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Cherylee Black is a trained scientist, NDE experiencer and laboratory tested for her ability to move stuff with her mind.

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Alex Tsakiris: On this episode of Skeptiko a show about psychokinesis. And science. And a show about love. I have an interview coming up in a minute with Cheryl Lee black. You may remember that. I mentioned her name during my recent interview with Dr. Dean Raden. We were talking about the connection between near-death experiences and psychic abilities and whether there was such a connection.

And we were squabbling over the question of whether there really is right and wrong,

, and I brought up Cheryl Lee because, well, she’s a pretty extraordinary person in a number of ways first from this. Kind of supernatural stranger things kind of way. She can move things with their mind. And she’s one of, probably only a handful of people in the world . Who’ve ever been tested in a laboratory to see whether this stuff is real. And it’s real. She can really do it.

And the other thing that’s extraordinary about Shirley is she’s a survivor of. Multiple near-death experiences. .

And we’re going to talk about how all that might relate to. The bigger picture.

So, let me start with a clip from stranger things. Remember the Netflix series, the kids, and the little girl who was MK altered by these evil intelligence agencies in order to develop her psychic powers. Here’s a couple of really short clips of her doing kind of this psychic stuff. They’re really short.

[00:01:48] Alex Tsakiris: Okay. So that’s Netflix, that’s Hollywood and here’s the real deal. Here’s Shirley Black from the upcoming interview.

Cause your feelings? If they got real intense, could cause stranger things kind of stuff, lights going on and off, you know, people feeling it, that kind of stuff. Right. That’s what you’re experiencing.

[00:02:09] Cherylee Black: Yeah. That, you know, you could scare people with it. I mean, even just spinning the wheel into the pinwheel, I’ve had lots of people in my family.

Who’ve seen it and said, oh, that’s really creepy. And they, you know, like they don’t say, oh, that’s really interesting and cool. They look at it and go, that’s really creepy, stop it,

[00:02:27] Alex Tsakiris: Tell the story about when you were a kid in school

[00:02:30] Cherylee Black: I hate that story. And

because that was just an event that kind of had me labeled as a monster for years in school and really opened me up to so much abuse from teachers And so there was a day when I was sitting there drawing in my sketchbook, trying not to be overwhelmed.

And the teacher basically hit me in the face. Through my sketchbook across the room, I guess, I guess nobody had tooled this particular teacher that this was allowable behavior. And I was just so shocked. And the sketchbook basically picked itself up and launched itself at the teacher and hit her in the back.

 

[00:03:16] Alex Tsakiris: (——) And here’s another clip where she’s telling a story about being in these laboratories. Where they’re testing her ability to do PK. Yeah. That was actually not UVA. That was people from the rind research center. It was a Jim carpenter who wrote the book first sight. Um, he basically kind of organized this thing where we all went to this really good Mexican restaurant and, you know, he just wanted to show people this effect.

[00:03:45] Cherylee Black: Cause he thought it was really interesting. And so yeah, we had the pinwheel on the jar, on the table in the restaurant and I got it to spin and then we were passing it around and everyone was getting it to spin inside the jar. And you know, people were coming over and looking at what was going on at the table, like it was, you know, , and it was kind of this.

Fun thing that everybody was doing.

[00:04:08] Alex Tsakiris: Okay. That’s that, but as I mentioned, This is really a show about bigger, bigger, bigger stuff. The stuff that really matters because this whole psychokinesis stranger thing superpowers. Once you get past the fireworks. Forces us to look at some really, really important questions about who we are about what really matters. And it kinda knocks the nerd bird, soulless, transhumanist scientist. On there, but if you really think about it, Here’s a final clip from the upcoming interview.

[00:04:45] Cherylee Black: And you’re approaching it from a let’s connect the dots and look for evidence, which, and I mean, there’s a scientist part of me. That’s like, yeah. But, and you’re right. If the pin was spins in the jar, then there’s something more to us,

[00:05:01] Alex Tsakiris: That’s it.

And if there’s something more to us, then I would suggest that the burden of proof is on those who were always fooled into thinking that there wasn’t more to us to put forth the best evidence that some of that more isn’t love.

[00:05:20] Alex Tsakiris: Stick around my interview with Shirley Black is coming up next. And skeptical.

Welcome to skeptical where we explore countries, heal science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers and their critics. I’m your host, Alex. . And today we welcome Shirley Black back to skeptical. Shirley. Welcome. Thank you so much for being.

[00:05:47] Cherylee Black: Hi, Alex. Thanks for

[00:05:48] Alex Tsakiris: inviting me back. So you thought it was going to do some long intro and then I tricked you by just immediately saying hi, but I am going to do a little bit of an intro because you joined me back for people who may remember or want to go back and listen on episode four 70 of skeptical to talk about your experience with psychokinesis primarily that’s what we talked about is your experience in the laboratory.

So psychokinesis just so we remember is we talked about it kind of in the stranger things thing, or the men who stare at goats, movie kind of thing, people who can do things with their mind. So in your case, the reason that these major laboratories where scientists, real scientists, like at the university of Virginia, or at Ryan or Warrenton and Canada or other places they wanted to invite you in, because you could Breely do this stuff.

And one of the experiments that you’ve demonstrated in these laboratories and other, other places where you’ve posted videos, there’s like this seal job. And there’s a little pinwheel in it, and you can like the girl on stranger things, you can do something with just your mind and you can make the pinwheel spin.

And that changes everything we know about science in some real, real fundamental ways. And we’re going to talk a little bit about that. Talk a lot about that, because that point that I just made there is really not argued. It just isn’t fully processed. And then the polit politics around science around that aren’t really processed.

And you’ve been on the front line of that for a number of years. You’re still a PhD candidate in good standing, even though you’re getting your PhD in geology, you were very involved with the scientific part of understanding this psychokinesis thing, this pair of psychology thing. And what goes on in these labs ma’am is everything I’ve just said accurate and correct.

Is there anything you want to change?

[00:08:12] Cherylee Black: No, as far as I know, I’m still a PhD candidate in good standing, but that may change after this comes out. Who

[00:08:18] Alex Tsakiris: knows?

Okay. Point number two. That you should know about Shirley. And this is all part of my long introduction is that she’s had near death experience. And I said that a funny way, because I was didn’t know how to say it. Cause when you say somebody has had three near death experiences, I know from experience that people freak out, a freak out and they kind of, they kind of, for some reason they don’t believe it.

You know, like if somebody says I’ve had a near death experience or somebody like, oh yeah, I’ve heard about that. I saw a video, I read a book. Yeah. Somebody says I’ve had three near-death experiences. Oh, come on, man. You’re making that up. That ain’t real, you know? Well, in your case, it is real. And if people want, they can go to, I ans the international association of near-death experiencers, I think are honored, uh, studies.

I’m sorry. Good. Yeah. Where you did a really terrific presentation. It’s up on YouTube, like a hundred thousand views. And what I loved about that presentation, let me pause for a second. I bring that up just so people can see it. You’re laughing. Cause I’ve just pulled up on the screen. If people want to share it, a presentation that you gave that ions. Terrific. You’re really a very effective speaker. You’re very articulate. You’re just smart. But you include it in here, I guess in a very nice non-threatening Canadian kind of way, uh, proof that what you’re saying is true and proof about some of the larger aspects of your near death experiences, that they really kind of fit this pattern in your life of kind of extraordinary experiences.

And I’m highlighting that by bringing up this little image where you’re showing like your second year, third grade report card, where the teacher has written, Cheryl Lee seems to be in another world at times. So the connection that I am making, because you have made it in this presentation and in your fantastic book, which I’m going to make sure one way or another, that thing gets published because it’s a very, very important book in my opinion.

But. You document this stuff, this stuff really happened. The stuff, the psychokinesis stuff really happened in the laboratory scientists have reported on it. Scientists have said, yes, this is the woman we’ve had in. This is the peer reviewed work we did here. We published it. And the case near death experience, it’s the same way you really did come very, very close to dying in your third near-death experience in a horrific, horrific car accident that they left.

You know, your husband at the time to say, come identify the body thing. There was no way they thought you were going to live through it. So that those near-death experiences are also connected in a way with the psychokinesis. And that’s another thing we’re going to want to talk about because that’s point number two of this whole journey, Ms.

Black is everything I said accurate and correct. So far number two. Yeah. So you really did have three near-death experiences.

So here’s the, here’s the clincher of this long introduction. So I just published an interview with Dr. Dean Ray. Sharon Lee has been a long time friend of mine through the show and not in a kind of waving our arms out there. I’m so great. I’ve done all these things kind of thing. Actually just the opposite.

I didn’t know really anything about her background. I was like, okay. Or somebody in the forum seems to know this stuff well, over the years, as I’ve come to know Shirley, um, more and more and more amazed at what her background is and what she’s knows at a very, very personal level and has experienced. So I’ve come to rely on her more and more in terms of just writing her emails and bounce it.

What do you know about this guy? What do you know about this thing over there? What do you think is really going on here? And she’s been very generous and very open about talking about that. So now I’m going to give her a chance to talk because what’s happened with the thing with Dean Raden, is it affected me.

I think a level that much more than it probably affects other people because there’s something fundamentally important about how we are to understand all this stuff that we’re talking about. Consciousness, extended consciousness. Morality. Who are we? Why are we here? How are we supposed to live our lives?

