to connect with your authentic self as a second grader, but I would say there are CEOs of corporations, successful billionaires who get paid $300 million a year, who are separated from their authentic self.

So this isn’t a small problem. This is a huge issue. That’s why people take yoga or get into meditation, because they’re trying to find their authentic self and I would say that myths are a part of that ancient system, to point us on how to reconnect with our authentic selves. So it’s like a huge issue, and it would be great if you learned it by second grade, but a big part of the problem is we’re all still struggling with that. That’s what I would say.

How’s that? Does that… I mean, we can get into why…

Alex Tsakiris: [00:45:58] I’m all about authentic self.

David Mathisen: [00:46:00] Okay.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:46:01] I’m all about reconnecting with my authentic self. I’m all about the non-dual path, which is the authentic self in yoga, right? So it’s like there is the you and then there’s the outside, the doer, and you are not that. This is my personal kind of 24/7 spiritual path kind of thing, but what interests me and is challenging to me as well, is that we have to connect that with the world that we live in.

One thing I thought was interesting about the traumatization is, we live in a world, you are part of your culture from the beginning and I mean, you’re going to have to deconstruct that in a way that we can understand it. But you were in the military, you served and then you taught and there is an ultimate truth to what I have up on the screen. You want me on that wall, you need me on that wall, is real, right?

So one that’s real is that I live in my phony-baloney lifestyle because someone else is taking care of that messy killing people around the world to “keep me safe,” and if I don’t like that, and I don’t like the way they’re doing that, then I can do it a different way. But history isn’t very kind to people who aren’t aggressively protecting their right to exist.

Moreover, when you talk about trauma, forget that for a second, and what I’ve heard people say, we live by the descendants of people who engaged in hand-to-hand combat and murder on a mass scale. They were the winners, right? So whether it’s the Vikings that came in there and just mass killed everybody, or Genghis Khan or the Romans, you know, behead 10 heads and leave one. I mean, we are the descendants of these mass murderers.

So there’s enough trauma there. I’m just not comfortable with quickly putting all of the pieces together because the Gemini constellation has some esoteric wisdom that we all should have gotten on from the beginning.

David Mathisen: [00:48:17] Okay, interesting. Lots of stuff to dive into. So you talked about, we’re all in society and therefore, you know, we all get a bunch of stuff laid on us, whether you went into that particular part of society like the military. Yeah, I graduated from West Point. They use some stress-based training during Beast Barracks and Bleed Year, and we could spend the rest of the time talking about “funny” stories of stuff that they do to you when they’re screaming in your face. I graduated from Ranger School. I graduated from Airborne School. I graduated from the 82nd Airborne’s Jumpmaster School. That’s a particular part of society that lays a grid on your brain even more heavily maybe than other societal pursuits that people can engage in.

But the connection with society is part of what separates us from our authentic self. And I’ll go all the way back to the very earliest record. The very earliest human record that we have is the Gilgamesh… Well, the Mesopotamian clay tablets that were found in the Library of Ashurbanipal contain the Gilgamesh Epic, and in there you’ve got Enkidu and Gilgamesh who are almost twins. But Enkidu is this wild man. He lives out in nature, among the animals, he’s naked, he’s covered with hair. And Gilgamesh is the king and he’s two-thirds divine. And Enkidu lives among the wild animals and he’s connected with the wild animals until he gets entangled with society, and the first part is through sexual intercourse with the temple prostitute Shamhat.

See, the king is approached, and they said, “Hey, there’s a wild man out in the woods,” and Gilgamesh says, “No problem. Just take this beautiful temple prostitute Shamhat out there. Once she sleeps with him, the animals won’t want anything to do with him. And in fact, he’ll get tangled into society and he’ll become one of us,” which is exactly what happens. And that myth, that most ancient tablet that we have, shows Enkidu, after he sleeps with her, he finds the animals run away from him. He no longer has strength in his legs to keep up with them, like in the Rocky movie. Mick says, “Raymond Rowan, legs, rock. Stop that.”

So, that’s what happens to Enkidu, he’s like, “Hmm, I’m not the same man I was before but now I’m getting a haircut like Samson. I’m starting to eat bread and wine.” Hmm, where have I heard that in other myths before, that’s the first thing that he’s given? Some people say it’s bread and beer, it doesn’t matter, it’s the same constellations.

This is all related to constellations. But what it’s showing is, once you’re connected with society, you can’t go back to the state of nature. Enkidu can’t go back to being… So you can’t undo… It’s like they said after we’ve invented the atomic bombs…

Alex Tsakiris: [00:51:23] But isn’t that connecting with our self? Connecting with our authentic self is going back, is the journey back.

David Mathisen: [00:51:28] So it’s actually a journey… yes. But it’s not back to… Enkidu doesn’t end up where he was before he meets up with Gilgamesh and actually, I would argue that Gilgamesh and Enkidu are not two people. Castor and Pollux, one twin is divine one twin is mortal, they’re not two people. It’s like, I’ve been lately using the Lord of the Rings. Gandalf the Grey, before he falls with the Balrog and Gandalf the White, they’re not two people but he’s different afterwards. And Gilgamesh and Enkidu, they become so close that they’re as close as a husband and a wife, is what it says. In modern academia it says, “Oh good, we can talk about homoerotic ancient literature.” I would say it’s not homoerotic ancient literature, I’m not saying you can’t see that in literature, but it’s actually two sides of one person.

That’s why the Bible says there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother. It’s closer than a brother because it’s in you. You have to refine your authentic self in your mind. You showed some pictures of like Yogananda and meditation. Your mind is not you. It’s part of you, it’s a tool, but it can run away with you. It can trick you. Your mind has to be put in its place like my dog, you know, thinks it owns the house and when a male man comes up with a package my dog thinks he has to defend the house and have to say, “Hold on. You don’t own the whole house. Go and sit over there.” That’s what your mind does. Your mind is this defense mechanism that you’ve developed because you live in society, and that defense mechanism of your mind can take over.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:53:09] Right, but there are thousands and thousands of people and teachers who’ve spent millions and millions of hours trying to instruct people about these very things, you know? This is the non-dual path. This is the monkey mind, sometimes they call it in India. Now the problem with that is, you know, we are going to get really particular because I do, you are on the path and I am on my own path. We can all only take this path ourselves.

So I wouldn’t agree with the language. I don’t try and boss my mind around or wrestle with my mind or try and control my mind. I don’t think that works, but that’s a particular. understanding I have of my spiritual path and how I do it. What I’m trying to really get to, is trying to understand that in relation to what you’re talking about in the star myth.

