photo by: Skeptiko
Welcome to Skeptiko, where we explore controversial science and spirituality, with leading researchers, thinkers and their critics. I’m your host Alex Tsakiris and on today’s episode, mediumistic, healer, channeler, communicator, and life-coach Joy Lin is joining me.
Now, a quick backstory here. I originally heard about Joy through her interview about a year ago on Mysterious Universe; there’s a link in the show notes. It’s a fantastic interview. It tells the story of Joy who was a very well-educated engineer who suddenly and dramatically started having these experiences with spirits. So, she thinks she’s going crazy, goes through all the conventional kind of medical explanations and ultimately winds up with a Reiki healer who says, “No I’m sorry, it’s not that, it’s just that you’re connected now and you’ve got to deal with it.” And she has dealt with it in a pretty amazing way.
Now, I know Joy because I contacted her — and I tell the story later in the interview — to do a healing for me, because I was going through a health issue and I decided that, while I was at the same time doing conventional therapy (which was a disaster by the way) I would also seek alternative treatments of various kinds, including Joy. While I can’t say her healing, per se, changed anything for me, the intuitive information that she brought through in the healing was dramatically profound and I said, “Wow, you’re the real deal, I have to have you on Skeptiko, because there’s all these issues that keep coming up about what’s really going on with mediumship, what’s really going on with healing, what’s really going on with good and evil and these other realms.” And she has some incredible stories about that by the way, very chilling, if you will, so all that stuff got wrapped into this interview. It was a long discussion, she was here in the studio, we just talked, conversationally, and I had to kind of try and edit it into something meaningful and I hope you enjoy it. It’s about an hour long and it was really cool having here in the studio. Here’s my dialog with Joy Lin.
Alex Tsakiris: People come to you for different reasons: some people are coming to you for spiritual development, some people are coming to you to get ahead in their career, which isn’t directly tied to spiritual development right? So we kind of have two different — it seems like — paths that we’re all going down all the time. More or less, we’re just trying to make it through this life and make good decisions that seem to make our life more comfortable and better, and you are not averse to helping people to do that right? If somebody comes to you and says, “Hey, I’m trying to get ahead in my job, I’m trying to get ahead in my career,” but if somebody else comes and says, “You know what is most important to me, is spiritual development and I don’t really care about the other,” I mean there are two different aspects to this.
Joy Lin: Yes and no, they’re one and the same, because getting ahead in their career could help them learn and experience what they need to learn, to grow spiritually.
Alex Tsakiris: Yeah, it could totally screw up their spiritual development because it gets them upset.
Joy Lin: Yeah.
Alex Tsakiris: So, I mean, you can say that all the time.
Joy Lin: Yeah it is about… but it’s where they need to be, wherever it is they need to experience in getting what they want. We are living a human experience. We are trying to ‘survive’, get ahead and trying to live in this reality and sometimes escape to another realm or our true-self or our soul-self and [have] that balance, but it’s the experience the soul wants to have, and if the soul or the egos says, you know, “I want to get ahead, I want to be rich, blah, blah, blah, how can you help me in my career?” It’s one of human survival, but during that course of that journey to, “I want to make money, to find love,” the lessons the soul learns will be what it needs to develop spiritually.
Spiritual development is the spirit that evolves, that takes experiences learned in this life and transcends it, or remembers it and adds it to the actual spirit, the actual essence of who you are, that will be carried to different lifetimes.
Alex Tsakiris: You know where I always go when people go down that path — it’s like, okay what about evil, what about people who do really bad things?
Joy Lin: Um-hum.
Alex Tsakiris: You know, first, before we go into that, tell me that story that you told me, I love that story, I’ve used this story several times. I’ll have to remind you of the story.
Joy Lin: Yeah, which story? Oh that story. That story I told you without you recording it last time, I think that was…
Alex Tsakiris: Well now it’s going to be live, you can do what the heck you want; you can soften it off a little bit, but that’s the story.
Joy Lin: Okay.