Is there good? Is there bad? Is there right? Is there wrong? Is there something more? Is there a light? Is there love when I set up this interview and I said, the things I want to talk about, you really set the tone again. When you came back to me and said, what I really want to talk about is I want to talk about love and that’s what I want to talk about because my, my issues with the interview that I did with Dean Raden is you can’t talk about love unless you talk about the moral imperative, unless you talk about there is light.

There is love. There is good. There is bad. So I’ve kind of laid out the whole interview. Now we just have to do it. So now I can really say welcome back. Uh, thanks for joining me. And now we can kind of jump into the real heart of this thing. Well,

[00:14:34] Cherylee Black: so now what do I say?

[00:14:38] Alex Tsakiris: I don’t know quite where to begin to be honest with you, because like one of the questions, one of the questions I have is, and it’s not even a question it’s like.

What can science do for us science can’t save us, but what can science do for us? And I guess if I was going to turn that into a question, is why did you think it was important for you to go and have this ability that you have , the men who serum, goats, PK ability, why did you feel you needed to go put that under the microscope or allow other people to put that under the microscope?

How does, how does it connect for you with what I’m talking about with love, with near-death experience, with all the rest of that?

[00:15:29] Cherylee Black: Well, at first, I didn’t really think it was connected to love, but it was, I mean, at the time I was working, you know, on my science education and I wanted to know that I wasn’t crazy.

Uh, you know, I wanted to know that everything that I’d experienced, um, well actually for a long time I wanted a cure. I wanted a cure for the experiences I wanted to prove to myself that, that this stuff was just nonsense because that’s what my education had kind of been teaching me. And then it didn’t seem to work out that way.

Like, you know, I, I went to Laurentian university and, you know, Dr. Persinger and bill roll were like, no, this isn’t fantasy. This, this is real stuff. And we’re going to study it and. I mean that first trip to Laurentian, that was a really big game changer for me. And it’s funny because so many pairs of psychologists had told me not to go there.

Um, you know, and yet that was a huge game changer for me because, because, you know, it taught me that you could study these things and that they’re Western reality, you know, to what was going on and that I wasn’t crazy. And it’s very hard to accept the love when you think you’re crazy, you know? Um, so by figuring out that you’re not crazy, um, then you can be open to the love really.

And so it, it was, I mean, science was kind of my way in. , but even then, like, you know, you could see, like, I didn’t realize that so much at the time. Like now, you know, since I’ve been talking to you and we’ve been kind of, you know, hindsight being 2020 and realizing that that person’s year was far more brave than I realized at the time that he was willing to actually study these things.

And I mean, he really had a hard time with his university. Did not want him looking into these areas at all. And, and it’s, you know, I mean he funded his own work. Which I mean, not very many professors will do that. Um okay. Is he just felt that it was so important and, and, uh, that, you know, that, that I had no idea at the time, just, just what a good person he wants.

Um,

[00:18:07] Alex Tsakiris: so I kind of see it differently in a way, because your story, your history to me is you’re a, someone who had extended, conscious experiences from a very, very young age, right? Yeah. Didn’t you have your grandpa at the, at the, uh, at the grave site, uh, really early, right? My misremembering that didn’t, you see, uh, a grandma, so I kind of got it, right.

It was pretty close. He had that stare, like, what are you talking

[00:18:43] Cherylee Black: about? No, I mean, yeah. You know, I did see my grandma when I was little and yeah, I did have those experiences, but, you know, I kind of went, it’s funny because before I had an education in science, I didn’t worry so much about having those experiences.

And then after my car accident and suddenly I was really, really super interested in science and it was really the education in science that was like, You know, you must be crazy. Like, you know, like it really didn’t fit with what the university was telling me. And on one hand I felt like the science was important.

Like, cause you know, I came back thinking the science is really important and, and on the other hand, the science is telling me you’re imagining things like, you know, what am I going to do? Um, you know, and it’s kind of funny because if I had actually looked into these things more, if I had known what to look for at the universities, I mean, university of Manitoba where I did my undergraduate degrees, they have a very large collection of spirituality, photographs.

And um, you know, I guess the first head of the college of physicians and surgeons in Manitoba, um, was known for holding seances. Um, and there’s a fairly extensive collection at the university of Manitoba that I had no idea was there while I was a student. And I, I wish I had known, you know, and it’s like, it’s a dirty secret of, of, you know, academia that it’s kinda like you, you don’t look at Newton’s other interests, you know, like, you know, like when you look at Newton and, and yeah, you know, you’ll, you look at gravity and things, but you don’t look at the fact that he was also interested in alchemy.

[00:20:41] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. I don’t know. Quite ready to take that. Cause when, you know, I don’t know that the interest in alchemy was that spot on either. I mean, no,

[00:20:50] Cherylee Black: but the fact that people do, you know, that, that it’s like only the accepted parts of them are allowed to carry on through history. And so you don’t realize when you’re a student, particularly as an undergrad, how much has edited before you get to it?

[00:21:10] Alex Tsakiris: Uh, well, I definitely think that’s true. I guess it’s, it’s your, it’s your story and your life, you know, and I’m reading it, interpreting it, but I got to say, I’m interpreting it a little bit slightly differently than you are. Although maybe the same is that you’re a person in this family who has these gifts that are unexplainable and a lot of people in your family, most people in your family are like, she’s weird.

We don’t know what’s going on. And there’s maybe one person in your family. Who’s like, no, she ain’t weird. She’s special. This is really a gift. And it needs to be, somebody needs to tell her it’s good. And it’s, it’s really important. So you go through this life kind of not feeling totally confident because this essential part of you.

Kind of not so well, yeah. Put down. Yeah.

[00:22:13] Cherylee Black: And it’s funny because when I look into the history of my family, like, I’m certainly not the first one, like me and, and you know, some of the women that were like me, I mean, one was like the first woman to, to be a doctor in the province that I grew up in, you know, to have a, have a medical practice.

And, and she was like, me and another one was, you know, a registered nurse who grew up, um, in a traditional Mennonite family that became a nurse and a private nurse of a millionaire and traveled the world and did things that were not really considered what you do when you grow up in a traditional Mennonite community.

Um, you know, and, and, and when she had dreams and everybody would be like, oh, she, you know, this is what she ha she dreamt about. And it was kind of an adult conversation. Like when I was a kid, like, you know, you didn’t really talk openly about what she, what she dreamed about, but clearly other people took it seriously even while they were cuckooing it.

And then I had an uncle who was horribly scarred, um, has a veteran of the second world war. And he actually ended up in a concentration camp. And, uh, you know, he saw the ghosts of his battalion. You know, he carried those with them until he passed away. But, but I mean, he was the first adult when I was a little kid that I remember talking about seeing ghosts, like cars.

And I used to wonder, well, I thought everyone saw them, but the adults just pretended they didn’t or just, it like it wasn’t talked about in polite company like sex, you know, like I just thought it was just one of those things. You didn’t talk about it openly, but that everybody knew it was there.

[00:24:05] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. So, you know, when you turn that into, like your near-death experience says, but in particular, your third near death experience where you almost died in this car crash.

So a couple of interesting things come out of that. And again, I tie it back to what I was saying at the beginning, you know, there’s this crazy interplay that we’re going to have in this conversation. The interplay is between science and spirituality. And I think science has a role to play here. That’s why we’re having this conversation.

Well, when you have your near-death experience, You don’t know totally how to process it, but you gain some benefit from some of the science of near-death experience that tells you that the aftereffects you’re having, which in your case is increased psychic ability, which has now been documented by other researchers into near death experience and said, well, Shirley, I don’t know if you’re experiencing that or not, but if you were to, it would not be all that uncommon that sometimes happens to people who have near-death experiences.

And that’s important information for you because we can hear from your story, how difficult it was for you to process that, change that going from a person who’s artistic and musical to a person who just wants to study science. And it’s like, why, why is that happening? And why am I having these increased psychokinesis powers?

Why when my first husband tries to kill me, does all the lights in the house go on and off. And he gets so frightened that he has to run out of the house. This is right out of again, some movie, but this is your life. And it’s super duper important as it relates to science and to sciences, fundamental assumptions.

So I want to start piecing that together. In a scientific way. How much did you know about the near-death experience after you had your car wreck?

[00:26:14] Cherylee Black: Nothing. I didn’t know. I, I didn’t know anything about it. And the first, first bit of information I got was from an, an army, a chaplain, you know, a Padre actually.

And, uh, and he like, cause I had questions and I, you know, I was in the military at the time and I had questions and I asked him and he told me that, well, he didn’t have a name for the experience, but he said that it was a common experience for people in the military who had almost died or had been, you know, in terrible combat situations.

And, and, you know, he said that this was actually a fairly common experience for people who’d undergone, you know, trauma and, and almost been killed, but he didn’t come up with a name for it. But what he did do is he said, we don’t want this on your record in any way. So I’m going to send you to a friend of mine in this, in this, uh, church in your community.

And we’ll just keep this quiet and you can go talk to this person and we’ll keep this out of your military records. Cause you’re not crazy, but we don’t want this on your own.

[00:27:30] Alex Tsakiris: Okay. In that partially, that partially answers it from one way. But see the thing that, that doesn’t, I mean, you know, this stuff is real, right? So this is another, I don’t know quite how to trust this brick and Shirley, you know, it’s real so that the chaplain doesn’t, uh, doesn’t know the Padre, he doesn’t know, he’s just repeating back and he’s following the procedures.

You seem ghost your whole life. So whatever it is you’re doing in terms of processing the new death experience and the near-death experience that you had, you’re processing it from your experience, right?

