Gordon White, Is Magic Outdated Tech? |405|
Gordon White of Rune Soup returns to talk Magic, ET and neo-liberal social engineering?
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photo by: Skeptiko
I’m not much of a sci-fi fan.
David (from the movie Prometheus): Am I interrupting, I thought you might be running low?
But maybe I should be more of one.
Charlie Holloway: Pour yourself a glass pal.
David: Thank you, but I’m afraid it would be wasted on me.
Charlie Holloway: You think we wasted our time coming here, don’t you?
That’s a clip from Ridley Scott’s Prometheus.
David: Your question depends on the understanding of what you hope to achieve by coming here.
Charlie Holloway: What we hoped to achieve was to meet our makers, to get answers. Why they even made us in the first place.
And darn, if it doesn’t get right to the heart of the issue.
David: Why do you think your people made me?
Charlie Holloway: We made you because we could.
David: Can you imagine how disappointing it would be for you to hear the same thing from your creator?
Why does it seem like we are compelled to try and “create better than the creator Gods,” as my friend Miguel Conner says. And why do I get so pissed off when I learn that that’s exactly what we’ve been doing?
Alex Tsakiris: They weren’t doing this from a shamanic or a magic perspective, they were doing it, as near as we can tell, “Let’s figure out how the fucking aliens do it and do it the same way. Let’s see if we can break people open in order so that we might perfect this technology.” That’s what intrigues me Gordon, what if there really is a technology component to this? And in that respect, maybe we would look at the shamanic and the magic traditions that you’re talking about in a different perspective.
Gordon White: I would just say, before we talk about the technology thing, if we are comparing the projects there of trying to weaponize these capacities of these children, that is kind of trying to break into the spirit world, and the word shaman is culturally bound, we all know that, we know what we’re talking about.
What you will find in cultures that has this as a function within it, is that the spirits choose them. So, you don’t torture all of the children in a tribe, you find the ones that the spirits have picked and go, “Unfortunately for you my little son or daughter, you’re not going to have a very good life. You get to be the shaman.”
So, as you might have figured out by now, today’s guest is Gordon White of Rune Soup. Someone I feel like I can open up to about all of my deepest, darkest extended consciousness fears and that’s what we do in this interview, along with me doing my usual poking and prodding, but who better to do that with than folks that you genuinely like and respect.
Stick around for my interview with Gordon White.
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Read Excerpts
Alex Tsakiris: Why don’t you like Ancient Aliens?
Gordon White: It’s not that I don’t like it. When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So, bouncing up and down the historical record, looking for buildings that are impressive and saying, “Aliens must have done that,” whether it’s India in the 1400s or whether it’s Gobekli Tepe or whether it’s the Maya or what have you, is insufficiently nuanced to take the discussion or the analysis or the interpretation to that next level.
I have a background in multi-channel television, so I’m ex-Discovery Channel and one of the problems with multi-channel from a commercial perspective, is they aim for evergreen programs. So, they aim to build a program that is the same every time and is popular and when I was at Discovery Channel it was Deadliest Catch, because it doesn’t change. Every season, it’s a bunch of guys on a boat with big waves and people loved it.
The trouble with a long-running program like Ancient Aliens, is exactly that. The majority of the money that a multi-channel broadcaster makes is in long-running programs that they can sell to other networks and so on, right?
So Ancient Aliens is a victim of its own success, which is, it can’t ever change because it’s hit a formula that allows people to watch it and unfortunately that is where you get into variable levels of quality.
Yes, Dr. Brandenburg’s amazing. I would suggest instead that people maybe read his book and like some pure John, because I have friends who have either been on it or turned down being on it, or have been on it and going, “I regret that, I’m not going to do that again,” and it’s largely because you sort of sit in front of a blue screen and they’ll arrange the questions, so you say a thing and get a sound bite that then they’ll kind of sequence.
So, it’s an ambitious and obviously it’s a very fascinating and valid area to cover. It’s just whether a long-running multi-channel program can deliver sufficient quality over time, and I don’t think it can, is why?
Alex Tsakiris: Okay, I want to move on because I have so many other things I want to talk to you about, but I will not move on, I will persist.
One thing that I guess I’d push back on is your first point. I think the nail that they’re pounding on is the correct nail and given the mountain that they’re they’re trying to climb, the predominant view that they’re up against, throughout academia, and it’s so pervasive, that this couldn’t possibly be true and especially concerning how long running the show is. Yes, that we do need an alternative explanation for why the pyramids look the same as the pyramids over in Central America and the larger question, is why do people look up to the sky, why is there that instinct? Why do the Dogon tell us that, hey, they just tell you straight up, “Yeah, we don’t have any contact with the outside world because the Sirians came down however many, hundreds, thousands of years ago and told us they were from the Star people”?
I mean, to me it’s almost like they have to pound on the same nail because it does seem to be the best nail at the moment. It’s the Occam’s Razor kind of thing. It’s the simplest most parsimonious answer to the question of what was the inspiration for these ancient cultures to look up and to be fascinated with the stars and star gods and all the rest of that? So, I’d kind of say that.
And I’d also defend the show in that Deadliest Catch, yes, for a while, but if you look at what the show has done recently in the last couple of years, I got to take my hat off to them. I think they’ve done a fantastic job. Their show on AI and on advanced technologies, I thought was fantastic. I think their shows where our buddy there has gone out on the road, what’s his name, [unclear 00:17:06] or?
Gordon White: George.
Alex Tsakiris: George, yeah, my Greek compadre there. I think it’s very, very great. You’re getting them out there on the road talking to people. It’s no longer the blue screen. He’s down, feet on the ground, kind of doing stuff.
We never would have imagined, I don’t think, that we would have this kind of mainstreaming of these ideas. So, I’m a big cheerleader, go, go, go, you know?
Gordon White: Well, fair enough.
Alex Tsakiris: Okay.
Gordon White: I’m not. I did write a whole book about it. I don’t think it’s the best explanation.
Alex Tsakiris: We shall return to that, because best explanation… Well, let’s stop right there. What is a better explanation today, given the data we have? And you can’t default to Jacques Vallée, because that’s not really an explanation, it’s just a call to broaden the interpretation possibilities.
Gordon White: When you talk about the similarity between pyramids, if you include Gunung Padang in that, which is in the book and I think you should, you’re dealing with a pyramid building project that happened multiple times, between 15 and 20 thousand years.
So, if they’re the inspiration for it, how many times did they come down and where are they?
There has to be a better understanding of what human interaction with off-planet is, that allows for these kinds of ideas to recur over time, because they absolutely do, and it doesn’t necessarily require physical Sirians landing in West Africa and talking to the Dogon, when we have no evidence of that but we do absolutely have evidence for telepathy and distance, like nonverbal communication, when we do these kinds of things.
So, the Sirians don’t actually need to get here to tell us this stuff and what if it’s the actual stars themselves? Like this is coming back to Dr. Sheldrake, right? Like the implications which neither of us like this, but it’s a great way of describing it. The implications of panpsychism is that the sun has some form of consciousness.
Now neither of us are panpsychists for very good reasons, but that’s what I mean. Like rather than having something for which we have no evidence, we do have evidence for these [psy capacities 00:19:49] and it seems like that’s a better place to start with. That was sort of the whole point of the book, rather than having aliens keep showing up.
Alex Tsakiris: I agree. This is the cool thing about talking with you and having this kind of exchange, because I feel like we can immediately go to the kind of, what I always call, the level 3 kind of thing, beyond the, “Oh this can’t possibly be true,” beyond the beat back at the Skeptics, beyond the, “Oh, yes. Tell me, please tell me the answer,” and just hash out the real disagreements, and not disagreements, but possibilities, because that’s really what we’re talking about.
I interviewed a guy just recently, it was a fantastic interview, because I love when these interviews go in totally different directions than I anticipate.
So, the guy’s name is Steve Briggs, and I know him through my friend Rick Archer at Buddha at the Gas Pump, because they both, for 20 years, were following around Maharishi and doing whatever he said in the TM movement. For 20 years this guy was training some of the top corporate leaders in India on transcendental meditation and on meditation techniques. He’s highly advanced and he’s meditating for seven, eight hours a day, except when he goes on retreats, and then he’s meditating for 20 hours a day for long periods of time.
He’s traveling through India and he’s meeting these unbelievable sages and mystics and he meets one, he describes him as this just beautiful, beautiful man, like his features are beautiful, but he also has this glow about him and he goes to talk to this guy and the guy says, “Yeah, I’m like a 105 thousand years old,” or whatever the hell these crazy Indian stories are. But then, he gives them some really practical advice. He says, “Look, here’s what you can do to improve your meditation practice and you’ve already been meditating for 20 years, but you’re so pretty far along, but you can just do these simple things.”
And the next thing he does, like what you were saying, he says, “And here is how you can astral travel and astral travel better, and here’s how you can gather your internal energies and travel.”
So, he travels, and he travels to Siria, to the Sirius Star System.
So, this is the interview, right? So, I’m interviewing this guy, and first, let me say that this guy is kind of like a very conventional guy in a lot of ways; MBA, tennis, played tennis at a national level in college for a scholarship. That’s when he had his first spiritual psychic experience, was on the tennis court when, it’s kind of the Michael Jordan effect, everything slows down and I can see the tennis ball, boom, boom, boom. He’s like 14 years old when this happens, and he wins the match and he’s like nationally ranked and all this stuff.
So again, they are all of these elements to the story that tie us to a reality that we kind of all accept and now he’s going to tell you he travels to the Sirius Star System. And now the story gets even wilder because he said they have all these different planets in the all these different technologies, and his explanation, just to throw this on the table, for the starships, for the UFOs is, they’re like, “Why not? Yeah, we can and do show up psychically. It’s fun. We show up in starships sometimes too, and that’s the way we do it, and why wouldn’t we do it and we like interacting?” The whole thing.
So, it’s trippy but it’s like, in another way, I’ve thought about that many times since it’s like, that’s a very fucking reasonable explanation as well.
Gordon White: I’m here for it. I Love it. I love it. I’m here for it. I think that’s great. That’s not that far from what I kind of think is going on. Absolutely.
Alex Tsakiris: Which is you’re right, you’re right that is not contradictory to what you’re saying. It’s again, taking the interpretation part of the formula and saying, you know, we’re talking about interpretation, well, we could really kind of wad that up into a ball and throw it into a wastebasket too, because all bets are off, we can interpret it just about every way you could imagine.
Gordon White: Yeah, and this guy, I haven’t listened to that show, as you can see, I’ve been out and about fleeing bushfires. But what he described isn’t that far from… and I don’t just mean in starships, about what I actually think is going on, like in the universe. That level of purpose, of interaction is like, “Why the fuck not?” That relationality, I think is what’s going on. I think that’s what’s going on, spirits aliens, whatever you want to call it.
—-
My father grew up in New Guinea and my aunt is actually New Guinean, so he kind of has an understanding, a good understanding of where different things from a “western” culture can be useful and helpful in a non-western sense.
So, growing up we would go to the islands every year because he missed it and we’d get to Sydney and he go into like a tourist tat store and he’d buy a whole bunch of $5, like, I heart Australian t-shirts and all of that kind of thing. He’d take them, and he’d take hats, and he’d take thongs and we’d go and visit different outlying communities and whatever, and not in like a weird Christian way. We were there holidaying, let’s be clear, we were not saving anyone, but he knew that we’re in their lives and we bring things and they fucking loved them.
We would come back a couple of years later and they’re still wearing the shirts because they don’t have them, they’re not in Sydney, they don’t have this stuff.
This has been, from a policy perspective, something that… And Brazil worked out, not now, they’re in quite a bad way politically, but a few decades ago, trying to navigate, at what arm’s length, do you “hold” native Brazilians living in the Amazon? How racist is it to keep them in a pristine state where they’re all there without shoes and in loincloths in an area riddled with deadly snakes, saying, “God, give me some shoes, some shoes would be great right now”?
And I think that is, when we when we talk about technology share and how, I don’t even like the word better, but like how ideas that have some utility across culture move. The iPhone is a good example, but so is meditation, so is the use of ayahuasca for contacting spirits. These are things, they are…
Alex Tsakiris: Totally but let me let me leap frog this a little bit, because where I’m really going, and I can’t usually jump that far ahead with folks is, I’m worried about, interested in, concerned with ET and ET’s ability to marshal technology in this, forgive the term, extended consciousness realm, but I’ve got to keep using it because people know what it means is opposed to UFOs versus aerial phenomena or whatever they want to call it.
So, when we hear what ET is doing, in terms of screen memory, in terms of telepathic communication, in terms of long-term surveillance and potentially counterfeited spiritual experiences, where people come back and say, “Oh I’ve had this incredible spiritual awakening, I’ve had this healing,” and another person comes back and goes, “Really? All I did was get fucked by a reptilian.” It’s like, where is the spiritual transformative…? I mean, that can be, I guess.
So, when I look at that, that makes me look at the shamanic noble savage kind of thing, halo that we can do, that isn’t, like you said, arm’s length kind of thing, might not be the right approach either.
So, I just wonder how we’re supposed to figure that shit out, and I’m not worried about being racist and I’m not worried about being fair. I’m just worrying about trying to understand it and not favoring one over another, in a way that is going to cloud my ability to interpret what might really be going on, and how much of this magic thing might be linked to a technology that we don’t fully understand and when we do understand it you will have an app to talk to the Sirians.
Gordon White: There are so many things there that I think we actually need to pivot more to their… Let me start here instead, because I was just up at a conference speaking about UFOs and contactees and talking to the Pleiadians and all of that really kind of like boomer stuff and I gave a presentation called Weather for the Aliens.
Alex Tsakiris: The presentation was what?
Gordon White: Called Weather for the Aliens and it’s a panspermia talk, right?
Alex Tsakiris: Right.
Gordon White: But I’ll tell you, having spoken to a number of demons, they will flat out say, “Yeah we’re trolling people.” They think they’re talking to the galactic federation, that’s us motherfucker.
Now, the argument then is in fact for more magic not less, because where’s your fucking iPhone is the opposite when you go into cultures that never lost this wary extradimensional diplomacy component. The majority of shamanic practice isn’t happy healing stuff, it is keeping bad shit away from the fucking village. The techniques for navigating the fact that the spirit world is sometimes deceptive, but it is certainly never presented as factual. Like, what you see is never what you get in the spirit world and you have cultures that have millennia of experience of navigating that and we have an iPhone.
So, I would argue that in fact, we need more of it rather than less and the notion that any kind of contact experience is automatically a good one, like, “Oh, look at me, I’ve had a spiritual experience,” is a very western, post-Christian idea, visited by an angel or whatever. That kind of contact is quite neoplatonic, the idea that, “Oh look, something happened to me, I interacted with a star brother.”
You won’t find that level of optimism, you will find a wariness and a hard one-cynicism in cultures that just know better from more experience of the spirit world and they’re like, “It might be that, it might be something else.” Magic is frankly better at… and I can even shrink that down to western magic, is better at navigating the reality that this is a deceptive and enigmatic process because it has those fail-safes built into it.
Within animistic cultures, when you say, “Once we learn fully what magic is about,” you never will. You kind of have an open cosmology that is hyper pragmatic because you admit and understand that you will never fully know what’s going on, but you nevertheless have to be in the world and interact. So like, what techniques, what ways of being in the world kind of work in this sort of getting along together way?
Alex Tsakiris: That’s the same problem. You will acknowledge that that is wrought with the same problems that you’re trying to, kind of, get past or overcome, right?
Gordon White: No, I would disagree, because you want animism as an ontology, I’m looking for an epistemology.
So, I know that the rise of magic has somewhat irritated you over the last year and I’m sorry to bring the bad news that it still has much further to run than Dean Radin.
But what I’m looking for is an epistemology and you’re worried that it will replace your ontology.
Alex Tsakiris: Not totally. I fully agree with the point about more is better in this case. So, a more expansive understanding of those modalities for interacting with. But we’re always going to be struggling with words in this discussion, this kind of inside baseball level 3 discussion because as soon as we start talking about spirits, we don’t know what the fuck a spirit is, no more than we know what consciousness is. It’s all part of the same blob that were pulling apart.
I would try and circle this back to my point because I’m really interested in getting your insight on this because it’s fantastic.
Did you listen to our friend Greg Carlwood’s excellent interview with Whitley Strieber?
Gordon White: If it was in the last month or so because I’ve been traveling and then fleeing bushfires, I’m behind in everything I’m afraid. So, I haven’t.
Alex Tsakiris: I don’t know how far back it was, but it was quite extraordinary and it was extraordinary particularly at this one moment when Whitley is talking about being, I don’t want to say abducted because he wasn’t, he was voluntarily admitted by his parents in this special youth program at an air force base in San Antonio, where these kids were subjected to, just a horrible kind of Skinner cage.
You walk in to the facility and these kids… just to digress slightly, Strieber says, “I can hardly believe that this happened except I found two other boys who were with me and one boy who wasn’t, because his parents, when they came and told them about the special program for gifted children in the Skinner box as in BF Skinner said, “Get the hell away from my house and don’t come back.” But his parents weren’t so inclined, or his parents were part of it or whatever.
So, he was dressed up in his Sunday Best every week in order to go to this camp. And when he first goes in, on the air force base, there are these kids locked in these little cages and they said, “That’s what happens to children who tell their parents what happens.” And it turns out that the purpose of this exercise, as near as he could tell it, I shouldn’t say exercise, this torture, this MK-Ultra program, is to break these people open, to break these souls open in order to access this extended consciousness realm.
And once we do this investigation, like you and I have, we say, “Totally understandable.” I mean, in the shamanic traditions many of them have similar kinds of… they’re not culturally understood to be torturous, they’re understood to be rites of passage, whether it’s a sweat lodge or whether it’s some other kind of experience of being stung by bees, but that would be kind of in a different thing.
But anyways, the point is the same. That is the technology that I guess I’m talking about, because certainly those folks in the air force, the MK-Ultra, three-letter agency, they weren’t doing this from a shamanic or a magic perspective, they were doing it, as near as we can tell as, “Let’s figure out how the fucking aliens do it and do it the same way.”
What I always point to is, you know, my friend Grant Cameron and the famous Wilbert Smith memo, where it’s right there, it’s written down. “We’ve gone to the US. We’ve found that the UFOs are real, and that the mental component of it is something they’re very, very interested in,” and this fits in that time frame. “Let’s see if we can break people open, so that we might perfect this technology.”
And that’s what intrigues me Gordon, is that what if there really is a technology component to this and if you will stretch technology to mean, where they can get to some level and in that respect, maybe we would look at the shamanic and the magic traditions that you’re talking about, just in a different perspective, not worse, better, but a different perspective, in terms of how developed they are and how efficacious they are at the desired result?
Gordon White: I would suspect that that again is a definitional challenge. like you kind of landed on a towards the end there, where it’s like, “Well, how do you define technology?” And if you want to do that comparison you kind of have to go techne and go back to the Ancient Greek. I like to use words like cultural complexity instead because, it is not obvious to me, although it’s certainly entirely possible.
Firstly, all of that Whitley stuff, 100%, like sure. That’s one of the things that is alarming.
