Dr. Jeffery Martin, The Finders Course Works, Sorry Haters |406|
Dr. Jeffery Martin thinks he has cracked the code to well-being — an impressive list of researchers agree.
![](https://skeptiko.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/406-jeffery-martin-skeptiko-300x300.jpg)
photo by: Skeptiko
Intro
Meow. What a bitch, am I right?
That’s James Franco from the movie The Interview.
No, you’re not right. He’s not being a bitch. He’s completely right.
He’s motherfucking peanut butter and jealous.
He’s not jealous.
Talking about haters.
Now, the interview I have coming up with Jeffery Martin is quite long, extensive, talks about a million different things (including his new book, The Finders). But one of the points I had to pull out, because it just intrigues me, is the hater aspect of it.
Here’s a guy, who by all accounts, has made some major strides in advancing the ball, in terms of our understanding of consciousness and more importantly, our understanding of how the transcending of consciousness, in a kind of non-dual way, relates to wellbeing.
So, there’s some social science research combined with some practical shut-up and meditate stuff that is truly stunning. But, haters gonna hate.
Alex Tsakiris: It’s so unique what you’ve done, we just can’t stress that enough. Whether people like it or don’t like it, whether you’re that grumpy Buddhist neuroscience type who’s sitting there going, “This isn’t it,” or whether you’re a spiritual seeker who’s so attached to your own tradition that you feel like this guy is going to take the secret sauce out of what you already know. There are all sorts of reasons to be a hater on this stuff, and I’m sure you’ve encountered all of them.
Jeffery Martin: Yeah, we have a scientific framework, not a religious framework. I’m not a religious scholar. We have had such a massive amount of hostility directed at us in recent years as we’ve conducted these experiments and as we have been, sort of more routinely transitioning people from these various systems. And we’ve done, I feel like a lot of outreach. We’ve allowed a lot of people from those systems to use our programs for free or even subsidizing them in other ways or even adapting things in other ways and allowing them to run them in person, because they’re more comfortable running things in person. I feel like we’ve done as much as we can do to really sort of reach out and yet there’s still just such hostility that comes from those folks. I mean, how happy can you really be if you’re that hostile? If you’re really experiencing this stuff, it’s hard to be that hostile.
Like I said, there’s a lot to this interview and I’m tempted to stack up a bunch of clips, so you listen to, what I think are all of the most important parts of this interview. But I’m not going to do that, I’m just going to throw it to the wind and see what you pull out of it.
Stick around, my interview with Dr Jeffery Martin is up next on Skeptiko.
[box]
Listen Now:
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Subscribe: RSS
[/box][box]
Subscribe:
[one_third][/one_third] [one_third]
[/one_third] [one_third_last]
[/one_third_last] [/box]
Click here for forum discussion
Click here for Dr. Jeffery Martin’s Website
Read Excerpts
Alex Tsakiris: Today’s guest has a new book titled The Finders. Now, let me read you a couple of blurbs from the back of this book. The first is from well-known neural psychiatrist, Dr Peter Fenwick.
“If a Nobel Prize existed for psychology, the work done by Dr Jeffery Martin and his team would be a strong contender.”
Again, that’s from Peter Fenwick.
Next from well-known consciousness researcher Dr Allan Combs.
“In this book Dr Martin takes his place beside William James and Abraham Maslow to give us one of the most important and groundbreaking works on consciousness and human potential.”
Heady stuff. Dr Jeffery Martin, welcome back to Skeptiko. It’s so great to have you here.
Jeffery Martin: Thanks so much, it’s great to be here. It’s wonderful to see you again.
Alex Tsakiris: Likewise. And I’m not really trying to make light of that at all, I think that that really puts this in context. Whether you agree with those blurbs or not, they’re blurbs unlike blurbs I’ve read. “Nobel Prize” “William James, Maslow.” What does that feel like for you?
We’re going to talk about this Finders Course. We had you on a few years ago, you were in the middle of it. You had it up and going and it was running but it just keeps gaining a lot of momentum. What’s going on Jeffery Martin?
End 00:01:31
Start 00:09:21
Alex Tsakiris: I remember the first time that we met, which is n ow probably five years ago, I can’t even count, but that was your vision right then and it just struck me, and it was awesome. I think it was, somebody needs to have that vision but your vision was, you’re sitting around with a bunch of people saying, “Hey man, come and check out my little [unclear 00:09:38] here and let’s get a few people together to do a course,” and Jeffery Martin’s going, “Yeah, but what if we turned on a billion people? What if a billion people woke up, what would that be like? How would that be?” What would the economic model for that be? What would the technology model for that be? What would the data from that be?” Do you know what I mean? And not talking about it in some new-agey, kind of the consciousness of the planet shifting, but more from a kind of Silicon Valley marketing, put it in a spreadsheet kind of thing. No, what would that mean if a billion people made this kind of transition that we say we can measure?
So we say we can measure these kinds of things like wellbeing in these different ways and we all accept that we can to some extent, and then you’re saying, “What if that shifted this way for a billion people?” That’s pretty audacious but you’ve been true to it. You’ve been true to it from the very beginning.
That said, recap for people because I think it’s really important. If someone did nothing other than the first phase of this work, it would have been a huge contribution, a huge contribution. The contribution that everyone sits back and says, “Well, somebody should do that. Somebody should do that. Somebody should do that.” And you did it, in terms of going into all of these communities that say they nurture this enlightenment awakening thing and saying, “Okay, great, who are they? Who are the people among your community who have achieved that?” and then you went and talked to them. And this has been years ago, this was at the beginning of your research, but how many of those people have you talked to and systematically tried to understand what they’re doing? Which is Phase One, we’re not even going to get into Phase Two yet.
Jeffery Martin: Yeah, Phase One involved, in some cases those long format interviews, those 6 to 12 hours, really digging in interviews. In some cases repeating those for people. So we have some longitudinal research subjects that we still will check-in with, to this day, in an in-depth kind of way.
Then, a lot of that was giving people a lot of the gold standard psychology measures that were out there, across a wide range of sub-psychology disciplines, from wellbeing and positive psychology type stuff to developmental psychology, personality psychology, psychopathology stuff. You name it. And also physiological measurement. So lots of brain stuff, heart rate, breath, breath rate, breath gases, GSR, you name it.
One thing that we haven’t made it to yet, I think even when I talked to you last, I was sort of hoping to make it to there, because my friend Deepak Chopra had been harping on me about it at the time. He’s an MD, he’s a doctor, and he’s still a doctor. People think of him as like this author or whatever else, but at heart he’s still basically a physician.
So he was like, you need to collect blood on these people and all of that. And we actually have never gotten around to that. I would still like to get around to looking at genetics and looking at genetic changes and looking at blood changes and stuff like that. But I’m sort of more on the neuroscience, electrons side of the world, not so much the wet lab side of the world.
So yeah, we did all of that. There were about 1200 people who participated in some way in that initial phase of the project, that we call Phase One of the research project. So it was a lot of people. It was across every, as far as I can tell, across every major and most major(ish), minor(ish) spiritual and religious traditions, but also beyond that.
End 00:13:29
Start 00:20:07
Alex Tsakiris: The work that you’re doing, you do approach it so much like a social scientist on one hand and then on the other hand, you’re fully in as a subject, as a seeker and you wear those two hats and you wear them quite bravely. I love that about you.
The methodology that you were just mentioning, the more I learn about your methodology in some of the presentations you’ve done and talk about it, we could talk probably for hours on some of the subtleties of what you’ve discovered there and how that is important in understanding your work. But I’ll just throw out a couple.
One, I love these talks that you give, and you can see, you get pretty passionate about some of these things, but you’ll talk about trusting the current experience of that participant in these surveys. So not what they thought 30 years ago when they started their practice but what they experience and think now and maybe you can talk to why that’s important.
And also, like you just mentioned, separating that from what they’re supposed to believe, what their tradition teachers, what their text teach. You seem to take great pains to really develop a methodology that needed to focus on the data in a particular way in order to get some of the questions that you wanted answered, and I just think that’s awesome. Do you want to speak to that at all?
Jeffery Martin: Sure, I’m happy to speak to that and anything you really want to talk about, it’s great. That’s right, so I intentionally did not read anything. I haven’t read any of my subjects’ books, even though I often would leave their houses with their books that they would give me as a gift, hoping that I would read it probably. But I didn’t read any of them. And the reason that I didn’t read any of them is because our project has a very specific philosophy around that, in terms of a scientific philosophy if you will, and that is that what I really wanted to get at is lived experience.
So, I know that I cannot, I know just from sitting down, if it takes 6 to 12 hours to get to a point where you think that you probably understand enough of someone’s phenomenology, and they spend the first, at least, hour or two talking exactly like they would in a book, and that’s not enough to really understand, that it takes hours from that point to really come to some sort of meaningful understanding. That tells me that maybe I should read their books before I sit down with them as a starting point, but I don’t even do that because it’s frozen in time at some point. Who knows how many years ago a book was written. I need to know who they are now. I need to understand their phenomenology now.
Alex Tsakiris: When you say phenomenology, bring that down to a concrete level that any “spiritual seeker” listening to this show would understand.
Jeffery Martin: Yeah, that’s kind of a sciencey term and a philosophy term, of course, it’s also used in philosophy, it comes out of philosophy. But basically, all that means is trying to understand someone’s internal experience, really. Just trying to get your arms, as much as you possibly can, with as much accuracy and as much comprehensiveness around someone’s internal way that they are experiencing.
End 00:23:30
Start 00:30:40
Alex Tsakiris: On that drive to Chicago, you saw the trees for something more than trees, for a forest, and then you said, “Wait a minute. I can maybe help people get to the forest.” And that launches you on this path of saying, “Okay, let’s create this systematized approach to taking what these people are doing, generalizing it,” turning it into a course, if you will, and then that becomes the focus of what you do next.
And you’ve now done that, collected an amazing amount of data. All along, being the social scientist in your demands that you measure, measure, measure because everyone else is talking about this shit and they’re not measuring it in a way that becomes really important as the story goes on.
So bring us more up to date on how that all unfolds.
Jeffery Martin: So basically the day came when Phase One ended and Phase One had been us talking to people who had already experienced this, sometimes and often times for decades. But we had people in the sample that were as little as just over a year, which was our minimum cut-off for persistence. You had to be in it for just over a year persistently all the way up to decades.
I can’t remember what our average was, I don’t talk about those numbers as much anymore, so they’re not in my head, for many years. But I want to say the average persistence was like 7 years or 12 years or something like that. Most of the sample had been in it for a while.
So what’s interesting is that the day basically came when post-analysis was not enough. You want to know what’s actually changing in an individual. Who were these people before? And it was very clear to me that they were not able to accurately remember or represent who they were before.
One of the things that we know about wellbeing research in general, is that when somebody gets happier and if they have a persistent shift to being happier, they sort of color their entire history with that happiness. It’s frustrating, I think, for people that make legit self-help products that actually do help people, because those people will often get to the end of the process and they’re clearly happier but they’ll insist that they’re not, and it because they’ve forgotten how unhappy they were at the beginning of going to that course or whatever it was that shifted them.
End 00:33:03
Start 00:42:24
Jeffery Martin: When psychologists look at those numbers they look impossible. You shouldn’t be able to have like a 50% drop in neuroticism. Your personality traits, just to pick one example of one tiny piece of data. Your personality traits are supposed to be relatively stable. You shouldn’t be able to take a four-month program and have a 50% drop in your neuroticism or whatever, right?
Alex Tsakiris: How about a couple of other data points, stress, happiness?
Jeffery Martin: Yeah, stress, happiness, I’m not thinking too much about these numbers anymore. But I think there’s like a 40% drop on depression measures, on the Center for Epidemiological Studies, depression measure, which was one of the main depression measures. All of the measures were like major measures. Huge shifts and the mysticism type measures, of course, as one would expect.
You know, for me personally, I would give these presentations every year at the INTEREST scientific conferences and stuff. They would just invite us to present every year because who the heck else is doing this, right?
I remember there were always like a few people that I was really waiting to see when I tipped them over with data. Like, just the die-hard skeptics in the room. The people who really just did not want to believe our findings. In many cases because they were Buddhist themselves, even though they were also neuroscientists or whatever else. So they have fundamental, philosophical, ideological beliefs that made them diametrically opposed to our data.
I remember, a couple of years ago, I think, I was presenting and there was one guy that was left. And I love him to death, I won’t say who it is, but I love him to death. He’s a friend of mine. I have enormous respect for his work. He’s one of, I think, the most important people in the neuroscience of this space, but much as we like each other and as much as we respect each other, he was a hardened critic of our work for a very long time.
And I remember, I was in this one presentation and we finally had enough pieces of data within the wellbeing and depression stuff and between the personality measure stuff, like the neuroticism drop and I could tell that the one piece of evidence that probably tipped it for him was the meaning measures.
So we collected data on personal meaning and there is this one measure that looks at meaning in two different ways. These people have very accurately, I mean, it’s impressive work that they’ve got into this with the measure.
So they look at meaning as, what they call presence and search. And search really is seeking and it’s like a negative form of meaning making but they’ve found a way to measure it. And presence is essentially like just being at peace with things. So it’s like the form of meaning you want. It’s like the positive form of meaning that’s so illusive for humanity.
And we had, just really clear, highly statistically significant results that basically showed that in this population of people reporting fundamental wellbeing that you have the seeking portion of meaning, if you will, really significantly dropping, and the presence form of meaning really significantly increasing. And I don’t think I’d ever presented that particular data before, but I could tell it was that piece and also a piece of data on disassociation, depersonalization. I could just see his face change and after that there wasn’t anymore criticism, it was like, “Okay, you’ve got the puzzle,” like, “I’m convinced, you’ve got the puzzle. Those are all of the puzzle pieces that I would need to see.”
End 00:46:03
Start 00:53:08
Alex Tsakiris: You go back to your story, right? Which is everybody’s story. “I’m unhappy. I’m not as happy as I think I should be. I’m not as happy as those TV ads tell me I can be. I want to be happier.”
So you have somewhat of a spiritual bent and maybe you have like an anti-religious bent like a lot of us do when somebody says meditation and you go, “Oh okay, meditation. What should I do?” And you go online, meditation. I know the Zen people meditate.” So you find the local Zen people that will let you come in and sit down and you start meditating or you start taking a yoga class and there’s all of this stuff that they’re saying around all of these things. So you wind up following it, in some cases for years and years and you wind up scratching your head and going, “You know what I really wanted, was I wanted to feel better. I wanted to feel more a sense of wellbeing. Am I really getting there with that?”
I think that’s what I read out of this aspect of spiritual salesmanship that I think you’re directly debunking, which is to say, “If this is what you say you want and we can measure it in these ways, then why wouldn’t we want to, as directly as possible, try and achieve that? What’s wrong with that?”
Jeffery Martin: I agree, yeah, absolutely. And I would say, one of the problems with it, where the spiritual salesmanship I think comes in, is in the sales process. When I talk about what fundamental wellbeing is, it’s pretty much the opposite of the normal sense of self. So, if you’re in your normal sense of self and I’m trying to convince you that fundamental wellbeing is where it’s at, it sounds thoroughly undesirable to your normal sense of self.
End 00:54:52
Start 01:32:11
Jeffery Martin: I know one of the things that Russ Targ has I’m sure talked about publicly, this can’t be a secret, is that he basically took this clock off of his mantle one day and put some mirrors on it. He then bolted some lasers off of those mirrors and then, sort of put it behind a class panel at one end of the room and he brought people in and he said, “Make the pendulum move,” which was one of those rotational, not like left, right pendulums, but like one of those rotational pendulums on a mantle clock. He was like, “Make those move,” and he’d set up lasers to basically detect even the slightest movement, because he’s a laser physicist, bouncing off the mirrors. And this was government funded research to the tune of many, many millions of dollars, down here Palo Alto, California.
And one day, one of the research subjects who thought that this was just the most ludicrous thing that he’d ever been assigned to, as part of his internship at SRI, one day he’s sitting there and low and behold the thing moves and he learns how to move it. When asked about, “What was that like for you?” He described the same thing. He described, “It was a sense of a disillusion of my individualized sense of self and a self of merging with the apparatus and then somehow I could seem to affect it.”
—
Thanks again to Dr Jeffery Martin for joining me today on Skeptiko. One question I’d had to tee up from this interview is, has he done it? Has he cracked the code? Is this the answer? Could there be such an answer to this enlightenment transcendent awakening kind of thing? Has he at least advanced the ball in a direction that we all want to take things? What do you think? Let me know.
0:00 – 0:07 today’s guest has a new book titled the
0:03 – 0:09 finders now let me read you a couple of
0:07 – 0:11 blurbs from the back of this book the
0:09 – 0:15 first is from renowned neuropsychiatry
0:11 – 0:18 dr. Peter fennec if a Nobel Prize
0:15 – 0:21 existed for psychology the work done by
0:18 – 0:24 dr. Jeffrey Martin and his team would be
0:21 – 0:26 a strong contender again that’s from
0:24 – 0:29 Peter fennec next from well-known
0:26 – 0:33 consciousness researcher dr. Alan Combs
0:29 – 0:38 in this book dr. Martin takes his place
0:33 – 0:40 beside William James and Abram as low to
0:38 – 0:43 give us one of the most important and
0:40 – 0:47 groundbreaking works on consciousness in
0:43 – 0:49 human potential heady stuff dr. Jeffrey
0:47 – 0:51 Martin welcome back to skeptic oh so
0:49 – 0:53 great to have you here thanks so much
0:51 – 0:55 it’s great to be here it’s wonderful to
0:53 – 0:57 see you again likewise and I’m not
0:55 – 1:00 really trying to make light of that at
0:57 – 1:05 all I think that that really puts this
1:00 – 1:09 in context whether you agree with those
1:05 – 1:13 blurbs or not their blurbs unlike my
1:09 – 1:17 clerks I’ve read Nobel Prize William
1:13 – 1:19 James Maslow what does that feel like
1:17 – 1:22 for you we’re gonna talk about this
1:19 – 1:24 finders course we had you on a few years
1:22 – 1:26 ago you were in the middle of it you had
1:24 – 1:29 it up and going and it was running but
1:26 – 1:34 it just keeps gaining a lot of momentum
1:29 – 1:36 what’s going on Jeffrey Martin well of
1:34 – 1:39 course most of those people we’ve had
1:36 – 1:44 relationships with for you know over ten
1:39 – 1:46 years and so they’ve been trying their
1:44 – 1:48 very best to get us to put out more and
1:46 – 1:51 more and more information from our data
1:48 – 1:55 for a very long time so basically people
1:51 – 1:56 have been super excited and thrilled you
1:55 – 1:60 know when they got a copy of that book
1:56 – 2:03 in their hands because you know they’ve
1:60 – 2:05 been waiting for it frankly for so long
2:03 – 2:07 and so if you actually if you go to the
2:05 – 2:09 finders book calm I think it’s the
2:07 – 2:11 website you’ll see you can see even more
2:09 – 2:13 I mean it’s it’s a crazy array of people
2:11 – 2:15 from the
2:13 – 2:19 of the transpersonal psychology
2:15 – 2:22 association – Deepak Chopra – you know
2:19 – 2:25 Peter Fenwick like you said – just sort
2:22 – 2:28 of you name it Andy Newberg I mean
2:25 – 2:32 there’s like no corner of this world
2:28 – 2:34 that is sort of left out which is you
2:32 – 2:35 know wonderful we’re super grateful for
2:34 – 2:38 that but of course these have been
2:35 – 2:40 people that we’ve you know generally
2:38 – 2:43 worked in some way with for a very very
2:40 – 2:45 long time interfaced with and been
2:43 – 2:48 involved in either their research or
2:45 – 2:51 their in our research or both so these
2:48 – 2:54 it’s you know it’s a it’s a set of
2:51 – 2:58 long-standing relationships where we’re
2:54 – 3:01 absolutely as enthusiastic about them
2:58 – 3:03 and what they do with their research and
3:01 – 3:04 their work as we are with our is that
3:03 – 3:09 the one that you know the one decision
3:04 – 3:12 that we made actually was to go with
3:09 – 3:14 testimonials that were primarily from
3:12 – 3:17 people that were involved on the science
3:14 – 3:20 yes let me jump in there though because
3:17 – 3:22 I’m afraid that I may have jumped people
3:20 – 3:26 right into the middle of this thing and
3:22 – 3:29 we need to maybe back up who is for
3:26 – 3:32 those folks who don’t remember who is
3:29 – 3:35 dr. Jeffrey Martin and what is this
3:32 – 3:37 finders thing about that’s a good
3:35 – 3:39 question
3:37 – 3:41 you know it’s funny I don’t feel that
3:39 – 3:44 relevant in the whole thing ironically I
3:41 – 3:47 feel like I’ve sort of just been taken
3:44 – 3:48 along on this journey that started about
3:47 – 3:50 twelve years ago really it started I
3:48 – 3:52 would say about 15 years ago I was
3:50 – 3:54 researching things like synchronicity
3:52 – 3:57 and whatnot back then I was primarily an
3:54 – 4:01 entrepreneur not so much a researcher
3:57 – 4:03 and I you know built a bunch of
4:01 – 4:08 companies and done all sorts of stuff in
4:03 – 4:11 the media but for all of that success
4:08 – 4:13 fundamentally I I was not unhappy but it
4:11 – 4:15 just seemed like there were a lot of
4:13 – 4:17 people that were happier than I was and
4:15 – 4:21 given that I was working you know all
4:17 – 4:22 day I felt quite hard and that I’d done
4:21 – 4:24 everything that I’d been told it was
4:22 – 4:25 supposed to be the things that made you
4:24 – 4:27 very happy
4:25 – 4:30 it didn’t seem really fair
4:27 – 4:31 I wasn’t happy right or that there were
4:30 – 4:36 all these other people that were happy
4:31 – 4:39 or that I was and so I really sort of
4:36 – 4:44 set out on a quest to figure that out
4:39 – 4:46 and that you know here we are over a
4:44 – 4:49 dozen years later but a dozen years into
4:46 – 4:50 this project and so up to that point
4:49 – 4:52 I’ve done what everybody had done right
4:50 – 4:54 I mean I take it a zillion seminars I’d
4:52 – 4:57 read my way through all of the world’s
4:54 – 5:01 philosophies and religions and practiced
4:57 – 5:04 stuff here and there and you know I mean
5:01 – 5:05 I was decades into that type of search
5:04 – 5:07 for wellbeing and I’d sort of come to
5:05 – 5:10 the place where I felt like there really
5:07 – 5:12 weren’t any answers in any of those
5:10 – 5:14 directions I had given up on all of that
5:12 – 5:17 for all of that you know intense amount
5:14 – 5:19 of effort and it just occurred to me
5:17 – 5:23 that you know I probably was either
5:19 – 5:25 gonna take one of a few tracks at that
5:23 – 5:27 time one of the world’s largest media
5:25 – 5:29 company has had a senior executive
5:27 – 5:32 position open to sort of consolidate and
5:29 – 5:33 invent the next generation of media so I
5:32 – 5:35 was thinking about that offer which
5:33 – 5:36 would have seen me going to New York
5:35 – 5:38 which was not where the power base of
5:36 – 5:39 that company was and said that didn’t
5:38 – 5:40 seem like politically the best decision
5:39 – 5:43 but it did seem like an interesting job
5:40 – 5:48 right or continue to do the same thing
5:43 – 5:50 with my companies or really just saying
5:48 – 5:52 you know I’ve got to make a major life
5:50 – 5:54 shift here and go try to figure this out
5:52 – 5:56 which was exactly what I did and so I
5:54 – 5:59 really just sort of liquidated
5:56 – 6:02 everything and I went back to school and
5:59 – 6:04 I picked up training and neuroscience
6:02 – 6:07 and psychology and qualitative research
6:04 – 6:09 I tried to go to start of the best
6:07 – 6:14 institutions for each one of those
6:09 – 6:16 different things and then from there set
6:14 – 6:18 out on this course of research are
6:16 – 6:20 trying to find the happiest people that
6:18 – 6:22 I could to see if I could possibly
6:20 – 6:25 become one of them I’d join their ranks
6:22 – 6:26 and you’re leaving a couple of parts out
6:25 – 6:28 of the story that we kind of cover more
6:26 – 6:30 in the first interview so I don’t want
6:28 – 6:33 to rehash all that but one is that you
6:30 – 6:34 have a certain amount of baggage that
6:33 – 6:36 you’re bringing with you from a
6:34 – 6:39 spiritual standpoint in terms of your
6:36 – 6:41 upbringing and we all do but but that’s
6:39 – 6:44 there for you and
6:41 – 6:46 that’s really cool and number two is
6:44 – 6:48 you’re putting out there pretty good
6:46 – 6:50 about who you are but you’re still in a
6:48 – 6:52 way being humble I mean you’ve done some
6:50 – 6:54 pretty amazing things before this you
6:52 – 6:57 know and you’ve written and you’ve
6:54 – 6:59 accomplished both in the business world
6:57 – 7:01 as well as kind of in some of these
6:59 – 7:03 other worlds and and then I guess the
7:01 – 7:04 other thing is you know you get into and
7:03 – 7:07 you’re gonna be a social scientist right
7:04 – 7:09 so all of a sudden you’re at Harvard and
7:07 – 7:13 you’re read over on the west coast we’re
7:09 – 7:14 at Cal at CIS CIS you know number I