So, you know, David, you don’t have to convince me that, number one, the star myth hypothesis is real. You don’t have to convince me that it’s hidden in plain sight from academic, stick-in-the-muds who this totally blows their world away. You don’t have to convince me that there is a perennial esoteric wisdom that talks about returning to our authentic self.

What you do have to convince me about is, is I’ve got a great finish for you, let me fill it up. No, I already did that, hold on. That it isn’t aliens. It’s like I’ve got up on the screen. I’m not saying it’s aliens but it’s aliens.

David Mathisen: [00:54:59] Okay, do you want to head to a new topic before you let me address some of the stuff you said at the start of this where you said, “I don’t believe you have to boss it around or that’s not how it works for my mind”? Well, when did I ever say you have to boss around… No, okay, I said my dog, I put him calmly in his place. That’s like when you’re meditating. Look, those spiritual teachers that you’re referring to they use…

Alex Tsakiris: [00:55:19] My teacher never taught meditation. Two of teachers never taught meditation because you know what? So, we could get into this whole thing. I’ve done yoga for 35 years, right? So I understand. I go and sit in ice baths six days a week at 35 degrees temperature to remind me that I’m not my mind. You know, you have all sorts of disciplines. You’re a freaking ranger, do you know what I mean? You understand the kinds of things that you do, but I don’t accept that as really being part of my path. If I was better, I wouldn’t have to sit in that freaking ice bath to remind myself, but I’m kind of stupid so I have to go there and go, “Oh, okay. I’m not my body and my mind can yammer away, and it doesn’t matter.”

So that whole discussion is like, you know, we could have a heart-to-heart three-hour personal discussion about how we have our own conception of our mind and how it works. So please.

David Mathisen: [00:56:13] Okay, but before we go to aliens, I just want to say, look, and I’m not prescribing any one path. I’m saying the ancient world had meditation, it had drumming, it had breath control, which I’m sure you do when you get into the ice baths, it had martial arts and it had myths. You can rediscover your authentic self by many different paths and you don’t have to use the myths either. There are probably plenty of masters, of men and women who have recovered their authentic self and never used the myth.

But I’ll tell you that those teachers, the yoga teachers like the Ashtanga story of Patanjali talks about him having serpent coils coming down and having coils of a serpent, serpent like, its mythical. It’s actually related to constellations. We could go into that myth, but the the myths don’t tell you to yell or order your monkey mind around because you’re absolutely right. It’ll just get stronger if you do. If I yell at my dog, he’ll bark at me even worse.

But it shows this in pictures like in the Bhagavad Gita where Arjun and his divine charioteer Krishna are getting ready to go into this battle of Kurukshetra. Arjun is seized by doubt and wants to withdraw. Just like doubting Thomas and Jesus or just like in the story of Eros and Psyche. Psyche has all of these doubts and she loses her connection with Eros in this ancient Greek myth. And Thomas, Jesus doesn’t restore Thomas by yelling at him saying, “What a crappy disciple you are. You’re the worst one. You were so full of doubt,” and Krishna doesn’t restore Arjun from his doubts in the Bhagavad Gita by saying, “You’re fired Arjun. You’re not even going to be in this battle, I’ll handle it.” The way he restores him helps us to understand the relationship, the proper relationship between our higher self or our authentic self and our egoic mind.

Our egoic mind is full of doubts because it’s racing ahead into the future or into the past and going all over the place. And our authentic self is just who we really are. It’s our Essence.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:58:32] It’s our be here now mind. I get that.

David Mathisen: [00:58:36] That’s what I’m saying, is the myths show that in pictures and it can be extremely helpful.

Alex Tsakiris: [00:58:39] It did show that in pictures, I don’t disagree with you. Some people relate to allegory, some people relate to myths. I relate to this in very simple logical terms. You are not what you observe. Anything you observe, that can’t be you. You must be something else. Uh-oh, lightbulb goes off. There’s another part of me that I didn’t realize, non-dual part.

Hey, myths are great stories throughout all the… I mean, the link that I think you’re making that is important here is that you’ve done this exhaustive important chronicling of these star myths and how they’re connected to all of these ancient civilizations. It is not at all surprising to me that those myths correspond to spiritual teachers, past, present and current. Present I guess is current. But current teachers who are saying the same thing from their personal experience. They’re not saying, “Oh this was passed on to me.” They’re saying, “No, I sat here. I meditated. I came to this realization,” and the realization matches completely with what you’re saying the myths say.

So, to me, again… Wait a minute, maybe I’m taking too much of an [unclear 1:00:05] tone here. But my point is, that’s the point that interests me. You don’t have to teach me about authentic self-integration kind of thing. Like I say, I’m 24/7. Tell me where that’s coming from. Who and why these star myths that we can date back that far, why they exist? And maybe you felt like you handled that when you said, you sit in place where you say, “There was some ancient civilization and they wanted to do that.”

I would then even ask, see, but then that generates to me an interesting question. Why would they do that? Because at the same time, you know, if you really look at some of the evidence that’s come up about Mars, right? It looks like, from a number of different points of reference here, one being the remote viewing of genomic monocle, who I think is like one of the top remote viewers in the world, you know secret spy number 000. And then I just interviewed Courtney Brown who’s currently a remote viewer, both, the same thing, independently, remote view Mars, ancient civilization may be our ancestors. And then I got John Brandenburg interviewed and he says, “Hey, I take it from a physicist’s standpoint. Ancient traces, hundreds of millions of years ago, of a nuclear explosion on Mars that has all of the signatures of a bomb.”

So I just throw that out because it establishes another data point, there is the potential that there are some ancient civilizations that are off-planet. There’s one that’s close by. And that comes up over and over again.

I had a slide up there of the Dogon, right? So you go and talk to the Dogon, but you can talk to all sorts of indigenous people, and I just had an expert on and they’re all saying the same things. Star people, star people, star people. They came and they passed on this wisdom.

So if you want to say that you stand apart from that and say, “No, I don’t go there. I don’t think that’s necessary. I think it could have been an ancient civilization that was Atlantean and was buried under the rocks for 30,000 years,” fine. I just want to know what you think about that because to me it seems that all of the evidence points towards alien visitation, alien genetic engineering, alien passing along intelligence. But then that raises a bunch of questions too.

David Mathisen: [01:02:33] Alright. So once again, I do want to get to the thing that you ended with but the thing that you said at the beginning, at the very beginning of this question that you’re framing, you said, “I got it. I’m 24/7. So you don’t have to convince me about connection with the authentic self,” but I would say this ties into the whole story and we’ll get to the aliens in a second. It ties in because we are not living in a society… I would say these myths were given to uplift men and women, prevent oppression, prevent tyranny. There are people who would argue with me about that and say, “No, these myths are meant to bind you into religion,” but hold on. I think they’re there to uplift people.