Alex Tsakiris: Because all this flowery bullshit about how, “Oh well, you know my spirit is growing…” No it’s not always growing, it’s sometimes retrograding a little bit.
Joy Lin: We’re human, we’re human.
Alex Tsakiris: I don’t buy that, I don’t buy that, “We’re human,” we have free will.
Joy Lin: Oh, I know.
Alex Tsakiris: We make bad choices and bad choices are something to be avoided, they’re not something to… Well tell the story, tell the story.
Joy Lin: Okay. Well bad choices, I would call them experiences, because I think…
Alex Tsakiris: Tell the story.
Joy Lin: Alright, okay, I really hope my ex isn’t listening. Alright. I went through a really horrible breakup where the person I was dating cheated on me and I caught them cheating on me and it was very traumatic for me, I was very, very angry and I went to, kind of a dark place of depression and just a lot of hate and anger in my life. Somebody that works with as much energy and spirit that I do, and channels that energy, I think that can get a little bit dangerous at times. It was a dark place in my life and I was hating him, I was absolutely hating him and he… Anyway, well he worked with haunted, basically, or had spirits around. He knew it, everyone in town kind of knew it, in that particular building.
One night, I was just so angry and I know I can talk to spirits because I do that in my job as a medium, and I decided in my anger to talk to the spirits at his work and, I’m a little sheepish in saying this now, and basically, in a not nice way, I told them to basically attack him. I was so angry, I… yeah I basically was like, you know, “Hurt him, attack him, whatever, I just don’t care.”
I could feel the energy in my body, it was different than the energy that normally comes through me when I do this type of work, it was stronger but it was darker. Of course, I did this at night and probably there was a full moon or something, but it was scary and I was by myself and I was just… at that point I didn’t care. I could feel it, I could see it, I could connect with the energy there, the spirits there and I was like, “Here’s his name, here’s his address, go and get them,” type of thing.
Then I felt something come up behind me and it was just ever so slightly and it was basically saying, “Yes, yes we can do that”, but then it said, “but what will you do for us?” And I kind of froze there because it was cold, it was very cold and it was like whispering in my ear and it was like it was negotiating, and I had to stop. I literally was like, I dropped everything I was like, “Just kidding, okay? Let’s just take it all back now, let’s just keep him safe, let’s keep everyone safe,” because I knew it could get a hold of me and I could let it .
I’ve seen people like this actually, I’ve seen clients like this, where my guys won’t even work with them because they’re too far gone. I mean, we have control of our bodies, you’re not really possessed, I mean, you are, you’re not in a sense that you have attachments in this kind of sense and when we channel or trance, the spirits just get close enough to our energy and our aura for us to feel them and to talk through us. But this type of channeling, so to speak, or attachment is something different, because you have control of your body, so you can tell the spirit and the boundaries to leave or come or whatever, you really do — you shouldn’t be afraid — you do have control of your body, but if you give up control of your body, that’s a different story.
Alex Tsakiris: This is when I think shut up and calculate gets really dangerous.
Joy Lin: Yes.
Alex Tsakiris: Because shut up and calculate tells us, if it works, do it.
Joy Lin: Yeah.
Alex Tsakiris: If I’m getting the result that I think I want or I need. The flipside of that is, I mean, that is just a bombshell to… but we have to factor that in. I love to get that out there, because you always have to factor that in and we now have to offer some kind of explanation, some kind of topology for what the extended realm looks like that incorporates that into it. And that’s what I hate, when we just gloss over it and say, “Well, we’re all evolving and eventually we’ll get to the same place.” You know what? I’d like to avoid going down that dark, demonic alley for a few lifetimes. I think I should avoid doing that. I think I will be happier if I do that. Is that a choice that I can constructively make, or is it, “Hey, wherever your path is, that’s it.” I don’t know.
Joy Lin: It is choice. It is free will, I do agree. There are energies out there but we don’t know…
Alex Tsakiris: But then, can we quit talking about it like, it’s just, it’s all an experience?
Joy Lin: It’s is an experience.