7:13 – 7:16 think which is I think the number one
7:14 – 7:17 chronic qualitative school in the world
7:16 – 7:21 for qualitative research you know you
7:17 – 7:24 just plow into this stuff that everyone
7:21 – 7:29 has looked at and said somebody needs to
7:24 – 7:30 do this I think and you do it and now
7:29 – 7:36 you’ve done it
7:30 – 7:39 so or we’re still doing it yeah but I
7:36 – 7:41 just want to add that it’s quite an
7:39 – 7:44 amazing journey that you’ve been on just
7:41 – 7:46 amazing it is I I can’t disagree at all
7:44 – 7:49 it’s been an incredible journey you know
7:46 – 7:51 I feel like life has just sort of pulled
7:49 – 7:54 me along like I’ve just sort of been
7:51 – 7:56 grabbing on to this tale that’s just you
7:54 – 7:58 know running at full speed attached to
7:56 – 7:60 some sort of creature
7:58 – 8:02 I’m just getting sort of pulled and
7:60 – 8:05 pulled and pulled and pulled and pulled
8:02 – 8:07 further and further and further and in
8:05 – 8:08 this case this rabbit hole I mean before
8:07 – 8:11 that yeah it was a you know it was a
8:08 – 8:13 bunch of other things whether it was you
8:11 – 8:15 know I was instrumental I think you
8:13 – 8:17 could easily say in the digital
8:15 – 8:18 television revolution early on and
8:17 – 8:21 there’s all sorts of things like that so
8:18 – 8:23 yeah I’ve had a pretty interesting track
8:21 – 8:24 record I liked I you know it’s
8:23 – 8:26 interesting I was talking to somebody
8:24 – 8:27 the other day and they were like you
8:26 – 8:29 know if you look back it’s it’s kind of
8:27 – 8:30 fascinating because you’ve just sort of
8:29 – 8:32 consistently been involved in these
8:30 – 8:35 projects that affect hundreds of
8:32 – 8:36 millions or billions of people and I was
8:35 – 8:39 thinking to myself gosh I sure hope this
8:36 – 8:42 is another one like that hope that
8:39 – 8:44 wasn’t broken that chain of events was
8:42 – 8:46 it broken when I shifted my life a dozen
8:44 – 8:48 years ago and and headed in this
8:46 – 8:49 direction we’ll see because I think this
8:48 – 8:52 is the one thing you know it wasn’t
8:49 – 8:53 wasn’t any of the media stuff it wasn’t
8:52 – 8:54 any of the computer stuff it wasn’t any
8:53 – 8:56 of the business stuff
8:54 – 8:60 wasn’t any of the investing stuff wasn’t
8:56 – 9:03 into that stuff that I think really
8:60 – 9:05 needed to be as widely accessible as
9:03 – 9:07 humanly possible I think this is the
9:05 – 9:11 stuff that needs to be as widely
9:07 – 9:13 accessible as humanly possible and so
9:11 – 9:15 you know we’re working on that I think
9:13 – 9:17 we’re a long way from that at this point
9:15 – 9:18 but we’re getting up every day and
9:17 – 9:20 working on it that’s for sure
9:18 – 9:22 well that’s an incredible vision and I
9:20 – 9:24 remember the first time that we met
9:22 – 9:27 which is now probably five years ago I
9:24 – 9:29 can’t even count but that was your
9:27 – 9:31 vision right then and it just struck me
9:29 – 9:33 and it was awesome I think it was
9:31 – 9:35 somebody needs to have that vision but
9:33 – 9:37 your vision was you’re sitting around
9:35 – 9:40 with a bunch of people say hey man come
9:37 – 9:42 check out my little song guy here and
9:40 – 9:45 let’s get a few people together to do a
9:42 – 9:47 course and Jeffrey Martin’s going yeah
9:45 – 9:49 but what if we turned on a billion
9:47 – 9:52 people you know what a billion people
9:49 – 9:55 woke up what would that be like how
9:52 – 9:56 would that be what would the economic
9:55 – 9:59 model for that be what would the
9:56 – 10:03 technology model for that be what would
9:59 – 10:05 the data from that be you know what I
10:03 – 10:08 mean and not talking about it in some
10:05 – 10:11 new agey kind of the consciousness of
10:08 – 10:15 the planet shifting but more from a kind
10:11 – 10:17 of Silicon Valley marketing put it in a
10:15 – 10:21 spreadsheet kind of thing know what
10:17 – 10:25 would that mean if a billion people made
10:21 – 10:26 this kind of transition that we say we
10:25 – 10:28 can measure so we say we can measure
10:26 – 10:30 these kind of things like well being in
10:28 – 10:33 these different ways and we all accept
10:30 – 10:36 that that we can to some extent and then
10:33 – 10:39 you’re saying well what if that shifted
10:36 – 10:43 this way for a billion people that’s
10:39 – 10:45 pretty audacious but you’ve been true to
10:43 – 10:48 it you’ve been true to it from the very
10:45 – 10:50 beginning that said recap for people
10:48 – 10:54 because I think it’s really important if
10:50 – 10:57 someone did nothing other than the first
10:54 – 10:59 phase of this work it would have been a
10:57 – 11:01 huge contribution huge contribution the
10:59 – 11:02 contribution that everyone sits back and
11:01 – 11:04 says well somebody should do that
11:02 – 11:06 somebody should do that somebody should
11:04 – 11:08 do that and you did it in terms of going
11:06 – 11:11 and to all these
11:08 – 11:13 communities that say they nurture this
11:11 – 11:16 enlightenment awakening thing and saying
11:13 – 11:17 okay great who are they who are the
11:16 – 11:19 people among your community who have
11:17 – 11:20 achieved that and then you went and
11:19 – 11:22 talked to them and now how many of those
11:20 – 11:24 people this has been years ago it is at
11:22 – 11:27 the beginning your research but how many
11:24 – 11:31 of those people have you talked to and
11:27 – 11:32 systematically tried to understand what
11:31 – 11:34 they’re doing which is phase one we’re
11:32 – 11:38 not going to get into Phase two yet but
11:34 – 11:41 yeah phase one involved in some cases
11:38 – 11:42 those long format interviews the six to
11:41 – 11:44 twelve hour really digging in interviews
11:42 – 11:46 some cases repeating those four people
11:44 – 11:48 so we have some longitudinal research
11:46 – 11:52 subjects that we still you know we’ll
11:48 – 11:55 check in with to this day at an in depth
11:52 – 11:57 kind of way and then you know a lot of
11:55 – 11:59 that was giving people a lot of the gold
11:57 – 12:01 standard psychology measures that were
11:59 – 12:03 out there across the wide range of sub
12:01 – 12:05 psychology disciplines from well-being
12:03 – 12:07 and positive psychology type stuff to
12:05 – 12:11 developmental psychology personality
12:07 – 12:11 psychology psychopathology stuff you
12:11 – 12:14 name it
12:11 – 12:17 and also physiological measurement so
12:14 – 12:24 lots of brain stuff heart rate you know
12:17 – 12:26 breath breath rate breath gases GSR you
12:24 – 12:28 know sort of you name it even one thing
12:26 – 12:30 that we haven’t made it to yet I think
12:28 – 12:31 even when I talked to you last I was
12:30 – 12:33 sort of hoping to make it to there
12:31 – 12:35 because my friend Deepak Chopra but
12:33 – 12:37 harping on me about it at the time he’s
12:35 – 12:38 an MD you know he’s a doctor and he’s
12:37 – 12:40 still and he’s still a doctor like
12:38 – 12:42 people think of him as like this author
12:40 – 12:45 or whatever else but at heart I mean
12:42 – 12:46 he’s still basically a physician and so
12:45 – 12:49 he was like you know you need to collect
12:46 – 12:50 blood on these people and all of that
12:49 – 12:51 and we actually have never gotten around
12:50 – 12:53 to that I would still like to get around
12:51 – 12:54 to looking at genetics and looking at
12:53 – 12:56 genetic changes and looking at blood
12:54 – 12:58 changes and stuff like that but you know
12:56 – 13:01 I’m sort of more on the neuroscience
12:58 – 13:04 electrons side for the horrible not so
13:01 – 13:06 much at the wet lab side of the world so
13:04 – 13:09 so yeah we did all of that with it was
13:06 – 13:12 about 1,200 people who participated in
13:09 – 13:14 some way in that initial phase of the
13:12 – 13:15 project what we call phase one of the
13:14 – 13:18 research projects it was a lot of people
13:15 – 13:20 I was across every you know I think
13:18 – 13:21 across as far as I can tell
13:20 – 13:25 across every major
13:21 – 13:28 most major major issue Irish you know
13:25 – 13:29 spiritual and religious traditions but
13:28 – 13:31 also beyond that
13:29 – 13:35 okay let’s throw some out traditional
13:31 – 13:37 Christian Catholic kind of did you hit
13:35 – 13:39 that absolutely you know we had all the
13:37 – 13:41 Abrahamic traditions someone who
13:39 – 13:43 considers himself a Christian mystic did
13:41 – 13:44 you have any of those in there oh yeah
13:43 – 13:46 for sure and they were they were
13:44 – 13:48 interesting because you know the funny
13:46 – 13:49 thing about the Abrahamic traditions is
13:48 – 13:53 that the Mystics are pushed to the
13:49 – 13:56 margins and you know like they’re never
13:53 – 13:59 gonna get on Christian TV or you know
13:56 – 14:02 whatever right they’re like I’m so
13:59 – 14:05 completely blackballed that it’s amazing
14:02 – 14:07 and I didn’t know that until I started
14:05 – 14:08 interviewing them it was fascinating to
14:07 – 14:10 find that out you know yeah yeah I’m not
14:08 – 14:13 trying to cut that off I’m just trying
14:10 – 14:16 to give people a sense because you say
14:13 – 14:18 that and I in some ways you’re so
14:16 – 14:22 comfortable saying it that it doesn’t
14:18 – 14:25 fully capture what I envision it being
14:22 – 14:28 like for you to set up these long-form
14:25 – 14:32 six-hour interviews and now you’re
14:28 – 14:35 talking to a Zen master of a particular
14:32 – 14:38 branch of Zen Buddhism that’s different
14:35 – 14:40 from this other slightly different one
14:38 – 14:43 over here in this Korean one and this
14:40 – 14:46 Vietnamese and you’re talking to all of
14:43 – 14:49 them in comparing and contrasting and
14:46 – 14:53 nexuses Sufi mr. annexes I mean give
14:49 – 14:54 people just a sense of how broad this is
14:53 – 14:56 there’s so there are two interesting
14:54 – 14:59 things about that the first is just how
14:56 – 15:02 incredibly different they are within the
14:59 – 15:05 same tradition right and so like I
15:02 – 15:08 remember tera vaada Buddhism was you
15:05 – 15:09 know this fascinating one because it
15:08 – 15:11 turned out that there were a lot of
15:09 – 15:14 American tera vaada Buddhist teachers
15:11 – 15:16 which made it really convenient right
15:14 – 15:17 because language barriers are brutal
15:16 – 15:20 when you’re trying to get at someone’s
15:17 – 15:22 internal phenomenology and so I was like
15:20 – 15:24 super grateful that we hit this version
15:22 – 15:26 of Buddhism where there were lots of a
15:24 – 15:28 lots of people who spoke English as
15:26 – 15:31 their first language that she could go
15:28 – 15:33 talk to but what was very you know
15:31 – 15:35 frustrating about that is that like
15:33 – 15:35 everyone that you talked to they all had
15:35 – 15:38 the same
15:35 – 15:40 so it was all like you know arising and
15:38 – 15:42 passing away and stream entry and first
15:40 – 15:44 path and all that stuff but like you
15:42 – 15:46 would ask them okay well what is your
15:44 – 15:47 phenomenological set of characteristics
15:46 – 15:49 for determining someone who’s reached
15:47 – 15:52 first path or whatever writer had stream
15:49 – 15:54 entry or whatever and like they were
15:52 – 15:56 just so totally different like one
15:54 – 15:58 person’s list for a rising and passing
15:56 – 15:60 away match to another person’s list for
15:58 – 16:02 stream entry or whatever else and you
15:60 – 16:04 just got this sense like you know holy
16:02 – 16:06 cow this is kind of nuts so there was a
16:04 – 16:07 lot of difficulty around stuff like that
16:06 – 16:09 you forget about cross tradition it’s
16:07 – 16:11 like within the same tradition it was
16:09 – 16:14 and it makes sense right because you’re
16:11 – 16:17 trying to interpret these texts that are
16:14 – 16:18 a zillion years old right I mean I
16:17 – 16:20 there’s this fascinating dissertation
16:18 – 16:22 done by this lady named Beryl Seder
16:20 – 16:23 well who’s I hope I’m pronouncing that
16:22 – 16:25 right because I’ve never actually heard
16:23 – 16:26 it pronounced but it was from one of the
16:25 – 16:28 universities in Pennsylvania and she
16:26 – 16:30 looked at the new thought movement in
16:28 – 16:33 America and she was a period historian
16:30 – 16:35 right and so she just she was interested
16:33 – 16:38 in like women’s power dynamics within
16:35 – 16:40 society and for whatever bizarre reason
16:38 – 16:42 she wound up picking the new thought
16:40 – 16:45 movement as the lens to look at that
16:42 – 16:48 through for this very hardcore period
16:45 – 16:50 historian style dissertation so I ran
16:48 – 16:53 across that when I was researching the
16:50 – 16:55 self-help community prior to researching
16:53 – 16:56 all of this stuff I was looking at his
16:55 – 16:58 self up community mostly because I was
16:56 – 17:00 trying to figure out what I should use
16:58 – 17:02 myself you know what what actually might
17:00 – 17:04 work in the self-help Commuter to make
17:02 – 17:07 me happier right and so I ran across
17:04 – 17:09 this this dissertation on the new
17:07 – 17:11 thought movement and now the new thought
17:09 – 17:15 movement occurred like 150 years ago to
17:11 – 17:18 100 years ago or so you know roughly and
17:15 – 17:21 so and it occurred in America and it
17:18 – 17:24 occurred in English right and so in
17:21 – 17:25 theory any of us ought to be able to
17:24 – 17:27 pick up one of those books and
17:25 – 17:29 understand what the heck they’re saying
17:27 – 17:31 and of course that’s the it’s these are
17:29 – 17:33 all the books and all the works that
17:31 – 17:35 form the foundation of the modern new
17:33 – 17:37 thought movement and a lot of some
17:35 – 17:39 degree the New Age movement and the
17:37 – 17:40 power of thought movement in the secret
17:39 – 17:43 and all of them right they all point
17:40 – 17:45 back to these people and I think you
17:43 – 17:47 know if you go back and you read those
17:45 – 17:49 books you think to yourself I totally
17:47 – 17:51 understand this no prob
17:49 – 17:54 right but then you read Barrels
17:51 – 17:56 dissertation and you realize that you
17:54 – 17:58 don’t understand anything that you’re
17:56 – 18:02 reading that it is embedded in a
17:58 – 18:06 socio-economic context that you are so
18:02 – 18:09 completely removed from in 2019 you know
18:06 – 18:11 I mean the late 1800s and how they were
18:09 – 18:12 thinking about spirit being in these
18:11 – 18:14 debates that they were having around
18:12 – 18:16 with spirit infused and matter or was it
18:14 – 18:17 separate from manner and how did that
18:16 – 18:20 relate to women’s power dynamics and
18:17 – 18:22 society and how is that language all
18:20 – 18:23 coded through all of these texts in ways
18:22 – 18:26 that you and I would never pick up the
18:23 – 18:28 nuances of so we so we read those books
18:26 – 18:29 and we’re like oh we totally understand
18:28 – 18:31 these and the reality is we don’t
18:29 – 18:32 understand them at all that’s what you
18:31 – 18:34 learned from reading her dissertation is
18:32 – 18:36 you can’t read these people’s books in
18:34 – 18:39 English from like a hundred years ago
18:36 – 18:41 and understand their points and
18:39 – 18:42 understand the nuances of their points
18:41 – 18:43 and so I don’t think it’s surprising
18:42 – 18:45 that if you sit down with a bunch of
18:43 – 18:48 Tara vadas Buddhist teachers in the West
18:45 – 18:50 and they’re deriving their ideas from
18:48 – 18:52 books that are hundreds of years old
18:50 – 18:54 written in a non-english language that
18:52 – 18:56 they can’t come to some sort of
18:54 – 18:59 agreement on what the phenomenology
18:56 – 19:00 should be of their various stages or
18:59 – 19:03 even what the end point should look like
19:00 – 19:05 of their thing or whatever else right
19:03 – 19:06 because we can’t understand stuff that
19:05 – 19:09 was written a hundred years ago for
19:06 – 19:11 crying out loud in our own language you
19:09 – 19:13 and it seems like it should be clear as
19:11 – 19:15 day when we read it you know until you
19:13 – 19:17 read a period scholars work that just
19:15 – 19:19 teaches you you you don’t have any idea
19:17 – 19:22 what you’re actually looking at so I you
19:19 – 19:24 know I think these it’s it’s things like
19:22 – 19:25 that that help me to contextualize and
19:24 – 19:28 you know just sort of be cool with it
19:25 – 19:30 when I sit down with folks because I
19:28 – 19:31 just sort of understand the situation
19:30 – 19:34 that they’re in even if they don’t
19:31 – 19:35 necessarily understand the situation
19:34 – 19:36 that they’re and you know you go talk to
19:35 – 19:38 a bunch of new thought people today and
19:36 – 19:39 they all think that they totally
19:38 – 19:40 understand that old New Thought
19:39 – 19:43 literature you know they’re never gonna
19:40 – 19:45 run across barrel stators dissertation
19:43 – 19:46 for God’s sakes right or a book she
19:45 – 19:48 actually turned it into a book it’s
19:46 – 19:49 watered down a little bit in the book
19:48 – 19:52 but it’s still a powerful book it’s
19:49 – 19:53 called each mind a kingdom or every mind
19:52 – 19:55 a kingdom or something like that
19:53 – 19:57 if you’re into that kind of thing man
19:55 – 19:59 that’s like an amazing book well I’m
19:57 – 20:03 glad that you’re into that kind of thing
19:59 – 20:06 I do and I think that’s maybe the
20:03 – 20:10 of this work that you’re doing because
20:06 – 20:13 you do approach it so much like a social
20:10 – 20:17 scientist on one hand and then on the
20:13 – 20:20 other hand you’re fully in as a subject
20:17 – 20:24 as a seeker and you wear those two hats
20:20 – 20:26 and you wear of them quite bravely and I
20:24 – 20:27 love that about you
20:26 – 20:30 the methodology that you were just
20:27 – 20:31 mentioning the more I learn about your
20:30 – 20:33 methodology and some of the
20:31 – 20:35 presentations you’ve done and talk about
20:33 – 20:38 it the you know we could talk probably
20:35 – 20:40 for hours and some of the subtleties of
20:38 – 20:42 what you’ve discovered there and how
20:40 – 20:44 that is important in understanding your
20:42 – 20:47 work but I just threw out a couple is
20:44 – 20:48 one I love these talks that you give and
20:47 – 20:50 you can see you get pretty passionate
20:48 – 20:53 about some of these things but you’ll
20:50 – 20:56 talk about trusting the current
20:53 – 20:60 experience of that participant in these
20:56 – 21:01 surveys so now what they thought 30
20:60 – 21:03 years ago and they started their
21:01 – 21:06 practice but what they experienced and
21:03 – 21:08 think now and maybe you can talk to why
21:06 – 21:13 that’s important and also like you just
21:08 – 21:15 mentioned separating that from what
21:13 – 21:18 they’re supposed to believe what their
21:15 – 21:22 tradition teaches what their texts teach
21:18 – 21:25 and you seem to take great pains to
21:22 – 21:27 really develop a methodology that needed
21:25 – 21:30 to focus on the data in a particular way
21:27 – 21:32 in order to get some of the questions
21:30 – 21:34 that you wanted answered and I just
21:32 – 21:35 think that’s awesome do you want to
21:34 – 21:38 speak to that at all
21:35 – 21:39 sure I’m happy to speak to that anything
21:38 – 21:41 you really want to talk about it’s great
21:39 – 21:44 that’s right
21:41 – 21:47 so I intentionally did not read anything
21:44 – 21:49 you know I haven’t read any of my
21:47 – 21:51 subjects books even though I often would
21:49 – 21:53 leave their houses with their books you
21:51 – 21:54 know they would give me as a gift they
21:53 – 21:57 could hoping that I would read it
21:54 – 21:59 probably but I didn’t read any of them
21:57 – 22:02 and the reason that I didn’t read any of
21:59 – 22:04 them is because our project has a very
22:02 – 22:06 specific philosophy around that in terms
22:04 – 22:09 of a scientific philosophy if you will
22:06 – 22:11 and that is that what I really want to
22:09 – 22:14 get at is lived experience right and so
22:11 – 22:16 I don’t I know that I cannot I know just
22:14 – 22:17 from sitting down if it takes six to
22:16 – 22:21 twelve hours
22:17 – 22:23 to get to a point where you think that
22:21 – 22:26 you probably understand enough of
22:23 – 22:28 someone’s phenomenology and they spend
22:26 – 22:30 the first atleast hour or two talking
22:28 – 22:32 exactly like they would in a book you
22:30 – 22:34 know and that’s not enough to really
22:32 – 22:38 understand therefore not that it takes
22:34 – 22:39 hours from that point to really come to
22:38 – 22:42 some sort of meaningful understanding
22:39 – 22:44 that just you know that tells me that
22:42 – 22:45 maybe I should read their books before I
22:44 – 22:47 sit down with them as a starting point
22:45 – 22:48 but I don’t even do that because it’s
22:47 – 22:50 frozen in time at some point right who
22:48 – 22:52 knows how many years ago a book was
22:50 – 22:53 written I need to know who they are now
22:52 – 22:56 I need to understand their phenomenology
22:53 – 22:60 now when you say phenomenology bring
22:56 – 23:02 that down to a concrete level that any
22:60 – 23:05 spiritual seeker quote-unquote listening
23:02 – 23:08 to this show would understand I mean
23:05 – 23:10 that’s kind of a science eternam huh and
23:08 – 23:12 if it’s in a philosophy term of course
23:10 – 23:15 it’s also used in philosophy that comes
23:12 – 23:17 out of philosophy but basically it’s all
23:15 – 23:19 that means is trying to understand
23:17 – 23:21 someone’s internal experience really
23:19 – 23:24 just trying to get your arms as much as
23:21 – 23:26 you possibly can with as much accuracy
23:24 – 23:29 and as much comprehensiveness around
23:26 – 23:32 someone’s internal way that they are
23:29 – 23:36 experiencing feeling of oneness feeling
23:32 – 23:39 of internal peace ability to shut down
23:36 – 23:41 the mind all these things we hear and
23:39 – 23:43 then you’re trying to as a social
23:41 – 23:46 scientist say okay what does that mean
23:43 – 23:48 to you not what does that mean in some
23:46 – 23:51 religious context or spiritual context
23:48 – 23:53 but yeah how does that show up in your
23:51 – 23:56 moment to moment perception and I you
23:53 – 23:57 know it’s interesting because one of the
23:56 – 23:58 things what another one of the
23:57 – 24:00 fascinating things that we learned very
23:58 – 24:03 early on was that people are not
24:00 – 24:06 speaking in metaphor they are trying to
24:03 – 24:08 speak to you with as accurate a
24:06 – 24:10 description in language as they can of
24:08 – 24:12 their experience right and so like one
24:10 – 24:16 of the things that when they say oneness
24:12 – 24:18 like that is an accurate description to
24:16 – 24:20 them of their it’s as accurate as they
24:18 – 24:22 can get in language of their experience
24:20 – 24:24 it’s not some sort of metaphor right or
24:22 – 24:26 when they say when I transitioned it was
24:24 – 24:29 in an instant and it was almost like I
24:26 – 24:30 woke up from a dream right that’s that
24:29 – 24:34 that’s like as good
24:30 – 24:36 a concrete example as they can as they
24:34 – 24:38 feel like they can provide you as
24:36 – 24:40 another human being they’re not trying
24:38 – 24:42 to provide some metaphor some loosey
24:40 – 24:44 goosey things some get you in the
24:42 – 24:46 ballpark type of thing they’re like okay
24:44 – 24:49 searching my entire experience what is
24:46 – 24:51 the most concrete example that I could
24:49 – 24:53 provide to this person that I’m talking
24:51 – 24:55 to so one thing that’s interesting about
24:53 – 24:57 this population of people is that they
24:55 – 24:59 use their language typically very
24:57 – 25:01 precisely and very carefully and
24:59 – 25:04 thought-out very carefully and it’s
25:01 – 25:08 often it’s often an attempt to directly
25:04 – 25:09 convey their experience and then the
25:08 – 25:11 rest of the world sort of sees it
25:09 – 25:13 different than that which is sort of
25:11 – 25:15 funny right people often think Oh waking
25:13 – 25:18 up for a dream it’s like some metaphor
25:15 – 25:19 it’s like oh now my mind can spin off in
25:18 – 25:21 a thousand different ways that the
25:19 – 25:23 person might know they mean like when
25:21 – 25:26 you wake up in the morning and you were
25:23 – 25:28 having a dream and then suddenly you’re
25:26 – 25:29 not having a dream and you’re awake
25:28 – 25:32 they’re like that exact experience
25:29 – 25:34 that’s what I am referring that’s it’s
25:32 – 25:36 like that’s as close as I could
25:34 – 25:37 don’t spin it off into some sort of you
25:36 – 25:39 know what did I mean metaphorically
25:37 – 25:42 about waking up from a dream taking some
25:39 – 25:43 poetic license so it’s stuff like that
25:42 – 25:44 you know from a phenomenological
25:43 – 25:46 standpoint that you wind up discovering
25:44 – 25:48 I should say phenomenology of course
25:46 – 25:49 deals with anybody’s internal state not
25:48 – 25:52 just these people’s internal state it’s
25:49 – 25:53 it’s a method of inquiry into that but
25:52 – 25:55 yeah that’s the types of things that
25:53 – 25:57 these people would report obviously a
25:55 – 25:58 tremendous sense of peace you know
25:57 – 26:02 that’s really I think the most
25:58 – 26:04 fundamental thing for a long time I had
26:02 – 26:07 sort of this list of stuff that people
26:04 – 26:08 would add stuff to and I would cross
26:07 – 26:11 stuff off of and I was always looking
26:08 – 26:12 for the common denominator and I think
26:11 – 26:14 maybe the last time I was on the show I
26:12 – 26:16 don’t remember if I told this story but
26:14 – 26:18 you know this is one moment where I was
26:16 – 26:20 driving from a research interview in
26:18 – 26:22 Springfield Illinois up to another one
26:20 – 26:26 in Chicago and the person in Springfield
26:22 – 26:27 Illinois had crossed the very last item
26:26 – 26:31 that I thought was going to be a
26:27 – 26:33 commonality off of my list and it was I
26:31 – 26:36 was years into it at that point right
26:33 – 26:38 and it was just like this devastating
26:36 – 26:42 personal moment for me I was I mean I
26:38 – 26:43 remember I was like literally crying for
26:42 – 26:45 the first part of that drive
26:43 – 26:47 because of the impact and that sounds
26:45 – 26:49 ridiculous but I was like you know I
26:47 – 26:52 spent all these years I spent all this
26:49 – 26:54 money I’ve spent I’ve put in just my
26:52 – 26:57 heart and soul into this and it and that
26:54 – 26:60 last guy just basically made it fail it
26:57 – 27:01 was sort of what it felt like and then
26:60 – 27:04 by the end of that Drive by the time I
27:01 – 27:08 got to there’s a little outside Chicago
27:04 – 27:10 sort of in an Indiana suburb by the time
27:08 – 27:12 I reached there I’d sort of
27:10 – 27:13 recontextualize and I realized that I’d
27:12 – 27:16 been looking at the trees and had missed
27:13 – 27:19 the entire forest and so this list that
27:16 – 27:21 I had were a list of trees and they
27:19 – 27:23 caused me to miss this the overall
27:21 – 27:25 forest right and that the thing that was
27:23 – 27:28 common across all of these people was
27:25 – 27:31 sort of this fundamental shift in their
27:28 – 27:33 core psychology away from a sense of
27:31 – 27:36 discontentment that’s common certainly
27:33 – 27:38 was common in me at that time and it’s
27:36 – 27:40 common in most of the mainstream you
27:38 – 27:41 know population of humanity around the
27:40 – 27:43 world there’s just sort of this
27:41 – 27:44 fundamental sense of discontentment that
27:43 – 27:46 we all have at the root of our
27:44 – 27:48 psychology and it manifests in all kinds
27:46 – 27:50 of ways you know in the extremes it’s
27:48 – 27:53 fear and worry and you know anxiety and
27:50 – 27:55 stuff like that but it no matter who you
27:53 – 27:57 are no matter how great your life is you
27:55 – 27:60 still have the sense that something is
27:57 – 28:02 just not quite right and so you know
27:60 – 28:04 your mind is constantly trying to figure
28:02 – 28:06 that out and for a normal and this is
28:04 – 28:08 normal right this is what psychology
28:06 – 28:10 would consider normal and healthy your
28:08 – 28:12 mind is just sort of constantly trying
28:10 – 28:14 to figure this out you know and it’s
28:12 – 28:16 going it’s like okay well when I have
28:14 – 28:19 you know a Learjet
28:16 – 28:22 then I’ll finally be you know then that
28:19 – 28:24 that will finally be quenched right and
28:22 – 28:25 then you get the Learjet
28:24 – 28:27 right and you’re like happy for an hour
28:25 – 28:28 and a half or something and it’s
28:27 – 28:29 quenched for an hour and a half or
28:28 – 28:31 something right and then your mind is
28:29 – 28:36 like okay well the Learjet didn’t do it
28:31 – 28:39 I must need another child it’s just one
28:36 – 28:41 more child that I need and so let’s go
28:39 – 28:43 off insert in that goal right and it’s
28:41 – 28:45 like are like the normal human mind is
28:43 – 28:48 just constantly generating all of these