I would just say, before we talk about the technology thing. If we have comparing the [unclear 00:49:50] projects, of trying to weaponize these capacities of these children, that is kind of trying to break into the spirit world, and the word shaman is culturally bound, we all know that, we know what we’re talking about. What you will find in cultures that have this as a function within it is that the spirits choose them. So, you don’t torture all the children in a tribe, you find the ones that the spirits have picked and go, “Unfortunately for you my little son or daughter, you’re not going to have a very good life. You get to be the shaman.” That’s truly horrible and God only knows what they found with these these projects, but it’s a military assault on the spirit world.
So, if we want to kind of compare these two, that’s worth thinking with.
What I think you’re getting at is, has it already happened or will we, one day, somewhere in an underground base, have a device or a machine that can bodily move you into the spirit world or teleport you via spirit tunnels, whatever you want to call them to like other points in the galaxy? Will the underground bases have a military version of some of the capacities we find in cultures that never lost magic?
Alex Tsakiris: Hold on, because that’s one question, but here’s a second question that I want you to answer at the same time. I want to use your term, cultural complexity, and I want to suggest, is it possible that ET has a cultural complexity that includes a mastery of some of this stuff, this extended consciousness stuff, that makes our understanding of shamanic cultures, as well as magic traditions, look like that photo that I have up on the screen of the nearly naked Amazonian people who we admire in some respects, but in other ways go, you know, “Here’s your compass, go find your way to the river, and there’s a boat on there with a motor in it, it’s a lot easier”?
Gordon White: I think, what happens is, you kind of get to that endpoint of where does technology…? So, one of the other things Whitley said, which I liked, is that advanced civilizations elsewhere in the galaxy have presumably developed a way to maintain continuous communication after death. And we would have been close, honestly. I think if we if spiritualism in the mid-1800s had gone in a different direction from a policy perspective, we may well have been there. It’s not even a technological solve at that point, what that means is that you are operating in the full universe rather than the component of it that you can perceive while you’re still in a meatsuit, right?
So, when you talk about a technology that relies on, shall we say like the physics of magic or the fact that the universe is magic and a technology built on that, you’re still in a universe that’s magic. So, you kind of get to this endpoint where you go, “Okay, so a civilization that can maintain continuous communication beyond death and can do instantaneous interplanetary transport and so on, those things can only work because the universe is magical. I’m using that term, but you know what I mean. Like we live in an animate or whether it’s a consciousness universe.
So yes and no. What I would say back, and I know this has happened to you as well, but it certainly happened to me on my travels to various sacred sites and weird places and being amongst, like tribal fetish objects and all this kind of stuff, is that a rock can do that.
If you go to say Marie Laveau’s tomb in New Orleans, as you walk up to it your blood pressure drops, and it’s a tomb. It’s from that level of reality that the technology can be built and who’s to say it hasn’t? Remember you’ve had guests on that can astral travel. So, who’s to say it hasn’t?
I agree with you that, you just end up with this kind of infinite or vanishing point where we might do it on a mechanistic basis or we might do it on an animistic basis, but you’ll still end up with this point, the realization that you are in an animated magic or consciousness universe, whatever, will occur. And that’s kind of where, like I’m not sure, And are there entities in the galaxy that have consciousness ray guns for want of an example? Do they have an iPhone that calls the devil? Yeah, probably, because the UFO contact experience, especially when you get to things like screen memory and so on, is a little alarming, there’s no other question, you know, I think that’s worth thinking with.
End 00:54:48
Start 01:41:15
Thanks again to Gordon White for joining me today on Skeptiko. The one question I tee up from this interview, let’s say we, as in the United States government or some shadow government or some other entity, is trying to break into the spirit world, is that okay? And what limitations, cautions and concerns should we have about that?
This, as you can tell, is a level 3 kind of discussion, but that’s the discussion I like having with you all, you wonderful, awesome Skeptiko listeners and forum posters and email senders. That’s the kind of dialogue I want to have.
So, I do hope you enjoyed this interview and if you did and you’d like to connect, please reach out and do so. I’d love to hear your thoughts on this. It’s the only way I’m going to figure this stuff out.
0:00 – 0:04 today we welcome Gordon white back to
0:02 – 0:06 skeptic Oh Gordon is of course the
0:04 – 0:10 creator and host of the very excellent
0:06 – 0:13 room soup blog and podcast as well as
0:10 – 0:15 the author of several really cool
0:13 – 0:19 interesting books you see him there on
0:15 – 0:21 the screen starships the chaos protocols
0:19 – 0:23 and one other what is it Pieces of Eight
0:21 – 0:25 isn’t that’s the one that’s the other
0:23 – 0:28 one he’s been a popular guest on skeptic
0:25 – 0:30 oh and I always look forward to
0:28 – 0:34 welcoming Gordon back to talk about all
0:30 – 0:37 sorts of goings on so Gordon welcome
0:34 – 0:41 back to sceptic oh it’s it’s an absolute
0:37 – 0:44 pleasure to be back ok I need to ask you
0:41 – 0:47 a favor right off the bat one of the
0:44 – 0:50 things I think is really cool about rune
0:47 – 0:52 soup the podcast is you have this
0:50 – 0:54 opening question and everyone knows this
0:52 – 0:56 by now but you ask people were you a
0:54 – 0:59 weird kid growing up and I thought wow
0:56 – 1:01 this is cool I have to do some kind of
0:59 – 1:04 question so I started this question and
1:01 – 1:07 I cannot get it right so you’re gonna
1:04 – 1:09 have to help me coach me show me how to
1:07 – 1:12 do this but here’s the question that I
1:09 – 1:14 guess I think is relevant to skeptical
1:12 – 1:16 and I want to ask people and I want to
1:14 – 1:19 find the right way to ask it but I want
1:16 – 1:23 to tune in to the first experience
1:19 – 1:27 people have with knowing in kind of a
1:23 – 1:30 sciency logic reason standpoint and how
1:27 – 1:34 that can be transformative and also how
1:30 – 1:37 knowing from a spiritual if you will
1:34 – 1:39 standpoint and how that can be profound
1:37 – 1:42 but maybe I’m just stretching it out
1:39 – 1:45 there it doesn’t have the simplicity in
1:42 – 1:48 the punch I think not being a scientist
1:45 – 1:50 that one maybe we would because I think
1:48 – 1:53 I know how I’m gonna answer it but maybe
1:50 – 1:58 that needs to be rephrased too like when
1:53 – 2:02 did you first realize that we can learn
1:58 – 2:03 things via empiricism or reasoning like
2:02 – 2:06 when was your first like oh well I can
2:03 – 2:09 actually do a thing and learn something
2:06 – 2:12 as a result of it and I guess for me
2:09 – 2:13 that when we have a small crustacean in
2:12 – 2:15 Australia called
2:13 – 2:18 yeah be and it’s basically a small
2:15 – 2:21 freshwater kind like mini Lobster and as
2:18 – 2:23 a child I think because I had I still
2:21 – 2:25 have rural cousins and they had them in
2:23 – 2:27 their dams and we had a couple of them
2:25 – 2:30 that I sort of kept as pets for a while
2:27 – 2:32 so as a kid maybe about five I suddenly
2:30 – 2:35 realized that you could I was aware
2:32 – 2:36 looking into this kind of fishbowl with
2:35 – 2:39 these things and I could feed them
2:36 – 2:41 certain stuff and keep them alive at
2:39 – 2:43 different temperatures and have them
2:41 – 2:48 grow that there was a sequence of things
2:43 – 2:50 that I could do to observe an organism
2:48 – 2:52 and the other one at about 12 or 13 I
2:50 – 2:53 went to science the word to do with like
2:52 – 2:55 looking at peripheral vision
2:53 – 2:58 and that turned out to be a kind of hot
2:55 – 3:01 because it was it was funded by a
2:58 – 3:03 chemical company well a hydrocarbon
3:01 – 3:06 company and they funded this sort of
3:03 – 3:08 statewide competition for people to like
3:06 – 3:10 design science experiments and the
3:08 – 3:12 winners got this really bizarre prize
3:10 – 3:14 which was he got to spend a three-day
3:12 – 3:17 weekend and essentially like a youth
3:14 – 3:19 camp where you would you visited a
3:17 – 3:21 nuclear facility and the games that we
3:19 – 3:23 would play had reps from the company
3:21 – 3:27 there and they were asking questions
3:23 – 3:28 like who would you invite to out of
3:27 – 3:30 anyone in history here would you invite
3:28 – 3:33 to dinner and like getting people to
3:30 – 3:35 test like different little bottle rocket
3:33 – 3:38 stuff and I’m like you guys are actually
3:35 – 3:40 I who might actually want to pay for
3:38 – 3:41 going through university and I kind of
3:40 – 3:43 worked that out at about twelve and
3:41 – 3:45 misbehaved so they didn’t pay for my
3:43 – 3:47 University but I might this is odd I
3:45 – 3:49 just I just did a little science
3:47 – 3:52 experiment at school and all of a sudden
3:49 – 3:54 I have to spend three days with a oil
3:52 – 3:56 company executives having him ask weird
3:54 – 3:58 questions so those are the two from a
3:56 – 4:01 science perspective but it the one that
3:58 – 4:03 sticks with me is the idea that you can
4:01 – 4:06 there’s a body of knowledge that you can
4:03 – 4:08 apply to keep an out an animal or
4:06 – 4:10 whatever alive the spiritual one is
4:08 – 4:12 easier and it’s I guess it’s stretches
4:10 – 4:13 spiritual I think this want to be good
4:12 – 4:16 this is a good question to ask people
4:13 – 4:19 because mine would have been sleep
4:16 – 4:21 paralysis hag attacks which I would have
4:19 – 4:24 had I’ve had since I was about four so
4:21 – 4:26 it unbidden entity contact some of which
4:24 – 4:28 may or may not have been a screen memory
4:26 – 4:30 we’re two things but I was a kid that
4:28 – 4:34 that happened to and so my first
4:30 – 4:37 spiritual experience was not that
4:34 – 4:38 pleasant frankly and I had a sequence of
4:37 – 4:40 them and the science one I think if
4:38 – 4:42 maybe if we talk about it is when did
4:40 – 4:45 you first realize you can use reason or
4:42 – 4:47 you can reason out how we can know
4:45 – 4:49 things about the world but those are my
4:47 – 4:51 two answers I like it I like this is a
4:49 – 4:54 very skeptical double question to start
4:51 – 4:56 with I really like the way you kind of
4:54 – 4:59 are moving that and it is because
4:56 – 5:01 science part throws people and I like
4:59 – 5:03 the way you just kind of recast it there
5:01 – 5:04 at the end because I think that is the
5:03 – 5:09 experience that I’m trying to tap into
5:04 – 5:13 is that that idea that I can through
5:09 – 5:15 reason have some control over things
5:13 – 5:17 even if it’s just knowing and
5:15 – 5:19 extrapolating from that but I could know
5:17 – 5:22 other things you know I mean it’s kind
5:19 – 5:25 of like the first launching point to
5:22 – 5:26 knowing more and yeah I think the
5:25 – 5:29 spiritual thing is kind of interesting
5:26 – 5:32 too because I’ve always had a very
5:29 – 5:35 frightful kind of first experience that
5:32 – 5:37 is kind of like a sleep paralysis thing
5:35 – 5:40 but it was kind of this I forget the
5:37 – 5:43 term for it but it’s like this when you
5:40 – 5:45 feel your body is misshapen you know
5:43 – 5:47 kind of like really in extreme
5:45 – 5:49 exaggerated kind of ways and I remember
5:47 – 5:51 experiencing that England whoa what’s
5:49 – 5:54 going on and it really kind of freaked
5:51 – 5:57 me out when you a kid yeah yeah yes of
5:54 – 5:59 my sequence so I had classic hag attacks
5:57 – 6:01 where would be sleep paralysis might be
5:59 – 6:03 sort of slowly become aware but there
6:01 – 6:05 was an entity in the room that was
6:03 – 6:07 waiting more or less at the door until I
6:05 – 6:09 became aware of it and then it would
6:07 – 6:10 come right up close and and I wouldn’t
6:09 – 6:11 be able to move and I couldn’t open my
6:10 – 6:14 eyes and it was right there and it was
6:11 – 6:16 clearly a thing that delighted in and
6:14 – 6:17 was probably feeding off the fear but
6:16 – 6:19 the other thing that I think is
6:17 – 6:22 potentially a scream memory has a body
6:19 – 6:24 shape changed to it it starts off as
6:22 – 6:27 sleep paralysis but I would get
6:24 – 6:31 microscopically small to the point where
6:27 – 6:33 the fabric of the bed sheets were thick
6:31 – 6:36 as skip wrote that was it there would be
6:33 – 6:38 I had memories of them and as a result
6:36 – 6:39 so hypodermic needles became huge and I
6:38 – 6:41 had a vision of
6:39 – 6:43 an experience of them really large
6:41 – 6:45 needles being near me and then also a
6:43 – 6:49 Romulan Daddario dex class for the Nerds
6:45 – 6:52 out there warbird as a thing that was
6:49 – 6:55 there and this is ou and and a figure
6:52 – 6:57 that had a beat ped so this quite
6:55 – 6:58 clearly looks like some sort of screen
6:57 – 7:01 memory of a thing but it’s interesting
6:58 – 7:03 you mention the body shape change
7:01 – 7:05 because I knew this particular one was
7:03 – 7:07 coming on because I’d still sleep
7:05 – 7:10 paralysis but my impression was a sure
7:07 – 7:13 to microscopic size so you still have
7:10 – 7:17 sleep paralysis huh no I haven’t not
7:13 – 7:19 since actually not magic but I have so
7:17 – 7:22 they all kind of went away at about 13
7:19 – 7:24 and it’s the thing about however they
7:22 – 7:26 work the thing about simple house
7:24 – 7:27 protection and and sort of bedroom
7:26 – 7:29 protection stuff that you find
7:27 – 7:31 everywhere around the world is that they
7:29 – 7:34 really do work and you really don’t need
7:31 – 7:35 any skill in it like you because I was a
7:34 – 7:40 kid and I’m reading out of these you
7:35 – 7:42 know wicker books and some sage in you
7:40 – 7:44 know some salt around and yeah and you
7:42 – 7:47 and and I don’t know what to tell you it
7:44 – 7:49 works which rather suggests it however
7:47 – 7:51 we you know use these terms or define
7:49 – 7:56 them and a lot of whatever is going on
7:51 – 7:58 is mind right but yeah it gave it up for
7:56 – 8:00 me that’s one way to interpret it I
7:58 – 8:04 think that’s really that’s really
8:00 – 8:07 interesting and maybe that leads us into
8:04 – 8:10 kind of how I framed up our little talk
8:07 – 8:12 today because I heard you’ve done so
8:10 – 8:16 many awesome interviews but one that you
8:12 – 8:18 did recently was with our friend over at
8:16 – 8:21 forum berry Alice al and what I really
8:18 – 8:24 liked about his interview is he went
8:21 – 8:27 back to the starships book which i think
8:24 – 8:29 is as much as it is appreciated by folks
8:27 – 8:32 I think it’s underappreciated and I
8:29 – 8:35 think it had a couple of interesting
8:32 – 8:37 little guideposts that I still follow
8:35 – 8:39 and I find myself quoting all the time
8:37 – 8:43 I’m skeptical and one is this idea of
8:39 – 8:46 the data versus the interpretation of
8:43 – 8:51 the data and it’s a rather a simple idea
8:46 – 8:52 with profound application that winds up
8:51 – 8:54 being
8:52 – 8:57 in so many more places than we usually
8:54 – 8:58 talk about it but I just explained to
8:57 – 9:00 people I was like the how you talked
8:58 – 9:02 about in the dig because we can really
9:00 – 9:05 understand the person who’s digging it’s
9:02 – 9:08 not the person but go ahead and just
9:05 – 9:10 explain so one of the things Nassim
9:08 – 9:13 Taleb said in his most recent book that
9:10 – 9:15 i really really liked is you don’t ask
9:13 – 9:18 the carpenter who built the roulette
9:15 – 9:21 wheel for gambling advice because it’s
9:18 – 9:23 not you they might have domain expertise
9:21 – 9:25 over here but that’s not necessarily a
9:23 – 9:27 thing that doesn’t imply that they have
9:25 – 9:30 domain expertise in something that
9:27 – 9:32 happens to be separate or even adjacent
9:30 – 9:33 so when you when you’re talking about it
9:32 – 9:36 from an archaeological perspective
9:33 – 9:40 absolutely there is a skillset involved
9:36 – 9:41 in digging and cataloging and and and
9:40 – 9:43 doing the carbon 14 tests and all the
9:41 – 9:47 other stuff that goes with actually
9:43 – 9:50 generating data from a archaeological
9:47 – 9:52 project what how we interpret that data
9:50 – 9:54 is a completely separate skill set it is
9:52 – 9:56 its philosophical I mean you can certain
9:54 – 9:58 you might actually be good at both but
9:56 – 9:59 it doesn’t necessarily follow that you
9:58 – 10:01 would be another example are used in
9:59 – 10:02 chaos protocols which I like is a
10:01 – 10:04 dentist might be good at making money
10:02 – 10:06 but it doesn’t necessarily follow that
10:04 – 10:09 he or she would be good at keeping money
10:06 – 10:11 it is a different skill to generate
10:09 – 10:13 money and and to invest it and we we
10:11 – 10:14 very often conflate these things and the
10:13 – 10:16 when it comes to the kind of stuff that
10:14 – 10:19 we talk about on our respective shows
10:16 – 10:21 we’re both I mean I my previous job was
10:19 – 10:24 global data director it’s literally in
10:21 – 10:25 my title so I rather like data and I
10:24 – 10:27 rather like interpreting it and I’ve
10:25 – 10:31 spent a lot of time thinking with how
10:27 – 10:34 data are generated and at what
10:31 – 10:37 interpretive modes are the most useful
10:34 – 10:41 and who has good ones and and so on so I
10:37 – 10:42 really like and I think if you focus on
10:41 – 10:45 this it does allow you to swim in some
10:42 – 10:47 stranger waters this is a very Chaos
10:45 – 10:48 magic perspective I suppose it allows
10:47 – 10:51 you to swim in some really strange
10:48 – 10:52 waters because and there are no data
10:51 – 10:56 that aren’t irrelevant