Alex Tsakiris: Yeah, but I want to avoid that experience.
Joy Lin: But it’s free choice to have that experience or not.
Alex Tsakiris: But doesn’t it seem like some people are not exercising their free choice or their free will and are getting into situations that they don’t necessarily want to get into, because they have, from a very practical sense, they’ve developed a set of beliefs that have led them to a particular…?
Joy Lin: It is, it is. So what I teach and what might be different to some other spiritual development courses, I do talk about this stuff. I do talk about boundaries and grounding and protection and clearing and, you know, the dangers of it. It’s not all rainbows, butterflies and fluffiness, for me, at least. In my experience it hasn’t been, and people get overwhelmed and scared and a lot of people don’t know what they’re doing and they open up and they go on — you know — retreats or journeys or whatever and they open up. What they’re opening up to can get them into a lot of trouble, and I have seen that. I’ve been called for house clearings, essentially removal of entities, you know, things that aren’t nice.
Alex Tsakiris: So what does that tell you about what is going on? Let me switch to the big picture question, what is going on, the best you can describe it?
Joy Lin: In terms of what?
Alex Tsakiris: What is the nature, structure, hierarchy, what’s the topology of that extended consciousness realm? I mean, this is the big question. Like you said, and you kind of kind of chuckle, like UFO, alien communication. Hey, go down that path. There seems to be a reality to that. Go down psychedelics, there seems to be a reality where people are reaching this realm. Then go down the super spiritual path or the non-dual path and they’re going to say, “Avoid all that, go past that whole… go all the way around the block, ignore all of it and just go to… there’s a consciousness beyond that that doesn’t deal with any of that.” Is that the topology? Is that the map? Is that what it is?
Joy Lin: There’s so much we don’t know, we only are shown… and like, what I was trying to say at the beginning was, it depends on the framework and model you’re comfortable with. I mean, I know some people that are comfortable with aliens and UFOs and other-worldly people. I’m not going to say that’s the vibration I’m at, but have I experienced that type of connection, when I tap into certain things? Yeah, I have people, star people, so to speak, worldly people, yeah. Do I resonate it and use it as my framework? No.
Alex Tsakiris: When you say use it as your framework, let me make sure I understand what you mean. What do you mean by that, is there a reality? I think what people struggle with is, is there a reality to that?
Joy Lin: It could be for them, if that’s what they…
Alex Tsakiris: Well, but how about… I hate that answer, “It could be for them.” We could say that about anything.
Joy Lin: There’s so much we don’t know, there’s so much we don’t know and for me…
Alex Tsakiris: But see, that’s pretty straight forward. Okay, so there’re intelligent beings on other planets that occupy this extended consciousness realm, or can access this extended consciousness realm, yes, no?
Joy Lin: I believe so. I believe there’s layers, different layers. People go into the shamanic layer, there’s the alien star people there, there’s probably a fairy realm layer of whatever there is. It’s just what you vibrate with, in terms of your energy, when I talk about framework, it’s what you resonate with. So, I talk [to] more spirituality guides and spiritual guides in that layer, but have I been able to, kind of access things in other realms? Yes. Do I talk in that language, do I pray to it or do I do rituals by it? No, because that’s not my framework, but I don’t discourage other people from it, if that’s their way to access it.
Now there are tricky little things in each world or framework, and how they best work with it, and it is dangerous. It is you. You don’t know what you don’t know, and you’re going to go up and be like, “Hey, let’s do this and let’s do this ritual and do this and connect to this,” and you don’t know what you’re getting into.
Alex Tsakiris: Okay, so when you’re using that term ‘framework’, I just want to make sure I understand, because you kind of mix in the other thing there. I think I’m getting it and it makes sense in that, if you have this big consciousness sphere out there, that is unlimited, unfathomable and we’re really can’t understand from our human intelligence, and you’re trying to tap into it to create better things for your life and for other people’s lives. Then you’re saying, you found a particular way to shut up and calculate into that, and that’s what you kind of focus on and you don’t exclude that there might be other ways?