28:45 – 28:50 goals most of you know some human minds
28:48 – 28:53 generate very simple goals that can
28:50 – 28:54 constantly be achieved or maybe you know
28:53 – 28:57 you do get the Learjet if you have a
28:54 – 28:60 more complicated we have a more
28:57 – 29:02 sort of aggressive human mind whatever
28:60 – 29:03 but you know the more of these things
29:02 – 29:06 you get the more you sort of give up on
29:03 – 29:08 happiness I think it’s funny the most
29:06 – 29:10 accomplished people and I know I’ve just
29:08 – 29:12 had the privilege to interact with a lot
29:10 – 29:14 of people who sort of run the world and
29:12 – 29:15 they’re often the most unhappy people
29:14 – 29:17 that you can imagine because they’ve
29:15 – 29:19 sort of got everything you know it’s
29:17 – 29:22 like what goal have they not achieved in
29:19 – 29:24 their life by this point and they’ve
29:22 – 29:26 just given up on anything you know
29:24 – 29:29 filling that void or ending that
29:26 – 29:30 fundamental discontentment and so for
29:29 – 29:32 them it’s just you know mostly just full
29:30 – 29:34 steam ahead on the accomplishment track
29:32 – 29:36 because that’s what there is right and
29:34 – 29:38 at least the more things you win on the
29:36 – 29:40 more you get the little brief periods of
29:38 – 29:43 peace or whatever else whereas the
29:40 – 29:45 average person I think you know lots of
29:43 – 29:46 times they think you know they they they
29:45 – 29:48 have all of these cultural things that
29:46 – 29:51 that they’re told that they should get
29:48 – 29:53 maybe like a Learjet right and they’re
29:51 – 29:56 never going to get it and so they just
29:53 – 29:58 assume well I could have been happy if I
29:56 – 29:60 could have had some of those things
29:58 – 30:02 right and so they just sort of accept
29:60 – 30:03 their lot you know to some degree but
30:02 – 30:07 the reality is it’s just this
30:03 – 30:09 fundamental heart of human psychology of
30:07 – 30:11 traditional human psychology as it seems
30:09 – 30:13 to have evolved to this point and what
30:11 – 30:15 shifts with fundamental well-being is
30:13 – 30:16 the most amazing thing ever even though
30:15 – 30:18 it’s the most ordinary thing ever and of
30:16 – 30:20 course you hear people say phrases like
30:18 – 30:23 that and it’s very confusing I think to
30:20 – 30:25 the average person but what the it’s
30:23 – 30:26 it’s what’s so ordinary about it is
30:25 – 30:28 there’s just like this little shift that
30:26 – 30:31 happens way at the bottom of your
30:28 – 30:33 psychology away from that fundamental
30:31 – 30:34 sense of discontentment and towards a
30:33 – 30:38 sense that everything is really okay
30:34 – 30:43 when did you know that on that drive to
30:38 – 30:45 Chicago okay drive to Chicago you saw
30:43 – 30:49 the trees for something more than trees
30:45 – 30:53 for a forest and then you said wait a
30:49 – 30:56 minute I can maybe help people get to
30:53 – 30:59 the forest and that launches you on this
30:56 – 31:03 path of saying okay let’s create this
30:59 – 31:05 systematized approach to taking what
31:03 – 31:07 these people are doing generalizing and
31:05 – 31:10 turning into a course if you will and
31:07 – 31:11 then that becomes the focus of what you
31:10 – 31:14 do next
31:11 – 31:16 and you’ve now done that collected an
31:14 – 31:19 amazing amount of data all along again
31:16 – 31:22 the social scientist in you demands that
31:19 – 31:23 you measure measure measure because no
31:22 – 31:25 one else everyone else is talking about
31:23 – 31:27 this shit and they’re not measuring it
31:25 – 31:30 in a way that becomes really important
31:27 – 31:33 as the story goes on so bring this more
31:30 – 31:36 up-to-date than how that all unfolds so
31:33 – 31:38 basically the day came when phase 1
31:36 – 31:41 ended and phase 1 had been us talking to
31:38 – 31:43 people who had only experienced who had
31:41 – 31:46 already experienced this sometimes and
31:43 – 31:47 often times for decades you know though
31:46 – 31:49 we had people in the sample that were as
31:47 – 31:51 little as over just over a year which
31:49 – 31:52 was our minimum cutoff for persistence
31:51 – 31:55 we had to be in it for just over a year
31:52 – 31:57 persistently all the way up to decades
31:55 – 31:59 but mode yeah I can’t remember what our
31:57 – 32:01 average was I don’t talk about those
31:59 – 32:04 numbers as much anymore so they’re not
32:01 – 32:05 in my head for for many years but I mean
32:04 – 32:07 I want to say the average persistence
32:05 – 32:10 was like seven years or 12 years or
32:07 – 32:12 something like that and so you know most
32:10 – 32:17 of the sample had been in it for a while
32:12 – 32:20 and so what’s interesting is that the
32:17 – 32:24 the date well the day basically came
32:20 – 32:25 when post analysis was not enough you
32:24 – 32:28 know you want to know like what’s
32:25 – 32:30 actually changing in an individual who
32:28 – 32:31 were these people before it was very
32:30 – 32:33 clear to me that they were not able to
32:31 – 32:35 accurately remember or represent who
32:33 – 32:36 they were before you know one of the
32:35 – 32:37 things that we know about well-being
32:36 – 32:39 research in general is that when
32:37 – 32:41 somebody gets happier and if they have a
32:39 – 32:43 persistent shift to being happier they
32:41 – 32:46 sort of color their entire history with
32:43 – 32:48 that happiness you know it’s it’s
32:46 – 32:51 frustrating I think for people that that
32:48 – 32:53 make legit self-help project project
32:51 – 32:55 sort of products that actually do help
32:53 – 32:56 people because those people will often
32:55 – 32:57 get to the end of the process and
32:56 – 33:00 they’re clearly happier but they’ll
32:57 – 33:02 insist that they’re not you know it’s
33:00 – 33:05 because they’ve forgotten how unhappy
33:02 – 33:06 they were at the beginning of that of
33:05 – 33:08 going to that course or whatever it was
33:06 – 33:15 you know that shifted them so our human
33:08 – 33:16 system renormalize no way to know who
33:15 – 33:17 the hell these people were I mean they
33:16 – 33:19 were telling me their stories a little
33:17 – 33:20 bit about you know who they were before
33:19 – 33:24 but I just knew that I couldn’t believe
33:20 – 33:26 any of it except in broad strokes and so
33:24 – 33:27 came basically where we wanted a B data
33:26 – 33:30 you know where we wanted
33:27 – 33:32 before-and-after data and so that’s
33:30 – 33:37 where the finders course protocol came
33:32 – 33:38 from so we started I always believed
33:37 – 33:39 that we would get to this with brain
33:38 – 33:43 stimulation which is what we’re working
33:39 – 33:45 on right now hard core like weird that’s
33:43 – 33:46 our that’s one of our two most major
33:45 – 33:49 projects right now because the
33:46 – 33:53 technology is sort of finally there but
33:49 – 33:54 back back then five years ago it was
33:53 – 33:55 very clear and I would say six seven
33:54 – 33:58 years ago when we first started thinking
33:55 – 34:01 about these creating a protocol it was
33:58 – 34:04 very clear to me that brain stimulation
34:01 – 34:06 was not going to get there you know we
34:04 – 34:08 we tried everything at the time I was a
34:06 – 34:11 professor in Hong Kong for a year and
34:08 – 34:13 doing research interviews in Asia and
34:11 – 34:15 being in Hongkong I took advantage of
34:13 – 34:17 the you know reduced regulation and
34:15 – 34:19 litigious environment and all of that
34:17 – 34:20 and we just really went to town we had a
34:19 – 34:23 neuroscience lab there at Hong Kong
34:20 – 34:25 Polytechnic or the 64 channel AG system
34:23 – 34:28 and so we just really went to town
34:25 – 34:29 testing brain stem and it was just clear
34:28 – 34:30 that none of them were gonna reach the
34:29 – 34:33 regions of interest in the brain that
34:30 – 34:36 we’d previously identified using other
34:33 – 34:38 neuroscience work and so we went back
34:36 – 34:40 and we went to the questionnaires that
34:38 – 34:42 we had people fill out and all of the
34:40 – 34:44 data and just tried to find anything
34:42 – 34:46 that might help us get to a navy model
34:44 – 34:48 and this is gonna sound funny probably
34:46 – 34:51 to listeners I think it always sounds
34:48 – 34:53 funny to people but we asked a question
34:51 – 34:57 I mean no kidding right we asked the
34:53 – 34:60 question that was so what worked for you
34:57 – 35:03 right and people answered that question
34:60 – 35:06 right but I didn’t actually believe that
35:03 – 35:07 we would get accurate answers on that
35:06 – 35:09 question and the reason for that is
35:07 – 35:10 because one thing that I learned about
35:09 – 35:13 spiritual teachers by the time we were
35:10 – 35:15 doing serious data analysis was that
35:13 – 35:17 they really never taught or talked they
35:15 – 35:18 didn’t seem to they didn’t seem to teach
35:17 – 35:22 or talk much about the thing that
35:18 – 35:24 actually worked for them and so that’s I
35:22 – 35:25 know a little bit of a strange puzzle
35:24 – 35:30 because you would think that like if you
35:25 – 35:31 know what am I most admire and most
35:30 – 35:33 significant transition was from
35:31 – 35:36 something called headless way which
35:33 – 35:37 people can go look up so my own personal
35:36 – 35:38 shift of consciousness came from
35:37 – 35:41 something called headless
35:38 – 35:42 right a headless way sounds ridiculous
35:41 – 35:45 you know it’s basically like you
35:42 – 35:47 pointing at your face you know asking
35:45 – 35:48 yourself do I have a head I mean it
35:47 – 35:50 sounds like the most ludicrous method
35:48 – 35:52 ever right and so when I was
35:50 – 35:54 interviewing people you know I would be
35:52 – 35:56 like you know well tell me about your
35:54 – 35:58 background they oh you know 25 years of
35:56 – 35:60 you know this type of Tibetan meditation
35:58 – 36:02 and this other Buddhist meditation
35:60 – 36:03 before that and what I’m like oh is that
36:02 – 36:05 what transitioned you and they’re
36:03 – 36:06 they’re like and you would see it like
36:05 – 36:07 it almost like a deer in the headlights
36:06 – 36:09 right because they didn’t want to say it
36:07 – 36:11 was headless way and you want to say
36:09 – 36:12 that they spent 30 years sitting on a
36:11 – 36:15 cushion
36:12 – 36:17 you know torturing themselves and then
36:15 – 36:18 they pointed at their face one day and
36:17 – 36:21 that was the thing that transitioned
36:18 – 36:24 them to fundamental well-being right and
36:21 – 36:26 so and so I just didn’t I I never
36:24 – 36:27 bothered to look at the answers on that
36:26 – 36:28 question because I just didn’t think
36:27 – 36:30 that they would be accurate but they
36:28 – 36:34 actually did turn out to be accurate so
36:30 – 36:37 that was a bad mistake on my part and we
36:34 – 36:38 were able to sort those into a handful
36:37 – 36:40 of categories you could make it five or
36:38 – 36:42 six categories depending upon how you
36:40 – 36:43 want to think about these methods and
36:42 – 36:45 then we BIST basically started
36:43 – 36:46 systematically trying them out and it
36:45 – 36:49 turned out that they work for a large
36:46 – 36:52 percentage of people so that became the
36:49 – 36:54 protocol and that was a game changer for
36:52 – 36:57 us because then you could invest money
36:54 – 36:59 in research you know up to that point I
36:57 – 37:00 mean you can’t just say yeah I can’t
36:59 – 37:02 just go into a Buddhist community and
37:00 – 37:03 pick out who’s gonna transition next
37:02 – 37:05 week so that you can you know measure
37:03 – 37:07 them before and afterward so it would
37:05 – 37:10 have been an expensive and almost an
37:07 – 37:15 impossible proposition but having that
37:10 – 37:16 protocol made that possible and so then
37:15 – 37:19 we had a problem with the protocol of
37:16 – 37:22 people not doing it because it’s long
37:19 – 37:24 it’s four months it’s you know at least
37:22 – 37:26 an hour and a half to two and a half
37:24 – 37:27 hours a day I mean like you’ve got to
37:26 – 37:29 really want this
37:27 – 37:31 so when you say protocol let’s make sure
37:29 – 37:33 we understand there’s something out
37:31 – 37:36 there called the finders course you run
37:33 – 37:40 the finders course an online course that
37:36 – 37:43 is a combination of video and small
37:40 – 37:45 group sessions with different exercises
37:43 – 37:47 you’re doing protocols you’re following
37:45 – 37:51 both inside the group and individually
37:47 – 37:52 including meditation including positive
37:51 – 37:54 psychology
37:52 – 37:55 including all these things it’s broken
37:54 – 37:58 off it’s a 12-week
37:55 – 37:59 kind of program right I think 17 weeks
37:58 – 38:02 beginning to end now
37:59 – 38:05 okay 17 weeks there’s aftercare at the
38:02 – 38:06 end of it there’s also a lot of data
38:05 – 38:09 gathering so you’re gonna have to fill
38:06 – 38:11 out a bunch of forms at the beginning
38:09 – 38:13 that it’s gonna kind of like you just
38:11 – 38:15 said pinpoint where you’re at so you
38:13 – 38:17 can’t fudge the numbers and say I was
38:15 – 38:20 happy any of it you know back here when
38:17 – 38:23 you first did it we ran all the numbers
38:20 – 38:25 on all these standardized well-being
38:23 – 38:27 measures and this is where you’re at and
38:25 – 38:29 this is where you’re at now and that
38:27 – 38:32 might not matter to you but it matters
38:29 – 38:34 to us because again we’re also looking
38:32 – 38:36 at what does this mean for the planet
38:34 – 38:38 what does this mean for a billion people
38:36 – 38:40 and that’s always been a goal of this
38:38 – 38:44 and and that is at the time this was
38:40 – 38:47 just a research project but now I know
38:44 – 38:49 it’s really more of just a product that
38:47 – 38:52 we’re deciding to put out there you know
38:49 – 38:55 we reached a point not long ago where I
38:52 – 38:58 would say I mean it’s been with in
38:55 – 39:00 recent months of doing this interview
38:58 – 39:03 where we just don’t need anymore data
39:00 – 39:06 like that you know I mean we’ve got five
39:03 – 39:09 years of data you know like another
39:06 – 39:11 cohort of data added to that is not
39:09 – 39:13 going to make it more significant it’s
39:11 – 39:16 not going to increase the power or the
39:13 – 39:17 statistical power or effect sizes or
39:16 – 39:19 anything like that I mean we just we
39:17 – 39:22 basically just don’t need anymore
39:19 – 39:23 and so we’ve cut way back on the data
39:22 – 39:26 collection part of it and then the
39:23 – 39:28 question for us was do we kill it you
39:26 – 39:30 know or do we continue to make it
39:28 – 39:32 available frankly and we really thought
39:30 – 39:35 about it
39:32 – 39:36 and we decided you know this is as far
39:35 – 39:38 as I know the most effective thing
39:36 – 39:39 that’s out there so we probably
39:38 – 39:42 shouldn’t kill it
39:39 – 39:46 on the other hand we’re our research has
39:42 – 39:47 moved on to other areas and so so anyway
39:46 – 39:49 we’re keeping it out there and we’re in
39:47 – 39:51 the process of transitioning it into
39:49 – 39:53 literally just being an online course
39:51 – 39:55 essentially which is what we which is
39:53 – 39:56 what it looked like from the very
39:55 – 39:58 beginning but we never thought of it
39:56 – 39:60 that way and the reason it looked like
39:58 – 40:02 that was because the way we got people
39:60 – 40:04 to ultimately go all the way through it
40:02 – 40:06 was to make it into what looked like a
40:04 – 40:07 class instead of a psychology experiment
40:06 – 40:10 right I mean everybody that’s ever
40:07 – 40:11 taught psych 101 knows that even when
40:10 – 40:14 you’re even for extra credit
40:11 – 40:16 even for part of their grade you know
40:14 – 40:19 you still can’t get people to do like
40:16 – 40:23 middle of odds of experiments over the
40:19 – 40:24 course of you know a semester they still
40:23 – 40:26 will drop out of your experiments and
40:24 – 40:28 significant numbers it’s annoying as
40:26 – 40:30 that is and of course most psychology
40:28 – 40:31 research is when you read most
40:30 – 40:34 psychology papers they’re basically done
40:31 – 40:35 on undergraduates that are in a psych
40:34 – 40:37 101 class or something like that I mean
40:35 – 40:40 they never say that they very rarely
40:37 – 40:42 admit to that but the vast majority of
40:40 – 40:44 human psychology results are psych 101
40:42 – 40:46 students or whatever who are basically
40:44 – 40:48 forced to do it for part of their grade
40:46 – 40:50 or to get extra credit depending upon
40:48 – 40:51 the institution’s policy in the part of
40:50 – 40:55 the world and what the professor can get
40:51 – 40:58 away with for that from our perspective
40:55 – 41:00 what we decided to do we experiment a
40:58 – 41:02 lot of things and then we just decided
41:00 – 41:04 to make it we made it look like a class
41:02 – 41:05 basically we made it look like a public
41:04 – 41:06 class that we were always completely
41:05 – 41:08 straightforward with people that it was
41:06 – 41:10 research they always had to signed
41:08 – 41:12 consent documents for the you know IR
41:10 – 41:15 bees and stuff like that and obviously
41:12 – 41:17 they had to tolerate endless hours of
41:15 – 41:20 data collection in order to take the
41:17 – 41:21 class and all of that so I don’t think
41:20 – 41:23 anybody had any illusions about whether
41:21 – 41:24 or not it was actually about they were
41:23 – 41:26 actually participating it whether or not
41:24 – 41:28 they were you know being studied right
41:26 – 41:31 the headline that we’re gonna find in
41:28 – 41:33 the finders and anyone who comes across
41:31 – 41:36 your research the headline is quite
41:33 – 41:39 dramatic and astounding but it is what
41:36 – 41:42 the data is this is phenomenally
41:39 – 41:45 successful in transitioning people to a
41:42 – 41:47 new state of well-being that isn’t
41:45 – 41:50 comparable to anything we’ve seen in the
41:47 – 41:51 past I mean how far can we go with that
41:50 – 41:54 how far do you feel comfortable going
41:51 – 41:56 with that yeah you know people can go to
41:54 – 41:59 non sinn vaka org and look on the
41:56 – 42:01 publication’s page and they can see a
41:59 – 42:03 talk that I gave to a division of the
42:01 – 42:05 American Anthropological Association as
42:03 – 42:07 one of their keynotes that has like it’s
42:05 – 42:09 like an hour to our talk or something
42:07 – 42:11 and just has it all in there and so that
42:09 – 42:14 really probably is the last tranche or
42:11 – 42:15 set of data that we will spend a huge
42:14 – 42:17 amount of time analyzing and thinking
42:15 – 42:18 through and so that I would consider
42:17 – 42:22 that or up
42:18 – 42:23 data and so that was a 70% transition
42:22 – 42:26 rate essentially to these types of
42:23 – 42:28 things and people can look and they can
42:26 – 42:30 see the Signet mean the you know when
42:28 – 42:33 psychologists look at those numbers they
42:30 – 42:35 look impossible I mean you shouldn’t be
42:33 – 42:37 able to have like a 50% drop in
42:35 – 42:39 neuroticism that’s a you know your
42:37 – 42:41 personality traits for just to pick one
42:39 – 42:43 example of one piece one tiny piece of
42:41 – 42:46 data your personality traits are
42:43 – 42:47 supposed to be relatively stable you
42:46 – 42:49 know you shouldn’t be able to take a
42:47 – 42:51 four month program and have a 50% drop
42:49 – 42:54 in eroticism or whatever right highlight
42:51 – 42:57 a couple other data points stress
42:54 – 42:59 happiness yeah stress happiness there’s
42:57 – 43:01 a G’s I mean I’m not thinking too much
42:59 – 43:04 about these numbers anymore but I think
43:01 – 43:06 there’s like a 40% drop on depression
43:04 – 43:09 measures on the Center for
43:06 – 43:10 epidemiological studies depression
43:09 – 43:11 measure which is one of the main
43:10 – 43:13 depression measures all the measures
43:11 – 43:16 were like major measures you know huge
43:13 – 43:18 shifts and the mysticism type measures
43:16 – 43:20 of course as one would expect I you know
43:18 – 43:22 for me personally one of the most I was
43:20 – 43:24 I would give these presentations every
43:22 – 43:25 year at the interested scientific
43:24 – 43:27 conferences and stuff right they would
43:25 – 43:28 just invite us to present over here
43:27 – 43:31 because who the heck else is doing this
43:28 – 43:34 right and I remember there was there
43:31 – 43:36 were always like a few people that I was
43:34 – 43:39 really waiting to see when I tipped them
43:36 – 43:42 over with data you know like the just
43:39 – 43:45 the die-hard skeptics in the room right
43:42 – 43:47 the people who really just did not want
43:45 – 43:49 to believe our findings in many cases
43:47 – 43:50 because they were Buddhist themselves
43:49 – 43:52 even though they were also
43:50 – 43:54 neuroscientists or whatever else and and
43:52 – 43:57 so they just had they had fundamental
43:54 – 43:60 philosophical ideological beliefs that
43:57 – 44:02 made them diametrically opposed to our
43:60 – 44:04 data and I remember a couple years ago I
44:02 – 44:07 think I was presenting there was one guy
44:04 – 44:08 that was left right and I love him to
44:07 – 44:09 death I won’t say who it is but I love
44:08 – 44:12 him to death he’s a friend of mine I
44:09 – 44:14 have enormous respect for his work he’s
44:12 – 44:16 he’s one of I think the most important
44:14 – 44:21 people in the neuroscience of this space
44:16 – 44:22 but you know as close as as much as we
44:21 – 44:25 like each other and as much as respect
44:22 – 44:26 each other you know he was a hardened
44:25 – 44:28 critic of our work for a very long time
44:26 – 44:30 and I remember I was in this one
44:28 – 44:32 presentation and I was just sort of we
44:30 – 44:34 finally had enough pieces of
44:32 – 44:36 data between well being the between the
44:34 – 44:38 well-being and depression stuff and
44:36 – 44:41 between the personality measures stuff
44:38 – 44:43 like the neuroticism drop and I could
44:41 – 44:46 tell that like the one piece of evidence
44:43 – 44:49 that probably tipped it for him was the
44:46 – 44:52 meaning measures so we collected data on
44:49 – 44:55 personal meaning and there is this one
44:52 – 44:57 measure that that looks at meaning in
44:55 – 44:58 two different ways these people are very
44:57 – 44:59 accurately I mean it’s of impressive
44:58 – 45:02 work right they’ve gotten to this with a
44:59 – 45:04 measure and so they look at meaning as
45:02 – 45:07 that what they call presence and search
45:04 – 45:09 and search really is seeking and it’s
45:07 – 45:11 like a negative form of meaning making
45:09 – 45:14 but they’ve found a way to measure it
45:11 – 45:16 and presence is essentially like just
45:14 – 45:18 being at peace with things and so it’s
45:16 – 45:20 like the form of meaning you want right
45:18 – 45:23 it’s like the positive form of meaning
45:20 – 45:27 that’s so elusive for Humanity and we
45:23 – 45:29 had just really clear you know highly
45:27 – 45:31 statistically significant results that
45:29 – 45:33 basically showed that in this population
45:31 – 45:36 of people reporting fundamental
45:33 – 45:38 well-being that you have this the search
45:36 – 45:41 seeking portion of meaning if you will
45:38 – 45:43 you know really significantly dropping
45:41 – 45:45 and the presence form of meaning really
45:43 – 45:47 significantly increasing I’d not and I
45:45 – 45:49 don’t think I’ve ever presented that
45:47 – 45:51 particular data before but I could tell
45:49 – 45:52 it was that piece and also a piece of
45:51 – 45:54 data on disassociation and
45:52 – 45:57 depersonalization was just I like I
45:54 – 45:58 could just see his face change you know
45:57 – 46:00 and after that it was there wasn’t any
45:58 – 46:02 more criticism it was like you know that
46:00 – 46:04 okay you’ve you’ve got the puzzle like
46:02 – 46:06 I’m convinced like you’ve got the puzzle
46:04 – 46:09 those are all of the puzzle pieces that
46:06 – 46:12 I would need to see that’s really what
46:09 – 46:13 we’ve done but so anyway now we’re gonna
46:12 – 46:15 keep we’re keeping the course out there
46:13 – 46:17 the course it’s renowned now it is a
46:15 – 46:19 course actually it’s not we’re still
46:17 – 46:21 collecting data because we figure why
46:19 – 46:23 not but we’re collecting a lot less of
46:21 – 46:24 it than we’ve ever collected in the past
46:23 – 46:26 and we think you know maybe some PhD
46:24 – 46:28 student will come along someday I want
46:26 – 46:29 to dig into a bunch of it or whatever
46:28 – 46:32 else there’s no reason to not be
46:29 – 46:34 collecting the data because at the same
46:32 – 46:37 time people can also sort of see their
46:34 – 46:38 own change we use you pens online
46:37 – 46:40 psychology measures thing for a chunk of
46:38 – 46:42 it and so they can see their own before
46:40 – 46:43 and after results on all of these
46:42 – 46:45 leading measures that’s basically now
46:43 – 46:47 actually a class and where are
46:45 – 46:49 searches moved on to is very different
46:47 – 46:52 than that let’s talk about that because
46:49 – 46:53 I’ve spent a good deal of time rehashing
46:52 – 46:55 stuff that we already talked about but I
46:53 – 46:57 think it’s it’s important because if you
46:55 – 46:59 jump into the middle of this and just
46:57 – 47:01 talk about what’s going forward it’s
46:59 – 47:03 such an amazing story it’s so unique
47:01 – 47:06 what you’ve done we just can’t stress
47:03 – 47:07 that enough whether people like it or
47:06 – 47:10 don’t like it
47:07 – 47:12 whether you’re that grumpy Buddhists
47:10 – 47:15 neuroscience type who’s sitting there
47:12 – 47:17 going this isn’t it or whether you’re a
47:15 – 47:19 spiritual seeker who’s so attached to
47:17 – 47:21 your own tradition that you feel like
47:19 – 47:24 this guy is gonna take the secret sauce
47:21 – 47:26 out of what you already know there’s all
47:24 – 47:28 sorts of reasons to be a hater on this
47:26 – 47:30 stuff and I’m sure you’ve encountered
47:28 – 47:31 all of them but here’s what happened I
47:30 – 47:33 sent you this email I said hey your some
47:31 – 47:36 things we would like to talk about you
47:33 – 47:37 just boomed like laser zeroed in said
47:36 – 47:39 hey I think we’ve talked about a lot of
47:37 – 47:42 that stuff already here’s some of the
47:39 – 47:44 stuff that I think is going on right now
47:42 – 47:47 that would be interesting to your
47:44 – 47:51 listeners so the data that you have
47:47 – 47:54 allows you to scrutinize spiritual
47:51 – 47:58 claims in a way that wasn’t possible
47:54 – 48:01 before it’s a knife and in your hand you
47:58 – 48:04 are not unwilling to wield that knife
48:01 – 48:06 sometimes at some folks who you think
48:04 – 48:09 deserve it so here’s what you said we
48:06 – 48:11 basically feel like those systems that
48:09 – 48:14 is religious systems like Buddhism and
48:11 – 48:18 others have failed for a millennia
48:14 – 48:21 failed humanity essentially except as
48:18 – 48:25 some sort of minimal cultural carrier
48:21 – 48:27 it’s not difficult to transition people
48:25 – 48:29 this is what you’re saying is hey I’ve
48:27 – 48:31 been doing this guys we’ve run it we’ve
48:29 – 48:33 collected the data we know how to do it
48:31 – 48:35 it’s not difficult to transition people
48:33 – 48:37 which everyone thinks is impossible so
48:35 – 48:41 the fact that these systems aren’t
48:37 – 48:44 routinely doing it at scale is an
48:41 – 48:46 indication that they’re best left in the
48:44 – 48:48 past I mean that’s gonna piss a lot of
48:46 – 48:49 people off right there
48:48 – 48:52 I mean I don’t care if you’re in that in
48:49 – 48:54 the audience seeing your data or not
48:52 – 48:56 yeah process that yeah you know we have
48:54 – 48:58 a scientific framework not a religious
48:56 – 48:60 framework right I’m not a religious sky
48:58 – 49:01 though obviously we’ve had a lot of
48:60 – 49:03 religious scholars on the project and
49:01 – 49:05 associated with the project and whatnot
49:03 – 49:07 because they’re interested in meeting
49:05 – 49:10 people who are relate to the things that
49:07 – 49:12 you know they studied or whatever but to
49:10 – 49:15 us it’s it’s it really is sort of
49:12 – 49:18 becoming that clear you know we have had
49:15 – 49:22 such a massive amount of hostility
49:18 – 49:24 directed at us in recent years as we’ve
49:22 – 49:25 conducted these experiments and as we’ve
49:24 – 49:28 been sort of more routinely
49:25 – 49:31 transitioning people from these various
49:28 – 49:32 systems and we’ve done I feel like a lot
49:31 – 49:34 of outreach
49:32 – 49:36 you know we’ve allowed a lot of people
49:34 – 49:39 from those systems to use our programs
49:36 – 49:41 for free or even subsidizing them in
49:39 – 49:43 other ways or even adapting things in
49:41 – 49:44 other ways and allowing them to run them
49:43 – 49:45 in person because there are more
49:44 – 49:47 comfortable running things in person