It’s great that you’re 24/7, but there also has to be a societal component. We want to uplift others as well or we should at least be saying, “Wait a minute, off of the 101, at the offramp I see 10 after 10 after 10 of people who are homeless. What’s going on?” We’re not all 24/7 reconnecting with our authentic self, our society is actually engineered to disconnect you from your authentic self, so you’re looking for solutions outside of yourself by consuming this or buying that or maybe the next person I date will solve my problems and it’s outside of you and we’re endlessly rushing after a solution that’s outside of us.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:04:06] But David, a lot of people are going to point to you and say, “What are you talking about? You were part of this military industrial complex that has us dominating the world and living our phony baloney lifestyle by basically oppressing everyone else in the world,” and that’s what we’ve done. Now, do you want to stand apart from that? I mean, I don’t know.

David Mathisen: [01:04:24] I’m certainly not in the military right now and I wasn’t one of the guys at the top. I’ll tell you that.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:04:29] I’m a part of it. I’m a part of it and I was never in the military. But I don’t want to give up everything, you know, by virtue of the fact that we don’t want to give up what we have. That’s a whole other discussion, and when you start talking about societal changes, there are a group of people who’ve always stood aside and said, “You guys can go and play whatever game you want with this world. I am in this world but I’m not of that world.” That’s the only thing that makes sense for me because as soon as you want to start going and handing out money to people in tents, then you’ve got a bunch of other people. I mean, I don’t know how you solve that problem. If you want to go there, let’s go there but it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

David Mathisen: [01:05:08] We can go there, but let’s let’s go back to the military point. There’s a proper use for the military. There’s a proper use for strength, violence or force and swords and spears and now we have rifles and other things and that’s to protect people, protect the weak. If I am protecting other people, if someone is about to be raped or murdered and I come in and stop them, that’s a proper use of force. If I’m using it to go around and rape and murder people, that’s an improper use of force and I would draw a distinction between those two things. And when I was in the military, I thought that the US Army was for defending democracy, peace and freedom.

By the way, I had not yet learned all I’ve learned about the myths. In fact, I hadn’t even started down this path when I got out of the army. And I’ll tell you that what I’ve learned about the myths has changed a lot of the things I believe. I was a literalist Christian at that time. I’m no longer a literalist Christian. I no longer believe that the military is being used for defending peace and freedom and democracy around the world. If you want to go there, we can go there, but the military is not being used to protect this country. It’s being used to take over other countries and take their resources. Afghanistan is not going to invade us and yet we’ve been there for 18 years.

But what I’m saying is, I don’t disagree, I don’t deny that there’s a proper role for force and militaries. My favorite of the ancient myths is probably the Odyssey. Odysseus was a badass fighter, right? But Odysseus, we see in that Epic, we actually see into his mind. We see his mind running away from him at certain points, where he starts to panic and then Athena shows up and inspires him and he stops panicking and gets back to the moment and actually survives. And time after time in that book, he would have perished when he met Circe. He would have perished when he met Scylla and Charybdis. He would have perished when he went down into the underworld all of these different times, but he had help from Hermes or help from Athena. What is that?

So I’m saying, if you want to be a better basketball player at the top of your game or a better, you know, any human endeavor, martial arts or military arts, you will do better if your higher mind or your authentic mind and your egoic mind, that is able to go into the future and the past, are in harmony and you will be able to realize your potential better.

Now, what do you do with that potential? Hopefully you do things like defending the weak and helpless rather than oppressing the weak and helpless.

So I think there’s an individual component and there’s a societal component. So I didn’t want to leave that behind when you were saying, “Hey, this is all great and we’re in agreement that we should be working on ice baths or whatever it is that helps you get in touch with your authentic self.” I totally agree with that, but I also don’t think that we should, as you said, drop out from society completely and say, “Well, it’s great. I’m reaching enlightenment, to heck with the guys who are…”

Alex Tsakiris: [01:08:20] I’m saying you can do that. I am saying you can do that. I’m saying, you know what, become more godlike and everything takes care of itself. You don’t have to get into figure out what would Jesus do, just become like Jesus and maybe we’ll do like Jesus. You don’t need to figure it out. You don’t need to figure out how to solve the homeless problem or how to solve geopolitical problems. You don’t need to do any of that. Just be a better you and then you will act accordingly.

And however you act, you know, whether you’re like, you know my good friend Rick Archer at Buddha at the Gas Pump who does this show, with 500 shows with spiritual teachers, but can’t wrap his head around the climate change scam and how that’s just designed to eliminate rights and take rights away. So if you’re an alarmist like he is or if you’re like I am and take more kind of, “Hey, I don’t know why they’re playing this game. I don’t know why they did 9/11. I don’t know why they did the coup that was the Kennedy assassination. I don’t know why the pedophile rings, you know, and the blackmail rings, I don’t know that I don’t want to close my eyes from it pretend it doesn’t exist.”

I agree with you on the military thing. Our best hope is the US Navy commercial, A Force For Good. That’s our best hope, is to hold to that ideal. Even if it’s not true, even if we know it’s bullshit, we have to say, “You know what, we had some guys back a couple hundred years ago that founded this country. They had some pretty damn good ideas and they were like, ‘Everyone just has their own rights and then they’ll do the right stuff.’”

So I’m just saying, I don’t buy the leap to trust me on all, because this has been used to exploit people and manipulate people and create cults is, “Hey, don’t you agree with everything I’m saying about your authentic self. Now what we’re going to do is this social movement.” No. Pause.

David Mathisen: [01:10:16] glad you’re going there Alex because. You’re clearly and you ask me the last time and you mentioned it when you talk about Joseph at well the word psyop, right? You’ve used that word psyop and are Cults were the Cults that suddenly popped up a psyop meaning where they more than just an organic cult that just popped up.

Was it possible that there were. Agencies that were giving some of those cult leaders cover like telling the police will don’t arrest that guy out in the desert is firing off machine guns, you know in the police are like why not? He’s firing off machine guns. Well, I don’t know but someone higher up said don’t touch him and then it turns out it was Charles Manson in the family.

Hmm. What’s up with that? So the Colts actually is an interesting point because. What I told you about the higher self in the psyche when aerys restores psyche, he doesn’t destroy psyche. The Cults are like you need to get rid of your your mind. You mean they’re they’re a subtle Distortion or twisting of what the ancient myths are trying to do instead of uplifting you they’re actually trying to turn you into a.