[00:28:11] Cherylee Black: Yes. But, you know, there’s this thing that I, you know, like the big difference between the near-death experience and seeing ghosts is that when you see ghosts, you will forget, like, there’s just some part of us.

And there’s some part of these experiences. Like if I didn’t write everything down, I, it just amazes me how much of it. I just managed to put out of my mind and forget. And, you know, like when I was writing my book, I went through all diaries and I was like, oh my God, like now I remember this because I’m reading this again.

And I, and, and now it’s like coming back to me full force, but. You push things away where the near-death experience, the weird thing about the near-death experiences. You can’t get rid of it. It, it has a hold on you and you carry it with you in a way that the other experiences aren’t able to stay with you.

[00:29:07] Alex Tsakiris: Okay. I, I, I don’t know. I don’t know that this is, this might be a totally useless interview for anybody, but, uh, but me, but me, because for me, I’m fascinated because see it doesn’t, it doesn’t sync up here again. It’s like, It’s like there’s two Hughes, you know, who are kind of being pushed in this different direction through this journey that we’re on.

Because the next thing that you talk about is gee, I’m having these paranormal experiences and I want, I just want them to go away, which I can’t really process on a complete level that you ever thought that was real. But, but let’s just take that cause there’s a lot of trauma it’s causing you in your life, but then too, you know, I’m going to agree to go to these laboratories and have them test this in this very, very narrow way.

Because here you are somebody who has this incredibly extended expanded view of these extended realms. And you’re gonna say, okay, you want me to spin a wheel under a class? Okay, let me see if I can spin a wheel under a class. I mean, that’s like a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of what this stuff is all about, but if you want me to spin a wheel under a class, okay, do you get how that looks?

Do you get, do you know what I mean, how that looks from, you know, if you really try and process your, the whole thing that you’re about, there’s this like a little bit of a disconnect

[00:30:43] Cherylee Black: it is, but you know, because at the time I was studying science, I actually really, really wanted to come up with a small repeatable.

Like I wanted it to be a small effect, not too big in effect. I mean, that was because I thought if it’s a big effect, people will be terrified of me. I’ll be like, I thought, I mean, I was worried. I’d be, I was becoming a monster, you know, like there, there is that feeling that, you know, does this make me a monster like this?

What

[00:31:13] Alex Tsakiris: if everyone has, ‘

cause your feelings? If they got real intense, could cause stranger things kind of stuff, lights going on and off, you know, people feeling it, that kind of stuff. Right. That’s what you’re experiencing.

[00:31:26] Cherylee Black: Yeah. That, you know, you could scare people with it. I mean, even just spinning the wheel into the pinwheel, I’ve had lots of people in my family.

Who’ve seen it and said, oh, that’s really creepy. And they, you know, like they don’t say, oh, that’s really interesting and cool. They look at it and go, that’s really creepy, stop it, you know? And so, so, you know, you don’t do it anymore and, and you don’t talk about it and, and they will, if you ask them, if they’ve ever seen it, they’ll deny it.

You know, that’s the one thing I find that, that, that if anything big happens, even people who are used to the little things happening, if something big happens, people who are close to me, um, they’ll forget the big things moving. Um, you know, uh, it’s just. Because it’s just too much. And so I didn’t want that.

I didn’t want to be a monster, like, you know, and I mean, now that I read some of the books, like the PK man, you know, like, like he did, whether or not he caused, you know, bad things to happen to people he thought he did.

[00:32:35] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. That, that would open up the whole can of worms. I don’t even want to go there tell, tell the story about when you were a kid in school and the book.

No,

[00:32:47] Cherylee Black: I hate that story. And

[00:32:49] Alex Tsakiris: why do you hate that story? Because,

[00:32:53] Cherylee Black: because that was just an event that kind of had me labeled as a monster for years in school and really opened me up to so much abuse from teachers and, you know, um, that, that really like I was, I was always bored in school and I was always overwhelmed cause I, you know, I’d had and your death experience when I was 10, um, my, my appendix basically burst.

And afterwards, like before that had happened, I’d been this really cute, popular little girl, you know, and I had lots of friends. And everything was really good. And then suddenly the, you know, I had this experience where my appendix burst and I got really sick. And then afterwards I was just overwhelmed by everything.

Like being in a room full of people was just an overwhelming experience because I would pick up feelings and emotions and it was too noisy and I just couldn’t handle it. And I would do everything I could to get removed from the classroom, whether I, you know, and you can only stay home with a tummy ache so often.

And you know, and so I started doing what I could just to get kicked out of class. And it got to the point where I was allowed. I was told, well, if you’re sitting and drawing in your sketchbook and that gives you that little bubble of peace, that you can kind of stay in the classroom, um, then whenever you start to feel overwhelmed, just take out your sketchbook and start drawing and we’ll cut you some slack in class.

Like that’s what I was told by this, you know, the school guidance counselor that I could sit there and draw on my sketchbook. And as long as I was keeping up with the homework and studies, nobody would, would bother with me. And so there was a day when I was sitting there drawing in my sketchbook, trying not to be overwhelmed.

And the teacher basically hit me in the face. Through my sketchbook across the room, I guess, I guess nobody had tooled this particular teacher that this was allowable behavior. And I was just so shocked. Like I was just, you know, I felt safe in school until that point. And then suddenly I wasn’t safe. And the sketchbook basically picked itself up and launched itself at the teacher and hit her in the back.

And after that, I was just, I was the school monster, you know, and I mean, that teacher actually ended up, uh, needing some psychiatric help.

[00:35:41] Alex Tsakiris: So Shirley let’s make sure we, we got that because I think it’s in a, it’s like a super important story. If it’s real, if it’s real, it’s really important. So how do we know that it’s real well, like I said, if you go to the ions video that you presented, you go back and you say, Hey, here’s when I had my appendicitis and almost died here.

All the lovely letters that all my classmates are sending me and all the rest of that. And then you also have, um, the other works from your school that would suggest that the story has something. Veracity to it, some realness to it. D is there anything else you could add that would be like, if, let me put it this way, if someone pushed you, because one they’d have to think it through and think how important that story is.

And we’ll explore that fully, but said, you know what? I’m in. If you can prove it, do you think you could prove it in the way that people normally think about it?

[00:36:50] Cherylee Black: I don’t really see how I could, because I mean, it

[00:36:53] Alex Tsakiris: was, could you, could you find other students and I’m just saying hypothetical, I’m not gonna, I’m just saying hypothetically, do you still know students who were with you in the class?

Who could say, I remember that day and I remember that book just picking itself up off the ground and Harry Potter style flying across the room. And I remember the commotion afterwards.

[00:37:21] Cherylee Black: I had one friend who saw it and she passed away. Um, like one friend that I still kept in contact with for the most part.

I mean, I was kind of a prior note, like nobody came near me and then even I started to doubt it for a while because it was just driven home where the teachers, this is not what happened. I mean, I remember, you know, my parents were basically tried to push into putting me on these seriously nasty drugs to shut me down.

Um, or I wasn’t going to be allowed to stay in school.

[00:37:55] Alex Tsakiris: And what did they tell your parents had happened?

[00:38:01] Cherylee Black: Uh, they told the parents that I was a bad kid and threw a book at the teacher. They didn’t tell my parents that she hit me. You know, like that was the other thing, is that part of it was completely like, no, no, no, the teacher did not hit her and nobody in this class will say that she did, you know,

[00:38:19] Alex Tsakiris: and, and well, hold on for a second.

I get you. But take that part of the story, because the part of the story we care about is that the bow was over on the other side of the room and they acknowledged that you threw the book at the teacher, they’re saying, yeah, she threw the book at the teacher. So you weren’t there to throw the book at the teacher, at least not in your physical form.

There is part of your consciousness that was there. So,

[00:38:47] Cherylee Black: but that’s well, and I mean, I didn’t think it was me doing it anyway because I just, you know, like I just thought that things just move by themselves. I didn’t, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t see it as something I was doing when I was that little, I just thought stuff move, but get it, get over it.

No. Like, I, I mean, I had it drilled into me that know that this didn’t happen. Like I said, the teacher needed psychiatric help. So maybe she, maybe she was dumb enough to admit the book moved because she didn’t want me in her classroom. Um, I know that I was taken out of class every, every Wednesday for like a number of years and sent a special testing that did nothing, but, you know, make me feel even more like a weirdo because everyone thought that there must be something really wrong with me that I had to go to the room with the two way mirrors

[00:39:46] Alex Tsakiris: week.

So what makes this, so what I push that? Good enough. So again, what makes this thing interesting in the scientific realm that we’re going to talk about is that eventually you wind up in a laboratory where there’s like, quote unquote real scientists, which I don’t know where we want to go with that, but there’s people who are saying, okay, let’s see if you really can do this PK stuff, which in and of itself would add validation to your earlier story.

Unless we think that you just, this is the only thing you can do is, you know, spend wheels inside of glasses. That’s what God has put you on earth to do. So tell folks again, in a way that they. Make it really believable to them and a very matter of fact way why we should, why we should believe that you really were in a laboratory and you really did spin a wheel that was under a glass.

[00:40:53] Cherylee Black: Can I have a two minute break? Sorry. I apologize. Sorry. I just needed a two minute break. That’d be right back.

 

[00:41:00] Alex Tsakiris: What kind of dog is that?

[00:41:03] Cherylee Black: He’s the last

[00:41:03] Alex Tsakiris: app. So,

[00:41:06] Cherylee Black: so apparently the, the tradition is that Tibetan monks, if they were too goofy and didn’t reincarnate the way they were supposed to they’d come back his last app.