10:52 – 10:58 it’s just how you manage the kind of in
10:56 – 11:00 and out and who you listen to and
10:58 – 11:02 including yourself in that in terms of
11:00 – 11:03 interpretation and data
11:02 – 11:08 so on and I think it’s a really good
11:03 – 11:09 yardstick for digging into topic areas
11:08 – 11:11 that are I mean you’ve got the ancient
11:09 – 11:13 aliens picture on the screen here
11:11 – 11:16 digging into topic areas that might be
11:13 – 11:18 kind of that low quality if you will but
11:16 – 11:20 there is still quality in there there
11:18 – 11:22 are still good data and and it’s looking
11:20 – 11:24 at where whether that interpretation
11:22 – 11:27 that comes from say the ancient aliens
11:24 – 11:29 program is is the best one for looking
11:27 – 11:32 at the anomalies that we do in fact find
11:29 – 11:35 in history and probably not at least as
11:32 – 11:36 described dementia you know let’s talk
11:35 – 11:39 about that for a minute
11:36 – 11:42 I think ancient aliens is a phenomenal
11:39 – 11:44 show and I think if we’re just to apply
11:42 – 11:47 the fair standard across the board in
11:44 – 11:48 terms of how academia is dealing with
11:47 – 11:51 the data versus how they’re dealing with
11:48 – 11:53 the data to me they’re their heads and
11:51 – 11:54 shoulders above no matter how poorly
11:53 – 11:57 they do it they’re so far ahead you know
11:54 – 11:60 we did the interview together with John
11:57 – 12:01 Brandenburg and I think you did it and
11:60 – 12:03 we broadcast on skeptic oh he’s on there
12:01 – 12:05 all the time and he’s brilliant I’m
12:03 – 12:07 constantly watching him on there and I’m
12:05 – 12:08 on what wow this is super insightful and
12:07 – 12:11 not everyone they have on there is just
12:08 – 12:14 a zest exactly right yeah and but back
12:11 – 12:16 to your point I think you know the
12:14 – 12:19 tricky thing the the dirty little secret
12:16 – 12:23 about the data versus interpretation in
12:19 – 12:25 my experience is therein lies the the
12:23 – 12:28 problem is the never-ending
12:25 – 12:31 interpretation filtering there is no
12:28 – 12:33 endpoint really into how far it can be
12:31 – 12:36 interpreted so it’s almost like one of
12:33 – 12:40 those axioms that we can never you know
12:36 – 12:42 get past because we’re constant that we
12:40 – 12:44 are always interpreting and the
12:42 – 12:48 interpretation is always open to change
12:44 – 12:51 given when we find how those filters
12:48 – 12:54 need to be changed so why don’t you like
12:51 – 12:58 18 aliens it’s not it’s not that I don’t
12:54 – 12:60 like it I think you have when you have a
12:58 – 13:03 hammer everything looks like a nail
12:60 – 13:06 and so bouncing up and down the
13:03 – 13:09 historical record looking for buildings
13:06 – 13:11 that are impressive and saying aliens
13:09 – 13:13 must have done that whether it’s India
13:11 – 13:15 in the 1400s or whether it’s gobekli
13:13 – 13:18 tepe or whether it’s the Maya
13:15 – 13:23 what have you is insufficiently nuanced
13:18 – 13:26 to take the discussion or the analysis
13:23 – 13:29 or the interpretation to that next level
13:26 – 13:30 now my background is in I have a
13:29 – 13:33 background in in multi-channel
13:30 – 13:35 television so X Discovery Channel and
13:33 – 13:36 one of the problems is whether the
13:35 – 13:39 problems with multi-channel from a
13:36 – 13:41 commercial perspective is they don’t
13:39 – 13:43 have very they aim for evergreen
13:41 – 13:45 programs so they aim to build a program
13:43 – 13:47 that is the same every time and is
13:45 – 13:49 popular and when I was at Discovery
13:47 – 13:50 Channel it was Deadliest Catch because
13:49 – 13:52 it doesn’t change every season it’s a
13:50 – 13:55 bunch of guys on a boat with big waves
13:52 – 13:57 and people loved it and and the trouble
13:55 – 14:01 with a long-running program like ancient
13:57 – 14:02 aliens is exactly that the majority of
14:01 – 14:05 the the money that a multi-channel
14:02 – 14:07 broadcaster makes is in long-running
14:05 – 14:09 programs that they can sell to other
14:07 – 14:11 networks and so on right so ancient
14:09 – 14:13 aliens is a victim of its own success
14:11 – 14:16 which is it can’t ever change because
14:13 – 14:18 it’s hit a formula that allows people to
14:16 – 14:20 watch it and unfortunately that is where
14:18 – 14:22 you get into variable levels of quality
14:20 – 14:24 because yes dr. Brandenburg’s amazing
14:22 – 14:25 I would suggest instead that people
14:24 – 14:29 maybe read his book
14:25 – 14:30 and get like some some pure John because
14:29 – 14:33 I have friends who are who’ve either
14:30 – 14:35 beam on it or turned down being on it or
14:33 – 14:36 I’ve been on it going I regret that I’m
14:35 – 14:38 not going to do that again and it’s
14:36 – 14:40 largely because you sort of sit in front
14:38 – 14:42 of a blue screen and you kind of have to
14:40 – 14:44 they’ll arrange the question so you say
14:42 – 14:47 a thing and get a soundbite then they’ll
14:44 – 14:50 kind of sequence so it’s you know it’s
14:47 – 14:53 an ambitious and obviously it’s a very
14:50 – 14:54 fascinating and valid area to cover it’s
14:53 – 14:58 just where they’re a long-running
14:54 – 15:00 multi-channel program can deliver
14:58 – 15:05 sufficient quality over time and I don’t
15:00 – 15:07 think it can is why okay I want to move
15:05 – 15:09 on because I have so many other things I
15:07 – 15:14 want to talk to you about but I will not
15:09 – 15:17 move on I will persist one thing that I
15:14 – 15:21 guess I’d push back on is your first
15:17 – 15:24 point I think the nail that they’re
15:21 – 15:28 pounding on is the correct nail and
15:24 – 15:28 given the mountain that they’re they’re
15:28 – 15:32 trying to
15:28 – 15:33 I’m the the predominant view that
15:32 – 15:35 they’re up against
15:33 – 15:37 and through throughout academia just and
15:35 – 15:38 it’s so pervasive that this couldn’t
15:37 – 15:41 possibly be true and especially
15:38 – 15:44 concerning how long running the show is
15:41 – 15:46 yes that we do need an alternative
15:44 – 15:49 explanation for why the pyramids look
15:46 – 15:53 the same as the pyramids over in Central
15:49 – 15:55 America into the larger question is why
15:53 – 15:57 do keep people look up to the sky you
15:55 – 15:60 know why is there their instinct but I
15:57 – 16:01 do the Dogon tell us that you know that
15:60 – 16:03 hey they just tell you straight up yeah
16:01 – 16:05 we all haven’t any contact with the
16:03 – 16:08 outside world because the Syrians came
16:05 – 16:09 down harder many hundreds thousands of
16:08 – 16:12 years ago and told us were from the star
16:09 – 16:15 people I mean to me it’s almost like
16:12 – 16:18 they they have to pound on the same nail
16:15 – 16:20 because it does seem to be the best nail
16:18 – 16:23 at the moment it’s the Occam’s razor
16:20 – 16:27 kind of thing it’s the simplest most
16:23 – 16:29 parsimonious answer to the question of
16:27 – 16:34 what was the inspiration for these
16:29 – 16:38 ancient cultures to look up into be
16:34 – 16:41 fascinated with the Stars and star gods
16:38 – 16:44 and all the rest of that I so I’d kind
16:41 – 16:48 of say that and I’d also defend the show
16:44 – 16:49 in that Deadliest Catch yes for a while
16:48 – 16:53 but if you look at what the show has
16:49 – 16:55 done recently in the last couple years I
16:53 – 16:57 got to take my hat off to him I think
16:55 – 16:60 they’ve done a fantastic job their show
16:57 – 17:02 on AI and on advanced technologies I
16:60 – 17:05 thought was fantastic I think their
17:02 – 17:07 shows where our buddy there has gone out
17:05 – 17:11 on the road what’s his name zu colas or
17:07 – 17:14 George George yet George are my Greek
17:11 – 17:17 compadre there you know I think his is
17:14 – 17:18 it’s very very great you know you’re
17:17 – 17:20 getting him out there on the road
17:18 – 17:22 talking to people it’s no longer the
17:20 – 17:25 blue-screen he’s down feet on the ground
17:22 – 17:27 kind of doing stuff we never would have
17:25 – 17:31 imagined I don’t think that we would
17:27 – 17:36 have this kind of mainstreaming of these
17:31 – 17:39 ideas so um I’m a big cheerleader go go
17:36 – 17:44 go you know well
17:39 – 17:45 fair enough okay I’m not I did write a
17:44 – 17:48 whole book about it I don’t think it’s
17:45 – 17:52 the best explanation we shall we shall
17:48 – 17:56 we shall return to that because you know
17:52 – 17:59 best explanation well let’s let’s stop
17:56 – 18:04 right there what is a better explanation
17:59 – 18:07 today given the data we have and you
18:04 – 18:10 can’t default to Jacques Vallee because
18:07 – 18:12 that’s not really an explanation it’s
18:10 – 18:17 just a call to broaden the
18:12 – 18:18 interpretation possibilities so that
18:17 – 18:22 when you talk about the similarity
18:18 – 18:23 between pyramids if you include good and
18:22 – 18:27 Padang in that which is in the book and
18:23 – 18:32 I think you should you’re dealing with a
18:27 – 18:33 pyramid building project that is that
18:32 – 18:36 happened multiple times over about
18:33 – 18:38 between 15 and 20 thousand years so if
18:36 – 18:41 they’re the inspiration for it how many
18:38 – 18:45 times did they come down and where are
18:41 – 18:49 they there is a better there is there
18:45 – 18:53 has to be a better understanding of what
18:49 – 18:56 human interaction with off-planet is
18:53 – 18:58 that allows for these kind of ideas to
18:56 – 19:02 occur over time because they absolutely
18:58 – 19:04 do and it doesn’t necessarily require
19:02 – 19:06 physical Syrians
19:04 – 19:09 landing in West Africa and talking to
19:06 – 19:11 the Dogon when we have no evidence of
19:09 – 19:16 that but we do absolutely have evidence
19:11 – 19:20 for telepathy and you know distant like
19:16 – 19:22 nonverbal communication when we do these
19:20 – 19:25 kind of things so the Syrians don’t
19:22 – 19:26 actually need to get here to tell us
19:25 – 19:28 this stuff and what if it’s the actual
19:26 – 19:31 stars themselves like this is coming
19:28 – 19:32 back to dr. Sheldrake right when he if
19:31 – 19:34 he asked like the implications which
19:32 – 19:36 neither is like this but it’s it’s a
19:34 – 19:37 great way of describing it the
19:36 – 19:39 implications of Pam psychism is if the
19:37 – 19:41 Sun has some form of consciousness now
19:39 – 19:44 neither is appendicitis for very good
19:41 – 19:46 reasons but that’s what I mean like
19:44 – 19:48 rather than having something for which
19:46 – 19:51 we have no evidence we do have evidence
19:48 – 19:52 for these Psychopaths –’tis and it
19:51 – 19:54 seems like that’s a better place
19:52 – 19:55 to start with it was sort of the whole
19:54 – 19:59 point of the book rather than having
19:55 – 20:03 aliens keeps showing up that’s I just
19:59 – 20:06 wonder if I agreed like this is the cool
20:03 – 20:07 thing about talking with you and having
20:06 – 20:09 this kind of exchange because I feel
20:07 – 20:11 like we can immediately go to the kind
20:09 – 20:13 of what I was called a level 3 kind of
20:11 – 20:14 thing beyond you know oh this can’t
20:13 – 20:16 possibly be true
20:14 – 20:19 beyond the beat back at the skeptics
20:16 – 20:22 beyond oh yes tell me please tell me the
20:19 – 20:25 answer and just hash out you know the
20:22 – 20:27 real disagreements and that de screamin
20:25 – 20:29 that’s really what we’re talking about
20:27 – 20:31 so I interviewed guy just recently a
20:29 – 20:33 fantastic interview because I love when
20:31 – 20:34 these interviews going totally different
20:33 – 20:37 directions than I anticipated
20:34 – 20:40 so the guy’s name is Steve Briggs and I
20:37 – 20:42 know him through my friend Rick art read
20:40 – 20:44 but at the gas pump because they both
20:42 – 20:47 for 20 years were following around
20:44 – 20:50 Maharishi and doing whatever he said in
20:47 – 20:51 the TM movement and for 20 years this
20:50 – 20:55 guy was training some of the top
20:51 – 20:57 corporate leaders in India on
20:55 – 20:58 Transcendental Meditation and then
20:57 – 21:00 meditation techniques in his highly
20:58 – 21:02 advanced and he’s meditating for seven
21:00 – 21:03 eight hours a day and except when he
21:02 – 21:05 goes on retreats and then he’s at
21:03 – 21:06 meditating for 20 hours a day for long
21:05 – 21:08 periods of time and he’s traveling
21:06 – 21:10 through India and he’s meeting these
21:08 – 21:14 unbelievable sages and mystics and he
21:10 – 21:15 meets one and the guy says his he
21:14 – 21:19 describes him as just beautiful
21:15 – 21:20 beautiful man like like features are
21:19 – 21:22 beautiful but he also has this glow
21:20 – 21:24 about him and he goes to talk to this
21:22 – 21:27 guy and the guy says yeah you know I’m
21:24 – 21:29 like 105 thousand years old or whatever
21:27 – 21:31 the hell these crazy Indian stories are
21:29 – 21:34 but then he gives them some really
21:31 – 21:35 practical advice he says look here’s
21:34 – 21:36 what you can do to improve your
21:35 – 21:38 meditation practice and you’ve already
21:36 – 21:40 been meditating for 20 years but you’re
21:38 – 21:42 so pretty far along but you can just do
21:40 – 21:45 these simple things and the next thing
21:42 – 21:47 he does is write what you were saying he
21:45 – 21:50 says and here’s how you can astral
21:47 – 21:54 travel an astral travel better in here
21:50 – 21:58 how you can gather your internal
21:54 – 22:01 energies and travel so he travels and he
21:58 – 22:04 travels to Syria to the Syrian star
22:01 – 22:06 system and he meets so this is the
22:04 – 22:06 interview right so I’m hearing this guy
22:06 – 22:10 and first let me
22:06 – 22:13 say the this guy is kind of like a very
22:10 – 22:16 conventional guy in a lot of ways NBA
22:13 – 22:19 tennis X you know played tennis at a
22:16 – 22:21 national level in college threw for a
22:19 – 22:24 scholarship that’s when he had his first
22:21 – 22:27 spiritual slash psychic experience was
22:24 – 22:28 on the tennis court when you know it’s
22:27 – 22:32 kind of the Michael Jordan effect
22:28 – 22:34 everything slows down and I can see the
22:32 – 22:36 tennis ball boom boom boom and he’s like
22:34 – 22:37 14 years old when this happens and he
22:36 – 22:40 wins the match and he’s like nationally
22:37 – 22:41 ranked and all this stuff so again there
22:40 – 22:43 are all these elements to the story that
22:41 – 22:46 tie us to a reality that we can all
22:43 – 22:48 accept and now he’s gonna tell you he
22:46 – 22:51 travels to the Syrian star system and
22:48 – 22:51 now the story gets even Wilder because
22:51 – 22:53 he said they have all these different
22:51 – 22:55 planets they all these different
22:53 – 22:58 technologies and his explanation just to
22:55 – 23:04 throw this on the table for the
22:58 – 23:07 starships for the UFOs is they’re like
23:04 – 23:11 why not yeah we could we can and do show
23:07 – 23:13 up psychically but it’s fun we show up
23:11 – 23:15 in starships sometimes too and that’s
23:13 – 23:17 the way we do it and why wouldn’t we do
23:15 – 23:20 it and we like interacting and you know
23:17 – 23:23 the whole thing so it’s trippy but it’s
23:20 – 23:26 like in another way I’ve thought about
23:23 – 23:32 that many times since it’s like that’s a
23:26 – 23:34 very fucking reason I love it I’m here
23:32 – 23:37 for it I think that’s great like that’s
23:34 – 23:40 that’s not that far from what I kind of
23:37 – 23:43 think is going on absolutely which is
23:40 – 23:46 you’re right you’re right that is not
23:43 – 23:48 contradictory to what you’re saying it’s
23:46 – 23:50 again taking the interpretation part of
23:48 – 23:52 the formula and saying you know we’re
23:50 – 23:53 talking about an interpretation well we
23:52 – 23:55 can really kind of wad that up into a
23:53 – 23:57 ball and throw it into a wastebasket too
23:55 – 23:59 because all bets are off we gotta turbit
23:57 – 24:01 it just about every way you could
23:59 – 24:02 imagine and and this guy I haven’t
24:01 – 24:04 listened to that show I’ve been you know
24:02 – 24:09 as you can see I’ve been out and about
24:04 – 24:11 I’m fleeing bush fires but I I don’t see
24:09 – 24:14 what he described isn’t that far from
24:11 – 24:15 what I just mean in starships about what
24:14 – 24:18 I actually think is going on like in the
24:15 – 24:20 universe like that that level of purpose
24:18 – 24:23 of interaction
24:20 – 24:25 is like why the fuck not like that
24:23 – 24:27 relationality I think is what’s going on
24:25 – 24:29 I think that’s what’s going on spirits
24:27 – 24:30 aliens whatever you want to call it I
24:29 – 24:33 think it’s just if you’ve ever been
24:30 – 24:35 scuba diving and you see different you
24:33 – 24:36 know fish species and other organisms
24:35 – 24:38 that are in there they’re all just kind
24:36 – 24:40 of like checking each other out like
24:38 – 24:42 what else is there to do like we exist
24:40 – 24:46 let’s interact and I think that is good
24:42 – 24:48 you know that is somewhat of a lead-in
24:46 – 24:53 to the next topic that I was going to
24:48 – 24:56 toss on the proverbial table being at
24:53 – 24:59 the PowerPoint screen here because it is
24:56 – 25:02 a perfect lead-in isn’t it to magic and
24:59 – 25:04 to how we might understand the extended
25:02 – 25:05 consciousness realms and what’s going on
25:04 – 25:08 there because there’s all this confusion
25:05 – 25:10 and like you and I were talking but sit
25:08 – 25:12 on air or was it not wonder saying you
25:10 – 25:14 know throw a little sage or burn a
25:12 – 25:15 little sage and throw a little salt on
25:14 – 25:18 the ground and I don’t know it just
25:15 – 25:21 seems to work over and over again and
25:18 – 25:23 you know why not and and then how far do
25:21 – 25:26 you want to go with the why not thing
25:23 – 25:28 but the larger question if I could pull
25:26 – 25:32 back without totally confusing everyone
25:28 – 25:37 as I want to apply this data versus
25:32 – 25:40 interpretation meme to magic because I
25:37 – 25:43 think the challenge is as I was just
25:40 – 25:47 kind of stumbling through is we get so
25:43 – 25:49 many different sources of data depending
25:47 – 25:51 on where we look for magic whether we
25:49 – 25:54 look in Christianity which is a point
25:51 – 25:57 that you’ve always made I think quite