Slave but the and you mentioned Kennedy and all these things. I’m not sure if you were saying that just if you get in touch, maybe you were posing this as an argument that others do that others do that. You think is a false argument. Well if I get in touch with myself, that’s the best I can do and Society will take care of itself and I would say.

There’s a societal component to it that we as Citizens men and women can say to our government. Yes. Look I swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United. I’m totally dialed into the Constitution of the United States, but I’ll tell you that things that are going on like the invasion of your privacy when your iPhone is listening to you or Facebook is writing down.

Your conversations is an is a violation of the Constitution United States and Facebook is a corporation get certain privileges from the government such as limited liability such as a corporate charter and the people of the United States can say you know, what? I don’t really like corporations taking all my data and listening to every single thing.

I say, I don’t think that’s right Congress representatives in Congress. Please pull their corporate charter or take away their limited liability because that’s extended by society. And when you have a when you have a predator like Jeffrey Epstein allowed out on the streets for decades and praying upon the weakest, you know, young girls who are under the age of consent, so there’s no.

There’s no hiring of a prostitute. That’s what he was quote unquote convicted for in 2008. There’s no you cannot have a prostitute as 14 15 or 16 because they’re under the age of consent in Florida where this happened so citizens can say hey I meditate or I dunk myself in an ice bath and I get in touch with my authentic self.

But at the same time I demand. That the social contract is the reason we have police and military and allow them to have machine guns where I’m not allowed to have an M60 in my house machine gun. They get to have it why because of the social contract in part of the social contract is keeping Predators off the street and if I see evidence that there is.

Like Predators being protected and allowed then I think as Citizens you also have to get involved in that and demand just a minute. I demand that my 14 year old daughter be protected from pedophiles. Is that too much to ask? No, it’s not. I don’t know

Alex Tsakiris: [01:14:01] I’m saying it though. I guess my point was.

And I need this is kind of the world here that we’re talking about. I mean everything in the world is coming up in this conversation and that’s why I keep trying to bring it back to Star myths because that’s your thing because like I can’t. Tell people how to process all the stuff that you just processed because I sound like just another idiot old man with a bunch of opinions that are different from anyone else’s opinion what I can relate to about what you’re saying is anyone who is on the journey is on the spiritual journey is on connecting with their authentic self will organically come to the right positions, but I have.

Tell you I know people who are on that path and they come to some pretty weird conclusions that are very different than the conclusions. I did and all I can say is I pranayam to you my man because you know what that journey, I don’t know where it’s taking you but that person whoever they are clearly are on that Journey.

So I don’t know this gets into the nature of evil question, which I think is. Related to these questions that we’ve been talking about. I mean that’s a question that is interesting to me. I want to say it’s important because I have some pretty. Fixed understandings of that, but who and why in terms of the myth ancient myths The Who and why are the big questions to


and then what is the relation between that force that energy that knowledge and the evil because we do see evil. So, you know, Jeffrey Epstein yada yada. We talked about him forever. I go by had an FBI agent on and who infiltrated NAMBLA because interesting because Jeffrey Epstein is too easy for people to kind of relate to and him and Trump ran around and they picked up some young girls and maybe they were too young now go to NAMBLA.

Let’s go to NAMBLA where they trade in four year old boys three year old girls and then when they’re done, they trade them off and then they make films and then they ultimately kill in a lot of cases. So the reason I even go there is not too kind of shocked people or anything like that is to say if you have any doubts.

About the existence of each evil. I won’t even go to the nature of you but the existence of evil then that kind of brings you. Oh, oh, okay. I get it that is of a different ilk that isn’t just something that we can easily understand that is a force that we do see over and over again.

So what is the relationship between that force and. Perennial wisdom of the of the myths that’s the kind of stuff. I’m interested in.

David Mathisen: [01:16:59] Yeah. Absolutely. And the reason I raised the Jeffrey Epstein issue is to say was to point out that you can’t there nobody who could argue that if I just get in touch with my higher self whether I do it through meditation drumming ice baths yoga or whatever.

Then Predators will be kept off the street what I’m saying is you’ve got to have a social component as well as a self-improvement component because if I just worry about self-improving. And think that that’s going to somehow stop horrendous systematic traumatization of children by Namba or Jeffrey Epstein then then you’re wrong.

So it

Alex Tsakiris: [01:17:39] gets tricky some people leave until you that in the grander spiritual scheme of things including reincarnation and souls that there is some contract and this is all playing out. In a way that we don’t completely understand so that the victims and the perpetrators are actors changing roles and I don’t get into that.

I don’t endorse that belief, but I think there’s an element of that that is somewhat undeniable, even when we look at our own history and how things emerge for us and stuff like that. So the only thing I’d say with that is, you know, again, I’m treading lightly when someone. As you know grab the pitchforks and the Torches because God is on our side on this one.

It’s more like, you know, everyone’s on a journey and I wouldn’t want to be Jeffrey Epstein and facing his near-death experience or his after death experience and His Life review where he feels the emotions and the the feelings that he’s inflicted on other people. I wouldn’t want to be that guy right now, but beyond that.

In terms of you know, how I balance all the the massive scales. I don’t know how to do it.

David Mathisen: [01:18:57] Yes. I’m glad you brought that up because if like you said their God is on our side if if you’re I would argue that if you’re using your beliefs to justify. The violation of other people’s rights, then that’s a form of Mind Control if you’re saying well, we can Overlook the abuse and traumatization of those young children sexual abuse physical abuse because of this passage in this scripture or that belief then you’re twisting it because the ancient myths show that the Gods.

Work their will out through men and women that men and women are precious every single person is so if you’re using it to violate the rights of someone else you’re turning it upside down and that’s what I think actually happened with the imposition of literal is Christianity and wiping out the Ancient Ancient beliefs in Europe starting with the Greek and Roman gods.

But as you said proceeding to The Druids and working their way up to the Norse myths and then starting to jump the ocean and saying oh, We better stamp out all the beliefs of the Maya were better Stamp Out the beliefs of the North American Native American nations. We better stamp out what’s going on in the Pacific Islands.

This has been a stamping out in order to excuse and justify. Well see I would say that the gifts of the earth like oil that’s under the Earth the ancient Greeks would say well that’s a gift of pluton or Hades everything under the Earth. All the riches of the Earth are given. That Nation those people that were allowed to be born there by the gods and if I’m an oil company and I say I want to drill in your country in the people of that country say great that’ll be 30 percent tax to us for the riches of the gods that you’re taking out in.