So that’s

[00:41:18] Alex Tsakiris: a great story.

[00:41:21] Cherylee Black: That’s why you’re, that’s why it’s considered really bad for them to sell one. Um, that the original ones that came to north America were gifts from the, uh, from the Dalai Lama.

[00:41:34] Alex Tsakiris: Yeah.

[00:41:37] Cherylee Black: Cause they they’re thought to be reincarnated monks that didn’t take their studies. Seriously.

[00:41:44] Alex Tsakiris: God, I mean, you know, we could spend an hour talk and all that.

Cause it’s like in a way, that’s again, this intersection of science and spirituality and what we want out of science and then what we don’t get out of science, you know? So. We want to some way know whether there’s anything to that story at all. Right. I mean, we do, that’s kind of like a pretty incredible story.

And when science comes back and goes, well, you know, probably not for these reasons and they’re verifiable, then you’re like, great. But then when science goes one step further and says, yeah, cause we’re all just our brain and there’s nothing more. And you can’t really love that. Love that you feel for that dog.

That isn’t really real. I mean, not to completely switch gears, but, and then let’s just continue, continue with the story because where I was at and trying to this is that

well,

[00:42:51] Cherylee Black: yeah, I know, I know I’m difficult.

[00:42:54] Alex Tsakiris: Well, I don’t see it that way. I don’t see it that way. I, I don’t think you’re difficult at all. I think you’re incredibly open and incredibly brave and people say that a lot and it can mean a lot of different things, but you’ve had a lot of experiences that similar folks are just not able to process and they just run from completely and you are consistently throughout your life running into the fire, you know, there’s the fire.

And you’re like, okay, Let’s run in there and see what happens because that’s what happens when you go to these labs, because the, your experience in these labs, in these silo labs, where they’re going to do the men that stare at goats, and let’s be clear, cause we touched on this last time and people hear it.

And again, it’s one of those things that doesn’t fit into their paradigm and they just blow it off. But this is a lot of the ABC agencies, you know, Naval intelligence, CIA, military intelligence. It would be irresponsible for them not to understand PK because if you can spin a wheel under a glass, then who’s to say, you can’t stop the heart of Bladimir Putin in Russia.

Uh, it is, that is the, that is men who stare at goats. That is what that movie is about. And that movie is about what really happened in MK ultra program, where they said, Hey, can this guy stare at a goat and make the goat’s heart stop? So it would be, it would be irresponsible for us not to understand whether that could be done to us, which is always the excuse for us to weaponize it and do it to other people.

So when you were walking into those labs, that is. Part of the agenda and the way that that game works is some of those people in the lab know that a very, very, very small number, know it at some level, most of them don’t, and they’re just doing what they think is good, curious research, which it is, but there is always that shadow in that.

Um, now you don’t realize that I’m sure you didn’t realize that at the time you were just, this stuff was happening. You want to know as it happened, but you have at this point, a long experience, many times being invited to these labs around the world and some of them you don’t go to because you’re not totally comfortable with.

Yeah. But then it’s their goats thing. But so when I say it’s not so much, like you’re difficult to talk to now to the contrary, it’s like, you’re probably one of the most important people in the world to talk to about this stuff. That’s the difficult part is we could explore this, like in a million different angles and all of them are super relevant, super important on a geopolitical pair of political scientific, spiritual angle.

So I’m just struggled with, what do I ask next? So tell us about PK in the lab.

[00:46:09] Cherylee Black: Um, well, you know, sometimes. Sometimes the PK does not cooperate in the lab. I mean, sometimes, you know, um, I think one of the experiences I had was at the rind research center and the first day I got there, one of the people that I was going to be working with, and I’d never met him before and I didn’t know him beforehand.

I mean, I went there to work with, , Robert and Suzanne may and they’re lovely people.

, so working with them was great. , and I think the first time I went to the Rhine research center, it was just with them for the most part. , and that was really a positive experience. The second time I went, there were some other people that kind of attach themselves to it.

And one of which on the very first day I was there told me that all psychics are cheats and it kind of let you know, and that was not, not, you know, and it’s like, okay, well, even if you think that, do you really want to tell the person who’s come here? Um, you know, spending her tea time, uh, coming to this laboratory to do some work.

And you’re going to tell her that basically everyone like her is a charlatan.

[00:47:26] Alex Tsakiris: So you like, even there there’s, there’s so much to talk about there. So first break it down. Ryan research Institute is one of the first and most famous parapsychology research institutes in the world. It’s spun off from duke university.

And this guy, Ryan, what was his first name or initials? He always goes anyway. Yeah, JB. Right, exactly. And they did a bunch of these experiments. And one, one of the experiments they’re best known for is the kind of Zener cards, you know, where they have the five card, you know, it I’m to explain it to people.

You know, you’ve seen, they have the five different cards, the moon, the star, this and that. And one person holds the card and says, see if they can telepathically communicate it to this other person. Now, if you go and look at that research, which in a way is kind of related to. The work that Shirley is telling us about psychokinesis does is different, but it’s all in this category of outside time space, outside of the mind body limitation that we normally associate with the brain.

So anyways, they did this experiment successfully, and it’s not a hard experiment to control. You know, like you’ll, this is all this stuff has been polluted by the phony skeptical, which is an operation kind of thing that said, oh my God, you know, there’s so much room for cheating. Well, there’s not, you just put people in two different floors of two different buildings like they did at the Rhine Institute, uh, way back in the day.

And there’s no opportunity for cheating and what they did in one of their experiments, their men, they had 143 consecutive successful trials. So one person was able to say, okay, I see a moon. And then the other person on the other, in another room in another building was able to say, I think it’s a moon.

And they got it right. 143 times in a row. So there’s a lot of this kind of research that’s buried in these walls. And then it’s interesting that they bring you out there. They’ve done others. Demonstrations of PK, the ones I’ve seen online, other people can find it where they have it more kind of from a technology standpoint, they have this machine that people can show that it generates and it moves across the room again, PK, and then they have you.

So I think, uh, ed and Suzanne may are probably better known for near-death experience, but they’re definitely, well-qualified in pair of psychology research in psy research. And that’s why they’re at Ryan and they know all this stuff. And then the last thing I can’t resist commenting on is there’s always this infiltration kind of counter intelligence thing.

We’re in these places that are supposed to be studying one thing, you have this person that’s, I don’t know why they’re there, you know, to it, like you said, it’s not even, it’s not even on a science to say a priority. I think you’re fake. I mean, that’s not being objective in any way. So that’s the, you know, Rupert Sheldrick, Richard Wiseman, like that’s not adding to it.

That’s just doing something else that we can’t understand inside of that. But so tell us specifically what happened at Ryan? What did they want you to do? Was it spinning a glass, spinning a wheel inside of a glass? Was it something else? How do they set up that experiment? How do they control for it? How do they do the rest?

[00:50:56] Cherylee Black: Well, the first time I was there with Robert and Suzanne, most of what we did. Basically spinning the pinwheel inside the little jar and, and, uh, oh, I should have read up because we did a lot of different experiments with that, where they tried different types of sensors to see if they could see something else going on while it was moving, you know?

Um,

[00:51:19] Alex Tsakiris: well, T it’s just, uh, again, cause we’ve talked about a bunch of times people can find these videos on YouTube. If they look really carefully, I think they can find one or two. Your videos are up there.

[00:51:31] Cherylee Black: Probably. I think if you go to it’s Robert Mays, not ed Mays. I’m sorry. Yeah. Different people, but uh, Robert and Suzanne and, uh, they’ve got, oh, I’m trying to think of the name of it.

If you look at Robert’s interviews on skeptical, I’m sure his websites listed there somewhere. Cause Dave,

[00:51:55] Alex Tsakiris: so we’re, we’re talking about something that number one people don’t know, or if they do know they’ve seen it in kind of a David Blaney kind of magic fake way. And there’s a bunch of fake videos on the entertainment videos on the YouTube, on YouTube saying, isn’t this cool.

Then you put a little pin and you put a little wheel on it and they put a jar, but you can’t really see the T you know, there’s all ways to fake it. But if you bring it into a lab, it’s a very, very easy experiment to control. Right. It really is.

[00:52:27] Cherylee Black: ,

because it’s like, well, if it’s, if it’s inside a closed container, I’m not blowing on it and you can check to see if it can, like you can take a oh a hairdryer and blow air at it and you can see, well, it’s a close container. You can, you can, uh, rub it with static reducers to get the static electricity gone.

Um, you know, the second time I went back, I actually brought, um, an ugly wheel and they had, they had actually purchased their own ugly wheel because they wanted me to use

[00:53:04] Alex Tsakiris: what’s an ugly wheel. And why did Dean Raden tell you to use it?

[00:53:07] Cherylee Black: Oh, okay. Well Dean told me to use it because he said that they had one in their lab and no one had ever been able to get it to spin when it was in a covered container.

[00:53:19] Alex Tsakiris: And what isn’t.

[00:53:21] Cherylee Black: It’s basically a very fancy pin mill it’s basically, and it’s supposed to be controlled for, for things like static electricity and, and um, oh, what do you call it? Uh, con convection currents, things like that. But, but basically if it’s underneath, underneath that, like, you know, a glass or whatever, if it’s under, if it’s in a sealed container that kind of makes it difficult.

Dean says they’d never had anyone who could move it under a container.