25:54 – 25:59 eloquently and in a way that kind of
25:57 – 26:01 jolts people into a realization that
25:59 – 26:05 they have to have this broader
26:01 – 26:07 understanding at least of what our
26:05 – 26:09 connection to this extended
26:07 – 26:14 consciousness magic realm is but then
26:09 – 26:17 let me step back and any initial
26:14 – 26:23 thoughts on data interpretation as it
26:17 – 26:24 applies to magic its definition was I’ve
26:23 – 26:26 always wanted to ask you what your
26:24 – 26:31 definition of an extended consciousness
26:26 – 26:34 is first start it’s yes bingo no I you
26:31 – 26:37 may roll over and play dead
26:34 – 26:39 hmm because I think that is an
26:37 – 26:41 indication and the other one is and you
26:39 – 26:44 learn this like talking about dr. hunter
26:41 – 26:46 for instance mutual friend Jack hunter
26:44 – 26:49 when you look at some of the things that
26:46 – 26:52 are available like separating data and
26:49 – 26:53 interpretation or theory and practice is
26:52 – 26:55 itself a practice
26:53 – 26:57 so what disciplines like anthropology
26:55 – 27:01 have sort of worked out over the last
26:57 – 27:03 thirty years is that even if we try to
27:01 – 27:05 split it as experiment and then results
27:03 – 27:08 or data generation and interpretation as
27:05 – 27:11 two separate things they are in fact one
27:08 – 27:15 continuous process they are in fact a
27:11 – 27:17 behavior that Western is coming out of
27:15 – 27:19 an empirical mindset do and when we want
27:17 – 27:21 to start doing comparison and this is
27:19 – 27:23 what the anthropologists did we dropped
27:21 – 27:25 down to that level and realize we are a
27:23 – 27:28 we are a kind of continuously embodying
27:25 – 27:30 or from an embodiment or bodied
27:28 – 27:34 perspective this is how we organize the
27:30 – 27:39 world and it’s at that level that we
27:34 – 27:40 approach non-empirical cultures because
27:39 – 27:42 they’re kind of going along this
27:40 – 27:44 organizing and interpreting of the world
27:42 – 27:45 slits into visions of things like data
27:44 – 27:47 and interpretations well they look very
27:45 – 27:49 different if we drop if we jump up to a
27:47 – 27:51 level where we try to look at their data
27:49 – 27:52 and then interpret it we actually
27:51 – 27:55 haven’t but out of their own heads to do
27:52 – 27:58 it so an extended consciousness we need
27:55 – 27:59 to define magic we’d need to define and
27:58 – 28:02 we’d also just need to hang a lamp on
27:59 – 28:04 the fact that when we split things like
28:02 – 28:06 this and we try to look cross-culturally
28:04 – 28:09 a minute kind of jeff kraebel comparison
28:06 – 28:12 mode we have to be really careful that
28:09 – 28:16 as we do it we aren’t actually just
28:12 – 28:18 still being Cartesian as we jump into
28:16 – 28:20 non Cartesian cultures because it just
28:18 – 28:23 breaks on impact when you do it so that
28:20 – 28:26 would be where I begin with it if we
28:23 – 28:27 want to define magic I always define it
28:26 – 28:29 this way and I think it’s the kind of
28:27 – 28:32 best opening gambit it’s it’s a culture
28:29 – 28:35 specific way of describing the side
28:32 – 28:38 capacities of a human at least so
28:35 – 28:40 because the the powers that magic has is
28:38 – 28:42 conserved across culture and we have
28:40 – 28:44 them and this is the dr. Aden stuff
28:42 – 28:47 right like and we have observed them in
28:44 – 28:47 an empirical fashion to both yours in my
28:47 – 28:50 satisfaction
28:47 – 28:54 that they exist so over the last hundred
28:50 – 28:57 and twenty years how they how they
28:54 – 28:60 present and how they are experienced and
28:57 – 29:01 embodied outside of our culture is very
28:60 – 29:03 different around the world but that’s
29:01 – 29:06 that’s kind of what I mean like we’re
29:03 – 29:08 it’s so fraught on the first it’s
29:06 – 29:10 actually easy it’s actually a really
29:08 – 29:12 easy step to get okay so we’re gonna
29:10 – 29:13 jump down here I get that and then all
29:12 – 29:14 of a sudden leads these kind of
29:13 – 29:16 cross-cultural
29:14 – 29:20 relational activities like the Syrians
29:16 – 29:23 and the humans just why not for the fuck
29:20 – 29:27 of it become available to us in a way
29:23 – 29:29 that he’s an extractive or damaging so
29:27 – 29:31 it’s actually really really easy but
29:29 – 29:33 it’s so easy that we sometimes miss it
29:31 – 29:35 and that’s what I really really like
29:33 – 29:37 about what’s happened in anthropology in
29:35 – 29:41 the last couple decades that they’ve had
29:37 – 29:43 they had further to go in in getting
29:41 – 29:44 that right because Anthropologie’s of
29:43 – 29:47 course the disappointment has literal
29:44 – 29:49 skeletons in its closet in in Amsterdam
29:47 – 29:51 and London and Chicago that they have to
29:49 – 29:52 kind of sheepishly give back to like the
29:51 – 29:54 Mallory and the other originals and
29:52 – 29:56 whatever so they have actual skeletons
29:54 – 29:58 and so they’ve done a lot more that
29:56 – 29:60 soul-searching work and there are some
29:58 – 30:03 really good techniques about how we do
29:60 – 30:06 this relationality that I think have
30:03 – 30:09 tremendous use when it comes to the kind
30:06 – 30:11 of stuff we do in our shows which is
30:09 – 30:12 that what can we learn from what life
30:11 – 30:15 ways are interacting with us and what
30:12 – 30:17 does that mean for our life ways oh oh
30:15 – 30:20 so cool it’s so awesome there’s so many
30:17 – 30:22 things to pull apart there and I always
30:20 – 30:24 want to kind of jump right in with the
30:22 – 30:26 adversarial kind of point and why not
30:24 – 30:29 that’s my nature I love what you’re
30:26 – 30:32 saying on so many levels and let’s start
30:29 – 30:34 with the extended non extended so
30:32 – 30:36 spot-on but your point is super well
30:34 – 30:38 taken and if anyone missed it the idea
30:36 – 30:42 is that I think you’re trying to get
30:38 – 30:44 across is we can’t really talk about
30:42 – 30:49 extended consciousness realms without
30:44 – 30:52 defining what the consciousness realm in
30:49 – 30:55 its entirety is we can’t start putting
30:52 – 30:58 these arbitrary dividers up especially
30:55 – 31:00 when those dividers wind up being brick
30:58 – 31:01 walls that are 20 feet high that no one
31:00 – 31:02 is allowed
31:01 – 31:05 to jump over unless they have certain
31:02 – 31:07 academic credentials or some other
31:05 – 31:11 credential like you’re the super shaman
31:07 – 31:13 that where is the beaded feathered cap
31:11 – 31:14 on then you can jump over but no one
31:13 – 31:17 else can and neither one of us kind of
31:14 – 31:20 like those kind of limitations I would
31:17 – 31:23 suggest that I punch back a little bit
31:20 – 31:28 that the the definition that you give of
31:23 – 31:30 the magic has the same limitations when
31:28 – 31:32 we talk about psyche psyche ape
31:30 – 31:34 abilities because in the same way let me
31:32 – 31:37 start defining what is Sai and we start
31:34 – 31:40 differentiating it from our everyday
31:37 – 31:43 experience in some ways that makes sense
31:40 – 31:45 and we can understand it but in other
31:43 – 31:47 very ordinary ways we come to understand
31:45 – 31:50 that there is no separation so
31:47 – 31:52 absolutely that’s absolutely correct so
31:50 – 31:54 I start with that as a definition
31:52 – 31:56 because it’s like landing coordinates to
31:54 – 31:59 to situate the discussion if you
31:56 – 32:01 actually look at say Eduardo cones work
31:59 – 32:05 in a marvelous book called how first
32:01 – 32:07 thing we need to situate that we need to
32:05 – 32:09 shock ourselves and it’s just fade in
32:07 – 32:11 there it’s a difference between extended
32:09 – 32:13 a nun extended I know that you don’t
32:11 – 32:16 actually have when you stop to think
32:13 – 32:19 about it a model that allows for some
32:16 – 32:20 sort of artificial divide between
32:19 – 32:22 consciousness is experienced when you’re
32:20 – 32:25 at the supermarket and when you’re
32:22 – 32:27 astral traveling it’s it’s a it’s
32:25 – 32:30 consciousness it is what it is right so
32:27 – 32:32 if you start with this eye thing you can
32:30 – 32:35 situate yourself a going okay this is in
32:32 – 32:38 fact how far this way of being in the
32:35 – 32:41 world can sort of extend and once you go
32:38 – 32:43 to non enlightenment cultures and
32:41 – 32:45 experience their life ways and kind of
32:43 – 32:47 compare them to your own and in that
32:45 – 32:49 sort of cry per desk way you find that
32:47 – 32:51 there is no difference between the dream
32:49 – 32:55 realm and the spirit realm and and all
32:51 – 32:58 and so their model of how their flow
32:55 – 33:01 model of how reality works has a much
32:58 – 33:02 look clean is the wrong word is the
33:01 – 33:05 wrong word and you’re going to get
33:02 – 33:06 coming up that you’re gonna keep coming
33:05 – 33:09 up with the wrong word
33:06 – 33:11 and that’s one of my my concerns when we
33:09 – 33:12 look at you know I’ve thrown up on the
33:11 – 33:15 screen
33:12 – 33:17 a slide from mom I just favorite movies
33:15 – 33:18 of all time embrace of the serpent
33:17 – 33:22 because I think it captures this
33:18 – 33:26 interplay between these two different
33:22 – 33:29 magicians the one magician who is the
33:26 – 33:30 evil colonist that comes and chops
33:29 – 33:33 people’s arms off when they don’t
33:30 – 33:36 produce enough rubber but he is truly a
33:33 – 33:40 magician and his ability to wield that
33:36 – 33:44 hatchet in this most unbelievably wicked
33:40 – 33:46 way is eventually in this movie we’re
33:44 – 33:49 not sure whether that conquers or
33:46 – 33:51 defeats the magic of the shaman who I
33:49 – 33:53 thought they did an awesome job of
33:51 – 33:55 portraying as being truly lost and truly
33:53 – 33:57 challenged by his beliefs because
33:55 – 33:59 everything he thought he knew about how
33:57 – 34:01 the world works has now been called into
33:59 – 34:03 question by these guys they just come in
34:01 – 34:05 with their fucking hatchets and just
34:03 – 34:07 chop people’s arms off but at the same
34:05 – 34:11 time were introduced to this shamanic
34:07 – 34:15 way of knowing in being in the world
34:11 – 34:17 that that pulls us apart in another way
34:15 – 34:20 and let me digress into a short story
34:17 – 34:26 because I had a fascinating interview
34:20 – 34:27 with a woman who approached me on to do
34:26 – 34:29 a skeptical show and you know that is
34:27 – 34:33 when people approach you and you’re
34:29 – 34:37 always like oh yeah fantastic fantastic
34:33 – 34:40 damn it Daniel I’ll change them so so
34:37 – 34:43 you know Jan is has a book store in
34:40 – 34:46 Seattle and this Russian guy comes and
34:43 – 34:48 says hey I’ve been working with these
34:46 – 34:50 people the old Shay people the original
34:48 – 34:56 shamans in this remotest of remote area
34:50 – 34:59 of Russia and here they are and I’d love
34:56 – 35:01 to do a talk does it talk and subsequent
34:59 – 35:06 to that for the next 20 years brings
35:01 – 35:08 over these shaman leaders mainly women
35:06 – 35:12 just so happens to be but one or two men
35:08 – 35:14 and they come and so you know the the
35:12 – 35:15 way I kind of titled that the way I
35:14 – 35:18 really kind of poked Jan and she’s
35:15 – 35:20 awesome awesome researcher and woman but
35:18 – 35:22 you know where’s your fucking iPhone
35:20 – 35:24 shaman you know where’s your fucking
35:22 – 35:26 iPhone and I thought her pushback was
35:24 – 35:28 just awesome
35:26 – 35:29 – and she’s like yeah you know that’s a
35:28 – 35:31 that’s a good point
35:29 – 35:33 so they they do not have that and they
35:31 – 35:35 like coming over to Washington and being
35:33 – 35:37 able to order Chinese food and have it
35:35 – 35:40 show up at the door they think oh yeah
35:37 – 35:41 absolutely fantastic she says but I
35:40 – 35:45 still struggle with understanding how
35:41 – 35:48 when we were in a locked room and inside
35:45 – 35:51 hiding from weather elements of
35:48 – 35:54 Washington they made the wind blow all
35:51 – 35:56 the papers in the room around in a big
35:54 – 35:59 circle or how we could go out in nature
35:56 – 36:02 and they could make animals come up to
35:59 – 36:06 us just like they were in a petting zoo
36:02 – 36:08 just out of the forest so how do we how
36:06 – 36:11 do we interpret that how do I’m really
36:08 – 36:16 glad you asked because my response is I
36:11 – 36:18 think better you were correct that in
36:16 – 36:20 you know amongst a Siberian shamanic
36:18 – 36:23 culture they do not have a government
36:20 – 36:27 surveillant device that causes cancer
36:23 – 36:29 it’s made suicide lave like that so and
36:27 – 36:31 they use these devices I’ll tell you
36:29 – 36:33 mine you can even story in a minute but
36:31 – 36:35 my I guess question back to the question
36:33 – 36:40 would be how come your iPhone can’t call
36:35 – 36:43 serious yet yeah but how come it can’t
36:40 – 36:45 so like this device contacts people how
36:43 – 36:47 far can it get and how many towers does
36:45 – 36:49 it need because I can talk to serious
36:47 – 36:53 not me personally but that would be the
36:49 – 36:57 pushback and so if you situate and this
36:53 – 37:01 coming back to the idea of what level we
36:57 – 37:04 do cross-cultural comparison on and if
37:01 – 37:07 we do it in a flow model Italy which is
37:04 – 37:11 why these sort of devices can be
37:07 – 37:14 joyously absorbed into the life ways of
37:11 – 37:17 say you know non-western culture because
37:14 – 37:19 if you approach your no honor this is a
37:17 – 37:21 thing that Western culture did as it’s
37:19 – 37:23 going along then at that level you can
37:21 – 37:25 look at them and I absolutely agree the
37:23 – 37:28 sort of technology share that would
37:25 – 37:30 happen prior to shall we say the
37:28 – 37:33 Industrial Revolution may bike arguably
37:30 – 37:34 prior to the rise of cities happen like
37:33 – 37:36 we have the archaeological urban so you
37:34 – 37:39 make a better bastard or you make a
37:36 – 37:41 better bowl like that sort of thing
37:39 – 37:44 do techniques like meditation move
37:41 – 37:47 because they’re they work better and so
37:44 – 37:49 my my father grew up in New Guinea and
37:47 – 37:51 my aunt is actually New Guinean and so
37:49 – 37:55 he kind of has an understanding of where
37:51 – 37:57 a good understanding of where different
37:55 – 37:60 things from a quote-unquote Western
37:57 – 38:01 culture can be useful and helpful in
37:60 – 38:03 non-western sense so every time we
38:01 – 38:06 growing up we’d go to the islands every
38:03 – 38:07 year because he missed it and we he’d
38:06 – 38:10 sort of we’d get to Sydney and he’d go
38:07 – 38:12 into like a tourist tat store and he’d
38:10 – 38:14 buy a whole bunch of like $5 like I
38:12 – 38:16 harvest rainy t-shirts and he’d take
38:14 – 38:18 their many take hats and you take thongs
38:16 – 38:20 and we go and visit different you know
38:18 – 38:21 outlying communities and whatever and
38:20 – 38:23 nothing like a weird Christian way like
38:21 – 38:25 we were there Holiday Inn let’s be clear
38:23 – 38:27 we’re not saving anything but it’s just
38:25 – 38:29 he knew that we are in their lives and
38:27 – 38:31 we bring things and they fucking love
38:29 – 38:33 them like we would come back a couple of
38:31 – 38:35 years later and they’re still wearing
38:33 – 38:37 the shirts because they don’t they don’t
38:35 – 38:39 have them they’re not in Sydney you know
38:37 – 38:41 they don’t have this stuff and it’s a
38:39 – 38:43 really good this is fin from a policy
38:41 – 38:46 perspective something that Brazil worked
38:43 – 38:48 out not now they’re in a quite bad way
38:46 – 38:50 politically but a few decades ago when
38:48 – 38:53 it was you trying to net navigate what
38:50 – 38:56 how far at what arm’s length
38:53 – 38:58 do you quote-unquote hold native
38:56 – 38:60 Brazilians living in the Amazon because
38:58 – 39:01 if they well how racist is it to keep
38:60 – 39:03 them in a pristine state where they’re
39:01 – 39:06 all there without shoes and in
39:03 – 39:09 loincloths in an area revolt with deadly
39:06 – 39:11 snakes saying God give me some juice and
39:09 – 39:14 some shoes would be great right now and
39:11 – 39:18 I think that is when we talk about
39:14 – 39:20 technology share and and and how I don’t
39:18 – 39:22 even like you were better but like how
39:20 – 39:25 ideas that have some utility across
39:22 – 39:29 culture move the iPhone is a good
39:25 – 39:31 example but so is meditation so is the
39:29 – 39:34 use of ayahuasca for contacting spirits
39:31 – 39:36 these are things they took totally but
39:34 – 39:37 let me let me jump
39:36 – 39:39 leapfrog this a little bit because what
39:37 – 39:43 I’m really going and I can’t usually
39:39 – 39:46 jump that far ahead with folks is I’m
39:43 – 39:52 worried about interested in concerned
39:46 – 39:54 with ET and et’s ability to marshal tech
39:52 – 39:56 analogy in this forgive the term
39:54 – 39:57 extended consciousness realm but I got
39:56 – 39:59 to keep using it because people know
39:57 – 40:01 what it means as opposed to UFOs
39:59 – 40:04 diverses aerial phenomena or whatever
40:01 – 40:08 they’re going to call it so when we when
40:04 – 40:10 we hear what et is doing in terms of
40:08 – 40:13 screen memory in terms of philip
40:10 – 40:18 telepathic communication in terms of
40:13 – 40:21 long-term surveillance and potentially
40:18 – 40:24 counterfeited spiritual experiences
40:21 – 40:26 where people come back and say oh I’ve
40:24 – 40:28 had this incredible spiritual awakening
40:26 – 40:30 I’ve had this healing and another person
40:28 – 40:33 comes back goes really all’s I did is I
40:30 – 40:36 fucked by a reptilian you know it’s like
40:33 – 40:40 well where is the spiritual transfer can
40:36 – 40:45 be I guess but so when I look at that
40:40 – 40:48 that makes me look at the shamanic noble
40:45 – 40:50 savage kind of thing halo that we can do
40:48 – 40:53 that isn’t like you said arms-length
40:50 – 40:56 kind of thing might not be the right
40:53 – 40:59 approach either so I just wonder how
40:56 – 41:02 we’re supposed to figure that shit out
40:59 – 41:05 and I’m not worried about being racist
41:02 – 41:08 and I’m not worrying about fair I’m just