49:45 – 49:50 then not even making them use our online
49:47 – 49:52 format and protocol and you know I feel
49:50 – 49:55 like we’ve done as much as we can do to
49:52 – 49:57 really sort of reach out and yet there’s
49:55 – 50:01 still just such hostility that comes
49:57 – 50:03 from those folks and you know I I mean
50:01 – 50:04 how happy can you really be if you’re
50:03 – 50:07 that hostile if you’re really
50:04 – 50:09 experiencing this stuff it’s hard to be
50:07 – 50:10 that hostile you know you’re more I
50:09 – 50:12 would like to think you’re a little more
50:10 – 50:14 like us where you’re asking yourself
50:12 – 50:15 what can I do to help this person and
50:14 – 50:17 that’s really significant I mean I think
50:15 – 50:20 the outreach part is really significant
50:17 – 50:24 for people to hear people who are
50:20 – 50:26 critics it’s like you know oh this guy’s
50:24 – 50:28 just doing it for the money or as
50:26 – 50:29 heavy-handed or he’s isn’t that whatever
50:28 – 50:31 you want to say about the way he’s
50:29 – 50:33 conducted his research and I think at
50:31 – 50:36 this point it’s just beyond question
50:33 – 50:38 like he just said it’s research look at
50:36 – 50:39 the outreach look at when people come to
50:38 – 50:42 him and say hey I really think this
50:39 – 50:43 could benefit this group if we did it in
50:42 – 50:45 this way and I think the general vibe
50:43 – 50:47 that I get back and I did from the
50:45 – 50:49 beginning when I heard he was like okay
50:47 – 50:51 great well you know here’s how you might
50:49 – 50:53 go about doing that good luck to you you
50:51 – 50:55 know I mean how can you criticize that
50:53 – 50:58 but here’s the other thing you said in
50:55 – 51:02 the email to be spiritual salesmanship
50:58 – 51:05 around fundamental well being has just
51:02 – 51:07 been completely bogus yeah I think so I
51:05 – 51:08 think we got to process that a lot I
51:07 – 51:11 think we got to really break that apart
51:08 – 51:14 because we have to understand
51:11 – 51:16 and what that resistance what that
51:14 – 51:19 jealousy is about it’s not the whole
51:16 – 51:22 story the big story is what you’re
51:19 – 51:25 talking about 70% of people can feel
51:22 – 51:27 better about themselves and beef along
51:25 – 51:30 their path whatever that path takes them
51:27 – 51:33 they can help but there is a built-in
51:30 – 51:34 resistance to the system that I’d like
51:33 – 51:37 that you bring out your sword and you
51:34 – 51:39 want to slash away at spiritual
51:37 – 51:41 salesmanship around this idea of
51:39 – 51:44 fundamental living has been completely
51:41 – 51:45 bogus in what ways has it been bogus in
51:44 – 51:48 this area you know when I first started
51:45 – 51:50 trying to research this area it was so
51:48 – 51:52 hard
51:50 – 51:54 and the reason it was so hard was
51:52 – 51:57 because the general view of it within
51:54 – 52:00 the psychology establishment was that
51:57 – 52:03 the claims are so anti materialist right
52:00 – 52:05 and so it’s all just get enlightened and
52:03 – 52:08 then basically you’re the path ahead of
52:05 – 52:11 you is just paved with gold it’s all
52:08 – 52:13 just perfect synchronistic unfoldment I
52:11 – 52:14 mean you know you if you’re hungry and
52:13 – 52:16 you want an orange you just hold out
52:14 – 52:17 your hand and visualize an orange and
52:16 – 52:19 the orange shows up in your hand you
52:17 – 52:21 know but but if you’re really advanced
52:19 – 52:22 you just infuse the orange ‘no sin to
52:21 – 52:25 your system you don’t even bother with
52:22 – 52:28 that or these are actual things you know
52:25 – 52:29 that we heard and so i think that
52:28 – 52:31 traditionally one thing that’s been
52:29 – 52:33 interesting about the people who have
52:31 – 52:35 pursued fundamental well-being which is
52:33 – 52:37 a tiny percent of the population a tiny
52:35 – 52:39 tiny tiny percent of the population
52:37 – 52:42 probably in the hundreds of thousands of
52:39 – 52:44 English speakers you know native english
52:42 – 52:45 Western English speakers so that’s a
52:44 – 52:49 very small group of people right who
52:45 – 52:50 have really really pursued it I’m not
52:49 – 52:52 talking about people who don’t want
52:50 – 52:56 their ego to be happier or whatever but
52:52 – 52:58 who have really pursued this fundamental
52:56 – 53:00 wellbeing shift it’s a relatively small
52:58 – 53:03 number of people and it was a and by and
53:00 – 53:05 large it was a mostly unhappy group of
53:03 – 53:08 people and so that’s colored a lot of
53:05 – 53:10 things relating to this in the West and
53:08 – 53:12 from a public standpoint
53:10 – 53:14 well there’s also let me play play this
53:12 – 53:17 out and see what you think you go back
53:14 – 53:20 to your story right which is everybody’s
53:17 – 53:22 story I’m unhappy I’m not as happy as I
53:20 – 53:25 think I should be I’m not as happy as
53:22 – 53:27 those TV ads tell me I can be
53:25 – 53:29 I want to be happier so you have
53:27 – 53:31 somewhat of a spiritual bent and maybe
53:29 – 53:33 you have like a anti religious bent like
53:31 – 53:35 a lot of us do when you say somebody
53:33 – 53:38 says meditation you go oh okay
53:35 – 53:40 meditation what should I do and you go
53:38 – 53:42 online you meditation I know the Zen
53:40 – 53:44 people meditate so you find the local
53:42 – 53:46 Zen people that’ll let you come in and
53:44 – 53:49 sit down and you start meditating or you
53:46 – 53:51 start taking a yoga class and there’s
53:49 – 53:54 all this stuff that they’re saying
53:51 – 53:56 around all these things so you wind up
53:54 – 53:59 following it in some cases for years and
53:56 – 54:00 years and you wind up scratching your
53:59 – 54:03 head and go you know what I really
54:00 – 54:05 wanted was I wanted to feel better I
54:03 – 54:07 wanted to feel more a sense of
54:05 – 54:10 well-being am I really getting there
54:07 – 54:14 with that I think that’s what I read out
54:10 – 54:16 of this aspect of spiritual salesmanship
54:14 – 54:19 that I think you’re directly debunking
54:16 – 54:21 which is to say if this is what you say
54:19 – 54:24 you want we can measure it in these ways
54:21 – 54:26 then why wouldn’t we want to as directly
54:24 – 54:29 as possible try and achieve that what’s
54:26 – 54:32 wrong with that I agree yeah absolutely
54:29 – 54:33 and I would say you know one of the
54:32 – 54:35 problems with it where the spiritual
54:33 – 54:37 salesmanship I think comes in is in the
54:35 – 54:39 sales process I talk about what
54:37 – 54:41 fundamental well-being is it’s pretty
54:39 – 54:45 much the opposite of the normal sense of
54:41 – 54:48 self right and so if you’re in your
54:45 – 54:51 normal sense of self and I’m trying to
54:48 – 54:52 convince you that fundamental well-being
54:51 – 54:56 is where it’s at
54:52 – 54:58 it sounds thoroughly undesirable to your
54:56 – 54:60 normal sense of self right that’s so
54:58 – 55:02 profound but let’s break that down a
54:60 – 55:03 little bit yeah let’s really get into
55:02 – 55:05 this and let’s really talk about all of
55:03 – 55:07 this because I think this is it’s
55:05 – 55:09 important and for a long time you know
55:07 – 55:12 we’ve we’ve avoided these types of
55:09 – 55:14 conversations I think out of I don’t
55:12 – 55:16 know politeness but it didn’t get us
55:14 – 55:18 anywhere it just kept getting us
55:16 – 55:19 attacked more and more and more and more
55:18 – 55:20 and more and more and more and now I
55:19 – 55:22 think we’re sort of done with avoiding
55:20 – 55:25 these types of conversations and you
55:22 – 55:27 know whatever else because it just to us
55:25 – 55:29 it just seems so clear having cut a
55:27 – 55:31 swath across so many different
55:29 – 55:33 communities right the patterns are just
55:31 – 55:35 there all over the place and they’re not
55:33 – 55:36 limited to one particular group or
55:35 – 55:38 another particular group or whatever
55:36 – 55:40 else right so let me go back and
55:38 – 55:41 let me let me talk a little bit if I
55:40 – 55:43 could just real quick about what you
55:41 – 55:46 said a minute ago right we know it’s not
55:43 – 55:47 that we don’t see a value in religion
55:46 – 55:50 and spiritual systems we absolutely do
55:47 – 55:51 right we use a lot of their methods that
55:50 – 55:54 they’ve come up with for hundreds of
55:51 – 55:57 years they’ve been a very important
55:54 – 55:59 cultural carrier across millennia across
55:57 – 56:02 the rise and fall of Empires that tend
55:59 – 56:03 to wipe out knowledge and histories and
56:02 – 56:06 whatever else they have they have been
56:03 – 56:08 like a cultural carrier thread through
56:06 – 56:10 that a culture carrier of what obviously
56:08 – 56:13 personal carrier of the knowledge that
56:10 – 56:15 this that fundamental well-being exists
56:13 – 56:17 and that you can reach it and of having
56:15 – 56:18 clues for how to reach it and I think
56:17 – 56:21 that’s very valuable and if you think
56:18 – 56:22 back to if you you know if you think
56:21 – 56:24 back to who knows how many hundreds of
56:22 – 56:27 years ago like those little tibetan
56:24 – 56:30 Tinka symbol things were created right
56:27 – 56:32 but that’s an amazing technology you
56:30 – 56:34 know this if you measure those things
56:32 – 56:36 there most of them the real ones are
56:34 – 56:37 like a 10 Hertz binaural beat designed
56:36 – 56:40 to be held up to each side of your head
56:37 – 56:43 I mean like somebody hundreds of years
56:40 – 56:45 ago created a genius piece of
56:43 – 56:46 consciousness altering technology
56:45 – 56:48 they’re right
56:46 – 56:50 a lot of these things that they’ve come
56:48 – 56:53 up with were brilliant and cutting-edge
56:50 – 56:55 in their day the problem for us is that
56:53 – 56:57 it’s you know what we look at it
56:55 – 56:59 critically is that at some point that
56:57 – 57:01 just seems to have stopped right I mean
56:59 – 57:03 for the last hundred and fifty years
57:01 – 57:06 there’s been a siam ager scientific
57:03 – 57:08 revolution going on right where have
57:06 – 57:12 been where are the modern tincture bells
57:08 – 57:14 coming out of these traditions that was
57:12 – 57:16 just bleeding edge science and
57:14 – 57:18 engineering at some point however many
57:16 – 57:19 hundreds of thousands I don’t know the
57:18 – 57:22 history on those sainte-chapelle things
57:19 – 57:25 right are those simple things they were
57:22 – 57:27 at one point on the absolute bleeding
57:25 – 57:29 edge of science and technology of human
57:27 – 57:31 consciousness but but it’s I think it’s
57:29 – 57:34 undeniable that at some point that
57:31 – 57:36 stopped right and I’m living evidence of
57:34 – 57:38 that I should never have had to spend
57:36 – 57:41 the last twelve years of my life doing
57:38 – 57:43 this right I mean for hundreds of years
57:41 – 57:46 those traditions could have been keeping
57:43 – 57:48 up with science as it was evolving I
57:46 – 57:52 mean the EEG was invented over a hundred
57:48 – 57:53 years ago at this point right I mean
57:52 – 57:55 anyone from any of these traditions
57:53 – 57:57 could have been like hey let’s see
57:55 – 57:59 what’s coming out of our meditation
57:57 – 58:01 teachers head and see if we can start
57:59 – 58:05 advancing this right but where was that
58:01 – 58:06 per se right so it’s not that it’s not
58:05 – 58:08 that throughout all of human history
58:06 – 58:10 there was no value I think there was
58:08 – 58:12 tremendous value but it’s almost like
58:10 – 58:16 that that value proposition stopped
58:12 – 58:18 advancing at a certain point and human
58:16 – 58:20 culture kept moving on and now there’s
58:18 – 58:22 this tremendous out of phase miss you
58:20 – 58:24 know one of the things that we pick up
58:22 – 58:29 on in in our participant research
58:24 – 58:31 especially people who come in to the
58:29 – 58:35 finders course when it was an experiment
58:31 – 58:37 as it’s very clear that you know they’ve
58:35 – 58:39 been involved in Buddhism not because
58:37 – 58:41 they love the the lore of Buddhism but
58:39 – 58:42 because they think that that’s where
58:41 – 58:44 some method might exist that might
58:42 – 58:45 increase their well-being right it’s
58:44 – 58:49 almost like most of them are trying to
58:45 – 58:51 avoid the dogma of Buddhism but get the
58:49 – 58:53 method that they think might actually
58:51 – 58:55 you know assist them and some way I
58:53 – 58:58 remember I was sitting I was researching
58:55 – 59:01 this famous Tibetan guy one time and I
58:58 – 59:03 was sitting in a small group of kind of
59:01 – 59:05 like elite people that he was teaching
59:03 – 59:07 waiting for him to get done so that I
59:05 – 59:08 could you know talk to him afterward I
59:07 – 59:10 had an appointment scheduled with him
59:08 – 59:12 afterward and I he’s like come early I’m
59:10 – 59:14 gonna give this teaching and so I came
59:12 – 59:15 early to give this teaching he’s talking
59:14 – 59:18 about the Buddha coming out of the side
59:15 – 59:19 of his mother being born out of the side
59:18 – 59:22 of his mother and all of this various
59:19 – 59:26 dogma to this roomful of wealthy
59:22 – 59:28 Westerners frankly who were like can we
59:26 – 59:31 please get to the meditation park right
59:28 – 59:33 like the last thing they wanted to hear
59:31 – 59:35 was the Buddha coming out of the side of
59:33 – 59:37 his mother or whatever else right and
59:35 – 59:40 but they’re having to sort of suffer
59:37 – 59:42 through that in some sense to get to the
59:40 – 59:43 thing that they actually showed up for
59:42 – 59:44 which was meditation that they were
59:43 – 59:46 hoping would relieve some of their
59:44 – 59:48 psychological suffering and so so it’s
59:46 – 59:50 not that I think that there’s that
59:48 – 59:52 there’s a wholesale lack of a value
59:50 – 59:56 proposition there but you know let’s
59:52 – 59:57 face it we’re not all in P n SE for some
59:56 – 60:00 reason we’re not all in fundamental
59:57 – 60:02 well-being for some reason and and these
60:00 – 60:04 are the systems that have taken a crack
60:02 – 60:05 at it for hundreds and thousands of
60:04 – 60:07 years
60:05 – 60:10 at this point and so I don’t think that
60:07 – 60:12 you can say wow look at the success that
60:10 – 60:15 that has been and you certainly can’t
60:12 – 60:17 say wow look at how they’ve kept up with
60:15 – 60:21 their technologies and how they have
60:17 – 60:23 evolved into modern eras you know no one
60:21 – 60:26 sitting in that room of wealthy people
60:23 – 60:27 wanted to look like one of their life to
60:26 – 60:30 be like that Tibetan teacher’s life
60:27 – 60:32 right they wanted this integrated into
60:30 – 60:36 their own life they wanted a modern
60:32 – 60:38 secular Western version of this that
60:36 – 60:42 solved their fundamental core well-being
60:38 – 60:46 problems and then you know allowed them
60:42 – 60:49 to live a modern Western lifestyle not
60:46 – 60:52 having to renounce meat or sex or money
60:49 – 60:54 or you know dress in some certain way or
60:52 – 60:57 you know any of those other things like
60:54 – 60:59 they want to go to work tomorrow or do
60:57 – 61:00 their investing tomorrow or whatever it
60:59 – 61:02 is that particular group did and so
61:00 – 61:04 that’s where that’s that’s what I was
61:02 – 61:05 trying to convey basically sort of you
61:04 – 61:07 know that’s where we come out there’s we
61:05 – 61:08 think there’s tremendous value and a lot
61:07 – 61:10 of these things and to the degree that
61:08 – 61:12 they help but they help I think that’s
61:10 – 61:15 fantastic well we really feel like
61:12 – 61:18 there’s this whole other approach that
61:15 – 61:19 is more suited to modernity and then I
61:18 – 61:21 the other thing that I would add to that
61:19 – 61:24 would be on the flip side of the
61:21 – 61:27 spiritual salesmanship thing you know it
61:24 – 61:28 is incredibly tempting to give in to
61:27 – 61:32 spiritual salesmanship
61:28 – 61:35 it is incredibly tempting to say you
61:32 – 61:38 know what your sense your your
61:35 – 61:40 synchronicity will increase to the point
61:38 – 61:42 where life will be effortless for you
61:40 – 61:43 Alex this is the thing that you’ve been
61:42 – 61:45 looking life is such a struggle for you
61:43 – 61:48 I know it’s been such a struggle for you
61:45 – 61:51 up to this point in your life but you
61:48 – 61:53 can have this deep inner peace and just
61:51 – 61:55 this perfect unfolding or everything is
61:53 – 61:57 synchronistic and like this life is
61:55 – 61:59 waiting for you Alex that you just can’t
61:57 – 62:02 man you just can’t imagine it you’ve
61:59 – 62:03 just got to have this shift right and so
62:02 – 62:04 that’s what I mean when I’m talking
62:03 – 62:08 about spiritual salesmanship right and
62:04 – 62:09 there are absolutely you know types of
62:08 – 62:11 fundamental well-being where it feels
62:09 – 62:14 like every moment is a hundred percent
62:11 – 62:16 synchronistic there’s no doubt about
62:14 – 62:19 that right that is not a lie if I’m in
62:16 – 62:20 that place to say to you it
62:19 – 62:23 can feel like life is a hundred percent
62:20 – 62:25 synchronistic all right however I know
62:23 – 62:27 people who are in that place of a
62:25 – 62:29 hundred percent system synchronistic who
62:27 – 62:32 have lost their houses to foreclosure
62:29 – 62:34 who have gone to prison who have had
62:32 – 62:37 what outwardly to the rest of us would
62:34 – 62:41 seem like highly negative life events
62:37 – 62:43 and so for them to also say the other
62:41 – 62:46 part of that statement which is you know
62:43 – 62:48 life will just unfold magically for you
62:46 – 62:51 there will be no more struggle now what
62:48 – 62:53 their meaning internally is oh I lost my
62:51 – 62:54 house well big deal who cares I’ll just
62:53 – 62:57 go sleep under a bridge
62:54 – 63:01 no big struggle right but what you hear
62:57 – 63:03 as a normal human being is not oh I
63:01 – 63:06 won’t all I may lose my house but I
63:03 – 63:08 won’t care if I’m sleeping under a
63:06 – 63:11 bridge for the rest of my life that will
63:08 – 63:14 still feel you know sort of fine and
63:11 – 63:17 synchronistic and you know whatever else
63:14 – 63:19 and so there’s the ending and they know
63:17 – 63:21 when they’re communicating these things
63:19 – 63:24 how you’re hearing it they know that
63:21 – 63:25 you’re not understanding it in their
63:24 – 63:27 from their own perspective right but
63:25 – 63:29 they’re kind of justifying it from their
63:27 – 63:30 own perspective and it’s sort of
63:29 – 63:32 justifying what they’re saying from
63:30 – 63:35 their own perspective because they’re
63:32 – 63:38 not really lying to you right that is
63:35 – 63:40 how they’re experiencing the world it is
63:38 – 63:44 deep inner peace it is a hundred percent
63:40 – 63:46 synchronicity it is an imperturbable you
63:44 – 63:48 know from where they’re at it does feel
63:46 – 63:50 like everything is happening exactly as
63:48 – 63:51 it should no matter how adverse the
63:50 – 63:53 events that are happening to them or
63:51 – 63:55 whatever else right but they’re not
63:53 – 63:57 saying to you oh hey by the way I lost
63:55 – 63:59 my house last week you know they’re
63:57 – 64:02 leaving out facts like that and they’re
63:59 – 64:05 letting sort of your brain fill in this
64:02 – 64:07 sort of magical existence that you can
64:05 – 64:09 have if only you’ll transition it’s a
64:07 – 64:11 fundamental well-being and so in that
64:09 – 64:14 sense you know we kind of take issue
64:11 – 64:16 from that’s where I talk about that’s
64:14 – 64:18 what I mean when I say sort of spiritual
64:16 – 64:20 salesmanship it’s not necessarily pure
64:18 – 64:22 dishonesty from their own internal
64:20 – 64:23 phenomenological experience but on the
64:22 – 64:26 other hand they’re not really giving you
64:23 – 64:27 the whole picture either in terms of
64:26 – 64:28 their own struggles and their what you
64:27 – 64:30 would what the normal person would
64:28 – 64:32 consider their own life struggle right
64:30 – 64:32 they’re giving you the part where it’s
64:32 – 64:35 like man
64:32 – 64:38 I want that you know your egos like yeah
64:35 – 64:41 I’m tired of struggling life sucks I
64:38 – 64:44 want that but they’re not telling you
64:41 – 64:47 that what your ego calls struggle well
64:44 – 64:49 you know still exist for you basically
64:47 – 64:51 on the other side those life events that
64:49 – 64:53 your ego refers to as struggling in the
64:51 – 64:55 world are not gonna probably go away for
64:53 – 64:57 you there’s challenges with that too
64:55 – 64:59 though I mean and I think you understand
64:57 – 65:01 that but as soon as you get into the
64:59 – 65:03 prescriptive model and away from the
65:01 – 65:06 descriptive model of the social
65:03 – 65:08 scientist your layering your own values
65:06 – 65:09 on there which sure you know we’re
65:08 – 65:11 pointing at those people and saying
65:09 – 65:14 their values but I don’t want to bury
65:11 – 65:15 the lead because the leads no it’s no
65:14 – 65:18 question that’s travel lead story is so
65:15 – 65:22 important which is as a social scientist
65:18 – 65:25 as you cut away everything that isn’t
65:22 – 65:28 then it opens up the possibility for
65:25 – 65:29 everyone to determine what is what is
65:28 – 65:31 for them what part of their tradition
65:29 – 65:33 they want to take what part they don’t
65:31 – 65:35 need how much of it is social
65:33 – 65:37 engineering how much of it is someone
65:35 – 65:40 trying to get in their pocket for their
65:37 – 65:42 cults for their religion for their build
65:40 – 65:45 a church down on the corner how much of
65:42 – 65:48 it is some kind of larger scale SIOP to
65:45 – 65:51 control and manipulate all that stuff as
65:48 – 65:53 the social scientist you cut cut cut cut
65:51 – 65:55 cut and you say all right I now have the
65:53 – 65:58 essence you can go with it from there
65:55 – 66:01 but I certainly understand and we can
65:58 – 66:03 all appreciate a little bit of rage that
66:01 – 66:06 comes up in interacting with these
66:03 – 66:09 communities who are so insistent that
66:06 – 66:12 they’re layering is the only layering
66:09 – 66:13 that one can do on that but I guess this
66:12 – 66:16 is there anything more we want to say
66:13 – 66:20 about what you’ve labeled is integration
66:16 – 66:23 how we how we yeah this awakening that
66:20 – 66:25 comes through the finders course comes
66:23 – 66:27 through this experience and then
66:25 – 66:29 integrating it into our life yeah
66:27 – 66:31 absolutely you can say a lot about it
66:29 – 66:33 and let me let me add that you know
66:31 – 66:36 there are especially I think in the
66:33 – 66:38 non-dual community the modern sort of
66:36 – 66:39 contemporary non-dual community and if
66:38 – 66:42 you think about someone like Scott
66:39 – 66:43 killaby Scott has publicly identified
66:42 – 66:46 himself as having participated on our
66:43 – 66:46 research to people and so I can say that
66:46 – 66:48 he’s participate
66:46 – 66:51 research I’m not gonna give out you know
66:48 – 66:52 data about him or whatever but just to
66:51 – 66:55 say that I you know I have sat down with
66:52 – 66:58 him at length had very meaningful
66:55 – 66:60 conversations with him etc etc he’s a
66:58 – 67:03 great example I think of someone who is
66:60 – 67:05 doing their level best to avoid those
67:03 – 67:07 sort of dilemmas those Western moral
67:05 – 67:09 dilemmas if you will from a spiritual
67:07 – 67:11 salesmanship standpoint right I remember
67:09 – 67:13 reading this post from him there was
67:11 – 67:16 this thing going around about a guy
67:13 – 67:19 named Fred Davis who is I think a very
67:16 – 67:20 effective actually non-dual teacher and
67:19 – 67:21 I don’t remember actually what the
67:20 – 67:23 scandal was there was some sort of
67:21 – 67:24 scandal going around and I remember
67:23 – 67:26 thinking that doesn’t really seem like a
67:24 – 67:28 big deal it’s a big deal I think if you
67:26 – 67:30 have a certain belief system around how
67:28 – 67:31 all of these people are supposed to be
67:30 – 67:33 perfect beings that you know don’t spit
67:31 – 67:34 their food out when they’re talking to
67:33 – 67:36 you over dinner and stuff like that
67:34 – 67:38 right but if you don’t have a view of
67:36 – 67:41 them as being perfect beings you’re like
67:38 – 67:43 what’s the big deal there yeah so Scott
67:41 – 67:46 wrote this post where he was like
67:43 – 67:49 essentially like well here’s all the
67:46 – 67:51 shit that’s been wrong in my life I mean
67:49 – 67:54 it was just this amazing transparent
67:51 – 67:56 post and I think the non you know some
67:54 – 67:58 of these non-dual teachers in the
67:56 – 68:01 non-dual portion of this overall
67:58 – 68:04 spiritual religious sort of world have
68:01 – 68:07 in recent years really tried hard to be
68:04 – 68:10 straightforward about this and I’ve been
68:07 – 68:12 very very impressed by that because
68:10 – 68:13 that’s a that’s a brave thing to do for
68:12 – 68:15 their businesses if you’re in
68:13 – 68:17 competition with a guy across the road
68:15 – 68:19 in the non-dual space and that guy’s
68:17 – 68:21 talking about life being perfect for you
68:19 – 68:23 in their version of non-duality after
68:21 – 68:25 you transition and then you read a post
68:23 – 68:27 from someone like Scott who’s talking
68:25 – 68:29 about his own personal struggles and his
68:27 – 68:31 own difficulties in his own life and
68:29 – 68:34 it’s just being brutally honest and just
68:31 – 68:36 laying it all bare because of course we
68:34 – 68:37 all have them when you’re like us and
68:36 – 68:39 you sort of know all these people and
68:37 – 68:40 know that they all have them some are
68:39 – 68:42 just choosing to talk about them and
68:40 – 68:45 some aren’t choosing to talk about them
68:42 – 68:48 that is just so amazing to me and so
68:45 – 68:50 brave and it is a trend and so it’s it
68:48 – 68:53 is a coming trend there is a push back
68:50 – 68:55 in at least a section of that non-dual
68:53 – 68:57 community here in America that is like
68:55 – 68:59 really just trying to bare-knuckle it
68:57 – 68:60 and I think we really need to give
68:59 – 69:02 acknowledgement
68:60 – 69:04 to that so from our standpoint for
69:02 – 69:05 integration you know what we’ve been
69:04 – 69:08 trying to convince teachers of for a
69:05 – 69:09 long time now is that they don’t need
69:08 – 69:10 they should I don’t think that they
69:09 – 69:13 should really feel in competition for
69:10 – 69:14 seekers they really have you know it’s
69:13 – 69:16 like there’s not that many seekers
69:14 – 69:17 really sincere seekers out there and so
69:16 – 69:19 if you’re trying to earn a living doing
69:17 – 69:21 this that could be challenging and it’s
69:19 – 69:23 like oh my gosh I don’t want to lose my
69:21 – 69:24 secret or that other guy because there’s
69:23 – 69:26 you know how am I gonna replace that
69:24 – 69:28 secret it took me forever to get that
69:26 – 69:30 guy and so there’s a lot of sort of this
69:28 – 69:33 business stuff that goes on behind the
69:30 – 69:35 scenes in these worlds as well right one
69:33 – 69:37 of the things that I think you’re gonna
69:35 – 69:38 see happening if we’re successful
69:37 – 69:41 especially you’re gonna see it happening
69:38 – 69:42 is you’re gonna see a transition for
69:41 – 69:45 these people and how they think about
69:42 – 69:48 themselves because to my mind I think a
69:45 – 69:50 spiritual teacher is not necessarily
69:48 – 69:53 always the greatest help in
69:50 – 69:55 transitioning someone but they are an
69:53 – 69:57 immense help on the other side of
69:55 – 69:60 transitioning because there aren’t that
69:57 – 70:03 many people in the world who have been
69:60 – 70:05 through the life integration process of
70:03 – 70:07 this stuff right I mean on the other
70:05 – 70:09 side of this the reason that you the
70:07 – 70:11 reason you don’t see more genuine
70:09 – 70:13 advertising around this stuff is that
70:11 – 70:15 for instance it’s very common for a year
70:13 – 70:17 to two years after the transition to
70:15 – 70:19 have a significant drop in motivation so
70:17 – 70:21 there’s a fundamental shift that occurs
70:19 – 70:22 in your goal attainment you know your
70:21 – 70:25 goals have basically been driven by an
70:22 – 70:27 erotic impulses in you which drop away
70:25 – 70:30 right and when you’re when you’re
70:27 – 70:31 neuroticism drops and your goals fall
70:30 – 70:33 away guess what falls away with that
70:31 – 70:35 motivation right and it’s like your
70:33 – 70:38 brain has to go through a period of time
70:35 – 70:40 or it’s unraveling your former
70:38 – 70:42 motivation system and rebuilding a new
70:40 – 70:44 motivation system and everybody wants to
70:42 – 70:46 hear I’m gonna get enlightened and I’m
70:44 – 70:49 going to be ten times more effective in
70:46 – 70:51 my job right nobody wants to hear I’m