[00:53:54] Alex Tsakiris: So, which is going to be interesting as we, as we go into this four and a half hour interview,

I am apologizing because I’m not going to be able to stop. But here’s the reason that I would add to everything that you said. It’s maybe obvious for some people, but not for others. The other thing I can do is I can take the ugly wheel. I can put it down on the table. I can put it, or I can put it inside of a sealed glass container and I can videotape it for.

And nothing ever changes during the sunrise, sunset, the lights going on, it never moves. And now I bring in this person, Shirley, who has said that she can do this and she makes it happen. I said, Ooh, that’s interesting. Now I remove her from the wood, from the room and I can let it go for another week and it never moves.

And I bring her back in and I can do it. This would be a way of having a very controlled experiment. And it’s kind of along the lines of what Dean Raden has done. And then you’d say, okay, I have my control time when nothing is happening and nothing does happen. And then I have my effect time when this person who claims to be able to introduce this effect is doing it.

And it’s measurable. That’s very simple science and it’s very powerful science and that’s what they did, right.

[00:55:22] Cherylee Black: Well, yeah. And I mean, they did other controls as well. I mean, actually the real, the skeptical guy at one point, he put the ugly wheel, um, basically on tin foil that was grounded. Cause he, he was convinced that it was just electricity.

No, no, but this is funny. This part is really funny. So what he did was he was randomly, um, Connecting like connecting the little thingy so that it was grounded. And then unconnecting it. And asking me to say, if it’s easier or harder to move the little wheel around and I could tell him every single time he unconnected it, because it worked the opposite of the way he decided it should.

He said that when, when it was grounded, it should, it should be, you know, harder to move. And it was actually easier, like way easier and which really annoyed him and, and his, and because he was so convinced of his take on the science, his explanation was, is that I psychically knew when he was connecting and unconnecting the grounding device.

And so that it was just me being an evil psychic and telling him the opposite of what was actually happening, just because I wanted to piss him off, which was so, so he said I was a hundred percent on it. So I was like the best psychic ever.

[00:56:46] Alex Tsakiris: Well, that’s, that’s just an amazing story because it really gets to the issue.

[00:56:52] Cherylee Black: If you want confirmation of that, he even talks about that in a video that the Ryan research center put out. So it’s not just me saying it. He actually does admit to it in a video.

[00:57:03] Alex Tsakiris: I want to see that video because yeah. This, this kind of does kinda jump us into the conversation that we’re going to have about the interview that I had with Dean, right?

Because this is 0.1 is the, I wouldn’t believe it, even if it was true phenomenon and you can hear it. I first heard it from Rupert Sheldrake. He tells the story beautifully where he’s doing a presentation to the Royal society in England about his amazing science and a guy. What a thought Royal society guys in England, Oxford Cambridge, actually where Rupert got his education stands up, turns his back to the presentation, to the data that’s being presented and says, I wouldn’t believe it, even if it was true and.

This is something that we’re familiar with on a kind of personal level, in terms of just friends and family who have any sort of beliefs about all sorts of political or religious beliefs or anything like that. It’s paradigm, it’s dogma, doesn’t change. And we look for science. I look, and this is my upset with the Dean Raden interview is I always felt that science was a chance that we had to kind of go past that to kind of say, well, wait a minute, we all know that we have prejudices.

We have biases, but we can control for them a little bit with the science thing, but what your experience tells us. And I think in a way, the interview with Dean Raden tells us is that doesn’t always work exactly the way that it, the way that it should, because these guys in the PK lab, I mean, in the S the silo lab, if anyone in the world should be willing to have their paradigm shattered, they should, they’re setting themselves up, say, come shatter my paradigm, and then you share their paradigm.

And they’re like, I wouldn’t believe that even if it was true, and this is where we’re, we’re going to consistently be stuck with science.

[00:59:26] Cherylee Black: Yeah. Oh, I know. Well, and you know, one of the things that the PK, it can be really a total jerk. It acts sometimes is because like the one researcher who, who first off said, oh, you know, all psychics are cheats and, and was very uncomfortable.

Every time that wheel spun, you could see it made him uncomfortable. And what was even funnier was that there were times when I’d be across the room and he’d go close to the wheel on the table and, and it would start spinning and he jumped back and it was like, it was like, yeah, it’s just going to do that every time.

You’re going to hear that, because that’s just funny,

[01:00:09] Alex Tsakiris: you know, you, you also tell the story and this is just kind of anecdotally fun and true in a, in a way that is kind of unexplainable, other than there’s something in the extended consciousness realm. That is that trickster. But you related to me the sorry, that. As you do this, it opens up this ability and other people in some way, I say that not knowing what that really means, but you do PK and suddenly people around you.

Cause I, let me give it a try and then they can do it too. And then you go out to dinner with the guys from UVA and everyone’s passing the jar around and everyone’s like, Hey, I did it. I did it. Give me another drink. This is great. And then the second part of that story you tell is a few weeks later.

They’re like, no, I can’t do it anymore. You know what I wonder if I really ever could do it? You know, it’s like, yeah,

yeah. That was actually not UVA. That was people from the rind research center. It was a Jim carpenter who wrote the book first sight. Um, he basically kind of organized this thing where we all went to this really good Mexican restaurant and, you know, he just wanted to show people this effect.

[01:01:22] Cherylee Black: Cause he thought it was really interesting. And so yeah, we had the pinwheel on the jar, on the table in the restaurant and I got it to spin and then we were passing it around and everyone was getting it to spin inside the jar. And you know, people were coming over and looking at what was going on at the table, like it was, you know, um, and it was kind of this.

Fun thing that everybody was doing. And apparently even like the ugly wheel, like, cause thrawn bought their own ugly wheel. And so they had it after I was gone and they said that for a while, people could come into the lab and get that ugly wheel to spin under the container and that worked for maybe six months or so.

And then it doesn’t seem to work anymore, you know, like it worked for awhile and you know, everybody was kind of believing in it for awhile and then they just kind of stopped believing in it.

[01:02:19] Alex Tsakiris: So one of the things I want to draw out and I’m not doing a great job with this cause I, I, I, I, I don’t know. I just don’t know.

Uh, th that’s like too, too complicated, but one of the things I thought was interesting in my talk with Dean was one of the really brilliant things that Dean has done with these experiments, which again are fundamental to science because the fundamental assumption of science is that your soulless, biologic robot in a meaningless universe and nothing you could do could possibly matter because everything that I got to say in saying this Dean totally stumbles on the second part of this, because . I’m the one who brought you into the conversation with Dean Raiden, because I said, Hey, I got a friend, Shirley block, most amazing PK person in the world. It’s done all this stuff and all these laboratories. And she’ll tell you, she’s had these kinds of abilities for a life and they are connected to near death experience.

And she’s had three near-death experiences. And by the way, her near-death experiences are not substantially different from thousands and thousands of other new death experiences. Of course they’re unique, but they have a lot of these similarities. The kind of things that scientists would generally think are important when they measure those things.

When we go out and talk to people about their experiences like we do, if they’re depressed or if they’re anxious, or if they’re grieving, we rely on their reporting, their self-reporting of their experiences in order to find commonalities in order to treat in order to develop an understanding of that.

So this idea that we would collect these accounts across the spectrum and analyze it is pure science is very mainstream science. So when I bring that up to Dean and say, so this has been reported that there is this connection between the extended consciousness realm. And he goes, no, haven’t you heard.

The latest study on near-death experience says that it’s just the EEG extending beyond death. And I’m like, dang, ha how can you be saying, how could you be not following the science? That is a ridiculous explanation. It’s been proven over and over again. And then I talked to my friend mark Ireland, who just had an interview with Penn.

Bellamo the cardiologists famous cardiologist from the Netherlands. Who’s published some of the most scientifically rigorous work on near death experience. And he’s written up the whole thing saying, well, that’s bullshit that doesn’t really explain the EEG that they’re finding. Doesn’t really, wouldn’t really correlate with what we found in other medical conditions, the EEG of people under, near death experience.

It doesn’t fit with the overall phenomenon as we understood it. It just doesn’t fit. Doesn’t fit, doesn’t fit. So here I have Dr. Dean Raden, who I have so much admiration for doing really, really, really sloppy science because he stating something as if he knows. And it’s just not supported by the best science he’s doing, what everyone else is doing with his stuff, which is to say, I wouldn’t believe it if even if it was true, I don’t want to believe it because it contradicts my worldview.

It contradicts what, how I want to see my place in the world. I want to believe in this kind of Luciferian transhumanism kind of do without wilt create better than the creator gods. And I don’t want any data that would kind of push me off that. And if I get that data, I’m going to have some really creative ways about spinning it in some other way.

That’s what I see happening in the interview with Dean Raden. But that’s what I see happening in a broader sense in your experience with both PK in the lab and NDE in the broader sense of how it fits. So I don’t know what part of that we’re going to tackle and how you want to tackle it, because I don’t want to pull you into my kind of issues with this stuff, but we do have to talk about, we do have to swing this thing back into talking about love, and we have to understand that we can’t talk about love until we nail this down.

Otherwise we’re just talking about love as a. Construct as a social construct as a, you know, it’s not real, it’s just a biological bullshit kind of thing.

[01:07:03] Cherylee Black: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. What, isn’t a social construct these days, but you know, I mean, essentially you’re looking at when did Paris psychology go from looking at being part of the human potential movement, which, I mean, the human potential movement was, you know, be your best self, be loving connect with, you know, like let’s connect and be loving.