Joy Lin: Yeah.
Alex Tsakiris: So what are the limits and boundaries of that framework? I mean, how do you feel about that framework? How have you learned that framework? What is that framework?
Joy Lin: I learn it personally from ether experience and what I’ve seen in my own scientific method way. I don’t just buy into it, but if things have happened and it’s been fairly consistent, I’m like, “Okay, I think that’s real, I’m not imaging this,” and that shapes my framework and then adjusts.
Alex Tsakiris: So you’re the spirit guy, right?
Joy Lin: Me, yes.
Alex Tsakiris: Okay, and a lot of people claim this, so we’ll just, kind of add that to another claim. So you’re the spirit guy and maybe the spirit guy is kind of helping you formulate that framework in saying, “Hey, kind of go in this direction, try this, don’t try this,” kind of thing. Is that true or…?
Joy Lin: That’s how I learned and felt and the way that I’ve learned about protection and grounding and clearing, because I’ve gotten in trouble. I’ve definitely gotten in trouble with things I don’t ever really want to experience again. But then it’s like, I’ve been guided and shown different things, or when I channel things, it’s like, “Oh, wow, okay. I didn’t think that was possible or interesting,” but it makes sense when I say it to other people, or they’ll be like, “Oh yeah, I read that somewhere,” but I’ve never read it somewhere but that’s what I was seeing.
Alex Tsakiris: But haven’t you run across people that — I have — that have channeled and learned stuff and it’s pretty whacko or it doesn’t seem to kind of fit with…?
Joy Lin: Yeah, and if it doesn’t resonate with me, I don’t…
Alex Tsakiris: Yeah, but can we kind of objectively say, it’s not good? That’s why I like science, you know, and you’re a science person too and I come back to science and say, you know, that’s not good science.
Joy Lin: So I think, literally we have an electric vibration, whether it’s the color or sound that can be translated and as we open up our vibration gets higher, we feel lighter and things that are heavier… So, if I’m at a certain vibration, drugs don’t appeal to me, right? That party thing won’t appeal to me, it just feel dirty or icky or something for me, right? But if I’m at a low vibration and I’m depressed, I’ll feel heavy and you know, people say ‘like attracts like’, and people will be like, “Wow, you’re really down, you look down,” or I’ll be depressing to be around.
Alex Tsakiris: I think that’s good and I think that I’ve maybe hammered that story again, but I’ll return to, I guess, another theme that always comes up for me.
Joy Lin: Okay.
Alex Tsakiris: And that’s that, when you talk about the evil that we talked about and the spirits, and I really appreciate you sharing this. I think it’s important, because I think it gets glossed over, in a way that maybe we hammered that out.
The flipside of that is, the moral hierarchy on the higher side, so God — to really reduce it down to a simple term, which just throws everyone through a loop, and I know, on this show when I mention it to people and then when you get into the parapsychology community, were we spend a lot of time, it’s like, they cannot handle that at all.
To me, purely from a scientific, philosophical, rational basis, it’s all over the place. If there is a hierarchy, if we can identify this dark, heavy kind of thing, and we can identify this like, love kind of thing, and then we can go and take the medium work that you do and others have done, the near-death experience work, and then come back and consistently say, “Hey, there’s a direction man, and it’s heading up,” you know? Then again, that doesn’t fit with the sphere that you’ve drawn there. I’m sorry, it doesn’t. It fits more like a pyramid and, you can draw a pyramid inside of the sphere thing, but everyone always draws the circle and says, “Well, it’s all about experience and there’s nothing good or bad.” It’s like, no, no, no, I’m not trying to lay some big trip on somebody or say that I have any kind of ability to do right or do wrong, but can we at least establish there is good and there is bad?
Joy Lin: Yeah, well you can have an experience of good or bad, like it’s free will. That’s why I was like, you can choose evil, yeah, I could have chosen that voice. I don’t really, I think that would have been a bad thing, but I could have chosen it, that was my choice.