41:05 – 41:12 worrying about trying to understand it
41:08 – 41:14 in that favoring one over another in a
41:12 – 41:17 way that is going to cloud my ability to
41:14 – 41:20 interpret what might really be going on
41:17 – 41:24 and how much of this magic thing might
41:20 – 41:26 be linked to a technology that we don’t
41:24 – 41:29 fully understand and when we do
41:26 – 41:33 understand it you will have an app to
41:29 – 41:36 talk to the Syria well I I don’t so so
41:33 – 41:37 many things there that I think we
41:36 – 41:39 actually need to pivot more to there
41:37 – 41:41 understand we start here instead because
41:39 – 41:44 I was just up at a conference speaking
41:41 – 41:46 about UFOs and contactees and talking to
41:44 – 41:48 the Pleiadians and all that really kind
41:46 – 41:49 of like boomer stuff and I gave a
41:48 – 41:51 presentation called whether for the
41:49 – 41:53 aliens but I’ll tell you present Asian
41:51 – 41:55 was what called what if we’re the aliens
41:53 – 41:58 and it’s advanced for me to talk right
41:55 – 42:00 but I’ll tell you that I haven’t you
41:58 – 42:02 know spoken to a number of demons they
42:00 – 42:03 will fade out say yeah which are like
42:02 – 42:05 people like they think they’re talking
42:03 – 42:08 to the
42:05 – 42:11 like Federation that’s us motherfucker
42:08 – 42:14 now the argument then is in fact for
42:11 – 42:16 more magic not less because where’s your
42:14 – 42:19 fucking iPhone is the opposite when you
42:16 – 42:22 go to cultures that never lost this
42:19 – 42:24 weary extra-dimensional diplomacy
42:22 – 42:27 component with the majority of shamanic
42:24 – 42:30 practice isn’t happy healing stuff it
42:27 – 42:32 was keeping bad shit away from the
42:30 – 42:36 fucking village the techniques for
42:32 – 42:39 navigating the fact that the the spirit
42:36 – 42:41 world isn’t sometimes deceptive but it
42:39 – 42:43 is certainly never presented as as
42:41 – 42:45 factual like it what you see is never
42:43 – 42:48 what you get in the spirit world and you
42:45 – 42:50 have cultures that have millennia of
42:48 – 42:53 experience of navigating that and we
42:50 – 42:55 have an iPhone so I would argue that in
42:53 – 42:57 fact we need more of it rather than less
42:55 – 42:60 and the notion that any kind of contact
42:57 – 43:01 experience is automatically a good one
42:60 – 43:04 like oh look at me and I’ve had a
43:01 – 43:08 spiritual experience is a very Western
43:04 – 43:10 post Christian idea right visited by an
43:08 – 43:12 angel or whatever like that kind of
43:10 – 43:15 contact is quite Neoplatonic
43:12 – 43:17 the idea that oh look if something
43:15 – 43:20 happened to me I’m interacting with the
43:17 – 43:23 star but you won’t find that level of
43:20 – 43:26 optimism you will find a weariness and
43:23 – 43:30 and a hard-won cynicism in cultures that
43:26 – 43:32 just know better from more experience of
43:30 – 43:33 the spirit world and their like it might
43:32 – 43:38 be that it might be something else and
43:33 – 43:40 magic is frankly better at and I can
43:38 – 43:44 even shrink that down to Western magic
43:40 – 43:46 is better at navigating the the reality
43:44 – 43:49 that this is a deceptive and enigmatic
43:46 – 43:51 process because it has those fail-safes
43:49 – 43:54 built into it and we live in it within
43:51 – 43:56 animistic cultures when you say once we
43:54 – 43:58 learn fully what magic is about you
43:56 – 44:01 never will that you kind of have an open
43:58 – 44:04 cosmology that is hyper pragmatic
44:01 – 44:06 because you admit and understand that
44:04 – 44:08 you will never fully know what’s going
44:06 – 44:10 on but you nevertheless have to be in
44:08 – 44:12 the world and interact so like what
44:10 – 44:15 techniques what what ways of being in
44:12 – 44:17 the world kind of work in this sort of
44:15 – 44:18 getting along together way so I would oh
44:17 – 44:19 that’s all
44:18 – 44:21 problems right I mean you will
44:19 – 44:25 acknowledge it that is with the same
44:21 – 44:29 problems that you’re trying to kind of
44:25 – 44:31 get past or overcome right so no I would
44:29 – 44:33 disagree I would because you want you
44:31 – 44:36 item is amiss and ontology I’m looking
44:33 – 44:37 for an epistemology so I know that this
44:36 – 44:39 the the rise of magic is that what
44:37 – 44:42 irritated you over the last year and I’m
44:39 – 44:44 sorry to bring a bad news that it still
44:42 – 44:46 has much further to run than Dean Radin
44:44 – 44:48 but what I’m looking for is an
44:46 – 44:50 epistemology and you’re worried that it
44:48 – 44:54 will replace your ontology you’re
44:50 – 44:59 worried not totally so I I fully agree
44:54 – 45:02 with the point about you know more is
44:59 – 45:06 better in this case right so a more
45:02 – 45:10 include more expansive understanding of
45:06 – 45:12 those modalities for interacting with
45:10 – 45:14 but you know we’re always gonna be
45:12 – 45:16 struggling with words in this discussion
45:14 – 45:17 this kind of inside baseball level three
45:16 – 45:19 discussion because as soon as you start
45:17 – 45:21 talking about spirits we don’t know what
45:19 – 45:23 the fucking spirit is no more than we
45:21 – 45:25 know what consciousness is it’s all part
45:23 – 45:28 of the same blob that we’re pulling
45:25 – 45:30 apart but here I would try and circle
45:28 – 45:32 this back to my point because I’m really
45:30 – 45:35 interested in getting your your insight
45:32 – 45:37 on this because it’s fantastic but did
45:35 – 45:39 you listen to our friend Greg Carl woods
45:37 – 45:42 excellent interview with whitley
45:39 – 45:44 strieber if it was in the last month or
45:42 – 45:45 so because I’ve been traveling him in
45:44 – 45:47 Fame which phase I’m behind in
45:45 – 45:49 everything I’m afraid so I hadn’t I
45:47 – 45:51 don’t know how far back it was but it
45:49 – 45:53 was it was quite extraordinary and it
45:51 – 45:56 was extraordinary particularly at this
45:53 – 45:59 one moment when Whitley’s talking about
45:56 – 46:02 being I don’t want to say abducted cuz
45:59 – 46:05 he wasn’t he was voluntarily admitted by
46:02 – 46:09 his parents in this special youth
46:05 – 46:11 program and at an Air Force Base in San
46:09 – 46:15 Antonio where these kids were subjected
46:11 – 46:18 to just a horrible kind of a skinner
46:15 – 46:20 cage you know you walk in to the to the
46:18 – 46:23 facility and these kids did and just to
46:20 – 46:24 digress slightly streamer says I can
46:23 – 46:27 hardly believe that this happened except
46:24 – 46:28 I found two other boys who were with me
46:27 – 46:30 and one boy who
46:28 – 46:32 wasn’t because his parents when they
46:30 – 46:34 came and told them about the special
46:32 – 46:37 program for gifted children in the
46:34 – 46:38 Skinner box as in BF Skinner said get
46:37 – 46:39 the hell away from my house and don’t
46:38 – 46:41 come back
46:39 – 46:44 but his parents weren’t so inclined or
46:41 – 46:46 his parents were part of it whatever
46:44 – 46:49 Sousa thinking he was dressed up in his
46:46 – 46:51 Sunday best every week in order to go to
46:49 – 46:53 this camp when we first goes in on the
46:51 – 46:55 Air Force Base there’s these kids locked
46:53 – 46:57 in these little cages and they said
46:55 – 46:60 that’s what happens to children who tell
46:57 – 47:03 their parents what happens and it turns
46:60 – 47:04 out that the purpose of this exercise as
47:03 – 47:08 near as he could tell it I should say
47:04 – 47:12 exercise this torture this MKULTRA
47:08 – 47:15 program is to break these people open to
47:12 – 47:18 break these souls open in order to
47:15 – 47:21 access this extended consciousness realm
47:18 – 47:23 and once we do this investigation like
47:21 – 47:26 you and I have we say totally
47:23 – 47:28 understandable I mean in the shamanic
47:26 – 47:30 traditions many of them have similar
47:28 – 47:35 kind of it’s not not that they’re not
47:30 – 47:38 culturally understood to be torturous
47:35 – 47:40 they’re understood to be rites of
47:38 – 47:41 passage whether it’s a sweat lodge or
47:40 – 47:43 whether it’s some other kind of
47:41 – 47:44 experience of being stung by bees but
47:43 – 47:46 that would be kind of in a different
47:44 – 47:51 thing but anyways the point is the same
47:46 – 47:52 that is the technology that I guess I’m
47:51 – 47:54 talking about
47:52 – 47:58 because certainly those folks in the Air
47:54 – 48:02 Force the MKULTRA three-letter agency
47:58 – 48:06 they weren’t doing this from a shamanic
48:02 – 48:08 or a magic perspective they were doing
48:06 – 48:11 it as near as we can tell is let’s
48:08 – 48:14 figure out how the fucking aliens do it
48:11 – 48:15 and do it the same way because what I
48:14 – 48:18 always point to is you know my friend
48:15 – 48:21 grant Cameron and the famous will Burt
48:18 – 48:24 Smith we’re right there it’s written
48:21 – 48:26 down we’ve gone to the US we found that
48:24 – 48:28 the UFOs are real and the the mental
48:26 – 48:31 component of it is something they’re
48:28 – 48:33 very very interested in and this fits in
48:31 – 48:36 that timeframe let’s see if we can break
48:33 – 48:38 people open in order so that we might
48:36 – 48:41 perfect this technology and that’s what
48:38 – 48:43 intrigues me Gordon is that
48:41 – 48:47 what if there really is a technology
48:43 – 48:50 component to this and if you look
48:47 – 48:52 stretched technology to mean it where we
48:50 – 48:56 they can get to some level and in that
48:52 – 48:59 respect maybe we would look at the
48:56 – 49:02 shamanic and the magic traditions that
48:59 – 49:05 you’re talking about just in a different
49:02 – 49:08 perspective not worse better but you
49:05 – 49:10 know kind of the different perspective
49:08 – 49:13 in terms of how developed they are and
49:10 – 49:17 how efficacious they are at the desired
49:13 – 49:18 result I would suspect that that again
49:17 – 49:20 is a definitional challenge like you
49:18 – 49:21 kind of landed on it towards the end
49:20 – 49:23 there where it’s like well how do you
49:21 – 49:24 find technology and if you want to do
49:23 – 49:27 that comparison you kind of have to go
49:24 – 49:29 techne they go back to the ancient Greek
49:27 – 49:34 and and I like to use words like
49:29 – 49:35 cultural complexity instead because it
49:34 – 49:37 is not obvious to me although it’s
49:35 – 49:40 something entirely possible firstly all
49:37 – 49:42 that Whitley stuff 100% like sure I’d
49:40 – 49:46 like that’s that’s one of the things
49:42 – 49:48 that is alarming I would just say before
49:46 – 49:52 we talk about the technology thing if we
49:48 – 49:55 are comparing the p.m. or for projects
49:52 – 49:57 there of trying to weaponize these
49:55 – 49:60 capacities of these children that is
49:57 – 50:01 kind of trying to break into the spirit
49:60 – 50:04 world whereas typically and the word
50:01 – 50:05 shaman is is culturally bound we all
50:04 – 50:08 know that right now we’re talking about
50:05 – 50:10 what you will find in cultures that have
50:08 – 50:12 this as a function within it is that the
50:10 – 50:14 spirits choose them so you don’t you
50:12 – 50:16 don’t torture or the children in a tribe
50:14 – 50:18 you find the ones that the spirit of
50:16 – 50:21 picked and no unfortunately for you my
50:18 – 50:23 little son or daughter your lung can
50:21 – 50:28 have a very good life you get to be the
50:23 – 50:29 shaman and that’s that truly or horrible
50:28 – 50:32 and god only knows what they found with
50:29 – 50:34 these these projects but it’s it’s kind
50:32 – 50:36 of a it’s a military assault on the
50:34 – 50:39 spirit world so if we want to kind of
50:36 – 50:43 compare these two that’s that’s worth
50:39 – 50:45 thinking with as to what what I think
50:43 – 50:46 you’re getting at is has it already
50:45 – 50:50 happened
50:46 – 50:54 or will we one day somewhere in an
50:50 – 50:54 underground base have a device or
50:54 – 50:59 a machine that can bodily move you into
50:57 – 51:01 the spirit world or teleport you via you
50:59 – 51:03 know spirit tunnels whatever you want to
51:01 – 51:07 call them to like other points in the
51:03 – 51:10 galaxy can will a will the underground
51:07 – 51:13 base’s have a military version of some
51:10 – 51:14 of the capacities we find in cultures
51:13 – 51:16 that never lost magic
51:14 – 51:17 well then because that’s one question
51:16 – 51:18 but here’s the second question that I
51:17 – 51:20 want you to answer at the same time I
51:18 – 51:23 want to use your term cultural
51:20 – 51:27 complexity and I want to suggest is it
51:23 – 51:30 possible that et has a cultural
51:27 – 51:33 complexity that includes a mastery of
51:30 – 51:36 some of this stuff this extended
51:33 – 51:39 consciousness stuff that makes our
51:36 – 51:43 understanding of shamanic cultures as
51:39 – 51:46 well as magic traditions look like that
51:43 – 51:49 photo that I have up on the screen of
51:46 – 51:52 the nearly naked
51:49 – 51:54 Amazonian people who we admire in some
51:52 – 51:57 respects but in other ways go you know
51:54 – 52:00 here’s your compass go fight your way to
51:57 – 52:02 go to their River and there’s a boat on
52:00 – 52:06 there with a motor in it it’s a lot
52:02 – 52:10 easier I think what what happens is you
52:06 – 52:12 kind of get to that end point of where
52:10 – 52:13 does technology so one of the other
52:12 – 52:16 things Whitley said which I liked is
52:13 – 52:18 that advanced civilizations elsewhere in
52:16 – 52:21 the galaxy have presumably developed a
52:18 – 52:24 way to maintain continuous communication
52:21 – 52:26 after death so that the death toll and
52:24 – 52:28 we would have been close honestly I
52:26 – 52:29 think if we if spiritualism in the
52:28 – 52:31 mid-1800s had gone in a different
52:29 – 52:34 direction from a policy perspective we
52:31 – 52:36 may well have been there and that rather
52:34 – 52:38 changes it’s not even a technological
52:36 – 52:39 solve at that point what that means is
52:38 – 52:41 that you are you are fully you’re
52:39 – 52:44 operating in the full universe rather
52:41 – 52:45 than the component of it that you can
52:44 – 52:48 perceive while you’re still in a meat
52:45 – 52:51 suit right and so when you talk about a
52:48 – 52:53 technology that relies on shall we say
52:51 – 52:54 like the physics of magic or the fact
52:53 – 52:58 that the universe is magic and a
52:54 – 52:59 technology built on that you’re still in
52:58 – 53:01 a universe that’s magic so you kind of
52:59 – 53:02 get to this end point we go okay so a
53:01 – 53:04 civilization that can maintain
53:02 – 53:06 continuous communication beyond death
53:04 – 53:08 and and can do instantaneous
53:06 – 53:11 interplanetary transport and so on
53:08 – 53:16 those things can only work because the
53:11 – 53:17 universe is magical is you know I’m
53:16 – 53:18 using that term but you know what I mean
53:17 – 53:21 like we live in any animate whether it’s
53:18 – 53:23 consciousness universe so yes and no
53:21 – 53:24 what I would say back and I know this
53:23 – 53:26 has happened to you as well but in
53:24 – 53:28 certainly happen to me having on my
53:26 – 53:30 travels to various like you know sacred
53:28 – 53:33 sites and weird places and being amongst
53:30 – 53:36 like tribal fetish objects and all this
53:33 – 53:39 kind of stuff is that a rock can do that
53:36 – 53:41 if you go to say Marie Laveau’s to in
53:39 – 53:42 New Orleans as you walk up to it your
53:41 – 53:45 blood pressure drops and it’s a tomb
53:42 – 53:48 it’s just it’s from that level of
53:45 – 53:50 reality that the technology can be built
53:48 – 53:52 and who’s to say it has it remember
53:50 – 53:55 you’ve had guests on that can astral
53:52 – 53:59 travel like so who’s to say it hasn’t I
53:55 – 54:02 agree with you that you just end up with
53:59 – 54:04 this kind of infinite or vanishing point
54:02 – 54:06 where we might do it on a mechanistic
54:04 – 54:08 basis or we might do it on an animistic
54:06 – 54:11 basis but you’ll still end up at this
54:08 – 54:14 point the realization that you are in an
54:11 – 54:18 animate magic all consciousness universe
54:14 – 54:20 whatever will will occur and that’s kind
54:18 – 54:21 of where I’m like I’m not sure are you
54:20 – 54:24 yeah
54:21 – 54:27 and are there entities in the galaxy
54:24 – 54:30 that have consciousness ray guns for
54:27 – 54:33 whatever I don’t know you know an
54:30 – 54:35 example do they have do they have red
54:33 – 54:38 iPhone that calls the devil at it like
54:35 – 54:41 yeah probably because you know the the
54:38 – 54:42 UFO contact experience especially when
54:41 – 54:44 you get to things like screen memory and
54:42 – 54:46 so on is a little alarming it’s it’s
54:44 – 54:49 there’s no other question you know I
54:46 – 54:52 think that’s worth thinking with you
54:49 – 54:53 know I could hammer on this on and on
54:52 – 54:55 that you’ve brought up so many great
54:53 – 54:57 points I just think we’re gonna lose
54:55 – 54:59 ourselves and the complexity of it but
54:57 – 55:03 awesome kind of discussion let’s bring
54:59 – 55:05 it back to dr. demian yeah maybe more of
55:03 – 55:07 a down-to-earth kind of discussion that
55:05 – 55:09 you and I have had offline and we’ll
55:07 – 55:13 share as much as you feel comfortable
55:09 – 55:15 with kind of online here but we both
55:13 – 55:17 interviewed dr. Dean Radin you did an
55:15 – 55:20 excellent interview with and then I kind
55:17 – 55:22 of was a little bit meaner to him but
55:20 – 55:24 still I appreciate it very much
55:22 – 55:26 and coming on and if I was mean to him
55:24 – 55:29 if I’m saying I was mean to him it’s
55:26 – 55:32 because the vanishing point that you’re
55:29 – 55:35 talking about I think has to be on the
55:32 – 55:38 forefront of our mind as we walk down
55:35 – 55:40 this this path the vanishing point being
55:38 – 55:44 that we’re going to reach hyperspace
55:40 – 55:47 when we realized that the shaman is no
55:44 – 55:50 different than the et in terms of their
55:47 – 55:52 ability to manipulate the extended
55:50 – 55:56 consciousness realm because it all
55:52 – 55:60 reaches some higher dimension that then
55:56 – 56:02 totally escapes what we can is beyond
55:60 – 56:04 our understanding and that’s where the
56:02 – 56:08 action probably really begins and I just
56:04 – 56:11 wonder as awesome as Dean is and as