70:49 – 70:53 gonna have issues with motivation or
70:51 – 70:55 nobody wants to hear I’m going to
70:53 – 70:57 transition to this entirely other way of
70:55 – 70:59 seeing the world and a consequence of
70:57 – 71:02 that is that I’m gonna feel sort of like
70:59 – 71:05 an alien now living in normal reality
71:02 – 71:08 because 99.5% of the rest of the
71:05 – 71:10 population is experiencing life in this
71:08 – 71:12 highly neurotic way
71:10 – 71:14 my wife my boyfriend my girlfriend my
71:12 – 71:16 husband my wife my boyfriend my kids my
71:14 – 71:20 whoever write every friend I have
71:16 – 71:22 everybody at work literally my entire
71:20 – 71:24 world but and you know and I used to
71:22 – 71:28 experience that I just experienced it
71:24 – 71:30 yesterday I still have a you know fairly
71:28 – 71:32 decent memory of what that experience
71:30 – 71:33 was like but you know I don’t want to
71:32 – 71:36 sit around and talk to these people
71:33 – 71:38 about their neurotic stories anymore my
71:36 – 71:41 life is no longer a game of me sitting
71:38 – 71:42 there validating your neurotic story so
71:41 – 71:44 that you’ll sit there validating my
71:42 – 71:48 neurotic story right like that to me is
71:44 – 71:50 like just a reduction in my piece not a
71:48 – 71:52 leveling up of my piece and so I’m just
71:50 – 71:54 not interested in doing that anymore you
71:52 – 71:57 know I’m not that interested in reading
71:54 – 71:58 the novels that I read for years or
71:57 – 72:00 watching the TV series with you because
71:58 – 72:02 they’re all these story driven neurotic
72:00 – 72:03 sort of things you know that are
72:02 – 72:05 designed to hit me in certain ways and
72:03 – 72:06 make me feel certain ways or whatever
72:05 – 72:09 like I’m at peace I don’t need that
72:06 – 72:11 stuff anymore right and so there’s like
72:09 – 72:15 these significant life changes that
72:11 – 72:18 occur and who’s talking about that right
72:15 – 72:19 because like I mean how many people are
72:18 – 72:21 going to sign up for your program to
72:19 – 72:22 some degree and we take a huge risk on
72:21 – 72:23 this right because we have all kinds of
72:22 – 72:25 research out there that basically says
72:23 – 72:28 this is what it’s like on the other side
72:25 – 72:29 of this and so you know you like you
72:28 – 72:32 sign up with us you sort of know what
72:29 – 72:34 you’re getting I understand the dilemma
72:32 – 72:37 and I’ve seen I even know the histories
72:34 – 72:38 of a lot of these organizations you know
72:37 – 72:40 at what point different advertising
72:38 – 72:42 things were incorporated or at what
72:40 – 72:44 point methods were shifted to go from
72:42 – 72:46 being an hour to being twenty minutes so
72:44 – 72:47 that you could pull more people and even
72:46 – 72:49 though you know it’s not as effective as
72:47 – 72:51 the hour nonetheless you can’t grow to a
72:49 – 72:52 certain size if you don’t have it at ten
72:51 – 72:55 or twenty minutes or one minute or five
72:52 – 72:56 minutes or you know whatever it is I get
72:55 – 72:58 the business decisions that were behind
72:56 – 73:00 all of these things even though to the
72:58 – 73:02 adherence it’s all nothing is business
73:00 – 73:03 it’s none of this it’s all nothing to do
73:02 – 73:05 with business but of course these were
73:03 – 73:08 all strategic marketing and business
73:05 – 73:09 decisions that have been made as I was
73:08 – 73:11 listening to this over the years I was
73:09 – 73:13 thinking to myself how are we going to
73:11 – 73:17 avoid this I mean I spent the mid-90s
73:13 – 73:18 sort of running a chunk of the the heart
73:17 – 73:20 of one of the worlds at the time the
73:18 – 73:21 world’s first and most significant
73:20 – 73:22 advertising glamour right and I’ve got a
73:21 – 73:25 background
73:22 – 73:27 in advertising and marketing and I was
73:25 – 73:29 listening to these people’s business
73:27 – 73:31 descriptions you know and how they
73:29 – 73:32 devolved them over time and the decision
73:31 – 73:34 that they’d come to and how they’d
73:32 – 73:36 morally justified them inside their own
73:34 – 73:38 minds and all of that and the whole time
73:36 – 73:39 that I’m listening to that I’m noting it
73:38 – 73:41 for research but I’m also sort of
73:39 – 73:43 thinking to myself holy crap you know
73:41 – 73:46 how can you get around that and I think
73:43 – 73:47 there isn’t a good way to get around it
73:46 – 73:49 you sort of have to you have to make a
73:47 – 73:51 decision to go one way or the other it
73:49 – 73:54 has to either be I’m gonna give you the
73:51 – 73:55 life as a synchronistic golden path you
73:54 – 73:56 know everything is going to be perfect
73:55 – 73:58 for you and not tell you that I just
73:56 – 73:59 lost my house I’m gonna sort of leave
73:58 – 74:00 that part out of it
73:59 – 74:03 but I’m being honest about how this
74:00 – 74:05 moment is feeling for me or you have to
74:03 – 74:07 be like you know you’re gonna have major
74:05 – 74:10 life changes here you’re gonna your life
74:07 – 74:12 as a finder it’s going to be to some
74:10 – 74:14 degree a moment depending upon where you
74:12 – 74:15 land the degree of agency you still have
74:14 – 74:17 all of that I mean let’s leave all that
74:15 – 74:19 aside for the moment in terms of
74:17 – 74:20 debating the nuances of fundamental well
74:19 – 74:22 being and the different types of it and
74:20 – 74:24 all that and let me just say generically
74:22 – 74:27 you know to some degree your life is
74:24 – 74:29 going to be a moment-to-moment decision
74:27 – 74:31 of how much of that deep internal piece
74:29 – 74:33 are you willing to erode for personal
74:31 – 74:36 effectiveness in the world because the
74:33 – 74:38 entire rest of the world is sort of anti
74:36 – 74:42 that internal personal effectiveness and
74:38 – 74:44 so integration at its heart 4p NSE comes
74:42 – 74:46 down to psychological deconditioning and
74:44 – 74:47 undoing all of those old programming
74:46 – 74:48 patterns because you don’t have the
74:47 – 74:51 sense of self reinforcing them anymore
74:48 – 74:52 and optimum ways to do that and you know
74:51 – 74:54 that’s a lot of our research and a lot
74:52 – 74:56 of our work right now and so that’s all
74:54 – 74:57 really important but the fundamental
74:56 – 74:60 question of living in the world comes
74:57 – 75:03 down to how much of my piece am I going
74:60 – 75:04 to erode in order to have an X degree of
75:03 – 75:06 effectiveness and so there’s a there’s
75:04 – 75:09 for instance a high divorce rate among
75:06 – 75:11 people not advertised right like who’s
75:09 – 75:14 putting that in their you know web pages
75:11 – 75:16 right hey come and get enlightened then
75:14 – 75:18 you’ll probably get divorced but there’s
75:16 – 75:20 a high degree of divorce right among
75:18 – 75:23 this right because you wake up and you
75:20 – 75:25 have you know this spouse that is still
75:23 – 75:26 there they’re not awake they’re not
75:25 – 75:28 happy that you’re happy all the time I
75:26 – 75:29 mean as much as we would like to think
75:28 – 75:31 that they have our best interest at
75:29 – 75:33 heart in every moment of our life you
75:31 – 75:34 know the reality is like now you’re sort
75:33 – 75:36 of the shining example of what their
75:34 – 75:37 system has been yearning for
75:36 – 75:39 since they were a little kid or what
75:37 – 75:41 anyone in the relationship understands
75:39 – 75:44 there’s dynamics and when those dynamics
75:41 – 75:46 change everything changes you know let
75:44 – 75:47 me just anyway no I just want to take it
75:46 – 75:50 in a slightly different direction
75:47 – 75:53 because you said something I think that
75:50 – 75:55 might be very I wasn’t saying profound
75:53 – 75:59 but it’s not just profound I think it’s
75:55 – 76:01 probably true from a guy who is a bit of
75:59 – 76:03 a futurist and has kind of created this
76:01 – 76:06 future I know you’re very much
76:03 – 76:10 into tech not for the sake of tech but
76:06 – 76:13 as a tool for maybe facilitating this
76:10 – 76:16 transition and I wonder if that’s also
76:13 – 76:20 informing this future you see because if
76:16 – 76:23 tech does begin to play more of a role
76:20 – 76:27 of this then we have technology that’s
76:23 – 76:31 facilitating change it lessens the need
76:27 – 76:34 for someone in the physical form doing
76:31 – 76:39 that on a one-on-one or even one on ten
76:34 – 76:41 basis but it would then maybe bring the
76:39 – 76:43 high touch aspect back into the
76:41 – 76:45 integration like you’re talking about
76:43 – 76:47 because it would just seem to me that
76:45 – 76:49 potentially that’s what you also
76:47 – 76:52 envision or am I wrong there yeah I do
76:49 – 76:54 think that it’s difficult for me knowing
76:52 – 76:56 what I know now of course we can all be
76:54 – 76:59 wrong you know in the next 10 seconds
76:56 – 77:02 right but it’s difficult for me to know
76:59 – 77:05 to to think knowing what I know now that
77:02 – 77:07 this is going to be translatable to six
77:05 – 77:10 billion people in a non technological
77:07 – 77:12 form we’ve analyzed the data from the
77:10 – 77:14 finest course every way we possibly can
77:12 – 77:16 and one key thing about the finders
77:14 – 77:19 course that failed I think our biggest
77:16 – 77:22 failure to date is that we have not been
77:19 – 77:23 able to find a way to match people up
77:22 – 77:25 with a method that works for them that’s
77:23 – 77:26 what the entire course tries to do right
77:25 – 77:27 you basically go a week to week to week
77:26 – 77:29 and you try different stuff that is all
77:27 – 77:31 the best stuff that rose to the top of
77:29 – 77:32 our research and you do it in a certain
77:31 – 77:35 systematic way that increases its
77:32 – 77:37 effectiveness and all that but the
77:35 – 77:38 reality is fundamentally what we were
77:37 – 77:39 trying to get out with that experiment
77:38 – 77:41 what we were trying to do with that
77:39 – 77:43 experiment was not really refine our
77:41 – 77:45 understanding of fundamental well-being
77:43 – 77:47 which we did but it was to figure out
77:45 – 77:49 can I give you a pencil and paper
77:47 – 77:50 questionnaire or interview you for a
77:49 – 77:52 couple of minutes or so
77:50 – 77:55 thing and then say you know what Alex
77:52 – 77:57 Headless way is your thing man that’s
77:55 – 77:58 what you need that’s the thing you know
77:57 – 77:60 just do it for this week and you’ll be
77:58 – 78:01 you’ll be awake by Friday you know
77:60 – 78:04 you’ll transition to fundamental well
78:01 – 78:05 being by Friday and it’ll all be good
78:04 – 78:07 come back to us and you know I’ll give
78:05 – 78:08 you some integration stuff just let me I
78:07 – 78:10 mean maybe it’ll happen Wednesday
78:08 – 78:11 Thursday you know whenever it happens
78:10 – 78:13 just you know just ping me and I’ll
78:11 – 78:15 shoot you some integration stuff over
78:13 – 78:17 right so we never we have not yet
78:15 – 78:19 reached a point with our data analysis
78:17 – 78:21 that has allowed us to do that you still
78:19 – 78:24 have to take the whole program and who
78:21 – 78:27 the heck you know in a developing
78:24 – 78:29 country can spend 2 to 3 hours the Dyke
78:27 – 78:31 in the West it’s more doable for a
78:29 – 78:33 certain class of people at least to be
78:31 – 78:36 able to do that like it can have the
78:33 – 78:38 impact that it has among the people that
78:36 – 78:39 it’s sort of a possible fit for but it
78:38 – 78:42 is not going to scale to a billion
78:39 – 78:45 people it’s not going to scale to 500
78:42 – 78:47 million people and because we we
78:45 – 78:49 fundamentally were not able to be
78:47 – 78:52 successful at creating that matching
78:49 – 78:54 algorithm which could potentially allow
78:52 – 78:56 a more traditional thing like just a
78:54 – 78:58 psychological intervention like a
78:56 – 79:00 meditation or a cognitive science hack
78:58 – 79:03 or a positive psychology exercise or
79:00 – 79:05 whatever it is to scale you know it’s I
79:03 – 79:08 think in my mind it’s going to come down
79:05 – 79:09 to technology unless you know I mean you
79:08 – 79:10 never know we have machine learning
79:09 – 79:12 people and AI people that are
79:10 – 79:13 volunteering their time on the project
79:12 – 79:15 looking at that data deep mining it
79:13 – 79:17 something might come out of that that
79:15 – 79:19 just humans couldn’t see with standard
79:17 – 79:21 statistical methods and analyses I won’t
79:19 – 79:22 rule that out and so you know I could
79:21 – 79:26 you know we could get off the phone I
79:22 – 79:28 could check my email and be like oh hey
79:26 – 79:29 Alex I got to revise that statement
79:28 – 79:31 right that could happen at any time but
79:29 – 79:33 I’m not a but I’m assuming if that still
79:31 – 79:35 wouldn’t shut down the tech path either
79:33 – 79:38 I mean the tech path would still have to
79:35 – 79:41 continue to go forward as well I think
79:38 – 79:45 the point you made about the sound
79:41 – 79:48 frequency of the Tibetan symbols is I
79:45 – 79:50 think undeniable at some level so it
79:48 – 79:51 does seem like the technology has to go
79:50 – 79:55 forward that has to be part of this
79:51 – 79:57 mission yeah yeah I think so unless
79:55 – 79:59 something – unless something
79:57 – 80:03 dramatically changes right now where
79:59 – 80:06 we’re basically pinning our hopes on
80:03 – 80:08 a sort of a combination of transcranial
80:06 – 80:10 light stimulation meaning light that
80:08 – 80:15 goes through the skull and transcranial
80:10 – 80:16 ultrasound stimulation and the problem
80:15 – 80:18 for the transcranial ultrasound
80:16 – 80:21 stimulation is it once it’s out of the
80:18 – 80:23 lab there’s going to be you know
80:21 – 80:25 ridiculously long and expensive FDA
80:23 – 80:26 processes and you know stuff like that
80:25 – 80:31 in order to make it more widely
80:26 – 80:33 available to people and so it’s it’s got
80:31 – 80:35 a lot of regulatory hurdles for the West
80:33 – 80:36 associated with I think that’s less true
80:35 – 80:38 I think it can probably affect a lot of
80:36 – 80:41 populations in places like India or
80:38 – 80:42 China or whatever before that and
80:41 – 80:46 probably those populations will be the
80:42 – 80:47 ones that the benefit initially but and
80:46 – 80:49 I think that’s fine because there’s
80:47 – 80:51 billions of people there we’re not
80:49 – 80:53 really sort of country centric per se in
80:51 – 80:55 any way you know we’re sort of just like
80:53 – 80:59 getting this to as many people as we can
80:55 – 81:00 possibly get it to oriented so but the
80:59 – 81:03 transcranial ultrasound stuff you know
81:00 – 81:04 the our chief scientist here literally
81:03 – 81:05 came to me a couple of morning’s ago and
81:04 – 81:07 was like you know I think we’ve reached
81:05 – 81:09 the point where we have where we can say
81:07 – 81:11 that we’re really reliably getting
81:09 – 81:13 people into location1 a fundamental well
81:11 – 81:16 being you know with this technology now
81:13 – 81:18 it’s still extremely expensive you know
81:16 – 81:21 you’re talking about really sort of all
81:18 – 81:24 I mean our budget is in the millions a
81:21 – 81:26 year for that project and so if you were
81:24 – 81:28 to divide out you know the amount of
81:26 – 81:32 stimulation time that’s possibly today
81:28 – 81:34 by millions of dollars you know you get
81:32 – 81:36 to a very high cost for that at this
81:34 – 81:38 particular moment in time but you know
81:36 – 81:41 we get up every day and we work on it
81:38 – 81:42 and we’re advancing it and you know we
81:41 – 81:43 have a lot of really great people
81:42 – 81:46 working with us all around the world on
81:43 – 81:49 it and it’s easy for me to see over the
81:46 – 81:50 next four or five six years having
81:49 – 81:53 something that is really quite
81:50 – 81:55 accessible technologically okay Jeffrey
81:53 – 81:56 we’ve been at this for an hour and a
81:55 – 81:58 half you’ve been incredibly generous
81:56 – 82:01 with your time I really do hope people
81:58 – 82:03 check out this book the finders and your
82:01 – 82:06 website where you can just a ton of
82:03 – 82:08 information once you dive in you’ll find
82:06 – 82:12 your own path I can’t resist though
82:08 – 82:14 talking about a couple of map versus
82:12 – 82:17 territory questions because as we said
82:14 – 82:21 you are a social scientist but
82:17 – 82:24 you’re also location for and beyond guy
82:21 – 82:26 which I’ll leave folks to figure out for
82:24 – 82:29 themselves what have you learned what
82:26 – 82:32 has your personal experience been with
82:29 – 82:36 some of the things that I care about in
82:32 – 82:39 terms of this extended consciousness
82:36 – 82:42 realm that does seem to be out there
82:39 – 82:44 once we get past this busy ordinary
82:42 – 82:47 state that bogs this down minute to
82:44 – 82:50 minute so I want to talk about nd ease
82:47 – 82:54 psychedelics hungry ghosts and demons
82:50 – 82:57 shamans and magic ET all these things
82:54 – 82:59 are things that interest me I’ll let you
82:57 – 83:00 pull on any one of those threads to
82:59 – 83:03 begin with
83:00 – 83:06 sure so the in the finders I’d I had to
83:03 – 83:10 add a chapter on location five and
83:06 – 83:11 beyond because frankly too many people
83:10 – 83:13 who have just taken the finders course
83:11 – 83:14 experiment and participated in the
83:13 – 83:16 finders course experiment have gone
83:14 – 83:18 there now and so I had hesitated for a
83:16 – 83:20 long time and talking about those
83:18 – 83:22 locations and let me just say why before
83:20 – 83:23 we get into what you’re talking about
83:22 – 83:25 which we can totally talk about I
83:23 – 83:27 hesitate about talking about these
83:25 – 83:28 latter locations because I think they’re
83:27 – 83:30 a little dangerous
83:28 – 83:32 this is this goes back to where systems
83:30 – 83:34 do have tremendous value you know like I
83:32 – 83:36 have an enormous amount of respect for
83:34 – 83:37 Tibetan Buddhism for instance I think
83:36 – 83:40 that they have a very detailed map I
83:37 – 83:42 think that they have a huge range of
83:40 – 83:45 methods that are highly and precisely
83:42 – 83:47 effective across that map very difficult
83:45 – 83:49 for Westerners to get to I think even
83:47 – 83:51 very devoted Westerners and part of that
83:49 – 83:53 is that because they believe that a lot
83:51 – 83:56 of those methods only work literally at
83:53 – 83:57 specific physical places even and so and
83:56 – 83:59 some of and it’s interesting because
83:57 – 83:60 they’ve sort of lost they feel if you
83:59 – 84:02 really talk to these guys they feel like
83:60 – 84:03 they’ve sort of lost some of their
84:02 – 84:04 effectiveness at their system because
84:03 – 84:06 you know the Chinese have taken those
84:04 – 84:08 places in some cases and it’s it’s all
84:06 – 84:10 very complicated but just generically
84:08 – 84:12 speaking I have an enormous amount of
84:10 – 84:14 respect for that particular system and
84:12 – 84:16 the degree of detail and the fine grain
84:14 – 84:17 detail and whatnot sort of is associated
84:16 – 84:20 in it one of those things that they
84:17 – 84:23 provide is the support for these later
84:20 – 84:25 locations like they really understand
84:23 – 84:27 what’s needed when you go to them they
84:25 – 84:29 understand that they’re you know very
84:27 – 84:31 isolating their version of them there’s
84:29 – 84:32 a couple of major versions of them and
84:31 – 84:34 they sort of have a preferred version of
84:32 – 84:36 them and so there is a you know very
84:34 – 84:38 isolating but also somewhat dangerous
84:36 – 84:42 and so imagine that you have sort of
84:38 – 84:44 deconstructed the sense of self down to
84:42 – 84:47 the point where you’re getting to the
84:44 – 84:49 you’re getting so early in your brains
84:47 – 84:50 programming if you just think of your
84:49 – 84:52 brain is sort of this programmed thing
84:50 – 84:54 that has been you had code layer on top
84:52 – 84:55 of code layered on top of code layer on
84:54 – 84:56 top of code you’re sort of stripping
84:55 – 84:58 those off or you’re reprogramming them
84:56 – 84:59 in different ways that are convenient as
84:58 – 85:01 you go through this process and you get
84:59 – 85:03 down low enough you eventually hit
85:01 – 85:06 things like your actual binding to your
85:03 – 85:07 sensory system in certain ways and so
85:06 – 85:10 what people actually will talk about as
85:07 – 85:12 literally losing consciousness for
85:10 – 85:13 periods of time like having a glitch in
85:12 – 85:16 the system
85:13 – 85:18 where they lose consciousness and you
85:16 – 85:21 know I’ve talked to people who were
85:18 – 85:24 found a weekend you know laying on their
85:21 – 85:27 floor rush to the hospital you know
85:24 – 85:29 we’re lucky to have lived from doing
85:27 – 85:31 certain practices that you know move
85:29 – 85:33 them into these later locations but
85:31 – 85:35 we’re doing them in an unsupervised way
85:33 – 85:38 alone in their apartment just go on
85:35 – 85:40 YouTube and look at sadhus who arms are
85:38 – 85:42 deformed because they’ve held them in a
85:40 – 85:44 particular position for long periods of
85:42 – 85:47 time and it’s another extension of the
85:44 – 85:49 same thing of reprogramming down to a
85:47 – 85:52 level where you’re yeah but go ahead
85:49 – 85:54 yeah so it’s with that caveat I just I
85:52 – 85:55 always want to talk about that caveat
85:54 – 85:58 before I talk about these later
85:55 – 86:00 locations because I think people will
85:58 – 86:02 hear like oh that sounds cool but I
86:00 – 86:05 think it’s also very important to be
86:02 – 86:07 realistic about all of this so in
86:05 – 86:08 locations 5 through 9 which is the next
86:07 – 86:10 batch we look at one through four as a
86:08 – 86:12 grouping we look at 5 through 9 as a
86:10 – 86:14 grouping in locations 5 through 9 and
86:12 – 86:17 the stuff that you’re interested in one
86:14 – 86:20 of the things that we often see is is
86:17 – 86:23 actually an increase in accuracy of
86:20 – 86:26 intuition what people might call sort of
86:23 – 86:28 psychic premonitions and stuff like that
86:26 – 86:31 I think that’s that’s very interesting
86:28 – 86:35 it’s been difficult for us to test that
86:31 – 86:37 on you know a practical level we have
86:35 – 86:40 been able to test it in some way
86:37 – 86:41 and also Dean Radin has tested some of
86:40 – 86:44 these people you know with some of his
86:41 – 86:46 presentiment analysis stuff
86:44 – 86:48 and I actually haven’t asked Dean if
86:46 – 86:50 he’s published that anywhere I only
86:48 – 86:52 talked to him about it but he you know
86:50 – 86:54 in conversation says that he has seen
86:52 – 86:56 very statistically significant
86:54 – 86:59 differences and these populations of
86:56 – 87:01 people who are in you know p n SC
86:59 – 87:03 fundamental well-being let’s dive into
87:01 – 87:05 that for a second Dean Radin just
87:03 – 87:06 interviewed him a couple months ago so
87:05 – 87:09 now he’s into the magic thing right so
87:06 – 87:11 now he’s like let’s look at magic and
87:09 – 87:13 what that means and as part of that the
87:11 – 87:15 thing that’s confusing for me is he says
87:13 – 87:18 you know I never even considered spirit
87:15 – 87:20 quote-unquote until a year ago which on
87:18 – 87:22 one hand I get and I appreciate on the
87:20 – 87:24 other hand ago how are you even you know
87:22 – 87:26 she caught a lot of catching up to do
87:24 – 87:29 but the other thing is so you enter that
87:26 – 87:31 realm and you say what does that mean
87:29 – 87:34 what does that mean that one of the
87:31 – 87:37 fungi you’re going to study claims to
87:34 – 87:39 have manifested a bunch of crows that
87:37 – 87:42 flew through his chimney and shit all
87:39 – 87:44 over the floor and the next day the
87:42 – 87:45 crows weren’t there but the crows shit
87:44 – 87:47 was there on the floor for him to see
87:45 – 87:51 and for everyone else to see I mean this
87:47 – 87:54 is altering reality in a way that
87:51 – 87:57 doesn’t fit with our ordinary
87:54 – 87:59 understanding even if we go location one
87:57 – 88:03 through four we get the sense that there
87:59 – 88:05 is this again map versus territory that
88:03 – 88:09 there’s this territory out there that
88:05 – 88:12 might be completely different from the
88:09 – 88:15 map that we normally associate with it
88:12 – 88:17 in is that ok I like as a social
88:15 – 88:18 scientist saying you know don’t worry
88:17 – 88:21 about that
88:18 – 88:23 shut up and calculate become shut up and
88:21 – 88:25 meditate I think there’s a practical
88:23 – 88:27 part of that yeah I you know I wonder a
88:25 – 88:30 lot about that as well because there
88:27 – 88:34 certainly that’s a very consistent
88:30 – 88:35 report in that location 5 to 9 range and
88:34 – 88:39 the further someone goes in that
88:35 – 88:41 location 5 to 9 range the more integral
88:39 – 88:44 to their life those types of reports
88:41 – 88:46 seem to be it’s it’s interesting I was
88:44 – 88:48 talking to a famous meditation teacher
88:46 – 88:50 who was here at the house getting
88:48 – 88:52 stemmed a couple of months ago
88:50 – 88:56 when I say house we have a facility here
88:52 – 88:59 that is like a big Silicon Valley style
88:56 – 89:01 startup house type place where the team
88:59 – 89:03 lives and where we do a lot of our
89:01 – 89:05 research that’s nice because we can have
89:03 – 89:06 people in and they can stay and you know
89:05 – 89:09 the best conversations always occur off
89:06 – 89:11 hours and things like that right so you
89:09 – 89:13 kind of want to facilitate that and we
89:11 – 89:16 were talking about locations five
89:13 – 89:18 through nine and he was very negative on
89:16 – 89:21 like the psychic stuff and the
89:18 – 89:23 psychokinesis stuff that comes after
89:21 – 89:26 location nine and and stuff like that he
89:23 – 89:28 was just like you know you cannot sort
89:26 – 89:29 his belief was you cannot sort locations
89:28 – 89:32 you should not be thinking of that as
89:29 – 89:34 the primary change that occurs in that
89:32 – 89:35 location or whatever else and our point
89:34 – 89:38 was well you know listen we’re looking
89:35 – 89:41 at the major we’re primarily cognitive
89:38 – 89:43 science focused and phenomenological you
89:41 – 89:44 know report focused as well and if
89:43 – 89:46 that’s like the major change in
89:44 – 89:48 phenomenological reports and assert or
89:46 – 89:49 one of the major changes then that’s and
89:48 – 89:53 then that becomes a major category of
89:49 – 89:54 these self-reported evidence to us we’re
89:53 – 89:56 not gonna leave that on the table but it
89:54 – 89:60 was interesting because he had this very
89:56 – 90:02 almost like a like a fervent anti for
89:60 – 90:05 God’s sakes don’t talk about that kind
90:02 – 90:08 of way about him now he’s he’s very much
90:05 – 90:09 like a mainstream sort of teacher very
90:08 – 90:12 popular a very mainstream sort of
90:09 – 90:15 teacher and I think maybe maybe it’s a
90:12 – 90:16 branding decision I’m not sure maybe he
90:15 – 90:18 just doesn’t necessarily want to
90:16 – 90:20 associate it with this sort of more
90:18 – 90:21 scientifically or in a meditation brand
90:20 – 90:25 or something like that I don’t know but
90:21 – 90:27 certainly I think I cannot deny that
90:25 – 90:30 this is reported by people in that range
90:27 – 90:32 as increasingly integral to their
90:30 – 90:33 interaction with the world and of course
90:32 – 90:36 one of the things that it makes you
90:33 – 90:38 wonder is like actually let me tell a
90:36 – 90:41 couple of other stories so there have
90:38 – 90:44 been a number of major you know random
90:41 – 90:46 number generator type research groups
90:44 – 90:48 and experiments and stuff that have gone
90:46 – 90:49 on no doubt your interest in this area
90:48 – 90:51 familiar with all of those types of
90:49 – 90:52 things so you know there’s lots of
90:51 – 90:54 different devices there’s lots of
90:52 – 90:55 different researchers and groups have
90:54 – 90:57 looked into this all over the world I
90:55 – 90:60 was having a conversation with one of
90:57 – 91:02 those groups one time and I was asking
90:60 – 91:04 them about the and this was way before I
91:02 – 91:07 was doing this this was like 2,000 sick
91:04 – 91:09 was there just a random occurrence in my
91:07 – 91:12 life really I just wound up having
91:09 – 91:13 dinner with some of them I asked them
91:12 – 91:16 about just sort of the internal
91:13 – 91:19 phenomenological state of people who
91:16 – 91:21 were able to were basically what they
91:19 – 91:23 said is that although they didn’t talk
91:21 – 91:26 about it publicly it seemed like they
91:23 – 91:27 had like one or two superstars or two or
91:26 – 91:29 three superstars or something I don’t
91:27 – 91:31 remember in that research population and
91:29 – 91:34 that when they there’s their results