Alex Tsakiris: So shouldn’t we always try and choose good?
Joy Lin: People might not want that in that moment.
Alex Tsakiris: But shouldn’t we always try and choose good?
Joy Lin: I think we should.
Alex Tsakiris: I think we should too, and that’s problematic for folks when you say that, is that, I think that’s we’re trying to do and not with any big heavy judgement or not with coming down and whacking people with bibles or Satan or scaring them and all that, but it does seem to me that we can kind of lose sight of that sometimes, with some of our new age stuff. We’re trying to do the right thing, which the problem is, we have a hard time doing it.
Joy Lin: Yeah, well there are consequences, they will pay their own consequences, that’s where karma and stuff comes in. But yeah, but if everyone… we should try to do the good thing or the right thing — but as you can see in the newspaper and the headlines — not everyone does and people get hurt.
Alex Tsakiris: Well, the alternative and I always find it in this kind of, loving, like a debate if you will, but there’s some people in the magic community, the occult community, that really find an attraction to the ‘do what thou wilt’, kind of thing, right? So I always point to Aleister Crowley, because he’s so despicable and he’s easy to kind of put in that category. But there is a lot of ‘do what thou wilt thing’, is that, if I’m following my true desires, there can be nothing really wrong with that, and to me, that’s okay as a philosophical position. It just seems to me to be inconsistent with the data we’re talking about here. It seems to directly conflict with the data that says, no you can’t just do what thou wilt, there’re a number of decisions that you have to make, and at every point it’s, do the right thing, do the right thing, do the right thing.
Joy Lin: Well, cause and effect. You can do what you want but you will have to pay, kind of the consequences for it. That’s where, I guess my belief of karma comes in and just the basic law of cause and effect. That’s why people are like, “Ah, don’t do this or it will come back to you,” type of thing, you know, three times worse or whatever, right. So I still do believe in free will and choice. Can they make good choices? Yes, and I hope they do. Can they make bad choices or go towards darker, heavier evil? Yeah. Will there be consequences? Yeah, whether that’s in this lifetime or another. Again, my Buddhist belief, well yeah.
Alex Tsakiris: So again, if we take it, big picture, people are seeking healing — we get that — now it’s in a number of different ways, but what is really being healed in that same sense that we’re talking about. We all have this path, we all make decisions, but then the healer comes along and does what, like helps boost us along the path or…?
Joy Lin: So I believe there’s the energy body that overlays our physical body and there’s layers within that, whether it’s mental, emotion, spiritual, as well as the physical, and the healer helps — just like if you go and see a doctor — helps facilitate that healing in those different layers. So if it’s to move on in your life or you’re feeling stuck, emotionally or mentally or physically, it’s unblocking those energies so you can be more effective in you, your energy, in your own body to make decisions, to see more clearly, to feel more grounded, to not be as heavy.
Alex Tsakiris: So let me ask the dumb question like, why do we need healing, I mean, why isn’t God just healing us? God, and I’m not sticking a religious guy in there, I’m just using that as a short cut.
Joy Lin: I think some people pray and use that, and yeah, you don’t need a healer, some people just need…
Alex Tsakiris: But some people pray, and it doesn’t work.
Joy Lin: Yeah.
Alex Tsakiris: And some people do everything possible and it doesn’t work.
Joy Lin: Yeah, and it doesn’t work.
Alex Tsakiris: And some people do nothing and it works.
Joy Lin: Yeah, but maybe they do nothing, but maybe there’s… I don’t know, they’re guides around or something else around that helps them. But like, I know I facilitate and I usually get people that come to me for healings a lot and at times as a last resort, where doctors haven’t helped them, you know, or counsellors haven’t helped them, and they just need… those are desperate really and that’s when they’re open and they’re like, “You know what, sure, I’m going to try something, I’ll be open to it.”
Alex Tsakiris: So what do you think you’re doing in that process? In that process of healing, what are you, as an energy healer, doing?
Joy Lin: I’m a channel. So for me, so for me I’m allowing spirit to work through me or their guides to work through me to help them.