56:08 – 56:14 important as his work is can he really
56:11 – 56:15 catch up to there given you know when
56:14 – 56:18 you talk to Dean he says you know to be
56:15 – 56:20 honest with you and I so appreciate his
56:18 – 56:23 honesty is I didn’t even think of the
56:20 – 56:26 term spirit seriously until a year ago
56:23 – 56:30 and if he is on the Vanguard and for
56:26 – 56:32 God’s sakes he is on the Vanguard but if
56:30 – 56:35 he is on the if he is on the edge of
56:32 – 56:38 this does science really has science in
56:35 – 56:41 this sense have a chance of catching up
56:38 – 56:43 um this is where maybe I would swap that
56:41 – 56:45 out again to just be a bit more precise
56:43 – 56:47 and say empiricism and I think Dean has
56:45 – 56:50 got this right like empiricism is
56:47 – 56:53 fascinating because my definition of it
56:50 – 56:55 and it’s a good one philosophically is
56:53 – 56:58 that empiricism is the notion that
56:55 – 57:00 nothing exists outside of sense data and
56:58 – 57:02 and scientific results are a subset of
57:00 – 57:04 sense data because you perceive the
57:02 – 57:09 results right and it invalidates itself
57:04 – 57:10 as a as a full explanation for the
57:09 – 57:13 universe because the statement that
57:10 – 57:15 nothing exists beyond sense data is a
57:13 – 57:17 statement you make without the sense
57:15 – 57:18 data to support it you are making a
57:17 – 57:21 statement about the universe that
57:18 – 57:23 nothing exists that I can’t perceive now
57:21 – 57:26 that but once you realize that
57:23 – 57:28 empiricism becomes exceptionally useful
57:26 – 57:30 because you’ve made it the right size
57:28 – 57:32 and this is how we can do things like
57:30 – 57:36 archeology and whatever and I think Dean
57:32 – 57:40 is absolutely nailed it by the in
57:36 – 57:45 last book by taking the empirical
57:40 – 57:47 exploration of magic and hanumant
57:45 – 57:52 universe the reality of say whatever you
57:47 – 57:55 want to as far as it can and I think he
57:52 – 57:57 was really good with us both at holding
57:55 – 57:59 the line I think he’s like this is
57:57 – 58:01 literally all we can get here but this
57:59 – 58:03 is all that this can show us that
58:01 – 58:06 doesn’t mean that’s all is there in the
58:03 – 58:08 world so I really like the Dean and
58:06 – 58:10 maybe it’s his kind of cosmic function
58:08 – 58:12 in the world I really like the Dean
58:10 – 58:14 holds that light because like I asked if
58:12 – 58:17 it’s true it’s true for especially this
58:14 – 58:20 is real skeptical stuff right like it’s
58:17 – 58:22 true that the data cannot I mean to our
58:20 – 58:25 satisfaction sure can i definitively
58:22 – 58:27 land on the existence of an afterlife or
58:25 – 58:30 spirits or anything that stuff because
58:27 – 58:32 you can’t perceive it because it this is
58:30 – 58:33 how big empiricism is it’s one circle
58:32 – 58:36 and this stuff is outside of it and
58:33 – 58:39 whilst we all agree like the data uproot
58:36 – 58:42 like it’s just that we can’t use this
58:39 – 58:44 one technique to conclusively land on it
58:42 – 58:45 doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist it means
58:44 – 58:47 like it in fact it’s a really good
58:45 – 58:49 argument like empiricism is completely
58:47 – 58:51 filled up with like this this stuff is
58:49 – 58:54 real but we need other techniques we
58:51 – 58:56 need other epistemology is hence why I’m
58:54 – 58:59 interested in that rather than ontology
58:56 – 59:01 to be able to go ok well then where do
58:59 – 59:04 we what other means of truth validation
59:01 – 59:07 exists for us outside of empiricism and
59:04 – 59:09 so I loved both those interviews and
59:07 – 59:12 he’s to be congratulated because we all
59:09 – 59:14 agree like it’s it’s a pretty good case
59:12 – 59:16 that you know the spirit world exists
59:14 – 59:20 and life continues after death but you
59:16 – 59:22 cannot get to it with an empirical model
59:20 – 59:24 conclusively you can get to something is
59:22 – 59:26 going on and it was so good of him to
59:24 – 59:29 kind of go no I will not be drawn
59:26 – 59:31 outside of it and I’m really happy he
59:29 – 59:35 held that line and it leaves us to kind
59:31 – 59:39 of blur though in the way which is where
59:35 – 59:43 we belong we want you on that wall we
59:39 – 59:46 need you on that wall but it’s like it’s
59:43 – 59:48 I mean it’s so good he’s just got such
59:46 – 59:49 the mind and the experience to go like I
59:48 – 59:51 can’t you
59:49 – 59:54 cannot design an experiment to
59:51 – 59:59 objectively demonstrate empirically you
59:54 – 60:03 can’t design with you I’m with you and
59:59 – 60:07 I’m totally 100% supportive of Abdeen I
60:03 – 60:09 love what you said about the magical
60:07 – 60:12 shrinking machine and that is the most
60:09 – 60:15 beautiful metaphor that I’ve heard my
60:12 – 60:16 problem is when I really step back and
60:15 – 60:21 want to be honest and not be so nice is
60:16 – 60:25 that you’ve now shrunk it down to where
60:21 – 60:28 it isn’t that meaningful or important
60:25 – 60:31 science has now obsoleted itself in
60:28 – 60:33 terms of a larger investigation of who
60:31 – 60:35 are we why are we here and you’ve just
60:33 – 60:39 relegated it to us a part of it
60:35 – 60:42 it can help but the shrinking machine
60:39 – 60:45 you know can be a problem and it’s very
60:42 – 60:47 specific about empiricism so empiricism
60:45 – 60:50 isn’t science these are two different
60:47 – 60:54 things science relies on empiricism
60:50 – 60:58 currently exclusively in which as a way
60:54 – 61:01 to as its exclusive epistemology it
60:58 – 61:04 relies on empiricism it doesn’t need to
61:01 – 61:08 and and this is something that Western
61:04 – 61:09 philosophy which is hidden mists but one
61:08 – 61:10 of the things and comes back to what
61:09 – 61:12 we’re talking about there are other
61:10 – 61:13 forms of proof that we have had
61:12 – 61:15 available to us for twenty five hundred
61:13 – 61:17 years we’ve had mathematical proofs
61:15 – 61:20 we’ve had logical proofs we have had for
61:17 – 61:22 whatever they’re worth hold on hold on I
61:20 – 61:25 mean if Dean has helped us make any
61:22 – 61:28 change at all it’s that the shade
61:25 – 61:31 casting that’s been done on empiricism
61:28 – 61:34 is now flipped and what we can say now
61:31 – 61:35 is empiricism really is the only game in
61:34 – 61:38 town because all those other things
61:35 – 61:40 you’re talking about aren’t real we
61:38 – 61:43 can’t really measure things
61:40 – 61:46 no but that’s really we can’t really do
61:43 – 61:48 mathematics we really can’t because it’s
61:46 – 61:50 all an abstraction of something that we
61:48 – 61:53 don’t know what it really is the only
61:50 – 61:56 game so town is in Paris the only game
61:53 – 61:58 is it’s not you’re using empiricism
61:56 – 62:01 which is an epistemology as an ontology
61:58 – 62:02 again and that’s the error so there is
62:01 – 62:04 nothing and this
62:02 – 62:08 the kind of realization that happens
62:04 – 62:10 across disciplines nothing stops there
62:08 – 62:13 is nothing that can prevent you from
62:10 – 62:16 doing that baseline philosophical work
62:13 – 62:19 of what is reality empiricism is the
62:16 – 62:21 next level down and I don’t think it
62:19 – 62:24 makes it I don’t think it diminishes it
62:21 – 62:26 I think it restores it and makes it
62:24 – 62:28 useful again so that it’s not designed
62:26 – 62:30 to be an ontology it’s designed to be an
62:28 – 62:33 epistemology and we keep using it as an
62:30 – 62:35 ontology and if you if you just let it
62:33 – 62:37 be what it is again yes you have to do
62:35 – 62:40 the hard work of going like well that’s
62:37 – 62:42 one method of truth validation but
62:40 – 62:44 nevertheless Here I am as an organism or
62:42 – 62:46 consciousness or whatever in a universe
62:44 – 62:47 that has that capacity what can I learn
62:46 – 62:49 about and this is the Western
62:47 – 62:52 philosophical journey it’s the eastern
62:49 – 62:54 one – in many respects is you nothing
62:52 – 62:57 can stop you there is no like oh look
62:54 – 63:02 done and I have empirically generated
62:57 – 63:04 data that solves a crucial thing that
63:02 – 63:07 every human has to do which is those
63:04 – 63:10 foundational philosophical principles or
63:07 – 63:12 work nothing prevents that and
63:10 – 63:15 empiricism turning it back into an
63:12 – 63:18 epistemology is tremendously useful on
63:15 – 63:19 that personal quest to do so so I don’t
63:18 – 63:22 think I think it’s the opposite I think
63:19 – 63:24 it’s made it better rather than worse to
63:22 – 63:28 make it to just let it be what it was
63:24 – 63:30 initially yeah maybe I’ll move on and
63:28 – 63:32 let it go and the next time we talk I’ll
63:30 – 63:35 I’ll ask you to finish that thought
63:32 – 63:39 about what ontology x’ what maps of the
63:35 – 63:41 territory are really something that we
63:39 – 63:43 can that we can put up on the wall and
63:41 – 63:45 be proud of because I don’t think I
63:43 – 63:47 don’t think they exist but but I don’t
63:45 – 63:49 think any of those other alternative
63:47 – 63:55 ontology is really kind of get a say but
63:49 – 63:59 I shut up and move on so here’s a fun
63:55 – 64:02 one another chance to poke the bear or
63:59 – 64:04 poke the guest as it is in this case but
64:02 – 64:07 I think the data versus interpretation
64:04 – 64:10 thing with regard to social engineering
64:07 – 64:13 what some people call conspiracy which
64:10 – 64:15 is if there ever was a social
64:13 – 64:16 engineering of a term it’s the social
64:15 – 64:19 engineering of
64:16 – 64:22 conspiracy that’s conspiracy as opposed
64:19 – 64:24 to what it really is is 90 percent of
64:22 – 64:26 the time a social engineering project by
64:24 – 64:29 someone by a government either our
64:26 – 64:31 government or a foreign government or a
64:29 – 64:34 corporation or a shadow government or
64:31 – 64:36 somebody I think there’s this data
64:34 – 64:39 versus interpretation thing going on
64:36 – 64:41 people get tired of me talking about the
64:39 – 64:43 Gloria Steinem example but I love it
64:41 – 64:45 because still a lot of people it’s
64:43 – 64:48 something we can touch and we can go and
64:45 – 64:49 actually put our finger on it’s one of
64:48 – 64:52 the few times that one of the players
64:49 – 64:54 actually stands out is stupid enough to
64:52 – 64:57 stand outside and go well yeah I really
64:54 – 65:00 was a player in a social engineering
64:57 – 65:04 project and then we find out that she
65:00 – 65:09 not only was but still is so here’s my
65:04 – 65:15 poke at you to what extent is the
65:09 – 65:19 current kind of neoliberal quasi proto
65:15 – 65:21 pseudo progressive divide a social
65:19 – 65:24 engineering project because it sure as
65:21 – 65:27 hell looks like one to me it looks like
65:24 – 65:29 another version I mean it took me seven
65:27 – 65:31 or eight years into skeptiko to realize
65:29 – 65:34 that biological robot in a meaningless
65:31 – 65:37 universe is not just a bunch of dumb
65:34 – 65:42 guys who haven’t figured out an obvious
65:37 – 65:44 kind of observation it is somehow social
65:42 – 65:46 engineering useful idiot you know isn’t
65:44 – 65:48 it better if we send things down this
65:46 – 65:51 path kind of thing and I always like the
65:48 – 65:54 example you give of well look at the
65:51 – 65:57 frontier science done in the darkest
65:54 – 65:60 corners of those agencies that were way
65:57 – 66:02 past the materialistic model yeah a long
65:60 – 66:05 time ago and I wonder if the same thing
66:02 – 66:09 isn’t going on here so when we see these
66:05 – 66:13 social movements it just to me smacks of
66:09 – 66:17 social engineering what thank you Gordon
66:13 – 66:19 I think some of it yes I think a lot of
66:17 – 66:23 it is inertia so I think we are still in
66:19 – 66:26 the after-effects of either successful
66:23 – 66:29 or abandoned 20th century technocratic
66:26 – 66:33 engineering ones so if you look at FEM
66:29 – 66:36 and I I don’t know quite what Steinem
66:33 – 66:39 was for for the CIA
66:36 – 66:42 other than surveillance but I rather
66:39 – 66:43 suspect it has to do I think they are
66:42 – 66:47 interested in whether feminism could be
66:43 – 66:49 used to reduce population I think I
66:47 – 66:50 think that might have been it because if
66:49 – 66:52 you look at the kind of 20th century
66:50 – 66:55 technocratic project one of the things
66:52 – 66:58 they were concerned about and it’s it’s
66:55 – 66:59 always the case I saw it like a lot of
66:58 – 67:01 things are concerned about is
66:59 – 67:05 overpopulation so I’m not but here we
67:01 – 67:08 are in a in the inertia of a whole bunch
67:05 – 67:12 of different ups and projects from
67:08 – 67:14 Russian meddling to feminism to to all
67:12 – 67:16 the rest of it and we’re kind of in this
67:14 – 67:17 car crash inevitable conclusion of what
67:16 – 67:19 happens because there was so much
67:17 – 67:21 inertia behind them even if they’re not
67:19 – 67:23 running now we’re still caught in the
67:21 – 67:25 tumble of it they’re also as far as I
67:23 – 67:29 can tell looking the world in the last
67:25 – 67:32 few years there are more people private
67:29 – 67:35 entities billionaires whatever you want
67:32 – 67:37 playing a game that used to pretty much
67:35 – 67:38 have one player at least in the West
67:37 – 67:40 like during the Cold War we had one
67:38 – 67:42 player and whether it was because the
67:40 – 67:45 anglo-american alliance whatever you
67:42 – 67:47 want to call it and had the CIA and all
67:45 – 67:49 the rest of it well more or less aligned
67:47 – 67:51 in what they wanted to achieve for the
67:49 – 67:55 West in the 20th century or not if you
67:51 – 67:58 look at it now what isn’t enough so I
67:55 – 68:03 think it’s really we’re in a kind of car
67:58 – 68:05 crash of current ups and the inertia of
68:03 – 68:08 historic ones and I think that’s just
68:05 – 68:10 where we are and it’s a mess you know
68:08 – 68:15 one thing I’d kind of throw out there is
68:10 – 68:18 an explanation of these ops number one I
68:15 – 68:20 always fall back on the reactive versus
68:18 – 68:23 proactive thing which is I think the
68:20 – 68:26 first agenda is hey we have to have a
68:23 – 68:29 foot in the door we have to have a stake
68:26 – 68:33 in that game so yeah you go and you
68:29 – 68:35 co-opt or disrupt or infiltrate feminism
68:33 – 68:37 if for no other reason then we’ll figure
68:35 – 68:38 out what the fuck to do with it later
68:37 – 68:41 let’s just make sure we have
68:38 – 68:43 we can play in that game and that’s the
68:41 – 68:43 British Empire model that’s absolutely
68:43 – 68:45 it
68:43 – 68:49 yeah yeah and I think that’s that’s
68:45 – 68:52 smart but I think if we were gonna if I
68:49 – 68:55 was going to venture a guess on what the
68:52 – 68:59 goal is I think the first goal always
68:55 – 69:01 since constantine has been control sure
68:59 – 69:06 because that’s our job is is to control
69:01 – 69:09 and if we can pacify disrupt in in this
69:06 – 69:12 case when you look at feminism if we can
69:09 – 69:15 atomized the family if we can isolate
69:12 – 69:18 make people more alone afraid less
69:15 – 69:21 connected then we’re always better off
69:18 – 69:23 in terms of from a control standpoint
69:21 – 69:27 yeah it’s easier to control the sheep in
69:23 – 69:29 that way than it is in any other way and
69:27 – 69:31 that’s my concern with like when I look
69:29 – 69:33 at like I have up there the first
69:31 – 69:35 transgender Muslim kind of thing because
69:33 – 69:38 some of these things are actually
69:35 – 69:40 bordering on the kind of comical and
69:38 – 69:45 it’s the same thing in my opinion is
69:40 – 69:49 like is there an issue in terms of
69:45 – 69:51 sexuality in terms of absolutely is
69:49 – 69:55 there an issue in terms of
69:51 – 69:57 transgenderism and and rights and
69:55 – 69:59 certain discretion certainly
69:57 – 70:02 discrimination that’s obvious
69:59 – 70:06 absolutely is there an agenda that keeps
70:02 – 70:08 cropping up in terms of trans now finish
70:06 – 70:12 that with whatever you want
70:08 – 70:16 you know transhumanism trans culture ISM
70:12 – 70:20 trans-atlantic globalization I mean I
70:16 – 70:23 think there’s a lot of things at play
70:20 – 70:25 there in terms of an agenda that seems
70:23 – 70:27 to be playing out in a bunch of
70:25 – 70:30 different ways in this same way of
70:27 – 70:33 atomizing separating and ultimately
70:30 – 70:37 turning people into being more alone
70:33 – 70:39 afraid less connected and less spiritual
70:37 – 70:42 in whatever way we want to kind of
70:39 – 70:43 define that what do you think well well
70:42 – 70:44 that’s kind of why I use the word
70:43 – 70:46 technocracy because I’ll work backwards
70:44 – 70:48 because what you just said there is it’s
70:46 – 70:50 true although I don’t focus here’s the
70:48 – 70:51 thing the 20th century technocratic
70:50 – 70:54 project and you include all the P
70:51 – 70:57 like béarnaise that are that a part of
70:54 – 70:59 all of the 20th century development of
70:57 – 71:02 these capacities right so the
70:59 – 71:06 technocracy thought it fell to these
71:02 – 71:09 rich people to manage the development of
71:06 – 71:11 the world and the West for our benefit
71:09 – 71:13 right so it isn’t even just necessarily
71:11 – 71:15 keeping them alone and afraid that is a
71:13 – 71:18 side effect of well we are the
71:15 – 71:21 technocratic running the world so our
71:18 – 71:23 our competing narratives are here in the
71:21 – 71:24 church and here in the family and so on
71:23 – 71:25 and what we actually want because we’re
71:24 – 71:27 all the doctors
71:25 – 71:29 where are the educators where all are
71:27 – 71:30 this kind of stuff you need to get it
71:29 – 71:33 from us and we will manage the society
71:30 – 71:35 and you will eat the right food and the
71:33 – 71:37 population will grow or not at the rate
71:35 – 71:39 that we determine the economy will work
71:37 – 71:41 where this is this is how this is the
71:39 – 71:43 the demonic goal so it’s funny it’s
71:41 – 71:46 where I wanted to start there on a human
71:43 – 71:48 level that’s the kind of 20th century
71:46 – 71:50 idea I think they’re shooting for it is
71:48 – 71:51 demonic like if you want to go to a