91:31 – 91:36 were so sick so statistically
91:34 – 91:37 significant that when they folded that
91:36 – 91:39 in with the rest of the research
91:37 – 91:40 population they got a slight statistical
91:39 – 91:42 significance for the overall research
91:40 – 91:44 population right but because of their
91:42 – 91:45 protocol and their IRB and stuff they
91:44 – 91:46 couldn’t really just pull out those
91:45 – 91:48 three people and only report those
91:46 – 91:49 results but they became interested
91:48 – 91:50 obviously and who those people were and
91:49 – 91:52 what they were thinking and what their
91:50 – 91:54 experience of it was and all of that and
91:52 – 91:56 they basically described all of them
91:54 – 91:58 basically described a dissolution of the
91:56 – 92:01 individualized sense of self and a sense
91:58 – 92:03 of merging with the apparatus with the
92:01 – 92:06 experimental apparatus was their term
92:03 – 92:08 for their stuff experimental brains I
92:06 – 92:12 had another conversation with another
92:08 – 92:14 group this was one of the famous sr i–
92:12 – 92:15 people right so a lot of their stuff is
92:14 – 92:17 public and a lot of their stuff is
92:15 – 92:20 published and I know one of the things
92:17 – 92:21 that Russ Russ Targ has I’m sure talked
92:20 – 92:24 about publicly aside and this can’t be a
92:21 – 92:26 secret is that he basically took this
92:24 – 92:28 clock off his mantle one day and put
92:26 – 92:30 some mirrors on it and then like bounced
92:28 – 92:32 some lasers off those mirrors and then
92:30 – 92:34 like sort of put it behind a glass panel
92:32 – 92:35 on one end of a room and he brought
92:34 – 92:37 people in and he said make the pendulum
92:35 – 92:39 move you know which was one of those
92:37 – 92:40 rotational pent not like left-right
92:39 – 92:41 pendulum but like one of those
92:40 – 92:44 rotational pendulums on a mantel clock
92:41 – 92:46 ring and he’s like make those move and
92:44 – 92:48 he’d set up the lasers to basically
92:46 – 92:50 detect even the slightest movement with
92:48 – 92:53 uses a laser physicist right you know
92:50 – 92:54 bouncing off the mirrors and this was
92:53 – 92:55 you know government-funded research the
92:54 – 92:58 tune of many many millions of dollars
92:55 – 93:00 down here in Palo Alto California and
92:58 – 93:02 one day one of their research subjects
93:00 – 93:03 who thought that this was just the most
93:02 – 93:05 ludicrous thing that he’d ever been
93:03 – 93:08 assigned to as part of his internship at
93:05 – 93:10 SR I one day he’s sitting there and lo
93:08 – 93:12 and behold the thing moves and he learns
93:10 – 93:14 how to move it when asked about you know
93:12 – 93:17 what was that like for you he described
93:14 – 93:18 the same thing he described it was the
93:17 – 93:20 sense of a dissolution of my
93:18 – 93:23 dividual eyes sense of self and a sense
93:20 – 93:26 of merging with the apparatus and then
93:23 – 93:28 somehow I couldn’t seem to affect it and
93:26 – 93:30 for him that eventually became a
93:28 – 93:32 persistent fundamental well-being he
93:30 – 93:34 actually used that as a doorway to get
93:32 – 93:35 to fundamental well-being it which is
93:34 – 93:36 why I sort of stored these stories in
93:35 – 93:38 the back of my head over the years
93:36 – 93:39 because I think to myself well maybe
93:38 – 93:40 someday I will be able to invent
93:39 – 93:42 something like this there’s another
93:40 – 93:44 easier way to access fundamental
93:42 – 93:46 well-being there and then a third
93:44 – 93:48 example another set of research done
93:46 – 93:49 very very if I tell you what the
93:48 – 93:51 apparatus is you’re gonna immediately
93:49 – 93:53 know who it is so I’m not going to tell
93:51 – 93:56 what the apparatus is but really really
93:53 – 93:60 sophisticated apparatus different than
93:56 – 94:02 the random number generator stuff and I
93:60 – 94:03 just so happened to be there practically
94:02 – 94:05 the day this apparatus showed up and I
94:03 – 94:06 just happened to be hanging out with the
94:05 – 94:10 scientist in his office just sort of
94:06 – 94:12 catching up and talking hanging out and
94:10 – 94:14 their first research subject on the
94:12 – 94:16 apparatus was in doing using it you know
94:14 – 94:18 and they were – is she popped her head
94:16 – 94:20 in and she’s like okay you know I’ve got
94:18 – 94:22 to go home and he was like okay you know
94:20 – 94:24 great have a good day and I’m like well
94:22 – 94:29 hold on like let’s go look at her
94:24 – 94:30 results right like so we go back in and
94:29 – 94:32 we look and there’s like these bar
94:30 – 94:35 graphs on the screen if I’m remembering
94:32 – 94:36 right and most of them look you know not
94:35 – 94:38 statistically significant and I’m like
94:36 – 94:39 what are the bar graphs and he’s like oh
94:38 – 94:41 they’re individual trials that were
94:39 – 94:43 ronald okay great so can you remember
94:41 – 94:45 what each one of these died asked her
94:43 – 94:46 you know can be the subject could you
94:45 – 94:48 remember what each one of these trials
94:46 – 94:50 were and she’s like sure I remember what
94:48 – 94:53 I was doing for each one of them and so
94:50 – 94:55 I had her walk me through them walk us
94:53 – 94:57 through them and then she gets the last
94:55 – 94:59 couple which were very significant like
94:57 – 95:00 like you know imagine like little stubby
94:59 – 95:02 bar graphs and then really really tall
95:00 – 95:03 bar graphs right I mean like there were
95:02 – 95:05 like a night and day difference clearly
95:03 – 95:07 between these sessions and the other
95:05 – 95:08 ones and I was like okay what did you do
95:07 – 95:11 for this one and where she’s not
95:08 – 95:14 previously had any hesitation in
95:11 – 95:16 answering that question she paused and
95:14 – 95:22 you could just see the wheels turning
95:16 – 95:25 you know like if I gotta tell him and
95:22 – 95:27 I’m like you know listen think about
95:25 – 95:30 where you are right now right there’s
95:27 – 95:32 nothing that you could say it’s a döner
95:30 – 95:35 i that we’re not going to be like okay
95:32 – 95:38 whatever and so finally she’s like okay
95:35 – 95:42 well I can do this thing where it’s sort
95:38 – 95:47 of like I can make me go away she’s like
95:42 – 95:47 I know that sounds a little crazy
95:47 – 95:52 basically describe the same thing this
95:50 – 95:54 the dissolution of her sense of self
95:52 – 95:56 right I’m merging with the experimental
95:54 – 95:57 apparatus and those are the two trials
95:56 – 96:00 that robbed the charts or whatever else
95:57 – 96:03 and so those types of data points from
96:00 – 96:05 very disparate labs where I know that in
96:03 – 96:08 many cases they don’t even know each
96:05 – 96:12 other’s stories to exchange information
96:08 – 96:15 separated by over a decade
96:12 – 96:16 you know separated by many decades if
96:15 – 96:18 you include the SSRI data and probably
96:16 – 96:23 when that happened I mean who knows when
96:18 – 96:27 that happened that to me says there’s
96:23 – 96:30 there there is a potential for some sort
96:27 – 96:32 of interface between a reduction in what
96:30 – 96:34 is the traditional and narrative sense
96:32 – 96:36 of self or the ago extensive south or
96:34 – 96:39 the symbolic sense of South or whatever
96:36 – 96:41 we want to call it it’s it seems like
96:39 – 96:43 maybe I don’t know you know
96:41 – 96:45 it’s not something I’m working actively
96:43 – 96:47 on or whatever but just looking at these
96:45 – 96:49 different data presentations looking
96:47 – 96:50 it’s been reported to us from research
96:49 – 96:52 subjects from their own phenomenological
96:50 – 96:55 experience or whatever it seems possible
96:52 – 96:57 at least that that the normal sense of
96:55 – 96:59 self is just using so much of the system
96:57 – 97:02 and has so much noise generated in the
96:59 – 97:05 system that when that the more that
97:02 – 97:07 quiets down and the more you know the
97:05 – 97:08 more the system has the capacity to just
97:07 – 97:11 listen to something going on in the
97:08 – 97:13 background you know we can’t be
97:11 – 97:15 physically separated from the underlying
97:13 – 97:17 quantum reality we’ve all got to be
97:15 – 97:20 connected it’s some energetic level in
97:17 – 97:22 some way it’s not inconceivable to me
97:20 – 97:24 that there’s a potential mechanism of
97:22 – 97:27 communication there or that there’s some
97:24 – 97:28 degree of sensing that in some way it
97:27 – 97:30 could be I have nothing to do with
97:28 – 97:32 quantum stuff I mean I don’t know right
97:30 – 97:34 but this is the fact that you and I
97:32 – 97:35 think that we’re separate or that I
97:34 – 97:37 think that I’m separate from this house
97:35 – 97:39 or something and you know I don’t
97:37 – 97:40 actually anymore my own personal
97:39 – 97:42 experience of the world doesn’t feel
97:40 – 97:44 separate but I remember when I did and
97:42 – 97:45 certainly most people would say that
97:44 – 97:46 they do feel that way
97:45 – 97:48 that
97:46 – 97:52 you know that just doesn’t seem accurate
97:48 – 97:53 from a physics perspective right and so
97:52 – 97:56 I don’t I don’t it doesn’t seem
97:53 – 98:00 unreasonable to me that our system would
97:56 – 98:04 evolve in such a way that I need to you
98:00 – 98:07 know eat poop take care of my child you
98:04 – 98:09 know I need a certain level of cognition
98:07 – 98:10 in my system in order to do all that but
98:09 – 98:12 perhaps if you can just keep quieting
98:10 – 98:14 that system down more and more and more
98:12 – 98:17 and more access to other things but come
98:14 – 98:18 possible and then even on the PK front
98:17 – 98:20 right the psychokinesis front which is
98:18 – 98:22 the academic term for moving stuff with
98:20 – 98:25 your mind and making stuff manifest in
98:22 – 98:26 whatever even on that front I think it’s
98:25 – 98:28 an interesting question right because I
98:26 – 98:29 can clearly move my high end of my arm
98:28 – 98:30 pretty easily
98:29 – 98:33 what if that thing is equally possible
98:30 – 98:36 so what we see from location 10 on is
98:33 – 98:38 increased reports of what people
98:36 – 98:41 basically feel are like increased skill
98:38 – 98:42 with what they would call you know the
98:41 – 98:44 site type of psychokinesis or mind
98:42 – 98:45 matter interaction and I have to say
98:44 – 98:48 I’ve seen some crazy stuff over the
98:45 – 98:50 years but I’m not a magician right like
98:48 – 98:52 it’s pretty easy to fool me with that
98:50 – 98:54 stuff and so I always have to keep that
98:52 – 98:57 in mind I can’t tell how Penn & Teller
98:54 – 98:59 is doing a trick right if they’re like I
98:57 – 99:01 did that with my mind I’d be like yeah
98:59 – 99:02 but I think Russell Targ and those guys
99:01 – 99:03 had a pretty good handle on it I mean
99:02 – 99:05 the protocol for some of those
99:03 – 99:08 experiments it’s pretty frickin simple
99:05 – 99:10 so I never like that those kind of
99:08 – 99:13 skeptical explanations you know which
99:10 – 99:15 are so more easily debunked than the
99:13 – 99:18 other but leaving that for a minute
99:15 – 99:20 because one more topic that and I don’t
99:18 – 99:22 even know if you want to go there but I
99:20 – 99:27 just published an interview couple
99:22 – 99:30 episodes ago with a guy Navy guy 20 year
99:27 – 99:32 veteran who was part of this UFO
99:30 – 99:34 disclosure that was the largest UFO
99:32 – 99:37 disclosure in history it happened in
99:34 – 99:39 December of 2017 and was in The Wall
99:37 – 99:41 Street Journal and it was on Fox News
99:39 – 99:44 and CBS News in it was everywhere it was
99:41 – 99:46 the disclosure effort and if you blinked
99:44 – 99:47 you missed it because it didn’t get any
99:46 – 99:49 traction so I don’t know where they’re
99:47 – 99:50 going with that that’s a whole other
99:49 – 99:53 story but they came out and said yeah
99:50 – 99:55 okay we haven’t told you the truth this
99:53 – 99:58 stuff really happens here’s a program
99:55 – 99:60 here’s the video of it it happened off
99:58 – 100:02 the coast of San
99:60 – 100:03 look I I interviewed Kevin day says yeah
100:02 – 100:05 I was on board
100:03 – 100:08 it was incredible you know these things
100:05 – 100:10 how is how we tracked him and I had this
100:08 – 100:12 encounter experience now the reason I
100:10 – 100:13 got even interested in all this is
100:12 – 100:16 because I was interested in the
100:13 – 100:19 near-death experience science if you
100:16 – 100:23 will and then some folks have started to
100:19 – 100:25 do the experiencer science as well as
100:23 – 100:26 they can in terms of looking at what
100:25 – 100:30 that experience looks like across
100:26 – 100:32 various people trying to soar through
100:30 – 100:34 that data and is there’s a big overlay
100:32 – 100:36 with the near-death experience it turns
100:34 – 100:39 out a lot of times these are more
100:36 – 100:40 spiritually transformative than we
100:39 – 100:42 previously thought although they break
100:40 – 100:44 into different groups I don’t want to
100:42 – 100:45 get too far afield yeah that’s
100:44 – 100:47 definitely true we’ve interfaced with a
100:45 – 100:50 lot of those researchers here’s the
100:47 – 100:53 point that intrigues me if we accept
100:50 – 100:55 this encounter experience and the guy I
100:53 – 100:58 interviewed Kevin day says it was very
100:55 – 101:01 traumatic for me particularly because I
100:58 – 101:03 had all these symptoms that manifested
101:01 – 101:05 like PTSD complex PTSD and I’m going to
101:03 – 101:07 the vet and they’re going that’s what it
101:05 – 101:10 is I’m going yeah but that doesn’t quite
101:07 – 101:13 fit and then he comes across Jacques
101:10 – 101:15 Vallee Davis this research that they
101:13 – 101:17 compiled on encounters and the
101:15 – 101:20 after-effects of encounters and he goes
101:17 – 101:22 bingo that’s it everything they’re
101:20 – 101:24 saying there across all these people who
101:22 – 101:28 have had these encounters fits my
101:24 – 101:32 experience here’s the question it’s
101:28 – 101:34 pointing towards a technology it’s
101:32 – 101:38 really pointing towards a technology
101:34 – 101:40 that there is this consciousness out
101:38 – 101:44 there and whether it’s manifested in
101:40 – 101:47 whatever these forms are whatever these
101:44 – 101:51 others are they seem to demonstrate the
101:47 – 101:54 ability to manipulate this consciousness
101:51 – 101:56 realm in a way that we kind of
101:54 – 101:58 understand and then kind of completely
101:56 – 102:02 don’t understand telepathy is an example
101:58 – 102:05 screen memory is an example emoting
102:02 – 102:08 telepathically causing you to emote
102:05 – 102:12 certain kind of things you know whether
102:08 – 102:13 they’re sexual or not feeling things and
102:12 – 102:17 all the stuff
102:13 – 102:20 what do you think about ET have you
102:17 – 102:23 bumped into that at all are you willing
102:20 – 102:25 to be open to that and what do you think
102:23 – 102:27 about in particular what I think about
102:25 – 102:32 what do you think about what that might
102:27 – 102:34 suggest for advanced capabilities along
102:32 – 102:38 these scales that you’re already on
102:34 – 102:42 right because if you’re on this path of
102:38 – 102:47 protocols and technology to move you
102:42 – 102:50 across this scale or location path might
102:47 – 102:52 that be somewhere along that path it’s a
102:50 – 102:56 good question I I am definitely not an
102:52 – 102:59 expert on in the ET space I can say that
102:56 – 103:00 I’ve had a couple of a couple I have had
102:59 – 103:03 a couple of subjects in the early years
103:00 – 103:06 mention it mentioned some sort of
103:03 – 103:09 involvement with ETS and their spiritual
103:06 – 103:12 development more broadly from that there
103:09 – 103:14 are plenty of people who talk about you
103:12 – 103:15 know beings and stuff like that as a
103:14 – 103:18 part there are some people who
103:15 – 103:20 transition to especially further forms
103:18 – 103:23 of fundamental well-being that like
103:20 – 103:25 later locations who have reported only
103:23 – 103:28 having those transitions occur when
103:25 – 103:31 certain when when like a some being will
103:28 – 103:33 materialize and like just like zap them
103:31 – 103:35 into some other location and then the
103:33 – 103:37 being will D materialize right now that
103:35 – 103:39 could be their brain hallucinating in
103:37 – 103:41 the middle of a shift or who knows what
103:39 – 103:44 it could be right so I think it’s a good
103:41 – 103:45 question I don’t know I’ve known I mean
103:44 – 103:47 the thing is I don’t think you have to
103:45 – 103:47 go to extraterrestrial technology for
103:47 – 103:49 that type of stuff
103:47 – 103:51 and you know you spend any time at all
103:49 – 103:53 in the brainstem space and eventually
103:51 – 103:55 you run across some of the people who
103:53 – 103:58 have worked in sort of the black
103:55 – 103:60 projects for the US government doing you
103:58 – 104:02 know non-invasive brain stimulation
103:60 – 104:04 stuff and it’s pretty clear that they
104:02 – 104:05 were that they were able to use
104:04 – 104:07 microwaves I mean the reason we use
104:05 – 104:08 ultrasound is because we’re you know
104:07 – 104:10 we’re a little concerned that if we use
104:08 – 104:13 microwaves we’re gonna get a visit you
104:10 – 104:15 know people telling us to please stop
104:13 – 104:17 that in the in the name of national
104:15 – 104:18 security or something you know I don’t
104:17 – 104:20 know but you know I mean I know
104:18 – 104:22 researchers who have been involved in
104:20 – 104:22 some of this stuff that have they’ve
104:22 – 104:24 clearly been through magnetic
104:22 – 104:27 stimulation they’ve clearly been through
104:24 – 104:30 different forms of stimulation and they
104:27 – 104:32 we had success with generating emotion
104:30 – 104:35 for instance in people or eliciting
104:32 – 104:36 orgasm even or whatever else and so I
104:35 – 104:39 don’t think you necessarily have to go
104:36 – 104:41 to ET technology yeah but it becomes a
104:39 – 104:43 chicken and the egg kind of question if
104:41 – 104:44 you get very far into it I realized that
104:43 – 104:49 so I don’t want to pull you too far
104:44 – 104:51 afield but the technology sharing I
104:49 – 104:53 actually know enough about the linear
104:51 – 104:56 development of that technology and who
104:53 – 104:59 did it at what point over decades to
104:56 – 105:02 know to be able to see that as a as a as
104:59 – 105:04 a highly experimented linear human
105:02 – 105:06 developmental path which is why I use it
105:04 – 105:08 as an example I mean you know I think
105:06 – 105:10 there were some significant missteps and
105:08 – 105:12 some horror stories and anytime you’re
105:10 – 105:14 stimulating the brain with different
105:12 – 105:16 things and you know so I’ve had some
105:14 – 105:20 interaction with with some folks like
105:16 – 105:23 that who really believe they’re just you
105:20 – 105:25 know sort of came out to us and said you
105:23 – 105:27 know listen you should take this brain
105:25 – 105:31 stuff seriously you’re on the right
105:27 – 105:33 track I can’t say anything more specific
105:31 – 105:36 than what I’m gonna tell you here today
105:33 – 105:39 you know for legal reasons but you know
105:36 – 105:41 yes you know and you know and then and
105:39 – 105:44 from those people I’ve roughly gotten a
105:41 – 105:46 chronology of what technologies were
105:44 – 105:48 experimented with when where the ideas
105:46 – 105:50 came from you know that a lot of that
105:48 – 105:52 stuff is not classified in any way and
105:50 – 105:53 so that was sort of the stuff that they
105:52 – 105:55 can help you to paint to pick a
105:53 – 105:58 directional picture around and stuff
105:55 – 105:60 like that and so so I I’d certainly I
105:58 – 106:02 mean you know it’s a massive universe
105:60 – 106:04 out there right probably not alone who
106:02 – 106:06 knows but I haven’t seen anything in
106:04 – 106:08 this space
106:06 – 106:09 I haven’t had to deal with that in any
106:08 – 106:12 way in this space from a data standpoint
106:09 – 106:14 except for a couple of subjects early on
106:12 – 106:16 in the research I do think that I do
106:14 – 106:19 think of these promises hold tremendous
106:16 – 106:20 and if I mean yeah if you’re able to if
106:19 – 106:22 there’s some being out there who is able
106:20 – 106:25 to go across galaxies in an instant
106:22 – 106:26 probably they’ve developed brain
106:25 – 106:29 computer interfaces whatever that might
106:26 – 106:32 be to their species to a level that is
106:29 – 106:36 astonishing from our perspective right
106:32 – 106:38 and that would be hugely beneficial to
106:36 – 106:39 this project I can’t what I want them to
106:38 – 106:42 show up in my living room tomorrow I
106:39 – 106:42 don’t know
106:44 – 106:49 maybe I’m happy with the slope Lottie
106:47 – 106:56 with article path investigate a very
106:49 – 106:59 location three there I might be willing
106:56 – 107:02 to sacrifice the progress for you know
106:59 – 107:05 whatever I don’t have to have done to me
107:02 – 107:08 to say this is joking around but no I I
107:05 – 107:10 get you you know our folks our guests
107:08 – 107:13 again has been dr. Jeffrey Martin you
107:10 – 107:15 can check out his website dr. Jeffrey
107:13 – 107:17 Martin calm but there’s a new book the
107:15 – 107:20 finders I introduced at the beginning
107:17 – 107:24 it’s a very important book if you’re at
107:20 – 107:26 all interested in well-being your
107:24 – 107:29 well-being the planet’s well-being
107:26 – 107:31 everyone’s well-being check it out it’s
107:29 – 107:34 been fantastic having you on Jeffrey and
107:31 – 107:37 reconnecting anything we left out or
107:34 – 107:39 anyplace else that people need to go to
107:37 – 107:42 connect with this you know I think there
107:39 – 107:43 is one place I mean of course there’s
107:42 – 107:45 the normal web sites and stuff which I’m
107:43 – 107:47 sure you stick up on your page but there
107:45 – 107:50 is one thing at least it’s alive at the
107:47 – 107:52 time of this interview and it’s at
107:50 – 107:55 something called explorers course calm
107:52 – 107:57 which is our follow-on project what
107:55 – 107:59 we’ve done is we’ve put up a series of
107:57 – 108:01 videos that we think are important for
107:59 – 108:03 anyone to know about their psychology
108:01 – 108:06 for those who have transitioned to
108:03 – 108:08 fundamental well-being already you know
108:06 – 108:10 oftentimes when someone has transitioned
108:08 – 108:12 to fundamental well-being it’s and it’s
108:10 – 108:14 often in isolation they’re generally not
108:12 – 108:15 in a community as a result of that they
108:14 – 108:17 think that they’re like the only one who
108:15 – 108:20 has experienced certain things or they
108:17 – 108:22 wonder about what’s going to unfold next
108:20 – 108:25 or and the reality is that there’s very
108:22 – 108:28 reliable cycles it’s very useful to know
108:25 – 108:29 about them and you know there’s the sort
108:28 – 108:31 of trade-offs that they’re making in
108:29 – 108:32 their own life the difficulties that
108:31 – 108:34 they’re experiencing with integrating
108:32 – 108:37 and pn SE and fundamental well-being in
108:34 – 108:38 their own life these are things that
108:37 – 108:41 have been experienced by millions of
108:38 – 108:43 people and we’ve got data collected on
108:41 – 108:46 them from thousands of people and so
108:43 – 108:48 we’ve really tried to sort of put the
108:46 – 108:50 most important thing out there and it’s
108:48 – 108:52 just you know it’s just free basically
108:50 – 108:54 you just can go to explore scarce calm
108:52 – 108:56 and you can get that free
108:54 – 108:57 basically it’s the first module of the
108:56 – 108:59 actual explorers course which is another
108:57 – 109:01 experiment that isn’t free but that
108:59 – 109:04 first module contains so much of the
109:01 – 109:06 important core situational you know help
109:04 – 109:08 you understand your life sort of stuff
109:06 – 109:10 that everybody everybody that took that
109:08 – 109:12 course was like you know you should just
109:10 – 109:13 make this available this has to be
109:12 – 109:15 available to people if I would have had
109:13 – 109:16 this years ago my life would have been
109:15 – 109:18 so totally different and so I was
109:16 – 109:19 thought why not so we just basically put
109:18 – 109:21 it up there you can’t even actually
109:19 – 109:23 order at this moment maybe we should
109:21 – 109:24 change that but you can’t even order the
109:23 – 109:25 real explorers course or get to the
109:24 – 109:27 great explorers quartz or anything or
109:25 – 109:29 that website which is kind of funny it’s
109:27 – 109:33 literally just that content we just want
109:29 – 109:35 really as many finders as many people
109:33 – 109:37 who experience fundamental well-being as
109:35 – 109:39 possible to really find that so they can
109:37 – 109:41 understand you know how what’s going on
109:39 – 109:44 with them and sort of how best to think
109:41 – 109:47 about integrating it in with modern life
109:44 – 109:48 because what’s strange about this is
109:47 – 109:51 that there’s just not much on it people
109:48 – 109:52 often find audio shanties book the end
109:51 – 109:54 of your world and like cling to it like
109:52 – 109:56 a Bible you know like it’s the one thing
109:54 – 109:58 that they found that speaks to them in
109:56 – 110:00 some way and of course they can read all
109:58 – 110:02 of the seeker spiritual stuff right and
110:00 – 110:05 they’re reading it from a completely new
110:02 – 110:06 lens and understanding it and a much
110:05 – 110:07 more deeper and meaningful level but
110:06 – 110:10 that’s not telling them how to integrate
110:07 – 110:11 stuff with their life it’s just you know
110:10 – 110:13 giving them a little bit of validation
110:11 – 110:14 that they’ve probably reached a certain
110:13 – 110:16 place that these other people that wrote
110:14 – 110:18 the book or something had reached and
110:16 – 110:20 understood I do think that’s actually
110:18 – 110:22 one thing that we have out there that we
110:20 – 110:25 didn’t really talk about but that is
110:22 – 110:26 incredibly incredibly important it’s one
110:25 – 110:27 I think maybe that’s one of the most
110:26 – 110:29 important things that we’ve ever made
110:27 – 110:30 available great great stuff you know
110:29 – 110:33 I’ve stumbled across that just in the
110:30 – 110:35 near-death experience science everyone
110:33 – 110:36 ten years ago was all excited and this
110:35 – 110:38 and that and there were a couple of
110:36 – 110:41 brave people who stood up and said same
110:38 – 110:43 kind of thing hey guys there’s a huge
110:41 – 110:45 integration problem here there’s a huge
110:43 – 110:49 divorce rate increase there’s a huge
110:45 – 110:51 depression kind of thing going on so
110:49 – 110:53 yeah I think you’re you’re onto
110:51 – 110:55 something and it’s awesome that you’re
110:53 – 110:57 addressing it well thanks so much you
110:55 – 110:59 know I love hanging out and talking with
110:57 – 111:00 you we’ve I don’t know if had a
110:59 – 111:03 conversation on camera I suppose is
111:00 – 111:03 off-camera
111:05 – 111:10 this is always a lot of fun yeah it’s
111:08 – 111:11 super fun for me and I really do
111:10 – 111:14 appreciate it hopefully I make it up
111:11 – 111:15 there sometime and I’d love to see the
111:14 – 111:18 place that you are you should totally
111:15 – 111:20 come you should totally come and try out
111:18 – 111:21 our latest technology deal deal deal
111:20 – 111:24 deal
111:21 – 111:29 Jeffrey take care I’ll give you a heads
111:24 – 111:29 up when this comes out all right thanks