And it went from that to being more of the trans humanist. , you know, humanity is done. Let’s transfer our consciousness into robots now and let’s get rid of love because love is what makes us do all the bad things, you know, love is what makes us like they, they transhumanism has no room for love it.

Absolutely. You know, like their basic idea. It seems to be that, that, uh, humans are just really, really horrible creatures and that it’s our desire to have children and form communities. And you know, that that all leads to having wars with other communities. And it leads to all the bad stuff in the world.

And that humans are just so bad that we have to give up all the good stuff to get rid of the bad stuff. So we have to give up the love. Like that’s what they’re saying is, is that you have to give up the love to, to get a world that’s peaceful

[01:08:45] Alex Tsakiris: CNI. I think that that both of those, uh, miss the point, I think the human potential movement missed the point.

And I think the trans humanism movement misses the point because the point to me is really at the root of Dean Brayden’s work and at the root of your work. And that is what is love because, and another way of stating the, what is love thing is the way that I put it to Dean and Dean immediately got very, kind of was pulling back on the issue.

I can actually, I’m going to pull it up and play it here.

[01:09:30] Dr. Dean Radin: Yeah. You’re talking about issues of morality and ethics and, uh, it’s a, it might be related to all this, but I’m, I’m not sure I would go there except for, with one proviso. And that is, um, uh, if you completely adopt materialism as the, your way that you’ll understand reality, then that leads to a picture of the world was, which is nihilism, which means there, there is no ultimate purpose to anything, uh, when, when your body dies, your dad, that’s the end of it.

Um, and, and is collected into this Quip of, uh, he who dies with the most toys wins. That’s gives rise to the modern world that we see today, where essentially businesses is extractive. It’s taking things out of the natural world, turning into something else and then selling it to you. Well, that’s not sustaining.

[01:10:26] Alex Tsakiris: Okay. So this is really the issue right there. And that, in that I would say it’s like so many things, most people are going to listen to that and they’re going to be nodding their head, like yeah, yeah, yeah. All the way. I would suggest that it is logically inconsistent, incoherent in that, you know, the morality question is at the center of this and that the big morality question is, is there good and bad?

Is there good and bad outside of the moral construct? Because you just said something, you know, you said, Hey, everything’s a moral construct these days. Ha ha. Well, that’s always been true. Right. We understand that is, is it okay to kill somebody? No. Well, what about in bore? What about in self-defense? Oh, well then maybe.

So everything has that element of moral construct. The philosophical question that we’re supposed to be answering in science, that Dean, I always thought was at the core of his thing is of course we get that part. What we want to know. Is there ever any time when there is some aspect of it, even the smallest part.

That is more than a social construct. Is there ever anything more? And he’s saying he’s contradicting himself because he’s saying, well, I think that we would want to do these good things. Why would we want to do, if it’s purely a moral construct, then all that environmentally sound stuff that people get all excited about.

Doesn’t really make any sense. It’s just a moral construct. It’s just people agreeing, but shouldn’t we save the planet. Why? Well, because of our kids. Why, why, why, why, why anything? If there isn’t at the core of it, some kind of moral sense of this is good. This is bad. And I can’t believe that he. Kind of has conflated those two in a way, but then again, I can, because I just see everybody doing it over and over again, you have to be kind of a purist, radical philosopher to see that this is the core question.

Is there a moral imperative? Of course there’s a moral imperative. That’s what the near death experience tells us. And it tells us as clearly as it could be. It’s the number one thing that people go back and say, there is love. There is good. There is light. It changed me. You can’t have all that data like at 90% and then turn around and go, well, I want to believe that even if they, even if they told me so.

[01:13:22] Cherylee Black: Yeah, no, I, I would totally agree that love is, is a real thing. And you know, it’s funny when I was, when I did my first university degree, it was fine arts degree and the, uh, the fellow who supervised my thesis there, he, he kind of, he told me the secret to the universe when I was just a teenager. And basically he said that there’s no art without love.

And, and he said that really, you know, good art and bad art, he said that, you know, drawings on, on, on a piece of paper. What, what makes one drawing, um, have an effect on others? Is love is, is the, you know, like you have to do, if you’re going to be an artist, you have to put your love into your work or it’s crap.

That’s. I mean, that was how he described it. And I didn’t really understand that until I was a lot older. That really it’s it’s the love you put into things is what makes it meaningful and, and gives it an impact in the world. And love is a real thing.

[01:14:40] Alex Tsakiris: You know, you keep saying that, how do we know that that’s true.

How do we know that? Because we have to consider the alternative to that is that love is merely a biological function of your brain. It’s this soup of chemicals that you’re swimming in being released inside your body. And we can there’s correlation there. Right? We can see that we can shoot people full of these chemicals or measure when they’re full of these chemicals.

And we can measure, we can ask them their feelings and they feel more quote, unquote, love. How do we know there isn’t anything more to it than that.

[01:15:26] Cherylee Black: Well,

[01:15:27] Alex Tsakiris: I mean, we’ll give you a hint.

[01:15:29] Cherylee Black: You give me a hint. You’ll give me, well, I mean this a near death experience, or I guess I just don’t doubt it. So it’s not like I’ve had to look for them,

[01:15:39] Alex Tsakiris: but, uh, it’s in your lab, it’s in your PK lab. Well, let me play another clip here and ELC, you don’t have to agree with me. No one else does

All of the experiments involving mind and matter are essentially asking the question is mind con is it causal or put it in broader sense? Is consciousness causal in the physical world? Does it play a role other than within the body? And so one way of thinking there it is. I can use my intention and make something happen with a hundred percent reliability.

So I Chanel demonstrate that, uh, right arm move up. Well, it did that well, it’s just a mind matter interaction. My intention is made something happen. The question here though, is what else can I do? Is it purely something within the body or does it act at a distance? So the non-local aspect of it is saying that at a distance, my thoughts can influence something else and we can measure that it actually happened, uh, what makes it, and that’s, that’s a non-local and space.

So stay with me here. There’s a leap of logic, but it really isn’t a big one. Just a lot of people don’t want to go down it. And that’s that. So what you proved in the lab directly is what he’s saying, right. And he proved it one way and he did it that way for a particular reason, because he, he framed up his experiments inside of the double slit experiment, because that’s what science was ready to take.

They said, okay, we’ve seen that thing done. A thousand times. We’ve seen that trick done onstage a thousand times. And he said, ah, but you haven’t seen it done this way. And then he does the double slit experiment and he does the shows the entanglement thing and the coherence thing.

He showed us the eye dilation thing and all that, and everyone goes, Ooh, wow. Now, if he really wanted to get , he’d have Sheryl Lee spin the wheel up dead serious spin the wheel is a thousand times more powerful in terms of its power to convince someone than anything that Dean has done, but that’s okay.

And that’s why the experimenters that you did do it, then got to go don’t don’t stop it. I know I asked you to do it, but now it stopped doing it because I can’t handle it anymore. Right. I mean, it’s a more powerful experiment.

[01:18:11] Cherylee Black: Well, Dean’s had other people in his lab that could move stuff in, like do the PK stuff.

Like I wouldn’t have been even the first, but he didn’t, he, he explained to me that it was just incredibly expensive to do that kind of experimentation to a standard in which he would be willing to put his name behind kind of thing. But certainly, certainly I would not have been the first person going to California to do that.

And I mean, and, and, you know, and I mean, and I’m certainly not the only one out there who could, and you know, and I’ve talked to other people. It’s funny because after I did that ions video, there was another fellow, um, Sean McNamara, Okay. Who saw the video and thought, gee, I wonder if I could do that. And he found that he could.

And so he’s actually teaching classes now because he thinks it’s a cool thing. And he’s like, you know, been to some labs too. And you know, I think that he’s had some frustrations in terms of dealing with researchers that it’s almost like the better you results, the less they want to do with you.

[01:19:26] Alex Tsakiris: Okay. Let me try and continue to stitch this together Here is my friend of me, Michael Shermer, talking to Joe Rogan about life after death, a book, I interviewed him on the show about, and he completely failed. I mean, he misquoted all the researchers that he was quoting in his book. And I pointed that out to him and Michael in his typical way, just handled it with the.

Ease and the sidestepping? No, just the kind of panache, you know, kind of like a, wow, well, that’s an interesting thought you’re having there, but, uh, here’s, what’s really kind of the thing. So this is a Michael Shermer on Joe Rogan to Luciferian guys talking about do without Wilton. I see you left seat. No one else. You get the joke. No one else gets the joke, but it’s not really a joke because if you’re looking at the world this way, there’s only a couple of ways to divide the world. And that’s the Gnostic Luciferian ways.

One why divided the light loves the other way to divide it. And it really is a lot more complicated than that. It really is that simple. Okay. Take it away, Michael. But if you think about it, but from a simple perspective, the entire universe is in your brain and when you cease to exist, the university’s is to exist.

Let’s just sort of true by definition. He goes a little bit further and says, you know, that consciousness is everything. And that we bring into existence material stuff by thinking about it or observing it or whatever. And here’s some quantum physics experiments that are really spooky and it’s like, okay, time out.

You know, quantum physics is weird and spooky consciousness is weird and spooky. That doesn’t mean they’re connected. That is a classic classic Michael Shermer because of course he gets it wrong. And that’s why I played the first clip with, uh, our friend Dean Raiden, because experimentally Dean Raden has falsified what Michael Shermer is saying.