71:50 – 71:53 higher level when you’re talking about
71:51 – 71:55 what are the kind of metaphysical
71:53 – 71:56 implications I have no idea if any of
71:55 – 71:59 these people realize they are being
71:56 – 72:01 ridden by demons but nevertheless the
71:59 – 72:04 goal of this kind of project is it is in
72:01 – 72:06 some literal sense atactic when it comes
72:04 – 72:08 back to what I was saying before about a
72:06 – 72:10 car crash of different real and fake
72:08 – 72:12 things and an existing and historic
72:10 – 72:14 agendas and so on
72:12 – 72:15 it’s a pity that the word trans is used
72:14 – 72:18 returns humanism and something like
72:15 – 72:21 trans rights because and trans-fats like
72:18 – 72:23 it’s actually like it’s and so we had
72:21 – 72:25 this listing where things get conflated
72:23 – 72:30 together and transhumanism
72:25 – 72:30 is like up and down a technocratic plot
72:30 – 72:36 trans experiences and and kind of new
72:34 – 72:38 explore a explorations of gender and
72:36 – 72:40 gender expression and however they are
72:38 – 72:42 regularly weaponized and they’re
72:40 – 72:44 weaponized for intentional reasons and
72:42 – 72:45 also because missus because Connor comes
72:44 – 72:47 on the show a lot of kind of happy
72:45 – 72:49 because of my show we talked about this
72:47 – 72:52 which is you typically find and
72:49 – 72:55 obviously you typically find the
72:52 – 72:57 promotion of or the the defense of trans
72:55 – 72:60 rights and trans visibility on the
72:57 – 73:02 progressive end of the spectrum like
72:60 – 73:04 obviously that is also you guys have
73:02 – 73:06 when you go it encapsulates I think
73:04 – 73:07 where you’re going what’s like how come
73:06 – 73:13 trans people aren’t allowed in the
73:07 – 73:15 military and you’re like yeah it’s great
73:13 – 73:17 just ban the rest of them now they but
73:15 – 73:20 mostly it’s because on the left where
73:17 – 73:23 you find and were you historically and
73:20 – 73:25 typically and rightly I guess finally
73:23 – 73:27 this promotion of the wrong word because
73:25 – 73:28 it sounds like an agenda but let’s just
73:27 – 73:31 say the defense and the prioritization
73:28 – 73:32 of things a trans rights you also get a
73:31 – 73:35 kind of idiotic
73:32 – 73:37 left materialism you you get the kind of
73:35 – 73:40 Marxist reduction of everything back
73:37 – 73:43 into a materialist labor interaction
73:40 – 73:45 based on his you know observations of a
73:43 – 73:47 19th century industrial economy so you
73:45 – 73:50 have a definite weaponization of
73:47 – 73:51 different manifestations of this you
73:50 – 73:54 have the part of it which is good which
73:51 – 73:55 is you know people should be able to
73:54 – 73:57 fucking move how they want to live and
73:55 – 73:60 you also have the people who are trying
73:57 – 74:02 to help as far as I’m concerned aren’t
73:60 – 74:04 helping in the right way because you see
74:02 – 74:06 argument goes round and around on a
74:04 – 74:08 materialist basis because from a
74:06 – 74:11 progressive perspective
74:08 – 74:13 magic for whenever a better word is is
74:11 – 74:17 dirty it’s it’s dirty their Marxist
74:13 – 74:22 don’t like it the 20th century for us
74:17 – 74:23 was they rely on don’t like it you can I
74:22 – 74:26 substitute spurge you say magic I
74:23 – 74:29 substitute spirituality saying if you
74:26 – 74:31 come at it from an atheistic perspective
74:29 – 74:35 it’s all gobbly good within about two
74:31 – 74:37 sentences and unfortunately the the less
74:35 – 74:40 the left the progressive the neoliberal
74:37 – 74:43 has married themselves to just a
74:40 – 74:46 philosophical kind of non-starter nitwit
74:43 – 74:50 again biological robot kind of thing I
74:46 – 74:51 never said yeah and I thought do you
74:50 – 74:55 have any thoughts on that third picture
74:51 – 74:58 down there I’ve just so many odds alone
74:55 – 75:02 too long and your buddy Peter Levin de
74:58 – 75:07 oh my god to me to me this is the most
75:02 – 75:10 clear example of a political role out
75:07 – 75:13 disclosure kind of thing that that is
75:10 – 75:15 masked by again all this bullshit of
75:13 – 75:16 people talking about well did he did
75:15 – 75:20 they did they should they would they
75:16 – 75:23 it’s a complete political disclosure
75:20 – 75:26 rollout let’s look at it as an operation
75:23 – 75:28 and stop looking at it as a true
75:26 – 75:30 disclosure I mean it there was dissin
75:28 – 75:33 information was disclosed but again it’s
75:30 – 75:34 your term weaponized you know what do
75:33 – 75:36 you think a table what do you think
75:34 – 75:37 computer living my Peter Levin to quote
75:36 – 75:39 that I do have to get you to respond to
75:37 – 75:41 the one that just had me pounding on the
75:39 – 75:42 table I was like I gotta push this back
75:41 – 75:44 on Gordon because Gordon like theater
75:42 – 75:48 his freaks retelling of the story is
75:44 – 75:50 well and then Tom DeLonge called me and
75:48 – 75:51 of course I hung up because I didn’t
75:50 – 75:54 believe was times long and he calls me
75:51 – 75:55 back he said it really is and then we
75:54 – 75:57 talked for a long time we go gosh we
75:55 – 75:59 really got to crack this thing there’s
75:57 – 76:01 so much misinformation disinformation
75:59 – 76:03 out there we got to get to the bottom of
76:01 – 76:06 that and we decided well the only way to
76:03 – 76:13 do that was to go to the military so
76:06 – 76:16 that’s what we did . oh really that was
76:13 – 76:18 the only way to get to the bottom of it
76:16 – 76:21 i mean that isn’t even a well-crafted
76:18 – 76:23 story I was like embarrassed that you
76:21 – 76:28 even try and spin that out there to me
76:23 – 76:28 alright I’ve gone too far
76:28 – 76:33 tell me tell me what you think in
76:29 – 76:36 general about the political SIOP
76:33 – 76:38 disclosure that was it was always gonna
76:36 – 76:41 be I won I think it’s an abandoned one
76:38 – 76:43 we’ve had this discussion before I think
76:41 – 76:45 this stuff is to coincide with the movie
76:43 – 76:49 arrival and a Hillary Clinton presidency
76:45 – 76:51 no idea which happened and they it’s
76:49 – 76:53 it’s like a movie right we have it in
76:51 – 76:56 the can with all the money I’ve got it
76:53 – 76:58 because this if you look at what and you
76:56 – 76:59 you’ll be an agreement in most of your
76:58 – 77:01 guests when you talk about this stuff
76:59 – 77:05 will as well if you look at the majority
77:01 – 77:09 of the the kind of classic era UFO cases
77:05 – 77:12 they are patently us cold war propaganda
77:09 – 77:14 covering secret military projects and
77:12 – 77:15 and and trying to kind of like influence
77:14 – 77:16 the Soviets and since it’s like well
77:15 – 77:18 maybe they do have a flying saucer like
77:16 – 77:21 there’s a lot of a lot of stuff in the
77:18 – 77:25 kind of classic cases is that now all of
77:21 – 77:28 a sudden we have yet another kind of op
77:25 – 77:30 of like oh well maybe we have these
77:28 – 77:32 these flying saucers and these these
77:30 – 77:34 special ray guns and and we got this
77:32 – 77:35 from aliens and it’s it’s important that
77:34 – 77:38 the American people know that this is
77:35 – 77:39 here and that was to coincide with what
77:38 – 77:43 you’re still getting two-thirds of
77:39 – 77:45 Washington trying to want which is a a
77:43 – 77:47 conflict with Russia and a military
77:45 – 77:50 dominance of Eurasia so I think this is
77:47 – 77:53 literally a a semi abandoned or let’s
77:50 – 77:55 see how this goes more air cover for the
77:53 – 77:57 kind of things that we’re going on in
77:55 – 77:59 the Cold War cause really new Cold War I
77:57 – 78:01 think it’s meant I think it’s weird I we
77:59 – 78:03 talked about I honestly think he’s been
78:01 – 78:04 mind-controlled several times and I
78:03 – 78:07 don’t know if you’ve heard him on some
78:04 – 78:09 of the earlier interviews where he’s
78:07 – 78:11 they’re calling people from the car and
78:09 – 78:12 or he’s like meeting people at the front
78:11 – 78:14 of the Pentagon in the middle of the
78:12 – 78:18 night and my my good dude he would being
78:14 – 78:21 mind-controlled so I just in adds a mess
78:18 – 78:23 I just interviewed Kevin day who is a
78:21 – 78:27 super interesting guy
78:23 – 78:30 so Kevin day is the the top gun
78:27 – 78:33 intercept Orchestrator of all those
78:30 – 78:36 planes that are on the tic-tac video
78:33 – 78:39 that gets released mm-hmm I can’t go
78:36 – 78:43 through the whole interview but the guy
78:39 – 78:49 certainly seems legit 1,000% legit and
78:43 – 78:51 the the PTSD valet Davis effect which I
78:49 – 78:56 wasn’t familiar with do you know the
78:51 – 78:57 ballet Davis so valet Davis effect are
78:56 – 79:01 they went ahead
78:57 – 79:04 they Jacques valet and I forget dr.
79:01 – 79:07 Davis’s thing but they did a purity of
79:04 – 79:11 published analysis of the after effects
79:07 – 79:15 of contact related experiences and this
79:11 – 79:18 guy says all of them check every box
79:15 – 79:21 meanwhile he’s going to VA clinics and
79:18 – 79:24 they’re going oh complex PTSD and he’s
79:21 – 79:26 like yeah kind of but not really and
79:24 – 79:27 then he stumbles across eight years
79:26 – 79:28 later because it’s all happened a long
79:27 – 79:31 time ago
79:28 – 79:34 he stumbles across ballet Davis and he
79:31 – 79:38 goes bingo exactly and he traces it back
79:34 – 79:40 to when he actually went up on board
79:38 – 79:41 ship and actually took the glasses out
79:40 – 79:45 and
79:41 – 79:49 look at these visitors and had an
79:45 – 79:51 instantaneous experience meanwhile he’s
79:49 – 79:53 using this state-of-the-art
79:51 – 79:55 billion-dollar war machine
79:53 – 79:58 instrumentation to track these things
79:55 – 80:02 every different way possible
79:58 – 80:04 and he’s seeing it and the other boats
80:02 – 80:07 and planes are seeing it but then
80:04 – 80:09 another interesting aspect of it is
80:07 – 80:12 there’s again this screen memory thing
80:09 – 80:13 going on and he retells the story so
80:12 – 80:14 many times and I listened to it Gordon
80:13 – 80:17 and I finally asked him I said you know
80:14 – 80:18 I’ve talked to enough contact he’s let
80:17 – 80:21 me ask you this part about the
80:18 – 80:26 experience because you said that you
80:21 – 80:30 observed these 20 flying objects
80:26 – 80:34 basically trolling your ship for like
80:30 – 80:37 four days and they were flying at 22,000
80:34 – 80:40 feet at a hundred knots can’t do that
80:37 – 80:43 nothing can do that but you didn’t think
80:40 – 80:46 it was anything to worry about I said I
80:43 – 80:47 gotta tell you how many times I’ve heard
80:46 – 80:50 that story
80:47 – 80:54 from a contact II oh I saw my wife being
80:50 – 80:55 abducted but I decided I should go
80:54 – 80:57 upstairs and go back to bed because
80:55 – 81:00 there was nothing there to worry about
80:57 – 81:03 so he not only has this experience but
81:00 – 81:05 all the other people in on the other
81:03 – 81:08 boats that you know are having the same
81:05 – 81:09 experience oh those are nothing to worry
81:08 – 81:13 about
81:09 – 81:18 they’re just enough so I think there’s
81:13 – 81:22 something more than just wargames
81:18 – 81:24 advanced weapon or advanced technology
81:22 – 81:27 being hidden I think it’s a real contact
81:24 – 81:30 experience and I think they’re playing
81:27 – 81:35 around with true disclosure that is I
81:30 – 81:40 think there’s there is disclosure that
81:35 – 81:43 could be planet changing but there’s a
81:40 – 81:45 wrestling match of the usual kind in
81:43 – 81:47 terms of who’s going to control that
81:45 – 81:49 information and how and when they bring
81:47 – 81:53 it out because obviously that can
81:49 – 81:55 dictate how the script gets written from
81:53 – 81:57 there on
81:55 – 82:01 yeah I’m not sure I’d go the whole way
81:57 – 82:03 there it may well be of course I what
82:01 – 82:05 the closest I would get to that because
82:03 – 82:06 I still think this is when I say it’s an
82:05 – 82:08 op it doesn’t mean because they know
82:06 – 82:09 damn well that they don’t have some of
82:08 – 82:11 these toys that they’re talking about
82:09 – 82:13 right and I don’t know the origins of
82:11 – 82:14 those toys I don’t think you necessarily
82:13 – 82:16 need to have a crush spaceship to make
82:14 – 82:17 some of the kind of things that existed
82:16 – 82:19 when I’m supposed to but maybe that’s
82:17 – 82:22 where you got them from I do think there
82:19 – 82:26 is a kind of signaling game going on at
82:22 – 82:28 a higher geopolitical level and I think
82:26 – 82:30 Russia and China and obviously everyone
82:28 – 82:35 is playing alone this ain’t like they’re
82:30 – 82:38 trying to rattle sabers that we aren’t
82:35 – 82:39 supposed to think exists so if you look
82:38 – 82:40 at the recent Russia thing that may or
82:39 – 82:42 may not be true that they have like a
82:40 – 82:43 ray gun that can cause hallucinations
82:42 – 82:46 and comments and they’re putting on the
82:43 – 82:47 ship that may exist that may not but we
82:46 – 82:48 have this kind of stuff going on in the
82:47 – 82:51 West it may have that and what I’m
82:48 – 82:53 seeing is oh just mean just put it on a
82:51 – 82:55 nation basis obviously because I think
82:53 – 82:57 we’re potentially to geopolitically
82:55 – 82:59 sophisticated to to have it as a
82:57 – 83:02 national discussion or between nations
82:59 – 83:03 discussion but I do think in some of
83:02 – 83:05 this hullabaloo and front page and you
83:03 – 83:06 if for somebody to go in the front page
83:05 – 83:11 of the New York Times it’s get signed
83:06 – 83:13 off in Langley right so I do think
83:11 – 83:14 there’s what we’re seeing in a whole
83:13 – 83:16 bunch of different fora
83:14 – 83:19 at the moment on the geopolitical stage
83:16 – 83:22 people are rattling sabers that we
83:19 – 83:23 aren’t supposed to know exists and and
83:22 – 83:25 that would be as close as I get to I
83:23 – 83:26 think there’s a wrestle over disclosure
83:25 – 83:29 I think they’re like you go flying
83:26 – 83:34 saucers I got a vomit producing ray gun
83:29 – 83:36 perhaps hmm okay we might another topic
83:34 – 83:40 let’s see if we have time to get to five
83:36 – 83:42 or not but this is one first of all
83:40 – 83:45 here’s the guy you’re looking at the
83:42 – 83:48 first guy I know who totally called odd
83:45 – 83:51 patreon probably a year ago yeah a year
83:48 – 83:54 ago said yeah no it ain’t it ain’t gonna
83:51 – 83:56 happen it’s gonna turn the way that all
83:54 – 83:58 the other ones will turn as if we could
83:56 – 84:02 see those other ones turning censorship
83:58 – 84:03 hardcore softcore so tell us and you
84:02 – 84:06 know I pulled to make my little meme
84:03 – 84:07 there I think I’m not very interesting
84:06 – 84:11 head might just
84:07 – 84:14 last couple days from our buddy but you
84:11 – 84:16 know jack conte who’s the CEO of patreon
84:14 – 84:19 the news story that I ran across that I
84:16 – 84:22 thought you know for people like you and
84:19 – 84:25 I we can would love to spin it reading
84:22 – 84:28 between the lines but his big news flash
84:25 – 84:31 was hey Patriot the current patreon
84:28 – 84:35 model is not sustainable and what he was
84:31 – 84:37 signaling was I think hey motherfuckers
84:35 – 84:39 get in line you worried about censorship
84:37 – 84:42 I’m gonna I’m gonna change the whole
84:39 – 84:43 damn thing instead of getting 90% I’m
84:42 – 84:46 gonna tell you how much you can get and
84:43 – 84:48 it’s gonna be a lot less than 90% in the
84:46 – 84:50 future and more importantly what he’s
84:48 – 84:53 signaling is I’m running a business here
84:50 – 84:57 and when I run a business I listen to
84:53 – 84:60 the people who basically set the rules
84:57 – 85:03 for my business and the rules for my
84:60 – 85:06 business going forward are censorship
85:03 – 85:08 because that’s the game that is always
85:06 – 85:10 going to be at play it’s only a matter
85:08 – 85:14 of who’s doing the censoring what do you
85:10 – 85:16 think of patreon well like my background
85:14 – 85:19 I’ve been in startups and had them
85:16 – 85:23 acquired and from essentially my space
85:19 – 85:24 on a platform just gets worse
85:23 – 85:26 it happens with Facebook it happen for
85:24 – 85:30 Twitter and and from a commercial
85:26 – 85:32 perspective Etsy and PayPal both kick
85:30 – 85:34 off businesses that they decide or
85:32 – 85:35 unilaterally like an astrologer or
85:34 – 85:37 something that they declare doesn’t
85:35 – 85:40 exist so it’s like you’re always at risk
85:37 – 85:43 in our space whether it’s a podcast or
85:40 – 85:46 whether it’s magic or whatever you want
85:43 – 85:51 how many times do you have to get fucked
85:46 – 85:53 over by Silicon Valley’s eternal just
85:51 – 85:55 nature before you go oh no this time
85:53 – 85:56 it’ll be different this time would be
85:55 – 85:57 great and so I did have a bit of
85:56 – 86:00 experience in like there’s no way this
85:57 – 86:03 ends well because none of them have as
86:00 – 86:05 for the censorship component on a macro
86:03 – 86:07 basis I actually in a funny way I think
86:05 – 86:09 it’s good news
86:07 – 86:13 firstly it is surprising to me that
86:09 – 86:16 people didn’t realize what platforms
86:13 – 86:19 like Google like YouTube and whatever
86:16 – 86:21 actually were and I’ve kind of confused
86:19 – 86:23 it is some sort of public free
86:21 – 86:25 expression when it is a it’s a corporate
86:23 – 86:29 product at back set back ends into DARPA
86:25 – 86:31 right so hold on I mean I think we have
86:29 – 86:34 to make a distinction there because I’m
86:31 – 86:37 with you when you say back into back
86:34 – 86:40 ends into DARPA but in another respect
86:37 – 86:44 it is the public square it is the Fourth
86:40 – 86:47 Estate it is the of our time it is and
86:44 – 86:49 that play could have been made and I
86:47 – 86:51 think that you know that those questions
86:49 – 86:54 will be answered in the courts years
86:51 – 86:57 from now but I look at it they’re surely
86:54 – 87:00 going to lose because you know jack
86:57 – 87:04 conte can’t on one hand say i banned
87:00 – 87:07 this right-wing woman because she was
87:04 – 87:09 endangering our group got together and
87:07 – 87:12 decided i mean as soon as you start