tary transport and so on 53:08 – 53:16 those things can only work because the 53:11 – 53:17 universe is magical is you know I’m 53:16 – 53:18 using that term but you know what I mean 53:17 – 53:21 like we live in any animate whether it’s 53:18 – 53:23 consciousness universe so yes and no 53:21 – 53:24 what I would say back and I know this 53:23 – 53:26 has happened to you as well but in 53:24 – 53:28 certainly happen to me having on my 53:26 – 53:30 travels to various like you know sacred 53:28 – 53:33 sites and weird places and being amongst 53:30 – 53:36 like tribal fetish objects and all this 53:33 – 53:39 kind of stuff is that a rock can do that 53:36 – 53:41 if you go to say Marie Laveau’s to in 53:39 – 53:42 New Orleans as you walk up to it your 53:41 – 53:45 blood pressure drops and it’s a tomb 53:42 – 53:48 it’s just it’s from that level of 53:45 – 53:50 reality that the technology can be built 53:48 – 53:52 and who’s to say it has it remember 53:50 – 53:55 you’ve had guests on that can astral 53:52 – 53:59 travel like so who’s to say it hasn’t I 53:55 – 54:02 agree with you that you just end up with 53:59 – 54:04 this kind of infinite or vanishing point 54:02 – 54:06 where we might do it on a mechanistic 54:04 – 54:08 basis or we might do it on an animistic 54:06 – 54:11 basis but you’ll still end up at this 54:08 – 54:14 point the realization that you are in an 54:11 – 54:18 animate magic all consciousness universe 54:14 – 54:20 whatever will will occur and that’s kind 54:18 – 54:21 of where I’m like I’m not sure are you 54:20 – 54:24 yeah 54:21 – 54:27 and are there entities in the galaxy 54:24 – 54:30 that have consciousness ray guns for 54:27 – 54:33 whatever I don’t know you know an 54:30 – 54:35 example do they have do they have red 54:33 – 54:38 iPhone that calls the devil at it like 54:35 – 54:41 yeah probably because you know the the 54:38 – 54:42 UFO contact experience especially when 54:41 – 54:44 you get to things like screen memory and 54:42 – 54:46 so on is a little alarming it’s it’s 54:44 – 54:49 there’s no other question you know I 54:46 – 54:52 think that’s worth thinking with you 54:49 – 54:53 know I could hammer on this on and on 54:52 – 54:55 that you’ve brought up so many great 54:53 – 54:57 points I just think we’re gonna lose 54:55 – 54:59 ourselves and the complexity of it but 54:57 – 55:03 awesome kind of discussion let’s bring 54:59 – 55:05 it back to dr. demian yeah maybe more of 55:03 – 55:07 a down-to-earth kind of discussion that 55:05 – 55:09 you and I have had offline and we’ll 55:07 – 55:13 share as much as you feel comfortable 55:09 – 55:15 with kind of online here but we both 55:13 – 55:17 interviewed dr. Dean Radin you did an 55:15 – 55:20 excellent interview with and then I kind 55:17 – 55:22 of was a little bit meaner to him but 55:20 – 55:24 still I appreciate it very much 55:22 – 55:26 and coming on and if I was mean to him 55:24 – 55:29 if I’m saying I was mean to him it’s 55:26 – 55:32 because the vanishing point that you’re 55:29 – 55:35 talking about I think has to be on the 55:32 – 55:38 forefront of our mind as we walk down 55:35 – 55:40 this this path the vanishing point being 55:38 – 55:44 that we’re going to reach hyperspace 55:40 – 55:47 when we realized that the shaman is no 55:44 – 55:50 different than the et in terms of their 55:47 – 55:52 ability to manipulate the extended 55:50 – 55:56 consciousness realm because it all 55:52 – 55:60 reaches some higher dimension that then 55:56 – 56:02 totally escapes what we can is beyond 55:60 – 56:04 our understanding and that’s where the 56:02 – 56:08 action probably really begins and I just 56:04 – 56:11 wonder as awesome as Dean is and as 56:08 – 56:14 important as his work is can he really 56:11 – 56:15 catch up to there given you know when 56:14 – 56:18 you talk to Dean he says you know to be 56:15 – 56:20 honest with you and I so appreciate his 56:18 – 56:23 honesty is I didn’t even think of the 56:20 – 56:26 term spirit seriously until a year ago 56:23 – 56:30 and if he is on the Vanguard and for 56:26 – 56:32 God’s sakes he is on the Vanguard but if 56:30 – 56:35 he is on the if he is on the edge of 56:32 – 56:38 this does science really has science in 56:35 – 56:41 this sense have a chance of catching up 56:38 – 56:43 um this is where maybe I would swap that 56:41 – 56:45 out again to just be a bit more precise 56:43 – 56:47 and say empiricism and I think Dean has 56:45 – 56:50 got this right like empiricism is 56:47 – 56:53 fascinating because my definition of it 56:50 – 56:55 and it’s a good one philosophically is 56:53 – 56:58 that empiricism is the notion that 56:55 – 57:00 nothing exists outside of sense data and 56:58 – 57:02 and scientific results are a subset of 57:00 – 57:04 sense data because you perceive the 57:02 – 57:09 results right and it invalidates itself 57:04 – 57:10 as a as a full explanation for the 57:09 – 57:13 universe because the statement that 57:10 – 57:15 nothing exists beyond sense data is a 57:13 – 57:17 statement you make without the sense 57:15 – 57:18 data to support it you are making a 57:17 – 57:21 statement about the universe that 57:18 – 57:23 nothing exists that I can’t perceive now 57:21 – 57:26 that but once you realize that 57:23 – 57:28 empiricism becomes exceptionally useful 57:26 – 57:30 because you’ve made it the right size 57:28 – 57:32 and this is how we can do things like 57:30 – 57:36 archeology and whatever and I think Dean 57:32 – 57:40 is absolutely nailed it by the in 57:36 – 57:45 last book by taking the empirical 57:40 – 57:47 exploration of magic and hanumant 57:45 – 57:52 universe the reality of say whatever you 57:47 – 57:55 want to as far as it can and I think he 57:52 – 57:57 was really good with us both at holding 57:55 – 57:59 the line I think he’s like this is 57:57 – 58:01 literally all we can get here but this 57:59 – 58:03 is all that this can show us that 58:01 – 58:06 doesn’t mean that’s all is there in the 58:03 – 58:08 world so I really like the Dean and 58:06 – 58:10 maybe it’s his kind of cosmic function 58:08 – 58:12 in the world I really like the Dean 58:10 – 58:14 holds that light because like I asked if 58:12 – 58:17 it’s true it’s true for especially this 58:14 – 58:20 is real skeptical stuff right like it’s 58:17 – 58:22 true that the data cannot I mean to our 58:20 – 58:25 satisfaction sure can i definitively 58:22 – 58:27 land on the existence of an afterlife or 58:25 – 58:30 spirits or anything that stuff because 58:27 – 58:32 you can’t perceive it because it this is 58:30 – 58:33 how big empiricism is it’s one circle 58:32 – 58:36 and this stuff is outside of it and 58:33 – 58:39 whilst we all agree like the data uproot 58:36 – 58:42 like it’s just that we can’t use this 58:39 – 58:44 one technique to conclusively land on it 58:42 – 58:45 doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist it means 58:44 – 58:47 like it in fact it’s a really good 58:45 – 58:49 argument like empiricism is completely 58:47 – 58:51 filled up with like this this stuff is 58:49 – 58:54 real but we need other techniques we 58:51 – 58:56 need other epistemology is hence why I’m 58:54 – 58:59 interested in that rather than ontology 58:56 – 59:01 to be able to go ok well then where do 58:59 – 59:04 we what other means of truth validation 59:01 – 59:07 exists for us outside of empiricism and 59:04 – 59:09 so I loved both those interviews and 59:07 – 59:12 he’s to be congratulated because we all 59:09 – 59:14 agree like it’s it’s a pretty good case 59:12 – 59:16 that you know the spirit world exists 59:14 – 59:20 and life continues after death but you 59:16 – 59:22 cannot get to it with an empirical model 59:20 – 59:24 conclusively you can get to something is 59:22 – 59:26 going on and it was so good of him to 59:24 – 59:29 kind of go no I will not be drawn 59:26 – 59:31 outside of it and I’m really happy he 59:29 – 59:35 held that line and it leaves us to kind 59:31 – 59:39 of blur though in the way which is where 59:35 – 59:43 we belong we want you on that wall we 59:39 – 59:46 need you on that wall but it’s like it’s 59:43 – 59:48 I mean it’s so good he’s just got such 59:46 – 59:49 the mind and the experience to go like I 59:48 – 59:51 can’t you 59:49 – 59:54 cannot design an experiment to 59:51 – 59:59 objectively demonstrate empirically you 59:54 – 60:03 can’t design with you I’m with you and 59:59 – 60:07 I’m totally 100% supportive of Abdeen I 60:03 – 60:09 love what you said about the magical 60:07 – 60:12 shrinking machine and that is the most 60:09 – 60:15 beautiful metaphor that I’ve heard my 60:12 – 60:16 problem is when I really step back and 60:15 – 60:21 want to be honest and not be so nice is 60:16 – 60:25 that you’ve now shrunk it down to where 60:21 – 60:28 it isn’t that meaningful or important 60:25 – 60:31 science has now obsoleted itself in 60:28 – 60:33 terms of a larger investigation of who 60:31 – 60:35 are we why are we here and you’ve just 60:33 – 60:39 relegated it to us a part of it 60:35 – 60:42 it can help but the shrinking machine 60:39 – 60:45 you know can be a problem and it’s very 60:42 – 60:47 specific about empiricism so empiricism 60:45 – 60:50 isn’t science these are two different 60:47 – 60:54 things science relies on empiricism 60:50 – 60:58 currently exclusively in which as a way 60:54 – 61:01 to as its exclusive epistemology it 60:58 – 61:04 relies on empiricism it doesn’t need to 61:01 – 61:08 and and this is something that Western 61:04 – 61:09 philosophy which is hidden mists but one 61:08 – 61:10 of the things and comes back to what 61:09 – 61:12 we’re talking about there are other 61:10 – 61:13 forms of proof that we have had 61:12 – 61:15 available to us for twenty five hundred 61:13 – 61:17 years we’ve had mathematical proofs 61:15 – 61:20 we’ve had logical proofs we have had for 61:17 – 61:22 whatever they’re worth hold on hold on I 61:20 – 61:25 mean if Dean has helped us make any 61:22 – 61:28 change at all it’s that the shade 61:25 – 61:31 casting that’s been done on empiricism 61:28 – 61:34 is now flipped and what we can say now 61:31 – 61:35 is empiricism really is the only game in 61:34 – 61:38 town because all those other things 61:35 – 61:40 you’re talking about aren’t real we 61:38 – 61:43 can’t really measure things 61:40 – 61:46 no but that’s really we can’t really do 61:43 – 61:48 mathematics we really can’t because it’s 61:46 – 61:50 all an abstraction of something that we 61:48 – 61:53 don’t know what it really is the only 61:50 – 61:56 game so town is in Paris the only game 61:53 – 61:58 is it’s not you’re using empiricism 61:56 – 62:01 which is an epistemology as an ontology 61:58 – 62:02 again and that’s the error so there is 62:01 – 62:04 nothing and this 62:02 – 62:08 the kind of realization that happens 62:04 – 62:10 across disciplines nothing stops there 62:08 – 62:13 is nothing that can prevent you from 62:10 – 62:16 doing that baseline philosophical work 62:13 – 62:19 of what is reality empiricism is the 62:16 – 62:21 next level down and I don’t think it 62:19 – 62:24 makes it I don’t think it diminishes it 62:21 – 62:26 I think it restores it and makes it 62:24 – 62:28 useful again so that it’s not designed 62:26 – 62:30 to be an ontology it’s designed to be an 62:28 – 62:33 epistemology and we keep using it as an 62:30 – 62:35 ontology and if you if you just let it 62:33 – 62:37 be what it is again yes you have to do 62:35 – 62:40 the hard work of going like well that’s 62:37 – 62:42 one method of truth validation but 62:40 – 62:44 nevertheless Here I am as an organism or 62:42 – 62:46 consciousness or whatever in a universe 62:44 – 62:47 that has that capacity what can I learn 62:46 – 62:49 about and this is the Western 62:47 – 62:52 philosophical journey it’s the eastern 62:49 – 62:54 one – in many respects is you nothing 62:52 – 62:57 can stop you there is no like oh look 62:54 – 63:02 done and I have empirically generated 62:57 – 63:04 data that solves a crucial thing that 63:02 – 63:07 every human has to do which is those 63:04 – 63:10 foundational philosophical principles or 63:07 – 63:12 work nothing prevents that and 63:10 – 63:15 empiricism turning it back into an 63:12 – 63:18 epistemology is tremendously useful on 63:15 – 63:19 that personal quest to do so so I don’t 63:18 – 63:22 think I think it’s the opposite I think 63:19 – 63:24 it’s made it better rather than worse to 63:22 – 63:28 make it to just let it be what it was 63:24 – 63:30 initially yeah maybe I’ll move on and 63:28 – 63:32 let it go and the next time we talk I’ll 63:30 – 63:35 I’ll ask you to finish that thought 63:32 – 63:39 about what ontology x’ what maps of the 63:35 – 63:41 territory are really something that we 63:39 – 63:43 can that we can put up on the wall and 63:41 – 63:45 be proud of because I don’t think I 63:43 – 63:47 don’t think they exist but but I don’t 63:45 – 63:49 think any of those other alternative 63:47 – 63:55 ontology is really kind of get a say but 63:49 – 63:59 I shut up and move on so here’s a fun 63:55 – 64:02 one another chance to poke the bear or 63:59 – 64:04 poke the guest as it is in this case but 64:02 – 64:07 I think the data versus interpretation 64:04 – 64:10 thing with regard to social engineering 64:07 – 64:13 what some people call conspiracy which 64:10 – 64:15 is if there ever was a social 64:13 – 64:16 engineering of a term it’s the social 64:15 – 64:19 engineering of 64:16 – 64:22 conspiracy that’s conspiracy as opposed 64:19 – 64:24 to what it really is is 90 percent of 64:22 – 64:26 the time a social engineering project by 64:24 – 64:29 someone by a government either our 64:26 – 64:31 government or a foreign government or a 64:29 – 64:34 corporation or a shadow government or 64:31 – 64:36 somebody I think there’s this data 64:34 – 64:39 versus interpretation thing going on 64:36 – 64:41 people get tired of me talking about the 64:39 – 64:43 Gloria Steinem example but I love it 64:41 – 64:45 because still a lot of people it’s 64:43 – 64:48 something we can touch and we can go and 64:45 – 64:49 actually put our finger on it’s one of 64:48 – 64:52 the few times that one of the players 64:49 – 64:54 actually stands out is stupid enough to 64:52 – 64:57 stand outside and go well yeah I really 64:54 – 65:00 was a player in a social engineering 64:57 – 65:04 project and then we find out that she 65:00 – 65:09 not only was but still is so here’s my 65:04 – 65:15 poke at you to what extent is the 65:09 – 65:19 current kind of neoliberal quasi proto 65:15 – 65:21 pseudo progressive divide a social 65:19 – 65:24 engineering project because it sure as 65:21 – 65:27 hell looks like one to me it looks like 65:24 – 65:29 another version I mean it took me seven 65:27 – 65:31 or eight years into skeptiko to realize 65:29 – 65:34 that biological robot in a meaningless 65:31 – 65:37 universe is not just a bunch of dumb 65:34 – 65:42 guys who haven’t figured out an obvious 65:37 – 65:44 kind of observation it is somehow social 65:42 – 65:46 engineering useful idiot you know isn’t 65:44 – 65:48 it better if we send things down this 65:46 – 65:51 path kind of thing and I always like the 65:48 – 65:54 example you give of well look at the 65:51 – 65:57 frontier science done in the darkest 65:54 – 65:60 corners of those agencies that were way 65:57 – 66:02 past the materialistic model yeah a long 65:60 – 66:05 time ago and I wonder if the same thing 66:02 – 66:09 isn’t going on here so when we see these 66:05 – 66:13 social movements it just to me smacks of 66:09 – 66:17 social engineering what thank you Gordon 66:13 – 66:19 I think some of it yes I think a lot of 66:17 – 66:23 it is inertia so I think we are still in 66:19 – 66:26 the after-effects of either successful 66:23 – 66:29 or abandoned 20th century technocratic 66:26 – 66:33 engineering ones so if you look at FEM 66:29 – 66:36 and I I don’t know quite what Steinem 66:33 – 66:39 was for for the CIA 66:36 – 66:42 other than surveillance but I rather 66:39 – 66:43 suspect it has to do I think they are 66:42 – 66:47 interested in whether feminism could be 66:43 – 66:49 used to reduce population I think I 66:47 – 66:50 think that might have been it because if 66:49 – 66:52 you look at the kind of 20th century 66:50 – 66:55 technocratic project one of the things 66:52 – 66:58 they were concerned about and it’s it’s 66:55 – 66:59 always the case I saw it like a lot of 66:58 – 67:01 things are concerned about is 66:59 – 67:05 overpopulation so I’m not but here we 67:01 – 67:08 are in a in the inertia of a whole bunch 67:05 – 67:12 of different ups and projects from 67:08 – 67:14 Russian meddling to feminism to to all 67:12 – 67:16 the rest of it and we’re kind of in this 67:14 – 67:17 car crash inevitable conclusion of what 67:16 – 67:19 happens because there was so much 67:17 – 67:21 inertia behind them even if they’re not 67:19 – 67:23 running now we’re still caught in the 67:21 – 67:25 tumble of it they’re also as far as I 67:23 – 67:29 can tell looking the world in the last 67:25 – 67:32 few years there are more people private 67:29 – 67:35 entities billionaires whatever you want 67:32 – 67:37 playing a game that used to pretty much 67:35 – 67:38 have one player at least in the West 67:37 – 67:40 like during the Cold War we had one 67:38 – 67:42 player and whether it was because the 67:40 – 67:45 anglo-american alliance whatever you 67:42 – 67:47 want to call it and had the CIA and all 67:45 – 67:49 the rest of it well more or less aligned 67:47 – 67:51 in what they wanted to achieve for the 67:49 – 67:55 West in the 20th century or not if you 67:51 – 67:58 look at it now what isn’t enough so I 67:55 – 68:03 think it’s really we’re in a kind of car 67:58 – 68:05 crash of current ups and the inertia of 68:03 – 68:08 historic ones and I think that’s just 68:05 – 68:10 where we are and it’s a mess you know 68:08 – 68:15 one thing I’d kind of throw out there is 68:10 – 68:18 an explanation of these ops number one I 68:15 – 68:20 always fall back on the reactive versus 68:18 – 68:23 proactive thing which is I think the 68:20 – 68:26 first agenda is hey we have to have a 68:23 – 68:29 foot in the door we have to have a stake 68:26 – 68:33 in that game so yeah you go and you 68:29 – 68:35 co-opt or disrupt or infiltrate feminism 68:33 – 68:37 if for no other reason then we’ll figure 68:35 – 68:38 out what the fuck to do with it later 68:37 – 68:41 let’s just make sure we have 68:38 – 68:43 we can play in that game and that’s the 68:41 – 68:43 British Empire model that’s absolutely 68:43 – 68:45 it 68:43 – 68:49 yeah yeah and I think that’s that’s 68:45 – 68:52 smart but I think if we were gonna if I 68:49 – 68:55 was going to venture a guess on what the 68:52 – 68:59 goal is I think the first goal always 68:55 – 69:01 since constantine has been control sure 68:59 – 69:06 because that’s our job is is to control 69:01 – 69:09 and if we can pacify disrupt in in this 69:06 – 69:12 case when you look at feminism if we can 69:09 – 69:15 atomized the family if we can isolate 69:12 – 69:18 make people more alone afraid less 69:15 – 69:21 connected then we’re always better off 69:18 – 69:23 in terms of from a control standpoint 69:21 – 69:27 yeah it’s easier to control the sheep in 69:23 – 69:29 that way than it is in any other way and 69:27 – 69:31 that’s my concern with like when I look 69:29 – 69:33 at like I have up there the first 69:31 – 69:35 transgender Muslim kind of thing because 69:33 – 69:38 some of these things are actually 69:35 – 69:40 bordering on the kind of comical and 69:38 – 69:45 it’s the same thing in my opinion is 69:40 – 69:49 like is there an issue in terms of 69:45 – 69:51 sexuality in terms of absolutely is 69:49 – 69:55 there an issue in terms of 69:51 – 69:57 transgenderism and and rights and 69:55 – 69:59 certain discretion certainly 69:57 – 70:02 discrimination that’s obvious 69:59 – 70:06 absolutely is there an agenda that keeps 70:02 – 70:08 cropping up in terms of trans now finish 70:06 – 70:12 that with whatever you want 70:08 – 70:16 you know transhumanism trans culture ISM 70:12 – 70:20 trans-atlantic globalization I mean I 70:16 – 70:23 think there’s a lot of things at play 70:20 – 70:25 there in terms of an agenda that seems 70:23 – 70:27 to be playing out in a bunch of 70:25 – 70:30 different ways in this same way of 70:27 – 70:33 atomizing separating and ultimately 70:30 – 70:37 turning people into being more alone 70:33 – 70:39 afraid less connected and less spiritual 70:37 – 70:42 in whatever way we want to kind of 70:39 – 70:43 define that what do you think well well 70:42 – 70:44 that’s kind of why I use the word 70:43 – 70:46 technocracy because I’ll work backwards 70:44 – 70:48 because what you just said there is it’s 70:46 – 70:50 true although I don’t focus here’s the 70:48 – 70:51 thing the 20th century technocratic 70:50 – 70:54 project and you include all the P 70:51 – 70:57 like béarnaise that are that a part of 70:54 – 70:59 all of the 20th century development of 70:57 – 71:02 these capacities right so the 70:59 – 71:06 technocracy thought it fell to these 71:02 – 71:09 rich people to manage the development of 71:06 – 71:11 the world and the West for our benefit 71:09 – 71:13 right so it isn’t even just necessarily 71:11 – 71:15 keeping them alone and afraid that is a 71:13 – 71:18 side effect of well we are the 71:15 – 71:21 technocratic running the world so our 71:18 – 71:23 our competing narratives are here in the 71:21 – 71:24 church and here in the family and so on 71:23 – 71:25 and what we actually want because we’re 71:24 – 71:27 all the doctors 71:25 – 71:29 where are the educators where all are 71:27 – 71:30 this kind of stuff you need to get it 71:29 – 71:33 from us and we will manage the society 71:30 – 71:35 and you will eat the right food and the 71:33 – 71:37 population will grow or not at the rate 71:35 – 71:39 that we determine the economy will work 71:37 – 71:41 where this is this is how this is the 71:39 – 71:43 the demonic goal so it’s funny it’s 71:41 – 71:46 where I wanted to start there on a human 71:43 – 71:48 level that’s the kind of 20th century 71:46 – 71:50 idea I think they’re shooting for it is 71:48 – 71:51 demonic like if you want to go to a 71:50 – 71:53 higher level when you’re talking about 71:51 – 71:55 what are the kind of metaphysical 71:53 – 71:56 implications I have no idea if any of 71:55 – 71:59 these people realize they are being 71:56 – 72:01 ridden by demons but nevertheless the 71:59 – 72:04 goal of this kind of project is it is in 72:01 – 72:06 some literal sense atactic when it comes 72:04 – 72:08 back to what I was saying before about a 72:06 – 72:10 car crash of different real and fake 72:08 – 72:12 things and an existing and historic 72:10 – 72:14 agendas and so on 72:12 – 72:15 it’s a pity that the word trans is used 72:14 – 72:18 returns humanism and something like 72:15 – 72:21 trans rights because and trans-fats like 72:18 – 72:23 it’s actually like it’s and so we had 72:21 – 72:25 this listing where things get conflated 72:23 – 72:30 together and transhumanism 72:25 – 72:30 is like up and down a technocratic plot 72:30 – 72:36 trans experiences and and kind of new 72:34 – 72:38 explore a explorations of gender and 72:36 – 72:40 gender expression and however they are 72:38 – 72:42 regularly weaponized and they’re 72:40 – 72:44 weaponized for intentional reasons and 72:42 – 72:45 also because missus because Connor comes 72:44 – 72:47 on the show a lot of kind of happy 72:45 – 72:49 because of my show we talked about this 72:47 – 72:52 which is you typically find and 72:49 – 72:55 obviously you typically find the 72:52 – 72:57 promotion of or the the defense of trans 72:55 – 72:60 rights and trans visibility on the 72:57 – 73:02 progressive end of the spectrum like 72:60 – 73:04 obviously that is also you guys have 73:02 – 73:06 when you go it encapsulates I think 73:04 – 73:07 where you’re going what’s like how come 73:06 – 73:13 trans people aren’t allowed in the 73:07 – 73:15 military and you’re like yeah it’s great 73:13 – 73:17 just ban the rest of them now they but 73:15 – 73:20 mostly it’s because on the left where 73:17 – 73:23 you find and were you historically and 73:20 – 73:25 typically and rightly I guess finally 73:23 – 73:27 this promotion of the wrong word because 73:25 – 73:28 it sounds like an agenda but let’s just 73:27 – 73:31 say the defense and the prioritization 73:28 – 73:32 of things a trans rights you also get a 73:31 – 73:35 kind of idiotic 73:32 – 73:37 left materialism you you get the kind of 73:35 – 73:40 Marxist reduction of everything back 73:37 – 73:43 into a materialist labor interaction 73:40 – 73:45 based on his you know observations of a 73:43 – 73:47 19th century industrial economy so you 73:45 – 73:50 have a definite weaponization of 73:47 – 73:51 different manifestations of this you 73:50 – 73:54 have the part of it which is good which 73:51 – 73:55 is you know people should be able to 73:54 – 73:57 fucking move how they want to live and 73:55 – 73:60 you also have the people who are trying 73:57 – 74:02 to help as far as I’m concerned aren’t 73:60 – 74:04 helping in the right way because you see 74:02 – 74:06 argument goes round and around on a 74:04 – 74:08 materialist basis because from a 74:06 – 74:11 progressive perspective 74:08 – 74:13 magic for whenever a better word is is 74:11 – 74:17 dirty it’s it’s dirty their Marxist 74:13 – 74:22 don’t like it the 20th century for us 74:17 – 74:23 was they rely on don’t like it you can I 74:22 – 74:26 substitute spurge you say magic I 74:23 – 74:29 substitute spirituality saying if you 74:26 – 74:31 come at it from an atheistic perspective 74:29 – 74:35 it’s all gobbly good within about two 74:31 – 74:37 sentences and unfortunately the the less 74:35 – 74:40 the left the progressive the neoliberal 74:37 – 74:43 has married themselves to just a 74:40 – 74:46 philosophical kind of non-starter nitwit 74:43 – 74:50 again biological robot kind of thing I 74:46 – 74:51 never said yeah and I thought do you 74:50 – 74:55 have any thoughts on that third picture 74:51 – 74:58 down there I’ve just so many odds alone 74:55 – 75:02 too long and your buddy Peter Levin de 74:58 – 75:07 oh my god to me to me this is the most 75:02 – 75:10 clear example of a political role out 75:07 – 75:13 disclosure kind of thing that that is 75:10 – 75:15 masked by again all this bullshit of 75:13 – 75:16 people talking about well did he did 75:15 – 75:20 they did they should they would they 75:16 – 75:23 it’s a complete political disclosure 75:20 – 75:26 rollout let’s look at it as an operation 75:23 – 75:28 and stop looking at it as a true 75:26 – 75:30 disclosure I mean it there was dissin 75:28 – 75:33 information was disclosed but again it’s 75:30 – 75:34 your term weaponized you know what do 75:33 – 75:36 you think a table what do you think 75:34 – 75:37 computer living my Peter Levin to quote 75:36 – 75:39 that I do have to get you to respond to 75:37 – 75:41 the one that just had me pounding on the 75:39 – 75:42 table I was like I gotta push this back 75:41 – 75:44 on Gordon because Gordon like theater 75:42 – 75:48 his freaks retelling of the story is 75:44 – 75:50 well and then Tom DeLonge called me and 75:48 – 75:51 of course I hung up because I didn’t 75:50 – 75:54 believe was times long and he calls me 75:51 – 75:55 back he said it really is and then we 75:54 – 75:57 talked for a long time we go gosh we 75:55 – 75:59 really got to crack this thing there’s 75:57 – 76:01 so much misinformation disinformation 75:59 – 76:03 out there we got to get to the bottom of 76:01 – 76:06 that and we decided well the only way to 76:03 – 76:13 do that was to go to the military so 76:06 – 76:16 that’s what we did . oh really that was 76:13 – 76:18 the only way to get to the bottom of it 76:16 – 76:21 i mean that isn’t even a well-crafted 76:18 – 76:23 story I was like embarrassed that you 76:21 – 76:28 even try and spin that out there to me 76:23 – 76:28 alright I’ve gone too far 76:28 – 76:33 tell me tell me what you think in 76:29 – 76:36 general about the political SIOP 76:33 – 76:38 disclosure that was it was always gonna 76:36 – 76:41 be I won I think it’s an abandoned one 76:38 – 76:43 we’ve had this discussion before I think 76:41 – 76:45 this stuff is to coincide with the movie 76:43 – 76:49 arrival and a Hillary Clinton presidency 76:45 – 76:51 no idea which happened and they it’s 76:49 – 76:53 it’s like a movie right we have it in 76:51 – 76:56 the can with all the money I’ve got it 76:53 – 76:58 because this if you look at what and you 76:56 – 76:59 you’ll be an agreement in most of your 76:58 – 77:01 guests when you talk about this stuff 76:59 – 77:05 will as well if you look at the majority 77:01 – 77:09 of the the kind of classic era UFO cases 77:05 – 77:12 they are patently us cold war propaganda 77:09 – 77:14 covering secret military projects and 77:12 – 77:15 and and trying to kind of like influence 77:14 – 77:16 the Soviets and since it’s like well 77:15 – 77:18 maybe they do have a flying saucer like 77:16 – 77:21 there’s a lot of a lot of stuff in the 77:18 – 77:25 kind of classic cases is that now all of 77:21 – 77:28 a sudden we have yet another kind of op 77:25 – 77:30 of like oh well maybe we have these 77:28 – 77:32 these flying saucers and these these 77:30 – 77:34 special ray guns and and we got this 77:32 – 77:35 from aliens and it’s it’s important that 77:34 – 77:38 the American people know that this is 77:35 – 77:39 here and that was to coincide with what 77:38 – 77:43 you’re still getting two-thirds of 77:39 – 77:45 Washington trying to want which is a a 77:43 – 77:47 conflict with Russia and a military 77:45 – 77:50 dominance of Eurasia so I think this is 77:47 – 77:53 literally a a semi abandoned or let’s 77:50 – 77:55 see how this goes more air cover for the 77:53 – 77:57 kind of things that we’re going on in 77:55 – 77:59 the Cold War cause really new Cold War I 77:57 – 78:01 think it’s meant I think it’s weird I we 77:59 – 78:03 talked about I honestly think he’s been 78:01 – 78:04 mind-controlled several times and I 78:03 – 78:07 don’t know if you’ve heard him on some 78:04 – 78:09 of the earlier interviews where he’s 78:07 – 78:11 they’re calling people from the car and 78:09 – 78:12 or he’s like meeting people at the front 78:11 – 78:14 of the Pentagon in the middle of the 78:12 – 78:18 night and my my good dude he would being 78:14 – 78:21 mind-controlled