The oil company says Hey politicians. Could you take care of these pesky guys in that country who are saying we have to pay a 30% tax to them. Oh, no problem. We’ll get our guy installed in there. He’ll collaborate with us. We’ll get that tax down to 2% And if there’s any pesky peasants in the way of where you want to drill we got ways of moving them out of the way to so so I think this is actually all related the to the.

All these issues, but if you’re excusing look, we’ve created a society that traumatize has people and you just told me about a group that. Systematically traumatized as people or we have this Epstein character who is systematically traumatizing people I’m saying you’ve got less resistance from the people if they’re all traumatized you’ve got less ability for the Constitution to work and for self-rule to stop Predators if everybody’s traumatized, so I’m not denying far from it that there’s conspiracy type stuff involved in what I’m talking about the traumatization of.

The World by literal is Christianity. Is that topic? They basically slaughtered all the Native Americans. They Justified slavery instead. Well indeed,

Alex Tsakiris: [01:22:08] we’re talking about the whole world now. So we’re going to get over to China and we’re going to talk about the chai cam craziness, right which is.

Worst in a lot of respects. I don’t want to go to China right now. I don’t want to I don’t want chai cam to run things. They don’t have a little root literal list Christian interpretation. They jumped on the other bandwagon and are doing the atheistic communist bullshit. You know, I mean, so to me that I don’t I don’t get the connection that you’re that you’re making there.

David Mathisen: [01:22:41] No, that’s okay help

Alex Tsakiris: [01:22:42] getting back to that without getting back to the question. I’m asking is. Okay. Who are they? Why are they here? And what’s their connection with?

David Mathisen: [01:22:50] Okay. So let me go to the let me go to the aliens, you know, you put up the interesting picture of Giorgio Tsoukalos there and I’ve met him at contact in the desert

Alex Tsakiris: [01:23:00] The point on the alien thing is that there’s a ton of evidence that points in that direction. Well when we say, oh there you don’t have to go there but you can’t deny that. There’s just a ton of evidence, you know part of your thing is that and this is like another minor point, but it’s one that I’d like to hear you comment on we all understand that people are in Stonehenge and they’re looking up at the stars we get that.

One of the like it’s little detailed point. It’s a David Matheson point they weren’t just looking at the stars. They were looking at the constellations, right? So constellations don’t mean anything. But there’s no independent meaning of the constellations. Why do they build these megalithic structures to look at constellations will because the constellations as you’re telling us have meaning well.

That kind of changes the whole thing bright because when you hear the kind of standard tripe about Stonehenge, it’s like well, that’s the, you know lunar eclipse and I’ll know all that goes out the window as soon as you say there were aligning with constellations. Same thing with the Giza Pyramids, right?

Ryan write it in. Oh my God, they line up a Ryan why that and the other image I have up here is the dogon, right? So you go to the dogon people and they say yeah what we did that cuz the star people serious came down and told us that so we have all this stuff that lines up in an all points in the same direction Ancient Aliens, and then you seem super resistant to going there.


David Mathisen: [01:24:39] Yeah, so I’m not actually resisted it going there. So you people can go to my blog and search for dogon and find blog posts. I’ve written about the dogon has more than one the dogon people more than one blog post and people can go and search on my blog for Ancient Aliens and find not just blog post but videos I’ve made about it.

So here’s why because I would argue. That star people or these encounters don’t necessarily. Equal extraterrestrials. I’m not ruling that out as a possibility if I’m an investigator if I’m Sherlock Holmes. I don’t go into the investigation saying well, I’m going to rule out the possibility that the butler did it.

I’m not also going to rule out the possibility that the police might be in on it. I’m going to have all those options open, but I’ll tell you that what I. Think is possible. Is that all this amazing? Correspondence is that we’re talking about the connections to the Stars around the world and The megalithic Monuments.

I mean, first of all the building of the Great Pyramid there slinging around some Big Blocks and there’s still controversy as to how those blocks got put up at those Heights because the ramps would have to be twice as big as the pyramids if it was ramps, but not only that like you said they’re perfectly aligned.

Almost perfectly aligned north south east and west and there are alignments with the shafts to certain stars and there’s even this is a mind-blower. Proportional relationships between the size of our spherical Earth and the size of the Great Pyramid and people and people who are skeptical of that might say yeah Dave there’s proportions between your house and the size of the spherical Earth.

We just have to find the right number 2 and we’ll get the proportion. Yeah, but they’re proportional to the size of the Earth by the number for 43,200, which is a processional number which relates to the. The equinoxes the procession of the stars and takes it’s very hard to even figure out the processional constant it takes.

Years and years. I still

Alex Tsakiris: [01:26:46] don’t understand why you don’t accept ET you kind of brush past the point of the appendix. I don’t accept its evidence is overwhelming now with him. So we have the dod videos of these aircraft and I have the guy on the the UFOs. I don’t know how people get to UFOs and accept that there’s UFOs that do these things.

We can’t do that that a human being can’t do and that they’re powered by somebody but it’s the you won’t go to ET I got Diane Passaic.

David Mathisen: [01:27:14] A who’s no stranger in the Hedgehog

Alex Tsakiris: [01:27:17] fillet on the show, you know, Jack fillet throws that stuff out there and that’s great. But that’s just kind of One

David Mathisen: [01:27:23] automatically equal look X.

Amazing craft doesn’t automatically equal extraterrestrials. Now, I’m not selling

Alex Tsakiris: [01:27:31] that Gap fill in that Gap then amazing craft from for throughout history. You know, Bob Lazar who now has come out and did that fantastic moving. He says, yeah, you know, here’s the craft. We had it at Area 51, here’s how we studied it.

Here’s how I understood the propulsion to work. I had on Diana up Ahsoka who you know is a PhD teacher she goes out in the. She finds the craft pieces because a guy goes and shows her and there’s all these kind of invisible college that knows all this stuff is going on. I just had Mariah Rodwell on last week who is a counselor for 30 years and helps people talk about traumatized helps people who are traumatized by their contact experience.

So, you know, unless you want to just take all that and pack it up in a box and just throw it all away. Then you got a big problem. If you don’t accept ET this idea that people throw around. They just throw bot Jack belay and they’re like, okay. So now I can I can go on like ET doesn’t exist. It’s all fairies and get that.

I know you can’t.

David Mathisen: [01:28:35] Hey, this is great. So I see you’re passionate about this Alex. Let me tell you. Let me ask you this. Would you discount the possibility that some of the UFO? hype and activity after World War Two. Why is this Ayah can that be considered as a possible explanation for some of it?

Because let me tie it back to the myths.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:29:04] Hold on. Hold on. Yes, the question. Let me answer. Of course. Everything is a psyop. Everything is is a control but what I just hit you with. Is the physical evidence so you might not like Diana Walsh Basilica.