And Michael Shermer, isn’t Michael Shermer. Michael Shermer is the stand in here for science, for neuroscience, for the paradigm that they’re propping up. Right? So the important part is that experimentally, every which way Dean has falsified that this quantum physics, mumbo jumbo, that Schermer, that Schermer keeps alluding to is the foundation of our modern technology.

It’s how cell phones work it’s house, uh, Elon Musk shoots his satellite internet to everybody. It’s at the core of all that. It’s not woo. And then when you take it and you apply it like Dean Raden did, you can show that there is the kind of connection between consciousness and this quantum effect of the observer effect and entanglement.

That’s exactly what he proved in his lab. Let’s let let’s let Joe take it away. One step further into a pure Luciferian nonsense. No, we just say, we don’t know why don’t we speculate on the possibility of consciousness being some sort of ethereal thing or something that exists outside of the Bible. We don’t know. Okay. The reason that we don’t is we’re fine to do that, but what we want is something more than that.

We want to know in the way that you are speculating, because we are forced to speculate in our life. Our life demands that we speculate. Is there good and bad, or is there not good and bad? Is, is it a moral, is there a moral imperative or is there not a moral imperative? Joe can talk about speculating, but he’s again is misunderstanding.

He’s conflating the real issue you choose with your life, whether you believe there’s a moral imperative or whether you don’t think there’s a moral imperative. Joe Rogan, Michael Shermer. And unfortunately Dr. Dean Raden are choosing to. I believe that there is a moral imperative by default, then they are living their life as if there is not a moral imperative.

There is, it’s a binary thing. You can’t have it in the metal. What did you get? Do you get what I’m saying?

[01:23:51] Cherylee Black: , well, I don’t think anyone would have kind of connected the dots that you do to get there, but how

[01:23:59] Alex Tsakiris: else, how else do you connect them? I don’t really, I mean, honestly, I don’t understand the, I don’t understand the other connection. What would it be?

[01:24:06] Cherylee Black: What to understand that there is a moral imperative?

[01:24:09] Alex Tsakiris: Well, so the thing is, you know, are you Lissa fairy and Gnostic? Do what they’ll wilt create better than the creator gods? Or are you, well, God is really somehow driving this or is it all I have to do is look to the light and do the right thing. Also I have to do is do the right thing and to tell the truth, all I have to do is treat other people the way that I know is the right thing, not the social construct of what it is to treat people the right way that what Trudeau says is to treat or Biden is to just know in my heart.

What the right thing is to do. I mean, this is not complicated. Why are these guys making it complicated?

[01:24:56] Cherylee Black: Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, with Trudeau, he, uh, he’ll say one thing and do another, oh, are you frozen? Oh, you’re back. You’re back.

[01:25:09] Alex Tsakiris: I’m trying to give you a chance to talk. I get excited and I steal the mic.

[01:25:14] Cherylee Black: That’s okay. That’s okay. I don’t, I don’t

[01:25:17] Alex Tsakiris: we’re at the we’re at the core part of this thing is because you’re, you’re not seeing it exactly the way that I do. You’re you’re making it to me. I don’t, I don’t understand how this is at all complicated.

[01:25:31] Cherylee Black: Well, I don’t think it’s complicated for me because, because I’ve experienced the big love.

So I guess, you know, and I just, I see it and like everything. So it’s just like, it’s there. So what’s the problem, you know, and I know that that’s not how it is for everybody else or, or, or at least, you know, for a lot of people, it’s not that way. Um, and I don’t know. I think people used to have an easier time connecting with that and, you know, it’s like we’re setting up our society to take us away from it so much, you know, with the computers and everyday.

[01:26:20] Alex Tsakiris: You know, I agree with that part of it, but like the interesting thing in our conversation here is like, I can see it in your body language and in your eyes is that it’s an experiential thing for you.

And it just, it just dominates what, what you’re about, you know?

[01:26:40] Cherylee Black: Yeah. And it’s hard and your experience and you’re approaching it from a let’s connect the dots and look for evidence, which, and I mean, there’s a scientist part of me. That’s like, yeah. But, and you’re right. If the pin was spins in the jar, then there’s something more to us,

[01:27:00] Alex Tsakiris: you know,

[01:27:01] Cherylee Black: there, there is something more to us,

[01:27:05] Alex Tsakiris: that’s it.

And if there’s something more to us, then I would suggest that the burden of proof is on those who were always fooled into thinking that there wasn’t more to us to put forth the best evidence that some of that more isn’t love. Because I think some of that more is love is real love is not the social construct love, but of real undescribable love.

[01:27:40] Cherylee Black: Yeah. Yeah, no, like I said, it was like, my art teacher told me all those years ago, it’s. Love is what makes things great. You know, you know, love is what transforms things and, and makes real art possible. Um, and you know, it’s it, it’s one of those things that, I mean, I found in the laboratories, like I know, cause it’s, you’re right.

They try and subtract love when they look at it in the laboratories. And perhaps that’s the reason why I found that when I go to a laboratory and get good results that they don’t want to see me again. Like I think that’s part of it is that, is that you’re right. On some level, you kind of have to acknowledge that because the, because the wheels spinning in the jar, that that love is a thing.

[01:28:40] Alex Tsakiris: It’s funny how all these guys ultimately come back to death because that is what it’s all about. That is the ultimate fear that they’re trying to escape. That’s what they’re intellectually trying to wrestle to the ground that people like you, there’s no issue. There’s no issue with, with death. There’s no barrier.

And for me, from a logic. Philosophical, non experimental. There’s no barrier to death. I have zero fear of death, zero fear of what comes after. And I do feel compelled to try and be a better person because I do see it as a continuous journey and something that I will be accountable for. Again, this is obvious stuff.

How is Dean missing this? How has he done this brilliant science and is failing at the big questions that is the I’ll stop there. How, how does that happen? How does that happen with the other scientists you’ve seen?

[01:29:46] Cherylee Black: You know, I, I think right now people are just like with everything that’s going on in the world that I think people are just starting to give up on humanity.

Like that’s, I mean, to me, that’s what transhumanism is really about. It’s, it’s giving up on the love. It’s giving up on humanity. Cause you just think that it’s better to be the Borg. You know,

[01:30:13] Alex Tsakiris: I completely disagree. And I think that comes from the perspective of someone who is in the love. I think the driving motivation is fear and control, fear of their experience with.

The ultimate annihilation of who they are, which we are all facing and an indeed to somehow in some way, take control of that to create better than the creator gods to find a way out on the backend.

[01:30:44] Cherylee Black: Okay. So you think it’s kind of like an arrogance?

[01:30:47] Alex Tsakiris: I think it’s no. Well, I think it’s an arrogance based on fear and my supporting data for that would be, this has gone on through the ages.

It’s really not anything particularly unique about us. They’ve always all these guys in that camp have always said the same thing, all the magicians. So I always said the same thing, all the esoteric people, all the, uh, Allister Croley types, you know, do without wilt take, you know, make you into you create better.

I keep saying it create better than the creator gods. I don’t think that. I see, like, just when I say that to you, there’s just like this blank stare on your face like

[01:31:29] Cherylee Black: that.

[01:31:31] Alex Tsakiris: How does that make any sense? What would I possibly create that would be better than the light then God and love? What could I possibly, I don’t, you know?

Yeah. There’s a blank look on your face, right? Yeah. Well,

[01:31:48] Cherylee Black: I mean, that’s why this conversation is difficult because I don’t, I don’t get, get like why they would want that. But, but you’re right. I think a lot of them are certainly going there. Um, you know, like, I mean, you’ve been seeing in pop culture, like I just want, not, not that I’m a fan of the latest star Trek, cause it kind of sucks.

But you know, like in the last episode of discovery this season where there, you know, the aliens are a collective and they don’t understand that there’s, you know, many, many people as opposed to just one, you know, one collective person and in there, and they’re a good alien that, that, uh, you know, cause they’re just one consciousness type of thing.

And it’s like, individuality is okay too, you know? Cause that’s part of it. Like I didn’t, you know, I didn’t come back from my NDE thinking that I wasn’t an individual. I mean, I’m part of something bigger, but you know, I can also be me and I think all the different expressions of me are good.

[01:33:00] Alex Tsakiris: Well, this is one of the things that came up in the interview with Dean, you know, that I think is going to throw a lot of people for a huge loop.

And it should, because again, the art aspect of it is kind of interesting. When people start talking about their art, then they’re freed up to talk more freely and that’s what Dean does. And he says, Hey, this hive mind thing, this is the way to go. You know, we figured out how to jab you in the arm and change your DNA.

And wouldn’t it be cool if we could change your DNA so that you were a hive mind rather than this individualistic kind of thing. And you can’t, uh, kind of a priori say, that’s, that’s crazy Dean. No one would ever want that. , you can’t be a Luddite and say that somebody isn’t going to try and do that because as soon as we get the technical capability to do it, which we already have, by the way, someone will try and do it, the, oh, that’s what drives the moral imperative.

The only thing you can really ask is is that what I should do right now is that the best thing for my soul right now? That is the only question and deed doesn’t seem to be tied in, tuned into that question is that if it happens or not, you can’t control that, but do you want to be the guy to do it?

[01:34:26] Cherylee Black: Yeah.

I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, maybe someday will, do you ever watch that? Um, oh, that black mirror where, you know, there was an episode where there were kind of two societies, one that had, had gone for technology and one that had kind of rejected the technology and, uh, , and they showed how just, uh, you know, addictive, the technology was the teenage girl coming to the society with technology.