so I just in adds a mess 78:18 – 78:23 I just interviewed Kevin day who is a 78:21 – 78:27 super interesting guy 78:23 – 78:30 so Kevin day is the the top gun 78:27 – 78:33 intercept Orchestrator of all those 78:30 – 78:36 planes that are on the tic-tac video 78:33 – 78:39 that gets released mm-hmm I can’t go 78:36 – 78:43 through the whole interview but the guy 78:39 – 78:49 certainly seems legit 1,000% legit and 78:43 – 78:51 the the PTSD valet Davis effect which I 78:49 – 78:56 wasn’t familiar with do you know the 78:51 – 78:57 ballet Davis so valet Davis effect are 78:56 – 79:01 they went ahead 78:57 – 79:04 they Jacques valet and I forget dr. 79:01 – 79:07 Davis’s thing but they did a purity of 79:04 – 79:11 published analysis of the after effects 79:07 – 79:15 of contact related experiences and this 79:11 – 79:18 guy says all of them check every box 79:15 – 79:21 meanwhile he’s going to VA clinics and 79:18 – 79:24 they’re going oh complex PTSD and he’s 79:21 – 79:26 like yeah kind of but not really and 79:24 – 79:27 then he stumbles across eight years 79:26 – 79:28 later because it’s all happened a long 79:27 – 79:31 time ago 79:28 – 79:34 he stumbles across ballet Davis and he 79:31 – 79:38 goes bingo exactly and he traces it back 79:34 – 79:40 to when he actually went up on board 79:38 – 79:41 ship and actually took the glasses out 79:40 – 79:45 and 79:41 – 79:49 look at these visitors and had an 79:45 – 79:51 instantaneous experience meanwhile he’s 79:49 – 79:53 using this state-of-the-art 79:51 – 79:55 billion-dollar war machine 79:53 – 79:58 instrumentation to track these things 79:55 – 80:02 every different way possible 79:58 – 80:04 and he’s seeing it and the other boats 80:02 – 80:07 and planes are seeing it but then 80:04 – 80:09 another interesting aspect of it is 80:07 – 80:12 there’s again this screen memory thing 80:09 – 80:13 going on and he retells the story so 80:12 – 80:14 many times and I listened to it Gordon 80:13 – 80:17 and I finally asked him I said you know 80:14 – 80:18 I’ve talked to enough contact he’s let 80:17 – 80:21 me ask you this part about the 80:18 – 80:26 experience because you said that you 80:21 – 80:30 observed these 20 flying objects 80:26 – 80:34 basically trolling your ship for like 80:30 – 80:37 four days and they were flying at 22,000 80:34 – 80:40 feet at a hundred knots can’t do that 80:37 – 80:43 nothing can do that but you didn’t think 80:40 – 80:46 it was anything to worry about I said I 80:43 – 80:47 gotta tell you how many times I’ve heard 80:46 – 80:50 that story 80:47 – 80:54 from a contact II oh I saw my wife being 80:50 – 80:55 abducted but I decided I should go 80:54 – 80:57 upstairs and go back to bed because 80:55 – 81:00 there was nothing there to worry about 80:57 – 81:03 so he not only has this experience but 81:00 – 81:05 all the other people in on the other 81:03 – 81:08 boats that you know are having the same 81:05 – 81:09 experience oh those are nothing to worry 81:08 – 81:13 about 81:09 – 81:18 they’re just enough so I think there’s 81:13 – 81:22 something more than just wargames 81:18 – 81:24 advanced weapon or advanced technology 81:22 – 81:27 being hidden I think it’s a real contact 81:24 – 81:30 experience and I think they’re playing 81:27 – 81:35 around with true disclosure that is I 81:30 – 81:40 think there’s there is disclosure that 81:35 – 81:43 could be planet changing but there’s a 81:40 – 81:45 wrestling match of the usual kind in 81:43 – 81:47 terms of who’s going to control that 81:45 – 81:49 information and how and when they bring 81:47 – 81:53 it out because obviously that can 81:49 – 81:55 dictate how the script gets written from 81:53 – 81:57 there on 81:55 – 82:01 yeah I’m not sure I’d go the whole way 81:57 – 82:03 there it may well be of course I what 82:01 – 82:05 the closest I would get to that because 82:03 – 82:06 I still think this is when I say it’s an 82:05 – 82:08 op it doesn’t mean because they know 82:06 – 82:09 damn well that they don’t have some of 82:08 – 82:11 these toys that they’re talking about 82:09 – 82:13 right and I don’t know the origins of 82:11 – 82:14 those toys I don’t think you necessarily 82:13 – 82:16 need to have a crush spaceship to make 82:14 – 82:17 some of the kind of things that existed 82:16 – 82:19 when I’m supposed to but maybe that’s 82:17 – 82:22 where you got them from I do think there 82:19 – 82:26 is a kind of signaling game going on at 82:22 – 82:28 a higher geopolitical level and I think 82:26 – 82:30 Russia and China and obviously everyone 82:28 – 82:35 is playing alone this ain’t like they’re 82:30 – 82:38 trying to rattle sabers that we aren’t 82:35 – 82:39 supposed to think exists so if you look 82:38 – 82:40 at the recent Russia thing that may or 82:39 – 82:42 may not be true that they have like a 82:40 – 82:43 ray gun that can cause hallucinations 82:42 – 82:46 and comments and they’re putting on the 82:43 – 82:47 ship that may exist that may not but we 82:46 – 82:48 have this kind of stuff going on in the 82:47 – 82:51 West it may have that and what I’m 82:48 – 82:53 seeing is oh just mean just put it on a 82:51 – 82:55 nation basis obviously because I think 82:53 – 82:57 we’re potentially to geopolitically 82:55 – 82:59 sophisticated to to have it as a 82:57 – 83:02 national discussion or between nations 82:59 – 83:03 discussion but I do think in some of 83:02 – 83:05 this hullabaloo and front page and you 83:03 – 83:06 if for somebody to go in the front page 83:05 – 83:11 of the New York Times it’s get signed 83:06 – 83:13 off in Langley right so I do think 83:11 – 83:14 there’s what we’re seeing in a whole 83:13 – 83:16 bunch of different fora 83:14 – 83:19 at the moment on the geopolitical stage 83:16 – 83:22 people are rattling sabers that we 83:19 – 83:23 aren’t supposed to know exists and and 83:22 – 83:25 that would be as close as I get to I 83:23 – 83:26 think there’s a wrestle over disclosure 83:25 – 83:29 I think they’re like you go flying 83:26 – 83:34 saucers I got a vomit producing ray gun 83:29 – 83:36 perhaps hmm okay we might another topic 83:34 – 83:40 let’s see if we have time to get to five 83:36 – 83:42 or not but this is one first of all 83:40 – 83:45 here’s the guy you’re looking at the 83:42 – 83:48 first guy I know who totally called odd 83:45 – 83:51 patreon probably a year ago yeah a year 83:48 – 83:54 ago said yeah no it ain’t it ain’t gonna 83:51 – 83:56 happen it’s gonna turn the way that all 83:54 – 83:58 the other ones will turn as if we could 83:56 – 84:02 see those other ones turning censorship 83:58 – 84:03 hardcore softcore so tell us and you 84:02 – 84:06 know I pulled to make my little meme 84:03 – 84:07 there I think I’m not very interesting 84:06 – 84:11 head might just 84:07 – 84:14 last couple days from our buddy but you 84:11 – 84:16 know jack conte who’s the CEO of patreon 84:14 – 84:19 the news story that I ran across that I 84:16 – 84:22 thought you know for people like you and 84:19 – 84:25 I we can would love to spin it reading 84:22 – 84:28 between the lines but his big news flash 84:25 – 84:31 was hey Patriot the current patreon 84:28 – 84:35 model is not sustainable and what he was 84:31 – 84:37 signaling was I think hey motherfuckers 84:35 – 84:39 get in line you worried about censorship 84:37 – 84:42 I’m gonna I’m gonna change the whole 84:39 – 84:43 damn thing instead of getting 90% I’m 84:42 – 84:46 gonna tell you how much you can get and 84:43 – 84:48 it’s gonna be a lot less than 90% in the 84:46 – 84:50 future and more importantly what he’s 84:48 – 84:53 signaling is I’m running a business here 84:50 – 84:57 and when I run a business I listen to 84:53 – 84:60 the people who basically set the rules 84:57 – 85:03 for my business and the rules for my 84:60 – 85:06 business going forward are censorship 85:03 – 85:08 because that’s the game that is always 85:06 – 85:10 going to be at play it’s only a matter 85:08 – 85:14 of who’s doing the censoring what do you 85:10 – 85:16 think of patreon well like my background 85:14 – 85:19 I’ve been in startups and had them 85:16 – 85:23 acquired and from essentially my space 85:19 – 85:24 on a platform just gets worse 85:23 – 85:26 it happens with Facebook it happen for 85:24 – 85:30 Twitter and and from a commercial 85:26 – 85:32 perspective Etsy and PayPal both kick 85:30 – 85:34 off businesses that they decide or 85:32 – 85:35 unilaterally like an astrologer or 85:34 – 85:37 something that they declare doesn’t 85:35 – 85:40 exist so it’s like you’re always at risk 85:37 – 85:43 in our space whether it’s a podcast or 85:40 – 85:46 whether it’s magic or whatever you want 85:43 – 85:51 how many times do you have to get fucked 85:46 – 85:53 over by Silicon Valley’s eternal just 85:51 – 85:55 nature before you go oh no this time 85:53 – 85:56 it’ll be different this time would be 85:55 – 85:57 great and so I did have a bit of 85:56 – 86:00 experience in like there’s no way this 85:57 – 86:03 ends well because none of them have as 86:00 – 86:05 for the censorship component on a macro 86:03 – 86:07 basis I actually in a funny way I think 86:05 – 86:09 it’s good news 86:07 – 86:13 firstly it is surprising to me that 86:09 – 86:16 people didn’t realize what platforms 86:13 – 86:19 like Google like YouTube and whatever 86:16 – 86:21 actually were and I’ve kind of confused 86:19 – 86:23 it is some sort of public free 86:21 – 86:25 expression when it is a it’s a corporate 86:23 – 86:29 product at back set back ends into DARPA 86:25 – 86:31 right so hold on I mean I think we have 86:29 – 86:34 to make a distinction there because I’m 86:31 – 86:37 with you when you say back into back 86:34 – 86:40 ends into DARPA but in another respect 86:37 – 86:44 it is the public square it is the Fourth 86:40 – 86:47 Estate it is the of our time it is and 86:44 – 86:49 that play could have been made and I 86:47 – 86:51 think that you know that those questions 86:49 – 86:54 will be answered in the courts years 86:51 – 86:57 from now but I look at it they’re surely 86:54 – 87:00 going to lose because you know jack 86:57 – 87:04 conte can’t on one hand say i banned 87:00 – 87:07 this right-wing woman because she was 87:04 – 87:09 endangering our group got together and 87:07 – 87:12 decided i mean as soon as you start 87:09 – 87:14 policing your content in that way then 87:12 – 87:15 you are in the business of 87:14 – 87:17 editorializing and you’re putting 87:15 – 87:19 yourself in a little sure a whole 87:17 – 87:21 different thing so and the whole thing 87:19 – 87:24 with like with alex jones we also have 87:21 – 87:25 up there like alex jones don’t like alex 87:24 – 87:28 jones but i think he is kind of exposed 87:25 – 87:31 himself lately with the trump epstein 87:28 – 87:32 thing which he’s gone a gone way over 87:31 – 87:36 clearly there’s a connection there and 87:32 – 87:39 for him to to allow his buddy Roger 87:36 – 87:41 stone to get on there and say oh you’re 87:39 – 87:44 like a classic digression but Roger 87:41 – 87:47 stone to to get on there and say the 87:44 – 87:50 only time Trump ever saw Epstein is when 87:47 – 87:52 his chauffeur drove him past his house 87:50 – 87:55 and he said oh look he must be heavy 87:52 – 87:57 he must be having a birthday party for 87:55 – 87:59 some young girls look at all the young 87:57 – 88:01 girls at that pool and then he realized 87:59 – 88:04 it was something more so he just drove 88:01 – 88:07 on by I mean this it has gone so over 88:04 – 88:09 the top with Alex that I don’t know that 88:07 – 88:12 we can get him back to where he was 88:09 – 88:15 where he was really I think that true 88:12 – 88:18 truther and was dishing out some truth 88:15 – 88:23 but I digress again because the point is 88:18 – 88:25 you cannot ban someone on every fucking 88:23 – 88:28 platform in a coordinated way on the 88:25 – 88:31 same day and have that not 88:28 – 88:34 that’s clearly collusion and it’s 88:31 – 88:36 clearly obstruction of obstruction of 88:34 – 88:39 trade and he will win in the courts but 88:36 – 88:42 it’s gonna come five or seven years from 88:39 – 88:45 now when no one cares but it isn’t as 88:42 – 88:46 simple as oh those are platforms and 88:45 – 88:48 they can do whatever they want I mean 88:46 – 88:52 that’s something that is gonna have to 88:48 – 88:55 be here well I guess I’m just feeling it 88:52 – 88:57 tactically because my I’ve worked with 88:55 – 88:58 these companies that was my career 88:57 – 89:01 before I did this and like there’s no 88:58 – 89:02 way I would have there’s no way I would 89:01 – 89:04 setup what it is they do in a way that 89:02 – 89:07 is reliant on any of them because again 89:04 – 89:08 it’s Fox and the Scorpion I know how 89:07 – 89:11 they behave and they know how they end 89:08 – 89:13 up so yes there’s absolutely a case and 89:11 – 89:16 here’s the bit that I was kind of I got 89:13 – 89:17 halfway through which is I actually see 89:16 – 89:19 this as good news and I don’t mean the 89:17 – 89:20 banning of people and so and every time 89:19 – 89:22 they do this and you’re noticing and 89:20 – 89:24 especially with Twitter at the moment 89:22 – 89:25 and the whole platform gets worst and 89:24 – 89:28 people don’t want to be there anymore 89:25 – 89:30 every time they do this they make the 89:28 – 89:33 thing that they’re trying to make safe 89:30 – 89:36 or better worse and it just seems like 89:33 – 89:38 everyone’s kind of working that out at 89:36 – 89:39 either looking for a new thing or 89:38 – 89:44 realizing that we do need to pivot 89:39 – 89:45 towards a a more decentralized to 89:44 – 89:47 connect in an analogue way rather than 89:45 – 89:50 everyone hanging out on a platform I 89:47 – 89:52 actually see it as a kind of good news 89:50 – 89:55 that there and it kind of shows him in 89:52 – 89:57 many respects how scared they are or 89:55 – 89:58 aware they are that the kind of 89:57 – 90:01 overarching propaganda is failing 89:58 – 90:04 because propaganda always kind of fails 90:01 – 90:06 before a regime change and you sort of 90:04 – 90:09 get the sense that we’ve got a few years 90:06 – 90:11 left to run if these idiots making it so 90:09 – 90:13 much more awful because they’ve got 90:11 – 90:18 their marching orders from whoever like 90:13 – 90:20 you know wherever they come from they 90:18 – 90:23 just it’s gonna be crap but I actually 90:20 – 90:26 kind of see it as a it’s going to be 90:23 – 90:27 more slightly more difficult and this is 90:26 – 90:31 just how the world works to be on the 90:27 – 90:33 Internet in a satisfactory way but in 90:31 – 90:35 the medium term maybe that’s good like 90:33 – 90:38 maybe we will end up with ways that 90:35 – 90:40 don’t rely wholly on everyone being on a 90:38 – 90:43 platform that is they go DARPA funded 90:40 – 90:47 valence thing right I don’t know I’ve 90:43 – 90:49 been beaten up a bit more yeah no I 90:47 – 90:52 spot-on I really like where you’re going 90:49 – 90:55 and I think again that is being played 90:52 – 90:57 out as we speak because the third meme I 90:55 – 91:00 have up there is you know Joe Rogan’s 90:57 – 91:04 recent interview with Jack Dorsey at 91:00 – 91:08 Twitter and the news out of that is you 91:04 – 91:12 know 10,000 thumbs down on YouTube 91:08 – 91:14 because of Joe Rogan who if anyone who 91:12 – 91:17 doesn’t understand him I don’t want to 91:14 – 91:21 say he’s a show cuz he’s not but I mean 91:17 – 91:24 he’s just a part of that megaphone now 91:21 – 91:27 you know in some way that we don’t 91:24 – 91:30 totally understand and whether he’s 91:27 – 91:32 co-opted or just following the cheese 91:30 – 91:35 that’s laid down through the maze or who 91:32 – 91:35 cares or you know but you know there he 91:35 – 91:38 is 91:35 – 91:41 tossing softball questions to Jack 91:38 – 91:43 Dorsey but to your point it’s thumbs 91:41 – 91:46 down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down 91:43 – 91:48 to where you know he had to apologize to 91:46 – 91:52 his listeners yeah right I’ll do it 91:48 – 91:54 better next time yeah right and or 91:52 – 91:56 YouTube should get rid of that thumbs 91:54 – 91:60 down thing anyway why don’t we just have 91:56 – 92:02 likes we don’t need this likes but to 91:60 – 92:05 your point I think those are the throws 92:02 – 92:08 of a dying fish you know what I mean 92:05 – 92:10 absolutely Netflix is doing it as well I 92:08 – 92:14 mean they actually got rid of the rating 92:10 – 92:17 system because Amy Schumer yeah when her 92:14 – 92:19 okay yeah when her show came out 92:17 – 92:22 whatever it was 18 months ago and it was 92:19 – 92:23 terrible because they had she’d made 92:22 – 92:27 such a big fuss about being paid the 92:23 – 92:29 same amount as forget who and everyone 92:27 – 92:31 found it awful that they did what 92:29 – 92:34 YouTube may well do which is that I will 92:31 – 92:36 remove the negative bit guys this is 92:34 – 92:38 this is not how you it’s almost you 92:36 – 92:39 could always make a medical metaphor but 92:38 – 92:41 you were treating the symptoms here and 92:39 – 92:43 and I don’t think they have the 92:41 – 92:45 awareness to do anything else I don’t 92:43 – 92:47 really watch Alex Jones so I’m not sure 92:45 – 92:51 what he’s up to or any 92:47 – 92:54 I enjoy Alex Jones immensely I have to 92:51 – 92:57 say because he’s an entertainer he is 92:54 – 93:01 directly at this point especially he’s 92:57 – 93:04 completely crossed over the line too 93:01 – 93:06 we really can’t take him anything other 93:04 – 93:09 than and then entertainment and for any 93:06 – 93:13 Oh everything after his apology to James 93:09 – 93:15 elephant is on it was it’s all is 93:13 – 93:17 revealed you know why do we have to 93:15 – 93:19 apologize did James elephant this for 93:17 – 93:22 pizza gate why did we have to do that 93:19 – 93:24 well clearly to me there’s some kind of 93:22 – 93:26 connection with his you know Trump has 93:24 – 93:28 taken that off the table that will not 93:26 – 93:30 be pursued there will not be any 93:28 – 93:32 draining of the swamp and I think the 93:30 – 93:34 orders came down there and that’s the 93:32 – 93:37 thread that I follow with Alex Jones 93:34 – 93:39 that clarifies where that the whole 93:37 – 93:41 thing is gone but uh enough on him I had 93:39 – 93:43 one more topic labs and see if we could 93:41 – 93:46 if we could get there but in a lot of 93:43 – 93:49 ways I think we already have when we 93:46 – 93:52 talked about counterfeited spirituality 93:49 – 93:56 that seems to be strictly looking at 93:52 – 93:59 empirical data the data from the alien 93:56 – 94:01 contact experience mainly the data 93:59 – 94:03 that’s been collected by bond buddy ray 94:01 – 94:05 Hernandez in the free organization 94:03 – 94:08 they’re the only ones who did a real 94:05 – 94:12 scientific study of it including Leo 94:08 – 94:14 sprinkle and other PhD level Harvard PhD 94:12 – 94:15 level people who know how to collect 94:14 – 94:18 that kind of data for whatever it’s 94:15 – 94:20 worth survey empirical data but those 94:18 – 94:22 experiences line up almost perfectly 94:20 – 94:25 with the near-death experience so sure 94:22 – 94:27 what do you do with that data one way to 94:25 – 94:30 interpret that is that these are truly 94:27 – 94:32 spiritual experiences and I’m one person 94:30 – 94:37 who’s pounding the drum over there kind 94:32 – 94:38 of with your demonic trickster kind of 94:37 – 94:42 sensibility that you’re expressing going 94:38 – 94:45 really are we sure it could the 94:42 – 94:47 technology again loosely using the term 94:45 – 94:50 technology be so developed that they can 94:47 – 94:51 counterfeit the spiritual experience and 94:50 – 94:53 I wonder if you have any thoughts 94:51 – 94:56 absolutely like when and I love rayon 94:53 – 94:58 and stuff as well this you know what I’m 94:56 – 94:60 gonna say like so if near-death 94:58 – 95:06 experiences or 94:60 – 95:08 contact and UFO cases have have a lot of 95:06 – 95:10 structural similarities and had 95:08 – 95:12 after-effects in people’s lives yeah 95:10 – 95:14 this is that kind of naive Western idea 95:12 – 95:17 of well then it you know well my my 95:14 – 95:19 granny’s in heaven and and I spoke to an 95:17 – 95:20 alien so this must be good that’s really 95:19 – 95:21 really not even you know what I’m gonna 95:20 – 95:24 say it looks like the spirit world to me 95:21 – 95:26 the spirit world is ambivalent and and 95:24 – 95:29 we just that’s one of the things perhaps 95:26 – 95:31 we could learn by doing comparison a 95:29 – 95:33 little bit better so that we don’t have 95:31 – 95:35 this binary of is it aliens or is it 95:33 – 95:37 ghosts and are they good or are they bad 95:35 – 95:39 there are a better way 95:37 – 95:41 literally objectively better ways of 95:39 – 95:43 coming at this material and and 95:41 – 95:45 understanding that it has some 95:43 – 95:47 ambivalence or it might have one or more 95:45 – 95:49 agendas like that’s that’s how we’ve 95:47 – 95:51 always interacted with as a species 95:49 – 95:53 that’s how we’ve always interacted so 95:51 – 95:55 you have a hundred percent with you and 95:53 – 95:57 that I love race stuff I do think on the 95:55 – 96:01 edges of that you do get people who are 95:57 – 96:04 who are more optimistic about the 96:01 – 96:06 motives for extra dimensional contact 96:04 – 96:09 and I think we should be maybe these are 96:06 – 96:11 business backward Alex you know maybe 96:09 – 96:14 this is something like that but I’m 96:11 – 96:17 generally I want to know why someone is 96:14 – 96:22 nice yeah I want to know why someone is 96:17 – 96:26 being nice yes that that is a business 96:22 – 96:29 value that I can definitely tune into 96:26 – 96:31 you know it’s it’s been awesome we’ve 96:29 – 96:33 spent you an hour and 45 minutes it’s 96:31 – 96:36 flown by Gordon tell folks 96:33 – 96:38 what’s going on with Rhian soup and 96:36 – 96:40 where the hell is the book buddy you 96:38 – 96:43 know yeah gotta be one or two of them 96:40 – 96:46 out there what’s what’s the delay um the 96:43 – 96:47 delay is I’m you know I have about three 96:46 – 96:48 full-time jobs at the moment because 96:47 – 96:50 they have a brand new farm which is a 96:48 – 96:51 full-time job and I have a Premium 96:50 – 96:53 Membership because they don’t use 96:51 – 96:54 patreon for people who like this kind of 96:53 – 96:58 stuff we do quarterly courses the next 96:54 – 97:00 one is on ancestors and contact with the 96:58 – 97:03 dead and so you can do that Edwin suit 97:00 – 97:06 obviously the majority of it is free the 97:03 – 97:07 show the blog and the Facebook page if 97:06 – 97:09 somebody wants to take a course just a 97:07 – 97:12 kind of detail there someone wants to 97:09 – 97:12 take a course how do they pay for it are 97:12 – 97:13 you 97:12 – 97:16 into patreon if they want to do that I 97:13 – 97:17 don’t a picture and you’re like you just 97:16 – 97:19 click on the members section of the 97:17 – 97:22 website and join up it’s the same idea 97:19 – 97:23 like yeah there’s a monthly fee and well 97:22 – 97:25 there’s a monthly membership but it’s 97:23 – 97:27 not just the one course we don’t sell 97:25 – 97:29 them differently we do like the live 97:27 – 97:31 video and people go in holidays together 97:29 – 97:34 and oh all kinds of weird it’s it’s it’s 97:31 – 97:37 a really fun and missing group lunatics 97:34 – 97:41 like me but if you’re meant together 97:37 – 97:43 right you guys do oh yeah and I in fact 97:41 – 97:45 credit the fact that this sixty thousand 97:43 – 97:48 hectare bushfire got 800 meters from the 97:45 – 97:51 farm and no further to the repeated kind 97:48 – 97:53 of intention exercises and and nakshatra 97:51 – 97:55 mantras we did on a big simultaneous 97:53 – 97:58 group basis and it’s it’s been an 97:55 – 98:01 incredible last few weeks and if that 97:58 – 98:04 kind of if you like if you like 98:01 – 98:08 exploring sceptical style content in a 98:04 – 98:10 way that is is embodied I guess that 98:08 – 98:15 might be for you it might not listen to 98:10 – 98:17 the show anyway who are the I have not 98:15 – 98:20 popped over there I’m a member but I 98:17 – 98:22 just haven’t made the leap and I don’t 98:20 – 98:25 know exactly why because I want to poke 98:22 – 98:29 in there I love that idea of embodying 98:25 – 98:32 it in finding like-minded folks who’s 98:29 – 98:34 coming over there give me an idea of the 98:32 – 98:37 of the profile I’m sure it’s a wide 98:34 – 98:39 variety of folks but yeah there’s 98:37 – 98:41 there’s a lot of sort of background and 98:39 – 98:43 interest overlaps magic being the 98:41 – 98:45 principle when is a magic we operate 98:43 – 98:46 people by and large and the course is it 98:45 – 98:47 very specifically because they vote on 98:46 – 98:50 them they’re very specifically about 98:47 – 98:53 magic but we’ll end up doing other ones 98:50 – 98:55 eventually and so with this fascinating 98:53 – 98:58 overlaps with people without their 98:55 – 99:01 permaculture background or philosophy 98:58 – 99:04 the majority of them are in the u.s. 99:01 – 99:07 yeah it’s there they’re amazing and 99:04 – 99:08 their lives they get up to and this is 99:07 – 99:09 one of the things that’s from about our 99:08 – 99:11 little world you meet the most 99:09 – 99:14 remarkable people 99:11 – 99:15 awesome well I really hope people check 99:14 – 99:17 that out and they’re gonna find me over 99:15 – 99:19 there more because I really want to do 99:17 – 99:21 that I think what you’re creating and 99:19 – 99:23 the community that you’re creating is 99:21 – 99:24 super important and talk about embodying 99:23 – 99:26 it in 99:24 – 99:28 here’s a guy that a couple years ago was 99:26 – 99:31 talking I remember when we were talking 99:28 – 99:34 we’re sitting out on the patio near my 99:31 – 99:38 house and you were visualizing what you 99:34 – 99:40 did manifest I mean exactly 99:38 – 99:42 and it was really kind of remarkable to 99:40 – 99:45 see you go through that process so you 99:42 – 99:47 have a nice little apple farm and 99:45 – 99:49 whatever else you’re farming there on 99:47 – 99:53 the edge of the world over looking at 99:49 – 99:55 arctica and you’ve tell people a little 99:53 – 99:57 bit about that project that you’ve that 99:55 – 99:59 you’ve undertaken there because I know a 99:57 – 100:01 lot of people really find that it’s kind 99:59 – 100:06 of the total reframe of the prepper 100:01 – 100:09 thing into a positive lifestyle where I 100:06 – 100:13 want to be regardless of how good or bad 100:09 – 100:15 things get no exactly so I mean I’m a 100:13 – 100:17 permaculture designer and events officer 100:15 – 100:19 for permaculture tasmania we’ve only 100:17 – 100:21 just got here so it’d only been here 100:19 – 100:23 twelve months so it still just looks 100:21 – 100:25 like over grace sheet paddock with a few 100:23 – 100:28 things that we’ve planted right but that 100:25 – 100:32 is the general idea to kind of live you 100:28 – 100:36 know in a way that is experimental in 100:32 – 100:38 the sense of there are permaculture this 100:36 – 100:41 is a whole separate show right it is in 100:38 – 100:43 a really interesting place in terms of 100:41 – 100:45 what it does next and I’m very 100:43 – 100:46 interested in that overlap I know dr. 100:45 – 100:48 hunter is as well and contributing to 100:46 – 100:50 his latest book in that kind of sense so 100:48 – 100:53 yeah we live on five acres in in 100:50 – 100:55 southern Tasmania and beginning a sort 100:53 – 100:55 of permaculture journey which will 100:55 – 100:57 include 100:55 – 100:59 you know on-farm produce and 100:57 – 101:01 accommodation and and all the other 100:59 – 101:02 things and it’s amazing yeah when it’s 101:01 – 101:05 not on fire it’s an amazing place to be 101:02 – 101:08 awesome well it’s been just great 101:05 – 101:09 reconnecting with your own skeptic oh I 101:08 – 101:12 know so many people will appreciate this 101:09 – 101:14 interview Gordon do take care or let’s 101:12 – 101:16 stay in touch and thanks again for 101:14 – 101:18 joining me absolutely thank you for 101:16 – 101:18 having me [box]
More From Skeptiko
AI Ethics is About Truth… Or Maybe Not |638|
Ben Byford, Machine Ethics Podcast Another week in AI and more droning on about how..Nathan Labenz from the Cognitive Revolution podcast |637|
AI Ethics may be unsustainable -=-=-= In the clamor surrounding AI ethics and safety are..AI Truth Ethics |636|
Launching a new pod Here are the first three episodes of the AI Truth Ethics..AI Journalism Truth |635|
Craig S. Smith used to write for WSJ and NYT, now he’s into AI. After..AI Tackles Yale/Stanford Junk Science |634|
AI stumbles on data analysis but eventually gets it right. Ready for another AI truth..AI Goes Head-to-head With Sam Harris on Free Will |633|
Flat Earth and no free will claims are compared. In Skeptiko 633, we ran another..AI Exposes Truth About NDEs |632|
AI head-to-head with Lex Fridman and Dr. Jeff Long over NDE science. In Skeptiko 632,..Convincing AI |631|
Mark Gober and I use AI to settle a scientific argument about viruses. In Skeptiko..Fake AI Techno-Religion |630|
Tim Garvin’s new book prompts an AI chat about spirituality. Multi-agent reinforcement learning and other..