David Mathisen: [01:29:18] I’m not everyone

Alex Tsakiris: [01:29:18] does

David Mathisen: [01:29:19] I’m not saying I’m not chewing

Alex Tsakiris: [01:29:20] out in the desert and she finds these pieces of a craft and they don’t analyze it and they say that and you’ve mentioned jock fillet.

I had jock play on you know, what he’s really interested in the same thing. She’s friends with with. Walsh Basilica is friends with it. He’s interested in craft, right? So there’s no doubt that that’s real. So the whole is there psyop is there Project Blue Book was it a complete cover up to they reach some point?

Here’s what the history that I think reveals is that hey, they were surprised when all this stuff happens back in the 40s like whoa, so they’re just kind of releasing it and then they’re at a junction where they have to go. Okay, which way do we go? Do we just kind of. The mind-control thing like which relates to the star myth thing and just go squash it and just go misinform and just deny deny misinformed misinformed.

Do we go that route or do we go this route of kind of embracing it and trying to understand it? Well, we know what route they went to and they just went the misinformation about but that doesn’t take away from the where we’re at today. We know that there’s a reality the Occam’s razor is that there’s a reality to it.

You can imagine all sorts of things but the evidence is overwhelming that that’s the reality.

David Mathisen: [01:30:31] Let me bring my area of expertise into it Alex since you know, I’m not I’m not I haven’t talked to Jacques Valais. The reason I brought him up was because he says. UFOs does not necessarily equal ET at least not in every case.

That’s why I brought him up but settings yachvili aside. I’m not relying on the authority of Jacques fillet. Let me talk about the star Maths for a second. It’s undeniable that many. Members of the UFOs must be ETS all the way down through history rely on or point to the myths and say the crossing of the Red Sea was caused by a UFO it parted the waters or the vision of Ezekiel.

Is describing an alien craft and yet in the language that they’re trying to understand and what I can bring

Alex Tsakiris: [01:31:25] him go there. I’m not I’m not going there but similar

David Mathisen: [01:31:28] Rafael has brought Al tells you that when he was first contacted. They told him come back tomorrow the spacecraft with the tall alien and said come back tomorrow bring your Bible and I’ll tell you all the things.

That we do

Alex Tsakiris: [01:31:40] want so what there’s all sorts of alien Cults. There’s all sorts of alien beliefs and there’s the whole

David Mathisen: [01:31:45] not announced the whole Anunnaki and stitching and velikovsky posits that a lot of these myths were caught were a lot of these stories in the Bible the sun Stood Still for three days that was because of Venus was swooping around according to velikovsky or the Anunnaki described in the.

Mesopotamian epic

Alex Tsakiris: [01:32:07] overzealous.

Can we get

that people can become so married to their one kind of hammer that everything looks like a nail, you know, let’s cut him some slack. Okay, because they were

David Mathisen: [01:32:19] into me everything in the myths can be discussed in the explained as Celestial metaphor. I can show you the crossing of the Red Sea.

I can show you the holy grail. And that what architect what

Alex Tsakiris: [01:32:32] does that get you David? I don’t know. Your back to kind of to me though. You just kind of back to pounding on the point that you that I considered at the beginning. It’s undeniable that there’s this connection. So the question is who and what who why and what is the relation to ET?

And what is the relation to evil? So great. I don’t deny it

David Mathisen: [01:32:56] good so therefore. If when? People start getting too close to what actually happened. We Trot out. Well, it’s all because of ancient aliens that will let that’ll lead us off into a rabbit hole. Well you roll your eyes, but I’m saying can we discount the possibility that let’s say severe skepticism will

Alex Tsakiris: [01:33:17] take me through your scenario.

Where does that lead you to

David Mathisen: [01:33:21] if I can take you away from the uplifting power of the myths and say well, let’s take it back to. We thought it was all about these external characters such as Jesus and Moses for centuries. We had them believing that that it was literal list. That kind of started to fall apart in the 20th century because of technology and other things going on.

So people started to our control system. I don’t know why you rolling your eyes because this

Alex Tsakiris: [01:33:48] is if you plug ET into the orchestrator of your Miss, how does that lessen your story in any way? It’s like you’re fighting it for no reason

David Mathisen: [01:33:57] because now it’s external again. These stories are now about well, it wasn’t a

Alex Tsakiris: [01:34:01] they’re not external.

Where are they from that? They’re not external? Where are they from?

David Mathisen: [01:34:07] It could be from the spiritual realm it could be

Alex Tsakiris: [01:34:09] what is the spiritual realm? Well,

David Mathisen: [01:34:11] let’s say let’s say that shamans or people I know that term is overused but around the world. There are people there are. institutions of the people who have.

contact with. The realm that’s not described by our materialist physics. Let’s just talk about for instance. You know, you have a Ayahuasca experience or mushroom experience and you’re encountering in you’re getting information that you wouldn’t get otherwise. Or people don’t need substances to do that drumming.

Is used around the world and drums were actually drumming was actually outlawed by the literal as Christians when they got up to Northern Norway. They took away all the drones from the shamans or but

Alex Tsakiris: [01:35:02] David this is what this is what I talked about all the time. I’m skeptical right? I got 200 shows on near-death experience because not because I care about near-death experience so much is because it clearly the crushes the materialistic Paradigm because now we have a medical reason for that.

So I don’t go over and take the DMT take the DMT experiments of Rick Strassman. And they reach those other Realms ET is there as much as well as all these shamanistic kind of thing. There you go. There you go not I mean you’ve kind of substituted one thing for another but it doesn’t explain the fundamental question of why would the spirits if you want to just put Spirits in there like you want to take E.T out and then you want put Spirits in.

Okay, that’s your choice. And then you want to put Spirits in tell me why the spirits did it in this. And and did it in the stars and then did it, you know with all these stories threat. I like your other explanation made more sense, which is hey it was some you didn’t say Atlantis but like some Atlantia an ancient civilization that went around in boats and

David Mathisen: [01:36:07] soul of explanations Alex.

I think we’re actually in violent agreement because. You just said we can get information from the other realm. So these star people you said look there’s been zillions of star people encounters around the world. Why did those star people have to come from the planet Syria if I go into the if I go into the realm of the Gods and I come back and described it as God’s where I come back and described it as something and someone says, oh that’s an ET gray or whatever.

It doesn’t doesn’t mean that that ET gray Came From the Star Arcturus.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:36:40] Those I get you. This is the stuff I talked about all the time, but that’s why I’m bringing it back to the star myth thing and I keep bringing up the same question and you don’t I guess we’re not on the same wavelength or answer it different ways.