Alex Tsakiris: Why does spirit need you?
Joy Lin: Because some people, I think, might not feel them, like next to them, the spirits or whatever, and because I’m channeled it’s almost more directive. It’s like somebody standing next to you and feeling that. But no, spirit doesn’t need me. We could go into meditation and I’m not there and they’ll do some healing and I’ll feel lighter, but I have a higher belief in that.
Alex Tsakiris: So you told us a little bit about your trip to New York, so folks again, back to the very beginning. Now, Joy was nice enough to stop by here because her parents live in Southern California and she’s on her way to New York next week and I think I kind of cut you off before when you were talking about this conference that you’re doing. Not a conference but more of a workshop that you’re doing. So how did that come about and what are you trying to do for people?
Joy Lin: That came about because I’ve been teaching spiritual development in Sydney, live, face to face with people and doing my work there, and since…
Alex Tsakiris: When you say spiritual development, it’s basically all the stuff we’ve been talking about for the last two hours?
Joy Lin: Yeah, pretty much. How to access their own intuition, work with their own guides or framework, learning about energy and healing, as well as reading and intuition; clairvoyance, clairaudience, clairsentience, working with energy and spirit. So I’ve been teaching that and more and more I was asking or getting clients overseas, particularly in the US, seeing if I taught in the US. Because I currently live in Sydney, Australia, I only travel here once or twice a year, so I decided to make a new curriculum that was virtual, online. So that’s evolutionaryou.com, is where you can go and check it out. I have the courses there in audio files; however, I do live courses with small groups of people, six to eight people where, after they listen to the audio files, I teach them the practical foundations and exercises that help them develop individually.
Alex Tsakiris: Let me just, that’s evolutionary ‘you’, or actually it’s evolutionary with a ‘y’ and then ‘ou’.
Joy Lin: Yes.
Alex Tsakiris: Okay, I’ll have a link in the show notes, just in case somebody wants to check it out.
Joy Lin: I didn’t want to put two Ys in, it would look…
Alex Tsakiris: Yeah, those domain needs are always high. I think you made a good choice, evolutionaryou.
Joy Lin: Well, because I feel it’s the evolution of you, as evolution as human beings. I mean, can you imagine in the future what… I mean we’re developing AI and doing all these things amazingly, but what about within ourselves? I mean, if we all have abilities and we could all develop them and tap into our intuition and power and if we also woke up type of thing, and became that consciousness, if we all could actually evolve spiritually and personally, it’s a very different world, right? We’re developing in pockets right now, yes there is something going on, people are ‘awakening’ and taking classes and stuff, so people are searching for answers to explain the unexplainable, to go beyond this realm, right? So as we evolve, that’s what I want to do and help.
So anyway, I’ve been doing these small group sessions, they’re about six to eight people, and there’s a group in New York I’ve been doing it with, basically they convinced me to go out in New York and do a live session. So I’ve been working with these people for six months and they are amazing, and if I did a before/after shot of who they were and their abilities, they’re truly amazing.
Alex Tsakiris: Tell folks, because I think last time we talked and I never said this at the beginning, but I called you, Joy, to do a healing.
Joy Lin: Yes.
Alex Tsakiris: Because I had heard on Mysterious Universe, which was about a year ago, you did an awesome interview on that. It just kind of stuck in the back of my mind that, if I was going to try, along with conventional medicine, which I did — which was a total disaster — but if I was going to try that I would also at the same time try complimentary energy healing. So I called you and I have to say, folks, I should have said this at the beginning, I’ll cut that part at the beginning: hey the reason Joy Lin is here today is because she was amazing and I’ve done these things a bunch of times and I tell folks, I’m never mean to anybody, but I say, “That just didn’t work for me,” for whatever reason. I accept that, but I don’t know if the healing part of it worked, but the intuitive part was just incredible, just incredible and I’ve told the story several time. It was like you kind of got in my head and said some things that like, only I know, I’ve never expressed to anyone else. So that was pretty cool.