87:09 – 87:14 policing your content in that way then
87:12 – 87:15 you are in the business of
87:14 – 87:17 editorializing and you’re putting
87:15 – 87:19 yourself in a little sure a whole
87:17 – 87:21 different thing so and the whole thing
87:19 – 87:24 with like with alex jones we also have
87:21 – 87:25 up there like alex jones don’t like alex
87:24 – 87:28 jones but i think he is kind of exposed
87:25 – 87:31 himself lately with the trump epstein
87:28 – 87:32 thing which he’s gone a gone way over
87:31 – 87:36 clearly there’s a connection there and
87:32 – 87:39 for him to to allow his buddy Roger
87:36 – 87:41 stone to get on there and say oh you’re
87:39 – 87:44 like a classic digression but Roger
87:41 – 87:47 stone to to get on there and say the
87:44 – 87:50 only time Trump ever saw Epstein is when
87:47 – 87:52 his chauffeur drove him past his house
87:50 – 87:55 and he said oh look he must be heavy
87:52 – 87:57 he must be having a birthday party for
87:55 – 87:59 some young girls look at all the young
87:57 – 88:01 girls at that pool and then he realized
87:59 – 88:04 it was something more so he just drove
88:01 – 88:07 on by I mean this it has gone so over
88:04 – 88:09 the top with Alex that I don’t know that
88:07 – 88:12 we can get him back to where he was
88:09 – 88:15 where he was really I think that true
88:12 – 88:18 truther and was dishing out some truth
88:15 – 88:23 but I digress again because the point is
88:18 – 88:25 you cannot ban someone on every fucking
88:23 – 88:28 platform in a coordinated way on the
88:25 – 88:31 same day and have that not
88:28 – 88:34 that’s clearly collusion and it’s
88:31 – 88:36 clearly obstruction of obstruction of
88:34 – 88:39 trade and he will win in the courts but
88:36 – 88:42 it’s gonna come five or seven years from
88:39 – 88:45 now when no one cares but it isn’t as
88:42 – 88:46 simple as oh those are platforms and
88:45 – 88:48 they can do whatever they want I mean
88:46 – 88:52 that’s something that is gonna have to
88:48 – 88:55 be here well I guess I’m just feeling it
88:52 – 88:57 tactically because my I’ve worked with
88:55 – 88:58 these companies that was my career
88:57 – 89:01 before I did this and like there’s no
88:58 – 89:02 way I would have there’s no way I would
89:01 – 89:04 setup what it is they do in a way that
89:02 – 89:07 is reliant on any of them because again
89:04 – 89:08 it’s Fox and the Scorpion I know how
89:07 – 89:11 they behave and they know how they end
89:08 – 89:13 up so yes there’s absolutely a case and
89:11 – 89:16 here’s the bit that I was kind of I got
89:13 – 89:17 halfway through which is I actually see
89:16 – 89:19 this as good news and I don’t mean the
89:17 – 89:20 banning of people and so and every time
89:19 – 89:22 they do this and you’re noticing and
89:20 – 89:24 especially with Twitter at the moment
89:22 – 89:25 and the whole platform gets worst and
89:24 – 89:28 people don’t want to be there anymore
89:25 – 89:30 every time they do this they make the
89:28 – 89:33 thing that they’re trying to make safe
89:30 – 89:36 or better worse and it just seems like
89:33 – 89:38 everyone’s kind of working that out at
89:36 – 89:39 either looking for a new thing or
89:38 – 89:44 realizing that we do need to pivot
89:39 – 89:45 towards a a more decentralized to
89:44 – 89:47 connect in an analogue way rather than
89:45 – 89:50 everyone hanging out on a platform I
89:47 – 89:52 actually see it as a kind of good news
89:50 – 89:55 that there and it kind of shows him in
89:52 – 89:57 many respects how scared they are or
89:55 – 89:58 aware they are that the kind of
89:57 – 90:01 overarching propaganda is failing
89:58 – 90:04 because propaganda always kind of fails
90:01 – 90:06 before a regime change and you sort of
90:04 – 90:09 get the sense that we’ve got a few years
90:06 – 90:11 left to run if these idiots making it so
90:09 – 90:13 much more awful because they’ve got
90:11 – 90:18 their marching orders from whoever like
90:13 – 90:20 you know wherever they come from they
90:18 – 90:23 just it’s gonna be crap but I actually
90:20 – 90:26 kind of see it as a it’s going to be
90:23 – 90:27 more slightly more difficult and this is
90:26 – 90:31 just how the world works to be on the
90:27 – 90:33 Internet in a satisfactory way but in
90:31 – 90:35 the medium term maybe that’s good like
90:33 – 90:38 maybe we will end up with ways that
90:35 – 90:40 don’t rely wholly on everyone being on a
90:38 – 90:43 platform that is they go DARPA funded
90:40 – 90:47 valence thing right I don’t know I’ve
90:43 – 90:49 been beaten up a bit more yeah no I
90:47 – 90:52 spot-on I really like where you’re going
90:49 – 90:55 and I think again that is being played
90:52 – 90:57 out as we speak because the third meme I
90:55 – 91:00 have up there is you know Joe Rogan’s
90:57 – 91:04 recent interview with Jack Dorsey at
91:00 – 91:08 Twitter and the news out of that is you
91:04 – 91:12 know 10,000 thumbs down on YouTube
91:08 – 91:14 because of Joe Rogan who if anyone who
91:12 – 91:17 doesn’t understand him I don’t want to
91:14 – 91:21 say he’s a show cuz he’s not but I mean
91:17 – 91:24 he’s just a part of that megaphone now
91:21 – 91:27 you know in some way that we don’t
91:24 – 91:30 totally understand and whether he’s
91:27 – 91:32 co-opted or just following the cheese
91:30 – 91:35 that’s laid down through the maze or who
91:32 – 91:35 cares or you know but you know there he
91:35 – 91:38 is
91:35 – 91:41 tossing softball questions to Jack
91:38 – 91:43 Dorsey but to your point it’s thumbs
91:41 – 91:46 down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down
91:43 – 91:48 to where you know he had to apologize to
91:46 – 91:52 his listeners yeah right I’ll do it
91:48 – 91:54 better next time yeah right and or
91:52 – 91:56 YouTube should get rid of that thumbs
91:54 – 91:60 down thing anyway why don’t we just have
91:56 – 92:02 likes we don’t need this likes but to
91:60 – 92:05 your point I think those are the throws
92:02 – 92:08 of a dying fish you know what I mean
92:05 – 92:10 absolutely Netflix is doing it as well I
92:08 – 92:14 mean they actually got rid of the rating
92:10 – 92:17 system because Amy Schumer yeah when her
92:14 – 92:19 okay yeah when her show came out
92:17 – 92:22 whatever it was 18 months ago and it was
92:19 – 92:23 terrible because they had she’d made
92:22 – 92:27 such a big fuss about being paid the
92:23 – 92:29 same amount as forget who and everyone
92:27 – 92:31 found it awful that they did what
92:29 – 92:34 YouTube may well do which is that I will
92:31 – 92:36 remove the negative bit guys this is
92:34 – 92:38 this is not how you it’s almost you
92:36 – 92:39 could always make a medical metaphor but
92:38 – 92:41 you were treating the symptoms here and
92:39 – 92:43 and I don’t think they have the
92:41 – 92:45 awareness to do anything else I don’t
92:43 – 92:47 really watch Alex Jones so I’m not sure
92:45 – 92:51 what he’s up to or any
92:47 – 92:54 I enjoy Alex Jones immensely I have to
92:51 – 92:57 say because he’s an entertainer he is
92:54 – 93:01 directly at this point especially he’s
92:57 – 93:04 completely crossed over the line too
93:01 – 93:06 we really can’t take him anything other
93:04 – 93:09 than and then entertainment and for any
93:06 – 93:13 Oh everything after his apology to James
93:09 – 93:15 elephant is on it was it’s all is
93:13 – 93:17 revealed you know why do we have to
93:15 – 93:19 apologize did James elephant this for
93:17 – 93:22 pizza gate why did we have to do that
93:19 – 93:24 well clearly to me there’s some kind of
93:22 – 93:26 connection with his you know Trump has
93:24 – 93:28 taken that off the table that will not
93:26 – 93:30 be pursued there will not be any
93:28 – 93:32 draining of the swamp and I think the
93:30 – 93:34 orders came down there and that’s the
93:32 – 93:37 thread that I follow with Alex Jones
93:34 – 93:39 that clarifies where that the whole
93:37 – 93:41 thing is gone but uh enough on him I had
93:39 – 93:43 one more topic labs and see if we could
93:41 – 93:46 if we could get there but in a lot of
93:43 – 93:49 ways I think we already have when we
93:46 – 93:52 talked about counterfeited spirituality
93:49 – 93:56 that seems to be strictly looking at
93:52 – 93:59 empirical data the data from the alien
93:56 – 94:01 contact experience mainly the data
93:59 – 94:03 that’s been collected by bond buddy ray
94:01 – 94:05 Hernandez in the free organization
94:03 – 94:08 they’re the only ones who did a real
94:05 – 94:12 scientific study of it including Leo
94:08 – 94:14 sprinkle and other PhD level Harvard PhD
94:12 – 94:15 level people who know how to collect
94:14 – 94:18 that kind of data for whatever it’s
94:15 – 94:20 worth survey empirical data but those
94:18 – 94:22 experiences line up almost perfectly
94:20 – 94:25 with the near-death experience so sure
94:22 – 94:27 what do you do with that data one way to
94:25 – 94:30 interpret that is that these are truly
94:27 – 94:32 spiritual experiences and I’m one person
94:30 – 94:37 who’s pounding the drum over there kind
94:32 – 94:38 of with your demonic trickster kind of
94:37 – 94:42 sensibility that you’re expressing going
94:38 – 94:45 really are we sure it could the
94:42 – 94:47 technology again loosely using the term
94:45 – 94:50 technology be so developed that they can
94:47 – 94:51 counterfeit the spiritual experience and
94:50 – 94:53 I wonder if you have any thoughts
94:51 – 94:56 absolutely like when and I love rayon
94:53 – 94:58 and stuff as well this you know what I’m
94:56 – 94:60 gonna say like so if near-death
94:58 – 95:06 experiences or
94:60 – 95:08 contact and UFO cases have have a lot of
95:06 – 95:10 structural similarities and had
95:08 – 95:12 after-effects in people’s lives yeah
95:10 – 95:14 this is that kind of naive Western idea
95:12 – 95:17 of well then it you know well my my
95:14 – 95:19 granny’s in heaven and and I spoke to an
95:17 – 95:20 alien so this must be good that’s really
95:19 – 95:21 really not even you know what I’m gonna
95:20 – 95:24 say it looks like the spirit world to me
95:21 – 95:26 the spirit world is ambivalent and and
95:24 – 95:29 we just that’s one of the things perhaps
95:26 – 95:31 we could learn by doing comparison a
95:29 – 95:33 little bit better so that we don’t have
95:31 – 95:35 this binary of is it aliens or is it
95:33 – 95:37 ghosts and are they good or are they bad
95:35 – 95:39 there are a better way
95:37 – 95:41 literally objectively better ways of
95:39 – 95:43 coming at this material and and
95:41 – 95:45 understanding that it has some
95:43 – 95:47 ambivalence or it might have one or more
95:45 – 95:49 agendas like that’s that’s how we’ve
95:47 – 95:51 always interacted with as a species
95:49 – 95:53 that’s how we’ve always interacted so
95:51 – 95:55 you have a hundred percent with you and
95:53 – 95:57 that I love race stuff I do think on the
95:55 – 96:01 edges of that you do get people who are
95:57 – 96:04 who are more optimistic about the
96:01 – 96:06 motives for extra dimensional contact
96:04 – 96:09 and I think we should be maybe these are
96:06 – 96:11 business backward Alex you know maybe
96:09 – 96:14 this is something like that but I’m
96:11 – 96:17 generally I want to know why someone is
96:14 – 96:22 nice yeah I want to know why someone is
96:17 – 96:26 being nice yes that that is a business
96:22 – 96:29 value that I can definitely tune into
96:26 – 96:31 you know it’s it’s been awesome we’ve
96:29 – 96:33 spent you an hour and 45 minutes it’s
96:31 – 96:36 flown by Gordon tell folks
96:33 – 96:38 what’s going on with Rhian soup and
96:36 – 96:40 where the hell is the book buddy you
96:38 – 96:43 know yeah gotta be one or two of them
96:40 – 96:46 out there what’s what’s the delay um the
96:43 – 96:47 delay is I’m you know I have about three
96:46 – 96:48 full-time jobs at the moment because
96:47 – 96:50 they have a brand new farm which is a
96:48 – 96:51 full-time job and I have a Premium
96:50 – 96:53 Membership because they don’t use
96:51 – 96:54 patreon for people who like this kind of
96:53 – 96:58 stuff we do quarterly courses the next
96:54 – 97:00 one is on ancestors and contact with the
96:58 – 97:03 dead and so you can do that Edwin suit
97:00 – 97:06 obviously the majority of it is free the
97:03 – 97:07 show the blog and the Facebook page if
97:06 – 97:09 somebody wants to take a course just a
97:07 – 97:12 kind of detail there someone wants to
97:09 – 97:12 take a course how do they pay for it are
97:12 – 97:13 you
97:12 – 97:16 into patreon if they want to do that I
97:13 – 97:17 don’t a picture and you’re like you just
97:16 – 97:19 click on the members section of the
97:17 – 97:22 website and join up it’s the same idea
97:19 – 97:23 like yeah there’s a monthly fee and well
97:22 – 97:25 there’s a monthly membership but it’s
97:23 – 97:27 not just the one course we don’t sell
97:25 – 97:29 them differently we do like the live
97:27 – 97:31 video and people go in holidays together
97:29 – 97:34 and oh all kinds of weird it’s it’s it’s
97:31 – 97:37 a really fun and missing group lunatics
97:34 – 97:41 like me but if you’re meant together
97:37 – 97:43 right you guys do oh yeah and I in fact
97:41 – 97:45 credit the fact that this sixty thousand
97:43 – 97:48 hectare bushfire got 800 meters from the
97:45 – 97:51 farm and no further to the repeated kind
97:48 – 97:53 of intention exercises and and nakshatra
97:51 – 97:55 mantras we did on a big simultaneous
97:53 – 97:58 group basis and it’s it’s been an
97:55 – 98:01 incredible last few weeks and if that
97:58 – 98:04 kind of if you like if you like
98:01 – 98:08 exploring sceptical style content in a
98:04 – 98:10 way that is is embodied I guess that
98:08 – 98:15 might be for you it might not listen to
98:10 – 98:17 the show anyway who are the I have not
98:15 – 98:20 popped over there I’m a member but I
98:17 – 98:22 just haven’t made the leap and I don’t
98:20 – 98:25 know exactly why because I want to poke
98:22 – 98:29 in there I love that idea of embodying
98:25 – 98:32 it in finding like-minded folks who’s
98:29 – 98:34 coming over there give me an idea of the
98:32 – 98:37 of the profile I’m sure it’s a wide
98:34 – 98:39 variety of folks but yeah there’s
98:37 – 98:41 there’s a lot of sort of background and
98:39 – 98:43 interest overlaps magic being the
98:41 – 98:45 principle when is a magic we operate
98:43 – 98:46 people by and large and the course is it
98:45 – 98:47 very specifically because they vote on
98:46 – 98:50 them they’re very specifically about
98:47 – 98:53 magic but we’ll end up doing other ones
98:50 – 98:55 eventually and so with this fascinating
98:53 – 98:58 overlaps with people without their
98:55 – 99:01 permaculture background or philosophy
98:58 – 99:04 the majority of them are in the u.s.
99:01 – 99:07 yeah it’s there they’re amazing and
99:04 – 99:08 their lives they get up to and this is
99:07 – 99:09 one of the things that’s from about our
99:08 – 99:11 little world you meet the most
99:09 – 99:14 remarkable people
99:11 – 99:15 awesome well I really hope people check
99:14 – 99:17 that out and they’re gonna find me over
99:15 – 99:19 there more because I really want to do
99:17 – 99:21 that I think what you’re creating and
99:19 – 99:23 the community that you’re creating is
99:21 – 99:24 super important and talk about embodying
99:23 – 99:26 it in
99:24 – 99:28 here’s a guy that a couple years ago was
99:26 – 99:31 talking I remember when we were talking
99:28 – 99:34 we’re sitting out on the patio near my
99:31 – 99:38 house and you were visualizing what you
99:34 – 99:40 did manifest I mean exactly
99:38 – 99:42 and it was really kind of remarkable to
99:40 – 99:45 see you go through that process so you
99:42 – 99:47 have a nice little apple farm and
99:45 – 99:49 whatever else you’re farming there on
99:47 – 99:53 the edge of the world over looking at
99:49 – 99:55 arctica and you’ve tell people a little
99:53 – 99:57 bit about that project that you’ve that
99:55 – 99:59 you’ve undertaken there because I know a
99:57 – 100:01 lot of people really find that it’s kind
99:59 – 100:06 of the total reframe of the prepper
100:01 – 100:09 thing into a positive lifestyle where I
100:06 – 100:13 want to be regardless of how good or bad
100:09 – 100:15 things get no exactly so I mean I’m a
100:13 – 100:17 permaculture designer and events officer
100:15 – 100:19 for permaculture tasmania we’ve only
100:17 – 100:21 just got here so it’d only been here
100:19 – 100:23 twelve months so it still just looks
100:21 – 100:25 like over grace sheet paddock with a few
100:23 – 100:28 things that we’ve planted right but that
100:25 – 100:32 is the general idea to kind of live you
100:28 – 100:36 know in a way that is experimental in
100:32 – 100:38 the sense of there are permaculture this
100:36 – 100:41 is a whole separate show right it is in
100:38 – 100:43 a really interesting place in terms of
100:41 – 100:45 what it does next and I’m very
100:43 – 100:46 interested in that overlap I know dr.
100:45 – 100:48 hunter is as well and contributing to
100:46 – 100:50 his latest book in that kind of sense so
100:48 – 100:53 yeah we live on five acres in in
100:50 – 100:55 southern Tasmania and beginning a sort
100:53 – 100:55 of permaculture journey which will
100:55 – 100:57 include
100:55 – 100:59 you know on-farm produce and
100:57 – 101:01 accommodation and and all the other
100:59 – 101:02 things and it’s amazing yeah when it’s
101:01 – 101:05 not on fire it’s an amazing place to be
101:02 – 101:08 awesome well it’s been just great
101:05 – 101:09 reconnecting with your own skeptic oh I
101:08 – 101:12 know so many people will appreciate this
101:09 – 101:14 interview Gordon do take care or let’s
101:12 – 101:16 stay in touch and thanks again for
101:14 – 101:18 joining me absolutely thank you for
101:16 – 101:18 having me
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AI stumbles on data analysis but eventually gets it right. Ready for another AI truth..AI Goes Head-to-head With Sam Harris on Free Will |633|
Flat Earth and no free will claims are compared. In Skeptiko 633, we ran another..AI Exposes Truth About NDEs |632|
AI head-to-head with Lex Fridman and Dr. Jeff Long over NDE science. In Skeptiko 632,..Convincing AI |631|
Mark Gober and I use AI to settle a scientific argument about viruses. In Skeptiko..Fake AI Techno-Religion |630|
Tim Garvin’s new book prompts an AI chat about spirituality. Multi-agent reinforcement learning and other..