But here’s the thing. It’s like why. Why is this particular esoteric wisdom and let me back up and say again Dave? You’ve you’re the guy you’re the man. You’re the one who’s who’s kind of stood against the tide and said hey, all this stuff is connected, and you got 5,000 pages. And now we have to go.

Wow. He did it. He single-handedly has established in made that undeniable. I’m going to the next question, which is think I’ve talked. All these I’ve talked to all these different people. I’ve talked to mediums. I’ve talked in near-death experiencers out-of-body experience Travelers DMT ethnic gin kind of people all these people shop shamanic people all these people who are accessing the extended realm.

I’ve never heard any stories about this kind of thing. There’s there’s nothing like this in any of the other literature where they come. Alan if you will, that’s maybe not right where they come down and they say we’re going to put this in like a nursery school kind of book and say here are the stars.

Here’s the story. Here’s what to think about that that is unique. There’s nothing else like that. So why did they do it like that? Do you suppose from that extended realm? Well that extended realm of ziti or not.

David Mathisen: [01:38:19] Right. I mean I actually think if we just take a breath we are talking about we’re we agree about all this non-materialistic Paradigm.

And if you go back to my blog post I talk about nde so bees because to explain that invisible realm it’s like, mr. Miyagi explaining Karate Kid Karate is invisible. That’s my the metaphor is karate is invisible. The myths are. There’s an infinite Realm. You could call it the infinite realm you could call it the dream time.

You could call it the other world. I’m going to tell you about it. I’m going to use this broad canvas of the stars because they’re perfect for explaining it. I’m not saying that the constellation Hercules is the god Zeus. The god Zeus is an entity that dwells in The Invisible realm and whether you want to say, well he’s part of your subconscious Dave.

Okay, I’ll grant you that. I mean but my subconscious connects to the realm of the Gods because our subconscious can somehow there’s people who woke up during the Vietnam war. This is a an illustration. I like to point out that shows that our subconscious knows a lot more than our mind can grasp and any material is still grant you that and say yeah your gut is gathering information that your mind doesn’t even pay attention to but our subconscious sometimes even knows things.

That it shouldn’t be able to know like I got a premonition that something horrible happened to my child and I woke up at 2 in the morning and later. I got a call from the Army and that was exactly when he was in this firefight in Vietnam, and I’m a few continents away from Vietnam right now. Well, how did my subconscious get that message?

Obviously? Through the realm of the gods or whatever round they want to call it, but it’s outside of the materials Paradigm. So how do I explain the rules are not necessarily the rules but the functioning of this invisible realm to people who their conscious mind or their egoic mind is going to choke on it.

Just like how mr. Miyagi taught karate to Daniel’s on his conscious mind would have choked on it. He said. Hold on. I can’t just tell you about how to stop Johnny’s kick. I gotta show you wax on wax off. That’s how they show us. Somebody who knew all this stuff about all the things you’re talking about.

Obes and E’s the invisible realm the fact that we can our subconscious can tap in somehow to the realm of the Gods and you can call it something else if you want said how am I going to explain the operation of this to people because they need it it’s profound but it’s also very practical. I’m going to use.

Mr. Miyagi wax on wax off. No, wait a minute. That’s for karate. Okay, I’m going to use the stars because the stars are cup from one. Horizon and then he cross across the realm of spirit and then they sink down into the Earth and that’s and it’s a perfect illustration of our condition here in this body of quote-unquote clay, which is water and dirt water and Earth.

That’s where the stars go down into they go down into the Earth. Seemingly from our perspective. So it is a perfect way of explaining it. That’s what I okay. And so that whoever these people were

Alex Tsakiris: [01:41:27] whatever these people don’t please don’t say whoever these people could you just you just had a God doing this and now you say whoever these people are do you realize that’s kind of confusing.

You can’t say it was some God sitting up on a cloud and one of the Gods decided. Hey my way of going to do this is going to be through. The star myths and that’s all I’m going to do it, you know, then you can’t switch and then say these people because then that’s kind of out of the so that it and when I’m pushing you on is that I’ve talked to all these different people who have accessed the extended Consciousness realm in that kind of way that your thing it doesn’t come up at all.

So, of course it that you all the

David Mathisen: [01:42:08] shamanic all the should read mircea eliade. He’s booked Shamanism know

Alex Tsakiris: [01:42:13] you’re misinterpreting your. What I’m saying what I’m saying what I’m not done you’re gonna you’re now going to tell me how the shamans had all these myths to which is back to proving to me that it’s undeniable that all them I get it I get it.

I keep coming back to why I keep coming back to why would they do it in this way? That is so, you know kind of uniquely peculiar in terms of how it’s done. I mean like,

David Mathisen: [01:42:45] In question when

Alex Tsakiris: [01:42:46] I’ve been asking for a freakin hour.

David Mathisen: [01:42:48] Well, I’m I was in the Infantry.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:42:52] I played football. I have a lot of head injuries.

I need

David Mathisen: [01:42:55] it explained to me infantry Simple Man. So look, I might not be romantic. I might not be the fastest one to pick up on the question. You’re actually asking but what I’m saying is why couldn’t this ancient culture is ancient sophisticated culture. That was so much more ancient than the ancient.

The earliest ancient Egyptian Dynasty or dynasty was ancient to us, but it was only 5,000 years ago Gobekli Tepe. According to radiocarbon dating of the walls must have been buried by 8,000 BC. So it was as ancient to the earliest Egyptian Dynasty as the earliest ancient Egyptian Dynasty is to us and probably more ancient.

So this more ancient culture. I say whoever they were because we don’t know who they were but why could they not have been using shamanic techniques? And I know that words are overused but these techniques that you talked about the end. He’s obese to tap into the realm of the Gods and put together this system.

Why did they put it together this way the same way that the same reason the mr. Miyagi taught Daniel saw in that way because our egoic minds which is a defense mechanism for dealing with this world that we found ourselves in from infancy. It defends us it’s there. It’s like doubting Thomas. Why was doubting Thomas?

So doubtful, his doubts were his defense mechanism from getting burned when they said we’ve seen Jesus. He said, yeah, right. I’ll believe it when I touch it. It defense. Our mind is a defense mechanism. Daniel son had all kinds of defense mechanisms because he’d been hurt he been he was full of doubts and he was a very untrusting individual.

Mr. Miyagi said the way to reach this kid. Is not through the direct route is through the indirect route and the people who put this myths together and I don’t admit that it had to have extraterrestrial from the planet circling Arcturus. It could have been a sophisticated human culture that was tapped into this and said, how am I going to teach this?