Suddenly she wanted it all and they used it to turn her against her mother. And it’s just such a horrible, like, horrible, sad episode, but it’s very true. Like is the technology around us, you know, turning us against family and turning us into something else. And they, you know, and like, you know, maybe that’s why I’m so weird is because I don’t have a cell phone.

[01:35:16] Alex Tsakiris: Well, didn’t you say there is, uh, some folks in your family where, what, uh, Mennonite, uh, what w were they kind of, uh, turned their back on technology to kind of like the Amish?

[01:35:28] Cherylee Black: Yeah, not, not quite as much like Mennonites and Manitoba certainly use technology, but you know, there are members of my family who are not vaccinated and for anything like of any kind and.

And has, you know, I mean, everyone, my personal belief is everyone should have the choice that to make their own decisions. I mean, my government doesn’t share that opinion right now, but, you know, um, but yeah, you know, and that’s kind of a scary thing in the world is that, uh, that people are having their choices taken away.

[01:36:09] Alex Tsakiris: And do you think that it all relates to the conversation we’re having here?

[01:36:14] Cherylee Black: I think, I think it’s part of it. I don’t, you know, I think all of these things are connected, but, but certainly this idea that, you know, the government doesn’t want there to be individual choices and that they’re making choices.

[01:36:28] Alex Tsakiris: So here’s the connection for me. And again, it gets back to the blank stare in your, in your face is that for people who are completely grounded in the idea that there is more, and that there’s a way to connect with that more.

And that way is just to access the light and to continually access the light at any time, whenever you want, they don’t want to control other people. They just don’t, it’s just a different mindset. They’re like, well, why that person is doing wrong? Well, why would I want to control that? Maybe that’s part of their journey.

You know, it’s like when you talk to people in different wisdom traditions who are truly wise, cause there’s a lot of people in different wisdom traditions that aren’t that wise, but like there’s some Buddhists who are pretty wise. And when they talk about the worst crimes that they see, whether it’s, you know, pedophilia, murder, whatever.

They talk about it as a way of just, well, they’re confused, not they’re bad, they’re evil than need to be thrown on the fires of hell. They say they’re confused. And to me, that’s such a subtle and important shift. It’s the, of course there’s a light, of course there’s a moral imperative. Of course we have the ability to choose it.

Anyone who doesn’t choose it is just a little bit confused on their journey. So when to me, all these questions are so easily resolvable. Is it okay to force people to take a jab? No. I mean, never, ever, ever is it okay to decide that, you know, our species is over and the next species needs to come and I need to be a part of it by reprogramming everyone’s DNA.

No, that thought never even enters your mind. If you’re open to the light, you just don’t the equation. Doesn’t add up that way. Do you, uh, do you agree with that? Or do you think that,

[01:38:31] Cherylee Black: oh yeah, no, I agree with that. And it’s like, you know, many of the truckers who went to downtown Ottawa are coming back because it was such a loving experience.

Like the first three weeks they were there, it was like this giant N D. Was enveloping that community. I mean, they were feeding the homeless. They were, they were cleaning up the downtown, the crime rate dropped. Like I, I, you know, the, like, it was just this huge sense of community and love and people who were coming across Canada, one radio producer came in because she wanted to see what was really going on.

Cause she didn’t believe the news. Cause obviously being in media, she understands how much fake news there is. And you know, particularly in Canada, because it’s all state sponsored news now other than a few independence. And she went there and she posted this video and she says, there’s just love here.

This is the most love I’ve ever felt. It’s just, it’s just everything here is love. And it was like, that’s why the government had to, you know, bring in the Calvary and trample people with horses and, and kick veterans who were wearing their metals in the ribs and, and breaking bones and, and arresting people.

Like it was so horrible that they would do that to such a loving group. But from their perspective, they had to stop the love because that’s, they didn’t want people thinking that, that they could, you know, be free to live in that light. You know, that, that’s how I really see what happened here. And they’ve made sure that people know.

Afraid like, you know, by law, by closing bank accounts and, and, or freezing bank accounts. I mean, they can’t do that to organize crime here, but they did it to hairdressers who gave 20 bucks to the, to the truckers convoy. Um, and, and clearly it was about, they had to destroy that love and make people afraid to express that kind of love.

[01:40:45] Alex Tsakiris: That’s quite, uh, quite a leap. No, it, it is just in the sense of, you know, I hear you on one level on another, on another level, the collective always breaks down for me because there’s all kinds of contradictions and counter evidence of, you know, how do you run a country? You know, how do you run a province?

We do want safety. We don’t want marauding gangs driving through the streets, shooting people, right? So there is a role for, uh, for controlled. So that’s why to me, the collective slips through my fingers, What I focus on is from an individual basis. It’s so clear. , the point that I guess I was trying to make all along, is that my conclusion from all the things I’ve learned is number one, we’re all leading rich spiritual lives.

And, and that’s like, that’s like controversial or counter intuitive to the Luciferian, uh, to the scientist, to the Michael Shermer. Uh, I don’t know if it’s counter to what Dean Raden thinks, but we are all leading rich spiritual lives. And when you fully process that, it’s like, you know, the guy who was on that horse who trampled that Mohawk woman that

[01:42:19] Cherylee Black: was leading you is

[01:42:21] Alex Tsakiris: leading.

He is leading a rich, spiritual life, no different, no different than the rich spiritual life then that you and I are leading.

[01:42:31] Cherylee Black: But can you imagine the amount of pain that would have caused, you know, like to come back from doing that to someone else? Oh my gosh. Like, no, I, you know, I’m not saying that they’re, that.

They don’t have souls and exp in spiritual lives either. I’m just saying that it’s just, it’s so sad that they, the, you know, they’re going to have to work to come back from that now. And, and, but what I was going to say about the trekkers is they, they keep coming back to Ottawa now, like they keep having these little secret reunions because they want to experience that love again, you know, like it’s like has Nandy, or I still like going back to the scene of my car accident, like I’m drawn back there and those truckers are drawn back here.

You know,

[01:43:22] Alex Tsakiris: I get that. I just, that’s where the scientist in me pulls up short and says, I can have my, no, I, I, totally appreciate what you’re saying. And I value my personal beliefs about that, but I’m very, I kind of draw a line in terms of, uh, speculating about what that might might mean for the collective.

What I will go to is the, say the cop lives a rich spiritually. And if I just leave it at there, it opens up a lot of possibilities for me to judge in a different way. I won’t say, not judge, but judge in a different way in terms of what that experience might mean for him in his spiritual life. But if we don’t allow for the fact that everyone is in that spiritual life, then we’re not having that conversation.

[01:44:16] Cherylee Black: Well. Yeah, yeah, no. And I agree with you and let you know, and you’re right. People will do like, you know, what’s more soul killing than cancel culture, you know, like going on the internet and canceling somebody who, for what I mean, who knows what reasons they’re going to cancel somebody for, I’m probably canceled now.

I’m sure. But, but you know, um, like that experience of going on the internet and anonymous, none of us really attacking somebody, um, just cause you can like, like those people have souls too and soul experiences and you know, like, you know, that they’re probably in some way causing themselves pain by doing that later on that they don’t realize yet, you know?

And yeah, these are all like, we all do bad things. We all do bad things and I’m certainly no Saint. And you, you have to kind of that that’s part of the journey too, is how do you come back?

[01:45:17] Alex Tsakiris: So how do, how do you go forward? So you said, how do you come back from that? How do you go forward? If you, if you have this expanded understanding of things like you do, what does that mean in terms of how you go forward and your life? I mean, what are, what is driving you in terms of that, understanding that deeper spiritual truth as it, and that intersection with that deeper spiritual truth and the connections of being the stranger things gal?

[01:45:51] Cherylee Black: Well, I guess the reason I said come back is that, you know, when you’re in that NDE, you, you kind of see who you are and when you hear it’s like, you kind of move away from that. And it’s like, you know, some things will take you away from it. And some things will bring you back to it. So that when I’m saying, you know, how do we come back from it?

It’s like, you know, you want to get back to yourself like that, that love at the core of yourself that you’re trying to find yourself again. Um, so really, I mean, it’s not, you know, like when you say moving forward, you’re like going forward in time, but the gain is an Indy year. You’d kind of have to say, well, yeah, time is kind of.

Uh, social construct

[01:46:45] Alex Tsakiris: time as a social construct.

So are we going to, are we going to get that book published or not? No,

[01:46:55] Cherylee Black: probably. Yeah.

[01:47:00] Alex Tsakiris: Well, you’ve been, you’ve been so awesome and super, and I so appreciate, you know, all the conversations I’ve had with you and all the email exchanges I’ve had with you. And again, I don’t know if, uh, you know, how people will process some of this stuff and with your permission, I’ll edit it into a,

[01:47:20] Cherylee Black: yeah. I don’t envy your editing.

[01:47:25] Alex Tsakiris: Thanks again to Shirley Black for joining me to dance skeptical. The one question I tee up from this interview.

Is the, so what question.

So you didn’t know psychokinesis was real, but now you do. You weren’t convinced that near-death experiences were really all that, but now you are. So what.

Let’s say you’re a military intelligence guy and you’re tasked with.

Defending my life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness. Well, I kinda do want you to do that. So let’s say you come to me and you say, Hey. I need a little leeway.

But this MK ultra stuff, if I’m really going to do my job. What do I say? Am I okay with that? Are you okay with that?

Let me know. Let me hear your thoughts.

Lots more to come. Stay with me. Until next time. Take care. Bye for now.

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