Well, we know that our mind. Our defense mechanism mind that deals with culture is going to choke on it just like Daniel son. So we’re gonna have to use the mr. Miyagi route and go around. Where did they get this incredible wisdom maybe from the realm of the Gods which they might have access through plants.

They might have access through breathing. I don’t know how they accessed it because it was so far in advance of ancient Egypt. Nobody can tell you for sure. But if someone tells you for sure it was our turians then my skeptical meter goes thing how the hell do you know is for sure arcturians well, Found a craft.

Well, what if I say that craft could have been Nazis you go. What do you mean Nazis? Well, they were working on some pretty Advanced craft and that was 1942. So don’t tell me you’re sure it’s arcturians. That could be a sign.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:45:37] That’s what I’m saying it for sure. But we’ve I think we probably frustrated the hell out of our audience, but

David Mathisen: [01:45:47] maybe so I’ve

Alex Tsakiris: [01:45:48] had a good time you

David Mathisen: [01:45:49] frustrated and I was not me.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:45:51] It was me I take I take blame, but

David Mathisen: [01:45:54] hey.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:45:56] I shall I get to do what I want once a week.

David Mathisen: [01:45:59] Like I said, I think every single individual brings out something different and you certainly brought out you took it in some different ways and I think that’s valuable. I don’t I don’t have any problem with confrontation because as you noticed I was there as you mentioned I was in the military.

I don’t necessarily love to go that route, but I don’t really have a thin skin. I mean, I’ve been called Everything while I was in, New York.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:46:21] Hopefully we are we are confronting on you know, like we both have said, you know, we’re 90% agreement and the most fundamental thing that you’re saying is this return to self is is Ivory capped the story over and over again, but it’s phenomenal to think that the.

Star myth hypothesis that you’ve established. So beautifully has this deeper connection with. All the great wisdom Traditions that tell us that the real journey is the journey to our self and that that’s the journey that we should put foremost in our life. And then there’s all these awesome awesome stories that are inspiring, you know, I mean, it’s not my cup of tea, but it’s inspiring to so many people and has been.

Throughout the ages. And is that what final question and then we’ll leave the skeptical board for a minute. What is what is your personal kind of? Way that you like to kind of learn and relate and I guess why do the Miss in allegory? Why do you think that that draws you in

David Mathisen: [01:47:39] because I like to see connections.

That’s a really good question. I like to see connections between things and that’s why metaphors do. They show connections between it’s like I want to show you this New Concept. I’m going to connect it to something that you know a little better to get you across the river to this other side and I’m going to use something that you some stepping stones that will help you across that River and that’s what the myths I think order and that’s what mr.

Miyagi’s doing with Daniel saint-denis on had no conception of conception. This martial art that he wanted to teach him. So he taught him through something more familiar and got him to the other side and it’s like a magical moment that everyone remembers when the lights finally go on for done Daniel sound like his mind jumps across the river.

Well these connections between the Stars. What are these constellations? If not, us connecting the stars and then connecting them to our condition in order to convey these like I said profound but also very practical truths about each and every. About yourself and then each and every other man and woman you ever meet that they have this invisible component as well.

And that’s what that’s why we have to to you know respect and you know, we had this kind of discussion that got a little heated but I recognize that every single other person that I meet is this other as his Divine components as down here wrestling with his physical world. It’s like that’s why they say no mascara more Namaste is.

I read that part of me recognizes that part of you and we’re down here wrestling with this. I’m not mad about I don’t get mad about that and I try and if we all took that view then they would be more. Better as a society. But anyway, I do actually have a hard stop in like four minutes. So if we could let’s

Alex Tsakiris: [01:49:21] do that, then I’ll tell you what, I

David Mathisen: [01:49:22] I think it’s been a great conversation.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:49:24] Oh, I so appreciate it and the work is phenomenal, I’ve said that enough.

So David you write some, as you alluded to, some fantastic blog posts that cover a variety of topics. You podcast as well. So people need to check out these books to get the kind of background, but where can they stay more up-to-date on your kind of minute-by-minute stuff?

David Mathisen: [01:49:48] Yeah, thanks Alex. So I have a website that is called So if you remember Star Myths of the World, its star You can really just search for my last name and the word stars and you’ll probably stumble upon something. But has tons of content in there are two exciting events coming up.

In October I’ll be at the Conference on Precession and Ancient Knowledge where Robert Schoch will be there, Carmen Boulter, Alan Greene, Christopher Dunne, Walter Crittenden. That’s October 4th, 5th and 6th and there’s a discount code. If you want to sign up just put my last name Mathisen in the discount code, you get $50 off on that one. That’s in Newport Beach, California. That’ll be cool. Lots of great speakers will be there.

And then there’s another event in April of 2020. That one’s almost sold out, it’s with the guys from Grime Erica. I know you know them and also a couple guys from the Brothers of the Serpent Podcast and newer podcast, really interesting. That’ll be in the high-altitude desert near Bryce Canyon. We’ll be going to Bryce Canyon to look at the stars, talk about the myths and all of these topics that Alex and I just discussed. That will be in April of 2020 and that’s So you can check out the details there on that. It’s almost sold out though.

Alex Tsakiris: [01:51:06] Awesome David, fantastic. You were great man. Thank you so much for joining me. 

David Mathisen: [01:51:11] Thanks for going in that direction and keeping me, you know, under pressure causes you to articulate more clearly what you’re trying to say. So I’m all for it.

[opening vid]

David Mathisen: [01:51:28] You’re using the old Socratic method on me there. I see from your ancient Greek Roots Alex. Alright, thanks a lot. It’s been really fun, and we’ll talk again.

Thanks again to David Mathisen for joining me today on Skeptiko. Final question I guess I’d tee up from this episode, and since I probably frustrated the heck out of Dave with this question, I might as well ask you all. Who created the star myths?

So, if you’ve listened to that show, I don’t need to add any more context to that, but I would love to hear your answer.

The best place, if you’re interested in interacting with me and other listeners is probably through the Skeptiko forum. You can find it from the Skeptiko website, and while you’re there, of course, you can find links to all our previous episodes, over 400 of them, all available for free download. You just get the MP3 and you’re off and can do what you like?

Thanks so much for joining me on Skeptiko. I do have, I think some really good shows coming up. I’m continuing to just kind of pound on these issues that are important to me. I’m trying to figure some stuff out. So this show might sound a little bit different from other book interview shows you hear. But hey, that’s kind of my agenda, if you will.

So, I hope you stick around. I hope you share it with anyone you think would be interested in it, and until next time, take care and bye for now.

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